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Messages - bass

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Incoming 1Ls / Re: Harvard (the it factor)
« on: July 24, 2007, 10:14:13 AM »
Keep in mind that most of the second graduate degrees held by those entering academia were earned prior to going to law school, so the higher percentage of people with secondary degrees at HYSCCN(etc) may have more to do with the admissions decisions of those schools rather than the need for graduates of those schools to have other degrees in order to be desirable in the law-teaching market.

This is fair.

Another factor I've wondered about is whether, if your ugrad credentials aren't elite, YLS is a more difficult place to distinguish yourself.  Even if you can lots of H's and are on YLJ, you probably don't look all that different from many other people.  I suspect, then, that having that ivy ugrad, etc. makes even more of a difference in such cases.  I don't know whether this is true.

Incoming 1Ls / Re: Harvard (the it factor)
« on: July 24, 2007, 08:16:52 AM »
Harvard's numbers do look better to me, mostly on the basis of the "other advanced degree" stat.  But it still seems pretty clear to me that the gap between Yale and Harvard is significantly bigger than the gap between Harvard and Stanford.

I've never had any problem conceding that Chicago is a heavy hitter, perhaps comparable to H and S. 

(On edit: adding CNMVP alongside SChi seems like a real stretch.)

Ultimately, I think that if you get into all three of HYS, you shouldn't decide based on academic placement unless all other things really are equal.  It's not easy to get a prof job, and it's way more important that you enjoy your time at law school.  Maybe faculty strengths should matter, too.  In sum, HLS is the best law school in the country.  QED and all.

Incoming 1Ls / Re: Harvard (the it factor)
« on: July 24, 2007, 07:52:30 AM »
"I just wanted to point out that the accepted knowledge is in fact true on this point."

Accepted by whom?  I don't remember the numbers well enough to recite them, but my understanding after talking to several professors at top schools and many more students is that the real gap amongst the top three is between Yale and Harvard/Stanford.

1) I obviously wasn't using the fact that the knowledge is accepted as a premise.  I've been around for a while: when I say accepted, I just mean "the grouping you hear most often."  There is accepted knowledge that there's a "T14," but it may or may not be fair/accurate/representative of anything to make such a grouping.

2) Leiter and I disagree about the extent to which class size matters, and so he agrees with you.  If you accept my argument about class size, then the data bear out the conclusions pretty well.  I'm not going to find that stat about "total tenured and tenure track faculty" right now, which is probably stronger.

Here are the interesting stats:

2000-2002 Stats:

Total # of Tenure-Track Jobs Secured by Graduates Who Had Not Earned LLMs etc.

1. Harvard University (108)
2. Yale University (104)
3. Stanford University (48)
4. University of Michigan, Ann Arbor (32)
5. University of Chicago (30)
6. University of Virginia (23)

[Leiter's 2000-02 groupings were Y, HS, CM, CBoaltV, etc.]

Total # of Top Jobs Secured by Graduates Who Had Not Earned LLMs etc.

1. Yale University (36) 4 at Yale
2. Harvard University (20) 5 at Harvard
3. Stanford University (-8-) 0 at Stanford
4. University of Virginia (5) 3 at Virginia

Total # of EQR or US News Tier 1 Jobs (whichever is more) Secured by Graduates Who Had Not Earned LLMs etc.

1. Yale University (73)
2. Harvard University (53)
3. Stanford University (26)

2006 Stats:

Yale Law School  92
Harvard Law School  78
Stanford Law School  21
University of Chicago Law School 26 
Columbia Law School  24

[Looking at the numbers, one might be surprised to learn that Leiter's Groupings are Y, HSC, CN etc.]

It's also noteworthy that 71% of the 21 SLS people had other grad degrees (compared to 58% at YLS and 41% at HLS).  This may sound like a good thing, but it's actually indicative of inflated numbers: because other grad degrees are so desirable in the current teaching market, it's not unreasonable to conclude that some of the 21 would not have gotten their jobs on the SLS JD alone.

Incoming 1Ls / Re: HLS Class of 2010!!!
« on: July 23, 2007, 09:02:50 PM »
bass, how did your first year go by the way, I haven't been around much since January.

I did surprisingly well, certainly better than I could have hoped.  My fiancee and I love where we're living; my classmates were fantastic; and the school provided many awesome opportunities (SCOTUS trip, former Solicitor General coming to speak to my section, same for Larry Luchinno...).  I only wish I had been a bit more laid back in the beginning of the first semester.  It's hard to know what to expect.

I look forward to hearing what profs you all have.

Incoming 1Ls / Re: HLS Class of 2010!!!
« on: July 23, 2007, 07:57:20 PM »
So I bought a Yankees suck jeter swollows Tshirt for nothing?  :(

You can wear it.  Hang out around Fenway, and they'll love you.  You won't get any help from me.

Hey thanks for the advice man.  How would you feel about looking over my personal statement?  I have been working on it for about 4 months on and off, going through several different essays.  Several people have proofread it, and I would almost consider it "final".

Hopefully your financial aid bargaining is something I get to experience  8)

I would be willing but not able for a while.  I'd say PM it to me, and I will send you comments when I'm able (which, again, might be a while).

Incoming 1Ls / Re: HLS Class of 2010!!!
« on: July 23, 2007, 05:22:10 PM »
Besides being a Yankees fan, I'm a real Yankee and have never had authentic BBQ. :o  I guess Cambridge would be an appropriate introduction.;)

I, too, am a Yankees fan.  Cambridge=/=Boston.  At least 75% of its population is transplanted, and many don't care about baseball.  I've been ok, but not totally comfortable being a yankees fan.

Incoming 1Ls / Re: HLS Class of 2010!!!
« on: July 23, 2007, 05:21:07 PM »
Cool. I'm going to be living on Harvard St between Dana and Hancock - anything good around there or anyone else in the immediate area?

That's where I'll be living, too!

And speaking of bbq...I think I may have some trouble with the lack of access to authentic NC bbq in the area. Any tips on places that serve even passable imitations, or am I fated to have to load up on it when I'm visiting home? For the record, I love all kinds of bbq, so any decent bbq restaurant recommendations would be appreciated, but I have a particular fondness for vinegar-based deliciousness.

There are a couple of bbq places around, but some of them serve Memphis-style dishes or concoctions otherwise drenched in some thick sauce.  The only names I can remember right off the top of my head are Redbones (in Davis Square) and the Village Smokehouse (or something like that) near Brookline Village.  There is at least once restaurant that serves vingear-based eastern NC-style bbq, but the name escapes me at the moment as I haven't actually been to it yet.  Never fear though!  I cut out a section of the Improper Bostonian (the free magazine you get that tells you what's going on around the city) about two years ago that gives the dibs on 7 or 8 bbq spots around the city.  I'll make you a copy and share the wealth!   :)

No one will ever go there because HLSers are tied to the one mile radius around campus, but Blue Ribbon BBQ in Arlington (up mass ave probably 5 miles) is absolutely fantastic.  They may have other locations.

Incoming 1Ls / Re: HLS Class of 2010!!!
« on: July 23, 2007, 05:20:01 PM »
My boyfriend and I are moving out of here (Texas) July 28th, stopping by Denver and Iowa to see family and expecting to get to our apartment around the 5th or 6th.  However, we're not actually living in Cambridge.  Hopefully I'll be able to find good local food in Watertown.

Oops- fixed now. My mind is just too fixed on August  :-X

You sound exactly like someone from my section this past year.  Watertown is ok.  You have a couple of malls, which aren't fantastic but it's nice they're there.

Incoming 1Ls / Re: Harvard (the it factor)
« on: July 23, 2007, 04:47:14 PM »
I think your numbers are a bit off on the faculty thing.  Last I checked, more current tenured or tenure-track profs come from HLS than from any other school.  Yes, we're larger.  But the size really isn't that relevant for this pool (same for SCOTUS clerks) because the jobs are only available to a small slice at the top in the first place.  SLS (IIRC) isn't really close.

If you want to be an academic, Yale is probably your safest bet.  But no one is in a better position than a student toward the top of the HLS class.

I think class size is more relevant than you think considering that the number of tenured and tenure-track faculty coming from Yale is just below that of HLS (by just a few people), meaning that it is much more difficult to position yourself as a competitive academic applicant from HLS than it would be from YLS with a class size less than half of that at HLS.

Yale is obviously the safest bet, as I mentioned and will not dispute.  All things being equal, go to yale if you want to be an academic. (All things aren't always equal, of course. If you're into cyberlaw stuff, Yale isn't the place to be.)  I just wanted to point out that the accepted knowledge is in fact true on this point.  For academia, it's Yale/Harvard............................SCCNMVP......Rest of T14.

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