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Messages - nmb238

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Visits, Admit Days, and Open Houses / Re: PENN 1L
« on: February 19, 2007, 09:07:33 AM »
WOW i cant believe what I started.

1. When presentd with the choice of saying YES to Columbia post being waitlisted, I chose Penn. Thats not a lie. I didnt feel it necessary to get into the details- have a look at LSN, its the truth. I can NOT tell you how not the type I am to worry what people think of my acceptance record... i have nothing to hide. I apologize if it seemed i was lying aobut my record- i simply wasnt.

2. I never ever ever said CLS was a bad school or less presitigous than Penn. I have no way of knowing that, and i dont think that. I DID say that there is an atmosphere at Penn that is different than CLS' reputation- and i conceded from the start that having never attended CLS i cant really talk with any authority over what its like there. I CAN tell you that I have many friends there, in all three years, and not one of them enjoys it, and all but one of them told me- when i was on the CLS waitlist- that if IM OK with leaving NYC, I should 100% take Harv or Penn over CLS.

3. This is all based on a very very generous legal market. Right now, the firms are hiring in an insane manner from ALL top schools and are paying incredibly well to boot. In a world where getting the $160,000 firm job in NYC was a lil harder, maybe Columbia's 3 ranking points higher of prestige would matter... I dont deny the discrepenacy in Penn and Columbia's prestige factor, ESP in New York where the hiring partners of every firm include a few CLS grads. But in todays market, do I think the CLS folks are getting "better jobs" than the Penn kids? Absolutely not. And I would argue that the atmosphere at Penn makes it easier for certain types- the more laid back types- to do well. Can I prove that? No. But I will agree with LegApp and point to everything said there as good examples.

(though Dean Kobrin is a sweetheart and I hate to see people beating up on her... then again, Gary Clinton is THE MAN...)

4. IF youre choosing between CLS and Penn (pre waitlist, post wait list, whatever) weigh the NYC factor for sure. Weigh the possibility that the law market will CRASH and getting a job will be that much harder such that the B+ from CLS suddenly outweighs the B+ from Penn. Whatever. I can only report that there is a GENUINELY WARMER feeling here than I have experienced elsewhere, the professors are top notch and for the most part down to earth, the building and facilities are great, the students are diverese and 85% non-gunner in any way shape or form... basically what i said at the outset. I didnt mean to offend anyone from CLS, and I thought I made it clear I was only re-spewing the reputations of other schools as reported to me.

(Though the responses from many have at the least confirmed those reputations...)

if anyone has any QUESTIONS about life at Penn please feel free to PM me or keep asking, but im done engaging in a pissing contest over CLS v Penn v the rest. I said from the beginning- to each their own.

Visits, Admit Days, and Open Houses / Re: PENN 1L
« on: February 16, 2007, 08:44:21 AM »
WOW, props to the CLS ppl for representing.

Re: me, my numbers and CLS- i have NO hard feelings. I withdrew from the CLS waitlist after I got into Penn off the hold list, and then got that letter from Columbia thanking me. I then got a call a few days later from CLS Admissions asking me if I was still interested in Columbia, where I was considering attending, and basically offering me admission off the waitlist "if i was interested"... this all happened after I got into Penn and stopped posting here, I told them I withdrew and they apologized for the error. I spent alot of time questioning whether I made the right decision, mostly re: the NY factor, but I am thrilled that I didnt go down the CLS route. I never had such luck from the Harvard waitlist, and was rejected flat out by NYU- if i am bitter about anything, it would be the NYU rejection.

As for 167s getting into Columbia, thats just silly. Plenty do, many more dont. To all the 167s out there- dont let a-hole comments like that deter you. If you impress them elsewhere they might let you squeak your way in...

As for why CLS has such a bad reputation... I dont know? But it does. That is not a load of crap- I mean, I have friends who went there who HATED it, hated every minute of their lives their 1L year and a lil bit their 2L year but just thought that was law school, what can ya do? I was never sure if it was a law school thing or a CLS thing- and while 1L isnt fun anywhere, its def not a miserable experience here at Penn. Thats all I can speak to with any authority bec the CLS folks are right- for every person that I can find who hates it, they can find someone who likes it. But there is a gen  reputation out there, which is a fact, and if someone were to tell me its all bs I could not really argue with it. Im here, not there.

Visits, Admit Days, and Open Houses / Re: PENN 1L
« on: February 15, 2007, 09:07:03 PM »
If you don't mind answering this, how is Penn with Fin aid (both need and merit based)? I'm looking at a free-ride at GW vs Penn and I'm not real sure Penn will offer me anything.

Also, as a New Yorker, how safe do you feel Philly is? I've spoken to people who mention "rape lines" in the bathrooms at UPenn, where women can pull them if they're being attacked...which sounded bizarre. Is the campus relatively safe? I know very little about Philly, but figured it can't be much worse than some parts of Bklyn.

Thanks for being so candid in this thread!

1. Fin Aid- i didnt get any, so I cant talk about this topic with ANY authority. I did choose Penn over $$ from GW though and i dont regret it- I think that I will be able to pay off my loans pretty quickly tho, bec Penn kids get amazing jobs and the market is insanely good right now. :)

2. Philly has some shady areas- West of the law school is ghetto, Center City is very nice. I think NY is a lil bit better in this regard, but not all that much so. But I guess its a consideration. I miss NY subways like crazy and feel way safer on them there than I do here. I know people have been mugged in West Philly and there are some shady apt buildings- but agian, if you stick to CC or the area right around the law school Ive never heard of anyone having an issue.

i can add that Penn had some spring recruitment for 1Ls for the summer, and a ton of the people who interviewed got callbacks and offers, at some pretty nice firms, ie theyre making 30 grand this summer. And alot with very very average grades. Makes me feel very confident for the fall...

Visits, Admit Days, and Open Houses / Re: PENN 1L
« on: February 05, 2007, 11:12:01 AM »
I can tell you that CLS' reputation is, well... Id understand that Penn v NYU or Penn v Harvard is real decision to make- and id prob choose Harvard over Penn just bec of the name- but CLS is just.. i dunno, they seem to make law school more miserable than it has to be. Its insanely competitive even though EVERYONE graduating from CLS (and Harv, and Penn, and NYU) gets great jobs.

its so silly. i miss NY like crazy but im sooo happy not to be at Columbia.

to each their own i guess.

Visits, Admit Days, and Open Houses / Re: PENN 1L
« on: February 05, 2007, 08:13:05 AM »
Well, I'm very interested in all things Penn, so I guess I'd start with a general "how are you liking it so far?" question.  What are the best and worst things you've found about Penn, academically and socially?  How about housing?  How has the 1L job search been going, and what does Penn do to help 1Ls find jobs?

So I guess I like it as much as I can like law school. 1L is just hard, no matter how you slice it, but I cant imagine any place that makes it easier, with no rankings, very few bad grades handed out (you really got to work your ass off to get a C, "prove me you know nothing" as one prof put it before the final last semester) and a generally friendly atmosphere. There are some bad professors, its definitely not fun that Penn stacks 4 hard classes PLUS a legal writing section in your first semester, but again, its impossible to really screw it up. Its such a non-competitive environment. I hear horror stories from Columbia, Chicago, Harvard - and they just would never ever ever happen at Penn.

Housing... theres grad housing. Ive never seen it, it looks pretty crappy from the outside but its very close to the law building. Youll likely want to find an overpriced apt in Center City tho- buses run up and down Chestnut/Walnut all the time so its not bad to get to school. Its friggin cold in Philly tho, lot of wind tunnels. Was not expecting that.

1L job search: they prepare you and prepare you, provide workshops and training for interviews and resumes... but getting a 1L firm job is just hard, esp in NY. I can tell you that lots of ppl got offers before they got their grades- ie the Penn name was enough of a sell. I got an offer from a Fed judge for the summer without so much a single grade. But others who are holding out for firms, are having a hard time. Penn has on campus recruitment for summer 1L jobs with some impressive firms and employers but those results are not in. Well see.

for people interested in public interest law, are they well-supported by penn?  (i don't just mean financially--i mean, is there a supportive program in place?)

Theres a public interest office that works solely on public interest opportunities. They are constantly sending out job opps and summer program info, thye have lunchtime workshops dealing with public interest... i have no idea how this stacks up in comparison with other schools though.

I assume that you had multiple LS admissions offers.  What sold you on Penn?

Can  you speak a bit about the school culture?  Penn's admissions materials seem to really emphasize its commitment to diversity.  What is your perspective as to how welcoming/inclusive the school really is?

What extra-curriculars have you been able to take part in this year?

How are the academics?  Are you stressed/burned out? 

How helpful has Career Services been in helping you with IL summer employment?

Talk a bit about your favorite class/prof so far.


1- I chose Penn over Columbia, Cornell, GW and full ride at Cardozo. I def recommend going to a top 15 school if you can. Youll make the $ back and the job opp (and therefore the level of pressure) is just 10x better. I chose Penn, plain and simple bec of the friendly/non competitive reputation, which has prove itself to be true, and its reputation. Ie i did not want to go to Col bec its supp to be a nightmare, and I did not want to go to GW (even tho ppl love it there) bec its not as well respected by employers. I think Penn offers the best combo there, on par with maybe NYU and Harvard.

2- Diversity- as diverse as anyplace, lots of Penn undergrad and Cornell undergrad, but racially/religiously like anyplace else. Dont come to Penn bec its especially diverse, dont pass it up for not being so.

3- Social culture: like I said, absolutely wondereful. I cant stress how chilled out and relaxed and warm and friendly the atmosphere is here. As good as it gets for law school.

4- Academics- I had a really bad professor last semester, and another who was visiting from a less reputable school who was great but gave an awful confused final. Its not perfect, though the other sections were generally much luckier in terms of that. Im learning alot- its the same textbooks as everywhere else. its the same occasionally dull, occasionally interesting professors as everywhere else. I think the level of intellectual understanding and class discussion is pretty impressive amongst the students, Im learning a ton from my legal writing section... the 1L curriculum is similar everywhere so Im not sure how much I can comment on this- i can say i am loving the two electives I am taking this semester, most schools dont let you take more than one, if any.

5- Heres a Penn complaint: theres a TON of extra curricular stuff but I dont know much about them- i dont feel like theres an organized method of getting that info out there. I know a ton of ppl in clinics and awesome programs, but i dont know how they found them, got involved... the opportunities are abundant but i havent found it easy to get involved.
i also dont have alot of extra time with my legal writing and my 4 classes... anyway the opp is out there but i really think they could make it easier for 1Ls to get involved.

6- Favorite professor was probably my Civpro prof, a Penn tradition of brilliant bitchiness. I also love Prof Johnston who teaches Contracts 1st semester and a bunch of electives. And the IP program at penn is considered one of the best- i love Prof Wagner, who im taking for intro to IP.

Anyway Im not sure how helpful this is... more specific questions, PM me?

I am strongly considering Penn, but I will likely be living off-campus (in Queen Village) should I enroll.  Will this hurt me very much with respect to social opportunities/studying?

I haaate to say this, but I have no idea where Queen Village is.  I mean I think I know Philly somewhat well- but is that a suburb?
In any event, most 1Ls live in Center City, in the grad housing up the block from the law school, or randomly all over University City. The social epicentre is 100% Center City, which is relatively easy to get to from the law school and is full of bars/restaurants/supermarkets... its also expensive.
But your 1L year is going to revolve around the law school, so the answer lies in how you would be getting to/from Penn Law to your house... and while it might be more annoying to get together with friends if youre far away, its not impossible.

Im trying to think what else I wanted to know last year- i think the most important point is that its a really relaxed fun group of ppl... (the admissions office really knows what its doing!) combined with a law school that is well respected enough to place EVERYONE with amazing jobs. Yale places better at big NY firms. But its reputation is... well, a buncha dorks. And Im sure its a lot more fun over at Pepperdine on the beach but they dont place at any firm you could ever imagine like Penn does.

Or, in short- Im happy, doing OK and confident Penn's got my back in terms of career prospets.

keep asking

Visits, Admit Days, and Open Houses / PENN 1L
« on: February 04, 2007, 03:33:51 PM »
Havent been to this site in six months but i remember this being helpful in my pre-law days...

Definitely message/post with any questions.

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Too optimistic?
« on: September 14, 2006, 10:07:49 AM »
i was similar to you- 167 and 3.86 GPA.
i think youd be silly to not apply anywhere- its all very very random once you hit the 166-169 LSAT range, no one is a shoo-in and no one is for sure gon get rejected.

i can tell you that Fordham and BC should be safe bets, but I know of some scary stories (esp at BC) so Id find another acceptable backup. And Id also look at that gap between Columbia/NYU and Fordham- there are 25 schools in there, and if any are right for you id get an app to them asap.

I do wanna caution you that i thought 167 was a nightmare LSAT score bec I could NEVER tell whre i was gon get in- I was rejected at Georgetown and my alma mater, NYU, but I was waitlisted at Columbia and Harvard, accepted at Cornell, Michigan and (now im at) Penn.

so you just dont know and if you can afford it, blanketing the t14 is a good idea. id also recommend gettin your applications in asap, esp at some places like gtown who are big into that sorta thing.

and best of luck !

Incoming 1Ls / Re: The Official "I'm Going to Penn!" Thread
« on: August 28, 2006, 11:30:02 AM »
there you go.

I hear from current students that Prof Wax is not the nicest person in the world, but is fair. Perry is apparently boring and a lil bizarre. The rest remain a mystery. (Both are on, but im just reporting what i heard from current 2Ls).


Incoming 1Ls / Re: The Official "I'm Going to Penn!" Thread
« on: August 28, 2006, 10:58:24 AM »
In other news, am i an idiot? I cant find this seating chart mechanism thing on my goat portal thingie. Prof Wax seems to think this is very imp... ?

Incoming 1Ls / Re: The Official "I'm Going to Penn!" Thread
« on: August 28, 2006, 10:52:24 AM »
I'm in Civ Pro - 004 with Wax. anyone else?

Me too. She seems scary from her faculty bio. No?

Does this mean were in the same section? I got Goodman, Bagchi and Perry for my others. (Perrys a big name, right? Did I make that up?)


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