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Messages - fortook

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Transferring / Re: Cooley with 50% scholarship to MSU with nothing worth it
« on: November 29, 2010, 09:25:40 AM »
Are you saying he should reconsider law school in general because he goes to Cooley?  Wow so harsh even for a religious ranking follower. 

OP- he is right though with the other schools in MI like WSU and Detroit Mercy.  Both are much stronger regionally and your job chances would be better in MI if you transfer.  I don't think its true that Cooley is a joke, but people like Hamilton are everywhere, including MI firms and won't give you a chance coming out of Cooley.  Good luck and stay in school. Hamilton is a deucher for saying what he said  with the only thing he knows about you is that you go to Cooley.  What a deucher.  Your are top 10%, I doubt he is.  And again, wow what a deucher.

Did you get in somewhere?  And if so, did you have to start all over?

Transferring / Re: 505 Letter-dismissed student-Transferring to a new school
« on: September 16, 2010, 08:28:19 PM »
I am in the same boat.  I got several bad grades my second semester and was academically dismissed.  I asked my dean for a 505 letter and as I expected, he said "nope".  They won't help me go to another school.

If you had a decent guy or gal as dean at your former school you may have a shot.  He/she may help you out.  I appealed to his sense of "karma", but as I expected he refused to help me and I knew a 505 letter is not typically given.  There is no obligation to do so and don't bet on it. 

You will probably have to wait the standard 2 years per ABA rules.  Do what I am doing- get a master's in something you enjoy and apply to another school for fall 2012.

In my case I ended up in a lower tier school that dismissed 40% of their 1L class.  Now that I know this, I am saddened that I ended up going there.  I wish I knew better, but that's life- live and learn.  So I am going to take the LSAT again and apply to schools that try to help their classes succeed versus the "weeding out" approach that some law school use to up their bar passage rates. 

There are schools that have attrition rates as high as 40% and school with rates as low as 0%.  I can not stress this enough- pay attention to attrition rates. I simply did not know some of the inner workings and how different some schools can be.  I probably can apply to my former school after 1 year, rather than 2- there were so many people in the 1L and 2L classes there that were on their "second go"- creepy ehe?- should have seen that as red flags after my first week there.  Most schools, I believe, allow for this.  So if you want to deal with your old school again you may only have to wait 1 year.  As for myself, I do not.  Do your research and you can end up alright. 

I have been researching quite a bit on what students do after academic dismissal.  It must happen often.  There are maybe 7 or 8 schools, if not more, that have 30% plus academic attrition rates.  That's hundreds of student per year.  Surprisingly, there is little that I have been able to find.  Or maybe it's not so surprising due to the embarrassment involved.  I did look at the some writings from the author of Dismissed Law Student Essays available for free on line at  They are not very useful to either of us.  The author was dismissed and decided not to go back.  She mostly writes about her emotional state, not practical tangible information.  It is more of a pep talk.  Not a how to. 

If you find something in your own research, please post it.  I will do the same.  Good luck.


Sorry OP.  This is the second time I started an off topic debate.  None of this is helping you.  I didn't mean to start these conversations.  Please forgive me. 

I did have a thought that may help you, however.  Contact the organization: Lawyers Helping Lawyers- they may know if you can go to law school at all and when you could apply.  They deal with lawyers that have substance abuse problems, not admissions issues, but there may be lawyers there that went to law school with a situation similar to yours.   I'm not saying you an addict or being judgmental or condemning (you will have enough of that to deal with- see the hate in the earlier posts) or any of that jazz- just a place you can go get info.  Once again I wish you luck.

I forgot to mention in all this hoop la that I don't think you can attend or even apply to law school while on probation.  Which means you will have to wait three years anyway.  Check this.  I might be wrong, but I don't think so.  Good luck.

Push comes to shove you may look into an non accredited or state bar approved law school.  Of course you will only be able to practice in that state, which sucks I know, but you gotta do what you gotta do.  And depending on the area you live in this might be a doable option. Mass, Bama, Tenn and Cali have the most. Also, the for profit ABA schools, which may not be around too much longer (I hope, for profit education is kinda creepy and parasitic), are notorious for letting in everyone because they want the "business".  You still get a degree though.  :)

Oh and btw OP- Sorry for usurping your thread.  Most of our ranting and bickering isn't' helping you.

Are you getting emotional?  I don't care what your gender is, dosemt matter.  Neither does mine, mam. I'm just saying- think before you act.  Same thing you are saying to people who get DUIs.  Don't ruin someones life over that.  I know a guy who is not homless from a DUI.  He lost his car.  He was a regonal saleman, thus he lost his job.  No job no rent, he lost his apartment.   Last I heard he was homelsss.  Was any of this necessary?  I'm just saying the system hurts peoples lives and doesn't help in many areas.  Is it reasonable the court cares whether or not Lindsey Lohan drinks in her home, for example.  I argue no, of course not.

Why must I have a DUI?  Because I advocate a loosening of the law.  I don't think anyone should go to prison for decades for dealing drugs either.  Doesn't make me a drug dealer (loaded term), does it?.  I'm not saying driving while drinking is a good thing, just we as a society have way over reacted and are hurting people because of it, that's all.  Like we did recently with tobacco or like we did with MacArthur communist hunt. I just think we should think and consider before we hurt anyone.  Not just hurt quickly act on emotion, with no consideration- which is happening now. 

Horribly against DUIs to the point of insanity? Are you honestly serious? Do you have children? Would you prefer that the people who can't handle drinking and driving, if you want to be even that open to "DUIs are ok in some conditions," be more able to get on the road and drive like cocky, confident morons? I agree that perhaps the BAL limit should be raised, but you're assuming people can be responsible and make good decisions about their abilities when they're drunk. Obviously, as our friend the original poster proved, you can't. Otherwise he wouldn't have gotten caught because he wouldn't have made stupid mistakes. It takes a second of lost attention to cause an accident and I'm for limiting it all from the roadway: teens, drunks, and older people who have lost motor function/eyesight.

I have had friends who have driven drunk and they drive fast and dent/crash cars and don't equate it to their intoxication.People are bad drivers already- why give morons a new edge?

Exactly what I am talking about.  Riddled with assumption and condemnation.  You assume too much, sir.  Way too much.  Working parents and just ordinary joes are often the victims of harsh DUI law.  And not that it matters any more than the rest of the condemning assumptions, but yes I have a daughter.

OP- this the type of attitude you will have to overcome to get into law school.  Good luck.  And I hope you can rise above it.

Ha. Nicely put.  And all true.  My general issue is with intensity.  Until recently no one would have ever been arrested for drinking too much, the Greeks probably would have regarded that as pointless and an outrageous waste of resources, but we do it every day.  I have heard elected officials and organization leaders vilify DUI with arguable reckless abandon.  For instance, MADD- the driving force, inflates their stats by as much as one third.  They don't seem to care if  they are lying as long as their agenda is pushed.  And they are succeeding.  Should we as a society really ruin someone's life with a DUI- and it does happen, people loose their jobs, their homes, their employment future- it is a matter of proportionality.  Most jurisdictions are way over reacting due to these efforts.   

I suppose my real issue with DUI law and others is how we use the law.  Basically, it is an infrastructural problem, not a legal problem.  If you live in a town with no buses, no public transportation and no cabs past 10 PM and 20 bars, what are all these people supposed to do?  Remember you can be guilty of a DUI if you have 3 beers and drive home.  Seem reckless and excessive to you?

I am not sure, but the three times is the killer.

Honestly how dumb can you be? I know your looking for advice, but really, three times? Thats just dumb and I hope you get clean, and I really wish you luck, but do you understand you could have killed somebody? Do you even care? I would say no matter how you respond, you don't, because you have done it AT LEAST two more times (probably alot more). This is just a huge problem with me. So after the rant, I will answer your question.

There is character that comes into play, and frankly three DUIs is probably going to be a major problem getting admitted into the bar, and most schools will look at that as a huge negative when deciding admissions. You could argue that one DUI is a mistake, but three, thats just bad character and horrifically selfish.

I would say you will have a very very difficult time getting into law school, but with very good numbers, you may be able to find some schools to take you. Though I would check with the bar assosisation to see if you would qualify to be admitted before you spend the money on law school.

And the MIP, not that it would usually be a problem, but I am sensing a pattern here.

Your rant now mine.  It amazes me how fast DUI perceptions can change,  As part of my job I recently had to summarize new changes to DUI law in my state.  I started reading media reports and wow- The public at large is horribly against DUI to the point of insanity.  You used the word "could have"a lot- that should tell you something.  There is no criminal intent with DUIs, its kind of a crime by default or social necessity.  Unlike robbery or fraud, ect.  The new MADD induced media perceptions of DUI reminds me of the truth campaign with tobacco.  Propaganda is an amazingly strong and effective force, true or not. Lies can rule perception and opinion.  As long as you did not hurt anyone the "could haves" are irrelevant.  Oh and fortunaly for you and not our children there is a generational gap.  Many of the admissions people are in there 40s and 50s and formed opinions before the MADD media propaganda onslaught.  You might be okay.

Now for what might actually help you:  I knew a guy in law school who had a rap sheet 22 pages long.  Mostly dismissed arrests, but he did have 2 DUIs and 1 underage consumption conviction that I am aware of (he thought it was funny-I liked the guy).  So it is possible.  He is as smart as hell, though.  I don't know what his LSAT was, but I bet it was pretty good.  Also, volunteer religiously or do something that shows the admissions committee you are passionate and dedicated.  And first and foremost don't get any more DUI arrests or alcohol related issues.  Good luck.  And don't pay attention to the people that try to put you down for this.  DUIs are waaay too common (as high as 1/3 of the population in some areas has a DUI), especially in states without good public transportation, and especially in places like the bible belt where there is a social condemnation.

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