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Messages - Cicero

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Forgot to add this, but it could be another factor in the decision:

If there is a specific legal field that he wants to pursue, he could consult attorneys practicing that specialty about which school is the best for him to attend--which grads they are more likely to hire and which school will make him the best prepared. Or if there is a specific geographic area, he could talk to lawyers in that area.

(Note that both bigs and I are not practicing attorneys in FL. Both of us just finished our first year. Take our advice with a grain of salt.)

Yes, it looks like Miami moved from 71 to 60 for the 2011 rankings. That makes it a high T-2 (schools ranked 51-100). It may indicate an upward trend with the school that has been going on for awhile. (Or this school may move back and forth through the rankings. Like Stetson for example, which used to be T-2 a couple years ago and is now T-3.) However, UF and FSU are much cheaper (half the price of Miami) and are more respected in FL. I'm not sure where your son wants to practice when he graduates, but the schools with the biggest clout where he wants to work would open the most doors. However, there is also the factor of where your son feels like he would best be able to spend 3 very stressful/intense study packed years (in terms of the feel of the school and a little bit about the area). If he feels like Stetson is the best for him or Miami, then that is an important consideration. Of course, there are a number of other factors to consider beyond these discussed that may influence the choice.

While the rankings are questionable, they are also important in terms of which schools fall into the breakdowns of T-1, T-2, T-3, and T-4. It is much harder for grads of T-3/4 schools to find jobs after graduation and will likely limit what types of jobs they can get. Maybe rank shouldn't matter, but it does.

I just saw your comment about him not being able to get into FSU or UF. They are very hard to get into. From my own experience, I didn't make it into FSU for my 1L year, but I have been accepted to transfer to it for 2L. I wouldn't recommend this route for others because it is based on 1L rank, which can't really be predicted prior to entering LS. If your son can get into Miami, but not FSU or UF, it is the next best in the state. After Miami is Stetson. Stetson, while now T-3, is much more respected than the T-4s in FL.

General Board / Re: Interesting
« on: June 26, 2010, 12:24:26 AM »
Yeah, it seems like there are similarities between dealing coke and fraud, but also distinct differences. A coke dealer would be more like a general salesman, whereas many people who commit fraud would be in a position more like a lawyer. As a lawyer, you would have a fiduciary relationship with your client, and those committing fraud are often able to commit the act by taking advantage of the relationship they have with the "mark". The coke dealer by contrast often doesn't even know the person he/she is selling to (or at least not very well), and there is less trust and connection needed for the transaction. So, theoretically, the coke dealer and the person that commits fraud are quite different.

(Note: Yes, Theo, I know you will likely say that one can commit fraud without knowing the person, such as credit card fraud, but it is still taking advantage of a person at a very different level from dealing coke because it is still an intrusion into another person's confidential matters.)

You can probably get a better feel for that info if you check out People put in their GPA & LSAT score and what schools they applied, and then as acceptances/rejections/WL come in they put in that info, and they list the scholarships they get. So, that site should give you a good idea of what your chances are and what kind of scholarship you might expect.

Harvard U / Re: Pass/Fail
« on: June 25, 2010, 01:50:16 PM »
Not worrying about having to beat all of your classmates to make an A or not even having to take a final sounds really nice. I think it would allow driven students to work in an atmosphere with less stress and fear, and focus more on what they are learning. On the other hand, I do see the potential for students taking advantage of the system. However, I would think that almost all of the students at HLS and YLS  would fall into the former category, especially if they desire to become a judge, a professor, a partner at a big law firm, etc. Those in the latter category would be quickly found out and denied these positions. I'm also thinking that there may be student pressure and general pride that would push students who might at first fall into the second category to fall in line and become part of the first.

Looking at rankings of these schools and cost, I would think UF (T-1)and FSU (almost T-1) would be a much better option than Miami or Stetson if your son can get into them. If there is a particular class (or classes) that Stetson offers that cannot be matched at UF or FSU, then your son could look into going to those schools and taking a semester or 2 at Stetson. Law Schools often let a student do that.

I don't know whether you should stay or wait; that's really just something you will have to decide. As to whether work experience will help, I doubt it will make much of a difference. Schools seem to care almost exclusively about your GPA & LSAT score. If there is a particular school that you want to attend, other than these 2, you could call the admissions office and inquire about their acceptance formula and whether a year of work would help you gain acceptance. Another thing you could do is talk to the career services departments at Duquesne & Widener about some of your questions and concerns regarding employment after graduation. I can't tell you first hand how the job market is for lawyers at this time (I just finished 1L), but based on friends and accounts of others, it seems to be really rough right now. No one can tell you that you will definitely have a job when you graduate. On a side note about financial aid, there are some things you can do to deal with the debt if you have trouble finding a job after law school. If you work for 10 yrs in a public service position, which even includes teaching, and you pay your portion of it over that time, then the government will forgive your loans. Another thing that seems to be more popular these days is paying back your loans based on your income, rather than the traditional minimum payment. This might be a good idea, if for example you have a job at Barnes & Noble for a year while trying to find a job. So, there are some things you can do if you cannot find a legal job or a corporate job immediately. Like I said, you should contact career services, and probably the financial aid department, and they can probably give you more options and more information to help you make your decision.

Law School Applications / Re: in-state tuition?
« on: June 21, 2010, 11:32:25 PM »
Ugh, there is no point in this. You either don't get the point or choose not to get it. Let's rewind and go back through this 1 more time.

This is what you said: "Hell, even in civil procedere they tell you that if you want to take your next door neighbor to federal court on diversity you can laugh your way across state lines and sue the next day for that even though that is the only reason you moved and that very day."

Then I said you needed an intent to stay beyond just getting a home/apartment there.

Then you told me you didn't need an intent to stay and said there was case precedent showing that you didn't need it.

I asked you what precedent, and you described a case and basically said it required an intent to stay.

So, I said you proved my point.

Did you originally say the same thing I did? No. Did you eventually? Yes.

I'm done with this argument. I attempted to discuss this with you in a reasonable manner without the insults you feel are justified in this sort of forum. If this is how you handle discussion in the classroom, then I am glad that we don't attend the same school. We should be able to discuss things that we don't agree upon in a civilized manner, rather than resorting in juvenile name calling and rudeness.

Law School Applications / Re: in-state tuition?
« on: June 21, 2010, 08:31:01 PM »
Residancy is based on where you live at time of filing. That is the caveat. Look it up. It dosnt matter if it is one day or one year. It dosn't matter what reason you moved, even if you admitt outloud it was for the suit only. You just can't "plan" to move out of that state anytime soon. If you do move though, no big deal(unless you intended to do so in advance) since Americans can move where ever they want whenever they want.

Yes, this means "intent to remain". Good job at proving my point. Thanks for the insults. (Residency for time of filing = domicile, and the new version of the Fed Rules is going to specifically say that. Domicile = 1. residence & 2. intent to remain. Yes, residency for what we are talking about is diff from residency for tuition purposes.) I think perhaps you did not get the point in class. Yes, you can move wherever you want, but there are still requirements for filing a diversity case.

Law School Applications / Re: in-state tuition?
« on: June 21, 2010, 03:56:28 PM »
Supreme court or or circuit specific? We never covered any case saying you could just  make up diversity completely. We did cover precedent to help prevent people from destroying diversity through collusive practices and allowing party realignment. And no, I never missed a day in Civ Pro. In fact, I did really well in it. If there is a case allowing people to just make up diversity, we never covered that one.

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