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Messages - Cher1300

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Job Search / Re: For all those who cry about our jobs stats......
« on: August 28, 2012, 12:49:29 PM »
What is personal litigation?  Does that mean non-business litigation.  Couldn't you just say, "Litigation"

Anyway, I'm glad this thread was resurrected.  I remember reading it a while back.

Cher1300, if you are reading this, sorry to be sassy:
1) What type of work experience do they need?  What if they move bricks for a living or work at the school library?  I worked my way through school, and I learned a lot.  But I don't think you need to work through school to know how to handle stress and show up on time.  Additionally, work ethic changes depending on the job.  A salesman who makes commission by selling mortgage products might have to go to luncheon's and play golf a lot and he has to be self-driven and commit to the sale.  A grocery store clerk basically just has to work at a high level and stay put.  Those are two wildly different skill sets.

2) The second paragraph of points you make sounds like someone who only likes to manage one type of person.  Maybe a college student who was involved in several campus activities and frats and partied all the time will actually have a wildly different skill set than someone who worked the window at the movie theater.   Your post implies (not insinuates, since that's different) that you want to hire drones. 

Also, a 3.0 and a 4.0 are miles apart, Duncanjp.  At most state universities, a 3.0 in a liberal arts degree doesn't require hardly any effort.  Maybe some 4.0's aren't "that" impressive, but a true 4.0 shows dedication.    That said, a 3.6 and holding down a job is pretty dang impressive. A 3.0 and holding down a job shows you have the skills of a highly functioning primate, at least.

ANY type of work experience.  My point wasn't so much that they have to have a crappy job to get hired.  My point was that the college students entering the work force these days have NO work experience, won't do an entry level job, and complain that they can't get a job.  I went to college too.  I worked, did activities, and still had time to party.  Campus activities are pretty easy - at least the ones I was involved in.   So was partying.  Most people do campus activities and go to parties they enjoy.  Going to work and dealing with a difficult public or difficult coworkers or boss isn't always enjoyable.   Maybe you haven't had to deal with that on your job, but I found work to be very different than academia, parties, and activities.   Of course you need different skill sets.  Most of the sales people I work with that do those lunches or golf outings, however, are working their @$% off to meet a quota and get the sale even if that means working nights and/or weekends.

The kids coming out of college now are very bright and probably much smarter than my generation.  However, they are having a difficult time making it in the work force and I believe it has more to do with an unwillingness to do an entry level job than the recession.  They are competing with others who will do those jobs and don't care if they have to do it.  Entry level positions and admin positions can turn into management or higher level jobs.   So when someone complains that they aren't making 40K right out of college with no work experience when they've had opportunities for entry level positions, it's hard to feel sorry for them.
Lastly, Im curious as to why you think my second paragraph implies that I hire drones.  Is it because you think working at Burger King while going to college makes a person a drone?  It implies the exact opposite to me, but may explain why high school and college kids won't do those jobs.  Perceptions vary widely. 

Over the years, many employers - including a DA that recently spoke at our school - mentioned that working in the food industry was a plus on a resume when someone didn't have a great deal of experience.  They explained that those jobs dealt with a high amount of stress and involved a great deal of interaction with the public.  Does every employer feel this way?  Probably not.  Does this job require an education?  No.  But it does require a skill set that an employer may be looking for.

Honestly, what these kids do or don't do isn't going to hurt me in the long run, so what do I care really?  It's just some issues I've noticed over the years.  My main point was that you have to start somewhere - even if it is as a drone at BK.

Law Firms / Re: Interview Questions
« on: August 27, 2012, 06:25:38 PM »
As someone who runs a department and conducted my fair share of interviews over the last several years, I'd have to say that interview question is much more of a "goal" oriented question, which really could be anything you hope to accomplish as a lawyer.  Of course, our main goal is to have a job, but add something like you want to be published in a law journal, or the managing partner of a small firm, etc. 

Try to make the goal match where you are being interviewed so you don't tell the medical malpractice lawyer that you see yourself fighting crime with the District Attorney's office in five years.   Sounds like common sense, but you'd be surprised as to the many interview mistakes people make without even realizing it.   

So just evaluate some of your goals as an attorney, and add them to your five-year plan.  You should also do some practice interviews with a friend.  It might sound a bit overboard, but jobs are very competitive.  So when you actually get an interview, you want to make sure you get the job.  If it's a temporary job, tie in the work as a stepping stone for your goal, etc.  Hope that helps.   

News Discussion / Re: The Atlantic Calls for a Way to "Fix Law Schools"
« on: August 27, 2012, 06:08:02 PM »
Can you provide a link to the article?

Law School Applications / Re: CHANCE ME
« on: August 24, 2012, 02:32:46 PM »
You have a decent shot at Mid-Atlantic School of Law.


Minority Topics / Re: Disgusted and Depressed
« on: August 24, 2012, 02:32:03 PM »
Have you thought about taking a prep class such as Test Masters or Kaplan?  It costs a bit of monty, but might be worth it for you.  If not, there are many other study aids and books out there.  Don't be too hard on yourself - two months is not that long.  Most people will tell you that a good 6 months is the minimum required to get a handle on the test.  Keep going - it should get better.

General Off-Topic Board / Re: The Sunk Cost Fallacy: Help me!
« on: August 23, 2012, 10:58:28 PM »
I don't know where you live, but in my area, the LA County Bar Association has numerous networking events for attorneys in their specific practices throughout the city.  If there is anything similar in your area, that may be a place to start to build additional contacts in real estate.

Distance Education Law Schools / Re: Mid-Atlantic School of Law
« on: August 22, 2012, 06:18:39 PM »
Tuoro law school does say, however, that graduates from other law schools may take non-matriculating courses that "may" qualify them to sit for the bar exam.  They also said acceptance is very selective. 

Distance Education Law Schools / Re: Mid-Atlantic School of Law
« on: August 22, 2012, 02:21:32 PM »
I have to agree about being cuatious with this one.  A google search of the phone number shows a link to a few different businesses including a fax number belonging to a chiropractor in NC.

Distance Education Law Schools / Re: Mid-Atlantic School of Law
« on: August 22, 2012, 01:07:29 PM »
At least one measure of the legitimacy of a JD is whether it qualifies the degree holder to take the bar exam. As far as I can tell, the MASL JD, by itself, does not permit the holder to take any state's bar exam, with the possible exception of California (and I'm not even sure about that, since they're not registered with the state bar). How can that possibly qualify as a legitimate JD?

Personally, I don't think operations such as MASL should be allowed to claim that they grant JDs. I think it misleads the public, who assumes that the holder has completed a standard, rigorous legal education. I think the same should apply for B.A./M.A./Ph.Ds. 

I looked at the website and compared it to other online programs like Taft and Concord and MASL is not even registered with the DETC (Distance Education and Training Council) in addition to not being registered with any state bar.  I'm not exactly sure how rule 46 works in DC, but will someone who completed a legal education through MASL even be accepted to an ABA approved-program for the 26 units required for the bar?  Wouldn't they have to go to an ABA law school for those credits?  I tried to google search ABA 26 unit schools, but couldn't find anything. 

A quick look at the calbar website indicates that not one person from this school has taken the California Bar Exam in the last five years even though their website states that California is one of the states in which they can take the bar.  Yet every other correspondence or distance learning school is listed on that site even if only one person per school sat for the bar.
There is also no alumni section or information on any of their graduates, which seems a bit odd.  I only found one student in his third year that was working in VA under an attorney, and said he still needed to complete his 26 units, but doesn't say which school he was going to attend or which state he was going to take the bar.  Anyway, I've heard of a few schools like this, but does anyone know which ABA schools admit these students?    Are they only in DC maybe?


You're right about Prof. Dellinger's class, which why most 1Ls are so stressed during their first year at Western State.  Most students in every class, not just Prof. Dellinger's, do not receive a foundation point which is why the attrition rate is so high.  Western State actually has "double attrition," meaning that students get dismissed after their first year for not having >2.0 and then even more students are dismissed after their third semester, midway through law school, for not receiving the required amount of "foundation points."  The latter being the category that I fall in.  I believe that the ABA only reports attrition rates of students after the first year, but I'm not 100% sure about that one.

Oh, I absolutely do not want to get back into Western State's law program, even though I believe I would do much better.  Western State does not care about their students.  All they care about is keeping their ABA accreditation because they're unranked.  Instead of changing teaching methods so students are better prepared for the bar, they punish their own students by dismissing so many of them.  I wish I knew what I know now about Western State before I enrolled.  Attrition rates never really crossed my mind before I started at Western State.  I would never recommend to a prospective law student that he/she go to Western State.

As far as what I have changed that will cause me to have a different result, I'll explain my success in a paralegal program and, if I can find a paralegal job, how working in the legal field has motivated me to do much better the second time around.  My lack of focus at Western State, also having to take care my elder parents, played a role and I'll attempt to show to an admissions committee that between the time of my dismissal and the time of my admissions application that I am much more focused and am more motivated to do well in any law program.  I plan on retaking the LSAT and obviously studying much harder and smarter to increase my score as much as I can.  I'll still only apply to law schools in California but definitely not Western State, nor Whittier because I know people there who told me that their attrition is also high.  I was recently dismissed so I still have a little less than two years to "rehab" myself so that I can get into a better law program.

Any other ideas on what I should do? Constructive criticism is always appreciated.

This is certainly an issue that many of us at WSU worry about.  It's not only that you need these 4 foundation points (for part-timers it's 4 in two years), but you need a total of eight before you can receive your juris doctorate.  If this becomes an issue for me, I'm going to transfer out to a CBE school if I cannot transfer to another ABA.  From what I understand from a former WSU student who transferred to West LA law school, she said there are many students there who were dismissed for not getting their foundation points that were able to transfer their class credits where they earned a 2.0 or better.  Just something for you to consider if you plan on practicing only in California.  Most CBE's should realize that being dismissed for not having a certain amount of 2.5's is different than being academically dismissed for failure to keep your cum. gpa above a 2.0.

BTW, in my first semester with Delinger, half the class failed the midterm.  However, most were able to comeback and pass the class.  The problem with WSU is that no one knows about the foundation point system until they start school.   Since this is a system that has gone on for at least a couple of years and the ABA just came to evaluate the classes this past semester, I"m not sure it's even an issue for them. 

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