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Messages - john4040
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« on: April 25, 2012, 03:59:13 AM »
But, with the advent of the ABA, law schools have become way over priced forcing people to seek financial assistance
I really don't think the ABA has much to do with the cost of tuition. Non-ABA schools are often just as expensive as ABA schools. I think it has more to do with prospective students being able to get easy money from the government. A secondary driver of tuition costs is probably the USNWR rankings.
« on: April 24, 2012, 01:22:30 PM »
I do avoid those people who believe they are better than those who did not go to the schools they did or anything else they feel justified to place themselves on a pedestal above someone else. For those people, they will never really be happy with themselves because some “Jones” will always have something they don’t and will feel they don’t measure up – “since I feel substandard, I’ll make others feel substandard so I can feel better about myself” (deflection psychology). What happen to judging someone on their worth & actions?? Or, character doesn’t really matter anymore – how sad? If that is what I have to face working in another firm, than no, I will avoid those kinds of conceited, self-absorbed, narrow-minded folks and challenge them from my small personable solo practice representing the common underdogs of our fine country as I have for my entire adult life. . . . If I choose to attend a nontraditional law school, knowing full well of the imposed limitations now in place by some sort of self-appointed political body that was irrelevant less than 100 years ago, and can make my way in it, who’s place is it to judge what or how I do it? That’s what attracts me to California’s Bar – giving everyone a chance to pursue their own dreams their own way, but setting the standards of conduct to weed out those who follow the dark side or fails to meet minimum standards of competency. Some will agree with I present, others will not; again, what one chooses to exercise is a personal choice.
Let me first address the red text above, because I believe it's pertinent to my answer below. You're betting that you can pass the bar and make a life as an attorney. If you're going to an online school or even most T3s and T4s, statistics show you're wrong. This fact underscores the response below:
I don't have a problem with people chasing their dreams - as long as they take responsibility for their actions and and pay their debts in a timely manner. However, when those graduates start using government money to chase rainbows and start asking for a direct bailout (or increasingly use IBR or the other various government bailout programs), I believe that the tax payers that will end up sholdering the rainbow chasers (i.e., burdens on society) have the right to hold those folks accountable for the poor decisions that they made. If you're going to school with your own funds or on a scholarship then, by all means, go. If you're chasing rainbows, have little shot at actually becoming an attorney, and want to borrow from the government, then you don't deserve the money. The government shouldn't dole out money to encourage losing propositions. Yet, time after time, we give money to those with less than a 25% shot at "making it", we don't question their wisdom, we can make a quick, relatively accurate determination of whether they will be able to pay their debts simply by knowing the school they wish to attend (but we don't), and we allow them to become burdens on society. As a result, you're increasingly seeing more "basement dwellers" - i.e., those 30 year olds who have made poor decisions and are debt-slaves. I suspect that you can count on seeing more and more of those as the cost of tuition increases (as a result of an overabundance of federal cashing being doled out without scrutiny), the demand for labor decreases, and as more individuals are repeatedly told that they are special little snowflakes that deserve a chance to chase rainbows. Our education system is quickly becoming the joke of the world. It's really as simple as that.
Further, barriers to entry must be erected as lawyers are members of a profession
. As a professional, you will have direct access to client money and will be placed in a position to, essentially, "speak" on behalf of your clients. Because attorneys are, by nature, in a position to be trusted by their clients, they owe fiduciary duties to their clients. Thus, a different, arguably stricter, standard of behavior than the comparable tortious duty of care at common law applies to attorney conduct. As a result, we simply can't afford to let anyone and everyone into the profession. Not everyone has the capacity to act ethically or competently. Like bar exams, ABA accreditation standards act as a baseline hurdle to protect the public from students being taught by diploma mills. Indeed, denial of ABA accreditation is recognition that the education you received does not even meet minimum standards and should not be valued.
« on: April 23, 2012, 10:08:34 PM »
Mr. T-1 will miss all the fun in representing SSI cases and doing public defense and instead will be working mind numbing hours doing dumb ass document reviews. I pity the fool.
Or, the T-1 grad clerks for a federal court, goes to a mid-sized firm, argues a MTD worth $500,000 his first week there, wins said MTD against overzealous TTTT, decides he wants to clerk at a prestigious foreign tribunal, applies and gets accepted to prestigious foreign tribunal.
None of those options would have been available had I graduated from an online law school. I'd rather have more doors open to me at the begining of my career than to be stuck litigating SSI cases and DUI defense and have to constantly prove myself to others.
« on: April 23, 2012, 09:53:46 PM »
Why "concede?" That's what I'm calling "... lame, subjective, and unsupported ..." It only encourages narrow minded people to believe they have some sort of plausible argument. The other guy's argument shouldn't even be considered as having any sort of merit.
*Thinks he is a "ruthless pitbull in the courtroom" who will never back down*
*Furiously writes 2/3 of reply to Motion for Summary Judment on minor point that should be conceded*
*Wonders why judge just dismissed his personal injury case on summary judgment*
« on: April 23, 2012, 03:46:30 PM »
Based on your referred link, out of 102 people who responded, 90 wanted to become attorneys, 70 passed the bar, and 55 went on to practice law. So, there you have you’re 15, at least.
Passing the bar is not success. The bar tests basic legal competence.
Practicing law is not success. Many solo attorneys are out there losing their ass and have to take on second jobs just to make ends meet.
P.S. - It's "your", not "you're".
« on: April 23, 2012, 03:40:47 PM »
I appreciate the homework assignment, but I'll have to decline the invitation.
You're right, to an extent. But, again, you're operating under a very narrow view of what success is, or should be. Not everyone wants to work at a v100 firm, or be a federal judge, diplomat, or CEO/Lead Counsel @ Fortune 500.
It seems that your definition of success is largely equated with money, prestige, or a combination of both. Of course, everyone needs to make money, but the making of it isn't everyone's chief concern. Now granted, money is the chief concern of most want-to-be attorneys. Most 1Ls have dollar signs in their eyes, even though many will never see more than $80,000-$90,000 a year at the height of their legal careers--if they're lucky enough to earn that much.
But some folks pursue legal careers because they truly want to make a difference in their community, albeit small and hugely unprofitable. To say that, for instance, someone who devotes an entire legal career to helping want-to-be parents navigate the confusing and complex landscape of child adoption, but fails to ascend into the upper-middle class, is unsuccessful is incredibly shortsighted. Lawyering was once viewed as a helping profession, first and foremost. To my mind, a lawyer who still understands and lives by this notion is a success, irrespective of the number of digits in her bank account.
That's fine an dandy, but look at the stats again. About 90% want to become attorneys. About 25% actually practice in the legal field. Most of these folks won't even be able to pursue a legal career. I suppose there's always room for another successful barrista!
« on: April 23, 2012, 02:28:40 PM »
Yep. Just like one can be "successful" if they win the Special Olympics.
I agree, it was a bit extreme. But, sometimes, that's what you need to get people to understand that they shouldn't go to law school. The admission requirements for Tier 2 schools aren't exactly stringent. Retake the LSAT if you believe you don't belong in a T3 or T4. Stop feeding the law school bubble and don't ask for a bailout when you can't repay your loans.
I challenge anyone on this board to name 15 successful grads (v100 firm, federal judges, diplomats, CEO/Lead Counsel @ Fortune 500, etc.) from each one of these schools.
Oh, and if you're interested in seeing what the top 47.4% of Taft Law School grads were up to in 2002, before the market crash, here you go:http://www.taftu.edu/tls/surveyresults.htm
Funny that 89.2% went to Taft to become attorneys, but only 54.1% of the 47.4% that answered are actually practicing law.
I know a paralegal that was enrolled in one of these online scam schools. Her mind was ABSOLUTELY BLOWN when she discovered that she could never be eligible to practice law in her home state and that the only place she could take the bar was California.
« on: April 23, 2012, 12:48:41 PM »
And those that have & are successful???
(1) It depends how you measure success. The way I define it, they're somewhat rare;
(2) Generally, your chances of being successful significantly decline with each jump in tier.
« on: April 23, 2012, 03:36:56 AM »
This thread is fcking stupid.
Do not attend either of these schools!
If you couldn't crack the second tier, you have absolutely no business practicing law. You have been warned.
« on: April 17, 2012, 02:49:36 AM »
Don't go to either. You can thank me later.
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