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Messages - john4040

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Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Cooley vs Capital
« on: May 09, 2012, 09:56:36 PM »
so according to those stats Cooleys total unemployment stats are LOWER than several of the other law schools? (some look dang near double)

Yes.  I'm not sure anyone here was arguing otherwise.

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Cooley vs Capital
« on: May 09, 2012, 02:02:05 PM »
Again who knows what the answer is, but if look at the "numbers" provided by Holmes in a prior link Drake & Tulsa place better than Northwestern or Boalt. In reality you can find numbers to favor anything and 60% of the time that is true everytime.    :)

Not sure where these stats came from, but I have two points to make with respect to them.  First, it seems as though it's purporting to show "LT employment" - (whatever that is - guessing "long term employment"?).  My bet is that it would include working at McDonald's and Starbucks.  If that's the case, it is altogether likely that a greater percentage of Drake and Tulsa graduates are employed than Northwestern or Boalt graduates.  Second, as with just about everything in life, there will always be a few outliers.  However, that doesn't refute my statement that, on the whole, the further down you go in the rankings, the worse the job prospects.

You can't argue that there are people from every single ABA school that have found jobs.

Trust me.  This is not my argument.

I think most law school applicants realize the reality of the situation when they attend a T2,T3,T4 school.

I think you're mistaken.  I think they know it's bad, however, most either tend to underestimate just how bad it is or assume that they are special snowflakes that will beat the system or transfer.  It's only after 1L or 2L, when they're stuck in the middle of the pack at a T3 or T4, that they start to get that sinking feeling in their stomachs.  By that point in time, they're already swimming in $100K of debt, so, what the hell, why not finish it off and have something to show for it?

It seems like every other day I see a new post on here about how some kid is willing to take on the risk of going to a T3 or T4 with the hopes of transferring up.  I don't even bother commenting on those threads any more.  Good luck cracking the top 10% of your class - the odds are heavily stacked against you and I hope you've made a backup plan to cut your losses in the (90% likely) event that you original plan backfires.

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Cooley vs Capital
« on: May 09, 2012, 12:35:50 PM »
I don't think so.  On the whole, job prospects tend to get worse the deeper you go into the law school rankings.  That tends to demonstrate that it is, in fact, the schools, rather than the individuals.

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Cooley vs Capital
« on: May 09, 2012, 09:04:17 AM »
One question: Has law school transparency updated? Last I checked, in 2011 I think, they stopped at 2009.

Also, notice that Cooley isn't on top of this list....ha.

Apparently so.  It's got 2010 data.  I honestly never believed that Cooley was the worst school in the country - only that it was one of the many horrible T4s.

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Cooley vs Capital
« on: May 08, 2012, 09:20:38 PM »
Then say T4s and don't single out Cooley. . .

I think I can accommodate you with minimal effort.

A list of schools you should not attend:

(Courtesy of

We've been crunching the Law School Transparency employment data and compiled this list of the Fracked Fifteen, the fifteen law schools with Under-Employment Scores [unemployed, part-time jobs, non-professional jobs, and pursuing another degree] higher than Employment Scores [jobs requiring bar passage, less short-term firm jobs and solo practitioners]:

15. Ave Maria School of Law
Employment Score: 36.9%
Under-Employment Score: 38.1%
Different: -1.2%
Unemployment Rate: 28.6%

14. Thomas M Cooley Law School
Employment Score: 21.7%
Under-Employment Score: 23.1%
Difference: -1.4%
Unemployment Rate: 17.7%

13.Thomas Jefferson School of Law
Employment Score: 19.5%
Under-Employment Score: 22.2%
Difference: -2.7%
Unemployment Rate: 9.5%

12. John Marshall Law School - Atlanta
Employment Score: 24.7%
Under-Employment Score: 28.3%
Difference: -3.6%
Unemployment Rate: 7.8%

11. University of Detroit Mercy
Employment Score: 27.8%
Under-Employment Score: 31.8%
Difference: -4.0%
Unemployment Rate: 18%

10. Florida Coastal School of Law
Employment Score: 30.9%
Under-Employment Score: 37.6%
Difference: -6.7%
Unemployment Rate: 7.4%

9. University of Toledo
Employment Score: 37.9%
Under-Employment Score: 45.3%
Difference: -7.4%
Unemployment Rate: 8.7%

8. Western New England College of Law
Employment Score: 30.1%
Under-Employment Score: 40.5%
Difference: -10.4%
Unemployment Rate: 17.4%

7. Champan University
Employment Score: 35.1%
Under-Employment Score: 46.8%
Difference: -11.7%
Unemployment Rate: 16.4%

6. Whittier Law School
Employment Score: 18.1%
Under-Employment Score: 31.2%
Difference: -13.1%
Unemployment Rate: 7.2%


5. Barry University
Employment Score: 24.4%
Under-Employment Score: 37.6%
Difference: -13.2%
Unemployment Rate: 28.4%

4. University of San Francisco
Employment Score: 40.8%
Under-Employment Score: 55.9%
Difference: -15.1%
Unemployment Rate: 8.4%

3. Golden Gate University
Employment Score: 23%
Under-Employment Score: 42.5%
Difference: -19.5%
Unemployment Rate: 15.5%

2. Florida A&M University
Employment Score: 20.2%
Under-Employment Score: 45.2%
Difference: -25.0%
Unemployment Rate: 26.7%

1. Santa Clara University
Employment Score: 53.1%
Under-Employment Score: 81.3%
Difference: -28.2%
Unemployment Rate: 20.0%

There are another 5 schools that comprise a list of dishonorable mention. Their Employment Score is lower than their combined Under-Employment Score and unknown employment status rates. They are: California Western School of Law, Texas Wesleyan, New England School of Law, Liberty University, Capital University. . .

This is an old thread, but Paul Campos recently wrote up a decent post on aample:

It's worth a read.

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Cooley vs Capital
« on: May 08, 2012, 09:43:56 AM »
Compare Cooley to T4s.  Arg.

Why?  To determine which school is king of sh1t mountain?  I have no interest in doing that.  Instead, I prefer to show people how a good/decent law school should be placing its students and comparing that to the placements at Cooley (and all T4s, for that matter - it just happened that this thread focused on Cooley and Capital).  If you're interested in finding the king of sh1t mountain, feel free to post the stats.  I'm not sure you'll get much out of it.  A turd is still a turd, no matter how much you polish it.
The OP asked for "any input on where to go" and listed Cooley and Capital as potential choices.  My answer is "neither".  Retake the LSAT and get into a better school - one with better employment prospects.

Perhaps this explanation will get through?

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Cooley vs Capital
« on: May 08, 2012, 09:28:15 AM »
firms with 25 people or more, so in other words solo practioners don't exist.

thats interesting.

Federal clerkships?!  So, in other words, state clerkships, ALJ clerkships, specialty court clerkships, shitlaw jobs, etc. don't exist?

People who were unemployed nine months after graduation?!  So, people who were unemployed 1 year after graduation don't exist?

That's interesting.

Look, guy.  The stats are there - I linked to them.  I don't have the time to sit here and post stats all day to appease you.  I've cut and pasted the Stanford/Cooley comparison right off of Professor Paul Campos' website.  I got bitched at because it was a comparison between Cooley (a school that "everyone knows sucks" - but yet, the OP is willing to take a chance on) and one of the top schools in the nation.  So, I crunched the numbers and posted the same stats with Cooley vs. two Tier 2s. Again, I get bitched at - this time, because I could have posted other stats, but I didn't. 

Why don't you stop whining and post your own stats if you don't like what I've posted?  I think the stats speak for themselves.  If you believe that Cooley places better in the solo market, BY ALL MEANS, post the stats.  Someone will then complain that you didn't consider firms with > 300 attorneys, with > 5 attorneys, with > 10 attorneys, with > 2 attorneys.

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Cooley vs Capital
« on: May 07, 2012, 08:36:11 AM »
Does anyone, anyone here think the way to put down Cooley is by comparing it to a T14?  Really?

How about the cold employment stats?  How about the attrition rate?  How about alum dissatisfaction?  Bar passage rates? tuition? Grading curves? All, ofc, looked at independently and objectively- not compared to the 3rd most successful school in the country.  Its a weak approach.

I guess you missed the part where I compared Cooley to two Teir 2s and it still looked horrible?

But! Since I am quite young (20), the idea of 35k a year starting salaries doesn't scare me off, and I'm excited to work my butt off in order to achieve the rank I need.

Will you be able to live comfortably making $35k and paying off student loans? 

Take a look at the stats at these schools before you go:

% of grads going into public interest:

GGU - 2.9%
Brooklyn - 5.8%
Loyola LA - 3.3%
Sturm - ?
CUNY - 33.3%
Depaul - 4.5%
Chicago-Kent - 4.5%

Might want to also call the admissions department and see where most of the PI grads are going.

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