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Messages - Thane Messinger

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Job Search / Re: Studying for the BAR, huge DEBT, no JOB, WHAT DO DO?
« on: July 08, 2011, 01:15:06 AM »
Specks -

As to the process, each branch maintains its own selection criteria and process.  Search via each branch's recruitment site.  (I believe there were links to each elsewhere, but they're easy enough to find.) 

Quite a few members of the military are critical of national and social policies, but you do have a fair concern.  While it's certainly possible to be blase about patriotism, that's not a terribly good start.  (If you'd like to ignite a sense of pride in these United States, click on Transparency International, find their annual list of global corruption, choose any of the nations in the bottom half--via a game of darts is fine--and go teach English there for two years.  Actually, two months will likely do it.  You'll become so patriotic your own parents will threaten to disown you if you don't cease and desist humming God Bless America.)

Hanging your own shingle?  Unless you're willing to work harder there than you will in Officer Training School (or Candidate School, depending upon the service), no. 

If "no" is a bit too brusque (as I've been guilty of), read Lund's first two Jagged Rocks of Wisdom books.  Substitute "client" for "partner."  If you're still inclined in that direction, that's a good sign.

As to choosing an area of law, not even a 3d-year law student should spend too much time on this.  This is hard for pre-law students to fathom, but there are really only two tracks in law school: litigation and transactional . . . and those aren't all that hard-and-fast.

I could recommend a book, but that would be a tad self-interested, yes?   = :   )

Best of luck to you and your tutee.


Also, she complains that she sent out 150 resumes to no avail. This, too, needs to be qualified. If these were just template, unsolicited resumes, then 150 is nothing. However, if she sent a resume for each law firm along with a tailored cover letter (for example, she could've researched a recent case the firm worked on and discussed what she could have brought to the table, and so on), then 150 is significant. But if she just sent out 150 template resumes/cover letters, then she should have sent out hundreds (if not thousands) more. There are over 2700 attorneys and law firms listed on Martindale Hubbell in San Diego alone.

I think part of the problem is that most people fail to realize when they're unemployed searching for a job should be approached as a full-time job in itself. From the scant details that I've read about this case, I'm not sure she understood this.

Excellent points.  I graduated into a dismal market (in 1991), and while I had OCIs (which became suddenly even rarer as firm after firm cancelled) I also had to scramble to line up my own interviews, including paying for a trip with money I didn't have to, essentially, create my own interview tour.  And this with, yes, law review, top school, etc.  Interestingly, it was one of these interviews that paid off, in a firm I almost didn't contact.  (And, yes, nowadays there's no excuse for anything less than a semi-custom CV and letter for each firm.)  Had I had the skills in OCI that I had to develop for the self-generated interviews, I might have bought a ticket to Boston or New York rather than Honolulu.  Although looking back I am happy it worked out as it did, it was a stressful time.  But it was far less stressful for me than for others.

I write that only to say that it's easy to react negatively when someone lectures about finding a job, etc, etc.  But, it really is true.  If it's a full-time job, chances are you'll be fired . . . and hired into a job you do want.

Not only should looking for work be taken very, very seriously, but it's important to be brutally honest with yourself about interviewing skills.  In a good market, so-so interviews can work, sort of.  But even then, those top jobs tend to go to those who are, yes, top candidates . . . but also to those who act like top candidates. 

There's an excerpt by a law partner about interviewing in a book, the Insider's Guide to Getting a Big Firm Job.  The parter provides a measure of this brutal honesty.  That book was written for a seemingly different age, but, paradoxically, it's even more important now to develop those skills for finding and landing an interview, and then actually interviewing well.

Current Law Students / Re: Venting about Bar Exam
« on: June 26, 2011, 02:27:10 PM »
I greatly appreciate any advice anyone can give me.  Thank you.   

Ag -

As to lesser-ranked students being taught to the bar, not quite.   In any event, a few thoughts:

Don't try to "cram."  That is the method that has somehow seeped into our collective academic consciousness.  It's a terrible idea, and it doesn't work very well.

Instead, this is the time to synthesize what was learned--often fleetingly--for the first year especially.  Dig out your outlines.  What you'll do is twofold.  First, perfect your outline for each subject.  Does each part make sense?  When you look at each element, it starts to become elementary.  As you go through the bar review lectures, fit each piece back into that puzzle.  The acid test:  it should be "ah ha!," not "huh?!" 

Second, condense each outline from 30-50 pages to 1-2 pages.  Seriously.  This is what you need to have walking into the bar exam.  But not as sheets of paper.  Rather, it's etched into your mind.  But not because you're "cramming."  Rather, it's because you've gone over it so many times it's just so basic. 

Third, this should be fun.  Really.  Listening to the tapes and even being in the exam should be stressful, yes, but it should also be exhilarating . . . and calming.  The reaction should be "So that's what we were talking about in first year." 

You can do this.  You will do this.  You were smart enough to get into a good law school . . . you're going to be fine. 

Will type more, but gotta' run. 

Best of luck, sincerely,


SAN DIEGO CBS 8 - A former local law student is suing her alma mater for $50 million, after she couldn't find a job.

The student, San Diegan Anna Alaburda, graduated with honors from the Thomas Jefferson School of Law and passed the bar on her first try. She claims she has been unable to find full-time work as an attorney for the past three years. [continued ....]

If she loses, will that be evidence that the law school didn't do its job?

= :   )

Schools are literally putting significant amounts of money, resources, and time to boost the opinion of some magazine that has no authority and uses an absurd methodology to make their conclusions. It is so absurd that schools jump 20 spots any given year and they have 11 way ties in the rankings see the 11 way tie for 84th place. .

Bigs & All -

There a recent article in the ABA Journal online that you might find interesting:

Also, for more ammo on your side, there's Thomas Sowell's Inside American Education.  On pages 108-110 especially, he's quite provocative about the ratings scam/urge/business.

See?  Being a lawyer is too fun!   = :   )

I think everything you said is true, but it is exactly what is wrong with legal education.

* * *

It is too bad the MacCrate report did not go any further than it did, but one failure doesn't mean people should stop. Hopefully more people like him stand up and make an attempt to change the system that is in serious need of reform.

Bigs & All -

Would you believe the antitrust route was tried?  Feisty Massachusetts School of Law, which refuses to go through ABA's accreditation ritual because it would mean higher tuition and less well-rounded students [yes, you read that right], plugs away but with no discernable movement on the part of Dean Velvel and MSL's many complaints.  There was--surprise!--a settlement in that case between the Department of Justice and the ABA. 

As to MacCrate, he and his report were akin to the 1983 report A Nation At Risk, which excoriated our educational system.   It would have been hard to have been more critical than MacCrate and his committee were of legal education.  It would have been all but impossible to be more "powerful."  To repeat, he was a voice from the inside, at the top of the profession, commissioned by the ABA.  [!]   Not only has nothing happened, but what has happened has tended to make the situation worse, not better.  A random sampling of grandparents--from all walks of life and whether as to high schools, college, or law school--would be appalled at our system now.

Unfortunately, the incentives in the system are too deeply embedded.  The solution that fails to address those incentives will fail, period.  (Paradoxically, the closest this came was during Bush II, when the Administration spanked the ABA for its rather ham-handed handling of judicial nominations.)

I became interested in this over a decade ago, in response to a reader of Young Lawyer's Jungle Book who later wrote Planet Law School.  If there is "harsher than MacCrate," Atticus Falcon is it.  It took some years for me to come around, and in my second book, on law school (GGG), I address many of the issues we're talking about.

Also, I fully agree with you as to the quality of lawyers within the profession.  This has been and remains a common complaint among practitioners and judges (including Supreme Court justices).   I too agree that, were this medical school, this would be raw malpractice.  (In fact I argue just this in GGG.)  Falcon uses "pedagogical malpractice" enough that even I start rolling my eyes.
One way to think of this is to separate the ideal from the individual.  Idealism is a dangerous thing (even if you happen to have just the right brand of idealism), because it runs up against human nature.  [Worse still is an idealist with power, as then there's little to check that righteous ambition.]  At another end of the scale is a combination of reality and individualism.  So, for an individual, the answers are usually to (1) understand what is going on, (2) avoid the worst dangers, and even (3) take advantage of the system toward one's own ends. 

[Yes, there is an idealism that does work, grounded in realism and focused on rules of the road.  Unfortunately, this now cuts very much against the social and educational grain.]

The problem vis-a-vis law school is that among those incentives are incentives--very strong incentives--to believe in the system.  Those who get great grades from top schools are crowned victors, and everyone else mutters about how rigged this system is.  Well, yes.  But it's rigged for reasons having little to do with U.S. News.  U.S. News is the symptom, not the disease. 

A slightly different take on a point on which I would disagree:  students are not customers, nor should they be treated as such.  This is one among many illnesses that infect our educational system--albeit not, for different reasons, in law school.  Students should be treated courteously, of course, and with respect.  But allegience is owed to the profession first, and then to students.  What happens when the pendulum swings too far from the bad old days of professors as demigods to one in which the entire system is nearly scared of its own shadow for fear of angering any segment of the student population, or of "serving" their "customer"?  Would you like fries with that degree?  It should come as no surprise that learning is likely to be less than it might in such a system, and--here's the key--the ones most harmed are those students who are most at risk:  who could have achieved more with a few truer assessments and prods.  What happens instead is a system of a relatively thin layer of insiders with ample help on the side . . . and, well, everyone else.

I would argue that in fact a focus on the students is part of what causes so much harm, as, by definition, students are not yet aware of what is important.  One need only imagine a senior practitioner in place of a law professor for a few minutes to realize just how pointless most classroom discussions are.  Unfortunately, most students understandably misinterpret feel-good discussion for meaningful learning.  They take armfuls of notes and then wonder just what it is they're supposed to be doing.  They wake up several months later, when exam results are in.

Sorry, didn't mean to go off on such a tangent.  I've heard the "I'm a customer!" line rather too often, and see just how pernicious the effects are.

So, yes, the system is misaligned.  Badly misaligned.  And while I suspect we would agree on nearly everything, the real challenge for any individual student reading this [Say, that's everyone!] is, after the healthful venting, to refocus on what this all means.  For that I would go back to the intial comments:  rankings are important because people believe that they are.  People want to believe.  Hey, it's your species.  How they're important, however, is not how they're commonly used.   Moreover, for anyone already in law school, the real challenge is to do well, which is far harder than it seems.  The forced curve is just one culprit.  The more serious culprit are the many maladaptive behaviors from high school through college.  If you don't believe me, try another professor:  the author of Law School Undercover.  He offers another inside look at something of some importance: exams.

To bigs, thank you.  This is why we go to law school.  = :   )

General Off-Topic Board / Re: Music For the Brain!
« on: June 20, 2011, 05:48:25 PM »
funny, that what your suggestion getting.

= :   )

General Off-Topic Board / Re: Music For the Brain!
« on: June 19, 2011, 02:22:28 AM »
List the music you listen in the background while studying.

Would anyone be upset if the correct answer (albeit with due acknowledgement to the suggestion for an uplifting battle hymn) is . . .

 . . . silence.

General Off-Topic Board / Re: What literature do you recommend?
« on: June 19, 2011, 02:19:45 AM »
Chuck, thank you for the advice. As you can see I need to work on my writing. I greatly appreciate the advice from the forum.


There's a short book that has specific advice on this point as well.  It's Law School Fast Track.  Among the recommendations are those as to reading (and writing as well).



They claimed that they had reduced floor-space usage by something like 8,000%.

At least they were able to secure that 8,000% bonus.

= :   )

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