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Messages - jonlevy
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« on: January 17, 2012, 09:44:24 AM »
The Wall Street Journal OpEd is suggesting we bring back the Bachelors in Law and get rid of the ABA law schools, I agree:
JANUARY 17, 2012
First Thing We Do, Let's Kill All the Law Schools
Allowing undergraduate law majors to take the bar exam would increase the number of attorneys and lower legal fees..
By JOHN O. MCGINNIS
AND RUSSELL D. MANGAS
Over three years, tuition at a law school can exceed $150,000. Even this princely sum does not capture the full cost. During the time spent at these schools, most students could have earned substantial income. A recent analysis by Herwig Schlunk of Vanderbilt University suggests that for bright students with attractive career opportunities, the total cost of law school is closer to $275,000.
The high cost of graduate legal education limits the supply of lawyers and leads to higher legal fees. And higher fees place legal services out of the reach of middle-income families at a time when increasing complexity demands more access to these services. In short, the current system leaves citizens underserved and young lawyers indebted.
Some have argued that to reduce costs states should simply drop their educational requirements, policing lawyer quality through bar exams, if at all. But the requirement of a legal education can serve important public needs.
First, most citizens, particularly the less educated, do not know much about law and have difficulty evaluating the skill of individual lawyers. Some education in law makes it more likely that a lawyer will be competent. Second, educated lawyers provide a public good. In the United States, most important political questions become legal questions. Educated lawyers can supply a deeper social understanding that informs political policy-making.
Here is a straightforward solution: States should permit undergraduate colleges to offer majors in law that will entitle graduates to take the bar exam. If they want to add a practical requirement, states could also ask graduates to serve one-year apprenticeships before becoming eligible for admission to the bar.....
Full article in today's WSJ.
« on: January 16, 2012, 08:26:56 PM »
« on: January 16, 2012, 06:32:58 PM »
But sorry what is a blue collar attorney, is that an attorney who represents people instead of big corporations?
Shingle outside of door? That is so 1991. Website on Internet is where its at.
« on: January 16, 2012, 03:08:24 PM »
What is a blue collar attorney exactly? I work in shorts and a t-shirt most of the time.
« on: January 16, 2012, 09:30:49 AM »
1. Oh Lord, you're stuck in Lodi. Forever. There are some exceptions, e.g., in-house counsel seem to have some freedom to move around the country after a few years of practice, but for the most part, if you don't intend to stay in CA, a CBA school is a total waste of money.
Not necessarily after 5 years you have options also federal practice which we can discuss in another thread opens up all manner of possibilities.
Besides California is a huge state. In house counsel is not likely going be an option nor is working for the government, they all copy each others ads and put ABA only need apply even if the HR people haven't slightest idea what that means. You want limited opportunities, try getting a DL degree.
2. Forget Biglaw. Period.
I agree but who want to go here?
3. As a direct result of Advantage No. 6 above, a percentage of people in 1L courses probably shouldn't be there. We lost more than a third of our class going into 2L, although in fairness, there were many reasons why people didn't return besides just grades.
That's a good thing, the ABA schools retain a lot of fools who then cause upteen problems once they become attorneys.
4. A number of ABA students who have never done a tour of duty in the military, nor gone anywhere or done anything in life except attend school, are convinced that they are inherently superior to everything that walks and talks. Especially to the lowly CBA graduate. This character trait attaches to the personality profile and unships with great reluctance. Deal with it. This cannot be changed.
Nothing worse than 23 year olds who are focused just on money, a good reason to avoid them if you are not one of the herd.
5. You'll have fewer career options.
Not necessaruly, as a licensed California attorney you have the same options any other attorney does but definitely not Big Law. Go get some specialized training post qualification and you will be ahead of 90% of ABA grads in tjhe knowledge department.
6. You will have less prestige among other attorneys. You are not at all among the elite. This is the social and professional "relation back doctrine." See Disadvantage No. 4.
Well that's for sure.
7. Unless you have the experience mentioned in Advantage No. 8, you're very likely to end up in criminal law if you make it all the way. I don't know the stats, and this isn't absolute. But I would risk five bucks I'm right.
Criminal law, Workers Comp. Social Secuirty Disability, Family Law, Real estate law are all abosolutely great places to start your practice. If you want to represent General Motors or an Insurance company you went to the wrong school. if you want to work with actual people you did the right thing. if you want to be some body slave to a law partner go to an ABA school.
8. Most CBA schools with which I am familiar take four years to complete. ABA schools usually take three, unless they're part time.
true, the extra year is likely an edge in passing the bar.
9. Statistically, your odds of passing the bar on the first try are only 50-50. This bears some discussion. I do not believe that this has anything to do with getting a J.D. from a CBA school. It goes to the average academic abilities of CBA students taken as a whole. The A/B students who make it through a CBA education are highly intelligent, highly motivated, and would do just fine in an ABA school. And they tend to pass the bar on the first try. However, the other half of the CBA bar candidates who graduated with a C average have much greater difficulty passing the CA bar exam, which is well established as being one of the hardest bar exams in the country.
Right, depends on the individual has nothing to do with the school.
« on: January 15, 2012, 03:51:52 PM »
Ever tried to collect a judgment against a Marshall Islands corporation or any judgment against someone who does not want to pay?
A lot of lawsuits don't get filed because there is no point wasting time, effort, and money suing just for the sake of suing.
An individual would not have standing to get an injunction close the school though a state attorney general might or the FTC.
« on: January 15, 2012, 11:02:34 AM »
Concord is part of the Washington Post Corporation and Kaplan University system. If you are looking for resources and bells and whistles, hand holding etc. none of the other DL schools can compete with Concord in terms of what is available to the student.
You cannot take the DC bar but you can simply motion in after 5 years of practice after passing the Cal bar.
No non ABA grad can take the DC Bar absent an additional 26 hours of ABA study:http://www.dcappeals.gov/dccourts/appeals/coa/index.jsp
Law Study in Law School Not Approved by the ABA. An applicant who
graduated from a law school not approved by the American Bar Association shall be permitted to
take the bar examination only after successfully completing at least 26 semester hours of study in
the subjects tested in the bar examination in a law school that at the time of such study was
approved by the American Bar Association. All such 26 semester hours shall be earned in
courses of study, each of which is substantially concentrated on a single tested subject.
« on: January 15, 2012, 10:04:22 AM »
The question here is whether one can argue that DL schools are accredited by California. My understanding is that they may not be, they are just registered with the state. Therefore a potentilal issue would be convincing Maine that for the purposes of their statute registered means the same thing as state accredited or is of no consequence since the applicant already is a practicing attorney.
CAN ATTORNEYS ADMITTED IN ANOTHER STATE QUALIFY FOR A MODIFIED EXAMINATION?
Yes. The Maine Board of Bar Examiners offers two types of modified examinations, which are described in MBAR 10(e).
Under MBAR 10(e)(1)(i), if an attorney has been admitted by examination to practice in one or more jurisdictions in the United States and has been in the active practice of law for at least 3 of the preceding 5 years in a jurisdiction in which he or she is licensed, the attorney may elect to take only the first day of the Maine Bar Examination. In addition, these attorneys are not required to use a Multistate Bar Examination (MBE) score.
Under MBAR 10(e)(1)(ii), an applicant who has taken the Multistate Bar Examination (MBE) within 61 months prior to the current administration of the Maine examination may elect to take only the first day of the Maine Bar Examination and use the prior MBE score.
Under MBAR 10(e)(2), an applicant who qualifies under MBAR 10(e)(1)(i) or (ii) and who has a MBE score of 155 or better on an examination which the applicant passed, is qualified to elect to take only the first two questions on the Maine Bar Examination. These questions cover one or more of the following: Maine's Code of Professional Responsibility, Maine's Rules of Evidence and Maine's Rules of Civil, Appellate and Criminal Procedure
WHAT IF I ATTENDED A NON-ABA ACCREDITED LAW SCHOOL?
Maine Bar Admission Rule 10 (c) (3)) requires that applicants who graduate from a non-ABA accredited program must be admitted and practice in a jurisdiction for three years before they are eligible to sit for the Maine bar. MBAR 10(c)(3). Graduates of the Massachusetts School of Law are eligible to sit for the Maine bar exam if they have been admitted in Massachusetts and file a certificate of good standing with the Board:
(3) graduated from a law school accredited by the United States jurisdiction in
which it is located and has been admitted to practice by examination in one or more
jurisdictions within the United States and has been in active practice there for at least
« on: January 15, 2012, 09:51:36 AM »
American Samoa looks possible if one is a member of the DC bar (California has no reciprocity) and the reciprocity rule is interpreted as trumping the Education rule.
Looks like you have to be resident in that jurisdiction though, no non resident attorneys will be admitted.
« on: January 14, 2012, 08:36:07 PM »
"I am looking into DL schools too, but the list of reasons why they couldn't go to an ABA school are the same reasons that would limit their ability to leave the nation"
Circumstances change with time .
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