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Messages - jonlevy

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381
Nope each and every federal court and agency (if applicable) has its own rules.  The good news is that DL degree holders who pass the Cal Bar can join many of them on motion.

382
Most federal district courts restrict bar membership to in state attorneys, some require co-counsel on cases, the minority permit out of state attorneys to become members, ND Illinois, USDC North Dakota, USDC Puerto Rico come to mind.  The Circuit Courts of Appeals are more liberal. But even though I can represent a client in the 11th Circuit in Atlanta, I cannot set up an office there because I am not a Georgia attorney. For a single case, pro hac vice is always available but that usually but not always requires local counsel. And therein lies the idiocy of the entire scheme, the higher the court, the less thaty are concerned about your law degree or where your state bar membership is from.

There is a lawsuit in California ongoing about this:

http://www.mjplaw.org/index.html

383
You can do Vets, Tax, and Social Security advocacy now without a law license to one degree or another. Once you have the law license from California, even though you are in federal administrative practice, the Washington state bar may take a dim view of you opening an office and advertising as an attorney with only a California license.  This is a very gray area if you intend to have a physical presence in Washington. Since you would be competing with Washington licensed lawyers in the same field, eventually you will be subject to to a UPL (unlicensed practice of law) referal to the state bar. So instead of being outside the box, you will be in the box unless you plan accordingly and do your due diligence to avoid such issues.  But the issue arises all the time - one just needs to be aware how to avoid it.

384
Taft GPA was 2.79 but maybe that was before everyone expected an A or a B by right.  The only testing as I remember it were proctored essay tests.


what do you consider a low GPA? It couldn't have been too bad if you got into additional grad programs after that.
It is interesting that GPA seems not to have a direct link to bar pass rates. Do you think there is any reason why? Is it different types of testing involved?

I added the extra credentials because I moved away from California and couldn't get admitted anywhere except DC.  Works for me.  I did the DL route because I tried law school and hated it with a passion.  The lectures caused me mental anguish. Then I saw how lawyers did less work and got paid more, so gave DL a try. My GPA was ridiculously low at Taft but I had no problem with FYBE and Bar.

DL students fail for several reasons:

1.  lack of time commitment
2.  lack of basic reading and writing skills
3.  inability to memorize and retain information
4.  lack of previous exposure to the legal system

Successful DL grads likely would for the most part of have been admitted to a regular law school.

385
I added the extra credentials because I moved away from California and couldn't get admitted anywhere except DC.  Works for me.  I did the DL route because I tried law school and hated it with a passion.  The lectures caused me mental anguish. Then I saw how lawyers did less work and got paid more, so gave DL a try. My GPA was ridiculously low at Taft but I had no problem with FYBE and Bar.

DL students fail for several reasons:

1.  lack of time commitment
2.  lack of basic reading and writing skills
3.  inability to memorize and retain information
4.  lack of previous exposure to the legal system

Successful DL grads likely would for the most part of have been admitted to a regular law school.

386
Each state has different admission rules so citing a case from one state in another state generally isn't going to be much help. The two cases mentioned so far do not persuade me that DL degree holders would fair very well on petitiuons even with substantial practice experience. If you read enough of these rules, you will see a good number of states go out of their way to ban correspondence degrees from any consideration.  Best chance would be in a state that has non ABA schools.

But on the whole the entire matter is ridiculous, a DL degreeholder can argue a case before the US Supreme Court and US Circuit Courts of Appeal but cannot represent a DUI case in most states. I have nothing but contempt for the entire ABA scam.

387
What one has to lose is a lot of time, hassle and expense.

388
Two instances of successful petitions for DL grads, to me that says chances of anyone else getting past the correspondence school black list are slim and none. Unless you can show me a few more, I'd say petitioning is largely a waste of time and effort. Better to concentrate on doors that are already open.

389
Note none of these are DL school graudates - online and correspondence grads are going to have the toughest time of it.


Louis v. Supreme Court of Nevada, 490 F. Supp. 1174 (D. Nev.1980),  dealt with a generalized challenge to the Nevada Bar's practice of waiving objections to the non-ABA accredited law schools that men attended and allowing them to take the bar, but refusing to grant similar waivers to women thereby precluding such women from taking the bar.

Nordgren v. Hafter, Civil Action No. E84-0130(L), UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF MISSISSIPPI, EASTERN DIVISION, 616 F. Supp. 742; 1985 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 16453, August 27, 1985
Plaintiff has no constitutional right to sit for the Mississippi bar examination without complying with the educational requirements of 73-3-2 and Rule V. The ABA-accredition requirement is rationally related to the state's legitimate interest in ensuring that each applicant for the bar has a uniform quality legal education

In the Matter of the Application of Margaret L. MACARTNEY and Roger M. Sherman, to be Admitted as a Member of the State Bar of the State of Arizona
163 Ariz. 116; 786 P.2d 967; 1990 Ariz. LEXIS 278; 53 Ariz. Adv. Rep. 7
Petitioners graduated from the Nevada School of Law Old College (Old College) in Reno, Nevada, a non-ABA accredited school. The court granted the applicants' motion for reconsideration and granted their petition for waiver of the requirement that they have graduated from an ABA-accredited law school prior to sitting for the Arizona bar examination. The applicants were allowed to take the Arizona bar examination, provided they met all other requirements that applied to applicants in general.

In Re Petition of Paul Dolan for Review of the State Board of Law Examiners' Decision and In Re Application of Milton Welsh Schober for Admission to Practice Law in the State of Minnesota, 445 N.W.2d 553; 1989 Minn. LEXIS 224
The court granted the application of the first lawyer that the Board of Law Examiners had recommended be admitted. Regarding the second lawyer, the court ordered that his application be remanded to the Board for development of a complete factual record if he wished to pursue the matter further.

In re Application of Gail Collins-Bazant for Admission to the Nebraska State Bar on Examination.
254 Neb. 614; 578 N.W.2d 38; 1998 Neb. LEXIS 132
The court granted the attorney's application for a waiver of the application of rule 5 and permitted the attorney to sit for the Nebraska bar examination.

390
"you either didn't read it or don't understand what it means"

In all fairness, statutes and rules, are hard to read and undertsand even if you have practiced law for many years.

One of the good things about DL study is that you can focus on important things for the Bar like memorizing the UCC and some of the key Restatement sections.
Being able to regurgitate that stuff on command when appropriate will impress whoever is grading your exam far more than eloquent arguments based on fact not law.


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