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Isis *wink* (no homo) hey yourself Rattler!  ;D

Far as the question on what schools, I was told having a WIDE selection of schools from all levels of selectivity (dream schools down to "everybody gets in here" schools) my choices range from top 10s like yale, harvard. and cornell (whose 25th percentile UG gpa i am above, so I am in their middle 50% range, unlike the others), good ones like Georgetown, average ones like American and mercer and ones that are strong regionally like UMiami and Georgia State, and others like Howard (although I don't want to go to another HBCU for law, just because I thought a different experience might be good for my health.

I know the name brand schools always look good when it's time to impress future clients, but i wonder if a solo is the end goal how much that really matters, cause with lawyers aren't people either going for the one with the lowest fees and best customer service...or the one all their friends and family use?

For practical experience I was thinking being a state attorney would be a good way to get experience, get some loans excused, and get exposure/make contacts.

If all these lofty plans go up in smoke due to a bad lsat etc...then hey, I go where I am accepted that is convenient and make the best of that, because I know people that went to what i believe are t3 or 4 schools and are doing quite gets very hard though, trying to decipher how much of the name brand snobbery applies to what I will face as I go about MY plans for my legal future...and how much of it is only for those trying to get in with big corporate law firms. 

I also see a lot of doom and gloom predicted about too many lawyers on the job market...but as I really intend to do law for the specific purpose of not being forever looking a job but instead making my own...and since the fields i am interested in have an endless supply of clients (immigration and family law)...I am really feeling like a lot of what i am reading just does not apply to me.

General Off-Topic Board / Re: Feel good story...
« on: October 30, 2009, 04:21:07 PM »
Not sure what board this would go on, but I wanted to share this story of how sometimes good deeds pay off

My parents have been all over me to attend an event with them.  My undergraduate college is close, but not really easily accessible to the event.  However, my dad said it was really important to him.  So, immediately after a midterm I travel the hour ride in freezing rain on a motorcycle, skipping dinner, just to be the good son.

When I arrive I am sat next to an old family friend who I haven't seen in a while but has known me since I was in 3rd grade.  I am bored, but want to be polite so I start a conversation.  Turns out he is the head of the Law Clerk and Research section at the headquarters office of ******, a MAJOR law firm with strong ties to the field of law I am most interested in.  He goes on to say that he is looking for a paid undergrad intern that he knows he can trust.  I slyly introduce the fact that I am pre-law with decent credentials, he bites.

Score 1 for the Good Guys!!!

awww NICE!

Sounds almost like my "accidental" receipt of a full scholarship to my undergrad!  I thought it was an award ceremony as in a plaque to hang on the wall...but we drove the 1.5 hours since we were invited and just had that feeling we should go.

turned out they were SCHOLARSHIP awards and i got a full one.

Love those GOOOOD surprises!

And to think I nearly didn't show up!

Minority and Non-Traditional Law Students / Re: FAMU Law School
« on: October 30, 2009, 04:12:53 PM »
Don't go to FAMU. Just don't. It's arguably the worst law school in Florida.

but it's also the only one in orlando...she appears to be a single mother of 3 (since she didn't say married with 3) so what do you propose as her alternatives?

Not go to law school. Or move.

Ouch.  Why so blunt?  And how come I never see you say anything nice on the boards?

Are you in FSU law or are you an FSU grad (from undergrad)?

If her support system to help with those 3 kids is in orlando she is going to need to stay put.  Unless she gets into/has relatives or friends committed to helping out near a better ranked school.

I am sure FAMU put that school there precisely because that is a gap in the law school geography, and to serve the folks who may have legal career aspirations but need to stay put.

Plus I notice they went from being provisionally accredited to fully ABA accredited so they must be doing something right.

I personally would not want to be bothered with FAMU's administrative and financial aid b.s. though.  lol But that's just me.

I'm generally blunt and to the point because that's how you have to be at this level. You don't have to be a total male private part to everyone, but you do have to realize that sugarcoating things helps no one and gets nothing accomplished. And I say nice things all the time, you just have to be in the right place at the right time.

Yes, I'm at FSU's law school. Tragically, I didn't go here for UG though.

FAMU probably did put their law school in Orlando because they saw a gap in the market, but I wouldn't be so sure about the other altruistic goals, Barry is already there to serve people trapped in Orlando (albeit at a price). And they did become fully accredited, but I don't see how. How the ABA isn't troubled by a bar passage rate that's consistently in the 50-60% range is beyond me. If they ever implement the 10% rule for continuing accreditation, FAMU Law is going to disappear.

Agree that OP should probably stay put where her support system is if that's indeed what's going on. But I don't think that's a particularly good reason to attend one of the worst law schools in the country. It's probably a bad idea to go to a bad UG because it happens to be where you live. It's definitely a bad idea to go to a bad law school because it's what's in the area.

Not to mention, how is the OP going to even kind of take care of 3 kids while in law school? Even with a good support system in place, OP is still not going to be able to work during 1L and isn't going to really have free time to spend with the kids. There's a reason a lot of people go the HS --> UG --> LS route and put off kids for later. Having 3 kids pretty much precludes you from going to law school until they're out the door or at least old enough to take care of themselves.

I see your points...I don't know what the appeal is with FAMU if one does not live in orlando but I went to FAMU for undergrad (only because they gave me a full scholarship, cause I had actually never heard of them before that)...but just for me personally it could be ranked higher than Harvard I've had enough of the folks in the foote-hilyer administration building. The school has great programs and I like everything else, and much like FSU, the parties are wicked...but I'm ready to deal with a school who delivers financial aid before I'm on the verge of being homeless. lol.

Not really sure how the OP plans to manage...I know my old OB/GYN and his wife sent their kids back home while they were in med school...but this is common for us folks for the Caribbean...split up for a few years to cement a solid future for all the rest of years.

I am definitely pondering sending my younger one back home to start school. If she stays up here and goes public she is forced to start in the year she turns 6.  That is bothering the hell out of me.

Because you are right people are going to need time outside of being in class to research, do homework, participate in what's going on in law school, aba conferences and other networking opportunities...

But somehow I doubt OP has that kind of option to consider.  I haven't finalized anything yet but I hope she's planning on going into public service or solo if she goes to FAM.  And most of the folks i saw in state gov't in Tally were UF and FSU grads...their alumni network is like a million strong. lol.

Black Law Students / Re: Debunking the Mystique of Top 20 Law Schools
« on: October 29, 2009, 08:09:06 PM »
I once knew a girl who was so wrapped up in elitism and rankings she got into NYU, Columbia, Stanford and Harvard, but got dinged at Yale and based on that 1 ding decided not to go to law school at all.

No, I'm not kidding.

1. I love that screen name you have...says so much in 3 words.

2. OMG BWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAA...s o what is this genius doing now?

Black Law Students / Re: Does having Dreads or locks matter
« on: October 29, 2009, 06:11:10 PM »
As a black female with dreads (I understand the gender bias for women with dreads) I am all for black men keeping their hair neat and professional. In order for the powers that be to be tolerant of other cultures, it may require black men with dreads to refuse to cut them if that's not their desire. I know a couple of my good friends who cut their dreads for a job they ended up hating anyway, and it was evident from the outset. If an employer has a problem with your hair during the interview process, best believe that's only the tip of the ice berg. That employer may STILL discriminate against you until you realize it wasn't ur dreads at all, its just the culture of that job does not embrace the diversity they may be advertising.

I personally cannot stand it when people only see dreads in the limited sense, the big Rass dreads that grow out like tumble weeds. There are a variety of ways dreads can be kept, and if you ever seen a professionsl man or woman with dreads, it adds a polish and poise to their look and demeanor.

Since we live in a tight job market, I understand the consequences of a man who refuses to cut his dreads for a job, we simply do not have the luxury right now. But, this problem will not go away once the economy gets better, you may still be confronted with individuals (black or white) who cannot get over your dreadlocks or have negative, LIMITED, connotations about it. My lil bro will be growing his dreads soon, my mom has dreads, and so do I. Just like gay rights and women's reproductive rights, people need to learn to accept and embrace individuality and its up to US dreadheads out there to demand our respect too.
dreads and gay rights are being compared now?  hairstyle vs. sexual preference?

oh boy.

discrimination based on hairstyle is not prohibited by law.  Law offices don't rush to hire brilliant white kids with neon blue mohawks either.  And law is one of the most conservative fields out there...there are always exceptions to the rule, but the rule remains...

From Paul L. Caron, TaxProf Blog: ranks the 195 law schools by 1L attrition rates.  (The ABA Section on Legal Education publishes aggregate attrition rates, and each school's attrition rate is available on its official ABA data sheet.)  Here are the 25 law schools with the highest attrition rates according to, along with the school's 2009 U.S. News overall ranking:

   1. Whittier (51.5% 1L attrition, #161 in U.S. News)
   2. Touro (37.4%, #171)
   3. Golden Gate (36.9%, #174)
   4. Western State (32.6%, not ranked)
   5. Jones School of Law (32.3%, not ranked)
   6. Widener (30.5%, #179)
   7. St. Thomas University (28.5%, #174)
   8. Barry (27.6%, #181)
   9. Liberty (27.1%, not ranked)
  10. Thomas M Cooley (26.0%, #181)
  11. Florida Coastal (23.7%, #171)
  12. California Western (23.6%, #156)
  13. Valparaiso (23.4%, #143)
  14. Florida International (23.3%, #153)
  15. Capital (22.8%, #161)
  16. Louisville (22.5%, #100)
  17. North Carolina Central (22.1%, #168)
  18. Detroit Mercy (21.9%, $163)
  19. Nova Southeastern (21.8%, #158)
  20. Oklahoma City (21.0%, $168)
  21. Willamette (21.0%, #137)
  22. Western New England (20.7%, #171)
  23. Northern Kentucky (20.2%, #156)
  24. University of The District of Columbia (20.0%, #181)
  25. Franklin Pierce (19.9%, #131)

With the economy and the over over abundance of law schools and graduates, how in good conscious can the ABA justify keeping these school accredited.  They are all abominations.  And Louisville.... SHAME ON YOU!

As I read somewhere is actually to these schools' CREDIT that they kick people out at a higher rate than the top schools...because it proves, if youthink about it, that they ARE teaching the same law at the same quality as the upper schools...the upper schools are just more SELECTIVE and only let people in who they are MORE than reasonably sure can cut it.

These schools are not poorer in the material taught, they are poorer in SELECTIVITY.  So whereas if i am admitted to harvard i can pretty much be reinforced in the idea that i WILL graduate and pass the bar because the VAAAST majority of their admits do just that...admittance to cooley or wherever still leaves me big doubts on finishing because they routinely let people in who can't actually make it through law school and can't pass the bar.

Think about it...a less selective school, if they are teaching what harvard is teaching, SHOULD have a much higher dropout rate!

Thank you Global Moderator!

Read the entire LSAC site as can really answer a lot of questions.

Studying for the LSAT / Re: How many preptests should I take/study?
« on: October 29, 2009, 10:41:50 AM »
It's rather hard to give you a definitive answer re: number of preptests to take. I've heard/read high scorers taking as few as 5, and as many as 50. Myself, I took probably 25, and I scored a 173.

Ultimately, it's the quality of prep that will matter for your improvement.

your first raw practice test before studying, what did you get?

And how frequently did you take the 25-30 before the lsat?  once a week?  or...?

Studying for the LSAT / Re: New Comer Help!!
« on: October 29, 2009, 10:22:01 AM »
It feels like i am rearranging furniture in my head. This is so stress. Reevaluating my life is driving me crazy on top of realizing all the mistakes i made so far. It's exhausting.

I appreciate the advice of what not to do, anymore is very appreciated. I feel like i've lost and i haven't started. What a baby!

Don't think like that.  We all have our down days. I felt a little bit like I"m always taking too long to do things when i realized this semester is just too many ups and downs to sit down and get the grade I want on the LSAT (as in, study enough to where Iam confident and correct enough to do it).

But I get over it and visualize the end goal in my head.  That's what got me to graduation the semester i had 7 classes after having many obstacles including severe illness delay my graduation.  I felt like giving up and saying forget this I'm TIRED...but I visualized myself in the cap and gown with the level of honours I wanted, crossing the stage and DONE with it and HAVING a degree that no one can take from me.

Obviously got it done else I wouldn't be here planning on law. lol.

Now read again what i said about how to get ready.

And don't feel bad it's only over the summer I realized everything i need to do to get ready for law school and that the LSAT is WAYYYYY more serious than i thought it was.

But that's me, I'm the type to research something so thoroughly that I pretty much became a go-to for advice on the law school thing weeks after inhaling a whole lot of info from everywhere on it.

I've even started reading the pre-law handbooks for different universities...from the schools' websites...they all have different little things in them that it's good to know.

I know what I have to do to be able to get in, get out, and be a success with law school.

I even know what I would have to do all throughout law school to set myself up to go solo right after law school.  (Of course if i can get a job for even 1 or 2 years right out, that's great, but I won't be one of these folks dying and hyperventilating if the jobs don't work out, because i am not going for law to just "get a job"...the whole point is my own business and i feel strongly enough about 2 areas of law that are NEEEEVER short of work, and in the case of one field I have a good base of contacts to start with already from folks back home, that I don't have to be too stressed about starting out, cause i am researching everything from years ahead.)  Not to mention I already know the academics of running a business since that is my undergrad the accounting and marketing necessities are already in my brain.  And I am not afraid of hard work.  I've cleaned crap in a bathroom working in a gas station (someone was drunk or something and managed to get it EVERYWHERE...buckets of bleach and pine sol omggggggg!!!)...if I can do that, I can do this.

I find most of people's disillusionment with this field is poor planning.  They did not give themselves enough time to develop all their options fully.  Not enough time to take the LSAT and KILL it, not far enough in advance planning on career options aside from banging one's head against biglaw doors and other doors that are not hiring, or simply not hiring YOU.  The point of PROFESSIONAL degrees (doctor, lawyer, nurse, for example) is that you can take this one same profession anywhere you want and set up shop.  ARNP's can actually have their own primary practice like doctors...I've seen one and my cousin who is a doctor confirmed it.  These are not supposed to be dying for a job like someone with a generalist degree that can hold many different job no no. 

Know why you are going, the goal you are trying to reach, and break it down in reverse to what you need to accomplish that.  Top down approach...bottom up approach to law school will find you coasting along being blown hither and yon by the tides of fate.

Are you looking to go into biglaw, to work for the gov't and nonprofits, or to work for firms in your local area?  This is probably the first thing to answer.  Cause if it's biglaw, you need to to look at the typical LSAT scores that get into the schools THEY recruit from (generally t25 or t14 to be really safe) and score accordingly, if it's gov't/nonprofit you need to attend a school with an LRAP, and if it's a local firm you are fine with going to any well-regarded local (in the state or nearby) law school.

That's not all inclusive advice but it gives you an idea of the different focus points depending on your goal.  I've also seen on this board that basically, if you didn't get into a t14 (plus howard, where biglaw recruits as well), then go to a school located in the area you want to live and practice law in after graduation.

That's the one point I haven't really decided yet, actually...that and which of the top 10 schools i would apply to early decision, if any.  But that's minor cause i have a good 20 schools I plan to apply to, from the top of the food chain to whatever's near the bottom that my gpa easily matches.  Right now I am just trying to sort myself out so by January the latest I can resume fulltime studies for the June LSAT...and I plan to have my LOR's done after going back to my school's town to put in face time with the teachers i have in mind in the spring...and work on my personal statement...I want to have everything except the LSAT done and ready and that if i take the LSAT in June and have to retake september, that's ALL i have to do...I am hoping my june prep is enough to get the score i want still...because the DAY the doors open to accept admission apps next fall I plan to be one of the first things they see! :)

Chin up get a planner and note this year's admission open dates and early decision dates for every school you are interested in.  Fill in all the LSAT dates between now and next June...and then fill in the dates the scores are said to be made available...and any other deadlines such as the fin. aid app.deadline at each of your schools, the housing app. deadline if applicable...

That will give you a good idea of when to have everything done.  Make notes of which schools require excess crap and which ones require less than usual (# of LORs, dean's cert, etc etc).

Honestly there is so much to do it will take the year to get it all done without stressing out like you're about to do now.  Write down all the schools' contact info in the planner so if you think of some school-specific question you can look them up and call them and ask easily.

Oh, and write down their tour days for prospective students, the LSAC law forums nearest you...

And any nice perks or downsides to each school you're interested in.

For example, Brigham Young university has on campus family housing.

University of Miami (the law school) is in an excellent public school zone.

University of DC (UDC) has it's own metro stop on the rail line (no train-then-bus crap to get there)

Cornell is in what appears to be a nice, quality, part of new york, with easy access to's the only Ivy league that is both somewhere people under retirement age might want to live, AND without the impossible rent prices around the Columbia area.

University of Michigan has the most beautiful law school, and their customer service is very nice.  And prompt with requested mailings.

I note little "silly" things like that.  Whatever matters to you after the bread-and-butter logistics are verified.

I'm taking the test December 4th. I called the law school(s) of my choice and checked to see if I'd be fine applying for fall 2010 if I took the LSAT in December. I'm taking a Princeton Review accelerated prep course from now till December 1st. It will be tight, but I'm sure everything will work out. I'm so excited to moving to the next phase of my long term plan.

But be cautious.  If you don't feel that you've maxed out your LSAT potential and there's still plenty of room to improve, think about taking a year off.  But if you're feeling great, good luck!
thanks, thats a good point. I'll know more when I start taking these practice test, but I'm pretty sure i'll be able to capitalize on the momentum. I'm pretty dead set against taking a year off, so I'm sure that will be  an incintive for me to do well


Well good luck, what i've read is that it is a test that can be just take as many tests as you can even outside of the ones they give, time yourself (cause i see that seems to f. up many many people), and go in there like you OWN the LSAT! ROFL 

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