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I wonder if people realize if you have a bachelor's degree you are never eligible for a pell grant or any federal grants no matter how poor etc you are?

And that if you are making 14k with 3 kids it won't matter if you have a husband or parent or whatever that makes more?

And that law schools except in rare circumstances require your PARENTS' information for financial aid purposes as well cause their rules are still in the olden days of when only rich people went to college and their parents of course helped them pay their way through?  It's different from the rules of other grad schools that's why the financial aid might not be going as you planned.

But of course find a way to blame others for your own personal problems. It's the American way. *rolls eyes*

If someone's parents are from North Africa, can they claim URM status as an African American? ???

North African countries have multiple races going on, not just white, not just black...often mixed.

I would say they have to use whatever race or race mix they reported themselves as on their immigration/student visa paperwork, period.  Not suddenly remembering you have some negro in you now that it can shave a few dollars off your tuition bill or add some grease to your law school app wheels.  The point of the URM is to bring it to the attention of the admissions committee "here is an applicant who is from a racial group whose percentage of the population in law school and the legal profession is severely less than their percentage of the population in the United States."

This means:

1. If North African countries represent .1% of the U.S. population, no one cares about increasing their enrollment if they represent .89% of the law school/legal population...cause they are pretty much properly reflected.

2. If a black male represents about 6% of the U.S. population (the other 6% being the black females to make a total of 12% blacks in the U.S. population), and they are only 1% of the law school/legal alert, hello, something is wrong with that, so the powers that be will make the effort to fix it.  Keep in mind from the person is black no one cares where their blackness first entered the earth long as they are legal or will be legally in the country, cause they'll be counted on the next census if they're here for this black male could be from the Caribbean or an African country (as a significant number of Ivy League black males are, which caused black American professors and others to change the complaint from not enough blacks to not enough AMERICAN blacks getting admitted), or a native son.

3. If a white male represents 33% of the US population (rough rounding, don't nitpick...and the other 33% is white females to represent 66% of the nation's total population being white)...and they represent 40% of the total law school/legal population (with maybe another 35% of the law school/legal population being white female for a total of 75% of the law being white) news flash don't need that many of them in there, they are oversaturating the market.

It's all about finding a representative balance as much as possible.  Because it was unnatural forces that created that imbalance in the first place.

Not a hard concept folks let's just deal with this and move on...

AND FOR THE RECORD the diversity statement allows non-upper class/middle class whites to showcase what they bring to the table as far as their viewpoint...they could be socio-economically diverse, they could have survived trauma such as abuse or the foster care system, they could have been an Olympic contender, they could have done any number of things that overcame some adversity.

Race is one factor, and the U.S. has a history of purposely screwing with people because of their race, so now the country does what it can to undo the barriers and EFFECTS of those barriers in present times.  Those whose forefathers got a distinct advantage from skin colour alone, are now overrepresented in most fields and the established networks (remember networking is the way to get jobs these days?) are skewed towards their population because of the past exclusion of those of other colours, so they didn't get IN much less to set up a network for this generation...

Find out what makes you different and bring it up on your diversity statement...URM category is obsessed over a lot by people who it doesn't even apply to...smh.

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Nova Law School- Any good??
« on: March 25, 2011, 06:21:36 AM »
I am not applying to any schools with drop out rates in the double digits. Sorry I want to know that after all my hard damn work trying to get in, once I'm in I'd have to be actually trying to fail out to fail out.

But don't you think that wouldn't apply to you no matter where you go?  The lower tiered schools aren't booting out their best students.

I agree with your logic:  they're opening the doors wide, giving opportunities to people who otherwise couldn't go.  But if they can't hack it, they're sending them packing. 

If you're a person who could get admitted to better schools than that, if you went to the lower ranked school, you wouldn't be one of the folks they're weeding out, right?

Good point.  I might reconsider then and phrase it as: if the ONLY schools that will accept me have double-digit attrition rates, I won't go to law school.

I guess I would have one more wrench in the works if I'm accepted nearly everywhere I decide to apply...but only get a full scholarship from one with high failure rates...cause I want to have the freedom to exercise ALL options of a JD immediately upon graduation...can't do that adding too much debt to what I already have.  And if i stop working to do law school...I would need the financial aid to live off, not to be sucked up by tuition.

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Nova Law School- Any good??
« on: March 24, 2011, 12:03:58 PM »
That is why I post here because it is very scary for people considering tier 4/3 schools when people exaggerate horror stories such as 25% of the class gets kicked out. Not that you did, but people do and it is scary and you don't know or what to believe. All I am trying to say ever is that GGU and tier 4's are not some horrible places where the professors are doing meth during class. It is a law school and people are quite smart and the professors have a lot of experience and are quite knowledgeable. You learn the law at any law school that is the point of it. Use your common sense and know that Nova or Barry will not open the same doors as Harvard, but they are not terrible places bent on ruining your life. If you want to be a lawyer then go to law school that is it nothing else can be said about it. It will be more difficult to make money find employment from Nova, but it will be far from impossible and odds are you will end up with something.

Honestly I don't think people analyze the drop out rate properly.

It's a GOOD thing the poorer ranked schools kick out folks in high proves they are teaching the same thing the higher ranked schools are teaching.

Just the higher ranked schools if you get in you know their admissions standards pretty much ensure you have what it takes to graduate and become a lawyer (watch the bar pass rate)...while the lower ranked schools getting in means nothing really cause they WILL let you in knowing full well you can't make the cut.

One type of schools does all its filtering before the first day of class.

The other type does half the filtering before and half the filtering after...

I am not applying to any schools with drop out rates in the double digits. Sorry I want to know that after all my hard damn work trying to get in, once I'm in I'd have to be actually trying to fail out to fail out.

Black Law Students / Re: FAMU Law School
« on: March 24, 2011, 11:54:46 AM »
My ex Girlfriend graduated from FAMU COL in 2008 She had the worst trouble with her financial aid "Mrs Washington" there was total chaos at that school. She scored a 153 on her LSAT. She was weight listed at the other Schools in Fl. that she applied for, except Nova SE where she was accepted at $40,000 a year. I don't know about now, but there was so much dysfunction at FAMU. She sent so many letters out to Law Firms for her L2 summer internship and barley got one. I would definitely find some 3L students and pick their brain for information before sending in a application. I have been dating a girl recently that graduated from Stetson, and she had no problem what so ever with her three years there. She passed the BAR on the first try; unlike most of the FAMU grads. I know that FAMU had a hard time finding good Professors to teach for them. I do hope they get their act together, because they could be a very good solution for working class people who can't afford the bigger Universities. :D

Yeah it's a bigger risk than the law school loans at a poorly ranked school to be attending FAMU at some campus where you can't walk yourself physically in the financial aid office and grab a few people by collar (so to speak). lol.  I won't take that risk at ALL.

Black Law Students / Re: Black Law Student Discussion Board
« on: March 24, 2011, 11:49:53 AM »
You may have a point there.  After so many seasons of the same info over and over, we might have exhausted the advice necessary to apply to law school.  LOL!!!

But then again, the advice was but only 1 component to this community so it still doesn't quite explain the ghost town atmosphere of late.   Oh well...

Hi Everyone,  I am glad that I found this page while surfing for information on Tulsa Law School. 

To address something that I feel should be duly noted by anyone new to this site...This site isn't new...I am exhausted from reading the 1000's of posts by potential law school applicants and the matching replies from the Moderator and everyone else who has something to contribute to this arduous journey...

Once I finally registered (and today was my first time on the site)  I was accosted by a poll asking why Newbies don't post...Well, Obviously, (in my Antoine Dodson voice) over the past nine years ya'll have covered just about everything! But I am glad that the site is still here so that I can a question that applies specifically to me.  Plus,  I think that there may have been some changes in the current admission standards  since we've entered the depression and "the changing economy" blah , blah, blah....

So no questions tonight just a couple of observations. Thanks to everyone who has contributed and continues to contribute.  I have gained a lot of insight into the LSAP....(I thought I would throw my own acronym up in here)  I'm not going to say how long it took me to finally figure our what "URM" was..LOL!!!  Which reminds me, there could be some sort of legend for the abbreviations used in these discussions...I had to figure out T14 too...Love the site and I look forward to chatting with you all soon.

I think people who may be peeping and want to ask a question get turned off by seeing those who do ask get either no response, or immediate responses telling them to go search the boards.  The board stays fresh with fresh responses to the what might be the same old questions, but in a new economic and legal climate that's still changing and hasn't decided what it's going to be yet...

I see it on other sites too...people are just too hostile to newbies who may not even know how to search the even the site will warn you about responding to posts older than x amount of days...

Black Law Students / Re: FAMU Law School
« on: March 24, 2011, 11:46:08 AM »

I am glad people attending the school are having a good time, and that they are appealing to people from around the world.  I do hope they rise, and that their graduates give back by providing opportunities for internships and post-grad employment to the ones behind them.  And I can see there was a real need for folks in Orlando to have a law school accessible to them (plus, unlike many of the rest of non-Miami Florida law schools, it's actually located in a city with an international airport).  UF and FSU might be the highest ranked, but they really do not have any curb appeal being in rather racist small town locations.

I wouldn't consider it because of previous experience with FAMU's administrative side...(and not wanting to live in Orlando). 

How have you found the experience with financial aid and such?

I am not a native Floridian, but have lived in various part of the state. When my wife and I moved to Miami in the 80's we never experienced any issues at all. We both are from NYC and harbored some stereotypical thoughts about how an interracial couple would fare in the South. So anyone concerned about going to the either of the top ranked law schools in Florida should not use the poster's comments as a factor in their decision.

I think generalizations about a city or town being "racist" are uncalled for. Tallahassee and Gainsville in 2010 are not the same as the "old South"

Say what you want but with a black school pumping out graduates by the truckload, and many with good grades/resumes at that, seeing tallahassee full and overflowing in the government and public sector with FSU GRADS at every level kind of quietly, subtly bunks your claim.

EDUCATED black people are not getting ahead in Tallahassee compared to other cities that have an HBCU in their midst (DC metro, Atlanta metro, e.g.) nor compared to FSU grads and if you check out the more family friendly side of town with good schools (Killearn) versus where most of the black people in town live (SE side off Lake Bradford/Roberts areas) you realize what I am saying.  There is a bias in hiring practices there for any REAL jobs that a college graduate would be angling for that favors light, bright, and white FSU grads.  And that's saying a lot since the place is not that sharp of a job market to begin with.

As an actual student though who has none of these real world concerns, or as a family with two working people (any kind of job), this doesn't matter...the college side of town has tons of fun no matter the colour, and families can find affordable housing on the NE side of town where the good public schools are if they are both working.

But when it comes to law school the point is to look at not just IF anyone is getting jobs in the area you want to live and work after you get your JD, but WHO is getting the jobs...

Same way i looked at around at OVERALL (not the exceptions) who gets ahead in Tallahassee...there is a majority black school right there the town should have much better representation at all levels of professional and government life of that ease of access to educated talent.  A ton of companies have great relationships with FAMU and come every year and scoop up folks...most of the blacks that stay in tallahassee are stuck in a rut of a life, and the only way to progress out of it is to use any experience they got while there to transfer out of town.

Being able to have an interracial relationship in a college town doesn't prove anything about the racism that affects people getting ahead with that first foot in the door professionally and financially.  The amount of interracial sex going on between the major college campuses and even the minor ones, I don't know that anyone would know the difference between the casual sleeping around buddies and the husband and wife types unless they were looking for the ring.  Racism is everywhere but it's more pronounced in smaller places and I have friends that have encountered racism in Gainesville they didn't see in Tallahassee, and thats going from a masters program to a PhD.  Not from the school from the people in the community and at their child's school.

I have encountered some nasty condescending attitudes and lack of professionalism and competence from FSU's law school so definitely I wouldn't apply there personally if my life depended on it, but I wasn't even talking about the schools themselves when i said racism I meant underlying things observed with the towns and reports from the upwardly mobile (or trying to be) in these towns.

I went to law school in the mid west in 2007  (from NYC) to my first choice, a Top 100 school. I was unprepared for the academic program involved and began experiencing severe anxiety towards the end of my first semester due to the pressure of family obligations 2000 miles away and returning to school at a fairly advanced age (39). I was given the bad advice by a teaching assistant to proceed with my finals because "no one gets below a 'C' with the curve;" my grades were: B, D-, and an F. I took a medical leave of absence to have the symptoms of anxiety and depression I was experiencing evaluated and treated by university medical professionals. I returned the following Fall semester to repeat the classes, and found myself unable to balance work, and school, and still a little bit rattled by having receiving the poorest grades of my lifetime in my first semester. With the loneliness I was feeling, symptoms of depression, and concern about not being able to work as a part-time student in the prime earning years of my life, I withdrew from school. Two months later, I immediately regretted the decision, and was re-admitted for the third time to retake the first semester already $30,000.00 in debt. My third semester was somewhat of a success however I made two critical mistakes: I did NOT take practice exams in preparation for two finals, and handed a paper that represented 60% of my grade late by twelve hours; I ended up with a B-, C, and C this time around. The anxiety of being on academic probation and having little margin for error eventually resulted in more severe health problems for myself, an inability to concentrate, pressure from my family and friends, a decreased and weakened confidence in myself, and I eventually withdrew from law school altogether, $79,000.00 in debt. I will always regret having quit, even with the mounting debt, and not securing the J.D., and not having found a way to enhance my mental fortitude, find the right help and resources and the right mindset and support system to get the job done. I am now faced with trying to explain to my family and friends what went wrong, address psychological issues I never experienced before attending law school, and returning to a career I have been absent from for three years without being able to explain why I went to law school and did not work for three years and do not have a law degree to show for it. If I had to do it all over again, I would have went to a Tier Three school and a little more relaxed environment for someone my age - the first year is the toughest and if I was successful I could transfer; otherwise I could remain in the Third Tier School and earn one of the most coveted of graduate degrees: a J.D. Think carefully about yourself, especially if you have been out of school for sometime, about what you are capable of, and what this degree might mean to you. I now dread turning 55 without a professional degree, and not a minute goes by that I do not wish I knew in 2007 what I know now; as of today, the law school experience, while providing some of the fondest memories of my life, has in many ways ruined my life. A law school curriculum, particularly for non-conventional students, should be designed to give such students every possible chance for success (e.g., three exams per class in the first semester, not one final and an automatic dismissal for students with a G.P.A. of 2.20 or less).

wow...this post is SCARY.

And makes the case for (if possible to do and still pass your classes) hanging on to a continuous work history in case things don't work out...of course there's always temp agencies to get your foot back in the door after a long absence!

For the record I am not saying people don't have time to blog obviously I am in school right now, writing this post. However, it would be quite strange of me to complain if I received bad grades and complained about unfair my school was when I have posted 1500 times or something like that on this board. The amount of time I spend writing on this board could be put to better use. Thankfully my grades are good, but it would be strange if I complained about how fair everything was when I could spend time working studying to improve my grades.

Therefore, I think it is quite strange when someone claiming to be hard at work looking for a job and saying how unfair the market is has time to rant about how unfair it is when their time could be devoted to finding  a job. It seems the people most negative about law school etc are the ones that take no accountability for their decisions. Education is and always has been a  risk and law school is no different.

I honestly think a lot of people come into law school straight from undergrad thinking law school will open all kinds of doors, but nothing will come easy. I graduated from college expecting every job to come easy to me, but there are plenty of people with B.A's in this world. I found a job, but it took time and I was not paid nearly as well as I would have liked. I am expecting the same thing when I graduate from law school.

Then I agree with everything else you said do your research before going to law school. However, don't just look at the ABA and U.S. News they do a mediocre job of telling you what you are in for. Bar Passage is important to look at, but knowing how many volumes a law school's library has is more or less irrelevant. Call Local Lawyers as you suggested and you can also find alumni pretty easily. Alumni are the people you want to listen to because they have first hand knowledge about the school and no motive to sugarcoat anything. If they loved their experience at their school they will you about it, if they feel like there school did a terrible job and ripped them off they will let you know. You can look at law firm websites and search for lawyers by school to get contact info. The Nevada Bar website also lets you search for attorney by school and I am unaware of any other state bar website that does this, but again this is a good starting point to get first hand knowledge from people that actually attended a school. One thing that happens on this board and the internet in general is people that have not even taken the LSAT yet alone sat in one law school class. Go on rants about schools and law school itself. I being a second year law student am not much better, because I barely know anything about the legal field. I have been through 1 3/4  years of law school and a few internships, which have left me feeling like I still have a lot to learn.

Remember when looking at data etc that a law school has a motive to  sugarcoat their info, because they want you to come to their school and pay them. A perfect example of this is how schools keep employment statistics. When you pay 100K plus to get a law degree, you expect a decent paying job. However, their employed statistics count unpaid internships as employed. Working as a fry cook at McDonald's employed. A good site to find real salary information is . This gives actual salary information, which is hard to come by from any school.

Understood.  And for the record I like having both sides come on the boards or the blogosphere...although now that I think about it the lawyers busy liking their lives are on my fb...I used facebook to find alumni and get info from them since they are my age and current in the field...thanks for the input!

I used my state's bar website to find lawyers in the fields i'm interested in by zip code...I think it had a by school option too but if not i made sure ask them about the culture etc of whatever school they were listed for, if it was a school on my list of possibles.  One of them pointed out that the evening part time classes are wayyyy friendlier and laid back at their alma mater than the vibe of the day classes, and she didn't like the hypercompetitiveness of the day class.  She also felt I actually had an edge in what I want to do since I will be able to identify with the potential clients being from/part of their community and not an outsider.   So my instincts seem to be working pretty well so far as to what I need to do to get where I want to go.  Let's hope it holds up cause all the research sure hasn't turned up good news all the time. :(


BUT, this is the absolute best case scenario in which you land a very high paying job at a top law firm with substantial salary increases and a growing economy that permits the assumption of a consistent bonus ... and of course that you remain at your job for 3 years (not burning out).


December 31, 2006 -- The city largest, most prestigious law firms are suffering from serious brain drain. Young, Gen-X lawyers in their third to fifth year in the business are walking away from their $200,000-a-year positions in record numbers -- at times without another job in view. The reason? They are unhappy with their Blackberry lifestyle -- being tethered to the job 24/7 and having to rush back to the office at a moment notice when e-mail orders pop up on the ubiquitous PDA. The exodus of law firm associates is unprecedented, according to NALP which found that 37% of associates leave large firms within the first 3 years. A whopping 77% of associates leave within 5 years, according to NALP latest survey. That is up sharply from recent years, and the resulting brain drain is wrecking havoc on law firms.

There is a significant drain on your potential as a firm if you cannot mitigate it, says Mike, a partner at a 400-plus lawyer Big Apple firm, said of the young legal eagle exodus. Mike, like many lawyers interviewed for this story, spoke only if neither they or their firm were identified, fearing client losses. While increased attrition is a typical effect of a relatively healthy economy, Mike claimed, It would be a mistake to say it is all driven by the economics. The big-firm brain drain is also giving partners a major case of agita -- forcing them to do the yeoman grunt work usually assigned to associates. In addition, the firms are being forced to scramble to fill the mid-level talent void. Some are even doing the previously unheard of -- hiring from second-tier law schools.

John, a fifth year associate at a prominent Wall Street firm, is, like many young lawyers, walking out the door. He is leaving for a coveted in-house position at an investment bank. \'I am just waiting for my bonus,\' the 31-year-old says. In fact, the next major wave of legal brain drain will occur over the next few weeks as young lawyers jump ship after collecting their bonus checks. \'It is the mid-levels, the 3rd through 5th years that are leaving, so you are losing people you have spent lots of money on training, and just as they start to run things, they leave, and firms become less profitable, Mike, the partner, adds. John, the associate ready to leave, notices the effect of the mid-level brain drain at his own firm. Gone, he said, is the traditional pyramid of power, from the numerous first-year associates up to select first-year partners.

It is gone from a pyramid to a strange hourglass shape, John says. It is bizarre. Now you will see deal teams with a partner and a first-year associate, with nobody in the middle. You should see the partners. They are doing the work of mid-levels to pick up the slack. And even though they make over $1 million, they never see their family. There is little reward in that for me. Tagg Grant, 31, could not agree more. The self-described \'recovering lawyer\' removed himself from firm life last year, as a third-year corporate associate. I did not want to sleep on my office floor anymore or wonder if I had a change of underwear somewhere in my file cabinet, he says.

LOLS the story SURE has nce THAT article was written huh?  What a difference a couple years makes!

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