« on: June 02, 2009, 01:41:02 AM »
"believe it or not but some laws come out of moral standards..and some things which are morally questionable may not be considered legal or illegal...until they come up...prostitution is a victimless crime...but it is illegal...morally questionable...perhaps...but as far as "Waterdunking" or "waterboarding"...eh? prosecution is a waste of time...aye think if you spent some time in a nicaraguan jail for something miniscule...and were tortured...really tortured...you would think how wonderful our country is that the usa does not torture prisoners...however if one or two dangerous prisoners were tortured so that american lives were saved along the way...then you would be able to sleep at night..."
My argument isn't that the U.S. is as bad or worse than X. My argument is simple and straight forward. Maybe reading it again will help.
"we are still bound by our laws...and if the usa sometimes has to bear down and do some dirty work once in a while to save lives...so be it...we can go back to being principled...and aye think it naive to think that there aren't other prisoners in our recent past who were tortured."
Fine, maybe it's even a moral imperative to torture under certain circumstances. That doesn't mean that it's a) legal or b) should not be prosecuted, for the reasons given above. It's like quixote took a tab... tilting at invisible windmills and non-existent straw men.
"khmer rouge...ha ha ha..you mean "kilo romeo??"....good comparison...yes...usa is like "charley".ha ha ha..."
The point is that one of the factors that keeps governments from devolving into that type of regime is being bound by the rule of law.
"the waterboarding question is not going to be prosecuted and "waterboarding" is not necessarily the method where k.s.m. gave useful information...sometimes laws come out of moral concepts...so...morally aye think it is questionable to have waterboarded k.s.m...but if lives were saved then who cares? they essentially tricked this guy into giving information which helped to save american lives...so? so what?..k.s.m is still alive...right?...who cares..no...really? who cares?...those who are sore over bush being in power for eight years?...obama doesn't even care...he wants to move on...and our economically hampered country needs to move on...as far as my concerns as a taxpaying citizen aye think it is a waste of time and money to go back and rehash...just like aye thought it was a waste of time and money to go back and rehash the monica lewinsky lie."
I care. People who think that rule of law should mean something in fundamental areas like war crimes care. Next question...
"aye believe in the death penalty as a form of retribution...and to be applied in certain cases.."
And that's precisely why I don't believe in it. It moves beyond punishment to state-enacted revenge. That's one of the fundamental purposes of Law: to curtail the cycle of revenge and the "accursed share" of violent vengeance.
"aye am glad you understand the point of morally questionable decisions...and their consequences..."
No, not really. You don't want there to be consequences.
"...aye think aye am right that we will move on beyond this...and sorry if that is cold...but rehashing is a waste of time..."
I think we'll brush it under the rug as well. Like I said, I don't see you as a cynic though. More a wide-eyed innocent who trusts institutions of power far too much.
"our new democracy will continue and other nations will continue to torture their citizens...in this case aye am a cynic."
"um...and you might want to check those cases..."waterboarding" is gray area? because dunking a guys head in a toilet is assault...but is it torture? is it "waterboarding"?"
Maybe you should read the cases more closely. Here's a start:
the water cure, "a specie of torture well known to the bench and bar of the country" is described reasonably explicitly citing another case:
"he was laid on the floor, and a white man stood on his body and they administered to him the “water cure,” which consisted in pouring water into his nose,"