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Messages - Liz Lemon

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161
Where should I go next fall? / Re: Pros/Cons of Cornell?
« on: March 18, 2009, 10:40:13 AM »
i know some law students who live in the valentine apartments.  you do have to cross route 79 to get to campus, but there's no hill involved.  i used to live in a separate complex owned by the same company and i was very pleased with the building.

162
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Death sentences for rapists
« on: March 13, 2009, 02:23:02 PM »
anyway, this discussion has made me think about my experience a lot, and i agree that other assaults can be equally if not more traumatic.  i have never been held up at gun point, but reading your stories has made me realize that if i were in that situation, i would be a lot more traumatized than i was when i was raped.

Jerzgrl, thank you so much for sharing your experiences.  I hope you never have to know if you're right that other kinds of violence might traumatize you more than being raped did.  Obviously, you were in a position -- being young, sexually inexperienced, and violated by someone you trusted -- where being raped was unimaginably traumatic.  I hope nothing I said about my own experience seemed to trivialize that.  I agree with Cady (and others) about the way societal expectations, some of which are really effed up, shape our relationships with our bodies and sexualities, etc., but our experiences of fear (and anger and diminished self-worth) after sexual assault are still very real/valid.

not at all.  i appreciate that you and mbw shared your experiences as well, it takes a great deal of courage to do that and i don't think i would have shared my experience if the two of you hadn't.  it helped me put a lot of things about my own experience into perspective.  we all react to our experiences in different ways (all of which are valid) and it helps to hear how other people felt in similar situations.


163
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Death sentences for rapists
« on: March 13, 2009, 01:06:48 PM »


And I'll join in the Cady love fest.  I do want to say that I'm not dismissing the effect of rape on it's victims/survivors - I know it took me quite a while to get to the point where I am now about my own assault.  But I do still believe there are things worse than rape, but that's clearly from my own personal experience, whereas other survivors' mileage may vary.

I didn't think you were! I hope that was clear. It was just a point at which I saw a similar discussion (rather unfortunately) get derailed because people felt that their trauma wasn't being acknowledged as real.

... I just exalt sexual autonomy more than other aspects of physical autonomy. 

Why?

I suppose it's some sort of deep-seated Christian value set that I hold.  I'm really trying to shake it guys, I'm just trying to be honest that that's my first reaction.

It's good to be honest about it (and to just be thinking about these things in the first place). And we are taught that it's a fate worse than death, even still, and yes, rape can be profoundly traumatic and is wielded as a weapon. I do think, though, that a close inspection shows that a lot of the concern with rape, historically, has to do with property rights and with controlling fertility (even in the Bible). I mean, okay. Why do you want your wife to be a virgin when you get married? You know no one else could have impregnated her already. The kids will be yours. Same reason you don't want anyone raping her after you're married. Does an unwelcome assault make someone less of a woman? No. But a lot of the trauma for many rape survivors comes from the idea that they're "damaged goods" - to which I say "holy bejeezus we need to get The Patriarchy out of our vaginas, stat." And these ideas are perpetuated, imo, when we do say that rape is per se the worst thing a person can do to someone.

Bodily autonomy is important. I can only imagine it's terrifying to be so physically/mentally/emotionally controlled by someone that they can, in some varying state of undress, put something inside of you. But unless there's something magical that is damaged or lost upon penetration (and note, here, that some rapes are performed with foreign objects, and it is not always the vagina that is penetrated)...how does it become The Worst Thing Ever?

in my personal experience, my assault took my virginity.  thankfully i was not physically assaulted or threatened in a way that would have killed me, but at the time it really did feel like the worst thing ever.  in my experience it was a date rape and i definitely felt like it was my fault, like i could have done something more to prevent it.  sometimes i still feel that way.  it freaked me out so much that i struggled to have physical contact with others for years.  i was admittedly young when all of this happened, perhaps if i was older and more mature i would have handled the situation better.

to be brutally honest, the worst part about losing my virginity in the process was when i was in a relationship with someone i loved and i knew that my first time wasn't going to be with him.  i would have much preferred to have sex for the first time with someone i loved and trusted and i eventually had to explain the situation to him.

i no longer see it as the worst thing ever, but at the time it really killed me.  i couldn't eat or sleep, and i had to just go to school and face my friends and family as if all was okay.  in college a similar situation happened to a friend of mine and it seriously affected her ability to function normally.  maybe it's more emotionally scarring if the rapist is a person you knew and trusted.  it becomes a violation of so much more than just your body.

i don't hold any deep beliefs about sex, and i didn't at the time.  i think my feelings were more influenced by the way our society portrays sex and virginity.  i realize these societal are very much based on religion but even movies as ridiculous as "american pie" put a lot of weight on being a virgin and the importance of your first time.  i see now how things like that made me feel like less of a person.

anyway, this discussion has made me think about my experience a lot, and i agree that other assaults can be equally if not more traumatic.  i have never been held up at gun point, but reading your stories has made me realize that if i were in that situation, i would be a lot more traumatized than i was when i was raped.

164
Recommendations / Re: Advice needed
« on: March 12, 2009, 10:35:07 AM »
thanks for the response, it's very helpful :)

165
Meta Discussion / Re: Why is LSD failing to TLS?
« on: March 11, 2009, 10:43:54 PM »
I actually thought Wally was being meta. Too much credit?

I thought that, too.


LSD is where i come to talk to real people, and get information. TLS is where i go to talk out my neruotic episodes... :D

hahahahahahaha me too!  while waiting for my february results, i spent my day on TLS so i would know when scores were coming out.  although i had quite the freakout earlier in the day, i was completely level-headed compared to the obsessive posters.  those people need case workers.

166
Where should I go next fall? / Re: What do y'all know about Marquette?
« on: March 11, 2009, 04:28:34 PM »
They are taking SJU out back right now.

dear lord i just checked the score, that's sad.  i'm looking forward to seton hall upsetting 'cuse this evening.

sorry that i don't know much about marquette.  i know they have a solid sports law program, so if that's something you're interested in, it's probably a great school for you.

167
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Death sentences for rapists
« on: March 11, 2009, 03:10:04 PM »
You raise good issues mb-dub.  

I don't really subscribe to the idea that rape is 'just another' violent assault.  There is an inherent and explicit sexual aspect to rape that is not engendered in other forms of assault.  I think how sexuality (and its importance to one's identity and dignity) is viewed makes a monumental difference in the perceived damage of the act of rape.

I guess my sexuality is one of the most important parts of myself, and my autonomy over who I share my body with is incredibly important.  That may be why I view rape as an especially heinous assault.  It strips a part of that autonomy forever.

You definitely have gotten me thinking much harder about the whole concept of rape though...I'll have to get back with more..

+1

it seems that most rapists commit their act as a means to exert control over another person.  it's grotesque, and not necessarily about getting off as much as it is about controlling and hurting another person.  you could say the same about assault and battery, but since rape is a violation of one's most sacred and personal parts, it's much worse than punching someone in the face.  think of the emotional turmoil rape victims deal with, the effects never go away.

Really?  Any more than someone else who is mugged for money or beaten due to racial/sexual orientation? Those are often premeditated as well.  And why is someone's genitals any more "personal and sacred" than any other part of them, especially like, well, their brain?  Having given birth to five children, through a process where literally dozens of different people have had access to those sacred and personal parts, I don't view them as so sacrosanct anymore.  But that's just me ;)

I think that much of the "emotional turmoil" is reflective of our societies stigmatization of rape, and the associated guilt burden placed upon the victim/survivor. 

people who beat their wives are generally people who "lose it" over minor things that set them off.  considering that many rape cases involve people lurking in stairwell/bushes or dropping GHB in someone's drink, it's clear that this is a more premediated crime, thus it is much worse than assault.

See above re: premeditation of other assault crimes.  And I disagree that spousal abuse is only a crime of "passion".  There are plenty of cases of premeditation there as well.

to be perfectly honest, my computer is being a piece of crap this afternoon and i didn't get a warning that there were more posts before i submitted.  i wouldn't have posted after reading your earlier post otherwise. 

i strongly admire your strength after such a terrible ordeal and i am so glad that you seem to be doing well.  but as you said, it is just you.  i agree that society puts a huge stigma on rape and that has to deal with much of the emotional problems that victims.  i don't really foresee these stimgas ever going away, regardless of how rapists are punished.  i don't really think of my genitals as being particularly sacred for similar reasons to yours, but i'm still certain that if anyone forced himself upon me, i would feel extremely violated.  my brain is sacred to me, but i feel like i share that with everyone i interact with every day (in the sense that my brain allows me to function and interact with others).  i do not share my genitals with everyone  ;)

168
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Death sentences for rapists
« on: March 11, 2009, 02:38:37 PM »
You raise good issues mb-dub.  

I don't really subscribe to the idea that rape is 'just another' violent assault.  There is an inherent and explicit sexual aspect to rape that is not engendered in other forms of assault.  I think how sexuality (and its importance to one's identity and dignity) is viewed makes a monumental difference in the perceived damage of the act of rape.

I guess my sexuality is one of the most important parts of myself, and my autonomy over who I share my body with is incredibly important.  That may be why I view rape as an especially heinous assault.  It strips a part of that autonomy forever.

You definitely have gotten me thinking much harder about the whole concept of rape though...I'll have to get back with more..

+1

it seems that most rapists commit their act as a means to exert control over another person.  it's grotesque, and not necessarily about getting off as much as it is about controlling and hurting another person.  you could say the same about assault and battery, but since rape is a violation of one's most sacred and personal parts, it's much worse than punching someone in the face.  think of the emotional turmoil rape victims deal with, the effects never go away.

people who beat their wives are generally people who "lose it" over minor things that set them off.  considering that many rape cases involve people lurking in stairwell/bushes or dropping GHB in someone's drink, it's clear that this is a more premediated crime, thus it is much worse than assault.

169
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Death sentences for rapists
« on: March 11, 2009, 01:56:14 PM »
tbh, I think I'm certain (and maybe most) instances of rape, I think I'd rather have my tax money go to keeping the criminal in jail as opposed to rehabilitating them to live a better life

me too.  i honestly think these people shouldn't coexist with mainstream society but i wanted to bring it up for sake of being more neutral.

if anyone deserves to be permanently institutionalized, it's a d-bag cruising match.com.  just in case your blood hasn't boiled enough today, i present you with the article:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27825997/

170
General Off-Topic Board / Re: Death sentences for rapists
« on: March 11, 2009, 01:49:01 PM »
Even with a 99.999999% level of certainty, I wouldn't go for it.
Even with a 99.999999% level of certainty, I wouldn't go for it.

thank you.  besides, it's more costly to execute a person than it is to pay for a life sentence.  i love my home state for figuring that out *jersey fist pump*

If we're talking about concerns for justice, though, I don't think cost should be a cardinal factor (unless justice for a rape victim somehow must take into account economic considerations for the society he/she lives in...I don't think it does).
.  

you're right, i apologize for bringing cost into play.  i'm so used to arguing against people who cry about their tax dollars paying to keep people in prison, it's like a natural reflex for me to bring it up.
I think that the limits people have imposed in this thread are generally good ones. 

Having never experienced being raped, or any involvement with it any way, I don't feel comfortable maintaining that one punishment is more correct than others.  I do think that there's a chance rapists fall into several categories which may need to be dealt with independently (if we're talking rehabilitation - which, to be honest, we are never talking about).

there are definitely independent cases.  not to change the subject entirely but it seems that repeat rapists have some serious disorders that need to be addressed.  i think it's difficult to rehabilitate repeat offenders but if rapists were more thoroughly screened and treated the first time they were imprisoned, maybe some repeat offenses could be avoided.

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