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Messages - bigs5068

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It does suck that she is having trouble finding a job, but as Thane said it is HARD! Honestly, if you think finding a job is hard wait until you have to actually work and deal with crazy clients requests etc. Honestly 150 resumes over 3 years is nothing. I sent out over 1,000 (approximately) during my 2L got interviews at 30 places and only 8 job offers. That is 992 failures and less than 1% success rate, but that is the world we live in. You have to hustle and this whole difficulty finding a job is not only applicable to law school. Lets not forget it is a "GLOBAL" recession and even if it wasn't nobody hands out jobs.

I honestly think the fact that she is asking for $50 million dollars just shows how delusional she is. Then her complaint is the employment numbers were skewed? Really? I imagine if she paid attention in her first year contracts class she would have learned about "puffery." Now if TJSL said "student name" we guarantee you a job at graduation if you attend TJSL then maybe she would have case. However, I cannot imagine any school anywhere saying that not even Harvard. Thane just described what happened when he started out and he was on law review at University of Texas a top school. I imagine he sent out more than 150 resumes and it sounds like he put significant effort into finding a job. I imagine there were some rejections along the way, but eventually he succeeded and I am sure in the first few years of his career there were some failures and maybe even a lay-off or firing. That is just what happens in "any" field.

These types of stories blow my mind. Even the New York times articles blow my mind that students simply cannot take any accountability for their decisions. They were "tricked,"? Really did TJSL go to this student's home and say you MUST come to our school and stay all three years. No. She made a decision as a college graduate, that did decently on the LSAT, and I am sure wrote a detailed personal statement explaining how hard working, dedicated, and determined she was. The school decided to let her in and she was given a legal education. Not only that she passed the bar. Again if she paid attention in 1st year contracts she woudl realize she entered into a contract and the consideration was money for legal education. TJSL got their money she got an education. No law school guarantees you a job and no educational institution anywhere in any field guarantees you a job. With the exception of Westpoint & Annapolis as I understand it.

Law School Admissions / Re: Law School Help
« on: June 27, 2011, 04:43:36 PM » is probably the best site to answer admission questions like this. You can see what numbers get you scholarships at certain schools.

In regards to the prestige question with a 3.5 157 you will probably get admitted into low tier 2 schools at best and be offered a substantial scholarship at a tier 3/4 school. In my opinion when faced with that decision you should take the money. This is because the U.S. News rankings outside the top 20 or so schools fluctuates so dramatically year by year that it is pointless. Look at the rankings and you will see how absurd it is like my personal favorite the current 11 way tie for 84th place. Realistically nobody cares that much if you go to the 83rd or 112th best school so take the money or go a school with in-state tuition if that is a possibility.

Now another to consider if you are offered a scholarship be careful of the conditions on the scholarship. Many school require you to maintain a 3.0 GPA, which to anyone that is offered a law school scholarship seems easy because you likely got above a 3.0 without breaking a sweat. This is not the way law school works and everybody got a 3.0 without breaking a sweat and the way law school grades are setup is that generally only %35 of the first year class can get a 3.0.  So remember to really take the conditions of any scholarship you get into consideration.

Well hopefully that helps somewhat and good luck to you .

Unreal when will law students take some accountability for their decisions it is simply embarrassing. I find it very hard to believe this woman could not find anything for 3 years especially considering I know two TJSL grads that have found jobs and are doing fine. I am certain TJSL never told this student or any student that graduating and passing the bar would guarantee them a job. This type of story disgusts me and I hope the judge in this case rips her a new one. I really hope the judge whips out her personal statement she wrote detailing how she handles adverserity and overcomes challenges etc and says so what happened to you that would be classic.

With regards to scholarships you need to be careful the 3.0 requirement is somewhat of a trick many law schools use. I got a scholarship to my school when entering and I needed to keep a 3.0 to maintain the scholarship, but only %35 of the first year students could have a 3.0 so there was a 65% chance I would lose it. I kept mine, but many people lost their's and in regards to the 15%, 10%, 5% it is nothing against you personally, but there is an 85% chance you won't be in the top 15%, 90% chance you won't be in the top 10, and 95% chance you won't be in the top 5%. Every student at every ABA school on the first day of school thinks they will be in the top 10%, but 90% of them are wrong. Remember at any ABA law school the majority of students are smart hard working people who want to be in the 10%. I don't think 0L's with scholarships are aware of this, because if you are offered a scholarship to an ABA school odds are you got a 3.0 in undergrad without breaking a sweat, but that is not how it works in law school. There are only so man A's and B's per class nobody no matter how well you know the material so be cautious of the conditions on scholarships.

With all that being said if you want to stay in NY then go to school in NY. Pace won't open doors outside of NY and Charlotte won't open doors outside of NC they are regional schools and if you attend Charlotte all the connections you make will be in NC and the practical reality is during the school year you will not be able to interview with anyone in NY or intern with anyone in NY if you are in Charlotte and vice versa if you are in NY. It is just simple geography I am sure if you attend Pace you could get an unpaid internship for the local D.A's office and same with Charlotte, but with the Charlotte D.A. It is just simple geography and nobody from NY is going to be coming to Charlotte law school to look for Grads. It is the only law school in Charlotte I believe so I am sure you could find something to do in Charlotte, but not NY.

Bottom line is if you want to be in NY go to law school in NY. There is a strong chance you will lose your scholarship at Charlotte or Pace and it is nothing against you personal just the reality of it so I would stay in NY if I was you. Well good luck to you and congrats on getting into law school and getting scholarship offers.

Good responses and thank you for the compliments. It is great the ABA & U.S. News are taking steps in the right direction by objectively listing employment statistics. The extremely "vague" placement criteria was literally a joke. My school does provide us with real stats and always has so I respect them for that. They have a very good measurement for their employment statistics which asks whether bar passage was required to obtain the position. We had 179 graduates and 95 obtained positions that required bar membership. 95 out of 179 is not a great figure, but it is real and believable. Then only 41 have real salaries and 41 out of 179 is again not good, but it is real and believable. So hopefully, U.S. News & LSAC will move in the right direction by requiring schools to give real info and letting students know the realities.

Students as Customers:
I do strongly believe students are customers, but you may have misinterpreted what I meant by that. I do not think students should be coddled in any way in fact I am astonished at how soft law schools are on students. I work with people from Hastings, USF, Santa Clara, and GGU and the things they do skipping class, not doing assignments, complaining about professors, blah blah endlessly blaming others for not doing as well as they wanted drives me nuts and I wish law school would be harder on students. As a customer what I expect for my money is to be able to know how to handle basic things I need to know to be a competenlawyer. I don't need respect or people to tell me how great I am I want to learn how to be an effective lawyer and I think my money entitles me to that. However, it is widely accepted that law school doesn't teach you the first thing about being a lawyer. I can't think of any other educational system where that woudl be ok. Obviously, education can only teach you so much, but I imagine a computer programmer learns how to write code etc in their computer science classes, an architect student  learns how to make blueprints, a police cadet in the academy learns to write police reports, etc, but law schools seem ok with the fact that law school doesn't teach you the first thing about being a lawyer. This is a disservice to the profession and to the students who are customers and deserve to know the basics of what they need to do to succeed in the profession they spend 3 years of their life and 100k plus to enter into. Another poster on another thread described law school as paying 100k to get a ticket to take the bar and that seems unacceptable.

I agree that rankings can help firms and again I think the rankings are fine within the top 25 maybe 50 schools. As you mentioned there is an in-crowd and certainly Stanford, Harvard, Yale are the in-crowd and it is a widely accepted fact that they are the cool kids as you put it. However, who was the 78th coolest kid in Jr. high  and was he that much cooler than the 114th coolest kid? Probably not. This is my main concern and what I think happens to most students considering  there are 200 ABA schools and only 50 tier 1 schools. Students including myself when I was a 0L think going to a tier 3 school will open more doors than a tier 4.) In my limited experience it doesn't. Every internship I have had up to this point has been full of GGU, Hastings, and USF students. We are all in the same spot and I know so MANY people that transferred from GGU to Santa Clara, USF, and Hastings thinking infinitely more doors would be opened by attending the 84th best school so they paid 80,000+ more dollars and lost all their first year connections. The reality is those schools basically open the same doors nobody is at GGU, Santa Clara, USF, or Hastings graduation with 100k contracts in hand saying please please work for us instead students from all those schools have to hustle to find work. It is very likely employers are with the cool kids in the Bay Area Stanford and Berkeley begging people to work for them, but nobody says Hastings, or Santa Clara wow what a great school. I can definitely see a firm wanting to only hire people from top schools that has marketability, but despite Hastings being 42nd so low tier 1 I don't think it has international acclaim as a GREAT school and neither does USF, Santa Clara, or GGU.

I think the perfect analogy for this is the NCAA. They do not rank past the top 25 because outside of that it really doesn't matter. Does Wyoming have a better football team than Idaho? Maybe, but realistically on any given day Wyoming could probably beat Idaho or vice versa and nobody would be shocked even if although Wyoming was ranked 42nd and Idaho was ranked 78th nobody would call it an upset. They are both mid-level programs just like the non-elite schools their really isn't a significant difference.

Well hopefully some of my rant was coherent, but I think I said my piece and I am glad to know some steps are being taken in the right direction.

I would say it is worth it and any ABA school is worth the money if you know what you are getting yourself into. The tuition rates are absolutely absurd at every law school, but a 100k investment in legal education will pay off for the rest of your life. Always remember education is a LONG-TERM investment and you will be a lawyer for 20+ years and over that span of time you will have earned more than 100K even if you are a subpar attorney.

Bikepilot went to Harvard and you get a lot more bang for your buck going to Harvard than Chapman no question about it. If you had a 170+ on your LSAT then I imagine you would be going to a T14 school. However, I am guessing like 99% of the general population you are unable to get a 170+ on your LSAT, but you were able to do reasonably well on your LSAT and get admitted to an ABA law school. So if you want to be a lawyer then Chapman will be worth the time & money. If you don't know about being a lawyer or are one of these people that attend law school and have no desire to be a lawyer then it will not be worth it.

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Ohio St. vs. U Washington
« on: June 21, 2011, 06:10:53 PM »
Yep Location, Location, Location. Washington will open up doors on the West Coast and if you don't want to live in the Midwest then don't go to school there. Best case scenario if everything works out perfectly you still be spending 3 more years in the Midwest and have no network built on the West Coast. The practical aspects will come into play when you graduate as well. If you attend Ohio State and want to start working on the West Coast unless you come from money you will be in debt even with scholarship money and in-state tuition and flying to California or any out-of-state interview will be costly plane, hotel, etc and I can't see a firm paying for your flight and expenses for an interview when there are regional schools every year. A firm might and again might cover the cost for a T14 grad i.e Harvard, Yale, Stanford, but not for an Ohio State grad and odds are if you go to Ohio State that is where you will end up.

Incoming 1Ls / Re: Worth Going to Law School If...
« on: June 21, 2011, 05:56:26 PM »
There are jobs everywhere just look at Craigslist the most basic of searches and you will find employment opportunities in fact hundreds of opportunities posted everyday. Now does it suck to look for a job? Yes. Will you get rejected multiple times while looking for a job? Yes. Can you find a job? Yes.

I attend a tier 4 school and a lot of my classmates do not have jobs for their 2L summer and a lot do. This goes to show that finding employment especially from a tier 4 has a lot more to do with the individual than the school. For my part I applied to roughly 1,000 jobs over the course of the year and had 30 interviews so that is 970 flat out rejections on paper, but still 30 interviews. I went on 30 interviews and ended up with 8 job offers 22 more rejections. So that means 992 of my 1,000 applications were for nothing, but I ended up with 8 job offers. I spent a lot of time doing this and getting rejected sucks, but it happens and you have to deal with it when finding a job. This type of success rate does not only apply to law school when I graduated with a degree in Criminal Justice & a Paralegal Certificate from a no-name state school to my shock employers were not all over me. When I was 22 I really did think employers would be all over me at graduation, but as it turns out there are millions of people with Bachelor's degrees and I had to find work. As a broke unemployed recent college graduate I looked for jobs 8 weeks straight and was in a coffee shop from 9am-7pm at a coffee shop applying for jobs. I was rejected numerous times, but I again ended up with several job offers.

Point being finding work sucks it always has and always will it is just part of life. Now with that whole rant Hamilton if I recall you attended Cooley, which is in Michigan and although I have never been there as I understand it the economy for everything in Michigan is DISMAL. The GLOBAL recession hit Michigan hard and it did not only impact lawyers it impacted everyone.  So in your situation because of your location your points may be valid and their might not be any jobs, but maybe it is because Michigan is doing terribly and not because of Cooley's low ranking.

Just to continue my rant I imagine Michigan and the entire Countries economy will turn around and the legal market as well as everything other market will improve. When that happens your J.D. & bar passage will open doors for you. That is the beauty of education it is a life-long investment and if you passed the bar & have a J.D. you can be a lawyer 10 years down the road.

I think everything you said is true, but it is exactly what is wrong with legal education. Law students should be the customers of the school and who the school tries to impress. The main reason for this should be obvious law students pay tuition at an outrageous rate and this outrageous tuition is frivolously rising every year. Look at the LSAC archives. at every ABA school the tuition has risen about 20% between 2007-2010 what changed at any of these schools? I am certain nothing and the cost of a legal education is simply absurd and continuing to get more expensive. It really seems like the ABA has created an anti-trust situation where you have to go to an ABA school and ALL  of the schools are already absurd tuition rates are increasing significantly every year with no basis.I would love it Congress who is handing money to these schools through Direct Loans actually requested an accounting from schools to explain why tuition is upwards of $30,000 per year.

Aside from all that I hope it is not a secret that public opinion of lawyers is not very good. Could it be that lawyers who are entrusted to handle important  matters in people's lives screw up these situations because they are never taught how to handle situations or be effective lawyers in law school. I have not been to med school, but the whole clinical/residency setup prepares you to be a doctor and if I had to get a heart surgery I would be a little concerned if my surgeon told me I learned nothing about how to be a doctor in med school or my residency. Apparently, this whole I learned nothing about how to be a lawyer in law school is ok to the ABA and the legal profession, but it makes no sense to me. In my two years of internships etc I have seem some atrociously bad lawyers that attended all levels of schools and there inability to handle the most basic problems likely stems from the fact that law school did not teach them to be lawyers. I am just very surprised the ABA does not regulate attorneys and education more and hopefully it changes at some point.  I have seen several cases where lawyers being paid hundreds of dollars an hour regularly hurt their clients and make a simple problem far more complex than it ever needed to be.

It is to bad the MacCrate report did not go any further than it did, but one failure doesn't mean people should stop. Hopefully more people like him stand up and make an attempt to change the system that is in serious need of reform.

Online Law Schools / Re: ABA has a monopoly on Law Schools.
« on: June 16, 2011, 08:40:58 PM »
They might be abusing it look at the tuition increases over the last 5 years.

Just a few examples, but every ABA school follows this pattern.
Albany in 2007 cost 32,360 per year it has gone up steadily each year and currenlty the price tag is 39,050. In 3 years the tuition went up 6,690 or 20%. I am sure nothing changed at Albany they just keep increasing the tuition because what can anyone do.

Cardozo 34,850 per year in 2007 in 2010 42,570 another 20% increase in tuition.

Franklin Pierce Law Center 27,300 per year in 2007 and only up to 33,280 in 2007 smaller number, but the increase is roughly 20% again.

The list can go on and on all law school in 3 years have gone up 20% in tuition costs and do not seem to be stopping anytime soon. You have to go to an ABA school to be a lawyer and they are already overcharging and continue to do so. I would consider it an abuse unless schools of course schools did an actual accounting and justified the expenditures. It is very possible the price increases are legitamite, but I have been to every Bay Area school and for schools to be charging what they do I should have a personal assistant and a private 24 k gold bathroom. I have neither and I don't of any school that provides these services that would justify the costs. So that being said I think someone could sue the ABA for an anti-trust violation it is a monopoly and the price hikes are abusive.

I like my school and law school in general, but this seems like a clear abuse of power to me by the schools and nobody questions it. All my concerns would go away if schools did an accounting and justified their costs LSAC has required schools to report how much schools spend on their library so it is a start, but it is roughly a 1,000,000 at each school that does not account for the approximately 18,000,000 each school receives in tution money. I based 18,000,000 on an estimated 30,000 a year tuition and 600 students at any given school. So if a school is receiving 18,000,000 and spends 1,000,000 on their library & staff. Where is the other 17,000,000 mil going a few professors, property taxes, etc, but I feel like someone or a few people are getting absurdly wealthy at every school and continue to get wealthier by hiking law school prices.

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