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Messages - bigs5068
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« on: July 08, 2011, 02:26:30 PM »
Nice I really liked the response by concurring opinion. It was a rebuttal with actual facts that offered some analysis to it. Politicians and a lot of lawyers could learn from this kind of thing.
In regards to Robert's I don't think law review is really an indicator of legal education. It contains 10 to 15% of law school students. Many of them are writing on something they find interesting and law review is just one of the many things a law professor does. There may be a disconnect between legal education and the practice of law, but addressing problems with law review is not where the problem is.
Even if law review were to be a perfectly run fluid system 85% to 90% of law students would still have problems. The problem to me is that you are not required to ever hold a job of any form before attending law school or becoming a member of the bar. Furthermore, law school doesn't teach you how to be a lawyer and it seems to be a widely acknowledged fact that law school doesn't teach you to be a lawyer. Obviously it teaches you a lot, but in regards to the actual work unless you take specific classes you would not know the who, what, when, where, and why of how to file a complaint. You would not know how to prepare a proof of service, just many of the pure basics are not taught. Maybe they could at least make you specialize in something because you can put in a decent effort get through law school and pass the bar. Then still have no idea how to do the most basic thing.
« on: July 08, 2011, 12:55:01 PM »
Many people cite to this article and I want to discredit a lot of what is says to give some encouragement to future 0L's. In all honesty this guy made a lot of mistakes and his own decisions are likely more responsible for the situation he is in than his law school. A short of list of the very obvious mistakes he made.
Page 5 of this article are where the actual facts about this guy pop up.
1) Page 5 He BORROWED SO MUCH MONEY AS A FIRST YEAR
student that he nearly put down a deposit
on a 350,000 condo. He had not worked a day in his first year
of law school and was trying to buy a condo on student loan money. I am almost certain this is illegal and a violation of the direct loans promissory note you sign. This is one of many mistakes he made along the way.
2) Continued on Page 5 in the summer after his first year instead of working he studied abroad in a spacious apartment in France. Again on borrowed money.
3) Then this poor guy again who never worked a day over three years lived in a spacious apartment instead of buying his $350,000 condo on borrowed money.
4) He borrowed another $15,000 to study for the bar, which seems a bit high. That might be reasonable, but considering he had rented a spacious apartment in San Diego for three years and studied in France he should have been a little more careful, but none of that. The mistakes don't end there.
5) On page 5 he says I am not very good at keeping records. He is supposed to be a lawyer and he is not good at keeping records no wonder he can't get hired. Keeping track of evidence and being responsible is somewhat important for a lawyer and it is not something law school can teach you. It is just plain responsibility.
6) Page 6 he moved from San Diego to New York on Page 6 it was Queens so not as expensive, but moving cross country is highly expensive move and he moved another high cost of living area.
7) Then the kicker so he has a job granted a low paying one, but a job. This is again on Page 6 during a firm wide lunch his employer wanted to everyone to thank him for giving him labor day off. Sure that sucks, but he was there a month and instead he said the following.
Direct from Page 6
“When it was my turn, I said, ‘Labor Day is about celebrating the 40-hour workweek, weekends, that sort of thing,’ ” Mr. Wallerstein recalls. “She said, ‘Well, workers have that now so you don’t need a day off to celebrate it.’ ”
He lasted less than a month.
This article was geared to making this guy look sympathetic and there is a list of 7 things that are just plain dumb. I don't even want to know what they would have uncovered if they actually looked into more facts. What we know about this guy is during the first year of law school when you are trying to achieve a high class rank he was buying trying to buy a condo on borrowed money. He is not good at keeping records by his own admission and there is no indication he worked at all during law school. A few weeks into his first job he insults his boss and can't keep a job. All of these things are on him not TJSL and I hate that the New York times is putting these type of stories out blaming the schools instead of the students for their bad decisions. Maybe one day law students will take an ounce of accountability for themselves.
« on: July 08, 2011, 12:02:48 PM »
If she is seeking class action status then maybe the damages aren't as ludicrous as I thought. The media is good at leaving details like that out, but if that is the case I will give her a little more respect.
In regards to the law schools opening up that is true, but every profession is packed right now. I was just with a bunch of people that studied aviation very random, but they were telling me how many pilot schools there were and how screwed up the system is. Apparently you need 2,000 hours of flying, but you have to find someone to give you the 2,000 hours because the school doesn't provide the 2,000 hours and most of them said it was a really messed up system and it was UNFAIR. I might be completely misreporting this, but they were all saying how competitive and hard it was, but there are people that are pilots.
The week before I was with a bunch of teachers complaining about the layoffs budget cuts blah blah. How hard it is for new teachers to get hired. My really good friend is in nursing school and she and all her classmates say how hard it is to find jobs and how unfair the system is.
So the point is every profession is messed up and HARD. It is very very difficult to start out in any profession and Morten and Thane have posted from their own personal experience as lawyers saying it is HARD. Morten went to Yale and said he had a STACK of rejection letters. Thane went to University of Texas and was on law review again he was rejected over and over. Eventually they got their careers started, but I am sure neither of them will say it was easy.
So point of the rant and everything I have ever posted on this site and in response to retards that post on third tier reality and JD underground is law school is no different than anything else. Law school is actually much more open that most programs they at least keep statistics. I would love for undergraduate schools to even attempt to report employment statistics. Or MBA's here is UCLA's MBA career service website not even a mention of employment stats. http://www.anderson.ucla.edu/x902.xml
. There is no ABA or anything that I am aware of in that profession keeping any kind of tabs on employment.
A few more examples. http://nursing.yale.edu/
Yale nursing school doesn't even have a career services office so they are not reporting employment. http://studentaffairs.stanford.edu/cdc/services/career-fair-schedule
Stanford's career service website no mention of any type of employment statistics at all.
People assume getting a degree will open up all kinds of doors right away, but newsflash it won't. There are already literally millions of lawyers, doctors, teachers, pilots, businessmen, etc competing with eachother and recent graduates have to get into that mix and it is HARD.
I will again bring up my basketball experience and when I came in as a freshman after having a decent high school career I thought I was the sh**, but I was just a freshman and the sophomores, juniors seniors had been battling it out with eachother for at least a year before I got there. On top of that there were 4 other freshman competing with me. We all had to battle it out and I never sued the school for recruiting me and not giving me a starting spot right away. Instead we all had to fight for it and I put in a ton of work and a lot of time, but so did everybody else. For me it didn't work out as well as I would have liked, but that is life things don't always go perfectly instead you have to work and earn work everything you get. Instead of whining and b****ing about how unfair everything is. Sadly I don't think many people get this.
To sum up my likely incoherent rant a degree in any profession is the BARE MINIMUM. You have not accomplished anything in any profession by getting a degree. It is great to have and it is the first step.
However, you are going to have to pay your dues and it will take a long time. I am guessing Thane and Morten will attest to the fact that when they finally did get hired after numerous rejections they were not given a sweet corner office with 1,000,000 a year salaries and suddenly assigned to riveting 1st amendment cases. Maybe I am wrong, but I am speculating they started as associates doing the work nobody else really wanted to do. It probably took them years to get their careers started, but now they are authors and probably doing at least ok for themselves. Despite that they probably still have to deal with things that are not glamorous and fun every day. I am going to further speculate there are times when Morten and Thane lawyers from top schools that have been practicing for years do things they don't like to do.
So the law like every other profession is hard, takes a lot of times, and J.D. does not guarantee you anything. When you decided to attend form of higher education you make the choice to do so and are accountable for your decisions, but people seem to avoid this reality. Instead they sit around blaming everybody else, but that usually doesn't get them very far.
« on: July 06, 2011, 01:40:29 AM »
I remember Florida International University saying they would and it is only 11k a year I believe and in Miami. I seriously considered going there because of the LOW cost and I think it is very wise to find schools offering in state-tuition. I also believe University of North Dakota and South Dakota would give it to you and there tuition is only 6k and cost of living is super cheap. They are ABA schools and you can get out with minimal debt if you can handle that kind of weather.
« on: July 05, 2011, 07:54:23 PM »
Not sure if this is what you are talking about.
Troxel v. Granville, 530 U.S. 57
Gives parents a due process right to rear their children. Grandma trying to take custody of her children's children.
I think there are a lot of due process claims. BMW v. Gore 517 U.S. 559 and State Farm Insurance v. Campbell 538 U.S. 408 ( were also con law issues under due process regulating punitive damages. So I think there are a lot of due process issues between private parties. It would just be illegal if slavery was done if two people sold someone as a slave that would also be a due process violation. This is my understanding, but maybe I am wrong.
« on: July 05, 2011, 06:21:03 PM »
We are all entitled to our opinions and I respectfully disagree. I don't think any school is capable of really seeing into the future any better or worse than a student. For example I knew many people in the aerospace engineering business (missile design) that were doing quite well for themselves during the Cold War. Once that suddenly ended that whole profession took a huge dive then came back when Iraq started. How could any aerospace engineering school predict when a war will end or begin.
Same with the law for example after Gideon v. Wainwright criminal defense attorneys became much more in demand. There had been no public defender office in existence prior this decision and suddenly states had fully staff public defender offices I am sure this was GREAT for law schools, because 1,000's if not 100,000 of jobs opened up nationwide. Some legislation could pass helping lawyers or screwing lawyers in the next year nobody can say.
We can bring this into the medical field what impact will it officially have on Doctors and nurses again nobody knows if it will even be constitutional let alone the actual effects it will have.
I could go on and on citing things that change and that is the point of education it lasts a lifetime. Any profession there will be ups and downs etc etc and you assume the risks for good times and bad when you choose to get a degree. I am sure at some point the legal market will pick up and then decline again. I will cite to Thane's post discussing the abysmal job market in 1991. I was 7 then, but I am sure there was a rescission and it later picked up. I imagine Thane and Morten have had ups and downs in their career just like everyone else. Just like you, me, and the plaintiff in this case will have.
So I think it is absurd to begin with and then the fact that she is asking for 50 million is absolutely ludicrous. Her actual damages at most would be $400,000 and from my understanding of some 14th amendment cases I read an award of 100x more than the actual damages woudl be unconstitutional. Cases Print PDF - West Reporter version Print and Email Quick Print to attached printer Print Email Download Other delivery options menu
KeyCite Yellow Flag - Negative Treatment
BMW of North America, Inc. v. Gore
517 U.S. 559
State Farm Mut. Auto. Ins. Co. v. Campbell
538 U.S. 408
In state farm they basically said you can't have punitive damages more than 9x the amount of actual damages. They wanted to have some kind of restriction on punitive damags and the most generous actual damage award this girl could receive is 400,000. TJSL tuition is 33,900 right now. It has gone up every year so she likely paid slightly less, but just being generous she spent 100,000k in tuition over three years. The living costs are living costs and the school derived no benefit from it so I don't see how she could sue for that, but even lets give her that and it is another 75k, but I think that argument fail, but I will again just be overly generous that is a net loss of 175,000. There is an interest on this I understand, but I have already been overly generous in that award.
Then the question becomes what else would she have done over those three years. In all honestly probably struggled to find a job as an entry level college graduate just like she is doing now. However, we will again be extremely generous and say she could have made 100k annually over those 3 years. So just being astronomically generous her actual damages totaled $475,000. and she is asking for more than 100x this ridiuclously generous figure. Which just shows incompetence really I found this case law in a matter of seconds and just common sense should tell you it is not a 50 million dollar claim.
Then to further hurt her argument what is she going to do if she wins. Will she give up her membership to the bar? Or will she then continue to practice as a lawyer. I don't think that would be justified if she sues her school for then continues as a lawyer from the education she received? If she was saying I will give up my bar membership in exchange for a full refund maybe that is reasonable and I don't think that woudl be fair, but she is essentially asking for $50,000,000 dollars and I am assuming acting as on a lawyer on her own behalf based on the education she received from the school she is suing.
I am sure the school will make the completely legitimate argument that it was a contract with the consideration being money for education. You can't even have punitive damages for a breach of contract and certainly not an award of 100x more than the most liberal actual damages award you could be given. It is simply absurd I don't know what else to say. Maybe maybe if she was top of the class and she didn't pass the bar she could have a claim and again maybe, but she graduated and passed the bar and has the ability to be a lawyer. She could go out and get a client as a solo practitioner she has the rights of every other attorney whether they went to Harvard or Cooley if you passed the bar you can be in court. Her school gave her that option and know that things aren't going perfectly in her clearly delusional mind based on her 50 million dollar request she is taking no accountability for herself.
So what I am trying to say in my long and rambling rant I think this girl is a moron. However, that is my two cents and everybody is entitled to their opinion.
« on: July 05, 2011, 10:56:50 AM »
Yes they are I don't think anybody is disputing that. However, what industry doesn't use misleading facts when trying to sell something. The numbers are misleading and you need to ask in-depth questions about what the employment numbers really mean. When you are going to spend 150k and 3 years of your life you should do more than just take the law schools word for everything. It is basically as big an investment as buying a house and if the seller of the home said it is a great neighborhood, great schools, easy access to the freeway, all these vague statements you probably wouldn't take their word on it. Instead you would go there a few nights see what is like then, check out the school, drive around, and verify the information for yourself. This is what most people do when buying a house and spending 100,000 and generally much more. I don't understand why people think law school is any different.
Then I have to reemphaize the point that law students are not idiots. Anyone at an ABA school is a college graduate, with a decent GPA, they were smart enough to score in the 50th percentile of test takers, which consists of college graduates that have a decent GPA, they got letters of recommendation, and to top it off they write a detailed personal statement about how they deal with adversity, overcome challenges blah blah. If you meet all these requirements you are intelligent enough to be accountable for your decisions and not just blindly take someone's word that is trying to sell you a 150,000 product.
« on: July 05, 2011, 01:58:46 AM »
I haven't read this whole thread, so maybe you've already addressed this.
I understand that the individual lawsuit seems ludicrous, but don't you think law schools should be accountable if they know full well that their employment numbers are deceptive? In most states there are twice as many graduates as there are open jobs. Of the national class of 2009 as a whole, only 65% of graduates had jobs requiring bar passage at nine months after graduation. Tuition has nearly doubled in the last ten years even though inflation hasn't been nearly as high. (Not to mention the fact that legal salaries are going down quickly).
Law schools are money makers because they can raise tuition at will due to the ridiculous amount of demand and the class size at most law schools has little to nothing to do with employment prospects.
Short answer is yes and earlier in this thread I put TJSL's employment stats up. They do accurately state the numbers, but in a misleading way. If you take the time to really read into the numbers you will see they are not hiding anything. Are the schools providing misleading information yes, but they are not lying it is puffery just like everything else. Bring in my basketball career here every school that was recruiting me told me about players that made it to the NBA from their school. 99% of college players don't make it, but it sure is nice to hear someone did and they mislead when they recruit you in b-ball. Coke misleads with their taste tests. Gatorade misleads with their nutrition information it is only 50 calories per serving, but a bottle is somehow 2.5 servings this could on all day. You have to take whatever numbers you get from someone trying to sell you something with a grain of salt. Law schools are selling legal education and they are going to put everything they have in their best light.
Then I am sure when you are sending your resumes you exaggerate a bit on your resume as does everybody else. I know I do that I am not lying, but I am selling myself. I highlight my academic awards and A's and from law school and try to not mention the one C- I got in law school. Everybody everywhere is engaging in puffery and law schools are no different.
Now is the price absolutely absurd and I do I think it is a potential anti-trust suit the ABA has engaged in yes. It is ludicrous that law school tuition at every ABA school is going up 2,000 a year and the price is absurd. I hope someone sues them for it and another poster I believe Thane said Massachuetts school of law won a settlement against the ABA for this. In all honesty I think congress should get involved and make law schools do an accounting of what they are spending tuition on. They are releasing federal funds for these loans and should know why a school like Southwestern, Cooley, GGU, Santa Clara, La Verne, etc costs nearly 40,000 per year not including books. There is a real problem there.
However, with all that said I know this scam is going and I choose to enter it. I asked my school for employment info and saw through the B.S. in reality 25% of the class has a full-time paying job and based on recent graduates I know that seems right. My schools claim 87% employment, but that is a croc because unpaid internships count. As you said your part-time jobs count as employment and it is technicallyA you couldn't have your current jobs unless you went to law school.
Your situation is not unique to the legal profession many people starting out have to get part-time jobs slowly work their way up etc. Thane and Morten who have posted went to Yale and University of Texas and they did have some fancy jobs waiting for them. They got rejected and I am sure started their careers slowly. That is what will happen to you more than likely you will do these jobs it will suck for a few years, but then eventually it will work out. However, it may not. That is just the risk anyone takes when going to law school or any form of education and you can't sue when things don't go your way. Education is a gamble and if you bet and lose you deal with it.
« on: July 03, 2011, 12:08:50 AM »
There are plenty of recent hires at various firms and I personally know upwards of 20 recent graduates from all levels of school that are working as attorneys. So young associates are being hired, but as Thane & Morten's stories above state it is HARD! Morten went to Yale f***ing Yale and he had a stack of rejection letters. Thane went to University of Texas and was on Law Review and he had numerous rejections. I am in the top 10% of my class at a low level school and I have been rejected a tremendous amount of times, but I have also been offered several jobs and have had numerous jobs through my academic career. Many of my classmates have had the same experience and so have people I have worked with from Hastings, USF, and Santa Clara.
The plaintiff here needs a dose of reality and needs to realize TJSL is probably the only place that wants her to succeed and she has burned her bridge. This is just simply absurd and I can't believe someone intelligent enough to pass the bar thought this was a good idea. I am guessing she never had a job prior to going to law school, but I could be wrong. All I know is that when I graduate from law school I know I am on my own and whether I succeed or not is up to ME. I take accountability for my decisions and so does anyone that chooses to attend an ABA school.
« on: June 30, 2011, 11:08:22 AM »
There is no better site to answer this type of question than lawschoolnumbers.com. You can look at each school and see who got in with what numbers, what their soft factors were, and whether or not they received scholarship money.
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