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Messages - bigs5068

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31
General Board / Re: 1Ls: How are you doing after the first month+?
« on: October 09, 2011, 10:24:57 PM »
I think you are seeing why sites like JDunderground frustrate me so much.  Many law students simply do not put in the work, then they complain and take no responsibility for themselves I truly wish professors would be harder on students who don't prepare, but that is another topic

Some helpful hints that I didn't realize until second semester for FalconJimmy are Cali Lessons and ECaseBriefs when studying for your final. I remember referring back to e-case briefs site and just reading the synopsis they provide which was really helpful. Cali Lessons are an easy thing to use and I found them very helpful. I think more important than outlining is doing the proper amount of practice problems particularly if you have multiple choice questions. It is very nuanced, but there are only so many trick ways to ask a question and once you have done enough of them you see a pattern. It sounds like you have been staying on top of it, but remember practicing the problems are KEY!  I know everyone learns differently, but I just wanted to offer some friendly suggestions that have worked for me. Good luck.

32
I think and hope it will. Your situation is not faced law students alone and there has never been a time when recent graduates with little to no experience in any profession have been swarmed with job offers. Getting your first professional job in anything is a grind and your first job will consist of a lot of grunt work etc. It takes time to build a career, but by passing the bar and getting a J.D. you have an opportunity to succeed. Your a lawyer now and you will have that license the rest of your life. I;m sure I don't need to tell you how much can change in a year and you will have your bar license for a lifetime. During your career there will many ups and downs to count, but there will be good times.

The predicament of employers wanting 3-5 years experience is present in every profession. As you can see there are numerous opportunities for a law grad with experience you have half the puzzle with the J.D., but in 3-5 years you will have 3-5 years experience. Then your opportunities will improve, but more than likely your first job will not be high paying or glamorous, but that is the way it goes in anything. Remember education is a LONG-TERM investment and you are just starting out. I will literally be shocked and I imagine you will be to if in 5 years you don't have a job related to your J.D.

There are definite problems with legal education and higher education in general  no doubt about it, but you still have a great opportunity as a person licensed to practice law. If you stick with it things will work out eventually, but bad times will come as well.  This will happen to me, you, and everybody in every  profession. Good luck out there. 



33
There will always be naysayers and those who complain and say you can't and nobody can, but you just have to move on. Sounds like you have a good attitude and hopefully it works out, but it might not.  Attacking people who complain about how everything is will get you nowhere let them mope and tell everybody how awful things are. 

I agree with you there are a lot worse options than law school out there, but it is not a guarantee of anything. Blue54 is saying how awful it is as a recent graduate, but we will see what tune he/she sings in 5 years. At that point they will have some idea of whether law school was a good or bad idea. At this point he/she is 5 months out of school and likely awaiting bar results. I am sure there is nobody begging a recent grad awaiting bar results to work for them and finding your first legal job like your first job in any profession sucks. No profession starts out glamorously even if you go into a biglaw prestigious firm you will be stuck doing document review the first few years. Hopefully it works out for blue54 and everybody else on this board, but if it doesn't we all took the risk of going to law school and live with the consequences.


34
Law School Applications / Re: chances
« on: October 01, 2011, 05:33:28 PM »
What you just said is how law schools get you. Finishing in the top 1/3 of the class difficult and 66% of first year student's don't. What happened in undergrad is completely irrelevant and it is possible someone got a 3.1 in molecular biology, which would be a lot different than a 3.1 in religious studies. They may have gotten a 3.1 from a very difficult school and someone else might have received a 3.1 from a school that hands A's out. Even if none of those are true law school is nothing like undergrad. You have one final for each class nothing else matters except for three hours and how you prepare for one test. I never had an undergrad class where it was just one final graded anonymously. That is what law school is and there is no way to predict how you well do based on LSAT/GPA. There were people in my first year that said they passed up Berkeley for the full scholarship convinced they would finish in the top 10% and neither kept their scholarship after the end of first year.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/01/business/law-school-grants.html?pagewanted=all this article does a good of explaining it. I kept mine, but I knew there was a good chance I would lose it. Don't go in with an attitude of it can't be that hard to be in the top 1/3 of the class it is. 95-99% of people at any ABA school are smart, hard working, ambitious people convinced they will be in the top of their class. However, 90% of these people won't be in the top 10% 80% won't be in the top 20% so and so on. So be very, very, very cautious about the merit scholarship offers and be sure you would want to be at that school even if the scholarship was taken away.

The most important thing besides the scholarship is location. People get so caught up in the "rankings", but they are an absolute joke and make no sense. As you can read in that article schools are obsessed with satisfying a for-profit magazine that in 1987 decided to rank law schools with no real criteria. Everybody buys into it, but it makes no sense. Schools drop 30 spots any given year and since there formula makes no sense there are 11 way ties the current 11 way tie for 84th place is my favorite.

This chart does a decent job of showing how much a school can change in over two years. http://www.top-law-schools.com/rankings.html

You can see if you were a first year at University of Missouri in 2009 you were attending the 65th best school now you would be at a school that is no longer in the top 100.

If you were a first year at Villanova in 2009 you attended the 61st best school now it is in the 11 way tie for 84th place so it might be 84th or 95th since it is an 11 way tie not it is somewhere between that.

OU has consistently stayed in the 70's, but realistically nobody is that impressed by 70th best in anything. I really think if you don't go to a T14 school (ELITE SCHOOL) i.e. Harvard, Yale, Stanford.  get out with as little debt as possible.

With that said University of Oklahoma offers in-state tuition and only costs 16,000 per year. http://www.lsac.org/LSACResources/Publications/2011OG/aba6879.pdf

Tulsa is 28,000 http://www.lsac.org/LSACResources/Publications/2011OG/aba6883.pdf
OKC is 31,000 per year http://www.lsac.org/LSACResources/Publications/2011OG/aba6543.pdf

To be realistic you will likely lose the scholarship at Tulsa or OKC the first year nothing against you, but as I said above the numbers are against you there is a 33% chance you will be in the top 1/3 of the class and a 66% chance you will lose the scholarship and then pay 56,000 in tuition or 62,000 for the final two years.

OKC you will pay 48,000 total. As a sidenote Tulsa has been jacking their tuition up like crazy when I was accepted it was 21,000 per year now it is 28,000 per year. All the private schools go up about two grand every year so even with the scholarship it won't remain a full scholarship, because private schools raise their tuition at an absurd rate. Oklahoma and other schools taht offer in-state tuition don't have price hikes that are as high. 

With all that said Oklahoma seems to offer the best of everything, but if your soon to be wife has a great job in OKC then maybe you should stay there. In the end law school teaches you the same thing literally from Harvard to Cooley the first year curriculum is basically identical. Contracts, Torts, Civil Procedure, Criminal Law, Legal Writing.

Anyways, there are  lot of factors to consider, but I just wanted to show some numbers and let you know about how the merit scholarships work.


35
I have nothing against Undergrad my point is that there are a lot more people with bachelor's than J.D.'s and even fewer J.D's that have passed the bar. Even fewer that have passed in a particular state so you are competing  with fewer people when searching for a job after passing the bar, but there is still a lot of competition.

The poster B212B cites the department of labor stats for lawyers. They are not great, but is it any better for any other profession. No it is not at the moment I suppose computer programing engineering is doing well. However, there was the dot.com bust only 10 years ago and that industry was doing terribly. After the cold war missile manufacturers went down after 9/11 those went back up. I could go on and on with examples, but what nobody who gives the conclusory statement of "the economy sucks" you shouldn't do x seems to do is not look outside their bubble. The legal economy is not great right now and there have been other times it has not been great. There have also been good times and there will be good times in the future. If you get a law degree you can be a lawyer for the rest of your life through the good times and the bad and there will be good times and there will be bad simple as that. You hear med students complaining about Obamacare and how it will destroy everything maybe it will maybe it won't it is a change and that whole profession might be hurt but it will adjust and it maybe it will go away or it won't be so bad who knows.

The point is if you want to be a lawyer go to law school it is a big sacrifice of time and money so be sure it is something you want. If you want to be a cop go to the police academy, a teacher get a teaching credential, so on and so forth. Those things will last a lifetime period.

36
The sad thing is college is not cheap anymore. Many undergrads charge the same as law schools and if you think the competition for entry level J.D. jobs sucks. Try going in with a B.A. in History. You might be slightly more in debt for the J.D., but at least there is a chance of doing something and you could even go into business for yourself. Not many postings for historians on craigslist.

My main point is everybody claims the J.D. market is so bad, but there is the GLOBAL RECESSION and there are a lot fewer people that can get in and get through law school than can get into and through college. So you are competing with less people. It is still hard in fact very hard, but you are a lot better of than most people. What happens to a lot of people though is they think law school is the safe easy route that will give me a sweet job and I will settle for it. That is no good. The law is difficult and a lot of work especially when your getting started and if you did it thinking things were going to come easy you will be disappointed and then spend your time making a website like JDunderground instead of taking accountablity for your decision. Anyways, no matter what you want do choose something your interested in and enjoy, because there is no easy guaranteed way to get a sweet high paying job in this world. If there is please let me know.


37
True, but do you think other professions are much better? At least in law there are only 40,000 graduates per year and there is a standardized test the bar that about 20-25% of people can't pass. So that reduces it to 30,000 per year. It will be competitive, but try being one of the numerous people with a bachelor's degree, a master's, MBA, etc. That is even more difficult. Bottom line is the world is hard and there are more people than ever so everything is competitive. If you want to be a lawyer go to law school and see what happens. It will not be easy, but neither is anything else so you might as well choose something you would enjoy doing.

38
Law School Applications / Re: chances
« on: September 25, 2011, 07:40:16 PM »
Tulsa may offer you a full scholarship I had slightly lower numbers and was offered nearly full tuition, but as Nealric said many of these scholarship offers are revoked after the first year for GPA requirements. Tulsa required you to maintain a 3.0 GPA, which is a GPA that anyone getting a scholarship to an ABA school got with minimal effort. However, law school is a whole different game everybody at an ABA school is smart, hard working, etc and at most schools only 35% of the class can have a 3.0 at the end of first year, which creates a 65% chance of losing your scholarship.

In regards to the schools I don't think any are impressive outside of Oklahoma or Texas. If you want to be in Oklahoma I would pay full price there, because Oklahoma probably does quite well in Oklahoma it is the best school in the state. If your not sure were you want to end up Tulsa on a full ride might be the best option although there is a strong chance you will only get the first year free. I visited Tulsa law school and was quite impressed with the facilities etc, but the town wasn't for me.

39
General board for soon-to-be 1Ls / Re: Relationships and first year law.
« on: September 22, 2011, 07:25:38 PM »
That could be or she might just be stressed out very hard to say. Not sure about your background if she went straight from undergrad to law school the change might be very hard and she is just stressed out. That may be the case regardless the first semester I was just freaked out along with most people you don't know what your doing and I think most first semester students overstudy and overstress and I was included in this list and I woudl probably wait until Christmas break to see where things really stand it calms down completely and if she is still avoiding you at that point then there something is really missing.

Hopefully things work out.

40
Recommendations / Re: Need some advice. Should I disclose or not.
« on: September 21, 2011, 12:36:54 PM »
It probably won't hurt you, but law school admissions is almost ALL about numbers. You can see this by looking at lawschoolnumbers.com. It won't hurt you to submit it, but schools are not likely to have much sympathy for an ADHD diagnosis. They really don't have much sympathy in admissions period unless your story is newsworthy i.e. lost your arm jumping on a grenade to save 20 orphans in Africa or something like that. All schools claim to "care" about soft factors, but they really don't unless it is something like the example above.   I would check out lawschoolnumbers.com to see what your chances are at particular schools.   

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