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Messages - TheCause

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Incoming 1Ls / Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
« on: April 20, 2010, 01:48:58 PM »
Well I dropped out of law school and was enrolling in the MBA program, but when I asked the MBA admissions dean at my school for a guarantee that I would be paid 100k at graduation and get a sweet corner office she said she couldn't guarantee it?  I guess if you get an M.B.A. you also have to look for a job at graduation and not everybody becomes a C.E.O right when they graduate and some even have a hard time finding a job so I hear.

Well although I am not in law school anymore, at least I have my B.A. and paralegal certificate and that at least guarantees me a job as a paralegal right? However, I seem to remember when I graduated with that two years ago it took me 2 months to find a job and the first one I got did not pay me 6 figures and they made me do actual work and some of the things they made me do I did nto enjoy, can you believe it! I remember at times feeling underpaid and sometimes like I would rather be doing something else than working. Can you believe that I actually had a job where I felt I was not making enough money and I didn't love every single second of it!?!?

I know everyone one that doesn't have a J.D. sits around saying how much they love their job and that they are making way to much money. I have never heard anyone other than lawyers complaint about their job, so at least I am glad I am going not down the J.D. path I would hate to risk feeling that I was underpaid and not getting amazing assignments all the time and having the flexibility to just say I don't want to deal with something that is inconvenient or god forbid not everything handed to me. Thank god for this great economy and employers handing out sweet, easy, and high-paying jobs to people as long as they don't get a J.D. I hear it is way to better drop out of school in about 8th grade work for McDonald's for a few years then show up and get a 6 figure salary.

Funny Guy, Bigs.

If I could, I would change the name of this thread to "Don't go into a lot of debt to go to law school right now"

You are right that a job is hardly ever "guaranteed,"  but law school is particularly risky right now.  Some people will get a return on their investment, but the statistical likelihood is a lot lower now than it was three or four years ago.  One medium/large firm in my region extended full-time offers to all of it's six summer associates in 2008.  In 2009 they only offered one a job, and this year they are only taking on two summer associates and the firm informed them that an offer after graduation was unlikely.
That's just one example, but I hear stories like that all the time. 

An MBA is a totally different story.  In some fields, an M.B.A. isn't much more valuable than a Business Bachelors Degree.  But there is a huge difference between a JD and an MBA:  An MBA really only takes a year, and tuition at a bottom-level school is usually very low in comparison.  I know of one quality university that offers an MBA for 12,000. (Three trimesters, one year, 40 Credits)  The cheapest law schools charge 12,000 (in-state) each year for three years.  So if you are going to compare a JD to an MBA you have to take into account the fact that the JD costs at least three times as much.  Some people spend 90-120k on law school tuition.  I don't know of any MBA program that even comes close to that.

I made the decision to go to my law school based on the information that over 90% of the students had jobs within 9 months after graduation, and 55% of graduates found jobs at law firms.  I assumed that if I could get in the top third or quarter of my class, then I would be able to get a job in a law firm. I'm working in the public sector now, and most of the firms respond to my resume with: "A resume like yours would have gotten you a pretty good job three years ago."
Your risk analysis has to be a lot different now, and that's what I'm trying to tell 0Ls.   


I'm happy my wife took my name.  I didn't really consider the overall consequences to society, but it is nice for my immediate family to all have the same last name.

Whatever you do, don't make your kids hyphenate their names.  I worked with a married girl who had a triple name.  (Dad's last name -Mom's last name - husband's last name.)

That's just not very cool.  And are her kids going to have the triple hyphen?  Eventually even a Quadruple hyphen?

Incoming 1Ls / Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
« on: April 17, 2010, 10:35:47 PM »
How is being a pharmacist better than a lawyer? ???

I don't think it is.  But the job prospects are much better right now.  My cousin just graduated from pharmacy school and his starting salary at a grocery store pharmacy was $102,000.  He works four ten-hour shifts and that's it.  Not bad at all.
I think I'd die of boredom, but still.

Incoming 1Ls / Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
« on: April 17, 2010, 06:32:46 PM »
That's a good post from PSUDSL08.

All of you law school defenders should read that post a couple times, then take a breath, and then decide whether you want to respond.

No one here is saying that some students should not be allowed to go to law school.  But there are some posters on this board who are offering an honest perspective.  My school's career services office (I graduated in December) just told me that only 39% of current 3Ls have something lined up.  Graduation is in 3 weeks!   And this is info from a strong T2 school that is well respected in the region. 

Can members of classes '10-'14 succeed?  Absolutely.
Does the data in the US news rankings accurately reflect your chances?  Absolutely not.

My advice to students planning on entering law school this fall: (Particularly students without scholarships)
Try hard to get a full-time job before August, and think about working for a few years before you go for the JD. 
Or go to pharmacy school if you can get in. 

Incoming 1Ls / Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
« on: April 16, 2010, 08:46:16 AM »
All of these discussions are really interesting to me.  We have a few T3-T4 defenders who want people to know that there are opportunities out there and that law school isn't a waste of money and time.

But the decision is simply a risk/reward analysis.  Employment statistics in T2 schools are horrible right now, and I'm sure they are even worse at T3-T4 schools.  Maybe 100,000 of debt was a reasonable risk when you had a 25% chance of making 100,000+ a year.

I was an above average law student.  
160 LSAT, went to a school ranked between 60-90, Ranked 50/160,  law review board member.
I came to law school hoping to work for a medium law firm.  I eventually wanted to work in health law.

Well now I'm fortunate enough to have a job making 60,000 in the public sector because I worked my tail off during my summer internships (I didn't get any offers to intern for firms I was interested in)

So even though I'm surviving, I'm not doing what I want to do.  Even though I wasn't awesome student, I'm still probably in the top third of candidates out there for jobs.  

The risk of getting paid less than 50,000 after graduation is very high.
The risk of working in a less-than-ideal job is even higher.

So I would encourage people to go to law school, but only if you have good surrounding circumstances.  Savings, family connections, high LSAT score, full scholarships, legal experience, etc.

It used to be an okay idea to go to any respectable law school and take on a ton of debt... those days are over.

Incoming 1Ls / Re: Do NOT go to law school (a sincere warning)
« on: April 15, 2010, 08:47:20 AM »
Okay, Okay... I've got the answer.


Just wait to go until you've saved up $50,000-$100,000 first.

Problem Solved.

Current Law Students / Re: Does class ranking include the flunkees?
« on: April 15, 2010, 08:43:00 AM »
If by "flunkies" you mean people who drop out, then they aren't included in your class rank.
For example, if ten people go join the circus, your ranking will be 75/180 instead of 75/190. (At my school, at least)

Interesting points.

I do have to note that there was absolutely no correlation between my grades and how much I paid attention in class.

Sometimes that has to do with class difficulty.  I paid attention almost every minute of fed tax, but that class was really difficult and everyone paid full attention.  I didn't get a horrible grade, but it wasn't great.

I never paid any attention at all in corporations or secured transactions or criminal law and I did well in those classes.   I never listened, and never took a single note.  I didn't buy the book for one of those classes. I killed myself and paid attention every day in criminal procedure and got an average grade.  
I'm not saying this to brag--I actually think it makes me a poor student--but sometimes I just don't need to listen to my teacher ramble on about stuff that isn't on the final.
(Oh, and Joseph Glannon's Civil Procedure E&E was much more effective than my teacher)
Also, I've learned through my two internships and my job that the information you learn in law school doesn't really help you very much in the real world.  However, the ability to research and analyze that you learn in law school helps a lot.  

My suggestion would be to ban computers for the first semester or year of classes.

Visits, Admit Days, and Open Houses / Re: Fastest School to Top 100?
« on: April 14, 2010, 11:10:22 AM »
UNLV Law was established in 1998 and gained accreditation in 2003.  So it's newer than Chapman.

This law student and former marketing professor seems to think computers are a bad idea in law schools. 
Is it the students responsibility to pay attention, or does the teacher have a duty to command student's attention?

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