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Messages - WSUAlum1

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31
Law School Applications / Re: Time to make a decision...
« on: May 14, 2008, 12:46:31 AM »
I should also add: Wayne has taken lots of body blows lately as an institution.  For years it was a borderline T2/T3 school, while all other law schools in MI were T4.  Wayne told all of its incoming students that it was poised to break into T2.  Wayne was by far the best regional school in MI.  When you consider that over 3/4 of UM grads left the state, wayne really had a stranglehold on the market.  Wayne grads still imagine those glory days

the former DCL's move to MSU has changed all of that.  the new MSU has upgraded its facilities, faculty and students (check out the chart on scholarships in the link I sent)  In the recent USNews rankings, MSU is 108 (very close to the top of T3, ready to break into T2), while wayne is way back at 125.  Wayne just hired a new dean from Willamette, which is even farther behind--dead last in T3.  I'm sure he'll lead us to the promised land.

Bottom line--by the time you graduate, MSU will likely be regarded as the premier regional school in MI.  You need to factor that into your decision as well

Good luck!

32
Law School Applications / Re: Time to make a decision...
« on: May 14, 2008, 12:35:02 AM »
I think this article has a lot to say about the cost/benefit analysis you are facing:

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1207904889498

Hope it helps.  You should also understand that the odds of keeping your scholarship at wayne into the 2d year are about 50%.  (if you make it into year 2, odds of getting to year 3 are better)  I know you are at the top of wayne's 'credential pool' but so are all of the other students who are getting offers like yours, and the odds I'm giving you are recent historical #s. 

33
Nobody, apparently.

Good luck

34
Where should I go next fall? / Re: Complete T3 & T4 Rankings
« on: May 09, 2008, 07:29:52 AM »
good Q, Multiple LSAT Taker (& I wish you luck on your LSATs)

Lots of people in exactly your position 3 and 4 years ago were sold a bill of goods about WSU.  They were told: Wayne was v. inexpensive, it was the best school in Mich after U of M, it was about to break into T2, etc.  Then the school significantly increased tuition (to hire more profs to improve fac/stud ratios to get into T2).  It created a scholarship program to raise GPA/LSAT, also to get into T2. (Students in this program not only get reduced tuition, but also get other privileges denied even to students who work hard and get good grades.  A caste system).  The result is that the average Wayne State student today pays a lot more in tuition, so that a few high LSAT/GPA students can go to cocktail receptions with big firm lawyers and leave the school debt free.  Nice.

As I've said in other posts, there used to be something idealistic about the school.  Students could leave w/ low debt and do the things they came to law school to do.  That is all becoming harder.

The school has sold its soul to US News, and lost.  It is now deep in T3, way behind where it was when this whole adventure started.  I hope it returns to where it started, but 17 places in US News is a lot of ground to make up.  The only way to make up that many places is an infusion of new $.  Will it come from students? (more tuition hikes)  Alums? (they are still being dunned for the new building that isn't close to being financed)  The university? (not likely--w/ declining enrollments)

I could go on, but I'd just be repeating other posts.  Best of luck making a hard decision.  Assemble all of the information you can--from school visits, admissions people, lawyers in the community, newspaper stories about the schools, etc.  My posts are just a few 'data points' among many.  You get to decide how much credence they deserve.

Wherever you go--if you work hard, you will develop skills that will help you for a lifetime.  Good luck on your career.

35
Reviews, Visits, and Rankings / Complete T3 & T4 Rankings
« on: May 08, 2008, 11:55:17 PM »


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   Complete T3 & T4 Rankings
on: Today at 12:34:07 AM
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I know this info is available elsewhere on this board for those who want to search, but as folks are finishing their UG final exams and turning their thoughts toward picking a school, I thought it might be useful to collect the rankings here.

Also: I'd like to make a plea to people who might have similar rankings for prior years.  Almost every school in tier N will tell you that it has some new program that will move it up to tier N-1 by the time you graduate.  Knowing where schools have been for the last few years would give us all some idea about whether these promises are at all credible.

(To give the one eg I know: Michigan State was T4 two years ago.  Last year it went T3.  It is now ranked 108--near the top of T3 (since T2 extends to 104 b/c of ties).  It will likely be T2 b4 long.  Cross-state rival Wayne State was at the top of T3 a few years ago, but has now fallen into a tie for 125--well behind.  Two years ago, Wayne State was telling incoming students that it was about to crack T2.  Not even close)

Please feel free to follow up w/ other similar stories.

Here are the #s:

Third Tier

105. (Tie) Creighton, U. Arkansas (Fayetteville), U. Maine
108. (Tie) Michigan State University, Quinnipiac U., U. Mississippi, U. Toledo
112. (Tie) Albany, U. Akron, U.  Montana, U. San Francisco, U. St. Thomas (MN), Vermont
118. (Tie) Drake, Gonzaga, Howard, New York Law School, U. Idaho, U. Missouri-Kansas City, W. Virginia
125. (Tie) Cleveland State, Loyola - New Orleans, Texas Tech., U. Baltimore, U. Wyoming, Wayne State U.
131. (Tie) Chapman, Franklin Pierce, Hamline, Pace, U. Arkansas-Little Rock, Washburn
137.  (Tie) Ohio Northern, Samford (Cumberland), Suffolk, U. South Dakota, Willamette

Fourth Tier

142. U. North Dakota
143. (Tie) Campbell, So. Illinois, Southwestern, U. Memphis, U. Tulsa, Valparaiso
149. Northern Illinois
150. (Tie) CUNY,  William Mitchell
152. U. Dayton
153. (Tie) Duquesne, Florida International, John Marshall
156. (Tie) California Western, Northern Kentucky
158. (Tie) Nova Southeastern University, Roger Williams U., Widener
161. (Tie) Capital, Whittier
163. (Tie) Mississippi College, South Texas, St. Mary's, Texas Wesleyan, U. Detroit
168. (Tie) N.C. Central, Oklahoma City U., Texas Southern
171. (Tie) Florida Coastal, Regent, Western New England
174. (Tie) Golden Gate, New England, Southern, St. Thomas (FL), Thomas Jefferson
179. (Tie) Ave Maria, Touro
181. (Tie) Barry, Thomas Cooley, U. District of Columbia
184. Appalachian

Source: http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblawg/2008/03/us-news-hacked.html

36
Where should I go next fall? / Complete T3 & T4 Rankings
« on: May 08, 2008, 11:34:07 PM »
I know this info is available elsewhere on this board for those who want to search, but as folks are finishing their UG final exams and turning their thoughts toward picking a school, I thought it might be useful to collect the rankings here.

Also: I'd like to make a plea to people who might have similar rankings for prior years.  Almost every school in tier N will tell you that it has some new program that will move it up to tier N-1 by the time you graduate.  Knowing where schools have been for the last few years would give us all some idea about whether these promises are at all credible.

(To give the one eg I know: Michigan State was T4 two years ago.  Last year it went T3.  It is now ranked 108--near the top of T3 (since T2 extends to 104 b/c of ties).  It will likely be T2 b4 long.  Cross-state rival Wayne State was at the top of T3 a few years ago, but has now fallen into a tie for 125--well behind.  Two years ago, Wayne State was telling incoming students that it was about to crack T2.  Not even close)

Please feel free to follow up w/ other similar stories.

Here are the #s:

Third Tier

105. (Tie) Creighton, U. Arkansas (Fayetteville), U. Maine
108. (Tie) Michigan State University, Quinnipiac U., U. Mississippi, U. Toledo
112. (Tie) Albany, U. Akron, U.  Montana, U. San Francisco, U. St. Thomas (MN), Vermont
118. (Tie) Drake, Gonzaga, Howard, New York Law School, U. Idaho, U. Missouri-Kansas City, W. Virginia
125. (Tie) Cleveland State, Loyola - New Orleans, Texas Tech., U. Baltimore, U. Wyoming, Wayne State U. 
131. (Tie) Chapman, Franklin Pierce, Hamline, Pace, U. Arkansas-Little Rock, Washburn
137.  (Tie) Ohio Northern, Samford (Cumberland), Suffolk, U. South Dakota, Willamette

Fourth Tier

142. U. North Dakota
143. (Tie) Campbell, So. Illinois, Southwestern, U. Memphis, U. Tulsa, Valparaiso
149. Northern Illinois
150. (Tie) CUNY,  William Mitchell
152. U. Dayton
153. (Tie) Duquesne, Florida International, John Marshall
156. (Tie) California Western, Northern Kentucky
158. (Tie) Nova Southeastern University, Roger Williams U., Widener 
161. (Tie) Capital, Whittier
163. (Tie) Mississippi College, South Texas, St. Mary's, Texas Wesleyan, U. Detroit
168. (Tie) N.C. Central, Oklahoma City U., Texas Southern
171. (Tie) Florida Coastal, Regent, Western New England
174. (Tie) Golden Gate, New England, Southern, St. Thomas (FL), Thomas Jefferson
179. (Tie) Ave Maria, Touro
181. (Tie) Barry, Thomas Cooley, U. District of Columbia
184. Appalachian

Source: http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblawg/2008/03/us-news-hacked.html

37
Where should I go next fall? / Re: Wayne State v. Michigan State
« on: May 07, 2008, 05:11:41 PM »
beamcnally:

No Vault 100 firms come to WSU.  I'm sure the poster you quote was speaking more colloquially (biglaw = Detroit firms of 100-200).  U of Detroit Mercy has a v innovative program that teaches big firm practice skills, and that's why it places students in true biglaw firms, even if those firms do not show up and recruit there.  Hit UDM's website and read the Wall Street Journal article for more info.

Re: Wayne State, the poster you quote is really drinking the Kool Aid.  Wayne used to be near the top of T3, and its in-state rival MSU was in T4, so Wayne could boast it was the best regional school in MI. Last year, Wayne State fell to T4, and MSU got to T3.  This year, Wayne crawled back into T3, but far down: it's tied for 125 w/ 5 other schools.  MSU moved up to a tie for 108--close to the top, since T2 this year extended down to 104.  MSU is now the #1 regional school in Michigan.  Given its "trajectory" it will likely be T2 v soon.  You can get an out of state job at a T2 (though probably not a Vault 100 job).  People at Wayne (if you can get them on the phone!) will tell you that they are headed back to T2, but that's a fantasy, and the numbers/rankings show just how unrealistic that is.  Read my posts upthread for more about WSU v MSU.

Good luck making a tough choice

38
My advice is similar to that of other posters, albeit more long winded.  I apologize for the wind.  Please appreciate that i'm only trying to help you

First--engage in all of the fantasies you'd like.  Transferring from a T3 to a 'name brand' school is very difficult.  Only top 5% or so have any chance.  (I know--you'll be one of those 5%.  Half of your classmates will swear to the same).  The smartest thing to do is to ask: which school would I be most willing to attend if I had to stay there for all 3 years?  Pick that school. That's the A answer.  If you would not be willing to attend any of these schools for 3 years, b/c their cost is not worth the financial benefit of a T3 degree, then either 1) do something else, or 2) step out of the process for this year until you can do something that will get you into a school that you would be willing to attend (improve LSAT, get masters degree to improve GPA, etc).  Then try again.

If you insist on ignoring what I said above (& god help you if you do), then pick the T3 nearest to the name brand school you really want to attend by transfer.  If you want to transfer to a fancy school in NY, then attend a NY T3.  Same for California. 

I'll speak for the MI market by eg, b/c that's what i know best.  The top Wayne students (top 5%) can and do transfer to U of M after 1L.  U of M gets lots of those applications, and can compare you to previous apps and decide if you'd likely succeed.  The profs at Wayne can write letters that say "Jones is as good as Smith, who transferred 3 years ago, and did well at UM."  Also, the best Wayne profs will spend their sabbaticals at UM, since it is convenient and does not disrupt family life.  When UM sees a LOR from WSU profs who have taught at UM, they know that those LORs are reliable.  There is a pipeline, so to speak, from a T3 to neighboring national schools.

Since you want to end up in NY and Cali, pick one of those states, and attend a T3 there.  Since you don't want to go to a national school in MI (U of M), don't go to wayne.

Since you seem pretty stubborn, allow me to make a prediction.  You'll pick a school in the state w/ the nat'l school to which you'd like to transfer.  You will not be able to, or will not want to transfer after 1L (I'd tell you why you might not want to, but you won't believe me).  If you have energy and drive, and hustle to make contacts by clerking during law school w/ small local firms that do entertainment law, and join the entertainment law society, and make sure to meet all of the speakers who come to your school, and talk to then and impress them w/ your hustle and hard work, you will have as good or better a chance to achieve what you want than if you had transferred to nat'l school and had just relied on your fancy credential to get you through.

Five years out of school, the practice of law is much more about energy, commitment and people skills than it is about your credential. Right now, you think I'm full of *&^%.  But print this response.  When you are a lawyer, it'll be hanging on your wall.

39
Reviews, Visits, and Rankings / Re: Tier 3 rankings
« on: April 26, 2008, 01:36:07 AM »
Sorry Plex--that is the full list.  Thanks.  I remember seeing it too, when the rankings were released "prematurely."

40
Reviews, Visits, and Rankings / Re: Tier 3 rankings
« on: April 25, 2008, 01:56:52 PM »
Thx Plex:

Do you have the full list?

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