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Messages - WSUAlum1

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Visits, Admit Days, and Open Houses / Re: Wayne State: Worth it?
« on: March 21, 2011, 11:53:08 AM »
Hi FJ:

Thanks for the scoop.  I was surprised at Toledo's fall b/c the school was starting to make inroads in the Detroit area.  In the last year or so I've heard from three partners at mid-sized Detroit firms that they had hired Toledo clerks for the summer and were impressed w/ their work.   I suppose Toledo's drop is good for law grads in the Detroit area, since the market here is already bad.

Better link than the one above: see my posts in this thread:

Call the office to ask for the time extension.  Wayne is understaffed, and phone calls typically get higher priority than emails.  Try to call between 9 and 10 before people get swamped.  If you have to leave a message, be sure to tell whoever answers the phone that you received a 75% offer and need another couple of weeks to decide.  If you get any resistance, tell them that you are concerned about the Wayne's US News numbers, and its employment numbers.  (If you are curious about the employment numbers, see my post here:  They'll know you are paying attention.

Hi Stuck:

There is a LOT that one could say about this issue, but I'll spare you the details for now.  You have a choice to make, and here's my take on it:

Do not worry that Wayne wants a seat deposit before MSU makes a financial aid offer.  B/c of the USN results that you mention, you have Wayne over a barrel.  The difference between 95 and 121 is NOT small at all in the law school world, esp between such close rivals. Please keep in mind that even before these rankings, Wayne was a school in decline and MSU was a school on the rise.  (How's this: from '09 to '10, Wayne applications fell 11%, and MSU's increased 27%: So: we are talking about the difference between a school that is T2 w/ a bullet and T3 dead in the water.

Wayne has been pretending for years that it has a much better local reputation than DCL/MSU.  The latest USN rankings put a nail in that coffin.  So: you hold the whip hand here.

Contact Wayne and explain that you are waiting for offers from other law schools, and need another couple of weeks to look at your options.  Wayne has no choice but to give you the time.

Then see how much you get from MSU.  Even if the number isn't that great, contact Wayne again and say that you got $X from MSU, and are thinking about accepting in light of the US News differences.  You might get a full ride from Wayne.

You are in a good position right now, so get the best deal you can. 

Visits, Admit Days, and Open Houses / Re: Wayne State: Worth it?
« on: March 15, 2011, 05:17:53 AM »
More info for the OP:

US News rankings are out, and US News is ranking the 3d tier:

Michigan State: 95
Wayne:  121

Toledo fell into T4.  (I'll be curious about that story--big fall in 3 years)

Go to Michigan State, for all the reasons above.

Visits, Admit Days, and Open Houses / Re: Wayne State: Worth it?
« on: March 13, 2011, 10:28:24 PM »
OK.  Thanks.  So here are the employment #s for MSU:  And here are the #s for WSU:  They purport to list graduates employed by type of employer, size of employer, etc.

Which of these numbers are lies/pure BS/cannot be trusted?  And what information do you have to support your claim?

Visits, Admit Days, and Open Houses / Re: Wayne State: Worth it?
« on: March 13, 2011, 04:34:44 PM »
Thanks for your helpful comment.  I'm not sure which "numbers . . . are pure BS and cannot be trusted."

The US News ranking numbers?
The application numbers? (citation in my 1st post above)
The number of clinical profs at Wayne State?
The bar passage numbers? See my 1st post
The number of scholarships, and the dollar amounts? See, under "Financial Aid"

I assume you mean the employment numbers.  Yes, they've been pretty sketchy over the years.  That's why Vanderbilt started the Law School Transparency project to improve the quality of reporting with respect to employment numbers:  Here's MSU ( and Wayne's ( transparency numbers.  Toledo's Career Services website is here:

But you apparently have reason to believe that these numbers are untrustworthy.  Please let us know which numbers you don't believe, and the evidence you have for your skepticism.

Visits, Admit Days, and Open Houses / Re: Wayne State: Worth it?
« on: March 13, 2011, 12:02:00 PM »
I should have added to my reply above: if you are looking at the SE Michigan/NW Ohio market, you really should apply to Michigan State.  It is a strong up-and-coming school, w a nice facility on a fun campus w/ a serious commitment to student success.

Here is the MSU web page from its Career Services Office, showing how its graduates 'placed' last year:

The % w/ jobs 9 mos after graduation was very impressive in this economy--over 98%. But even more impressive was the number who are getting jobs out of state--almost half the class, over 29 states, as you can see from the link above.

After MI, the 2d favorite state for MSU grads is Illinois. Thirty-one MSU grads took the Illinois bar. Passage rate: 100%. That's even better than MSU's state-topping 94% for the Michigan bar.

Some students are scared away from MSU b/c the 'sticker price' looks a little high at $34K.  But:

"Over 50% of the 2009 class received scholarship assistance with the average award totaling $22,009." [Note: the program is even larger since 2010, so these numbers will be even more favorable for you]

If your credentials are good, apply.

Visits, Admit Days, and Open Houses / Re: Wayne State: Worth it?
« on: March 06, 2011, 09:24:58 AM »
Don't go to Wayne.  Ten years ago it was a borderline T2 school, but it isn't close anymore.  In 2008, US News mistakenly released numerical rankings for the T3.  Toledo and Michigan State were at the top of T3 (tied at 108, in a year when T2 extended down to 104 b/c of ties).  Wayne was deep in T3 at 125.  If US News starts ranking T3s every year (as it is planning to do:, then Wayne's inferiority to Toledo will become common knowledge.

The years since 2008 have not been kind.  In one year, from '09 to '10, Wayne's applications fell 11%.  In-state rival MSU's apps increased 27% in the same year.

I might add that Toledo is a much more 'student friendly' school.  The focus there is on preparing students to practice law when they graduate, and law firms have noticed the difference.  Anecdote: U of D Law school puts ads in the Wayne State student newspaper (the 'South End') taunting that U of D students "graduate practice ready."  Wayne can't respond to those ads, b/c practical skills are not a priority there.   Want to take clinical classes?  Wayne has 2 clinical profs, and one teaches a half load b/c he's the director and has to supervise the other one.  Wayne is now regarded as behind MSU and behind Toledo among Detroit's hiring partners.  If the $ is about the same, go to Toledo.

I have to disagree w/ louiebstef.  T3 covers a lot of ground--from 100 to 142 or so.  That's a huge range.  Would you tell a prospective law student that there's no difference between a school ranked 20 by US News, and one ranked 62?

In many parts of the country, 0Ls are choosing between 2 or 3 different T3s.  I'm pretty disappointed (tho not surprised) at the quality of information given to 0Ls by admissions depts.  The admission staffs at T3s in a competitive market will tell potential students that 1) their school has a better reputation among local practicing lawyers than the other local T3s, and 2) they are just about to break into T2.  (How do I know?  B/c I'm a former lawyer who teaches undergrads, and that's what all of them tell me).  Students have no way to judge the reliability of these competing and contradictory claims.   Given that schools are already fudging their employment numbers (and they are!), and that students are making $100K+ investments to go to law school, I think they deserve to see some objective measure of differences between T3s (even if that measure is imperfect).

I'd agree that there is little difference between a school ranked 105 and one ranked 109, but students are smart enough to know that, which makes it harmless to publish the rankings of closely-ranked schools.  But there is a real difference in reputation and job prospects between schools ranked 107 and 130 in the same market.  Students deserve to know if the gap is that large.

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