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Messages - NYC2L

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21
General Board / Re: TTT
« on: April 08, 2008, 01:35:34 AM »
You are a credit to your school I'm sure and you may have had legitimate reasons for attending it. You also may be completely satisfied with your future job. However, unless you received a significant scholarship throughout law school, you invested upwards of 100K and 3 years for a 60K return. Now, if you had started working right out of undergrad, you probably could have made 40-60K. That means that your "investment" in law school netted you a negative return . . . economically. Of course I realize that you may truly love the law. But for the average person deciding between law school and something else, that is an awful investment.

My major concern with T3 and T4 (and practically all schools for that matter) is that they are not honest with naive students about employment opportunities. Hence, students enter these law schools with certain expectations that, in the vast majority of cases, go unfulfilled. I am incredibly happy for you because you seem content and that is more than can be said for most law students. Still, there are issues with these schools that go beyond your success story.

Finally, USNEWS rankings do impact your education because the higher ranked schools get the best professors and attract the most qualified students who get high paying jobs and donate money to the school. That windfall enables those schools to build better facilities and institute clinics and other ancillary programs. Then, all these things combine together to attract even better professors and even more qualified students. Hence, USNEWS rankings, although self-fulling, drastically affect the educational quality of the schools. To suggest otherwise is to ignore reality.

22
"There is no getting around the system, which I hope will help to increase (at least minimally) the number of ETHICAL lawyers that exist out there."

I don't even know where to begin. First, you seem to be suggesting that the mere presence of a system that keeps tabs on students will produce more ethical attorneys. That is preposterous. Ethics are not something that depend on the method by which a person obtains their law degree.

Second, are you suggesting that the addition of lawyers who obtained their degree online will somewhere make the legal profession more ethical, even if minimally? And that somehow this relates back to requirements placed on students by the act of attending law school online? If so, put down the online kool-aid.

23
I'm going to have to disagree slightly with thorc954. Not every T3 and T4 should be disbanded. But all private for-profit one should. After the purge, the following T4 schools would remain: CUNY--Queens College, North Carolina Central University, Southern University (really cheap), University of North Dakota and University of the District of Columbia. I did not go through the T3's but many of them should go as well.

24
General Board / Re: TTT
« on: April 07, 2008, 03:47:54 PM »
I'll bite. Job prospects at biglaw for *all* schools outside of the T14 are poor to middling. For support, go to any firm's website and search for attorneys who went to a) T14, b)T20, c)T50, d)T2 and e)other. What you will find at V100 firms is that most attorneys graduated from T14 schools and there is a significant drop off after that. One caveat is region. A T50 school in the south may place okay at firms in Atlanta, Miami, etc., but not at all in NYC, Chicago, LA, SF, etc. However, T10 (maybe T14) graduates will place well in *every* region.

If someone goes to a T2 school or T1 for that matter outside of the T25, they are wed to their state or region for all intents and purposes. In other words, job prospects for that school are poor to middling in that region (top 5-20% for biglaw depending on the rank of the school; top 5-35% for other law firms) and practically nonexistent elsewhere (top 1-5% for big market biglaw; other regions probably to prefer grads from that region over others). Note that these numbers increase marginally as the rank of the school approaches T14, i.e, a school ranked around T25 probably approaches 35% in its region but lower elsewhere.

I cannot speak to quality of schools; that clearly would depend on the school. Prestige, however, relates to job prospects. Again, T2 schools may have a degree of prestige in their region or state and with firms that have had good experiences with that school's graduates in the past. But no T2 schools are "prestigious" in the general sense.

**This is the opinion of the author and does not reflect any research beyond experience at two dissimilarly ranked law schools**


25
General Board / Re: TTT
« on: April 07, 2008, 11:07:04 AM »
No. TTT schools are bad. They have horrible job prospects for everyone outside of the top 10%, conceal their real employment statistics from students and cost practically as much as good schools (unless the TTT is a state school).  They also are usually highly competitive and offer an inferior educational product. True, TTTT's are worse but that is not saying much because they should be shut down by the ABA.

26
1L job search / Re: bad ECONOMY = bad FALL 2008 OCIs?
« on: April 02, 2008, 05:24:24 PM »
Firms would much prefer to lay off 2nd or 3rd year associates rather than no-offering a bunch of summers. Why? A firm that no-offers receives a nasty black mark in the eyes of future law students. When the economy picks back up (as it inevitably will) those firms that no-offer summers will have a tough time recouping their reputations among law students.

In addition, the smart firms recognize that the down turn is temporary and will only reduce their summer classes as much as is necessary. Why? B/c when the economy turns around, those firms that drastically reduce their summer classes will suddenly find themselves with a dearth of junior to mid-level associates.

The best advice for those who will go through OCI this fall is to express interest in lots of different practice groups (don't pigeonhole yourself) b/c as corporate and structured finance contract, litigation and restructuring will surge. Also, people with SA positions this summer might want to buckle down more than usual b/c there will be more no-offers than last year (as a previous post seems to indicate).




27
Transferring / Re: T25 --> T20?
« on: April 02, 2008, 05:12:17 PM »
Group 1 - 10-15% (UVA)
Group 2 - 10-20% (Cornell, GULC)
Group 3 - top 1/3 - probably not worth the transfer absent personal reasons

Good luck.

28
Book Sales and Trades / Re: ME NEED YEAR ONE COOLEY LAW BUKS
« on: April 02, 2008, 11:35:40 AM »
This must be a sick, sick joke . . . if not then god help us all.

29
Transferring / Re: taking transfer questions
« on: April 01, 2008, 09:31:12 PM »
HYS are always long shots notwithstanding your GPA. That being said, top 5% (assuming you maintain this semester) puts you in the required range to pull off a successful transfer to one of those schools. As for NYU or Columbia, at top 5% you have a great shot of getting in. I wouldn't want to place percentage on it, put I would be surprised if you were not admitted to at least one (again, assuming the previous caveat).

The letter of rec will only matter if the professor knows you well and can write a great letter. That is significantly more important than the name of the professor. Similarly, the prestige of your undergrad is irrelevant. GPA accounts for probably 90% of the admittance equation.

I should divulge that I transferred from a T25 to a T5 with a GPA in the top 10%. Crappy undergrad, crappy LSAT, letters of rec from unknown professors who knew me, etc.

Good luck and keep your grades up!

30
Transferring / Re: Starting at Michigan State
« on: April 01, 2008, 09:10:32 PM »
All the posters are exactly right: Never enter law school with the sole intention of transferring. The rule of thumb is if you would not be happy graduating at the median of your class from the school you begin your studies at, do not go.

On the topic of transferring, if you were in the position to do so (and that is a gigantic if), going to a school ranked from 50-60 would provide many more opportunities than a T3. However, that is not to say that you should do that, for the reasons stated previously and others.

Finally, keep in mind that any schools out of the T20 (maybe) are regional. Absent those schools, you should only go to a school in the area that you want to practice law in following graduation. Hence, if you want to practice in Michigan, Michigan State is probably fine (especially with money); however, if you do not, don't go there expecting to transfer or land job outside of the region.

Good luck with everything.

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