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Messages - Ad oculos
« on: August 30, 2007, 08:22:09 PM »
So is this just a list of schools that teach directly to the bar?
Employment at graduation is not too relevant, because no one can work while they are studying for the bar anyway.
Um, are you kidding? Most desirable employers line up their work forces by graduation (good gov't, private firms). So a school's employment at graduation is a good proxy for its students' ability to land desirable work.
« on: August 30, 2007, 08:17:59 PM »
You're fighting an uphill battle to do civil rights/constitutional lit at the appellate level. Those are pretty coveted spots and usually go to those who clerk on the appellate level. You might look at smaller boutiques that focus on that area: there are a handful of public interest organizations that do civil rights cases, and you might be able to get our foot in the door that way.
« on: August 30, 2007, 08:15:33 PM »
I echo all of the above. Assuming your grades don't drop terribly, you're fine, though it can make it more difficult down the line to make a lateral move.
« on: August 30, 2007, 08:14:40 PM »
If we are speaking strictly about the V20, I would generally agree with you but for the fact that eleven people from my school alone ended up in the V20. I cannot speak for other schools.
What school? A school in a major market (e.g. NYC, Chicago) can land a handful from time to time, but this certainly isn't the norm among tier 3/tier 4 schools.
Of course it's a numbers game. Someone who takes a full ride at a tier 4 school but finishes #1 in his class can work in BIGLAW and be at the same firm as someone who took out $180k in student loans at a t14. Still, I'd argue that there is a ceiling for tier 3/tier 4 grads--it's tougher to lateral, it's much tougher to move to the bench, it's tougher to move into high level gov't work, etc. It's true that some tier 4 grads do quite well; it's also true that Bill Gates dropped out of college and is now filthy rich. But I wouldn't advise people to drop out of college if they want to be rich, just like I would tell people to take a long, hard look at law school if they want to work for a big firm but will be attending a lower ranked school. There are opportunities to work as a DA, PD, or the like, but it's not like student loans scale with school rank; it's pretty easy to run up huge debts at a terrible school, too. And those need to be paid back, unfortunately, and many people won't be making a great financial decision by going to law school.
« on: August 29, 2007, 12:54:38 PM »
And contrary to the poster that said it is next to impossible to get a BigLaw job out of a non-T14 school . . . he doesn't know what he's talking about. I will acknowledge that it is considerably more difficult, but to say it is impossible is a gross overstatement.
How many attorneys from tier 3 or tier 4 are hired into V20 firms each year? Half a dozen? You're guaranteed BIGLAW from a t14 if you're in the top three-quarters. Even the bottom quarter has a lot of success landing jobs. But at a tier 3/tier 4 school? Maybe the top one or two students have a legitimate shot.
I'm not saying that the end goal is BIGLAW or that everyone should aim for it. But don't mislead people by acting like tier 3/tier 4 students have a realistic shot at it.
And I agree with your analysis of non-BIGLAW job options. It's much better to go to a lower ranked school and take the scholarship money than it is to run up huge debts at a tier 2 that isn't going to offer significantly better placement options.
« on: August 28, 2007, 11:18:06 AM »
What are exit options?
Exit options are what you plan to do when you leave the firm.
« on: August 27, 2007, 11:14:26 PM »
What is PPP?
Also, what exactly is "the big four"?
In your opinion, what would be a good alternative to law? I want to make a middle-class income(50k+), but at the same time have time for hobbies and prospective family. What can one do in finances?
PPP=profits per partner.
The Big Four (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Four_auditors
Engineering is a good way to make a nice middle class income without working yourself to death. So is computer science. So is teaching. So are many non-entry level government jobs.
I don't know much about job paths for those in finance. Perhaps working at a bank?
« on: August 27, 2007, 09:42:59 PM »
So accountants work just as much as lawyers?
Accountants at the Big Four work just as much as lawyers. Their starting salaries are in the mid 40s. They have a 13 year or so partnership track, and then they have lower PPP at the end of it.
« on: August 27, 2007, 05:38:29 PM »
you do realize that there is a middle ground between big firms and small firms, right? I dont' expect to be making under 75k coming out of my school to start, unless i do horrible here for some reason.
Yes, of course. Unfortunately, the hours don't scale with the salaries; at most midlaw firms, you work 90% of the BIGLAW hours but make 60% of the money.
« on: August 27, 2007, 04:57:17 PM »
I'm not bashing. I'm pointing out that an overly-zealous guy who trolls law school message boards on behalf of his daughter may not be the best source of info.
Very, very, very few people from tier 2-4 make BIGLAW salaries. It certainly happens, but it's much more likely that a student graduates from tier 4 with tons of debt and no job. The OP needs to keep this in mind. If you're at the top, law can be very lucrative. But if you start to move down the food chain a bit, the options are significantly less.