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Messages - DanteHicks

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Online Law Schools / Re: Non-Bar Law Degree
« on: January 31, 2008, 07:50:40 PM »
some interesting points thorc...i will respond since you took the time to chime in (according to your numbered comments):

1) does the "no work" (wink wink) psuedo requirement from ABA work on these part-time programs (i honestly don't know ..would have to research it)
2) while i agree with your point here to a degree, it would be for the same reasons i mentioned before; plus maybe someone couldn't muster LSAT, GPA, etc.
3) i agree with your examples in parens... except for the level of education one; quality of students is assumed to be higher based on reasons you give in # 2, and i agree 100% job opportunities blow away non-ABA...with that said also consider that many non-ABA seek a solo practice or to create a small partnership (usually with fellow non-ABA classmates)
4) would be interesting to know all the schools applicable here and reasons for being non-ABA...mayhap I'll reseach it further one day (hell who's got time now..aside from writing these posts hahaha?)
5) i have to totally disagree with your point here; until it could be shown otherwise
6) it seems to be true that ABA students will more than likely pass the bar on their 1st attempt whereas non-ABA struggle..but...again need to look at states with non-ABA schools and look at the passage statistics to see if the trend is still there or if things are improving.  jobs as lawyers...see my comment at the end of # 3

why anyone logical would want to go to an a non-ABA school?  well, i have 2 answers for that.  (a) circumstances only permit as such & (b) who said they actually "wanted" to go...might be their ONLY option....we all do things in life we don't "want" to do.

later gator.

Online Law Schools / Re: Non-Bar Law Degree
« on: January 31, 2008, 03:45:42 PM »
dear jeffislouie:

obviously the remark about offices and library seats was tongue-in-cheek.  I've yet to visit my professors in their offices but that's just me.  i just wanted to point out the discrimination towards non-ABA students...and clearly there is.  One almost feels a sense of a caste system (which still exist in some parts of the world mind you such as in Inida…but things are improving).

it's interesting how people are casting aside the points i've made...they're not absolute...but I can't ignore them either.  will all of you incessantly put down law students in these schools?  regarding your point on why some schools can't get accreditation, some schools probably will never even seek many new univeristies can a city have?  maybe some, sadly, are indeed JD mills.  if a state says "hey if you can pass our bar exam you can practice"  then what's the problem.

one last point.  Jones Law School in AL (attached to Faulkner University, some private, christian school) only just recently got ABA approval (they're on probabtion i think).  now they were seeking approval for quite some time and finally got it.  mostly a vast improvement to their law library sealed the deal.  same program now...same professors  but now ABA approved!  what about the class that JUST graduated before approval?  Will they be grandfathered in?  Nope.  So sad, too bas I guess huh?

I don't want this to turn into a d.ick-measuring contest in here.  this is really not about you or's about the discrimination of good folks who are tryin to become a lawyer.  stop the bashing is all.

these were only my opinions based on what i thought were just neutral observations.  if you want to be a poster-child for the ABA that's your business.  if you really want to shake this hornet's some research on articles that question whether or not passing a bar exam proves may find some interesting comments...perhaps slanted, sure...but "what if?".

Online Law Schools / Re: Non-Bar Law Degree
« on: January 31, 2008, 03:24:38 PM »
Dante, non-aba law students are too dumb to get into aba law schools.  That should be enough of a reason to think they are inferior.  That is just my opinion, plus that of everyone with a pulse that can think either logically or coherently.

Oh, a few boos from the gallery.  One broad stroke and that's the end of it eh?  "non-aba law students are too dumb to get into aba law schools."  Said with such finality, yet without much thought.  I happen to know for a fact that there are many very successful attorneys out there, as well as judges, that went to non-ABA schools.

I have a pulse and am we are then at a crossroads at opinions, therefore, one of us is right and one of us is wrong.

Again...tell me HOW the law you learn in an ABA school, the ACTUAL subject matter, differs from non-ABA.  Don't tell me "it just does"; elaborate on it.  I've already made some points regarding this.  I've yet to see anyone convince me otherwise yet...and yes I'm open to being convinced.

I will reiterate in brief:
(1) Same casebooks/hornbooks...the same (granted... not every school uses the casebook at every school, eg. a Torts casebook, but even if they didn't the key cases are likely to be the same).  Marbury v. Madison is the same in an ABA school just as it is in a non-ABA school.  Mayhap the ABA school will spend an extra 16 hours on that case [insert smirk here].
(2) Same common law, doctrines, etc.  BarBri is BarBri.
(3) Multi-state & essay finals can't vary that much...I've seen the test bank archives at Harvard...didn't see anything too fancy such as a flaming Harvard logo on the exam...same crap-ola.
(4) Same Bar exam (go figure!?)

To be fair I WILL admit these items:
(1) Bar passage rates certainly are MUCH higher with ABA students when non-ABA students also take the exam with them although I'll need to double check the statistics but I'm failry certain that's an accurate assessment.
(2) ABA schools have Law Review..which is admirable and "good for the balls" as they say (ladies I mean no offense..just an's good for you too!).
(3) Career options are certainly disproportionate for non-ABA students when compared to their counterparts.

Ok now...but's also be fair...sometimes a person's 2nd career (hell maybe even 3rd) is the law profession.  These group's age range is probably 35-50 (yes wide range but I bet I'm close if you looked at enrollment at non-ABA schools).  Most people in this group will have a job of some sort, have a family with children, etc..  A non-ABA school is probably their only realistic shot at becoming an attorney.  More than likely they will continue to work (at least part-time but more likely full-time) and attend a non-ABA school in the evenings.  They will enter programs that will take them 2.75 - 4.5 years to complete.  They will be exhausted between work and school as well as juggling time for their familys...but from the sentiment I'm hearing in these posts, to hell with them right?  If you're older than 25 forget being a lawyer right?  Why bother?  After all, they're going to a non-ABA school and they're worthless anyways right?

Lack of empathy is a serious deficiency folks...but maybe that's why you're becoming lawyers right?  Walk in someone else's shoes, look at the whole picture some research (if you'd REALLY like to know) and see who are the non-ABA lawyers across the U.S. and how did they fare?
 (excuse any typos/misspellings....falling asleep reading about estate taxation)

Online Law Schools / Re: Non-Bar Law Degree
« on: January 31, 2008, 11:10:42 AM »
Again this is just my opinion.

I have indeed looked at the ABA requirements that make them superior; office for every professor and a seat for every student in the library.


Online Law Schools / Re: Non-Bar Law Degree
« on: January 31, 2008, 08:30:58 AM » you all DO agree that the ABA is just a monopoly!

Those arguing that the ABA is superior because the ABA says they are proves my point for me.  Thanks!

Once again I beg the question, please tell me how different is ABA compared to non-ABA education wise?

Again these comments are only my opinions based on observations and nothing more...what I think means nothing to anyone else.

Online Law Schools / Re: Non-Bar Law Degree
« on: January 29, 2008, 10:36:46 AM »
In these times, the reality is that the ABA could be construed as a monopoly on legal education.  While it's true there is a need in the legal profession to have set standards, watchdogs, etc....ultimately it's just a way to charge law students more money.  I have read posts like these time and time again and kept silent but no more.

Is a law degree from a non-ABA school worthless?  Well, what is your definition of worthless?  Can't practice big law, hard to practice outside of the state your non-ABA school was in, stigma; all of these, sadly, are truths of having a non-ABA degree.  Ok, but why is it this way?  Can it be said that overall, the law education received at an ABA school is superior?  If you can say that then can you say that without smirking or can you say that while looking at yourself in a mirror?  I think not.

Here's some ideas to consider (mind you I'm speaking about brick 'n mortar non-ABA schools..not sure yet what to make of online law degrees):

(1)  A non-ABA school (that's worth a flip and yes...there are such schools) utilizes the SAME casebooks, hornbooks, etc.  SAME COMMON LAW, same rules, same principles and by gosh...I would bet a shiny new silver dollar that students from BOTH ABA & non-ABA use the SAME study guides (canned briefs, Gilberts, Glannons..whatever).  Law is law...period.

(2) Students from non-ABA & ABA schools take the SAME...hello...SAME bar exam.  The SAME.  Does the curve get messed with?  Do ABA students get more benefit of the doubt when their essays are graded? Who really knows? Would any of the test graders tell us if they did? Probably not.

(3) Who are your professors?  Of course who am I to judge...yet...think about these facts objectively.  Traditionally, non-ABA schools tend to utilize actual attorneys and judges to teach class whereas ABA schools tend to use professors who mostly live in the academic realm.  More philosophy, more mind games, etc.  Of course there are exceptions and I know that a great deal of ABA professors are legal geniuses and have and do practice law.  In the non-ABA setting, students may get more of a practical education,  particularly in the state-specific area.

(4)  Truth be told....yes 0Ls & your 3rd or 4th can TEACH YOURSELF the law!!  Shhhhhh...don't tell anyone.  That's what you do in law school anyways...well plus the hazing and mind-numbing case briefing.  Please don't misconstrue this as egotistical or unfounded gibberish...I'm just a simple, average intelligent guy who happened to notice the truth and will say it openly.  Those of you who are in denial...think about it some more.  I do not know it all and I'm by no means brilliant...just simple obervations.  Does law school have it's usefulness?  Yes of keeps you disciplined, focused, and provides an easy way to measure your progress, but most importantly they give you the basic tools to analyze law and cases.  In the end though...really you're teaching yourself.  So again..ABA...what's the point?  Huge student loans...the price of paying for a name..just like a pair of Levis.

You are paying for the privilege to play lawyer in big arenas.  It's an old elite club where you have to pay your dues.  If that's what you need or what you should grasp it and never apologize!!  For those of you who want to practice the noble profession of law but can't afford it or couldn't go while you're younger and now have to fend for a family...then non-ABA will let you fulfill that dream.

Believe this or not...some young attorneys with mortgage-like student loans have actually said these words when they met other attorneys who attended a non-ABA school:  "Man...I wish I had gone that route".

We all come from different walks of life.  Do not demean someone because of WHERE they got their JD or how much they paid for it!  Walk in someone else's shoe first before you criticize non-ABA schools!

Where do I attend school?  You'd be surprised actually.  Does it really matter where I attend law school?  No...that's my whole point here.

Current Law Students / Re: Studying for Civ Pro
« on: November 16, 2006, 07:17:00 AM »
Had Civ Pro last year...what a bear!

Anyways, might I suggest the following:

(1) Acing Civil Procedure by Benjamin Spencer - provides GREAT checklists you work through to analyze pretty much any civ pro hypo.  This small, yet informative book really helped me "ACE civ pro".
(2) Civ Pro flash cards by "Law in a Flash" series...some great mnemonics in there (eg. SPINSVROW saved my butt; see flash cards to see what I mean).  Also, they have some decent, albeit short & comedic, hypos in the flash cards.
(3) Gilberts

More tips (refers to Federal Civ pro Rules mostly):
(1) Know Rule 6 (Time) whether you think you need to or not.
(2) Form of Pleadings and filing deadlines, etc.
(3) Rule 12!!
(4) Know how to really analyze personal and subject matter jurisdiction:
   (a) Personal Jurisdiction - know how to get it traditionally and with modern ways
   (b) Know corporation domicile and/or place of business tests (nerve center,muscle,   etc.)
   (c) Know Pennoyer, International Shoe, etc cases and how they get you personal jurisdiction
   (d) Diversity!!! (know rules concerning amount in controversy and what can be included in that amount and what can't!
   (e) Notice!!
(5)  Removal (how & when), forum non-conveniens (sp?), Venue

Essay Tips:
(1) IRAC or Appellate Opinion approach to writing
(2) Write your answer like you are explaining it to a 4 year-old child; show the professor HOW you get your answer.
(3) Do not assume facts not given!!  Hypos sometimes seem crazy but if its not in there it didn't happen.
(4) Manage your time on exam wisely.  Spend about 2 minutes deciding what parts of the exam you will tackle first (if the exam format allows it).

I'm sure I may have left some stuff out but I don't want to post an entire outline here.

Good luck!!


I feel for you Wayne.  I currently live in Madison, AL and learned from day 1 that you can't drive fast in Madison.  My first day there I got a warning for going 36 in a 35 mph zone.  The City of Madison is one big speed trap.

(Not legal advice) You could hope for the cop not showing up and that could be the end of it...maybe you could get driving school in lieu of points going on your license...not sure.

Current Law Students / Re: lawyers and white shirts
« on: April 25, 2006, 06:31:49 PM »
I"m not worried about the white shirts...people are still condeming me for wearing white socks with black shoes.


Current Law Students / Re: Finals
« on: April 25, 2006, 06:28:57 PM »

Now back to beating my head against my civ pro II outline and hypos and wishing I had never heard of summary judgments, judgment as a matter of law, res judicata, etc.


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