Law School Discussion

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Messages - T. Durden

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41
Are you sure about those numbers for WashU? I had heard their median was 167.

they're from the LSAC website ...

42
Given the failure of my last thread, based upon the 2008 [sic] aba data, as indicated by wkjr, the better way may be to use the 2008 entering class numbers as reported on law schools' websites.

harvard                   LSAT 170/176            GPA 3.95 / 3.74
columbia                 LSAT 170/172/175     GPA   3.58/3.69/3.82
chicago                   LSAT 169/171/173     GPA 3.57/3.68/3.8
berkeley                  LSAT 164/167/170     GPA 3.7/3.82/3.92
stanford                   UNAVAILABLE?
Yale                        LSAT 169/173/177     GPA 3.81/3.90/3.97
NYU                        LSAT173/169             GPA  3.9/3.6
UPenn                    LSAT 166/171            GPA 3.46/3.88
UVa                        UNKNOWN?
UMich                     LSAT166/169/170      GPA 3.54/3.7/3.82
Northwestern          LSAT166/170/172      GPA 3.4/3.7/3.8
Cornell                    UNKNOWN?
duke                       LSAT165/169/170      GPA 3.55/3.74/3.85
georgetown            LSAT167/170/172       GPA 3.42/3.67/3.81
Vanderbilt               LSAT 164/168/169      GPA  3.52/3.72/3.86       
UCLA                      LSAT 164/168/169    GPA 3.49/3.74/3.87
UTAustin                 LSAT 164/167/168    GPA 3.42/3.62/3.82
USoCal                   LSAT 165/166/167     GPA  3.48/3.60/3.71

 

So far, I'm guessing:

1. Yale
2. Harvard
3. Columbia
4. Stanford (for not reporting)
5. Chicago (for gaining in gpa)
5. NYU  (for not improving as much as Chicago in gpa and for not having as good reputation scores )
5. Berkeley (for improving a bit on lsat and GPA)
8. UPenn (for paling in comparison to the above in raw scores)
9. UVa?
10. Northwestern (for staying the same when others appear to improve)
11. Cornell?
12.  UMich (for dropping an LSAT point at the 25%)
13. Georgetown (improvement on lsat 75%).
14. Duke (for dropping a couple points on lsat and gpa)
15. Vanderbilt
15. UCLA (for picking up an LSAT point at the 25% mark, possibly at median, helping to make up the one point gap)
17. UTAustin
18. USoCal

ETA:More Schools Information

what about GW and WUSTL?

GW: 3.4/3.86 & 165/168
WUSTL: 3.3/3.7 & 163/167

43
i attended on a partial scholarship and thus owe a total of ~60k or so. i expect that if i am sufficently disciplined i can have this sum paid off within 2 or 2.5 years or so.

investing? seriously? como se dice? note to all law students out there: "investing" is not some sort of amorphic concept that is guaranteed to generate dividends once you reach a predetermined salary level. it's high risk and it's long term. first year's do not venure into the realm of stocks, etc. in search of means to pay off student loans, credit card debit, and the like. the mere suggestion that this is something that i should be doing at this point to either 1) alleviate the debt burden, or 2) obtain some form of tax relief is borderline mind-numbing ... 

how do you know he wasn't asking about investing for the long run?  doesn't necessarily seem like he meant investing in order to pay off loans.

Isn't that a sincere question?  Don't a lot of associates, even 25 year olds with substantial debt, set aside a % for 401K? 

ok fine i'll assume that it's a fair question ... as long as you're willing to explain to me why it is that you think that it's a wise decision to divert funds from loan payments to stock options when interest rates are what they are and stock returns are what they current are ... do you know something that i don't?

44
I donít disagree with you the cost to income relationship between law school and the highest paying jobs is pretty extreme.

Well in that case we are in agreement that it's unfair that certain elements of wealthy american society receive monumental tax breaks whereas other elements carry a substantial portion of the burden.

45
i dont hate lawyers, but i'm getting a good hate worked up for him.

hate? for what? complaining about the current state of the income tax structure? let me simplify my complaint for you: the "pure income earners" in this country carry absurd portion of the tax burden. *important note for LSD idealougues:* this is NOT a rich v. poor debate. phew, thank god we avoided that. this is a "income earners pay a ridic tax burden" v. "the huge % of very wealthy americans who get by by claiming unfair capital gains earnings and pay only 15% of total earnings to tax" argument. you may not understand it, fair enough. you'll get it once you start collecting that pay check.
do we still hate each other? ok fine. i knew that we would. ok ok i agree, the top 45% of society should pay at least 40% of earnigns into the tax system. there, can we be friends now? so, excited for that first real job once you graduate from law school?
i have children older than you.

trad non-trad arg. devastating, absolutetly devastating.

wasnt an argument.  'twas pure rebuttal for the comments bolded above.

1) i'm far too drunk for this,
2) your "rebuttal" is predicated upon the assumption that your pre-law school salary rivals mine,
3) given that you're currently in law school, i'm guessing that it was not, and
4) as long as you think that those who bring home 160k should pay the same tax despite profession we are agreement.

46
why do you ask? with which firm did you accept with? which city? curious as to life style?

mostly i'm trying to gage how things are going by asking as many people as possible.  probably not your firm, definitely not your city, and not particularly (i've heard enough about that from friends).

trying to guage how things are going? depends on the brand of law. but rest assured, i'm sure that things are drastically different at your firm (i.e. i'm sure that you won't be billing at $350 an hour, i'm sure that your partners won't be pulling in 1 - 2.5 mil a year, i'm sure that all of what you're going to do from now until your death is for the greater good - feel better? good. me too).

i actually think that's the rate at which first years at my place will be billing, and i know the ppp was in that range last year.  as for the greater good, well i believe the greater good is what's good for me, so hopefully.  :)

what brand of law do you do anyway?

actually my point was to show that we were more similar than different despite the rhetoric, but i appreciate the confirmation. brand of law? ain't tellin' - though i will tell you that i'm currently abroad (as a junior attny, obviously) on a multi-billion dollar litigation (hence the late-night-for-me / mid-afternoon-for-you posting]

47
i dont hate lawyers, but i'm getting a good hate worked up for him.

hate? for what? complaining about the current state of the income tax structure? let me simplify my complaint for you: the "pure income earners" in this country carry absurd portion of the tax burden. *important note for LSD idealougues:* this is NOT a rich v. poor debate. phew, thank god we avoided that. this is a "income earners pay a ridic tax burden" v. "the huge % of very wealthy americans who get by by claiming unfair capital gains earnings and pay only 15% of total earnings to tax" argument. you may not understand it, fair enough. you'll get it once you start collecting that pay check.

do we still hate each other? ok fine. i knew that we would. ok ok i agree, the top 45% of society should pay at least 40% of earnigns into the tax system. there, can we be friends now? so, excited for that first real job once you graduate from law school?

i have children older than you.

trad non-trad arg. devastating, absolutetly devastating.

48
i dont hate lawyers, but i'm getting a good hate worked up for him.

hate? for what? complaining about the current state of the income tax structure? let me simplify my complaint for you: the "pure income earners" in this country carry absurd portion of the tax burden. *important note for LSD idealougues:* this is NOT a rich v. poor debate. phew, thank god we avoided that. this is a "income earners pay a ridic tax burden" v. "the huge % of very wealthy americans who get by by claiming unfair capital gains earnings and pay only 15% of total earnings to tax" argument. you may not understand it, fair enough. you'll get it once you start collecting that pay check.

do we still hate each other? ok fine. i knew that we would. ok ok i agree, the top 45% of society should pay at least 40% of earnigns into the tax system. there, can we be friends now? so, excited for that first real job once you graduate from law school?

This is because ďpure income earnersĒ donít contribute much to the system. America has never been, until recently, all about being an employee. Tax benefits are given to those who create jobs, own business or have equity/real estate. Because they ADD something to the economy, they create jobs salary employees do not. Donít like, sorry then donít strive to be a worker bee. Start your own firm, rather than sucking of the teat of those that had the balls to do it before you. Working for someone else has never been the path to riches in this county, its has always been to create wealth yourself by owning the instrumentalities of commerce.

I donít get this argument or sense of entitlement that you should expect riches for just doing your job when you have traded the uncertainty of creating jobs and risk of losing your capital for the certainty of having a job without any relative risk (i.e. you have put fourth nothing but time for education to create value). We reward risk takers not salary makers. Your nothing more than a higher paid worker bee, donít like it, take the risk to create your own wealth or come to terms with leaving it someone elseís hands and paying a higher rate in taxes because you donít add wealth to the system.


It's impossible to guage "risk." Who is to say that the highschool dropout who starts a small business is more likely to "make it" than the T1 law school graduate with biglaw aspirations? Absent those from Yale law, ALL of know how difficult it is when coming to obtaining that 160k market rate "dream job." Facts are facts, the last time I looked at the bimodal distribution less than 15% of law school graduates were walking into market rate jobs. What does that tell you? It should tell you a couple of things: first of all, it should tell you that though the competition to enter law school at some levels is borderline pathetic, at the higher levels it is the most stringent form of competition that tihs country sees in terms of graduate school admissions, and 2) entering law school and taking on high 6 figure debt is an absurd risk when you consider the actual probabilities of "making it" in a salary sense. By these considerations, the risk element encounted by law students matches (if not exceeds) the risk encountered by small business owners in this country.

as to the "they create jobs" arg, this is true in as much as they already receive tax cuts for payouts made to employees, etc. it's not a simple 15%; the 15%; is post biz expenses. fair? no way. look at the percentages. income earners carry a vastly disproportionatly share of teh overall tax burden at the upper echelons.

49
why do you ask? with which firm did you accept with? which city? curious as to life style?

mostly i'm trying to gage how things are going by asking as many people as possible.  probably not your firm, definitely not your city, and not particularly (i've heard enough about that from friends).

trying to guage how things are going? depends on the brand of law. but rest assured, i'm sure that things are drastically different at your firm (i.e. i'm sure that you won't be billing at $350 an hour, i'm sure that your partners won't be pulling in 1 - 2.5 mil a year, i'm sure that all of what you're going to do from now until your death is for the greater good - feel better? good. me too).


50
why do you ask? with which firm did you accept with? which city? curious as to life style?

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