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Messages - turrets

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1
1L job search / Re: Firms' Responses
« on: January 25, 2008, 09:20:14 PM »
Grades:
Proskauer
Mayer Brown
Hogan (DC)
Steptoe (DC)

Giving Interviews:
Weil

Class Full:
Just about everyone else

2
1L job search / Firm Who Have Given 1L Interviews
« on: December 22, 2007, 05:47:47 PM »
I'm sure everyone who has done the 1L mail merge has been receiving plenty of no answers, rejections, and requests for grades.

But, I do know that some people have already started interviewing places.

What firms and office locations have given interviews?

To avoid any awkwardness only use Firm XX has interviewed for the YY office.


3
1L job search / Re: Company doing email mail merge
« on: November 30, 2007, 10:17:00 PM »
You guys are stellar.

I found the website:

http://www.approachthebench.com

and here's the thread about the service
http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/students/index.php/topic,3470.msg24002.html#msg24002

4
1L job search / Company doing email mail merge
« on: November 23, 2007, 12:33:56 PM »
So a bunch of ppl have asked how to get the email addresses from NALP and no one has a good answer.

I vaguely remember finding a post either here or somewhere else that charged $30 and pulled out all the email addresses for the firm and sent out cover letters and resumes to them.

Anyone remember the name of the website?

Or figure out how to get email addresses from nalp. One could write a script but that is just too much work.

5
Depends on what you want to do. Law review is monkey work, but ppl do it for the prestige. So you're wondering whether Harvard prestige > top 40 prestige + law review prestige + top 3 prestige/benefits. And the answer depends on what you want to do.

Stay at Top 40:
-Want to practice biglaw in the region where your school is located
-Interested in a post-school clerkship
-Don't want to deal with hassle of starting over

Harvard:
-Might leave the law after some years
-Want to practice in nyc or other top 3 legal market. Although with your grades you should be able to, but it might be more difficult for firms that don't oci at your school
-Want to go into academia

The risk of lower grades at the school you xfer into is nonexistent. The ppl in the middle of the class at HYSCCN are still getting whatever jobs they want, and if you've already done so well already you "get" how to beat law school exams.

6
New rankings are out, and Penn is tied at sixth place.

Last year Penn has the lowest academic (4.3, 10th) and lawyer assessment (4.5, 9th in a tie) of almost any school in the top 10 except for Duke, which is also tied and was 11th last year. (http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leiter/2007/03/us_news_reputat.html). I won't argue with the actual way this data is gathered.

Still, I'd like to know

-Why Penn places worse than its peers in this regard
-How it achieves such a higher ranking despite these numbers. If they're lying to usnwr wouldn't another school cry foul? If they've figured out some usnwr loophole wouldn't other schools use the same glitch?

Separately from the rankings issues, I'd like to know
-Why does Penn have such low SCOTUS placement (according to Leiter, linked below)
-When Penn says they were ranked 3rd by a law school student satisfaction survey, I assume they're talking about the Law School Survey of Student Engagement. Anyone have any data on law school student satisfaction? Or can back up Penn's 3rd ranking with the whole list? (http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1114679117976)

Leiter asks a similar question and answers by saying that differences in academic/practitioner reputation from usnwr rankings is because usnwr uses highly manipulatable data (http://www.leiterrankings.com/usnews/guide.shtml). I'd like to find more resources, data, links, articles about Penn and the fudgeable data.

Seto, also linked below, asks why Stanford ranks so highly even though it has a low 75% lsat score relative to Harvard and Yale. His breakdown is extremely interesting and answers my ages-old question about this. Similar comparisons for Penn would be cool. Most helpful would be student expenditure data since that is what drove the Stanford over HLS ranking last year.

Although my question concerns Penn, compiling these links should be useful for anyone comparing schools.

This is what I've got so far:

1. The Puzzle of Penn Law School Ranking (more like this would be ideal)
http://agoraphilia.blogspot.com/2005/05/puzzle-of-penn-law-schools-ranking.html

2. How to Rank Law Schools, Leiter
http://www.law.indiana.edu/ilj/volumes/v81/no1/5_Leiter.pdf
"A whole generation of undergraduates [have] the misleading impression that Penn (#7 of late in U.S. News) and Michigan (#7 or #8 in U.S. News) are actually competitive with Chicago." Lists other examples of schools that are possibly under or over ranked.

3. "Where to Find the Whole Truth" and "The $8.78 Million Dollar Maneuver"
NY Times
http://newsinfo.iu.edu/news/page/normal/2336.html
I thought perhaps there was Fall/Spring Part-time/Full-time faculty gaming at Penn like at Columbia, but ABA data show stable numbers. However, additional information on UPenn expenditures might be helpful.

4. Leiter Rankings - only as a check on us news rankings. I understand there's another bag of problems with these.
Penn isn't in the same group as some of its peers for
Endowment: http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leiter/2006/09/top_20_law_scho.html
SCOTUS Placements: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/1996_06_scotus_clerks.shtml
Teaching Placements: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2006job_teaching.shtml

But does well for other measures:
http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2003faculty_quality.shtml
Business Law: http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2003faculty_businesslaw.shtml
Law and Econ: http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2003faculty_economics.shtml

5. How Employment at 9 Months is calculated, how it can be manipulated
http://agoraphilia.blogspot.com/2007/03/how-us-news-calculates-employment-at-9_22.html

6. Understanding the US News Rankings
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=937017&high=%20seto
Lots of interesting stuff based on interviews with the US News ppl. For instance, change the 9 months employment figure by 5% of the worst ranked usnwr school, and you can cause changes in the top 10. (Pg. 19)

7. How Far Will Law School Go to Win the Rankings Game, National Jurist
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2007/01/national_jurist.html
Nothing new, but sums up the issues well. Leiter seems to be the only one that wants to "name names".

7
Studying for the LSAT / Re: already taken my first diag test, and...
« on: March 17, 2007, 02:46:57 AM »
With a 160 diag (great score first time btw), and a desire to take the Sept lsat, I highly recommend taking Testwell if you are in Boston or Testmasters/Powerscore if you are elsewhere in the country.

Yes, you could do it alone. But there are mistakes to be made when studying alone. For instance, I remember when doing preptests 20-35 my weakness was the logic games and strength was the passages and short arguments. I worked tirelessly on the games, and by test 34ish, I was only getting 2 or 3 wrong. With the lsat 2 months away, I thought I'd be in great shape. Then I took tests 36-39: I aced the games sections bc the section was much easier, but the reading comp and logical reasons was markedly harder. I didn't take the test when I was scheduled.

Also, if you are serious about the T-14 you'll want to prepare by taking as many tests as possible, and taking tests, and figuring out what you got wrong and why is a time consuming process.

The change in the test around this time is common knowledge that an instructor in a course could tell you, but not something you'll find in the logical reasoning bible or the logic games bible.

8
Where should I go next fall? / Re: I'm scared of UChicago
« on: March 10, 2007, 07:51:29 AM »
Yaayy! I'm glad my post created some discussion. Thanks for your response MindTheGap. My grading curve post was meant to illustrate that while a student may get a break at some schools with a visiting prof or two, that won't happen to Uchic. This was meant to be a plus, bc it means grades are more uniform/consistent and another classmate doesn't get to benefit from randomly getting a generous visiting prof.

I agree with the "mathematical silliness" comment: with fewer spots meaning fewer people competing for them. Anyone who's been in a curved class of 10 people, and a curved class of 100 people knows the impact class size can have. In my personal exp, I worked harder in a smaller, curved class ... I also learned more in the smaller class than the big one. Granted, a 10 person class may not be analogous to chicago's smaller class size.

Sooner called my last two points silly, and said "the only thing that matters is the result (that job you get), not the process." I think the topic of this entire thread shows that the vast majority of people here disagree with you, and believe the process absolutely matters. And both a smaller class like Uchic, or a larger class like Georgetown, each have + and -. And I'm not trying to talk myself out of Chicago, I'm actually leaning toward it, and talking out the characteristics so I can be confident of my choice...

Since some viewed the first post not positive, here are the other things I learned from the people I talked to:

1. The education is top rate. No graduate had any complaint about the education quality they received. In spite of Uchic's smaller class size, it places third overall for SCOTUS clerks (45) from 1996-2006, behind Yale (70), and Harvard (95). (source: Leiter)
2. Grads use the "rigor" perception to their advantage with employers. Some commented that some employers did not ask to see transcripts for summer positions.
3. Profs are approachable and nice (normal other places too). Offices are in the library and the "rule" is that their door must be open if they are in their office. And there are these for credit reading groups that meet at a prof's houses.
4. Softball - for whatever reason softball at law schools enjoys good participation and competes against other law schools.

-Quarter system: Compress a semester's worth of material into a quarter. Fewer weeks to study, cram, procrastinate, etc.

This is wrong. Standard first year semester-long courses take TWO QUARTERS at Chicago (i.e., Torts, CrimLaw, Contracts, Property, and Civil Procedure are all broken up into two quarters). There is definitely not a feeling of cramming.

-Cold Calling and Assigned Seats: most law schools and profs lay off starting 2L year, ppl start skipping classes, etc. Uchic second semester 3Ls are still getting cold called in class, and are have to be "on".

There is definitely still assigned seats and cold-calling 2/3L year. But it is wrong to say people don't slack off. 3Ls in particular are notorious slackers. If you tell a prof "sorry I didn't read" they will move on.

-Hyde Park: No matter how Uchic pitches this "vibrant community" in the glossy brochures, let's just come right out and say it's not Studio 54. One consequence is that there are not as many nice bars, nightlife, or fun options, which results in small(ish) house parties thrown by ppl living in/around Hyde Park. Yes, the bars downtown are fabulous, but everyone doesn't truck down there every thurs, fri, and sat. If my weekend social option is a small houseparty, I might stay in the libs a smidge longer. Also, if I'm going to a houseparty, I'm not suffering from the Sunday morning aftermath and will probably also be able to get the libs a little earlier/quicker.

Absolutely correct that Hyde Park is not where you will want to hang out. There is enough stuff around so that you can go get lunch, grab dinner, etc. but it is not where you are going to spend a lot of your social time (except for apartment-parties).

-Law and Economics: Cases in any law school are analyzed from a variety of perspectives: social, political, etc. While that variety may change from law school to law school (and class to class at UofC), the economics angle is ever present, and stressed.

Chicago probably does have more L&E options available than most schools. But the actual integration of L&E with the curriculum varies heavily from prof to prof. There are 2 or 3 1L profs who use it a lot. After that, you can easily avoid it if you want to.

-Grading curve: those visiting profs who try to bump the curve up to a B+ get a nice talking to from the dean to knock it off. B/B- is what the class is curved to.

Irrelevant. We have a lower and tighter grading curve than most schools. But it doesn't matter. You're being compared against your peers, who are on the same lower/tighter grading curve. The use of numbers rather than letters obfuscates this further.

-Small class size: granted you can be in lower half or maybe lower 25% of your UofC class and still get a big law job, but with a smaller class size, the number of spots in the top 10% or top 20% are that much smaller, and what group of students doesn't enter law school wanting to be in that demographic.

This is mathematically silly. Sure, there are fewer "spots" but there are far fewer people competing for those spots.

9
Where should I go next fall? / Re: I'm scared of UChicago
« on: March 09, 2007, 05:02:25 AM »
I'm seriously thinking about UChicago and I have the same concerns about "rigor". Many alumni I have talked said they heard the word plenty before coming to the law school, but didn't understand exactly what it meant. Here's the breakdown from those alumni and students I've talked to:

-Quarter system: Compress a semester's worth of material into a quarter. Fewer weeks to study, cram, procrastinate, etc.

-Cold Calling and Assigned Seats: most law schools and profs lay off starting 2L year, ppl start skipping classes, etc. Uchic second semester 3Ls are still getting cold called in class, and are have to be "on".

-Hyde Park: No matter how Uchic pitches this "vibrant community" in the glossy brochures, let's just come right out and say it's not Studio 54. One consequence is that there are not as many nice bars, nightlife, or fun options, which results in small(ish) house parties thrown by ppl living in/around Hyde Park. Yes, the bars downtown are fabulous, but everyone doesn't truck down there every thurs, fri, and sat. If my weekend social option is a small houseparty, I might stay in the libs a smidge longer. Also, if I'm going to a houseparty, I'm not suffering from the Sunday morning aftermath and will probably also be able to get the libs a little earlier/quicker.

-Law and Economics: Cases in any law school are analyzed from a variety of perspectives: social, political, etc. While that variety may change from law school to law school (and class to class at UofC), the economics angle is ever present, and stressed.

-Grading curve: those visiting profs who try to bump the curve up to a B+ get a nice talking to from the dean to knock it off. B/B- is what the class is curved to.

-Small class size: granted you can be in lower half or maybe lower 25% of your UofC class and still get a big law job, but with a smaller class size, the number of spots in the top 10% or top 20% are that much smaller, and what group of students doesn't enter law school wanting to be in that demographic.

10
Where should I go next fall? / Re: Seat Deposit Deadline
« on: March 05, 2007, 03:36:10 AM »
Do NOT mess with the deposit deadline.

I know someone who forgot, sent it in but fedex messed up her overnight getting there 3 days late, and there was nothing the school could do because it had already started sending out letters to people on the waitlist. In the end, the school was able to accommodate her because the numbers worked out, but the admin director initially said you may have to wait a year.

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