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Messages - bobotheclown

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Canadian Law Students / Re: America to Quebec
« on: April 06, 2007, 11:15:37 AM »
McGill has law students that have done their undergrad in the US.

No, you don't have to take the LSAT, but if yu, they look at it.

Canadian Law Students / Re: addendum to explain CEGEp
« on: August 27, 2006, 10:50:41 AM »
You've got to be kidding if you think they've heard of any of those three Cegeps.

Reads like you should take a second look at the post ...

And incidentally, most apps will ask about your high school. You kinda sorta have to put it there.

Cegep isn't high school.

Like I said, ask a counselor.

Gilles, I was commenting on your comment about schools having heard of Marianopolis.

Canadian Law Students / Re: addendum to explain CEGEp
« on: August 25, 2006, 03:43:12 PM »
You might want to insert a quick sentence in there both about what CEGEP is and about the 7-semester thing. If you're lucky, they will have heard of Marianopolis. I would however wager a considerable sum that they've never heard of Dawson or Vanier.

You've got to be kidding if you think they've heard of any of those three Cegeps.

I'd ask a counselor at McGill who has some experience with people applying to grad school in the States. Honestly, I don't think cegep even merits a spot on your CV.

Canadian Law Students / Re: McGill, GPA's and LSAT
« on: August 21, 2006, 08:58:15 PM »

If you knew anything about me, you'd likely find this remark quite funny.

I don't. But I still got a chuckle.


PS, what's this about Roberto Alomar?

Canadian Law Students / Re: McGill, GPA's and LSAT
« on: August 21, 2006, 04:03:33 PM »
"McGill rides on a decades-old and utterly inexplicable reputation"

That was my impression as well, though I can't really support it.

No one can. The people who go there -- and McGill apologists, of course -- will generally try to rationalize it away, but I have as close as one can come to a controlled experiment: two brothers who went to these two schools one year apart, frequently compared notes, and actually agreed that UT >> McGill and that McGill's rep is ancient.

For whatever reason though, McGill remains, oftentimes, the only Canadian school many Americans have heard of.

Wow, I see you should be teaching research methods.

Canadian Law Students / Re: McGill, GPA's and LSAT
« on: August 21, 2006, 04:02:11 PM »
Still, neither school has any significant wow-factor south of the border. If anything, they have a "huh?" factor.

I tend to agree with you there.

Canadian Law Students / Re: McGill, GPA's and LSAT
« on: August 20, 2006, 08:25:53 PM »
ON THE COMPARISON BETWEEN MCGILL AND U of T (both of which are great schools!):

Despite the fact that U of T has been on top of the MacLean's ratings for a while, I won't be using those, as a letter of intent to boycott those ratings was recently signed by 11 of the Canadian heavyweight universities, and, more importantly, I can't access them online - .

The only two rankings that I'm left with are the following:

1.  The Top-Law-School Rankings, which I think is an amalgamation from a variety of different sources, although I can't be sure (and it must be noted that, from memory, it looks very similar to the last MacLean's ratings):

         1. University of Toronto
         2. University of British Columbia
         3. McGill University
         4. York University
         5. University of Ottawa
         6. University of Manitoba
         7. Dalhousie University
         8. University of Alberta
         9. Queenís University
        10. University of Victoria

2.  The Canadian Lawyer Magazine report card on law institutions in Canada, which surveys 500 recent graduates on their experience.  A different view, I'd say.

   1. Osgoode Hall (York University) B+ (#4, B)
   2. University of Toronto B+ (#2, B)
   3. University of Victoria B+ (#1, B+)
   4. University of Calgary (N/R)
   5. University of Windsor B (#11, B-)
   6. McGill University (N/R)
   7. Dalhousie University B- (#12, B-)
   8. University of New Brunswick B (#3, B)
   9. University of Western Ontario B- (#5, B)
  10. University of Alberta B (#6, B)
  11. Queen's University B- (#8, B)
  12. University of Saskatchewan B- (#7, B)
  13. University of Ottawa B- (#9, B-)
  14. University of Manitoba C+ (#10, B-)
  15. University of British Columbia C+ (#13, C+)

Interestingly enough, these rankings are completely different from the previous one (and the MacLean's one, which, IIRC, is very similar to the TLS ranking, if not completely the same).  A fascinating view from new associates.

In the first case, U of T is on top, two spots ahead of McGill.  In the second, U of T is second, four places ahead of McGill.  After looking into this survey, it would appear that the reason McGill doesn't have an official grade is because there weren't enough responses for accurate comparison, but that its ranking was the result of the responses that the magazine did get.  Here's a link to 2005's survey for more information on the process: .

A link to the magazine:
A link to the 2006 ratings which can't be procured from the magazine without a subscription (yet):

You can find a discussion on the Canadian universities' decision to boycott MacLean's on Leiter's Blog.  Here's an apt and pertinent comment from the Blog (

I am glad to see some action on this question -- a sizeable number of my classmates at the University of Victoria school of law enrolled there because it had garnered first place in the Macleans law school rankings the previous year. The problem with this was that these same students had not considered the political character of the school, nor it's well-known focus on environmental and aboriginal law. They grumbled constantly about the lack of business and corporate-commercial upper year course offerings, and whined openly about the school's "political correctness." Without the Macleans ranking, perhaps they might have researched the school in detail before applying.

There is another Canadian magazine which also ranks law schools -- I believe it's Canadian Lawyer magazine. I heard (from a former dean of UVic Law) that although the methodology is supposedly more sound, it is primarily a ranking by graduates of their particular schools. It seems to me that, unless the interviewees graduated at least five years previous to the survey, the results would be questionable indeed (since law graduates from some schools are viewed more favourably than others, as a matter of expediency on the part of firms). Thus, the more reliable responses would also be the less current ones, and subsequently the value of the entire endeavour seems suspect. Assuming my information is correct.

This italicized comment may be true, but if so, it would indirectly indicate the level of prestige with which certain institutions are regarded -- a strange way of finding out how law firms rank the schools, but a way, nevertheless. 

From these rankings, it would appear that, within a small pool of major candidates, U of T is ranked considerably better, not only by "independent" sources (MacLean's ratings are notoriously "corrupt"), but also by recent graduates and, indirectly, law firms.  While McGill fluctuates in the middle of the upper half of these rankings (much like UMich), U of T stays on top (much like Harvard).

Now, to compare NYU and Harvard.  Here are the statistics for the two schools, taken from the USNews rankings we all love to hate:


3. Harvard - 91 - 4.9 - 4.8 - 3.68-3.92 - 170-176 - 11.5% - 11.0 - 97.1% - 99.5% - 95.9% - 75%
4. NYU     - 86 - 4.6 - 4.5 - 3.60-3.89 - 168-172 - 21.0% - 11.1 - 96.3% - 99.4% - 97.1% - 75%

I don't even know why I'm doing this.  It's irrelevant, as I already stated twice.  The proper analogy is Harvard to mid-range T14.  But let's address this.

As expected, Harvard has more than a "slight" edge in numbers.  While the GPAs are close, the 25th percentile for Harvard is almost a full tenth of a grade point higher.  More importantly, while LSAT scores from the 97 percentile to the 99 percentile make up the 25/75 split at NYU, at Harvard the band is from the 98.2 percentile to the 99.7 percentile.  The Harvard acceptance rate is also much lower, but that's probably just because of the huge number of applications they get.  As expected from elite institutions, the rest of the figures are virtually the same across the board for the T14 (jobs secured and bar passage), except in California where the fiendish bar exam makes the numbers dip a bit.

Most crucial, however, are the peer rankings and the lawyer/judge rankings.  These assessment scores give one an idea how others in the business view the school.  Out of 5, three tenths is a major difference.  In fact, here, the top three schools (which are only "slightly" different) are very similar, whereas there is a remarkable drop down to the fourth position.  Probably why we all know it as "HYS". 

The reason this analogy is irrelevant is because NYU doesn't fluctuate that much in the rankings, either.  It's been pretty steady near the top for a while.  A school that DOES fluctuate, however, is the University of Michigan, which at one time was at #3 (right behind Harvard), went back down to the teens (IIRC), and is now climbing back up to 8. 

Coincidentally, while its GPA and LSAT numbers are a little lower than NYU's, its peer assessment and lawyer/judge assessment scores are identical.  Maybe there is something to be said for your analogy, after all.  But you'd still be incorrect in considering it only a "slight" difference.  The real "slight" difference is between NYU and other mid-T14 schools, as indicated by the USNews rankings.

It would appear that Harvard and NYU are similar, but not in the same echelon.  NYU and UMich, on the other hand, are very similar.  Harvard, according not only to public opinion, but also to its peers and lawyers and judges, is recognizably better than both NYU and UMich.  Just like U of T, according to the rankings that are available, is recognizably better than McGill.

Recognizable in Canada maybe. I'm not so sure about elsewhere. So, like many others have mentioned, if I were to choose between the two schools I'd make my choice based on where I wanted to study (among other factors such as where my family's located, price, friends, etc.)


Canadian Law Students / Re: McGill, GPA's and LSAT
« on: August 20, 2006, 08:16:06 PM »
I canít believe Iím wasting my time with this, BUTÖ

There are degrees of being right, and degrees of being wrong. 

The LSAT proceeds on the first point.  There is a BEST answer, which does not preclude all five answers from being RIGHT.  I'm sure you've written this test, so you'd know what I'm talking about.

By the same standard, answers can be LESS or MORE wrong.  For instance, saying that McGill is located in Ireland is clearly wrong.  Saying that the LSAT is required, however, is only partially correct -- the LSAT IS required, but ONLY IF it was written.  McGill does not require one to write the LSAT for admission, but if one has done it, it MUST be reported.

Semantics my friend. Semantics.

Bottom line, if someone doesnít bother to do full research about such a basic thing as whether the LSAT is required, Iím going to skeptical about what they say about that particular school.

So, you used an exaggerated ad hominem to make me look stupid, and then took issue with my new claim. 

Iím glad you can admit you look stupid.

Name recognition means nothing. 

I hope youíre kidding.

Name recognition means more than one can measure numerically. Aside from geography, and cost of tuition (which usually is moot as schools in certain countries tend to cost the same), recognition is what many people base their choices on. Recognition also affects other areas. 


Canadian Law Students / Re: McGill, GPA's and LSAT
« on: August 20, 2006, 06:19:52 PM »
wow, control urselves bobo and maraudj.
Point of the post was to tell June if he/she had a chance to get into McGill with a low GPA.
Doing well on the LSAT definitely helps you get into McGill.
Acutally I had a friend who I presume had an average GPA, an amazing community service resume but refused to do the LSAT. He got waitlisted last I heard.

As for U of T vs McGill, well I'll really give it serious consideration when I get admitted to both. But for admissions, McGill requires LORs but no LSAT (because of language) while U of T requires LSAT but no LORs (presumably because it is more number base). There, go start a new post about that.

For the most part, I'd have to disagree with you. Sure, it's possible to get into McGill with a low gpa (although I'm not sure how you personally quantify low), but like I mentioned gpa is what they're looking for. The higher the gpa the better, even if it means accepting people with lower lsat scores and a high gpa. A 3.9 and a 157 is better than a 165 and a 3.65 (obviously this isn't an exact science, but purely based on people I know).

MJB, a 161 is nothing special and wouldn't cut it at most T-14 American schools, but McGill has a higher standard when it comes to GPA, so its a little deceiving and thus I wouldn't really sat "its not that hard to get into".


Canadian Law Students / Re: McGill, GPA's and LSAT
« on: August 20, 2006, 03:55:02 PM »
My friend MaraudingJ, where do I begin...

You state that your claim "isn't that erroneous", I didn't realize that there are levels of making a mistake. An error is an error. So lets face it, you're wrong. Does that make everything you say after that ERRONEOUS comment less credible? Absolutely!!!

My analogy is terrible?! Sure thing...yet if you pick up the new US News magazine you'll see that Harvard and NYU law schools are virtually identical in terms of ranking - Harvard has a slight edge. Now lets look at how that relates to McGill and U of T. Similarly, U of T had a slight edge as well, and that's only in recent years. In fact, you'd have many intelligent people that would argue McGill still has a cachet that U of T does not have in the US or elsewhere, such as Europe (which you mentioned youself). In case you're not too familiar with geography and demographics, Europe isn't that small.

Don't kid yourself, U of T is not "like Harvard". Go survey 100 Westerners and ask them where they'd rather attend, Harvard or U of T, and lets see the results, especially considering U of T prices are now comparable to American schools.

You're right about one thing though... I'm thick. But in all the right places.


Listen up, asshat.  If you don't understand the points being made, then don't argue them.  You dawdle off on tangents that indicate you didn't quite grasp what was being said.

1.  There are certainly levels of being erroneous, and denying this already paints a clear picture of how much you're going to struggle as a lawyer, but that's not what I'm here to argue.  The point that you didn't grasp is that, even though I was wrong about McGill requiring the LSAT, I was right in that, if the LSAT has been written, it is required.

2.  A single erroneous claim that is not the premise of an argument does not invalidate that argument, nor does it reduce one's credibility more than marginally.  A lot of what occurs on this board is hearsay.  I admitted my mistake and did some research, as I proved when I made the claim in point 1

3.  Harvard has more than a "slight" edge on NYU, but that's immaterial.  The analogy I made was stronger than that.  It was Harvard versus mid-T14.  U of T has the edge in education quality, student quality, reach, and employment prospects.  And McGill doesn't have better reach to Europe -- it has better name recognition in Europe, a point you didn't grasp.  McGill is more of a high-quality small market school, while U of T is the premier law school in Canada.  Mid-T14 versus Harvard.

4.  If you're usually in the habit of turning analogies into literal comparisons, then there's not much hope for you.  Of all the red herrings you threw out, this is the most puzzling.  I never said U of T is literally the same as Harvard -- if you made this assumption, I suggest you work on your reading skills (which I'm suggesting anyway).  At best, in terms of US schools, U of T would rank in the T10 somewhere.  In fact, one might even say that McGill is to U of T as U of T is to Harvard!  Or are you going to struggle with that one, too?

Bye now, clown.   

I'm always amused when someone uses verbal and personal attacks on an anonymous message board towards an anonymous poster and then figures he or she is going to be taken seriously, especially in light of the fact that theyíve already made factual errors.

1. So there are levels of being erroneous? By all mean, please clarify.
I'd love for you to tell your professor or a client, "well I was wrong, but I was close, so that should count for something." An error is an error. This isnít grade 6 math - there are no points for being close.

2. I only really addressed two points that you made. Point one was that the LSAT is required at McGill. Pont two was that McGill is not on par with U of T. The latter is obviously subjective, so you can't be wrong per se. In any event, to say that "a single erroneous claim" does not "reduce one's credibility more than marginally" is ridiculous. Your error shows you aren't informed about one of the two schools you refer to, a school that bears the subject of this thread. Yet you expect people to take you seriously when you subjectively claim that U of T is leaps and bounds better than McGill. As if.

3. You state that "Harvard has more than a 'slight' edge on NYU". Well, according to several reputable sources and rankings (See US News), the word Ďslightí is fairly accurate. You also claim that "McGill doesn't have better reach to Europe -- it has better name recognition in Europe." Those two seem to go hand in hand, don't you think? A more recognizable name often opens more doors, which is how many people choose schools in the first place. Anyway, my point being is not that McGill is the better school (Iím not saying it isnít either) - my point is that the "Harvard vs. T14" school theory does not hold much weight. Again, I'd say an NYU or Yale vs. Harvard comparison is more appropriate, both top schools in their country.

4. Youíre fooling yourself if you think the gap is that large.


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