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Messages - MichaelNKat

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Current Law Students / Re: Contrasting Temple, Drexel and Villanova
« on: February 11, 2009, 12:42:48 AM »
Some of the ongoing comments about the presumed reasons, purposes, motivation and intent of my original post, which was nothing more than an inquiry about a subject directed to a population reasonably assumed to be in a position to respond with current and insightful information, reflect a continued lack of civility and professional congeniality that has become of increasing concern in the legal profession. You will find, once you are out in the real world, that there is little patience among both the bench and bar for the kinds of attitudes and behaviors reflected by some of the posts here. So as to put an end to further speculation, note as follows:

1. My comments about uh huh's reply 7 were correct. There was a hostile and intentionally rude subtext that I correctly perceived. Uh huh's subsequent comments bear this out.

2. The continued comments about helicopter parenting are presumptuous and ill-informed. The use of a label of convenience as a substitute for sound and substantiated analysis and judgment reflects immature thought. To "set the record straight", my son is engaging in his own investigation and due diligence. My original post made that clear. He and I have a relationship based on mutual respect, among other values. Over the past 5 years, with my encouragement, he has lived independently, attending college while working to pay for his own living expenses and performing as the co-founder of a touring band. He and I engage in a broad range of discussions, including his educational plans, with mutual respect for divergent views where they exist. He has no problem with me engaging in my own independent investigation and due diligence about his law school options. He appreciates that it enables me to bring an added perspective to his decision making process and also agrees that as a financial investor in his education it makes sense for both of us that I do so. He doesn't feel threatened or undermined by this. The fact that some posters on this board object so vociferously to my doing so is reflective of their own limitations as fully developed adults and perhaps of the defects or limitations in their relationships with their own parents. Perhaps they are engaging in what psychiatrists used to call Freudian Projection.

3. To attempt to justify plain old rudeness and hostile judgmental behavior by insinuating that it is the norm for the legal profession and to suggest that what was encountered here pales by comparison, as uh huh does, is ridiculous. It would also be laughable but for the sad commentary about professional civility and collegiality which it reflects. And no, I am not naive or uninformed in this regard nor is my son. I happen to be an attorney and am the managing partner of my firm. Over the past 30 years, I have litigated or argued cases in state and federal trial and appellate courts in multiple jurisdictions as well as a broad variety of state and federal administrative agencies. My son has worked for the last 9 months as a law clerk for a criminal defense attorney with a very active state and federal practice and regularly interfaces with attorneys from the US Attorneys office, DA's office and local and federal defenders associations. To use the vernacular of dashrashi, nobody has much tolerance for a "dickhead" and "dickheaded" behavior is given short shrift by both attorneys and judges.

4. I came to this board at the suggestion of another attorney with whom I was chatting on another educational board that contains forums on a broad variety of undergraduate and graduate educational topics. It was suggested that this board could be a good resource to obtain insight from students currently in or recently graduated from law school. The other board is welcoming of students, parents and professionals all of whom add to the richness of the discussion. dashrashi, your suggestion that somehow the "temerity" of a parent posting here was "inappropriate" is narrow minded to say the least and suggestive of smug, snotty elitism. And in the final analysis, it serves only to chill the involvement of those who could be a valuable resource for young professionals as they weave their way through law school into the real world.

So, in closing, for those who responded substantively to my inquiries, thank you for for your thoughts, insights and perspectives. To uh huh and dasrashi, if I were a doctor, I would suggest that your rudeness and judgmental words and thoughts reflect that you are suffering from an unfortunately common condition often diagnosed as Cranial Rectal Intromission. Oh, and in case any one was wondering, that was rude - and unapologetically so.         

Current Law Students / Re: Contrasting Temple, Drexel and Villanova
« on: February 09, 2009, 09:54:26 PM »
M_Cool - Yep, and just because certain behaviors are frequent on forums doesn't mean they should be accepted. Anonymity is no excuse for a lack of good manners and sometimes when confronted with such, a certain response is warranted. 

Current Law Students / Re: Contrasting Temple, Drexel and Villanova
« on: February 09, 2009, 09:47:14 PM »
To the posters in replies 11 and 12, thank you for your additional thoughts and comments.

Templedude7, I noticed from the time of your post that it appears the class you were in was an evening class. Are you an Evening Division student at Temple? If so (or if you otherwise know), I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts on how the Evening Division contrasts with the day Division. In this regard, my son currently clerks for a criminal defense firm 2-3 days per week and would like to continue to do so if he attends Temple's Evening Division. It is his understanding that the Evening Division is structured for students who work during the day and that while the time demands may be tough, it is not unrealistic to do so. Any thoughts on this?

Current Law Students / Re: Contrasting Temple, Drexel and Villanova
« on: February 09, 2009, 09:31:18 PM »
uh huh, your post 10 again well reflects that you have nothing of substance to contribute to the dialogue in this thread and that my take on your post 7, that you were motivated by your own silly agenda wholly irrelevant to the subject of this thread, was well founded. Your post 10 also demonstrates a certain lack of analytical thinking and a willingness to leap to unsubstantiated conclusions, neither of which will serve you particularly well if in fact you seek a career as an attorney. First of all, you are assuming that my son is not engaging in his own independent due diligence; no competent attorney makes assumptions without knowing the facts. (In this regard, if you read my original post with any real attention to its content, you would have noted that my son's own investigation served as the foundation for my inquiries.) Moreover, if in fact parents are contributing to the financial cost of a graduate school education, then the parents are parties in interest and have standing, if not their own separate and independent fiduciary responsibility, to make their own inquiries. (Perhaps you have encountered the terms "party in interest", "standing" and "fiduciary responsibility" in some of your classes?) In this regard, your post 10 was rather ineptly constructed. While you no doubt sought to snidely denigrate my involvement in my son's law school selection process, you inadvertently suggested a legitimate justification for any such involvement. Good lawyers know better than to pose questions that suggest answers that undermine the purpose and intent of the question.

dashrashi, you thought my response to uh huh's reply #7 was rude? Actually, it was reply #7 that was rude and presumptuous. It not only diverted the thread which I started onto a different subject matter but was an attempt to be obliquely critical of the very existence of my inquiry. And if you think it was a "valid question" for this thread, then you appear to have difficulty identifying issues. It was irrelevant to the issues posed in the original question and on this basis alone was "inappropriate" (your word, not mine). If you think the subject of parental involvement is a subject worthy of discussion, start a thread on it. It is disingenuous, however, to attempt to justify the pollution of a thread that poses legitimate inquiries, particularly where the purpose and intent of the pollution is not to engage in constructive discourse.         

Current Law Students / Re: Contrasting Temple, Drexel and Villanova
« on: February 09, 2009, 01:03:23 PM »
To those who posted replies 1 through 6, thank you for taking the time to respond. You have provided helpful perspectives and information.

As to the poster in reply 7, your curiosity is itself indeed curious and adds nothing of substance to the dialogue in this thread. 

Current Law Students / Contrasting Temple, Drexel and Villanova
« on: February 08, 2009, 08:31:04 AM »
I would be interested in hearing from students who attend or have recently visited any of the above schools, or from others who know the schools well. My son, who wants to attend law school in Philadelphia and thereafter have a criminal defense practice, is fortunate to have a choice between the three. Cost is not a distinguishing factor since he qualifies for in state tuition at Temple and has received merit scholarships at Drexel and Villanova which make their net tuition even less than Temple's.

He has scoured their websites and is pretty familiar with the info contained there. So far, here's how he distinguishes the schools:

Temple- Number 2 ranked Trial Advocacy Program in the country. He would attend the Evening Division which is a 4 year program thereby enabling him to continue to work a couple of days a week as a law clerk for a well established criminal defense attorney for whom he presently works. Clinical placements in the area of criminal law are available to 4th year Evening students. In addition to FT faculty, has many Philadelphia practitioners and judges as adjuncts.

Drexel -Young school, provisional accreditation (but that is not a major concern, the school has the full resources of Drexel behind it and is attracting well credentialed faculty including area judges and practitioners). Major focus on clinical/field work with a 6 month co-op program, required pro bono hours and 4 quarters of courses in Criminal defense Field Work available.

Villanova - Seems to be a very solid program. An emphasis on a "values" based approach to the study of law, many opportunities for clinicals and externships in the area of criminal law. Also appears to have a strong academic support services system for students. In addition to full time faculty, has many Philadelphia practitioners as adjuncts.

So, for those who currently attend these schools, recently attended them or otherwise know them well, what have your experiences been. Going beyond the facade of the websites, what are your thoughts about the reality of the educational experiences, training, opportunities and student life at these schools? Any thoughts on how these schools would serve the needs and desires of someone who wants to do criminal defense trial work and related litigation.

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