Discussion
Resources
1
General Board / Re: Do You Think The Congressional Page Program Should Be Terminated?
« on: October 16, 2006, 09:51:27 AM »
A focus upon youth is characteristic of classical discourse about paiderastia not because it is pederastic but because romantic love and desire always presuppose an age difference, and romantic love for the Greeks was often homosexual rather than heterosexual. All romantic desire, heterosexual as well as homosexual, is presumed to be directed towards the young, and 'most Athenian males married women considerably younger than themselves.' As far as cross-cultural evidence is concerned, many interpreters misleadingly apply the inaccurate term 'intergenerational sex' to relationships that typically entail a difference in age of only a half or a third of a generation. The only valid meaning of a 'generation' is the difference in age between parent and child, i.e. the 'generation gap.'
In historical and anthropological studies it is usually defined with reference to the average age at which a male marries and produces offspring, i.e. the difference in age between a father and his first-born child. A generation thus equals 20-30 years, and in most historical writing it denotes a period of 25 years (i.e. 4 generations per century). But the average difference in age in so-called 'intergenerational' homosexual relationships is usually 7 years, rarely 15 years, scarcely ever a full generation. The classic relationship of institutional military pederasty in Sparta/Crete is between a 12-year-old 'hearer' and a 22-year-old 'inspirer': a gap of 10 years. Heterosexual relationships in ancient and indigenous societies, in contrast, are invariably 'intergenerational' by this standard, in fact usually the age difference between men and women at marriage is significantly greater than between homosexual partners. In the Spartan/Cretan model, the 30-year-old man would marry an 18-year-old woman, a gap of 12 years -- 2 years longer than the gap between 'hearer' and 'inspirer'. Aristotle recommended that men marry at the age of 37 and women at the age of 18 -- proposing 19 years as the ideal intergenerational gap in heterosexual marriages!
On the other hand, to assert that the 'modern' homosexual was invented in the late 19th century, and then go on to say that 'modern' homosexuality is characteristically egalitarian rather than pederastic or transgenerational, is to completely ignore the fact that pederasty was still a major and perhaps even dominant model for homosexual relations at least until the Second World War. The strongly pederastic magazine Der Eigene was published in Germany from 1898 through 1930. Late Victorian and Edwardian homosexual literature is dominated by pederastic themes. Young rough trade is a common feature of homosexuality in England at least through the 1930s. In France Pédérasts were the archetypal homosexual roles through the 1950s. In southern Europe today it is common for there to be significant age differences between partners, and even in France the pédérast is still an important queer cultural paradigm. It really was not until the late 1960s, and specifically in America, that androphilia or egalitarian homosexuality came to be held up as the ideal model for a modern queer democracy, and the pederastic model was characterized as being exploitative.
But early gay liberation collections of poetry, such as Winston Leyland's Angels of the Lyre or Ian Young's "The Male Muse" or Paul Mariah's "Manroot" journal, contain a super-abundance of pederastic verse. Homosexual photographic magazines in London were dominated by the slim adolescent male through most of the 1970s. Chunky rough types were not common until the 1980s, and 'older men' were not common objects of desire until the late 1980s (as long as they wore leather). The view that a 'fundamental transition' has taken place is hardly tenable for the period since 1969, and demonstrably untrue as an indicator of the 'modern' period in general. Those who think that equal-age 'androphilia' rules the day ought to peruse 1990s personal ads and porn videos, a typical title of which is "Just 18"
In the ancient world the ideal beloved was not a 'boy' but an 'ephebe' just below 17 years old; to judge by modern gay literature and videos the 17-year-old boy is still the primary object of desire. Late adolescence is the classical ideal, as in The Greek Anthology (third century): 'I delight in the prime of a boy of 12, but one of 13 is much more desirable. He who is 14 is a still sweeter flower of the Loves, and one who is just beginning his 15th year is yet more delightful. The 16th year is that of the gods, and as for the 17th it is not for me, but for Zeus, to seek it. But if one has a desire for those still older, he no longer plays, but now seeks "And answering him back". The ideal Renaissance ephebe is of course Michelangelo's statue of David, a classic queer icon. Such ephebes feature prominently in the photographs of Bruce Weber and Herbert List – which regularly reappear on the covers of modern studies of gay history and autobiographies.
Age-asymmetrical relationships are surely not a thing of the past. One look at a photograph of Christopher Isherwood with his lover Don Bachardy ought to dispel the notion that 'pederasty' is purely an ancient paradigm. In 1996 Mr. Gay UK was 20 and his lover was 36; he has taken his older spouse's last name, a not uncommon practice. In heterosexual culture May–December relationships are nearly as common today as they used to be in the Middle Ages. Photographs of couples on the 'social pages' of contemporary newspapers and magazines make it obvious that wealthy and important men have wives noticeably younger than themselves. When a successful businessman takes a second wife, she is always the same age as his first wife, though he himself has doubled in age. The higher a man's status in 'high society,' the younger his wife is likely to be (and his mistress is even younger). It was ever thus.
In historical and anthropological studies it is usually defined with reference to the average age at which a male marries and produces offspring, i.e. the difference in age between a father and his first-born child. A generation thus equals 20-30 years, and in most historical writing it denotes a period of 25 years (i.e. 4 generations per century). But the average difference in age in so-called 'intergenerational' homosexual relationships is usually 7 years, rarely 15 years, scarcely ever a full generation. The classic relationship of institutional military pederasty in Sparta/Crete is between a 12-year-old 'hearer' and a 22-year-old 'inspirer': a gap of 10 years. Heterosexual relationships in ancient and indigenous societies, in contrast, are invariably 'intergenerational' by this standard, in fact usually the age difference between men and women at marriage is significantly greater than between homosexual partners. In the Spartan/Cretan model, the 30-year-old man would marry an 18-year-old woman, a gap of 12 years -- 2 years longer than the gap between 'hearer' and 'inspirer'. Aristotle recommended that men marry at the age of 37 and women at the age of 18 -- proposing 19 years as the ideal intergenerational gap in heterosexual marriages!
On the other hand, to assert that the 'modern' homosexual was invented in the late 19th century, and then go on to say that 'modern' homosexuality is characteristically egalitarian rather than pederastic or transgenerational, is to completely ignore the fact that pederasty was still a major and perhaps even dominant model for homosexual relations at least until the Second World War. The strongly pederastic magazine Der Eigene was published in Germany from 1898 through 1930. Late Victorian and Edwardian homosexual literature is dominated by pederastic themes. Young rough trade is a common feature of homosexuality in England at least through the 1930s. In France Pédérasts were the archetypal homosexual roles through the 1950s. In southern Europe today it is common for there to be significant age differences between partners, and even in France the pédérast is still an important queer cultural paradigm. It really was not until the late 1960s, and specifically in America, that androphilia or egalitarian homosexuality came to be held up as the ideal model for a modern queer democracy, and the pederastic model was characterized as being exploitative.
But early gay liberation collections of poetry, such as Winston Leyland's Angels of the Lyre or Ian Young's "The Male Muse" or Paul Mariah's "Manroot" journal, contain a super-abundance of pederastic verse. Homosexual photographic magazines in London were dominated by the slim adolescent male through most of the 1970s. Chunky rough types were not common until the 1980s, and 'older men' were not common objects of desire until the late 1980s (as long as they wore leather). The view that a 'fundamental transition' has taken place is hardly tenable for the period since 1969, and demonstrably untrue as an indicator of the 'modern' period in general. Those who think that equal-age 'androphilia' rules the day ought to peruse 1990s personal ads and porn videos, a typical title of which is "Just 18"
In the ancient world the ideal beloved was not a 'boy' but an 'ephebe' just below 17 years old; to judge by modern gay literature and videos the 17-year-old boy is still the primary object of desire. Late adolescence is the classical ideal, as in The Greek Anthology (third century): 'I delight in the prime of a boy of 12, but one of 13 is much more desirable. He who is 14 is a still sweeter flower of the Loves, and one who is just beginning his 15th year is yet more delightful. The 16th year is that of the gods, and as for the 17th it is not for me, but for Zeus, to seek it. But if one has a desire for those still older, he no longer plays, but now seeks "And answering him back". The ideal Renaissance ephebe is of course Michelangelo's statue of David, a classic queer icon. Such ephebes feature prominently in the photographs of Bruce Weber and Herbert List – which regularly reappear on the covers of modern studies of gay history and autobiographies.
Age-asymmetrical relationships are surely not a thing of the past. One look at a photograph of Christopher Isherwood with his lover Don Bachardy ought to dispel the notion that 'pederasty' is purely an ancient paradigm. In 1996 Mr. Gay UK was 20 and his lover was 36; he has taken his older spouse's last name, a not uncommon practice. In heterosexual culture May–December relationships are nearly as common today as they used to be in the Middle Ages. Photographs of couples on the 'social pages' of contemporary newspapers and magazines make it obvious that wealthy and important men have wives noticeably younger than themselves. When a successful businessman takes a second wife, she is always the same age as his first wife, though he himself has doubled in age. The higher a man's status in 'high society,' the younger his wife is likely to be (and his mistress is even younger). It was ever thus.