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Messages - nycesq2005

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What do you want to know? I graduated more than 5 years ago from Brooklyn Law. Bottom 1/2 class rank. First job paid peanuts (29K pre bar admission, 37K post-bar admission). Now I am doing well but it took several job jumps to get here (I'm at 80K now doing ID and my student loan balance is under $55K).
Any questions, feel free to ask or PM me. I don't really check this board as much, you can find me over at JDUnderground.

God bless.

Job Search / Re: Law Practice in NYC
« on: May 28, 2007, 08:56:18 AM »

Job Search / Re: NYC Jobs
« on: July 12, 2006, 07:20:21 AM »
I am trying to decide where to go to law school and my main concern is employment... so I thought I'd see if any of you could help me. Obviously, since you all are farther down the path to finding a job, you'd know more about this.

I am dead set on working in Manhattan and want to work in a large firm... like the rest of the world, of course. Anyways, I am leaning toward NYLS because of location and a large # of people employed in the city, but am also considering St. John's, Seton Hall, and Rutgers-Newark.

What do you all think about NYLS as compared to these schools, in terms of getting a high-paying job in the city? The most important thing to me is that I work in Manhattan. The second most important thing is that my salary is as high as possible. I already know that Rutgers is better than Seton, but are any of these 3 schools better than NYLS in terms of what I'm looking for???

These are the stats that I have (from Martinadale):
# ppl employed in NYC from...
NYLS--2,389, median salary??? i've heard 95 private, i've also heard 75 and 83
St. John's--2,464, median salary 70 for private
Rutgers--958, median salary 101 for private
Seton--531, median salary 81 for private, also heard 74 and 95 (diff. years)

As you can see, no school takes the pack with both # employed and salary. Any comments would be helpful. Thanks!

Oh my goodness, where to begin. For starters, please PLEASE take the blinders off. Your message already assumes several things:

1. That you can find a job from NYLS that pays 95K and up at graduation (not true, only the top 1010-20% will earn 6 figures, the rest will compete cigorously for jobs paying 40-65K)

2. That theres a difference between Rutgers, S-H, and NYLS (the only schools that place very well with big firms in NYC are NYU and Columbia, with Fordham to a lesser extent - top 30% at Fordham can get into biglaw)

3. That lawyers make a lot of money (some do, but many don't. A NALP study revealed that about less than 15% of lawyers work in large private firms (the easiest way to pull in 140K+ a year out of LS), and the remainder that do make the big bucks, its because they are in business or exploited a profitable niche area of law). The average lawyer is a middle income blue collar worker. Some lawyers I know have never earned more than $100K in their LIFETIME. The average small firm pays about 40-60K to newly admitted attorneys, and even with 5+ years experience, these lawyers top out at around 90K.

4. That the career stats posted by the law schools themselves are accurate. (Newsflash: they are not. The realistic salary is more like 60K for all NYLS grads, same for other area schools of similar quality such as Cardozo-Yeshiva, Brooklyn, St. Johns, Hofstra, Rutgers, Seton Hall, Pace, et al.

I'm sure by now you have read other threads on this board, JdJive ( and There is a plethora of information on these boards that will be helpful as you meander the law school admissions process.

The short answer to your question: if you want to work for a large firm making the big $$, retake the LSAT and shoot for admission to NYU, Columbia or another Top 14 law school because the chances of getting a job from a local NYC area law school are very slim (need to be top of the class).

Incoming 1Ls / Re: Tier 2/3/4 Read This Blog
« on: July 06, 2007, 03:08:04 PM »
dont forget

nycdefensefirms.googlepages.c om

I graduated from BLS several years ago, and can confirm the salaries are on target. As a bottom 1/2er from BLS, the road has NOT been easy. Marianna's messages, however negative and depressing they seem, have a ring of truth to it. The reason the lawyers you talk in real life don't tell these things to your face is because they are ashamed/embarassed to admit it in your face. But deep down, they feel the same as Marianna. Heck, if I were to post my current salary at my job right now - I'd probably get some snickers and comments like "oh come on, you make much more than that!!". Sadly, it is true. Unless you are working for a big firm right out of the gate (which is only about 15-25% of the class get biglaw at OCI) the stark truth is you will be working for these low wages and then compete to move up over the years...the only reason my messages aren't as negative is because my loan debt isn't that bad (55K total including college), and I saved $$ because I lived at home during LS (commuted to BLS). Otherwise, if I knew I came out of BLS with over 100K in loans to face a starting salary of only $45-60K, I'd probably jump off the Empire State Bldg too.

St Johns Law v. Brooklyn Law:

Yes, Bklyn Law edges out SJU only A LITTLE BIT with respect to student quality and overall job opportunities.

However, as a Bklyn alum, I think your best option is St. Johns because of the $$. Financially speaking, Bklyn isn't THAT much better than SJU when it comes to the grand scheme of things. If you want to work for a big firm making 160K, you need to be at least top 10-20% from either school, thats the bottom line.

Secondly, BLS part time is indeed a placebo for the full time. I transferred from PT day to Full Time after my 1st semester. At the time, I had seat deposits at TWO other law schools because my admissions decisions didn't go out until mid-May (some  law schools kept me on hold for 4 months because of a GPA/LSAT split on 2 of my college transcripts). There is very little difference between the Part Time and Full Time divisions. (usually only 1 or 2 classes at most). About a 1/3rd of the Part Time students transfer into Full time their 2nd semester or their 2nd year. The top 10% of the Bklyn Law 1L class usually transfer out (NYU/Columbia, other T10 schools) plus about 3% of the entering class drop out of law school altogether (decide not be lawyers) so that leaves open a bunch of Full Time spots open in 2L. So don't be put off that you were offered a Part Time spot by the Admissions folks. Transferring is pretty easy and standard.

So in the end, if St. John;s would have offered me a 30K scholarship, theres no way I would have picked Bklyn - because the loan debt matters when you come out and start loooking for jobs, and the majority of small firms offer pretty low salaries.

My suggestion: pick SJU, take the $$ and think of the options you will have post-graduation that your classmates who come out with 6 figure debt may not have.


Check your email/inbox. I sent you a private message. I had a similar decision to makem except it was Bklyn v. American (for international law). I chose Bklyn. Feel free to write back with specific q's after you read my message.

Good luck!

I suggest the OP read this thread for additional insight about his decision:

Visits, Admit Days, and Open Houses / Re: New York Law School??
« on: May 28, 2007, 09:48:56 AM »
Well if NYLS is intentionally not including salaries to bump up their median salary, then that's a new level of toilet school fraud.

That's exactly what we are saying. Theres a whole debate right now going on about how BLS reported their median salary is $ 112K. I've been out of Bklyn for a while now and let me tell you - I can count on my FINGERS the number of classmates who making over 100K right now. The ones who are are usually in big firms (which meant they were at least top 25% of their class) or lawyers who started out in small-law and lateralled to mid-law after practicing for 3-5 years.

See: - thats probably an extreme example but I think the statistics put out by USNEWS and the law schools are full of *&^%. I really do, and its sad how so many incoming 1L's see these high numbers and wrongfully assume they will be the ones making those salaries..when only a small minority actually do.

Visits, Admit Days, and Open Houses / Re: New York Law School??
« on: May 28, 2007, 08:48:12 AM »
I'm a practicing attorney in NYC and a Bklyn Law Alum. The guy who posted NYLS is the bottom of the barrel is right on target. The NYC market is just too competitive, and the majority of NYLS grads who work in NYC (which undoubtedly, they do because of proximity) usually work in quasi-legal or non legal jobs, and the ones who do find something in the private sector, its usually a low paying PI/ID firm paying $35-45K/year (see If you are putting down 120K in loans for a NYLS degree for a job paying that much, you would be foolish. Its a stupid investment.

You dont even know your LSAT score yet, so I would sit tight and wait for that official 160+ score. Take a year off. Work as a paralegal. Think long and hard about this decision. Read this board, JDUnderground and the other message boards. Talk to students.Talk to professors. But for the love of God, don't just go to NYLS because its the best school you get into. If you can eek out a few more points on the LSAT, your career options can improve considerably and you might not in the same shoes as the depressed, whiny lawyers from TTT schools over at (formerly JdJive).

Good luck.

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