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Messages - Good Teacher

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Apparently, the ABA has been saying that "lawyers are doctors, too" for 42 years. However, some states disagree, and as the other posters have stated, one must always consider the context (i.e., be careful not to misrepresent your training).

Here's an article published by the ABA Journal on this topic:

http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/article/lawyers_are_doctors_too/

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Reviews, Visits, and Rankings / Re: An idea for U.S. News rankings
« on: July 30, 2009, 05:25:45 PM »
If I thought US News rankings were the only thing could give a school credibility, I would not have gone to UK.  Trust me.  I am an example of someone who chose to take the US News rankings into account, only to disregard them for things that were, to me, higher priorities.  I offered a proposal to IMPROVE the rankings.  You have proceeded to hi-jack my thread and rail against the US News rankings.  Fair enough- have fun.

Don't be such a sore loser Top Cat. On a different note, I've got friend that'll be at UK this fall as well.  Small world huh? 

Good luck with your studies.

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Reviews, Visits, and Rankings / Re: An idea for U.S. News rankings
« on: July 30, 2009, 03:11:53 PM »
First off, no one has berated you.

The U.S. News rankings don't rank lawyers- they rank schools.  Part of ranking a school (maybe the only important part in this economy) is job prospects coming out of the school.  It is absolutely, 100% possible that the number 1 student out of Memphis is more brilliant than the number 1 student out of Yale.  Yet Yale will have much better job opportunities anywhere in the country... therefore, at least in career prospects, Yale still beats Memphis.  Not because the lawyers coming out Yale are better, but because Yale provides a better service (through better career prospects).

There is no way to have a perfect system.  My original idea (which we seem to be drifting away from) was not to perfect the U.S. News rankings.  It was to take the existing U.S. News rankings, keep their current formulas and calculations, and improve on them. 


You’ve just proved my point.  Contrary to Cool Beans, you’ve interpreted the title “Top 100 Law Schools” to indicate job prospects.  That’s NOT what it aims to do (please don’t take my word for it, look it up).  That’s NOT what it does (surely you don’t believe their report is telling you that a #40 school has greater job prospects than a #60 school).  It does include employment rate as one of its 12 indicators but those stats can easily be found on LSAC.org or the school’s site. 

There’s an article written by a Judge Louis Pollak of Pennsylvania titled "Why Trying to Rank Law Schools Numerically Is a Non-Productive Undertaking: An Article on the U.S. News & World Report 2009 List of “The Top 100 Schools."

Here’s the link:
http://www.drexel.edu/law/lawreview/issues/articles_v1_n1/Pollak.pdf

It’s funny but he and I make some very similar points.

I’m just curious, are you looking for some external publication to give your school of choice more credibility than that which is already given by the American Bar Association, your community, and your school’s current alum? 

Also, a few months ago I posted my opinion on what USNWR actually does.  You’re not a newbie here so I’m sure you know how to find it if you’re interested.

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Reviews, Visits, and Rankings / Re: An idea for U.S. News rankings
« on: July 29, 2009, 05:22:33 PM »
Defining best is not too hard actually.  The rankings refer to what schools are expected to produce alums who, on aggregate, will be the most effective lawyers.  In other words, if you were hiring an attorney, which school would you most prefer this lawyer earned his degree at if this was to be your only indication of ability.  Therefore, one could determine that Yale is "better" than Memphis.  Maybe Memphis provides an excellent education in terms of helping its students best reach their potential.  However, I'd still take the Yale student.

Wow!  You responded without berating The Good Teacher?  Thanks for sparing me of more insults.

On a different note… :-\ You've got to be kidding me...that's your definition? 

Well I’ll give you credit for mentioning something about gauging which schools produce the most effective lawyers.  However, this is still vague since there will varying opinions on what it means to be an “effective” lawyer.  For instance, it could refer the number of cases one wins, the position one holds in the judicial system or in business. 

Still I ask, why would you choose Yale over Memphis?  I could assume you have more faith in Yale because of its position in US history or its record of being highly selective but do those things indicate that their alums will be more effective than a Memphis grad?  Frankly Cool Beans, you haven’t provided enough proof to persuade an intelligent lady or gent.

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Reviews, Visits, and Rankings / Re: An idea for U.S. News rankings
« on: July 29, 2009, 03:30:14 PM »
Here we go again...LOL.

Cool Beans, you never defined "better".  As I said before, that's at the heart of our debate.  If you can't put the words together and clarify what you mean by that ubiquitous term I can't even begin to have a conversation with you.  I mean, in football, if a win doesn't decide who's better then what does?

Top Cat, you make a good point.  If we're talking odds, your point wins the argument hands down.  However, I still postulate that it is essential to describe the odds correctly.  For instance, suppose you were in Tunica (I love the South) and a statistician was offering a book on the amount of money people typically win when they bet on black, green, or red in Roulette.  But instead of calling the book by that name he called it "The Best Colors to Bet on in Roulette".  He might base this on the fact that people win more money when the bet on green or red.  Although many might find the book useful, I would hold that the book would mislead many buyers since it only gives stats on the winnings people had after betting on each color, not the likelihood of each color turning a buck or what he really means by best.

It appears that the sports/election analogies I used earlier has distracted you all from the issue I have with USNWR.  Let me make it very clear, I contend that the report should be appropriately titled.  Moreover, if it is impossible to measure what you claim to report (i.e. the top or best law schools), then publishing the report is improvident and perverse since it will only confuse credulous readers.

It’s been fun guys. 

6
Reviews, Visits, and Rankings / Re: An idea for U.S. News rankings
« on: July 29, 2009, 01:25:32 PM »
Hello again Top Cat,

I understand your point; however, I respectfully disagree.

Here’s a funny story.

Three years ago, it was generally accepted that Michigan’s football program (#5 in the nation at the time) was superior to Appalachian State’s.

Southern Cal’s basketball program (#18 in the country at the time) was thought to be better than little ole Mercer.

Giuliani was also supposed to be the best candidate for the Republican presidential ticket.

All these proclamations were based on public perception and supported by someone’s stats…LOL.

Fortunately, all these theories were tested and proven false. 

The moral of the story: Neither public perception nor stats should be relied on to determine ambiguous terms like “best”, “better”, or “Top”. 

Another epiphany:  If they were great indicators, Sports conferences and Election Committees would have abandoned the idea of a contest a long time ago.  What would be the need in letting two square off if all they had to do was refer to a poll or ask “X” number of experts which is best, better, or top?

This has been a good exercise in thought, however I’m done posting on this topic.  I’ve got some “get ready for law school” reading to finish.

Best wishes

The Good Teacher

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Reviews, Visits, and Rankings / Re: An idea for U.S. News rankings
« on: July 29, 2009, 02:19:28 AM »
I'd like to start by saying that you are a brilliant fellow Mr.Pardon Johnny Cash!  Thank you for your insights.

I'd be in favor of it if it is accurately described what it was ranking.  By that I mean it shouldn't be called "Top Law Schools in the ______ Region" if it really was a ranking of the LSAT scores of the entering class.  Such a ranking system should be called "Top Scoring Incoming Classes in the _______".  Also, a system that ranks schools based on public perception (e.g., judges, attorneys, and laymen) should be called "Most Popular Law Schools in the _______".  These are factors that weigh heavily in the current US News ranking matrix.  From my prospective, the US News Rankings debate will persist if they continue to use a system that ranks schools according to indicators that don't reflect the real value of the institution (i.e. the quality of the legal minds it fosters).  One might argue that such a product is intangible and can't be measured. However, any report that claims to have discovered the "Top 100 Law Schools in the Nation" and neglects to assess the instructional environment or the products of that environment is not a credible report. 

Sincerely,

Good Teacher

I'd like to start by saying that you are a brilliant fellow Mr.Pardon Johnny Cash!  Thank you for your insights.

I'd be in favor of it if it is accurately described what it was ranking.  By that I mean it shouldn't be called "Top Law Schools in the ______ Region" if it really was a ranking of the LSAT scores of the entering class.  Such a ranking system should be called "Top Scoring Incoming Classes in the _______".  Also, a system that ranks schools based on public perception (e.g., judges, attorneys, and laymen) should be called "Most Popular Law Schools in the _______".  These are factors that weigh heavily in the current US News ranking matrix.  From my prospective, the US News Rankings debate will persist if they continue to use a system that ranks schools according to indicators that don't reflect the real value of the institution (i.e. the quality of the legal minds it fosters).  One might argue that such a product is intangible and can't be measured. However, any report that claims to have discovered the "Top 100 Law Schools in the Nation" and neglects to assess the instructional environment or the products of that environment is not a credible report. 

Sincerely,

Good Teacher


So Top Teacher, how do you propose that one measures "the quality of the legal minds it fosters".  You also seem to have a problem with reputation scores - equating that to popularity - and with aggregate LSAT scores - equating that to top scoring.  Could it be possible that the reputational scores reflect the legal minds that are produced.  Or maybe that the top scoring students tend to be the legal minds?  Maybe we should get Stephen Breyer to interview every exiting student and allow him to determine the bright minds?  Or maybe make every law school alum take some sort of facebook law iq test?  How do you think that we should improve this ranking system?  No one argues that it's not imperfect and no one argues that there's an error term.  But also, Yale is better than Florida International.  So how would *you* measure this in a way which trumps "popularity" and "top scoring"?  Let's hear it.

eta: and by no means do I love USNWR.  However, I want to know how you would implement your changes.

Hello Cool Beans.

What do you mean by the word “better”?  It seems like a silly question but that is the crux of our debate. 

My theory holds that law schools should be ranked by the “lawyering skills” of its graduates without much regard to many of the other variables used by USNWR (e.g. LSAT scores of the incoming class, popularity).  While high LSAT scorers and notoriety are good indicators that many people have determined that the school is a desirable place to be, it doesn’t guarantee anything in terms of how well graduates understand or apply the law.

I also predict that a Facebook IQ test will miss the mark.

Here’s an epiphany I hope the people at USNWR accept: we’ll probably never be able to determine which law schools are the “best” using any statistical model. Albeit, we can determine a lot of other things using stats such as the Top Scoring Incoming Class.  Moreover, since USNWR can’t actually produce what they claim (i.e. a list of the Top 100 Law Schools) they should stop misleading people with their pseudo science shenanigans and find a more appropriate title for their report.

Best regards,

Good Teacher

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Reviews, Visits, and Rankings / Re: An idea for U.S. News rankings
« on: July 28, 2009, 08:33:16 PM »
I'd like to start by saying that you are a brilliant fellow Mr.Pardon Johnny Cash!  Thank you for your insights.

I'd be in favor of it if it is accurately described what it was ranking.  By that I mean it shouldn't be called "Top Law Schools in the ______ Region" if it really was a ranking of the LSAT scores of the entering class.  Such a ranking system should be called "Top Scoring Incoming Classes in the _______".  Also, a system that ranks schools based on public perception (e.g., judges, attorneys, and laymen) should be called "Most Popular Law Schools in the _______".  These are factors that weigh heavily in the current US News ranking matrix.  From my prospective, the US News Rankings debate will persist if they continue to use a system that ranks schools according to indicators that don't reflect the real value of the institution (i.e. the quality of the legal minds it fosters).  One might argue that such a product is intangible and can't be measured. However, any report that claims to have discovered the "Top 100 Law Schools in the Nation" and neglects to assess the instructional environment or the products of that environment is not a credible report. 

Sincerely,

Good Teacher

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Reviews, Visits, and Rankings / THE BEST NEWS OF THE SUMMER...
« on: July 27, 2009, 04:25:30 PM »
Michael Vick got reinstated!

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Minority Topics / Re: Do Black People hate Koreans??
« on: June 09, 2009, 12:47:12 AM »
Is it just an assumption or do black people IN GENERAL hate koreans?? 
I ask this because I remember that there was a LA riot when Rodney King was beaten by the White police, and the Black people attacked all the korean grocery markets and destroyed everything.  My parents always told me that it was indeed initiated by Koreans since Koreans made majority of their money off of African-Americans, yet still showed no respect and acted as if they were the upper class compared to the Blacks.

I also remember when Ice Cube made a rap song dissing Koreans, and some other notable hating words by others about Koreans.  Is this true?? 

I'm not trying to start s**t, I'm just really really curious since this doesn't seem to be the case in Canada.(I'm korean btw) 


I don't speak for all the members of the African Diaspora and neither does Ice Cube (he spewed a lot of hate music back in the mid-90s when he apparently became part of the Nation of Islam...however; I think he's matured since then).  Please don't assume that all blacks harbor hate for any group of people.  In regards to Korean immigrants, I think many blacks have come to admire the thriving business presence Koreans hold in black communities throughout America.

Also, it's pretty safe to say that people (black, white, brown, etc) like or dislike individuals and not entire ethnic groups.  Therefore, if you're having problems with blacks personally, consider your own disposition, personality, or behaviors.  A warm smile and compliment will win over just about anyone. :-)

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