Law School Discussion

Livinglegend, I was able to pay for half of the tuition at my ABA.  I go part-time evening, work full-time and I am finishing up my second year.  Right now my debt is pretty good, but Obama has cut all subsidized loans for graduate students this year.  Also, the tuition goes up every year and I want to quit my job at some point to focus on internships.  I've met with the legal department of my current employer about an intership this summer, and do not want to be working full-time, which is where the expense will add up.  Since I've spent all I had saved for school, I will have to rely mainly on loans over the next two years.

The minimum LSAT score required for the CBE's in my area is 145 for one and 143 for the other.  I believe Cooley is also 143, but it also appears Cooley gets more criticism than online schools.   

If the job that is waiting for me when I graduate doesn't work out, I plan on being a solo practitioner anyway unless I get lucky elsewhere.  I already have a good network of attorneys because of where I work and spoke with a judge who ironically assumed I was at a CBA - maybe because I work fulltime?  The discussion of the high cost of tuition with ABA schools is ongoing in my area.

I am a bit worried that the quality of education may not be as rigorous since bar pass rates don't lie.  And, as maintain said, even my lower tier school criteria for admissions is higher than CBE.  However, it also true that if you don't hunker down and study you won't pass no matter which school you attend.  Anyway, I'm still weighing the pros and cons.  I'm just someone who really hates having debt unless it's a mortgage.  I'm going to ask some of the other attorneys their opinions of CBE's before making my final decision.   Thanks for the input.

Thank you both for your input!  I had figured that individual drive may have a bit more to do with passing the bar.  It makes sense that a lower admissions criteria would have a direct correlation to bar pass rates.  If one doesn't have the drive to hunker down and study for the LSAT, then they are less likely to pass the bar exam.  I am leaning more and more towards CBE for the fall.  Since I've already completed two years at an ABA, I don't think the quality of education will be any different, but my debt will be far less.   

Statistics on the last bar exam in Jun 2012 state the passage rate percentage for CA Accredited was 31% for first time takers, repeaters 10% and all takers 19%.  For all takers in the unaccredited category - 15%, not much difference between CA Accredited and the Unaccredited and the repeaters for unaccredited was 12% HIGHER than the accredited 10%.  Feb 2012 - first time takers - same percentage 33% in both categories.  I don't know seems to me the CA ABA pass rate not anything to boast about either at 68% and 53% on the same respective tests.  Tightening standards will mean what? No more distance learning or correspondence schools?  We shall see.

If you look at other years, the numbers do fluctuate quite a bit. 

I've been doing a lot of research into this because I am seriously considering transferring to a CBE.  The cost of ABA is just getting to be ridiculous even for those with some scholarships.  The massive amount of debt and the fact that there are no more subsidized loans from the government is making CBE appear to be a better choice.  However, it may be wise for the CBE schools to require a bit stricter admissions requirement.  When I went to visit the school I'm interested in, only one of the six prospective students had a bachelor's degree and none of them had taken the LSAT yet.  Some had the required 60 hours of college, but for the most part, they hadn't fully committed to going to law school, which was the complete opposite of the prospective students at the ABA open houses I attended.  Most had already applied with a decent LSAT score and, of course, a bachelor's degree.  And while someone should certainly do their research before making the commitment to go to law school, it just seemed odd that none of them had even attempted the LSAT before visiting the school. 

As far as online school bar pass rates being similar to CBE, the online schools weed out students who may not pass the bar because of the FYLSE.  http://admissions.calbar.ca.gov/Portals/4/documents/fyx/FylsxStatsOct2011.pdf 
Since only about 20% of online students pass the First Year Exam, the remaining number of students moving on to 2L is much smaller.  Cal bar students are not required to take the FYLSE, which could explain the lower bar pass rates. 

What concerns me the most is that the number of repeaters taking the bar exam is significantly higher than the first-time takers for both CBE and online schools compared to ABA, which has a significantly lower number of repeaters.   Trinity law school had 55 repeaters compared to 19 first timers, and UWLA had 60 repeaters compared to 10 first timers.  Abraham Lincoln and Concord had similar numbers.

http://admissions.calbar.ca.gov/Portals/4/documents/gbx/JULY2012STATS.122112_R.pdf

So even though some of the ABA school's bar pass rates may not seem impressive, they are doing something right.  The bigger question is, is it worth the money you save if you end up having to take the bar three or four times?  Or is passing the bar largely based upon the individual?  I would love to hear feedback from those of you who have taken the bar exam.   

As a dean of a CBE law school (Monterey College of Law), I can confirm that what makes California accredited law school programs different is that we are scaled in size and cost to more closely meet the needs of the local community. Our law degree costs about $65K . . . not $150K. As a part-time evening program, our students are encouraged to start working in law-related jobs during law school, not only reducing the need for student loans, but in most cases providing the opportunity to get actual experience in different practice areas (and law firms) to identify a preferred area of practice after graduation. In some ways, our format is much closer to the medical school practicum model than the typical ABA program. I think that you will also find that the bar pass rates for good students at CBE schools is competitive with the unranked ABA law schools.

Actually, my biggest concern are the bar pass rates for CBE schools.  After doing some research, it appears Monterey does a bit better than those in the Los Angeles area.  Do you think that bar pass sucess rates are largely due to the individual or the school they attend?  Or do you think the CBE schools do not fair quite as well because students are not required to have a bachelor's degree or have higher LSAT scores as ABA schools?  Would like to get your opinion on that.

I'm finishing my 2L as a part-time evening while working full-time and will probably quit my job before 3L so I can focus on internships, etc.  At my school classes are three nights per week so I generally put in some study time for one subject on the non-school night, do Contracts on Saturday and Torts Sunday etc. while leaving my Firday nights free for fun.  Many part-timers actually manage their time a bit better since there is so little of it, but be aware it will be all-consuming your first year and you need to be sure you don't burn out.  Being disciplined and sticking to your schedule will definitely keep you on track.  I hope that helps!