Your right I DON'T understand the issue. As I said "I don't really see your point".
In your initial statement you claimed that any given woman would be upset to be married without a ring at a court house and that to a male, having your wife take your name is the symbolic equivalent of a fancy wedding for a woman. This sort of statement really does nothing to support the idea that it is either right or wrong for a man to expect his wife to change her name. All you are saying is that "things like changing names and fancy ceremonies ARE important to people".
You are counting on the fact that all women want diamonds and fancy weddings to prove your point.
You final statement about how if "hypothetically" I did want a diamond, in principle, my husband should give it to me because in healthy relationships couples care about how their loved one feels. This misses the issue entirely because the issue is how do we deal with a situation where two people who are about to get married get into a dispute where one wants one thing and the other wants the opposite. The principle that "you should give your fiance what they want" simply cannot be applied if both people want opposite things. The question becomes which person will give way. Why ought the woman give way in this instance? Why do you assume that the woman cares less about keeping her maiden name than the man cares about the woman taking his name?
Um..I don't really see your point. Tons of people get married and not everyone has rings or ceremonies. Take me for example, I kept my maiden name when I was married but I also never got a diamond engagement ring and I did not have a wedding with a fancy dress and a string quartet.
The ceremony of marriage doesn't interest me particularly. I understand that some women are into those things but there are women out there who would trade the traditional trappings of marriage just to keep their maiden name. Plus I don't really see your point because "traditionally" the brides family is supposed to pay for the wedding, all the man has to pay for is the engagement ring and engagement rings can be cheap or super expensive depending on HIS taste. So the bride loses her name and puts her family in debt to pay for the wedding and you are talking about symbolism and unity. It seems to me that "traditionally" men are the greater beneficiaries of marriage so stop complaining about what men have to sacrifice for marriage and respect women enough to see that we are not just silly romantic fools but rational creatures capable of sound financial and emotional judgement.
That would hurt! The way I see it, there is not an objective correlation between happiness within a marriage and spouse name change. However, the name change symbolizes unity and togetherness which is obviously an issue in the event it doesn't happen. Just to illustrate my point - how would you feel if he expected you to marry him, but didn't give you a ring or a nice wedding ceremony? What if he wanted to skip the ring altogether? What if his idea of a nice wedding was to take you in his car down to the court building and marry you, then afterwards, take you to an all you can eat buffet then drop you off at home before going to work? You'd probably feel like crap because of what those things actually sybolize. On a broader scale, people rarely admit the importance of appearance and how things look to friends, family, and colleagues.
I'd probably react by explaining how important the name thing is. If I had to beg, I wouldn't want to move forward because begging is not cool. If I had to beg about this, then there is no telling what else i'd have to beg for. Just my thoughts. Be good
You don't see the real issue here. You'd only understand my point if you could somehow understand that somethings are important to a potential spouse and when these things are disregarded by the fiance, it hurts. So, hypothetically speaking, what if a diamond ring and a fancy dress with a quartet string was important to YOU? If you didn't get those things, you'd be disappointed and therefore hurt. Furthermore, it's irrelevant to mention whether or not the groom or the bride is financially responsible for the wedding. (doesn't really matter who pays the bill) If the bride expects it and doesn't get it, she will be a bridezilla! Period.More importantly in this issue, is its IMORTANCE to either person. Obviously, if two people could care less about the jewelry, then it is not an issue - but thats not what we are talking about. Were talking about a situation in which one person values something and deems it important for the relationship, but the other does not.
You've said: "You are counting on the fact that all women want diamonds and fancy weddings to prove your point."
My response: This is inaccurate. I merely used the example as a hypo to prove the point that when expectations are not met, it hurts. (admittedly, i've assumed that THIS hypo would be a good illustration because in my neighborhood, most girls like diamonds and weddings. Go figure!
You also state: "It seems to me that "traditionally" men are the greater beneficiaries of marriage so stop complaining about what men have to sacrifice for marriage and respect women enough to see that we are not just silly romantic fools but rational creatures capable of sound financial and emotional judgement".
My response: Who said this? I never complained about what men have to sacrifice and never implied that women are silly romantic fools that are incapable of sound financial and emotional judgment. This statement in itself is quite emotional.....
You say: The principle that "you should give your fiance what they want" simply cannot be applied if both people want opposite things. The question becomes which person will give way. Why ought the woman give way in this instance? Why do you assume that the woman cares less about keeping her maiden name than the man cares about the woman taking his name?
My response: good point. In all honesty, no matter who gives way, someone will not get what they expect.
I can't let you off the hook that easy so I have a few questions. You mentioned that you did not get a ring and did not have a ceremeony, obviously, because you did not expect these things. Was there anything that you expected from the marriage? If so, what were the things that you expected?