Law School Discussion

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Messages - spraydood

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I have to say that his "Challenge to T2 Students" thread was particularly infuriating because, superficially, he would appear to be right.  We can't show him advertisements for high-paying jobs for T2s.  That's because NOBODY could show those advertisements, because they don't exist, because THAT'S NOT HOW LEGAL HIRING WORKS IN PRACTICE.  Legal hiring either proceeds through generic on-campus hiring which almost never states salary expectations, or (far more often) through networking and recommendation. 

I do not know what you are talking about. Legal jobs are advertised all over the place. This includes good jobs which pay well and have strict hiring requirements, as well as the crappy jobs open to tier 2 students. On campus recruiting serves perhaps 15% of students at tier 2 schools. Recommendations are only given to those in the top of the class. Similarly, networking only works for the top of the class. You can't network your way past your class rank. A firm which can get students from good schools is not going to lower their standards because they met you in person.

Pretty ironic that you're accusing others of lying, when your inability to distinguish the truth from a lie borders on psychosis. And fix your LSN profile link.

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Wait List / Re: Southwestern
« on: May 22, 2008, 03:05:18 PM »
So how much money are you going to borrow for SW? What sort of salary are you expecting to make?

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1) No matter what you say, you never bothered to network. I know people that are median and already have jobs lined up working at DAs offices and small firms. You really have no excuse. In fact, it's down right pathetic to be several years out and still unable to put together a legal career.

2) You are out of touch. Look on lawschoolnumbers.com and tell me how all of the people with 'substantial scholarships' will fit into the top 10-15%. The fact is that the school is giving out more money than ever, thus preventing many of its graduates from having sizeable debt.

3) Your first post (and several subsequent ones) were around 5 PM on a weekday. Rather than trolling message boards and complaining (including xoxo, where you spend your time creating threads with titles along the lines of 'remember: bls lies about career stats'), why don't you network & find a job? I doubt you exploit any of the school's resources. If you don't have a legal job, why aren't you asking to attend the Dean's roundtable luncheons, where practicioners come to lecture about their successful careers? That'd be a great place to network. Oh yeah- I know why you don't- b/c it is easier to complain than be proactive.

I really have no tolerance for people that are unwilling to take responsibility for their own lives. The fact is that this school provides plenty of opportunities. You just have to take advantage of them.

I don't know anything about Brooklyn. On the one hand they definitely place people in NY biglaw. On the other hand a lot of their graduates complain about them. On the one hand they advertise a $112,000 median starting salary. On the other hand some people allege this is pure fraud.

I guess I can't argue with anything in your post. You're not claiming BLS grads are guaranteed six figures, just that they can get a DA or small firm job with some effort. I think the problem is people go into Brooklyn expecting a $112,000 salary, and then when reality doesn't match their expectations, they feel ripped off. Can you really blame someone for expecting to make the advertised median starting salary? I think you would be equally justified blaming Brooklyn for misleading applicants.

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The simple fact of the matter is at any given school there are going to be successful graduates and unsuccessful graduates. Law attracts a lot of people, many donít give much thought to what the practice of the law actually entails. They forget itís a service industry, one that is closer to sales than to what they see TV lawyers doing. Clients run the show, without clients you donít get paid, huge law firm or solo practice.

Successful lawyers are those that are not only good at the law, but at selling themselves and making rain. Not everyone who wants be a lawyer is that kind of person. But the people who are that kind of person understand the majority of legal opportunities are not advertised or come from OCI, just like most clients wonít just walk into your door and hand you over money. You have to market yourself. The ďgoodĒ law students understand this and do it in law school, by networking, by creating opportunities for themselves that others donít know about. They will find jobs even in a down market. The less successful law stunts rely on the school to get them a job, the firm to find them clients and their boss to tell them what to do.  They will have a harder time finding jobs the lower down the rank their school is. This is the students fault, not the schools, other people in that school will be sucessful but most won't becuase they don't put in the effort.

The type of law student who understands how the game is played and starts playing it in law school will be successful, T14 or T4. There are just much fewer of those type A people out there. The majority of law students will turn into marginal lawyers. All going to a top 14 school does is allow more of them to get their first high paying job, it does not mean they are good at it or can keep it. There is a 80% turnover rate in big law (See Above the law or American lawyer Magazine) a good percentage of this is because many people just donít have what it takes (regardless of school) to be good at the profession.

Its less a problem of too many schools, or lower ranked school or anything to do with schools and more a problem with too many people trying to be lawyers who just donít really have what it takes to be good at the profession. The best will rise to the top, be they from T2 or T4, the majority, like the majority of people in life, will end up being mediocre be they top 14 grads or T4 grads.

If you really want to do something about the sad state of law jobs, try and convince people to do more investigating of what the profession actually does, what it takes to be good at it and what skills you need to be successful  rather than just looking at US news and assume for someone unknown reason your actually going to be one of the few people out there that really is a good lawyer. Law school will only do what itys supposed to do, teach you the law enough to pass the bar, skills you need to be a good lawyer, to be the sucessful grad over the unemployed grad you need to teach yourself. Those that do that come out on top, those that don't blame the school for not handing them a job. 


I'm sorry I need to comment on this.

Edit: Actually you don't.

post edited by EC

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