Law School Discussion

Applying to Law School => Law School Admissions => Topic started by: $Bill on November 21, 2007, 10:39:16 PM

Title: When does a "reach" become a "waste of time and money"
Post by: $Bill on November 21, 2007, 10:39:16 PM
Due to the fact that I wait trembling for mail and email daily, I spend a lot of time crunching numbers on the [admittedly skewed] LSN charts and lists, as well as the LSAC LSAT UGPA calculator.  Some schools that I definately wouldn't mind going to (Cardozo, Brooklyn, Case Western, Tulane and others) seem to be just outside my numbers.  However...I really am pretty stingy.  What do you all do to determine whether or not you want to apply to a reach school?  Am I lacking confidence, or just being a realist?  What is a reach really?
Title: Re: When does a "reach" become a "waste of time and money"
Post by: studymaster on November 21, 2007, 11:42:51 PM
Well if you want my opinion (and even if you don't) it becomes a waste when:

total cost of applying > total benefit from acceptance x probability of acceptance

so 12$ + application fee if you paid it + (time spent on application X value of your time)
is > chances of acceptance (as a decimal) x [difference in salary expectation from school you woudl go to wihtout admittance here and salary expectation from this university x # of years you plan to work + any additional benefits such as prestige ]

Now do you really care that much?
Title: Re: When does a "reach" become a "waste of time and money"
Post by: . . . . . . on November 21, 2007, 11:52:12 PM
I felt like most of my apps were a waste of time, but I feel like if one school accepts me, then it will all have been worth it.
Title: Re: When does a "reach" become a "waste of time and money"
Post by: MHLM on November 22, 2007, 05:11:39 AM
I don't think applying to any school you'd legitimately like to attend is a waste of time or money. That said, you know generally what each school expects in the way of LSAT score and GPA so you might find it a waste to apply to a school where you probably have <5% chance of admission. Personally, since I have been admitted to my "safety" school already--one I wouldn't mind attending--I see no point in spending money on "realistic" schools. I will apply to a few more reaches, because why not? I might always wonder what would have been...
Title: Re: When does a "reach" become a "waste of time and money"
Post by: UnbiasedObserver on November 22, 2007, 06:48:57 AM
I don't think applying to any school you'd legitimately like to attend is a waste of time or money. That said, you know generally what each school expects in the way of LSAT score and GPA so you might find it a waste to apply to a school where you probably have <5% chance of admission. Personally, since I have been admitted to my "safety" school already--one I wouldn't mind attending--I see no point in spending money on "realistic" schools. I will apply to a few more reaches, because why not? I might always wonder what would have been...

Yes, wondering what might have been stinks.  That's why I was application-happy this cycle. (I applied to 22 schools where I would consider attending.)
Title: Re: When does a "reach" become a "waste of time and money"
Post by: gclemen1 on November 22, 2007, 06:52:26 AM
you know the saying for the lottery: "you can't win it unless your'e in it"?  Well its kinda like that for law schools applications!
Title: Re: When does a "reach" become a "waste of time and money"
Post by: iLukeisamazing on November 22, 2007, 07:04:11 AM
Here's a better statistical calculator of school chances, it's in-depth and gives you a lot to look at:

www.lsatreport.com

The 1 school I've been accepted to so far, it gave me a 50/100 on my "range."
Title: Re: When does a "reach" become a "waste of time and money"
Post by: UnbiasedObserver on November 22, 2007, 07:24:55 AM
you know the saying for the lottery: "you can't win it unless your'e in it"?  Well its kinda like that for law schools applications!

No doubt!
Title: Re: When does a "reach" become a "waste of time and money"
Post by: El_Che on November 22, 2007, 09:11:34 AM
I've often wondered just how accurate lsatreport.com numbers are. Do we have any idea if one site is any more accurate than another between lsatreport, lsn, the official lsac guide, or any others?
Title: Re: When does a "reach" become a "waste of time and money"
Post by: KidA23 on November 22, 2007, 09:12:23 AM
Addressing this thread topic, I consider it a reach a waste of time and my 87 dollars (assuming 12 for the LSDAS report and 75 for the application) when both my measurables (LSAT and GPA) are at or below the 25% mark. Being a white dude, this just sort of screams to me "look buddy, it's not happening." For example, I'm a 168/3.64 guy and didn't bother with HYS or CCN. As a white male, that's just a total waste of my time and money, IMHO.
Title: Re: When does a "reach" become a "waste of time and money"
Post by: iLukeisamazing on November 22, 2007, 10:16:51 AM
I've often wondered just how accurate lsatreport.com numbers are. Do we have any idea if one site is any more accurate than another between lsatreport, lsn, the official lsac guide, or any others?

I think LSAT report is the best calculator besides LSN.  That said, I think you should take the percent chance calculated, and assume that you have an exponentially better chance the higher your score is (i.e. if you are given a 25% chance, I'd assume something like 30%, with 80%, I'd assume about 95%).  This is assuming accurate data, and the data from the law schools is a year or two off.

Oh yea, it's not very close to "accurate," but it's better simply trying to figure out index numbers and it's much better than Chiashu, which is just awful! The "best" way to figure it out is finding a chart on LSAC that gives the exact number of applicants and acceptances from the past year's class. After that is LSN, which is useful for the "bigger" schools because you get a greater number of participants and the numbers show better because of this. After that, LSATreport... then tarot cards, then a Ouija board, then Chiashu.
Title: Re: When does a "reach" become a "waste of time and money"
Post by: iLukeisamazing on November 22, 2007, 11:03:35 AM
tarot cards & ouija board?  Links?

Honestly? I respect your opinion, so please tell me you're kidding!
Title: Re: When does a "reach" become a "waste of time and money"
Post by: billymahogany on November 22, 2007, 11:43:35 AM
Here's a better statistical calculator of school chances, it's in-depth and gives you a lot to look at:

www.lsatreport.com

The 1 school I've been accepted to so far, it gave me a 50/100 on my "range."

I used this to weed out the presumptive dings from my application list. 
Title: Re: When does a "reach" become a "waste of time and money"
Post by: iLukeisamazing on November 22, 2007, 12:02:25 PM
Here's a better statistical calculator of school chances, it's in-depth and gives you a lot to look at:

www.lsatreport.com

The 1 school I've been accepted to so far, it gave me a 50/100 on my "range."

I used this to weed out the presumptive dings from my application list. 

You're the reason I started using it!

*tear*

You COMPLETE me!
Title: Re: When does a "reach" become a "waste of time and money"
Post by: rsr28 on November 22, 2007, 12:15:18 PM
LSN is the best because you can make it do whatever you want.

(at least for math dorks like me...)
Title: Re: When does a "reach" become a "waste of time and money"
Post by: iLukeisamazing on November 22, 2007, 12:39:16 PM
tarot cards & ouija board?  Links?

Honestly? I respect your opinion, so please tell me you're kidding!

I was attempting to imitate a certain HLS hopeful on this board.

That's exactly where I thought you were going, I'm glad that that's what it was.
Title: Re: When does a "reach" become a "waste of time and money"
Post by: El_Che on November 22, 2007, 06:30:04 PM
Here's a better statistical calculator of school chances, it's in-depth and gives you a lot to look at:

www.lsatreport.com

The 1 school I've been accepted to so far, it gave me a 50/100 on my "range."

I used this to weed out the presumptive dings from my application list. 

How did you calculate which ones would be certain dings? 25/100 and lower?
Title: Re: When does a "reach" become a "waste of time and money"
Post by: El_Che on November 22, 2007, 06:31:16 PM
I've often wondered just how accurate lsatreport.com numbers are. Do we have any idea if one site is any more accurate than another between lsatreport, lsn, the official lsac guide, or any others?

I think LSAT report is the best calculator besides LSN.  That said, I think you should take the percent chance calculated, and assume that you have an exponentially better chance the higher your score is (i.e. if you are given a 25% chance, I'd assume something like 30%, with 80%, I'd assume about 95%).  This is assuming accurate data, and the data from the law schools is a year or two off.

The "best" way to figure it out is finding a chart on LSAC that gives the exact number of applicants and acceptances from the past year's class.

Do you mean the section under ABA-approved school on the LSAC site where you can get pdf's with admissions info?
Title: Re: When does a "reach" become a "waste of time and money"
Post by: iLukeisamazing on November 22, 2007, 07:07:58 PM
I've often wondered just how accurate lsatreport.com numbers are. Do we have any idea if one site is any more accurate than another between lsatreport, lsn, the official lsac guide, or any others?

I think LSAT report is the best calculator besides LSN.  That said, I think you should take the percent chance calculated, and assume that you have an exponentially better chance the higher your score is (i.e. if you are given a 25% chance, I'd assume something like 30%, with 80%, I'd assume about 95%).  This is assuming accurate data, and the data from the law schools is a year or two off.

The "best" way to figure it out is finding a chart on LSAC that gives the exact number of applicants and acceptances from the past year's class.

Do you mean the section under ABA-approved school on the LSAC site where you can get pdf's with admissions info?

Yup.  That's what I've felt is the most helpful.  Some law schools don't provide this info though...

Exactly. About half of my schools have these numbers available. So far, this has been good to me, and predicted my first decision really well.
Title: Re: When does a "reach" become a "waste of time and money"
Post by: El_Che on November 22, 2007, 08:01:28 PM
I've often wondered just how accurate lsatreport.com numbers are. Do we have any idea if one site is any more accurate than another between lsatreport, lsn, the official lsac guide, or any others?

I think LSAT report is the best calculator besides LSN.  That said, I think you should take the percent chance calculated, and assume that you have an exponentially better chance the higher your score is (i.e. if you are given a 25% chance, I'd assume something like 30%, with 80%, I'd assume about 95%).  This is assuming accurate data, and the data from the law schools is a year or two off.

The "best" way to figure it out is finding a chart on LSAC that gives the exact number of applicants and acceptances from the past year's class.

Do you mean the section under ABA-approved school on the LSAC site where you can get pdf's with admissions info?

Yup.  That's what I've felt is the most helpful.  Some law schools don't provide this info though...

Exactly. About half of my schools have these numbers available. So far, this has been good to me, and predicted my first decision really well.

Excellent, I will take a closer look at those lsac pdf's. Should give me another thing to obsess over until I get some decisions :)
Title: Re: When does a "reach" become a "waste of time and money"
Post by: billymahogany on November 22, 2007, 10:29:43 PM
Here's a better statistical calculator of school chances, it's in-depth and gives you a lot to look at:

www.lsatreport.com

The 1 school I've been accepted to so far, it gave me a 50/100 on my "range."

I used this to weed out the presumptive dings from my application list. 

How did you calculate which ones would be certain dings? 25/100 and lower?

Any schools at which you are "below range" are probably dings.  0-50 are good targets and 51-100 are presumptive admits and "above range" are safeties. 
Title: Re: When does a "reach" become a "waste of time and money"
Post by: iLukeisamazing on November 23, 2007, 06:13:01 AM
Here's a better statistical calculator of school chances, it's in-depth and gives you a lot to look at:

www.lsatreport.com

The 1 school I've been accepted to so far, it gave me a 50/100 on my "range."

I used this to weed out the presumptive dings from my application list. 

How did you calculate which ones would be certain dings? 25/100 and lower?

Any schools at which you are "below range" are probably dings.  0-50 are good targets and 51-100 are presumptive admits and "above range" are safeties. 

Good call! What about those that are in the 1-25 range? Are those semi-reaches? I'm a 24 at UF and a 26 at UGA, which is odd.
Title: Re: When does a "reach" become a "waste of time and money"
Post by: billymahogany on November 23, 2007, 08:02:45 AM
Here's a better statistical calculator of school chances, it's in-depth and gives you a lot to look at:

www.lsatreport.com

The 1 school I've been accepted to so far, it gave me a 50/100 on my "range."

I used this to weed out the presumptive dings from my application list. 

How did you calculate which ones would be certain dings? 25/100 and lower?

Any schools at which you are "below range" are probably dings.  0-50 are good targets and 51-100 are presumptive admits and "above range" are safeties. 

Good call! What about those that are in the 1-25 range? Are those semi-reaches? I'm a 24 at UF and a 26 at UGA, which is odd.

"0" represents a candidate who is at the 25th percentile for both LSAT and GPA.  So, anything over that seems like a good target, and 1-25 are probably "target-reaches".
Title: Re: When does a "reach" become a "waste of time and money"
Post by: iLukeisamazing on November 23, 2007, 08:16:19 AM
Thanks Willy! Seems like a really good site, I like it!
Title: Re: When does a "reach" become a "waste of time and money"
Post by: I am Penny Lane on November 25, 2007, 08:52:15 AM
Some schools that I definately wouldn't mind going to (Cardozo, Brooklyn, Case Western, Tulane and others) seem to be just outside my numbers. 

I think you'll have a good responce with Case Western, and I don't think Brooklyn and Cardozo are long shots if you apply PT.

 Cardozo PT  (http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/search_schools.php?action=search&school_code=2990&lsat1=157&lsat2=159&fee_waiver=0&status=0&gpa_lsdas1=3.3&gpa_lsdas2=&attending=0&cycle=4&gpa_degree1=&gpa_degree2=&withdrawn=0&program=2&index1=&index2=&state=0&application_type=0&scholarship1=&scholarship2=&sex=0&keep_visible=1&multiple_lsat=0&urm=0&x=46&y=13&international=0)

 Brooklyn PT  (http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/search_schools.php?action=search&school_code=2047&lsat1=157&lsat2=159&fee_waiver=0&status=0&gpa_lsdas1=3.3&gpa_lsdas2=&attending=0&cycle=4&gpa_degree1=&gpa_degree2=&withdrawn=0&program=2&index1=&index2=&state=0&application_type=0&scholarship1=&scholarship2=&sex=0&keep_visible=1&multiple_lsat=0&urm=0&x=28&y=11&international=0)

 Case Western  (http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/search_schools.php?action=search&school_code=0005&lsat1=157&lsat2=159&fee_waiver=0&status=0&gpa_lsdas1=3.3&gpa_lsdas2=&attending=0&cycle=4&gpa_degree1=&gpa_degree2=&withdrawn=0&program=1&index1=&index2=&state=0&application_type=0&scholarship1=&scholarship2=&sex=0&keep_visible=1&multiple_lsat=0&urm=0&x=27&y=0&international=0)

Title: Re: When does a "reach" become a "waste of time and money"
Post by: . . . . . . on November 25, 2007, 10:26:21 AM
A reach becomes a waste of money when you are deciding between eating that night or applying to the school.
Title: Re: When does a "reach" become a "waste of time and money"
Post by: upwithmontana on November 25, 2007, 03:46:55 PM
A reach becomes a waste of money when you are deciding between eating that night or applying to the school.

TITCR.

LOL.  I don't know; I'd skip a couple meals to get into Stanford :)
Title: Re: When does a "reach" become a "waste of time and money"
Post by: JMFM2011 on November 25, 2007, 05:50:28 PM
A reach becomes a waste of money when you are deciding between eating that night or applying to the school.

TITCR.

LOL.  I don't know; I'd skip a couple meals to get into Stanford :)

I'd not only skip the meals, but I would take them away from other people as well.  I mean, not starving children or anything, but I'd empty my stoner neighbors' fridge if I thought my chances would be improved.  Hell, I might just do that anyway for kicks.  ;D