Law School Discussion

Applying to Law School => Law School Admissions => Topic started by: PublicServiceAnnouncement on October 09, 2007, 12:21:32 AM

Title: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: PublicServiceAnnouncement on October 09, 2007, 12:21:32 AM
This is a public service announcement.  Do not go to law school.  Scratch it off your list.  The reason I am posting here is because high school students are really the right age to get this message across to.

Here's a little background about me.  I was always one of the smartest kids in my high school and did all the things I needed to do to get into law school.  I got a 161 on my LSAT which is the top 14% of test-takers.  It isn't an earth-shattering score, but it is definately respectable.  I got into a state school that was first tier when I applied to it but has since slipped out of the top.  I really thought that I wanted to be a lawyer to make courtroom arguments and because the profession would be a great career that would be financially rewarding.  So, I got your typical liberal arts degree from my big state school and went to law school right after college.  I was full of ideals. 

However, the realities of the legal profession will beat all of your ideals out of you by the time law school is over.  After three years of incurring debt and wanting to finally get a house and start a family or at least be able to impress potential girlfriends, you will want a job that PAYS.  Unfortunately, there are so many law schools it's ridiculous.  For every job that you apply to, there will be over 100 people competing for the same slot.  And, there aren't that many jobs out there now to begin with.  It is a really tight market and it will be 1,000 times worse by the time the current crop of high school kids get their JD's.  No matter how good you are, it will be impossible to distinguish yourself from the competition.  You will keep compromising your goals until you just want a job to pay the bills and get something close to the lifestyle you envisioned when you started law school.       

You might think "well, I'll just study hard and beat out the competition."  Wrong.  Law schools curve their grades which means that only 5 out of 90 people in a class can get an A.  It doesn't matter if 40% of the class wrote brilliant essays that were each A quality work.  Your work will be arbitrarily differentiated so that 5 people get As, 5 people get Ds, and 80 people get between a B plus and C minus.  That is really hard to take when you were the smartest person everywhere you went before law school and your grades do not reflect the work you put into studying.  Oh yeah, and you will be competing with at least one retired neurosurgeon who got bored with brain surgery, drives a lexus, and decided to go to law school for kicks.  Additionally, many law firms and big companies are outsourcing legal work to India where the "attorneys" are not licensed and they make 7 to 16K a year.  The profession is no longer respected.  It's just a business that is affected by the same bean counting crap that affects all businesses.   

After getting through law school, you will have to take the bar which is only offered twice a year and it takes them 5 months to grade that mo-fo.  I fortunately aced the bar in my first try, but it is still an incredibly stressful time where you are looking for attorney work without actually knowing if you will be an attorney. 

As a second year attorney, some of my friends who went to business school in undergrad are making much more money than me and they've been working longer.  I would advise not to go to law school but just go to business school in undergrad.  Law school is a complete waste of your time.  Work after college, find something you enjoy that can be lucrative, and then possibly go to some other grad school if you feel it can actually increase your earning potential or if your employer will pay for it.   

You should only go to law school if you get into a true ivy league law school where employment is guaranteed, or if you scored incredibly high on your LSAT (170+) and can guarantee that you will be in the top 5 to 10 percent of your class because you are a prodigy.  Then, you must be willing to work like a female dog (not my original term, but was edited by the web site) to earn your $160k a year starting salary (70 hour work weeks).

I wish someone had told me this when I was a high school senior.  My life would be totally different.             
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: bliwo on October 09, 2007, 12:32:56 AM
This is really ridiculous.  Don't worry about the above post.  Lots of people enjoy law school and find good jobs afterward.  And then as with anything, some people are miserable, as with the person above.  But don't think the above poster speaks for anyone else.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: beni on October 09, 2007, 12:36:44 AM
...and then there are those of us who want to do something personally meaningful instead of just seeing big dollar signs at the end of the tunnel.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: PublicServiceAnnouncement on October 09, 2007, 12:56:26 AM
It's really not that ridiculous.  Virtually everyone not yet in law school or in their 1st year wants to do "something meaningful" to help people when they become a lawyer.  I know I did.  Law school beats that out of you.  Most of my friends are not happy with their jobs as attorneys.  There are exceptions, but the majority don't like what they do everyday and just see it as a paycheck.  I remember I rolled my eyes during one of my 1L professor's presentation on why lawyers become alcoholics at a substantially higher rate than other professions.  Now I understand.  I personally don't drink much but I can understand why the profession churns out so many alkies and divorces. 

Most attorneys will tell you not to go to law school unless it is truly what you want to do.  I know I didn't pay that any attention when I heard it myself, but I would really impress upon high school students to not rely on going to law school.  Have a back-up plan.  Fully explore your career options in undergrad.  Don't get a degree in liberal arts that practically forces you to go to law school to increase your earning potential.       


 
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: Nimmy on October 09, 2007, 01:24:59 AM
The best advice in here is do not get a liberal arts degree.  Get a hard science degree, or a math degree, or a business degree, or an engineering degree.  Seriously.  You have options with those.  You know what I did with my History and Political Science degree from the best College in my state for a year before going to law school?  I delivered pizzas.  Seriously.

If you then decide to go to law school, do so in a way that you incur little debt, and do so only after you have explored the other options your BA/BS provides.  Likely you can make just as much as an attorney out of undergrad with one of the degrees I named above and you are just wasting 3 years of salary plus tuition and living expenses.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: AkhilAmar on October 10, 2007, 10:59:39 AM
The best advice in here is do not get a liberal arts degree.  Get a hard science degree, or a math degree, or a business degree, or an engineering degree.  Seriously.  You have options with those.  You know what I did with my History and Political Science degree from the best College in my state for a year before going to law school?  I delivered pizzas.  Seriously.

If you then decide to go to law school, do so in a way that you incur little debt, and do so only after you have explored the other options your BA/BS provides.  Likely you can make just as much as an attorney out of undergrad with one of the degrees I named above and you are just wasting 3 years of salary plus tuition and living expenses.

I also know people who graduated with a B.A. and ended up working jobs that require zero education (e.g. a guy w/ a history degree from a top 30 public university who worked as a janitor after graduation).

But remember this: a degree is only what YOU make of it. Personally, I would never settle for a pizza joint job after graduation; I would go to the far reaches of the Earth to find a better job if necessary. Don't expect to sit on your degree and expect magical things to happen. A B.A. is like a 1960's high school diploma, they are literally a dime a dozen. Now more than ever before it is about what you decide to do post-graduation and not what opportunities your degree bestows upon you.

I agree with the OP. The vast majority of schools outside the Top 50 are what insiders call MoneyLaw Schools, meaning they are there to make money - that's all. MoneyLaw Schools know that morons who get a 150 on the LSAT but "wanted to be a lawyer ever since I was little" will do anything to go to law school. Hence, the reason why sh*thole law schools can get away with charging 30k a year in tuition w/ horrible and/or nonexistent career prospects.

Here's the bottom line: If you are extremely interested in law and are intelligent and can get into a Top 30 (or so) law school, go for it. But to the majority of you, unless given a very large scholarship, stay away from law school because you might be using your J.D. to manage a KFC. As I said above, a degree is what you make of it, but, in the context of professional jobs, in today's over-saturated legal market that is more fiction than fact.   
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: $Bill on October 16, 2007, 05:56:22 AM
It's really not that ridiculous.  Virtually everyone not yet in law school or in their 1st year wants to do "something meaningful" to help people when they become a lawyer. 

 

And here I was looking at divorce clinics...
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: Dizzle on November 09, 2007, 02:56:40 PM
Fist yourself.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: Bob Vance, Vance Refrigeration on November 09, 2007, 03:41:24 PM
ha ha, i love miserable people.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: . . . . . . on November 09, 2007, 03:49:53 PM
thanks, I'm withdrawing all my apps now
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: cs_rudy on November 09, 2007, 11:16:51 PM
"Here's a little background about me.  I was always one of the smartest kids in my high school and did all the things I needed to do to get into law school.  I got a 161 on my LSAT which is the top 14% of test-takers."

This is when I stopped reading.

You generalize that I should not go to law school from the fact that you have not met with great success. Why should I care? Your experiences are not analogous to mine and your goals are obviously very different, so why should I decide not to do anything because of your shortfalls.

It sucks that law school didn't live up to your expectations, but to claim that no one should go to law school on that basis is utterly ridiculous.

Let me illustrate with a hypo:

Say I went to law school three years ago, graduated at the top of my class, and am now working at a prestigious law firm in a big city and making beau-coup bucks. I have managed to invest my money well and I've paid off my loans and drive a nice sports car and live in a condo-with-a-view downtown. I am quickly becoming one of the most respected Mid-Level associates and am on track to make partner in the next few years.

Would you go to law school on the basis of the information above? I hope not. Just as I hope no one who reads your post decides not to go to law school because YOU had a bad experience.


Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: JeNeSaisLaw on November 15, 2007, 09:57:04 PM
"Here's a little background about me.  I was always one of the smartest kids in my high school and did all the things I needed to do to get into law school.  I got a 161 on my LSAT which is the top 14% of test-takers."

i stopped reading because 161 is quite low.  any high school students in here, don't worry: there's a significant chance you will score much higher than this kid and get into a much better school.

What planet are you on? 161 is not "quite low" and there is not a "significant chance" that any person will score higher than the 8Xth percentile. I wish you had a LSN so I could keep track of where not to go.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: JeNeSaisLaw on November 15, 2007, 10:16:57 PM
Do you understand what it means to score better than 84% of test takers? Do you understand who is taking this test? Everybody (well, I can't say everybody, but probably so close it doesn't matter) is college educated and for the most part a different kind of student than less than average quality college student across the country. To score above 84% of that population is a damn impressive thing. To argue otherwise is horrifying.

So, yeah, it will not get you seriously considered at the top 14 without some unbelievable soft factors, but that does not mean it is not impressive. Don't confuse the idea that some people are making financially irresponsible decisions with their law school choices with the idea that a score is not impressive.

You are a fool for thinking that it anybody can score above the 84% and even more foolish for thinking that there is a significant chance that anybody will.

You really frustrate me.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: Pop Up Video on November 15, 2007, 10:59:20 PM
Everybody (well, I can't say everybody, but probably so close it doesn't matter) is college educated and for the most part a different kind of student than less than average quality college student across the country. To score above 84% of that population is a damn impressive thing. To argue otherwise is horrifying.

A lot of worthless liberal arts majors with dead-end sales jobs who see law school as the last chance before they descend into TTT-dom take the LSAT.  Unfortunately, many of them descend even further into TTT-dom then they already are due to not completely failing it... like the OP.

Finishing better than 84% of this population is not all that impressive.

Oh, and if getting over a 170 makes me a prodigy, I have a bridge to sell you...

Hey, I'm not a liberal arts major, but I'm close, and as such, I take offense.  >:(
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: Bob Vance, Vance Refrigeration on November 15, 2007, 11:14:53 PM
I can't believe you are asserting that being in the 85th percentile is not impressive.  This is one of the most pretentious, illogical things I have ever heard.  Out of every 20 people, you are 3rd best.  Wow, that sucks actually, you should not be proud of yourself at all.  And the whole fact that people can go up to that point that easily makes it EVEN MORE impressive to ACTUALLY achieve it.  IF so many people are accruing the tools to be in the 85th percentile, and someone has to win out, how much more impressive is it to be this person?  On LSD we are constantly surrounded with people who are applying to T-14 schools; this is so far from being representative of reality.  Your argument, is flawed, elitist, and unnecessarily patronizing to people in the 85th percentile who should be extremely proud of their accomplishments.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: JeNeSaisLaw on November 16, 2007, 09:34:30 AM
PBJ please stop being irresponsible.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: RokoMotion on November 30, 2007, 06:41:50 AM
It's funny...I always thought life is what we make of it.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: EatYourVeggies on November 30, 2007, 06:52:30 AM
I think we can all agree that there are a lot of stupid people walking around with bachelor's degrees.  The testing pool may be a little better than the "average" American, but the "average American" should make us all sad. 
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: vap on November 30, 2007, 06:52:58 AM
PBJ please stop being irresponsible.
he stays up all night memorizing Federal Rules of Civil Procedure but doesn't understand what's going on in the exam.

 :D This from the 0L reading a hornbook.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: bridget_jones on November 30, 2007, 06:54:29 AM
I agree with Biglulz. It seems like some of the people on this board get an ego boost out of coming on and making remarks to discourage anyone who doesn't have T14 aspirations. To say that a 161 is not law school material is absolutely ridiculous. I know many attorneys who went to regional schools (some tier 3) and they are very happy and love their jobs. A 161, paired with a good GPA, could get you a nice scholarship at some schools, so to say that you'll accrue a huge amount of debt is not necessarily the case. Anyway, the bottom line is that anyone who seriously wants to pursue law should try and do so because you don't have to do Biglaw to be successful.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: EatYourVeggies on November 30, 2007, 07:00:14 AM
I think his point was that he wanted to go to BigLaw, but couldn't and was suggesting that there's a good chance that you too will change your mind, want to go to BigLaw from a lower-tiered school and won't have the option available.  It's a fair criticism, but worthy of a "Don't go to law school!"

Go to the best law school you can and between similarly-situated law schools, minimize your debt.  Also, have a job before graduating and you won't have to worry as much for five months while you wait for bar results.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: EatYourVeggies on November 30, 2007, 07:38:44 AM
I don't "sincerely want to be a lawyer".  I sincerely want to make lots of money.  I don't think I should be warned against law school any more than the person who saw "To Kill a Mockingbird" and can't sleep at night for all the anticipation of law school.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: EatYourVeggies on November 30, 2007, 07:49:47 AM
I wouldn't go to law school if I couldn't get into a top school because that defeats the whole "money-making" idea...

I'm already in law school though.  So this one was pure "argument's sake". 
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: General2010 on November 30, 2007, 07:52:52 AM
I think it is a generally accepted truth that many people who go to law school do so simply because they see it as a way to earn a respectable graduate degree, and not because they sincerely want to be lawyers.  This bunch--which is usually considered to be a large demographic in the LS population--are the people who should be warned against law school.

From another direction, unless you are in the very small minority that wants to go to law school because your lifelong dream is to become a lawyer, law school should be viewed as an investment.  Great numbers of students matriculate at law school without this conception, and learn, after they take on great amounts of debt, that they have a very small chance of getting a biglaw job (which might have been the reason they attended law school in the first place, many of them) and that the investment they've made is unwise.

So, insofar as a lot of folks attend law school burdened by illusions about the profession, the career prospects, and its nature as an investment, yes, people should be admonished to carefully consider the decision to attend law school.

I've got no beef with a 161.  But if being a lawyer is just an option you're considering--not a dream or a personal goal--and if your goal in becoming a lawyer is to make biglaw money, a 161 is problematic.  Since these two conditions describe many--probably most--law school students, the criticism is applicable.

A 161 isn't as problematic as you think. I go to school with many 2L transfers who scored between 153-160, went to 4th tier schools, worked their asses off and transferred here. Many of them have secured BigLaw Summer Associate positions for this summer (for my friends, NYC, DC, Baltimore, Houston and San Diego).

Additionally, a 161 will get you a good scholarship at a 40-80th ranked school. I would describe a lot of these schools as "Good for their market" schools. As much as I've bashed it on this site, SMU is ranked 46th I believe, has a median LSAT around 161, and does great for Dallas. Don't believe me? Look at the "Big 3" law firm websites in Dallas (Fulbright & Jaworski, Baker Botts, Vinson and Elkins) and look for how many SMU Law Grads there are there. Look at University of Richmond, which I believe is ranked 75th. If you want to go outside of Virginia, good luck, but they are very respected in the Richmond BigLaw firms (McGuire Woods, Hunton and Williams, Troutman Sanders). So, if you get a 161, get a good scholarship and know you want to practice in a certain market, I certainly wouldn't describe this as "problematic."
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: EatYourVeggies on November 30, 2007, 07:53:04 AM
"I think it is a generally accepted truth that many people who go to law school do so simply because they see it as a way to earn a respectable graduate degree, and not because they sincerely want to be lawyers.  This bunch--which is usually considered to be a large demographic in the LS population--are the people who should be warned against law school."

That's what I was referring to.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: General2010 on November 30, 2007, 08:00:28 AM
I think it is a generally accepted truth that many people who go to law school do so simply because they see it as a way to earn a respectable graduate degree, and not because they sincerely want to be lawyers.  This bunch--which is usually considered to be a large demographic in the LS population--are the people who should be warned against law school.

From another direction, unless you are in the very small minority that wants to go to law school because your lifelong dream is to become a lawyer, law school should be viewed as an investment.  Great numbers of students matriculate at law school without this conception, and learn, after they take on great amounts of debt, that they have a very small chance of getting a biglaw job (which might have been the reason they attended law school in the first place, many of them) and that the investment they've made is unwise.

So, insofar as a lot of folks attend law school burdened by illusions about the profession, the career prospects, and its nature as an investment, yes, people should be admonished to carefully consider the decision to attend law school.

I've got no beef with a 161.  But if being a lawyer is just an option you're considering--not a dream or a personal goal--and if your goal in becoming a lawyer is to make biglaw money, a 161 is problematic.  Since these two conditions describe many--probably most--law school students, the criticism is applicable.

A 161 isn't as problematic as you think. I go to school with many 2L transfers who scored between 153-160, went to 4th tier schools, worked their asses off and transferred here. Many of them have secured BigLaw Summer Associate positions for this summer (for my friends, NYC, DC, Baltimore, Houston and San Diego).

Additionally, a 161 will get you a good scholarship at a 40-80th ranked school. I would describe a lot of these schools as "Good for their market" schools. As much as I've bashed it on this site, SMU is ranked 46th I believe, has a median LSAT around 161, and does great for Dallas. Don't believe me? Look at the "Big 3" law firm websites in Dallas (Fulbright & Jaworski, Baker Botts, Vinson and Elkins) and look for how many SMU Law Grads there are there. Look at University of Richmond, which I believe is ranked 75th. If you want to go outside of Virginia, good luck, but they are very respected in the Richmond BigLaw firms (McGuire Woods, Hunton and Williams, Troutman Sanders). So, if you get a 161, get a good scholarship and know you want to practice in a certain market, I certainly wouldn't describe this as "problematic."

Well I'm not gonna argue with this guy.  Point stands, though, that you've got to know why you're going to law school.  Some guy off the street who thinks 161 is a golden ticket is not necessarily correct, although he may have different goals for his JD.


But seriously, what do I know?  I just spend too much time on the internet.  Am embarrassed that G2010 has found me in my one obnoxious argument thread.

I agree with the bolded text.

That's what happens when you out yourself.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: General2010 on November 30, 2007, 11:09:05 AM
Don't mean to harp on this, but it doesn't even need to be Top 40 to be a good regional school. South Texas College of Law is a 4th tier in Houston and they have a lot of alums in the Houston BigLaw offices (I checked the firms' websites because I'm creepy like that).
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: Julie Fern on December 04, 2007, 08:49:19 AM
Fist yourself.

you fist.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: General2010 on December 04, 2007, 01:32:19 PM
243 million Americans beg to differ.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: vap on December 04, 2007, 01:41:56 PM
yeah, but most of those people will have to work their tails off to get to NYC, which is where everyone wants to be.

Can we get any worse than PBJ?
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: rotaryroadster on March 07, 2008, 10:55:05 AM
Well, its been a long time since I was in High School in the UK. I'm moving to the USA to study law with the very real expectation of being self employed afterwards. I fully intend to move into patent, bankruptcy, real estate law and work towards setting up my own practice to this end.

I'm 26, left my University with a BA in business n Marketing. No job prospects but by that time University/school was more of a hobby since I'd been flipping properties all academic years since I was 18. I've gained some great life experience and business skills but ultimately I feel I haven't pushed myself hard enough intellectually.

I can't call myself typical by any means but I don't want to work my arse off and slave away at a prestigious school/practice to get a vaunted title and punishing work schedule just to make "partner" (just like the other 100 or so already in the firm).

Rant over..

My point was that not everyone will be going to school for the same jobs. Some of us on here might actually make a few for others!

Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: perezr8 on July 02, 2009, 11:04:01 AM
This guy ia an a-hole. Being a lawyer is just like any other job. Your going to have to network and work your way to the top. You could get a job as a municipal public defender just to get you feet wet. You only get paid 40,000-50,000 a year with that but you could also have private clients on the side.

Who ever that person is was obviously looking to have a 160k job fresh out of school. He really doesn't give a rats ass about helping people.

As a Lawyer you are a self contractor. You are the product you sell. Im not taking about selling you self to firms. You have to sell your self to clients. If not you'll never be retained and never make any money.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: squireJons on December 07, 2009, 04:18:58 AM
the original poster is correct. Law is a hopelessly overcrowded field. I say this as a lawyer, one who barely makes a living at it.

Most law school grads have to get out of the legal profession entirely because they cannot make a living at it.

the statistics on jobs and salaries are inflated and faked by the law schools and the NALP.

Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: musicgrl on December 31, 2010, 08:01:15 PM
Wow, way to be  a dream crusher. I'm really not going to take your advice because nothing can stop me from what I want to do.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: Squirrelballs on January 02, 2011, 10:27:44 AM
It's true law school is a bottomed-out, dying profession. This is a fact REGARDLESS of where one goes to school. All this talk of "second tier beats third tier" like playing rock, paper scissors is STUPID. If you want to rake up a $100K in debt to PRAY to make $45K a year, then law school is your friend. I went to law school (fourth tier) and have finally, through penny-pinching, paid my $100K debt down to about $50K. And that's while making a $53K a year salary. It burns me to know I still owe as much as I do. I am 33. There is another lawyer in my office who makes the same amount as I do, went to a "first tier" school vs my "fourth tier" school. She even commented "look where it got me." Exactly. She went to a way "better" law school, plus she has a master's from Harvard, and all it got her was twice the debt at the same age as me. She still owes about $100K. I would rather owe my debt than hers and keep my crappy fourth tier degree. Being that much closer to getting out of this financial moneypit disaster is way more valuable than having a "better" degree.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: the white rabbit on January 02, 2011, 12:23:44 PM
It's true law school is a bottomed-out, dying profession. This is a fact REGARDLESS of where one goes to school. All this talk of "second tier beats third tier" like playing rock, paper scissors is STUPID. If you want to rake up a $100K in debt to PRAY to make $45K a year, then law school is your friend. I went to law school (fourth tier) and have finally, through penny-pinching, paid my $100K debt down to about $50K. And that's while making a $53K a year salary. It burns me to know I still owe as much as I do. I am 33. There is another lawyer in my office who makes the same amount as I do, went to a "first tier" school vs my "fourth tier" school. She even commented "look where it got me." Exactly. She went to a way "better" law school, plus she has a master's from Harvard, and all it got her was twice the debt at the same age as me. She still owes about $100K. I would rather owe my debt than hers and keep my crappy fourth tier degree. Being that much closer to getting out of this financial moneypit disaster is way more valuable than having a "better" degree.

Not to nitpick, but your criticisms here are not about the legal profession or law school, but about the massive amount of debt that usually accompanies a law degree.  (I am not suggesting, by the way, that I disagree that that's a pretty big problem.)

Sorry it's been so tough for you to dig your way out of the hole.  Hope your prospects are brightening.  :)
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: MEMEMEME on January 02, 2011, 02:18:44 PM
Stop whining. It is better than living in a third world country and working your ass off to only starve.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: Hamilton on January 02, 2011, 03:52:40 PM
Unsustainable debt seems to be a running theme wherever one looks these days...

Stop whining. It is better than living in a third world country and working your ass off to only starve.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: sashlxi on February 23, 2011, 08:40:00 AM
Law school is not worth the 100K+ debt you will incur and the 30K job prospects you will have later.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMvARy0lBLE


http://thirdtierreality.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: lawstudent2011 on February 23, 2011, 09:08:26 AM
Even T4 Grads with a 2.05 graduating GPA start out at around $50K, PLUS the Govt has it as income based payback now(if you F'up and make less than $20K the payment is ZERO each month, PLUS after 25 years it's AUTOMATICLY expunged debt!)

So, if you'd prefer to cry and see clothes at the mall, go for it. Just STFU on the way out,  :-X :'(

Law school is not worth the 100K+ debt you will incur and the 30K job prospects you will have later.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMvARy0lBLE


http://thirdtierreality.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: jack24 on February 23, 2011, 10:27:06 AM
Where are you getting your information?  Are you graduating law school in 2011 or staring law school in 2011?
Either way you are straight up wrong.

There are plenty of law jobs out there for 35-45k a year.  The public sector jobs that pay around 55,000 have hundreds of applicants from strong schools.

Your claims about the income based payback are screwed up too.  Even if you do get the opportunity to defer more of your payments, your loans will still accrue interest, and if you ever do start making good money you will have to pay large payments.   


Here is the information on income based repayment  http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/students/english/IBRPlan.jsp
it's a good option for those who are in trouble, but very few people should go to law school with plans to utilize this program. 

Even T4 Grads with a 2.05 graduating GPA start out at around $50K, PLUS the Govt has it as income based payback now(if you F'up and make less than $20K the payment is ZERO each month, PLUS after 25 years it's AUTOMATICLY expunged debt!)

So, if you'd prefer to cry and see clothes at the mall, go for it. Just STFU on the way out,  :-X :'(

Law school is not worth the 100K+ debt you will incur and the 30K job prospects you will have later.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMvARy0lBLE


http://thirdtierreality.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: lawstudent2011 on February 23, 2011, 01:54:18 PM
No *&^% they don't "plan" to use it, since they don't "plan" to make that little to begin with. BUT if they do,then it's there.
Plus the interest at that point might as well be imaginary since it's forgiven and disapears into thin air at the end of the clock for them anyways.

If you make too much to use the program, then you don't need to bitchabout low income. If you do qualify, then you don't need to bitchabout high repayment. Other way it's fine.

Lawstudents and lawyers just want to keep people out to lower the competition. Stop trying to keep some teen from going to school and just do a better job and you'll be fine. Just don't suck.  :-X :P

Where are you getting your information?  Are you graduating law school in 2011 or staring law school in 2011?
Either way you are straight up wrong.

There are plenty of law jobs out there for 35-45k a year.  The public sector jobs that pay around 55,000 have hundreds of applicants from strong schools.

Your claims about the income based payback are screwed up too.  Even if you do get the opportunity to defer more of your payments, your loans will still accrue interest, and if you ever do start making good money you will have to pay large payments.   


Here is the information on income based repayment  http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/students/english/IBRPlan.jsp
it's a good option for those who are in trouble, but very few people should go to law school with plans to utilize this program. 

Even T4 Grads with a 2.05 graduating GPA start out at around $50K, PLUS the Govt has it as income based payback now(if you F'up and make less than $20K the payment is ZERO each month, PLUS after 25 years it's AUTOMATICLY expunged debt!)

So, if you'd prefer to cry and see clothes at the mall, go for it. Just STFU on the way out,  :-X :'(

Law school is not worth the 100K+ debt you will incur and the 30K job prospects you will have later.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMvARy0lBLE


http://thirdtierreality.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: Hamilton on February 23, 2011, 05:21:53 PM
Who are you trying to convince, readers or yourself?  If you truly believe this you are in for a VERY hard lesson in life's realities.

Even T4 Grads with a 2.05 graduating GPA start out at around $50K, PLUS the Govt has it as income based payback now(if you F'up and make less than $20K the payment is ZERO each month, PLUS after 25 years it's AUTOMATICLY expunged debt!)
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: the white rabbit on February 23, 2011, 07:07:51 PM
Lawstudents and lawyers just want to keep people out to lower the competition.

Conveniently, this assumption allows you to keep doing what you wanted to do in the first place.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: lawstudent2011 on February 23, 2011, 07:42:02 PM
Holy bunnies, a lawstudent wanting to graduate lawschool and be a lawyer?!?!?! DEAR GOD!!!!!!!! ::)

Just because a fish wants to swim dosn't change the fact that the water is still wet either.  :-X

Some people just want to cry no matter what. :'( Don't let me stop you there superstar.  :'(

Lawstudents and lawyers just want to keep people out to lower the competition.

Conveniently, this assumption allows you to keep doing what you wanted to do in the first place.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: the white rabbit on February 23, 2011, 10:10:05 PM
Holy bunnies, a lawstudent wanting to graduate lawschool and be a lawyer?!?!?! DEAR GOD!!!!!!!! ::)

Just because a fish wants to swim dosn't change the fact that the water is still wet either.  :-X

Some people just want to cry no matter what. :'( Don't let me stop you there superstar.  :'(

Lawstudents and lawyers just want to keep people out to lower the competition.

Conveniently, this assumption allows you to keep doing what you wanted to do in the first place.

I'm glad that at least we don't disagree that you're just making an assumption.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: lawstudent2011 on February 23, 2011, 11:02:21 PM
How the hell do you figure that?

[/quote]

I'm glad that at least we don't disagree that you're just making an assumption.
[/quote]
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: jack24 on February 24, 2011, 05:59:39 AM
My point is that on the income based loan repayment plan, most people will end up paying all of their loans back because they won't always be stuck at a low income for 25 years.  It gives people the opportunity to ease into the payments, but it's not an enviable situation.

If you have 120k in debt and two kids, you will have to pay about 275 bucks a month under the plan if you make 55,000 a year.  If you are stuck at 55,000 for the next 25 years then you will only have to pay 87,500 back.  I'd hate to think anyone would only average 55k a year as an attorney, but I guess that might happen.
The majority of people will have to pay a lot more later than they would have under a normal plan.

You are essentially arguing that going to law school isn't a bad decision even if you go to a T4 and graduate with a ton of debt.  We are arguing that your statistical chance of that being a good financial investment is very low.  But go ahead and make the most of it if that's what you want out of life.

Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: lawstudent2011 on February 24, 2011, 09:19:18 AM
"good investment" is a relative term. If you read my earlier posts I was argueing with some idiot who wanted to believe that most lawyers will make under $30K. You are saying(very correctly) that most will make well over $55K. Many will make well over $100K.
This is a good thing. I think we both should be able to argue that.
We also agree that students loans are payable based on income. So a "huge" debt is a relative term also. If you make the big bucks, you can pay it back with little problem(so why thebitchin? ???) If you get screwed and make tiny amounts, you walk away debt free since it evaporates in a few years anyways with $0 payments, or close to it.

You are right most will make in the middle at first, and it will help them ease into it. People just want to cry. Let them cry.
In all reality what else is there out there? Medical school? Fine, but most lawyers wouldn't be fit to work in a butchershop let alone an ER.
That leaves what, cutting hair? ::)


My point is that on the income based loan repayment plan, most people will end up paying all of their loans back because they won't always be stuck at a low income for 25 years.  It gives people the opportunity to ease into the payments, but it's not an enviable situation.

If you have 120k in debt and two kids, you will have to pay about 275 bucks a month under the plan if you make 55,000 a year.  If you are stuck at 55,000 for the next 25 years then you will only have to pay 87,500 back.  I'd hate to think anyone would only average 55k a year as an attorney, but I guess that might happen.
The majority of people will have to pay a lot more later than they would have under a normal plan.

You are essentially arguing that going to law school isn't a bad decision even if you go to a T4 and graduate with a ton of debt.  We are arguing that your statistical chance of that being a good financial investment is very low.  But go ahead and make the most of it if that's what you want out of life.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: jack24 on February 24, 2011, 09:53:26 AM
There are a lot of other options out there.  I think you and I can agree that you should go to law school if you want to be a lawyer, and then find a way to make it work.  (Although I think a lot of people go to law school without enough experience to know if they want to be a lawyer)

Feel free to ignore the rest of this post, but I'm very bored in a very boring 3L class, so I need something to do.

I want to contrast the experience of an attorney I know and a potential alternative.

This attorney was on Law review, he was in the top half of his class at a school ranked in the 60-80 range.  He built up 90,000 in debt in law school, and he got a job in a good DA's office in a medium sized metro area (Population around 2 million).

He started 8 years ago at 50,000/year and now he makes 83,000 per year.  He and I are good friends so he told me his ballpark salary for each year. 

Another man I know got his degree in business and got a job as a community banker.  He started his career the same year my attorney friend started law school, so it's perfect for this comparison.

Here's how the 11 years worked out for the two of them.

Year One:   Lawyer -30,000  ; Banker (Teller) 19,500
 Two:  Lawyer -30,000  ; Banker (Car Loans) 24,500
 Three: Lawyer -30,000  ;  Banker (Assistant Manager) 29,000
 Four: Lawyer: 50,000  ;  Banker (Branch Manager) 38,000
 Five:  Lawyer 52,000  ;  Banker  42,000
Six:  Lawyer 54,000   ;   Banker 46,000
Seven:  Lawyer (Promoted) 62,000   ;  Banker  50,000
Eight:  Lawyer  65,000  ;   Banker 52,500
Nine:  Lawyer  67,000  ;   Banker (Regional Manager)  63,000
Ten:  Lawyer (Promoted) 80,000  ;  Banker  66,000
Eleven:  Lawyer: 83000  ;  Banker  69,000

If we don't consider any interest, then the lawyer sits at a total income (minus loans) of $423,000 over 11 Years
The Banker sits at  $499,500.

Eventually the lawyer will probably pass the banker, unless the banker gets a better promotion or has a different successful business venture.  Maybe the lawyer might even jump into private practice and start making $200,000 a year.

To those who want to go to law school: Just consider how this was a good candidate who got a decent job right out of law school about 8 years ago (When the market was probably a lot better than now).   Law school might be a good investment, but think of what else you could accomplish with 3 years of freedom and close to 100,000 dollars?

I just don't think anyone should go to law school unless their primary motivation is that they want to work as a lawyer for 45-70 hours a week. 




"good investment" is a relative term. If you read my earlier posts I was argueing with some idiot who wanted to believe that most lawyers will make under $30K. You are saying(very correctly) that most will make well over $55K. Many will make well over $100K.
This is a good thing. I think we both should be able to argue that.
We also agree that students loans are payable based on income. So a "huge" debt is a relative term also. If you make the big bucks, you can pay it back with little problem(so why thebitchin? ???) If you get screwed and make tiny amounts, you walk away debt free since it evaporates in a few years anyways with $0 payments, or close to it.

You are right most will make in the middle at first, and it will help them ease into it. People just want to cry. Let them cry.
In all reality what else is there out there? Medical school? Fine, but most lawyers wouldn't be fit to work in a butchershop let alone an ER.
That leaves what, cutting hair? ::)

Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: Hamilton on February 24, 2011, 11:02:31 AM
50K to 80K is not that much for an annual income - ESPECIALLY if you have significant student loans to repay.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: lawstudent2011 on February 24, 2011, 11:45:09 AM
For the most part I think you and I are saying the same basic thing. Don't go into ANY profession unless you are willing to put up with a little heartache from time to time. The same mentality I suspect is why less than a third of the nation even applies to serve in the military. (they might make me cry :'( ) But then again, that's probably why I have a grunt mentality on it. Do your job, get it done, move on with life.

I suspect most people are just weak and would cry no matter they do in life. For example the head banker example would require a CPA/MBA which would also put you in debt and the odds of getting that job are virtually zero. Most end up as the teller making the same as the guy serving slurpies down the road. :P



There are a lot of other options out there.  I think you and I can agree that you should go to law school if you want to be a lawyer, and then find a way to make it work.  (Although I think a lot of people go to law school without enough experience to know if they want to be a lawyer)

Feel free to ignore the rest of this post, but I'm very bored in a very boring 3L class, so I need something to do.

I want to contrast the experience of an attorney I know and a potential alternative.

This attorney was on Law review, he was in the top half of his class at a school ranked in the 60-80 range.  He built up 90,000 in debt in law school, and he got a job in a good DA's office in a medium sized metro area (Population around 2 million).

He started 8 years ago at 50,000/year and now he makes 83,000 per year.  He and I are good friends so he told me his ballpark salary for each year. 

Another man I know got his degree in business and got a job as a community banker.  He started his career the same year my attorney friend started law school, so it's perfect for this comparison.

Here's how the 11 years worked out for the two of them.

Year One:   Lawyer -30,000  ; Banker (Teller) 19,500
 Two:  Lawyer -30,000  ; Banker (Car Loans) 24,500
 Three: Lawyer -30,000  ;  Banker (Assistant Manager) 29,000
 Four: Lawyer: 50,000  ;  Banker (Branch Manager) 38,000
 Five:  Lawyer 52,000  ;  Banker  42,000
Six:  Lawyer 54,000   ;   Banker 46,000
Seven:  Lawyer (Promoted) 62,000   ;  Banker  50,000
Eight:  Lawyer  65,000  ;   Banker 52,500
Nine:  Lawyer  67,000  ;   Banker (Regional Manager)  63,000
Ten:  Lawyer (Promoted) 80,000  ;  Banker  66,000
Eleven:  Lawyer: 83000  ;  Banker  69,000

If we don't consider any interest, then the lawyer sits at a total income (minus loans) of $423,000 over 11 Years
The Banker sits at  $499,500.

Eventually the lawyer will probably pass the banker, unless the banker gets a better promotion or has a different successful business venture.  Maybe the lawyer might even jump into private practice and start making $200,000 a year.

To those who want to go to law school: Just consider how this was a good candidate who got a decent job right out of law school about 8 years ago (When the market was probably a lot better than now).   Law school might be a good investment, but think of what else you could accomplish with 3 years of freedom and close to 100,000 dollars?

I just don't think anyone should go to law school unless their primary motivation is that they want to work as a lawyer for 45-70 hours a week. 




"good investment" is a relative term. If you read my earlier posts I was argueing with some idiot who wanted to believe that most lawyers will make under $30K. You are saying(very correctly) that most will make well over $55K. Many will make well over $100K.
This is a good thing. I think we both should be able to argue that.
We also agree that students loans are payable based on income. So a "huge" debt is a relative term also. If you make the big bucks, you can pay it back with little problem(so why thebitchin? ???) If you get screwed and make tiny amounts, you walk away debt free since it evaporates in a few years anyways with $0 payments, or close to it.

You are right most will make in the middle at first, and it will help them ease into it. People just want to cry. Let them cry.
In all reality what else is there out there? Medical school? Fine, but most lawyers wouldn't be fit to work in a butchershop let alone an ER.
That leaves what, cutting hair? ::)

Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: lawstudent2011 on February 24, 2011, 11:45:54 AM
case in point with this winner eh jack? 8)

50K to 80K is not that much for an annual income - ESPECIALLY if you have significant student loans to repay.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: jack24 on February 24, 2011, 05:21:37 PM
That head banker is a real person.  He had a bachelors in business.  Very few community bankers go to grad school.
I was a branch manager before law school as well.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: lawstudent2011 on February 24, 2011, 06:03:29 PM
That head banker is a real person.  He had a bachelors in business.  Very few community bankers go to grad school.
I was a branch manager before law school as well.

I never suggested that he wasn't a real person. As a former banker yourself I think you can agree that is the exception more than the standard. Afterall, if you were doing such aces while there, why not stay for life? ???
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: haus on February 24, 2011, 06:07:40 PM
Do forums about technical/trade schools get filled with post telling people not to become plumbers?
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: lawstudent2011 on February 24, 2011, 06:49:16 PM
Naw, people love pulling dead rats out of poo filled septic pipes. THATS where it's at!  ;)

Do forums about technical/trade schools get filled with post telling people not to become plumbers?
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: the white rabbit on February 24, 2011, 10:27:16 PM
How the hell do you figure that?


I'm glad that at least we don't disagree that you're just making an assumption.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Oh I'm sorry, you DO disagree that you're just making an assumption?
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: lawstudent2011 on February 24, 2011, 11:39:21 PM
you just like to type randomshit huh? :-X

How the hell do you figure that?


I'm glad that at least we don't disagree that you're just making an assumption.
[/quote]

Oh I'm sorry, you DO disagree that you're just making an assumption?
[/quote]
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: the white rabbit on February 25, 2011, 03:10:42 AM
you just like to type randomshit huh? :-X

Oh I just like pointing out when people are essentially making stuff up and presenting it as fact.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: lawstudent2011 on February 25, 2011, 10:40:10 AM
wow....

2 plus 2 equals 4. You might be simple enough to need to put two apples in a hat and add two more to see it, most don't.

Same applies to debt to income ratios. You make little, you pay little. You make lots, you can afford to repay so it's ok.
It wouldn't matter if we were talking about lawyers or trained chimps at the zoo, it's the same math. No assumption needed.

I get it, you want to cry. Go ahead and cry. :'( :-X

you just like to type randomshit huh? :-X

Oh I just like pointing out when people are essentially making stuff up and presenting it as fact.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: the white rabbit on February 26, 2011, 02:06:39 PM
wow....

2 plus 2 equals 4. You might be simple enough to need to put two apples in a hat and add two more to see it, most don't.

2 plus 2 always equals 4, whereas not every plausible explanation is a correct explanation.  You offered a plausible explanation as to why people would say don't go to law school, and an assumption is needed if you're going to accept that explanation as correct.

Don't worry, I'm not trying to convince you of anything.  I'm just pointing out the errors in your logic for anyone who might read your posts and get the wrong idea.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: lawstudent2011 on February 26, 2011, 02:59:01 PM
as a very wise man once said "don't argue with retards" Enjoy you life fluffy. :-X

wow....

2 plus 2 equals 4. You might be simple enough to need to put two apples in a hat and add two more to see it, most don't.

2 plus 2 always equals 4, whereas not every plausible explanation is a correct explanation.  You offered a plausible explanation as to why people would say don't go to law school, and an assumption is needed if you're going to accept that explanation as correct.

Don't worry, I'm not trying to convince you of anything.  I'm just pointing out the errors in your logic for anyone who might read your posts and get the wrong idea.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: the white rabbit on February 27, 2011, 11:38:57 AM
as a very wise man once said "don't argue with retards" Enjoy you life fluffy. :-X

::)
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: dalgray on September 13, 2011, 01:24:35 AM
Not going to law school may well be a very good choice for many people. It takes seven or eight years to qualify, no wonder it might not be the best choice for everybody.
Why should it take upwards of eight years? The truth is it doesn't have to there are alternative approaches. In England lawyers normally take five years from high school to full qualification at the bar. What you Americans perhaps don't yet know is that they can then take, and they do in significant numbers, the New York State or the California state bar examinations. There is a twist to this it can be one year shorter than the usual five years. In Britain, law students go directly from high school to law school without taking a non-cognate four year bachelor’s degree. There are now two year bachelor law degrees in Britain to qualify you to become barristers or solicitors. I will leave you to look up the differences between these two professions.

The only question is whether state bar examiners will accept a two-year undergraduate regime for a full academic training in the law. In principle it should not be a problem is the degrees include the same number of hours lecture time and tutorial support is the usual three year LLB. The difference between the degrees, is that the intensive courses at two further subjects for two summer terms. In short you dual four years work with their summer vacation on the two year degree.

There is absolutely no reason why American law students shouldn't use this jurisdictional difference for their advantage. The process is somewhat complex but far from impossible the book Law in Four sets out how to do this see the web site at www.lawinfour.com.
While the book deals with how to qualify as an attorney at law in as little as four years from leaving high school, it also tackles the winners costs are English costs system which is now being introduced to some extent in Texas. You will also find that the degrees I'm not all that expensive when compared with many of the US law school fees. The cost of flying the Atlantic isn't that much greater than flying from coast-to-coast within the United States. There is not many real objections to stand up to fault qualifying by the UK.

Another thing that needs to be borne in mind in these times of tight employment is having practical qualifications and above all extra jurisdictional access to the European Union and of course to the very many countries that are within the British Commonwealth. Merely having a bundle of degrees put you in the same class as very many other people but adding jurisdictions put you in a much tighter and more useful class of lawyer. So it's not so stupid to qualify for the UK.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: JBrien on February 21, 2012, 03:32:34 PM
The simple truth of the matter is that law school (and more importantly a career in law) is right for some people and not right for others.  Unfortunately too many people go to law school for the wrong reasons (money, parents, they don’t know what else to do), and that is why there is so much bitterness from people on law school discussion boards. 

So then how do you find out if a career in law is right for you?

1) First you have to conduct a deep self-assessment of who you are.  Think about your strengths and weaknesses; what geographic location do you want to work; do you want to travel in your work; are you more business or litigation oriented; what do you value the most time or money…  The easiest way to do this is isolate yourself for several hours and write down everything you can think of regarding your personality.

2) Learn about the lawyer personality.  Though there are many different forms, types and niches of law, with different personality types suited for each, there is an overall lawyer personality.  The general lawyer personality is characterized by; hard working, type A, highly critical, disciplined, ability to separate emotions from the matter at hand, thick skinned. 

3) Talk to attorneys who practice in the niches of law that interest you.  Find out from those that actually practice law what it is like (and not recent grads).  Talk to those lawyers who have practiced for a t least a few years.  Ask them what it is like, and what type of personality is required for their niche.

The fact remains that in this economy it is tough for everyone…  The bitterness concerning law school can be avoided if law school candidates (and recent graduates) where to spend more time researching what a lawyer does, and what the lawyer personality is really like vs. trying to score highly on the lsat or get a high paying job. 

Check out the below sites for a more thorough discussion…  Hope this helps!

http://www.become-a-lawyer.com/how-to-become-a-lawyer.html
http://www.become-a-lawyer.com/

Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: jack24 on February 24, 2012, 11:43:14 AM
I appreciate what you are trying to do, but it won't help.   If you don't have any family connections, I would say you have about a 5-10% chance of landing in the law job you wanted before you started law school.  That doesn't mean you can't enjoy the job you get, but much of the research people do is a waste. 
I speak Chinese, so I wanted to do international business in China.  I had a connection to an international lawyer at a medium sized firm in my city who happened to have a lot of work in China. (He was a managing partner)   I talked to him several times and got a good feel for his practice and his day-to-day operation.  He said that if I went to a top 100 law school, placed in the top quarter, did law review and moot court, and passed the bar, he'd hire me as an associate.  I did everything he said I needed to do, I kept in touch with him, and I passed a Chinese translation exam with the FBI.  Unfortunately, I finished school in 2011 and he was getting 20-30 resume's from Ivy educated lawyers every month.  He told me he couldn't justify hiring me.    I applied for 160 jobs, I sent out close to 500 resumes/cover letters, and I networked like crazy.  I now do a mixture of collections and personal injury work for a small firm.  I'm fortunate to have a job, but my situation is nothing in the neighborhood of what I wanted.   Most law students go to school with some idea of what they want to do, and the overwhelming majority end up doing something different.



The simple truth of the matter is that law school (and more importantly a career in law) is right for some people and not right for others.  Unfortunately too many people go to law school for the wrong reasons (money, parents, they don’t know what else to do), and that is why there is so much bitterness from people on law school discussion boards. 

So then how do you find out if a career in law is right for you?

1) First you have to conduct a deep self-assessment of who you are.  Think about your strengths and weaknesses; what geographic location do you want to work; do you want to travel in your work; are you more business or litigation oriented; what do you value the most time or money…  The easiest way to do this is isolate yourself for several hours and write down everything you can think of regarding your personality.

2) Learn about the lawyer personality.  Though there are many different forms, types and niches of law, with different personality types suited for each, there is an overall lawyer personality.  The general lawyer personality is characterized by; hard working, type A, highly critical, disciplined, ability to separate emotions from the matter at hand, thick skinned. 

3) Talk to attorneys who practice in the niches of law that interest you.  Find out from those that actually practice law what it is like (and not recent grads).  Talk to those lawyers who have practiced for a t least a few years.  Ask them what it is like, and what type of personality is required for their niche.

The fact remains that in this economy it is tough for everyone…  The bitterness concerning law school can be avoided if law school candidates (and recent graduates) where to spend more time researching what a lawyer does, and what the lawyer personality is really like vs. trying to score highly on the lsat or get a high paying job. 

Check out the below sites for a more thorough discussion…  Hope this helps!

http://www.become-a-lawyer.com/how-to-become-a-lawyer.html
http://www.become-a-lawyer.com/
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: sollicitus on February 24, 2012, 12:48:18 PM
I appreciate what you are trying to do, but it won't help.   If you don't have any family connections, I would say you have about a 5-10% chance of landing in the law job you wanted before you started law school.  That doesn't mean you can't enjoy the job you get, but much of the research people do is a waste. 
I speak Chinese, so I wanted to do international business in China.  I had a connection to an international lawyer at a medium sized firm in my city who happened to have a lot of work in China. (He was a managing partner)   I talked to him several times and got a good feel for his practice and his day-to-day operation.  He said that if I went to a top 100 law school, placed in the top quarter, did law review and moot court, and passed the bar, he'd hire me as an associate.  I did everything he said I needed to do, I kept in touch with him, and I passed a Chinese translation exam with the FBI.  Unfortunately, I finished school in 2011 and he was getting 20-30 resume's from Ivy educated lawyers every month.  He told me he couldn't justify hiring me.    I applied for 160 jobs, I sent out close to 500 resumes/cover letters, and I networked like crazy.  I now do a mixture of collections and personal injury work for a small firm.  I'm fortunate to have a job, but my situation is nothing in the neighborhood of what I wanted.   Most law students go to school with some idea of what they want to do, and the overwhelming majority end up doing something different.



The simple truth of the matter is that law school (and more importantly a career in law) is right for some people and not right for others.  Unfortunately too many people go to law school for the wrong reasons (money, parents, they don’t know what else to do), and that is why there is so much bitterness from people on law school discussion boards. 

So then how do you find out if a career in law is right for you?

1) First you have to conduct a deep self-assessment of who you are.  Think about your strengths and weaknesses; what geographic location do you want to work; do you want to travel in your work; are you more business or litigation oriented; what do you value the most time or money…  The easiest way to do this is isolate yourself for several hours and write down everything you can think of regarding your personality.

2) Learn about the lawyer personality.  Though there are many different forms, types and niches of law, with different personality types suited for each, there is an overall lawyer personality.  The general lawyer personality is characterized by; hard working, type A, highly critical, disciplined, ability to separate emotions from the matter at hand, thick skinned. 

3) Talk to attorneys who practice in the niches of law that interest you.  Find out from those that actually practice law what it is like (and not recent grads).  Talk to those lawyers who have practiced for a t least a few years.  Ask them what it is like, and what type of personality is required for their niche.

The fact remains that in this economy it is tough for everyone…  The bitterness concerning law school can be avoided if law school candidates (and recent graduates) where to spend more time researching what a lawyer does, and what the lawyer personality is really like vs. trying to score highly on the lsat or get a high paying job. 

Check out the below sites for a more thorough discussion…  Hope this helps!

http://www.become-a-lawyer.com/how-to-become-a-lawyer.html
http://www.become-a-lawyer.com/

Nepotism. Alive and Well.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: PublicServiceAnnouncement on July 11, 2012, 06:24:09 PM
So here's an update.  Several months after posting that, I was in a doc review hell job and an opportunity came up in a field where they hire lawyers but the job is a non-lawyer job.  I took the job, did really well in it and had a couple pretty good years learning the ropes.  Then I figured the business out a bit more and have been making solid six figures for the last three years in a low cost big city.  I could pay off my loans this second if I wanted to but they are pretty much wiped out for the most part. 

If I wanted to, I could go to a law firm specializing in my industry, but I really enjoy being out of the law and the people I meet are great.  The non-law career is about the same general pay, but being in business generally has a better long term upside than being a businessman's lawyer does.

I guess the point is, the law degree did ultimately kick in a start becoming useful, but that was a really rough time.  The market was really bad in 2007 and it's like 50 times worse now.  I can't say I'd recommend going to law school in this climate unless law is the family business, you get into an ivy or you are just the best test taker ever.  I really feel bad for the kids graduating into this *&^% storm with no jobs and debt coming out if their ears.  We need a pro-growth president ASAP. That's the biggest moral issue of our time in my opinion.  Too much bad policies have created a *&^% storm for young adults just trying to start their lives.  As much as I like Obama, he's got to be replaced by someone who understands economics.  End political rant.

Also, to clear up a misperception, I NEVER had originally wanted to go to big law and I did want to help people.  Now I just make good money and enjoy my life in a relatively stress free job.  I do occasionally help people with legal advice, career advice or with something totally random. 

I think I'll go outside and sit by the pool.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: legend on July 11, 2012, 07:04:52 PM
I just want to say it is very refreshing to see someone post that.

I personally went through the same frustrations. Starting out after law school not getting a fresh student loan distribution and having 0 experience is terrible. When you were a OL watching movies like the Firm and so forth you really expected to be wined and dined for getting a J.D.

As you know it is not how it works and I made plenty of mistakes, went through some sh*t jobs, and so forth after graduation. It was a miserable two or so years out of the gate and I was lucky enough to pass the bar first time on my first try I had friend's that didn't.  While doing doc-review, contract jobs, etc I was not excited and I although I didn't personally complain on these boards  I thought about it.  If I did I probably would not have updated and people would have assumed my life was ruined. I believe many frustrated J.D's make posts like yours, which I sincerely thought about and it  makes posts like yours saying it was terrible are never corrected updated etc. Then linger on boards and OL's and other people read it and assume the person's life was forever ruined.

However, as you came to realize a lot can happen in a lifetime and having a law license can open some doors. Furthermore, education is a long term investment your follow-up posts proves that as does my own experience. I imagine many others would say the same.

 Glad to hear everything worked out!
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: FalconJimmy on July 12, 2012, 08:00:16 AM
I wish more folks would post like the two of you.  I agree, a law degree is a long term investment and it may pay off in ways that you never imagined as a 1L.  The economy is crap right now, but in 15 years, it won't be like this.  If you plan on being alive then, you might want to set yourself up.

Also, the boomers will start retiring soon.  Granted, they're not retiring in the numbers they should.  They're a generation that will probably die at their desks.  Once they're gone, though, there should be a lot of job openings.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: jack24 on July 12, 2012, 08:50:13 AM
I agree that this outlook is refreshing.   But let's crunch the numbers.

Consider $125,000 in loans, payable over 25 years at 7.2 percent.

$125,000 in principal
$144,845 in interest
$120,000 in opportunity cost (From not working those three years of law school)

That works out to $15,593 per year for 25 years.   To break even, you have to average $15,593 more annual NET INCOME per year for 25 years.

Who knows how much you would have made without law school... but it's plausible, maybe probable, that a legal education will pay off by the 25 year mark for the median law student out there.

The BLS says the median pay for lawyers (not starting salary) in 2010 was $112,760.  http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Legal/Lawyers.htm
sales managers in 2010 was $98,530.  http://www.bls.gov/ooh/management/sales-managers.htm
computer systems analyst in 2010 was $77,740  http://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/computer-systems-analysts.htm
Network Administrator: $69,160  http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Computer-and-Information-Technology/Network-and-computer-systems-administrators.htm
Here's a list of some other business field careers and their medians.  http://www.bls.gov/ooh/management/sales-managers.htm#tab-7

A legal career pays off against almost all of those careers (for the median person).

I think it's a good investment in the long run for most people,  but:

1: A lot of people are below the median.  And a large portion (impossible to know how large) won't make enough money for it to be worth it.  However, maybe they would have sucked at everything else.
2: Law school doesn't teach you how to be a practicing lawyer or how to make money.
3: Law school is inefficient and the tuition was rising far too rapidly.
4: Legal jobs are so diverse, that it's extremely difficult to predict what kind of work you will be doing after graduation.
5: The first five years can be brutal for the massive portion of attorneys who start at less than 60k per year.



Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: FalconJimmy on July 12, 2012, 11:23:10 AM
I agree that this outlook is refreshing.   But let's crunch the numbers.

Consider $125,000 in loans, payable over 25 years at 7.2 percent.

$125,000 in principal
$144,845 in interest
$120,000 in opportunity cost (From not working those three years of law school)

That works out to $15,593 per year for 25 years.   To break even, you have to average $15,593 more annual NET INCOME per year for 25 years.

Who knows how much you would have made without law school... but it's plausible, maybe probable, that a legal education will pay off by the 25 year mark for the median law student out there.

The BLS says the median pay for lawyers (not starting salary) in 2010 was $112,760.  http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Legal/Lawyers.htm
sales managers in 2010 was $98,530.  http://www.bls.gov/ooh/management/sales-managers.htm
computer systems analyst in 2010 was $77,740  http://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/computer-systems-analysts.htm
Network Administrator: $69,160  http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Computer-and-Information-Technology/Network-and-computer-systems-administrators.htm
Here's a list of some other business field careers and their medians.  http://www.bls.gov/ooh/management/sales-managers.htm#tab-7

A legal career pays off against almost all of those careers (for the median person).

I think it's a good investment in the long run for most people,  but:

1: A lot of people are below the median.  And a large portion (impossible to know how large) won't make enough money for it to be worth it.  However, maybe they would have sucked at everything else.
2: Law school doesn't teach you how to be a practicing lawyer or how to make money.
3: Law school is inefficient and the tuition was rising far too rapidly.
4: Legal jobs are so diverse, that it's extremely difficult to predict what kind of work you will be doing after graduation.
5: The first five years can be brutal for the massive portion of attorneys who start at less than 60k per year.

Jack, love the analysis, but the opportunity cost element of this equation is overstated if you ask me.

The reasons are:
1.  You will not save any of that money.  You'll consume 100% of it by living day-to-day.
2.  The day-to-day living is already accounted for in loans on the other half of the equation.

So, this is really taking the same variable and working against law school on both sides of the ledger.

Now, what is more accurate to say is that by working, you'll eat a little less ramen.  At the end of both periods, though, you won't have anything to show for it.  In the work case, you will break-even, in the LS case, you will have debt.  Once you account for the debt, you account for the entire impact of not-working.

Also, I am one of the majority of law students who, no way, no how, will get a lucrative job offer upon graduation.  Just won't happen.

I'm already resigned to starting my own practice, and I already know that's a road fraught with pitfalls.

Seems like the law is a great career for people who are either ultra-brainy (can pull a high class rank) or highly entrepreneurial.  It is not necessarily a great move for people who are merely moderately bright and get a minimal set of credentials.  (Unremarkable class rank and bar passage.)  Those folks might have had a great career in the law 50 years ago.  Not so much today.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: legend on July 12, 2012, 12:19:30 PM
No doubt there are "BETTER" ways to make money and anyone is going to law school solely for the purpose of being rich there much better ways to do it. During undergrad and a little after I worked for a Clinical Psychologist who wanted to take me under his wing.  He had a thriving practice he was making 15,000 or more a day. I don't know if this is common in that profession, but he really liked me and wanted me to get my Ph.D work alongside him. I am sure I would have made more money than I do now, but Clinical psychology is not my passion. It was a job I had in college to pay the bills and it was interesting enough, but not for me.

Something about being a lawyer appealed to me and it still does. I love the rush of arguing a case in court it just makes me feel alive and I would pay money to have that rush and I am lucky enough to get paid to do it. This goes to my overall point is each person's situation is unique there are likely plenty of lawyers who never want to be in court. They might think drafting a will/trust etc that saves 2,00,000 in taxes is fascinating. I don't, but there are people that do.

However, look at the list of 500 wealthiest people in the world I don't think any are practicing lawyers. If you want to go rich work on wall street, be a garbageman (I imagine many of them do make more money than lawyers, etc. Point is there are much better ways to make money than being a lawyer, but it is one of the only jobs where only a law license can allow you do certain things. If your friend gets a arrested you can't represent them in court unless you have a law license. If a family member's friend is going through divorce you can't represent them unless you have a law license. Etc, etc.

Is law school a golden ticket? No. Is it a fascinating career? For me yes, but for many others no.

Always remember your career is a highly personal choice and there is often a lot more to career satisfaction than having an extra 0 on your account balance.

Just my two cents as an anonymous internet poster.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: jack24 on July 12, 2012, 12:54:58 PM

Jack, love the analysis, but the opportunity cost element of this equation is overstated if you ask me.

The reasons are:
1.  You will not save any of that money.  You'll consume 100% of it by living day-to-day.
2.  The day-to-day living is already accounted for in loans on the other half of the equation.

So, this is really taking the same variable and working against law school on both sides of the ledger.

Now, what is more accurate to say is that by working, you'll eat a little less ramen.  At the end of both periods, though, you won't have anything to show for it.  In the work case, you will break-even, in the LS case, you will have debt.  Once you account for the debt, you account for the entire impact of not-working.

Also, I am one of the majority of law students who, no way, no how, will get a lucrative job offer upon graduation.  Just won't happen.

I'm already resigned to starting my own practice, and I already know that's a road fraught with pitfalls.

Seems like the law is a great career for people who are either ultra-brainy (can pull a high class rank) or highly entrepreneurial.  It is not necessarily a great move for people who are merely moderately bright and get a minimal set of credentials.  (Unremarkable class rank and bar passage.)  Those folks might have had a great career in the law 50 years ago.  Not so much today.

It is probably overstated, but opportunity cost should at least include any money you could have saved, any assets you could have developed, and any interest you accrued during law school that I didn't include in the calculation.  Plus the better lifestyle during those years counts for something, at least.

Either way, over the long term, law school can make financial sense.

Legend makes some great points as well, but I'm not so sure people can identify whether they are right for law before trying it.   I love going to court as well.  I did it all the time during my internships, but I don't get to in my current job.
I have a good job for a fair wage doing assignments that bore me to tears.   If I wanted to be bored all day long I would have been a pharmacist.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: PublicServiceAnnouncement on July 12, 2012, 04:42:13 PM
I appreciate the sane replies. 

I will add though that I am very, very fortunate to live in a low regulation, low tax state where the unemployment rate is nowhere near what it is elsewhere (hint: it has about 32 electoral votes and shares a border with Mexico).  My opportunities would not have been available in new england or california.  AND I didnt have high student loans.  I think in-state tuition at my state school is now double what it was when I went.  That's pretty brutal.  I would really advise people to find a good business outside the law and volunteer somewhere if they want to help people, or just work for a non-profit if making money is not a huge necessity.

On the other hand, the job market will indeed pick up in ten or fifteen years when the boomers retire as another poster mentioned.  But, who can wait so long?  Also, boomers will be retiring from every industry, not just law.

I still advise against the law to young people in high school planning their careers. 
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: haus on July 12, 2012, 06:32:58 PM
On the other hand, the job market will indeed pick up in ten or fifteen years when the boomers retire as another poster mentioned.  But, who can wait so long?  Also, boomers will be retiring from every industry, not just law.

I still advise against the law to young people in high school planning their careers.
So your recommendation to the young folk out there is what... be born at a different time, place yourself in some form of stasis? Simply avoiding something is not much of a plan, offering suggestions of something that you suspect would work is likely to be much more useful.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: legend on July 12, 2012, 08:58:22 PM
@Jack I am guessing your still young I am just about to be 30, but that is still pretty young in the legal profession. I have been out for a few years and am finally starting to get to go to court. There horrendous doc-review jobs, contract jobs, etc coming out, but a legal career can span over 30-40 years. I can't tell you how many things have changed being out in 5 years for me personally and I speculate in 5 more years the landscape will change in my career again. However, I will still have that license to practice law which only law school can give you.

As for most people in law school and so forth online to tier 4 to Harvard really take a look around the rest of the world and realize you are quite lucky. I played a lot of sports growing up and didn't come from any kind money. Everybody's parents just wanted their kids to go to a university to get a 4 year degree and nobody expected a doctorate for any of us. Not to mention I was still an American Citizen and my parents had a car an ugly POS car, but 90% of people worldwide don't even have that.

It is common and I do it myself sometimes, but everybody is constantly looking up at what others have and not appreciating what they do have. The reality is if you have made it into law school your life has been pretty fortunate and a lot of people would love to be a licensed lawyer.

Maybe a little to philosophical, but just something to consider.

-You are correct that you can't really know if law school is for you or not. Being a paralegal or something might give some insight, or doing mock trial in college could help, but you can't understand law school until your in it I suppose. It is something that works out for some and not for others, but you could say that about any career.

Again happy to hear everything worked out for OP, your making a fair wage, and my legal career is going alright, I hope the same for everyone else that is chasing the J.D dream, or  working out there in the crazy world.

Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: PublicServiceAnnouncement on July 12, 2012, 10:40:12 PM
On the other hand, the job market will indeed pick up in ten or fifteen years when the boomers retire as another poster mentioned.  But, who can wait so long?  Also, boomers will be retiring from every industry, not just law.

I still advise against the law to young people in high school planning their careers.
So your recommendation to the young folk out there is what... be born at a different time, place yourself in some form of stasis? Simply avoiding something is not much of a plan, offering suggestions of something that you suspect would work is likely to be much more useful.

Good question.  Basically where I went wrong was to get a liberal arts degree in a subject I was interested in which is pretty typical advice to be given even if not going to law school.  Then, my plan was just to rely on law school to get me a great career via the typical job interview process.  I would be a lawyer and then be making lots of money.  That didn't work.  There was a lot of pain and uncertainty in that plan.

What I would have done differently in high school is focused in on an undergrad degree that gave me a marketable skill set set such as engineering, business, finance, geology, etc, ie jobs that employ lots of people.  For people already on the liberal arts degree path, I would tell them to talk to people who are successful in their grg area in order to find industries where there is a clear defined path to making money.  In better times that could have been commercial real estate.  It could be anything though.  If your state has lots of paper mills for example, what are the white collar jobs that go into producing paper for the masses?  How do you get into that field?  Are there professional associations to network into?  Do you live in LA?  What are the business sides of the film business that are in demand?  Identify the bread and butter industries for your region and find out how to get into those industries before you get locked into a career path.  Try it for a few years and learn everything about the business.  If you fail to get ahead, you can always go to law school in a few years. 

If money isn't important and you want to help people, work at a nonprofit and actually help more people than you would as a debt impoverished attorney.

Also, I would recommend night law school to anyone over regular law school.  If you just absolutely have to go to law school, get a job in that city first and then apply to go at night so you get income and experience and can take the best job you get upon graduating, not the first job offered.  Night law is a great option and is largely exempt from my critiques of law school.

Finally, I would recommend traditional law school if you get into a fantastic school like Harvard or Stanford or something like that.  Then, it's still a strong bet.  BUT, anything short of that and I would recommend what I'm telling you here.



Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: haus on July 13, 2012, 08:41:25 AM
@PSA,

I find your (relative) support for night school to be an interesting angle (disclaimer: I am a non-trad considering a night school program, because I am finding my job/career/field is getting moving into an era where law/policy/contract details are becoming more important factors). I am a big fan of the idea that many of the great opportunities in the near future (e.g. next 30-50 years) will be an the intersection of multiple disciplines, and those people that find successful combinations of skills across disciplines can be in a nice position to capitalize.

An obvious downside to this is the amount of time and effort this takes. Not only does one need to develop skills in multiple fields, be prepared to stay relevant in these area, and the need to make and maintain contacts across said fields. It makes me tired just thinking about it.

One generic modification I would suggest to your career advice would be for those people who are starting out to consider things outside their region. There is no reason to limit your opportunities due to happenstance of your current residence.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: PublicServiceAnnouncement on July 13, 2012, 06:16:41 PM
@PSA,

I find your (relative) support for night school to be an interesting angle (disclaimer: I am a non-trad considering a night school program, because I am finding my job/career/field is getting moving into an era where law/policy/contract details are becoming more important factors). I am a big fan of the idea that many of the great opportunities in the near future (e.g. next 30-50 years) will be an the intersection of multiple disciplines, and those people that find successful combinations of skills across disciplines can be in a nice position to capitalize.

An obvious downside to this is the amount of time and effort this takes. Not only does one need to develop skills in multiple fields, be prepared to stay relevant in these area, and the need to make and maintain contacts across said fields. It makes me tired just thinking about it.

One generic modification I would suggest to your career advice would be for those people who are starting out to consider things outside their region. There is no reason to limit your opportunities due to happenstance of your current residence.

Yes, I absolutely agree.  It seems like you have a solid plan and are looking into law school with a clear objective of enhancing your earning prospects within an existing career while not quitting work for 3 years.  MBA programs cater to people like you.  I think the night law "stigma" if there ever was one is largely gone and people view it as a smart way to get ahead.  It is only an extra year if you can hack working and studying.
the night law people I've met have always seemed to be a bit extra bright and motivated as a group. 

I would add to my original advice that you could talk to lawyers and find out what their bread and butter business clients do.  Typically, there are far less outside lawyers than people working for the client directly as business people.  Often those business jobs are easier to get and possibly pay the same or more.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: jennid1234 on July 17, 2012, 05:58:11 PM
Go to law school and complete your JD degree or get a graduate degree ONLINE.  The money you will save will be put to better use and the degree will be the same 10 years down the road. 

http://www.lawjobs.com/newsandviews/LawArticle.jsp?id=1202425745957&slreturn=1&hbxlogin=1



Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: jack24 on September 05, 2012, 10:42:49 AM
Edit: Jack, if there's a link to something not remotely law-related in a poster's signature line, best move is just to report it and move on. Just another damned spammer.

What is legislations school?  Is that what they call it in the UK?

What is "good work."   I know plenty of extremely qualified attorneys working for less than 60  grand a year and making payments on $100,000+ loans.  For a large minority of law students, they could have made just as much money in a different industry and incurred much less debt.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: Cher1300 on September 05, 2012, 12:57:04 PM
@PSA,

I find your (relative) support for night school to be an interesting angle (disclaimer: I am a non-trad considering a night school program, because I am finding my job/career/field is getting moving into an era where law/policy/contract details are becoming more important factors). I am a big fan of the idea that many of the great opportunities in the near future (e.g. next 30-50 years) will be an the intersection of multiple disciplines, and those people that find successful combinations of skills across disciplines can be in a nice position to capitalize.

An obvious downside to this is the amount of time and effort this takes. Not only does one need to develop skills in multiple fields, be prepared to stay relevant in these area, and the need to make and maintain contacts across said fields. It makes me tired just thinking about it.

One generic modification I would suggest to your career advice would be for those people who are starting out to consider things outside their region. There is no reason to limit your opportunities due to happenstance of your current residence.

Yes, I absolutely agree.  It seems like you have a solid plan and are looking into law school with a clear objective of enhancing your earning prospects within an existing career while not quitting work for 3 years.  MBA programs cater to people like you.  I think the night law "stigma" if there ever was one is largely gone and people view it as a smart way to get ahead.  It is only an extra year if you can hack working and studying.
the night law people I've met have always seemed to be a bit extra bright and motivated as a group. 

I would add to my original advice that you could talk to lawyers and find out what their bread and butter business clients do.  Typically, there are far less outside lawyers than people working for the client directly as business people.  Often those business jobs are easier to get and possibly pay the same or more.

Now that subsidized loans are no longer given to graduate students, keeping your job and going to school at night seems more and more practical.  It takes only one year longer, and the debt will be far less.  I currently go at night and although I was worried my job might interfere, I'm so glad I did it especially because most of us didn't know the subsidized loans were going to be cut this year.  There are a few recent undergrads that decided to go the same route.  I was able to pay for about half my tuition the first year and about a third this year in addition to not taking out additional credit-based loans for living expenses.   Although this may not seem ideal for everyone, even working just part-time to pay for living expenses will help.  $150k in debt is not joke when there are very few job prospects out there.  If your job is not law-related you can quit your fourth year to get your intern/externship experience.  You will be busy.  There will be times where you feel like you are busy every minute of everyday, but it can be done if you have the right mindset.  Good luck with whatever you decide haus.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: SoCalLawGuy on September 17, 2012, 01:22:33 AM
I know law school is tough and it may suck out the life out of you but it doesn't mean I could never become a successful lawyer.
Title: Re: DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL!!!
Post by: cooley3L on September 17, 2012, 02:52:47 AM
I know law school is tough and it may suck out the life out of you but it doesn't mean I could never become a successful lawyer.
that wasn't even the main argument. And whats up with drudging up the dead high school threads? What the heck? Come on brother.