Law School Discussion

Specific Groups => Minority and Non-Traditional Law Students => Topic started by: dontknowwheretogo on July 20, 2007, 12:46:22 AM

Title: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: dontknowwheretogo on July 20, 2007, 12:46:22 AM
Okay, just to give you some background...I am a minority, but I don't consider myslef a URM.  Nevertheless, most people when looking at me are very confused by my race, becacuse I'm mixed.  I could pass as mexican american if I wanted to, based on the color of my skin and the way I look.  Anyways, that really has nothing to do with my question:


Is there any negative consquences if you "check the box" saying that you are some kind of URM (African American, Native American, Mexican American, etc.) when you aren't when you are applying to law school?  I mean, law schools don't define what these different races mean.  Could you still qualify as a Native American if you grew up in a primarily native american community and identify with native americans and their culture?  The law school applications don't provide a specific defintion, so it seems like it's open to interpretation....and if you take it to the most liberal extent, maybe anyone can consider themselves to be a URM given the proper context, regardless of the color of their skin.  Also, it's not like law schools check the color of your skin, or verify your race somehow - since it's all self selection.  So why not check the box?  The advantages are too great to pass up, in terms of admissions and scholarships...depending on which URM you are its equivalent of getting a 6-9 pt boost on the LSAT.  And, they aren't going to revoke your acceptance just because you dont "look" like a particular URM right? 

This is a serious question - I have always wondered this.  I am not necessarily against affirmative action, but, I have always wondered what prevents people from just cheating - since there seems to be no or little verification that the person is infact the race they claimed to be.  Let me know your thoughts on this.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: blackpowerman on July 20, 2007, 12:51:40 AM
As far as i know, from what ive read, you pretty much self identify yourself as whatever URM or color or race you want to claim.  As far as chekcing the black box and not being black?  You can be an eighth black and be white.  I have no idea though as to any consequence as getting caught lying...i mean, why would you even admit to it if they suspected you of cheating the system? 

im cursed- i have european american blood through and through, greek, and even though i am first generation here i get no special treatment like a black kid whose family has been here for 4 generations.  pretty shitttty if you ask me.  it all comes down to skin color i dont care what anyone else says.  and its all total bull shite, racist and bigotry. 
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: HAL 9000 on July 20, 2007, 01:19:51 AM
OP

http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php/topic,27879.0.html (http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php/topic,27879.0.html)


im cursed- i have european american blood through and through, greek, and even though i am first generation here i get no special treatment like a black kid whose family has been here for 4 generations. pretty shitttty if you ask me. it all comes down to skin color i dont care what anyone else says. and its all total bull shite, racist and bigotry.

You are Greek-American. Greek is a national, not racial, category. Greeks are Caucasian/White. Your racial group, Caucasian/White, is over-represented in law school.

Cursed? Please explain why you are entitled to special treatment when your race dominates the law school population and the legal profession?
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sstar on July 20, 2007, 01:33:13 AM
titcr. thats exactly my point.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: mscmoreau on July 20, 2007, 11:07:11 AM
I was having similar thoughts.  I'm Italian, and can easily pass for Mexican.  I got a 164, so I'm not quite as dumb as a lot of the URMs out there who get into great schools and get great scholarships.  I take it they don't check up.  If they googled the high school I attended they'd see it was one of the top 100 in the country, but I figure the if the black guy I went to school with can get a leg up, why can't I?  He got a 162 on his LSAT and he's going to UMich. It bears further investigation, for sure.  Jeez, I hope the SC don't strike down AA in the meantime.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: bamf on July 20, 2007, 11:34:24 AM
I'm not quite as dumb

are you sure about that?
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: mscmoreau on July 20, 2007, 11:37:15 AM
You're right, maybe I am dumb enough to pass for a URM.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: UFBoldAsLove on July 20, 2007, 11:52:08 AM
Seriously?

C'mon kids, lets not get Yanni going again.  ::)
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: jitcher on July 20, 2007, 04:16:12 PM
Quite simply, the possible consequence is that when get ready to take the bar exam and they look at your law school applications, they see that you lied about your race and don't let you sit for the bar.

Could you exploit the system? Maybe.  But checking the box on the application does little for you anyways unless you can tell how YOU being diverse will add to the law school. 

And for those who think it's all about skin color- I don't look Native American at first glance.  The indians in my tribe don't have dark skin to begin with, and my mom is really white.  So when you put those two together, you don't end up with what most people imagine as a Native American.  Does that change the fact that I grew up on a reservation?  Or the fact that I grew up watching my grandmother make pottery while my grandfather told me our tribe's traditional stories/myths?

I guess my point is- skin color doesn't determine what your heritage.  But YOU know what culture you identify with.  And if you have no life experiences to back up why you identify that culture, then law schools may not care.  But if you do lie, then the consequences could be grave.  When you sit for the bar, your answer to that question may be questioned.  And if you do lied on your application, then you may not be allowed to sit for the bar.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: HtownsFinest on July 20, 2007, 08:13:09 PM
OP

http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php/topic,27879.0.html (http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php/topic,27879.0.html)


im cursed- i have european american blood through and through, greek, and even though i am first generation here i get no special treatment like a black kid whose family has been here for 4 generations. pretty shitttty if you ask me. it all comes down to skin color i dont care what anyone else says. and its all total bull shite, racist and bigotry.

You are Greek-American. Greek is a national, not racial, category. Greeks are Caucasian/White. Your racial group, Caucasian/White, is over-represented in law school.

Cursed? Please explain why you are entitled to special treatment when your race dominates the law school population and the legal profession?

Please explain why Mexicans are entitled to special treatment. PLEASE EXPLAIN IT TO ME.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: HtownsFinest on July 20, 2007, 08:16:56 PM
"To be sure, even urm's that attend affluent high schools must often overcome racial prejudices and discriminations unlike their white counterparts."


Jews are easily identifiable by their big noses and curly hair, and they must overcome prejudices ("greedy jew", hate jews because "they killed jesus," no Jews allowed at Yale for the longest time, "money-grubber," etc.) I think they deserve a leg up, surely!
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on July 20, 2007, 08:51:21 PM
Why do Mexicans get special treatment?  They are White and Indian...Same as how someone who is White and Black would get considered URM.  The one drop rule.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: HtownsFinest on July 20, 2007, 08:57:01 PM
Why do Mexicans get special treatment?  They are White and Indian...Same as how someone who is White and Black would get considered URM.  The one drop rule.
Mexicans' Indian blood comes from Indians south of the border. What does that have to do with us? Why are we obligated to remedy wrongs done by the Spanish centuries ago? By that same logic Jews should benefit because they were persecuted in a foreign land.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Matthew on July 20, 2007, 09:00:31 PM
Why do Mexicans get special treatment?  They are White and Indian...Same as how someone who is White and Black would get considered URM.  The one drop rule.

But where do you get this one drop rule?  This is what I'm asking in my poll in the other-minority forum.  If someone is 3/16's black, does that mean they can put on applications that they are black?  What percentage constitutes an ethinicity?

Could someone who's 1/32 Latino mark that as an ethnicitiy?

Has anyone ever heard of a school asking for proof?
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: HtownsFinest on July 20, 2007, 09:06:04 PM
Jews are easily identifiable by their big noses and curly hair, and they must overcome prejudices ("greedy jew", hate jews because "they killed jesus," no Jews allowed at Yale for the longest time, "money-grubber," etc.) I think they deserve a leg up, surely!


lol. I do have a sense of humor so i guess i will take the above comment as sarcasm. i mean you cant really believe that this is the type of discrimination i was talking about.
Actually I'm dead serious d00d.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on July 20, 2007, 09:06:37 PM
The one drop rule was a joke, but derived from the fact that if you were "one drop" black during slavery, you would be considered black and consequently, a slave.  It has nothing to do with righting wrongs done in a foreign country, it has to do with the fact that they aren't "White".

By the way, I have no idea what exactly "White" means.  It appears as if the United States census considers Middle Easterners "White".  Those damn White Muslim terrorists!!!
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: HtownsFinest on July 20, 2007, 09:10:30 PM
The one drop rule was a joke, but derived from the fact that if you were "one drop" black during slavery, you would be considered black and consequently, a slave.  It has nothing to do with righting wrongs done in a foreign country, it has to do with the fact that they aren't "White".

By the way, I have no idea what exactly "White" means.  It appears as if the United States census considers Middle Easterners "White".  Those damn White Muslim terrorists!!!
We may see eye to eye on this issue (ultimately) but let me continue my method of questioning... Why does AA rely on skin color alone? Are there not other easily identifiable traits? What about asians? They aren't white.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Matthew on July 20, 2007, 09:17:41 PM
The one drop rule was a joke, but derived from the fact that if you were "one drop" black during slavery, you would be considered black and consequently, a slave.

It may have been a joke, but the question remains, is someone who is 1/4 African American, black enough to deserve special consideration? 1/8? 1/16?
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on July 20, 2007, 09:19:42 PM
I don't really know enough about AA to answer it's technical questions.  To me, it seems like a flawed system.  I think the problems AA tries to correct are more class based, than race based.  Same with the LSAT, I think if it discriminates, there is probably a higher correlation of Income VS LSAT Score than Race VS LSAT Score.

I must agree, Asians are not white, and the Japanese were put in internment camps in the U.S.  Like I said, I don't know all the technicals.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on July 20, 2007, 09:23:48 PM
The one drop rule was a joke, but derived from the fact that if you were "one drop" black during slavery, you would be considered black and consequently, a slave.

It may have been a joke, but the question remains, is someone who is 1/4 African American, black enough to deserve special consideration? 1/8? 1/16?


My daughter (in my profile pic) is half-black, half-white.  Her mother (my wife) and I both have Bachelor's Degrees.  I will have a J.D. by the time she is four.  My wife will have a Master's by the time she is three.  My daughter should not benefit from AA in any way.  My wife and I do joke from time to time about sending her to a Private school up until she is in high school, and then send her to an inner city school, all in effort to get a higher class rank.  (We are kidding.....somewhat)
 ;D
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Matthew on July 20, 2007, 09:24:41 PM
I don't really know enough about AA to answer it's technical questions.

The problem is, from what I can tell, that there is no "technical" answser.  According to the Ivey guide to law schools, when contacted, schools will refuse to say that one must be X% or anything like it.  If you say you are, they can count you among their minority population, and that's good enough for them.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on July 20, 2007, 09:36:56 PM
But to answer the original question.  Don't lie on your App.  Whether or not the school can "prove" anything, or whether they check, you are going into a profession where being honest is key.  Also, the bar examiner's have the ability to keep you from getting a license.  It is not an objective test they put you through, but a subjective one.  If they interpret you to be a liar, the burden of proof shifts to you in your appeal.  It's not worth it.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Matthew on July 20, 2007, 09:45:31 PM
But to answer the original question.  Don't lie on your App.  Whether or not the school can "prove" anything, or whether they check, you are going into a profession where being honest is key.  Also, the bar examiner's have the ability to keep you from getting a license.  It is not an objective test they put you through, but a subjective one.  If they interpret you to be a liar, the burden of proof shifts to you in your appeal.  It's not worth it.

I'm still not sure what the honest answer is.  If someone happens to be 1/16 of whatever minority race, is it dishonest to indicate that they are that race?

LSAC says: Your minority status is reported by you. Law schools consider your ethnic or racial status to be whatever you indicate on your LSAT registration forms.

So I don't really believe that you can actually lie on this question.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: HAL 9000 on July 20, 2007, 10:03:19 PM
URM policy does not address skin color, persecution, or national heritage, but simply the chronic underrepresentation of certain racial groups in law school and the legal profession relative to their proportion of the nation's population.

Under Represented Minority.

That is why Mexican-Americans and Native Americans and African Americans, and not Jews or Greeks or Northern Africans or Asians or Poor Whites, are accorded URM status. Diversity is an entirely separate, but entirely arguable, issue.

Twenty years ago, when women were applying to law school in far smaller numbers, women of all races and backgrounds -- including the white and privileged -- were accorded preference as members of an underrepresented group. When women achieved full repreentation, preference was no longer needed and consequently revoked.

Many of the same arguments against according preference to women are being repeated  now with reference to URM racial groups. The "She's stealing the place of a more qualified man at X Law School!" argument now seems ludicrous, but was a common one.


[irony]


As white law school applicants seem to have the most difficulty understanding the simple concept of underepresentation, we will have to form the generalization that all white people are stupid and thus unfit for law school.

[/irony]


As for lying. Think about the consequences of getting caught: not passing Chatacter and Fitness review; having offer of admission or student status revoked; law school debt but no law degree; or possibly a law degree but a permanent stain on your bar record making you less (or not) employable. Is the benefit really worth the risk? Are you sure your perception of the benefit of lying entirely accurate?


On the matter of percentage of racial heritage, there are no clear answers. Law schools proceed with the assumption that law school applicants have the ability and desire to use reason and restraint and possess a conscience. We think they are foolish.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: HtownsFinest on July 20, 2007, 10:17:12 PM
Why must the racial cross-section of top-tier law schools match that of the population? What are you a Marxist? What about individuals and individual achievements? Isn't that what the civil rights movement is all about? Seeing people as individuals and not as merely the member of some ethnic group?
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on July 20, 2007, 10:26:00 PM
HAL, maybe I am in fact stupid, but your post didn't have much in the way of substance.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on July 21, 2007, 07:19:30 PM
I'm just saying that as a daughter of a successful lawyer (hopefully :P) and a Biologist, my daughter should not have to rely on AA the way some do.  I'm not saying she won't benefit from it.  I'm sure she will check the box (if they even have a mixed box, I don't know).  What the school chooses to do with the information is their own prerogative.  I'm just speaking from an AA philosophy standpoint, that my daughter should not benefit from AA.

A friend of mine (who is black) went to St. Albans high school in Washington D.C.  The tuition his parents paid per year from 6th grade to 12th grade was like 16k.  The listed tuition is 24k per year.  He had financial aid or their equivalent.  He went to Duke for undergrad, and now goes to Georgetown for law school.  I cannot find any possible argument that would suffice for his needing the assistance of AA.  If he had low LSAT scores coming from a St. Albans/Duke education, then he's an idiot.  I aspire to put my daughter through a similar education program.  If she cannot compete with other students on the SAT, then she should not go to a top tier school.

I think quite possibly that I should have benefited from AA to some degree.  My mother was 16 when I was born, and my dad was 17.  Both of my parents quit high school and their paths then diverged. My mother has been in prison most of my life.  My dad, after working as a surveyor went to junior college, transferred to University of Houston, and then attended law school at American University.  He didn't graduate law school until I was 14.  I lived with my grandparents until I was 11, then with my father until I was 16, and then I moved back in with my grandparents, who were relatively poor (grandmother worked at a gas station, grandfather was a dispatcher for a trucking company).  I never really benefited from my father's income, because he was still paying back student loans by the time I moved back in with my grandparents.  The sole benefit from my father was that I got to see him in law school.  I discovered that I wanted to be a lawyer, by watching him.  (This was a huge benefit mentally.)

I just think that AA is a system that is too black and white (no pun intended).  I think there are too many extenuating circumstances that the admissions office will not take into consideration.  My friend should not benefit from AA.  My situation is somewhat arguable.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on July 22, 2007, 09:01:54 AM
Well, my own personal views are that affirmative action should be severely limited in scope.  I think it should be limited to those who can establish a documented financial disadvantage.  The use of affirmative action should be limited to once per life.  Perhaps it should only be used in college admission.  The big problem is that inner city schools cannot compete with the "suburban" schools.  There are definitely exceptions to every rule (dumb kids in suburbs, smart kids in inner city schools), but I think I've stated what the rule tends to be.

No one race is smarter than the other, that is absolutely a valid point.  However, I think the key to success is exposure.  If I would not have been exposed to my dad's law school experience, I can assure you I wouldn't be going to law school.  I'd likely have followed the plight of my mother.  My grandparents are a prime example.  As much as I love them, they don't know a thing about raising a productive member of society.  They worked hard all their lives, but of their 6 children, 5 have spent time in prison (or are currently in prison) and the other is a cop (hilarious isn't it). 

Reiterating my point, I think exposure is the key to success.  It is definitely difficult growing up when everyone around you thinks it is cool to be dumb.  This is exactly what it was like when I was in the D.C. public school system.  It is difficult as a child to choose isolation and education, over popularity and ignorance.  That being said, I often tell people who ask me about my education (biology major, chemistry minor in undergrad) and whether or not it was "hard".  To which I respond: "not nearly as hard as working for 8 bucks an hour".  I mean, I get to sit in the air conditioner all day long, and listen to esteemed professors talk about the things they probably love.  I didn't go to a prestigious undergrad university (Texas Southern University) and I'm not going to a prestigious law school (University of Houston), but I enjoy my life, and consider myself to be successful. 

It is a serious undertaking to reshaping the thoughts that pervade the minds of inner-city youth.  A resistant (rap, though not all forms) culture does not assist in the process.  It's kind of hard to get a high verbal SAT score when other kids make fun of you for talking "white".

Another issue is the lack of guidance you receive in the inner-city schools.  My wife graduated number 6 in her high school class, and attended Texas Southern University.  That is a f*ing travesty.  She scored an 1170 on the SAT, which is not a particularly high score.  But either way, her high school rank would have gotten her automatically accepted to the University of Texas.  The lack of provided guidance, is repulsive.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: LeveragedSellout on July 22, 2007, 09:29:31 AM
i find it absurd, and somewhat amusing, that people are so riled up about a system that applies to such a miniscule number of applicants. seriously, if you were rejected by a school and you're a non-urm, it is not likely that it was because some urm took your spot.

aa provides a viable excuse for people to justify and ignore their own inadequacies
   
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on July 22, 2007, 09:49:05 AM
Talib, who exactly are you referring to?  I don't recall seeing many people complaining that their spots were taken by minorities.  That being said, if you have read the above posts, do you think my friend (from St. Albans/Georgetown) needs further assistance from AA?  Or what about my daughter (1/2 white, 1/2 black) with two parents with graduate degrees?  Or do you agree with me that AA should be limited to the people who need it?
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on July 22, 2007, 09:56:45 AM
Also, do you really think that someone who has finished college, finished law school, and is now looking for a job as an attorney needs further assistance from AA?  I mean, seriously, shouldn't the assistance be to some kid whose SAT score was a little lower than someone else's, but has demonstratively worked his ass off?

Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: queencruella on July 22, 2007, 10:16:33 AM
Yeah that's a good question.  If everything else is equal in the two candidates application, the caucasian would get a slightly better chance.  It's just that the average LSAT score for asians is higher than caucasians (seems that way for all standardized test)...I will try to find the link and post it.  I honestly don't know why the averages are different here.  Anyways, law schools try to maintain certain ratios between all minorities, so what ends up happening is you end up competing against your own race.  For something very anecdotal - Here is something from wikipedia that shows SAT scores (it's almost 10 years old though) 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1995-SAT-Income2.png


I seriously doubt it. I have two Asian friends who had middling stats and ended up not only getting into those schools but getting large scholarships. At worst, I think Asians get lumped in with caucasians.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: queencruella on July 22, 2007, 10:38:49 AM
It's possible that your two asisan friends had something stellar about their application.  This is not a blanket statement that every Asian is at a disadvantage 100% of the time.  Maybe they had an awesome PS or extraordinary soft factors.  I'm just saying that the average scores for Asians are higher than other races, which will tend to hurt rather than help an asian candidate, as the Asian candidate will be compared to the rest of the Asian pool in the respective law school. Just as African American admits are not compared to the average caucasian, but rather the average African American applicant - the same thing goes with Asians.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't know why any school would say no to upping their overall percentage of minorities while keeping up their median LSAT score as well.

I'm not basing my conclusion solely on my two friends either. There are plenty of schools that quite simply lack minorities generally and being Asian is not going to hurt you one bit in those situations.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: queencruella on July 22, 2007, 11:06:29 AM
I don't think diversity is achieved by having a certain % be a minority as the sole criteria.....I'm sure everyone can agree that 50% White and 50% Asian would NOT be a diverse student population LOL....

Lots of schools are in areas that are not diverse at all. If they took minorities based on the overall population of the surrounding area they'd have 5% minorities. It's far better for a school to have 15% minorities with a 10% Asian population than a 5% minority class that represented the area makeup.

I went to a magnet program in high school that was put at a certain school to bring UP the amount of white people at the school and even that program still had a very high percentage of Asians.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on July 22, 2007, 11:10:42 AM
I think there are many, many factors that go into admitting students.

GPA
LSAT
PS
Work Experience
Difficulty of Major
Extracurriculars
Any addendum to the app

I'm sure that I had relatively low scores compared to the average "white" student (3.33 GPA, 157 LSAT).  Interestingly enough, I attended a Historically Black University (Texas Southern).  I elected not to answer the questions regarding race.  It is quite possible that the schools I was accepted to (Houston, Miami, Arkansas, Texas Tech, South Texas, Oklahoma) were impressed by the other factors in my application, including the fact that I had the highest LSAT score by a student at my university in 3 years.  Or, they may have assumed that I was a minority since I attended Texas Southern.  I'd be interested in finding this info out.  

I didn't lie on the applications, I was just selective about the optional information that I could have provided.  I chose not to put the information regarding my race.  On the apps that optionally asked for my parents information, I chose to put the fact that my mother was incarcerated.  I chose NOT to put the information regarding my dad being a lawyer.  
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on July 22, 2007, 11:15:09 AM
I went to a magnet program in high school that was put at a certain school to bring UP the amount of white people at the school and even that program still had a very high percentage of Asians.

That's funny...I went to a school where I was 1 of 3 non-black students.  I also went to a school (in Japan) where I was the only non-Japanese student.  Then, I chose to go to a historically black university for undergrad. 

I am going to Univ. of Houston in the fall (73% white).  I may experience "culture shock!"
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: queencruella on July 22, 2007, 11:37:45 AM
I went to a magnet program in high school that was put at a certain school to bring UP the amount of white people at the school and even that program still had a very high percentage of Asians.

That's funny...I went to a school where I was 1 of 3 non-black students.  I also went to a school (in Japan) where I was the only non-Japanese student.  Then, I chose to go to a historically black university for undergrad. 

I am going to Univ. of Houston in the fall (73% white).  I may experience "culture shock!"

Were you super popular in Japan? I worked in a Japanese school for 2 years and we had an American exchange student who was treated like a rockstar. Girls literally swooned when he walked into the room. Needless to say he loved it.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on July 22, 2007, 11:52:09 AM
I'm popular everywhere I go!  ;D

Kidding aside, yes I did receive a lot of attention.  I lived in Kyoto, so there were quite a few tourists.  However, when I stayed for a few weeks in Oita, a much smaller city, and definitely not a center of tourism, I received MUCH more attention.  In fact, a small boy ran up and touched me while I was on my bicycle.  It startled me, and I actually fell off the bike.  Hilarious! 
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: queencruella on July 22, 2007, 11:55:52 AM
I'm popular everywhere I go!  ;D

Kidding aside, yes I did receive a lot of attention.  I lived in Kyoto, so there were quite a few tourists.  However, when I stayed for a few weeks in Oita, a much smaller city, and definitely not a center of tourism, I received MUCH more attention.  In fact, a small boy ran up and touched me while I was on my bicycle.  It startled me, and I actually fell off the bike.  Hilarious! 

Once I was waiting at my bus stop and one little girl who walked by me everyday was staring and ran into a telephone pole. I had been expecting this for months so it made my day. Luckily the little girl was equally amused. I also went to visit friends on a small island and went to a local sports competition for kids. One two-year-old there kept running up to me and touching me every few minutes. It was so adorable.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on July 22, 2007, 12:02:37 PM
That is awesome!  Japan was a great experience.  I lived there for a year with my dad.  He was teaching English in the JET program for two years before he went to law school.  I moved in with him when he started law school.  After he finished, he worked for a legal unit at Ritsumeikan University in Kyoto.  Hence, my reasons for living in Kyoto.  I attended an all-Japanese school, which really screwed my grades up (my classes were in Japanese, except English class, I made an 'A' in that), but taught me a lot about life, and myself. 
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: saradsun on July 22, 2007, 01:53:09 PM


My daughter (in my profile pic) is half-black, half-white.  Her mother (my wife) and I both have Bachelor's Degrees.  I will have a J.D. by the time she is four.  My wife will have a Master's by the time she is three.  My daughter should not benefit from AA in any way.  My wife and I do joke from time to time about sending her to a Private school up until she is in high school, and then send her to an inner city school, all in effort to get a higher class rank.  (We are kidding.....somewhat)
 ;D

With all due respect, you've been raising a biracial child for 4 years. You have NO idea what racism they may encounter in the next 14 years which may impact their ability to fairly compete in the educational world.

I've been raising biracial children for 16 years now. And they identify as black, because here in rural nebraska they sure as hell aren't white. For many years I encouraged them to identify as biracial. But to them, its very clear they aren't white, and therefore MUST be black.

So just consider, your opinions on your child's status may very well change in the next several years, especially as they may very well self-identify differently than you expect.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on July 22, 2007, 02:22:55 PM


My daughter (in my profile pic) is half-black, half-white.  Her mother (my wife) and I both have Bachelor's Degrees.  I will have a J.D. by the time she is four.  My wife will have a Master's by the time she is three.  My daughter should not benefit from AA in any way.  My wife and I do joke from time to time about sending her to a Private school up until she is in high school, and then send her to an inner city school, all in effort to get a higher class rank.  (We are kidding.....somewhat)
 ;D

With all due respect, you've been raising a biracial child for 4 years. You have NO idea what racism they may encounter in the next 14 years which may impact their ability to fairly compete in the educational world.

I've been raising biracial children for 16 years now. And they identify as black, because here in rural nebraska they sure as hell aren't white. For many years I encouraged them to identify as biracial. But to them, its very clear they aren't white, and therefore MUST be black.

So just consider, your opinions on your child's status may very well change in the next several years, especially as they may very well self-identify differently than you expect.

No, I've only been raising a bi-racial child for 1 year.  My opinions might very well change.  What I think is more likely to change in 14 years, is the box she needs to check.  I think it is going to be less of an issue 14 years from now, and with my being in Houston, it is quite likely that even if she were white, she would be a minority (in Houston.)

It's not her skin color that is going to give her an advantage, it is the education level of her parents (and my good looks.)  So what she encounters racism?  I've encountered it too.  It is something that you do not tolerate, and do not teach, but it does occur.  I cannot prevent it.  I can only teach her how to respond to it.  The same as when my wife and I go out to eat and people stare at us.  So what?  The same as when I am at school and people make comments to me saying that I should go to a "white" school and leave my "black" school.  The same as when I am walking through the projects on my way to school and I get a gun put to my head and rocks thrown at me (two different instances, not simultaneously) for some reason (I'm guessing because I am white, though I may be wrong.)  The same as when I lived in Japan, and some of the kids told me essentially to "go back to America".

My point is....so what?  It happens, and you deal with it.  Do I wish I could have killed the guy who pulled the gun on me?  Damn right!  Do I wish I could have killed the 4 teenagers that were throwing rocks at me?  Damn right!  But I knew that I couldn't afford a lawyer (my father is not a criminal lawyer), and that I could not afford to get arrested, and lose a future legal career over some moron who is going to do nothing with his life.

But at this point, I still hold to my belief that AA shouldn't benefit the "have's", but the "have-not's."

By the way, should "have's" and "have-not's" contain an apostrophe?
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on July 22, 2007, 02:36:59 PM
Thanks!  :D ;D

I was a science major, often we just make words up, so you have to excuse my inquiries into grammatical rules.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: saradsun on July 22, 2007, 02:43:55 PM
But at this point, I still hold to my belief that AA shouldn't benefit the "have's", but the "have-not's."



While I don't disagree in general with this, I'm not sure how you can fairly differentiate between these. In some cases its easy. Rich URM at private school vs poor URM at public failing school. However, there are going to be many cases that fall in between. So skin color or self-identity of URM status becomes the de facto standard simply because its too difficult or impossible to fairly determine other factors that might more clearly represent the desired URM.

Sorry I drew incorrect conclusions as to the time you've spent parenting a biracial child.

apostrophes indicate possessive or contractions and haves and have-nots are neither. So I'd say, no apostrophes (though I misuse apostrophes and ellipses all the time myself).
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on July 22, 2007, 02:53:39 PM
But how long do you think people should benefit from AA?  Undergrad admissions?  Law School admissions?  First job?  Subsequent jobs?  Social Security?  Ok....the last one was a joke...I don't think any of us are going to get SS.

They do sort of have a way for people to claim AA on apps...the application addendums.  Perhaps everyone that wants to receive benefit from AA should have to write an addendum and their subsequent reasoning.  They could limit the number of words of the addendum for time constraint purposes, and if the reasoning is solely based on race they could disregard it.  What do you guys (and girls) think?
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on July 22, 2007, 02:58:47 PM
apostrophize- an awesome word!

What about apostrophotize?
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: queencruella on July 22, 2007, 03:16:33 PM
Thanks!  :D ;D

I was a science major, often we just make words up, so you have to excuse my inquiries into grammatical rules.

I'm not even sure if my way is right.  Usually people apostrophize (history majors can make up words too) plural acronyms.  For example, I'm an RA, and most people say RA's, but I say RAs.  And for grades, I say As, Bs, Cs, etc.  Not A's, B's, C's.

The apostrophe should stick to possessives and contractions unless you're pluralizing a single letter- then you should use an apostrophe.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: saradsun on July 22, 2007, 06:24:14 PM
AA is not solely intended to benefit the specific student who is accepted. You can argue that the more URM minorities that end up being doctors/lawyers/other professionals, the better the prospects for URM in the future.

If you grow up in a black neighborhood and the only people you see in professional positions are all white, it becomes hard to pictures yourself in that profession in a similar way to the doll study that took place in the 40's and 50's and was repeated a few years ago. Children grow up absorbing the cultural messages about race and that affects how they see themselves and others of their race. So when that URM minority goes to law school or medical school he or she not only benefits personally from AA, they are now "repaying" it by showing others of their URM that it can, and is, done.

So AA isn't just about Black Student A who gets into a good uni, just like a White Student B, and somehow that supposedly wipes clean all the cultural baggage of race? I don't think so.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on July 22, 2007, 07:41:00 PM
Well, I think a reasonable argument could be made suggesting that Student B was likely to have a lower GPA than some of his classmates at a Duke, or a Harvard, just because of the talent level of some of his classmates.  That being said, at some point, Student B's credentials should speak for themselves, and not carry the extra benefits of AA.  Just graduating for a Duke or Harvard carries great benefits in itself.

The private schools are not required to admit certain numbers of minority students, so perhaps they provide weak examples.

But in response to saradsun, I don't think the goal of AA is to relieve the cultural baggage of race.  In fact, AA is not entirely a race-based program.  Women often benefit from AA, notwithstanding race.

Where else in life do programs like this exist (serious question, not rhetorical)?  I don't think I can get into the NFL by being a little bit slower than other receivers, based on a lack of white receivers on a certain team (assuming there was a lack of white receivers.)  Sports is a great example of how the BEST candidates get the jobs, regardless of race.  They do discriminate on the basis of age in many sports, however (another topic in itself.)

But let's add or delete substance from my idea that admissions switch to a style where they consider extenuating circumstances solely on an optional addendum.  What if they got rid of the SAT's and started having interviews?  Seems like that might even the playing fields.  What do you think? 
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on July 22, 2007, 08:12:16 PM
If you go to Boston College, then he was originally referring to Baylor University.  :P
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on July 22, 2007, 08:41:33 PM
Grad studies in musicology?  Are you studying Prince?  LAME! :P

Does BU have a better lacrosse team than Duke?  EXTRA LAME!  :P
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on July 22, 2007, 09:12:02 PM
Well, my football team hasn't one in about a decade....at least we are consistent!  :P
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: TheJudge on July 24, 2007, 04:53:54 PM
Check the box.

Enjoy your free 8 lsat points, you lucky bastid!
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: HtownsFinest on July 25, 2007, 11:32:43 PM
sc3pt0r is the voice of reason in this thread, and I admire his story and viewpoints.

Saradsun, I don't think you understood cjrosina's point on the previous page.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on July 26, 2007, 12:09:35 AM
Htownsfinest, thank you for the kind words.  Now if everyone else would admire my viewpoints, I might get elected President!

It is quite pleasing to me that a discussion board like this exists.  Too often discussion boards are bogged down by people making ridiculous comments, and the discussion tend to evolve into basic name-calling.  Contrastingly, our discussions tend to be civilized, and even though I win all the arguments, the insight gained from these discussions is quite valuable.

In a few years, most of us are going to be lawyers.  We are going to have an immense influence on lives.  We should not take these societal burdens lightly.  These discussion boards are a way to express our different viewpoints, and to gain more information about the burdens we will shoulder.

The issues regarding education have always been intriguing to me.  Intertwined with the issue of AA, a particularly fertile ground for disagreement arises.

I have tried brainstorming the issue, and suggesting alternatives to the application process, that might provide for a legitimately fairer system for the disadvantages, based more on class than on race.  I understand that for the black race, there tends to be a very high correlation between race and disadvantage.  I also understand that this is truly an issue that can be overcome with hard-work.  Hard-work is a quality that is first instilled by parents.  This quality is then heavily influenced by societal pressures when you begin your venture into society.  Parents need to provide a solid foundation for this quality, but we as a society need to ensure that this foundation is not destroyed by the other members of society.

Given our education levels, everyone on this board has the responsibility to every child in America to ensure that we will protect that foundation.  Let's advance our society.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: saradsun on July 26, 2007, 09:09:06 AM
Saradsun, I don't think you understood cjrosina's point on the previous page.

I understood the point. I just disagree that things are now "equal" once an URM gets into a good university.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on July 26, 2007, 11:17:42 AM
Cjrosina, I wholeheartedly agree with you.

I've often said that there is less room for error for poor kids.  If we get caught with drugs, we lose financial aid, and subsequently, nd education.  If that happens to a kid from a wealthier family, it may not be as debilitating.

But so what, you have to mature faster?  Once you get to college, you learn quickly what it takes to make an 'A' in a class.  You realize that you might need to spend 30-40 hours studying for a particular test, but another person only needs to put in 20.  So what, make the 'A'.

At that point, everything is equal.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: juliemccoy on July 26, 2007, 11:19:20 AM
Interviews.. addendums... all great ideas to replace checking off that little box. But at the end of the day, AA is still AA. Even if there is no box to check off on your application, the school is still checking it off on theirs. Those addendums just slow down the process.

I'm not an AA fan, but I get why it's there. Until there's a reasonably equal number of those classifed as URM in white collar jobs like business, science and law, AA will exist. As another poster mentioned, it's hard to picture yourself doing something when it isn't the norm for "your people" to take on those kinds of roles. AA will continue to be hardest "soft factor" in admissions decisions for that reason.

I have a Jewish friend who will reject clothing on the basis of it looking "too goy-ish," too Gentile, on her. It's against her social norms. That's a silly example, but you get the idea. Select Whites, Asians and East Indians may be disadvantaged, but as a majority, you still have plenty of role models to look toward. Blacks and Native Americans don't have as many of these examples. The numbers are growing, but they still have a ways to go.

And no offense intended: I feel Hispanics have quickly become the over-represented majority in the US in the last several years, so I don't quite understand why Hispanics receive AA, but I suppose it has something to do with establishing role models and social norms, as well. I think this group will probably be taken off of the AA list before the others. We've made significant accomodations (IE: bi-lingual voting ballots and government literature) and there are a great number of respected government dignitaries and professionals (not to mention celebrities) of Hispanic descent. These people have earned great respect not only within the Hispanic Community, but in throughout the general population. Thoughts on Hispanic AA?
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on July 26, 2007, 11:25:20 AM
It's probably because there are less Hispanics than Blacks in college.  From my understanding, the Hispanic graduation rates are WAY lower than that of Black graduation rates.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: c0in on August 03, 2007, 01:28:38 AM
My mom is part Creek Indian and part African American but she looks more like a Native American. When she went to college she always checked the "other" box under race. My dad was part African American and Part Cherokee/Chickasaw Indian (he looked black) and always checked the "Black/African" box.

Sometimes I check "Other" and sometimes I check "Black/African." Mainly it depends upon what you want to be classified as, but as for outright lying about your race? It's shady, but insofar as I know it's a decision you can make and deal with the consequences if any.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: wellpreserved on August 05, 2007, 08:37:44 PM
Interesting comments here.

All I know is I do not know of too many white people who would willingly trade URM status for the privledge of being white in America. I mean if someone IS willing and knows of a way to do the switch (and I get to keep my bootie and love of soul food) I'd be interested in discussing a trade. If being a URMs have it so good and so many white people are getting the shaft why don't I see more white people self-identifying as something other than white? I've never heard of it happening. Granted, I've taken no scientific poll. If you guys know of someone or some kind of research on the matter I'd be interested.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on August 05, 2007, 08:59:35 PM
What else could a white person self identify as?  I didn't check any box.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: wellpreserved on August 05, 2007, 10:05:14 PM
Interesting comments here.

All I know is I do not know of too many white people who would willingly trade URM status for the privledge of being white in America. I mean if someone IS willing and knows of a way to do the switch (and I get to keep my bootie and love of soul food) I'd be interested in discussing a trade. If being a URMs have it so good and so many white people are getting the shaft why don't I see more white people self-identifying as something other than white? I've never heard of it happening. Granted, I've taken no scientific poll. If you guys know of someone or some kind of research on the matter I'd be interested.

I see this as silly logic.  I don't think many white people are saying that because of AA, URMs have it so good. However, it reminded me of a Chris Rock bit...

"There's not a single white person in the audience tonight who would trade places with me. And I'm rich!"

My point exactly. This whole conversation is always rooted in silly logic to me. How minorities recieve both preferential treatment AND racism is dead is always a funny bit of sociology. The OP's original assertion is that the benefits of being considered a URM outweighed the potentially devestating consequences of lying about being a URM. That's what's silly. And pretty funny. Like it's that good to be one. *shrug*

I don't really care. I divested myself of such craziness years ago.

and it's a TOTAL CR rip-off! LOL  That's one of the best lines ever delivered.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: ilsox7 on August 05, 2007, 10:35:02 PM

 The OP's original assertion is that the benefits of being considered a URM outweighed the potentially devestating consequences of lying about being a URM. That's what's silly. And pretty funny. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How is that silly/funny?  You are telling me that checking a box saying that you are a URM isn't worth it - when that leads thousands of dollars in scholarships and admittance into schools for which you have no chance of getting accepted to otherwise?  How is it not worth it to save hundreds of thousands of dollars and/or get accepted to higher ranked schools and have better job oppurtunities?  Especially when noone can really prove what race you are.  I don't know if they(law schools) even care.  I think they just want the ability to report that a certain % of people are URMs.  I doubt they do a physical "skin count" of different minorities to see if the balance is really there. 

State Bar Associations do extensive background checks.  Part of that check is to review your law school application.  There is probably a good chance they'd discover lying about race.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Matthew on August 05, 2007, 10:45:45 PM

 The OP's original assertion is that the benefits of being considered a URM outweighed the potentially devestating consequences of lying about being a URM. That's what's silly. And pretty funny. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How is that silly/funny?  You are telling me that checking a box saying that you are a URM isn't worth it - when that leads thousands of dollars in scholarships and admittance into schools for which you have no chance of getting accepted to otherwise?  How is it not worth it to save hundreds of thousands of dollars and/or get accepted to higher ranked schools and have better job oppurtunities?  Especially when noone can really prove what race you are.  I don't know if they(law schools) even care.  I think they just want the ability to report that a certain % of people are URMs.  I doubt they do a physical "skin count" of different minorities to see if the balance is really there. 

State Bar Associations do extensive background checks.  Part of that check is to review your law school application.  There is probably a good chance they'd discover lying about race.

What could they discover?  It's not like there's something out there that lists the "truth."

URM is self-identified and can really not be proven to be a lie.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: ilsox7 on August 05, 2007, 10:59:39 PM

 The OP's original assertion is that the benefits of being considered a URM outweighed the potentially devestating consequences of lying about being a URM. That's what's silly. And pretty funny. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How is that silly/funny?  You are telling me that checking a box saying that you are a URM isn't worth it - when that leads thousands of dollars in scholarships and admittance into schools for which you have no chance of getting accepted to otherwise?  How is it not worth it to save hundreds of thousands of dollars and/or get accepted to higher ranked schools and have better job oppurtunities?  Especially when noone can really prove what race you are.  I don't know if they(law schools) even care.  I think they just want the ability to report that a certain % of people are URMs.  I doubt they do a physical "skin count" of different minorities to see if the balance is really there. 

State Bar Associations do extensive background checks.  Part of that check is to review your law school application.  There is probably a good chance they'd discover lying about race.

What could they discover?  It's not like there's something out there that lists the "truth."

URM is self-identified and can really not be proven to be a lie.

Just wait until you go through the background checks some State Bars put applicants through.  It is absolutely insane the type of information they request and dig up.  I would not put it past them at all to ask for solid proof that someone is part of the URM group they claim.  Lying on the law school application is a fairly major offense.  I have several friends who misread the question about being convicted of a crime (school said speeding tickets had to be disclosed) and answered no.  When they realized this during 1L review of applications, the school put them in front of a disciplinary review panel and a letter was put into their law school file, which goes to the State Bar, saying the student was dishonest on their application.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Matthew on August 05, 2007, 11:33:51 PM
You keep talking about these documented issues.  Your race is not documented, and there's no way to provide "solid proof" of URM statuses.  Even the administrators of genetic tests would tell you that such tests a merely probable and do not prove anything.

How would someone prover they are 1/8 black or 1/4 hispanic?  The simple answer is that they can't, and the C&F review would have no way of proving dishonesty.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: ilsox7 on August 05, 2007, 11:38:56 PM
You keep talking about these documented issues.  Your race is not documented, and there's no way to provide "solid proof" of URM statuses.  Even the administrators of genetic tests would tell you that such tests a merely probable and do not prove anything.

How would someone prover they are 1/8 black or 1/4 hispanic?  The simple answer is that they can't, and the C&F review would have no way of proving dishonesty.

They can dig up (or make you dig up) other applications you've filled out in the past.  For instance, what did you put on your college application?  If you put white on the college application and now all of a sudden are claiming to be hispanic, there could be an issue. 
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Seventeen on August 05, 2007, 11:40:24 PM
I think, if you can't enter the legal profession ethically, how do you expect to practice ethically?

If you are white, you're white. I cannot imagine wondering my entire life if the only reason I got Xscholarship or got into Xschool was because I made a blatant LIE on my applications. Talk about the constant elephant in the room.

Horribly, I know of someone who falsly claimed URM, got into great schools w/ scholarships likely above where they should have gone, and even felt the need to dye their hair for the Admitted Student Weekends to cover their steps.

Isn't the theory... if you don't want to be caught in a lie, always tell the truth?

I think, if you feel you ARE a URM, and you can live with yourself every day, therefore not ever considering that it was a bad choice or misrepresentation, by all means... list URM. If you are not 100% sure you are being truthful, stay safe and claim only what you are.

Hmph.... ethics.  
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: wellpreserved on August 05, 2007, 11:41:50 PM
You keep talking about these documented issues.  Your race is not documented, and there's no way to provide "solid proof" of URM statuses.  Even the administrators of genetic tests would tell you that such tests a merely probable and do not prove anything.

How would someone prover they are 1/8 black or 1/4 hispanic?  The simple answer is that they can't, and the C&F review would have no way of proving dishonesty.

I'll bite only because I cannot sleep.

They wouldn't have to prove your genetic make-up to prove you were dishonest. They could ask for a record of how you have self-identified before law school. They could ask for specific reasons why you identify with a particular racial group. Hell, they could ask you to make a pot of boiled pigs feet if they wanted to. The point is no state BAR owes you your license so the burden of proof rests not with them but with you - the one seriously in debt for a law degree that is pretty useless if they find you of contemptable character, questionable morality or manipulative behavior bordering on criminal (accepting money under false pretenses) in any way, shape, form or fashion.

You would be the one who would have to provide proof to the contrary. If you think a few thousand bucks is worth that then more power to you.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Matthew on August 05, 2007, 11:45:39 PM
If you are white, you're white. I cannot imagine wondering my entire life if the only reason I got Xscholarship or got into Xschool was because I made a blatant LIE on my applications. Talk about the constant elephant in the room.

I would think in most cases, though I have no basis for this claim, that it would less a case of blatant lying and more a case of questionable.

For instance checking the box when you're 1/16 of that race or something like that.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Matthew on August 05, 2007, 11:49:32 PM
I'll bite only because I cannot sleep.

They wouldn't have to prove your genetic make-up to prove you were dishonest. They could ask for a record of how you have self-identified before law school. They could ask for specific reasons why you identify with a particular racial group. Hell, they could ask you to make a pot of boiled pigs feet if they wanted to. The point is no state BAR owes you your license so the burden of proof rests not with them but with you - the one seriously in debt for a law degree that is pretty useless if they find you of contemptable character, questionable morality or manipulative behavior bordering on criminal (accepting money under false pretenses) in any way, shape, form or fashion.

You would be the one who would have to provide proof to the contrary. If you think a few thousand bucks is worth that then more power to you.

There is no "record" of self identification.  And I think you're very wrong.  They'd have to have a reason above "he doesn't look very black to me" to show dishonesty.  They may be powerful, but they can't be that arbitrary.  They're still a body subject to law suits and appeals.

I also think you're overestimating the likelihood of such an inquiry.  Since there would be no contrary information in your file, I can't see them looking to hard into the issue to begin with.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: wellpreserved on August 05, 2007, 11:53:24 PM
No record? Really? In this day and age? I find it hard to believe that your undergrad record and how you identified on the SAT don't follow you to grad school and law school and so on. I know for a fact my race is listed on even my high school transcripts. So the rouse would have to start early.  And beyond the BAR I think that one's law school would take a special interest in the nordic looking hispanic who showed up and drained some of their valuable funds. While they may not call you a liar or demand you submit to a strand test I can see them pulling  you for review if not just out and out saying your all important scholarship - the one that precipitated this whole elaborate scheme for the get go - is no longer "available".

See, if one were a real URM they'd know that it's quite easy to be legally right and totally discriminatory at the same time. They don't have to offer a reason. Funding could just be "cut".
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: ilsox7 on August 05, 2007, 11:54:50 PM
I'll bite only because I cannot sleep.

They wouldn't have to prove your genetic make-up to prove you were dishonest. They could ask for a record of how you have self-identified before law school. They could ask for specific reasons why you identify with a particular racial group. Hell, they could ask you to make a pot of boiled pigs feet if they wanted to. The point is no state BAR owes you your license so the burden of proof rests not with them but with you - the one seriously in debt for a law degree that is pretty useless if they find you of contemptable character, questionable morality or manipulative behavior bordering on criminal (accepting money under false pretenses) in any way, shape, form or fashion.

You would be the one who would have to provide proof to the contrary. If you think a few thousand bucks is worth that then more power to you.

There is no "record" of self identification.  And I think you're very wrong.  They'd have to have a reason above "he doesn't look very black to me" to show dishonesty.  They may be powerful, but they can't be that arbitrary.  They're still a body subject to law suits and appeals.

I also think you're overestimating the likelihood of such an inquiry.  Since there would be no contrary information in your file, I can't see them looking to hard into the issue to begin with.

You vastly underestimate State Bar C&F.  Have you started or gone through the process of applying?  Do you know the type of information they ask you?  Do you know the types of background checks they run on each applicant?  The number of people from your past that they contact?
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: wellpreserved on August 05, 2007, 11:57:49 PM
I'll bite only because I cannot sleep.

They wouldn't have to prove your genetic make-up to prove you were dishonest. They could ask for a record of how you have self-identified before law school. They could ask for specific reasons why you identify with a particular racial group. Hell, they could ask you to make a pot of boiled pigs feet if they wanted to. The point is no state BAR owes you your license so the burden of proof rests not with them but with you - the one seriously in debt for a law degree that is pretty useless if they find you of contemptable character, questionable morality or manipulative behavior bordering on criminal (accepting money under false pretenses) in any way, shape, form or fashion.

You would be the one who would have to provide proof to the contrary. If you think a few thousand bucks is worth that then more power to you.

There is no "record" of self identification.  And I think you're very wrong.  They'd have to have a reason above "he doesn't look very black to me" to show dishonesty.  They may be powerful, but they can't be that arbitrary.  They're still a body subject to law suits and appeals.

I also think you're overestimating the likelihood of such an inquiry.  Since there would be no contrary information in your file, I can't see them looking to hard into the issue to begin with.

You vastly underestimate State Bar C&F.  Have you started or gone through the process of applying?  Do you know the type of information they ask you?  Do you know the types of background checks they run on each applicant?  The number of people from your past that they contact?

Or vastly overestimates one's ability to manipulate people. Or something.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Matthew on August 06, 2007, 12:00:05 AM
I'll bite only because I cannot sleep.

They wouldn't have to prove your genetic make-up to prove you were dishonest. They could ask for a record of how you have self-identified before law school. They could ask for specific reasons why you identify with a particular racial group. Hell, they could ask you to make a pot of boiled pigs feet if they wanted to. The point is no state BAR owes you your license so the burden of proof rests not with them but with you - the one seriously in debt for a law degree that is pretty useless if they find you of contemptable character, questionable morality or manipulative behavior bordering on criminal (accepting money under false pretenses) in any way, shape, form or fashion.

You would be the one who would have to provide proof to the contrary. If you think a few thousand bucks is worth that then more power to you.

There is no "record" of self identification.  And I think you're very wrong.  They'd have to have a reason above "he doesn't look very black to me" to show dishonesty.  They may be powerful, but they can't be that arbitrary.  They're still a body subject to law suits and appeals.

I also think you're overestimating the likelihood of such an inquiry.  Since there would be no contrary information in your file, I can't see them looking to hard into the issue to begin with.

You vastly underestimate State Bar C&F.  Have you started or gone through the process of applying?  Do you know the type of information they ask you?  Do you know the types of background checks they run on each applicant?  The number of people from your past that they contact?

No, but I was responsible for administrating Top Secret SCI clearances, which I'm pretty sure are a little more thorough than C&F, and I know what things get caught.  It doesn't matter how many documents or checks they get, they won't find any way to undermine your racial assertion, unless you actually talked about lying about it.

I haven't gone through it, but Anna Ivey has, as well as been the dean of the admissions office of one of the most prestigious law schools in the country, and she says, as despicable as it is, there are no consequences for lying about race on apps.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: ilsox7 on August 06, 2007, 12:09:01 AM
I guess I just do not understand how difficult it would be for the Bar Association to compare your college application to your law school application.  If you were white in college but hispanic in law school, you'd have some problems.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: wellpreserved on August 06, 2007, 12:10:59 AM
I guess I just do not understand how difficult it would be for the Bar Association to compare your college application to your law school application.  If you were white in college but hispanic in law school, you'd have some problems.

Me too. AND I don't think the problem starts with the BAR. I think your first problem would be with your law school. Again, they don't have to prove anything. They can just pull the money.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Matthew on August 06, 2007, 12:12:09 AM
I guess I just do not understand how difficult it would be for the Bar Association to compare your college application to your law school application.  If you were white in college but hispanic in law school, you'd have some problems.

They wouldn't have ones college app, they'd have their transcripts, which do not list race.

Many institutions collect race data but do not disseminate it, as they'll tell you, it's collected for statistical reporting only, and in many cases, is not even tied to the applicant.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: ilsox7 on August 06, 2007, 12:13:07 AM
I guess I just do not understand how difficult it would be for the Bar Association to compare your college application to your law school application.  If you were white in college but hispanic in law school, you'd have some problems.

Me too. AND I don't think the problem starts with the BAR. I think your first problem would be with your law school. Again, they don't have to prove anything. They can just pull the money.

I don't put much faith in law school administrators to actually go above and beyond their job to figure something out.  My experience with most of them has left me to believe the majority are fairly inept.  State Bar Associations, on the other hand, spend lots of time investigating their applicants.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on August 06, 2007, 12:13:11 AM
Not if you found out that your great-great-great-great-grandfather was from Spain and had blue eyes and blonde hair.

I think it's pretty sweet that I went to a historically black college for undergrad.  When I didn't identify as a particular race, I'm sure that the schools I applied to (most of them in Texas, probably familiar with my school) assumed that I wasn't white.  I mean, there aren't a whole lot of non-minorities at my school.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: ilsox7 on August 06, 2007, 12:14:49 AM
I guess I just do not understand how difficult it would be for the Bar Association to compare your college application to your law school application.  If you were white in college but hispanic in law school, you'd have some problems.

They wouldn't have ones college app, they'd have their transcripts, which do not list race.

Many institutions collect race data but do not disseminate it, as they'll tell you, it's collected for statistical reporting only, and in many cases, is not even tied to the applicant.

At least in the state I am in, our Bar asks for every college I've ever attended.  Given that it took them 14 months to complete their initial review of my application, I do not think it is even remotely out of the question that they have a copy of my college application. 
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: wellpreserved on August 06, 2007, 12:15:09 AM
I guess I just do not understand how difficult it would be for the Bar Association to compare your college application to your law school application.  If you were white in college but hispanic in law school, you'd have some problems.

They wouldn't have ones college app, they'd have their transcripts, which do not list race.

Many institutions collect race data but do not disseminate it, as they'll tell you, it's collected for statistical reporting only, and in many cases, is not even tied to the applicant.

Again, I just looked at my high school and college transcripts and both list my race and the race of my parents. Does that information not become apart of your official law school record? And is that record not used as the starting point for your BAR app?
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Matthew on August 06, 2007, 12:15:25 AM
I guess I just do not understand how difficult it would be for the Bar Association to compare your college application to your law school application.  If you were white in college but hispanic in law school, you'd have some problems.

Me too. AND I don't think the problem starts with the BAR. I think your first problem would be with your law school. Again, they don't have to prove anything. They can just pull the money.

Schools, as Ivey explains, don't want to know that you're lying.  It's too awkward to have a policy on it (What's black? 1/4? 1/8?) and they get to report you as a minority if you report yourself as one, so they don't really care to know.  There is no way for them to tactfully, or even effectively verify race, so they don't do it.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Matthew on August 06, 2007, 12:19:43 AM
I guess I just do not understand how difficult it would be for the Bar Association to compare your college application to your law school application.  If you were white in college but hispanic in law school, you'd have some problems.

They wouldn't have ones college app, they'd have their transcripts, which do not list race.

Many institutions collect race data but do not disseminate it, as they'll tell you, it's collected for statistical reporting only, and in many cases, is not even tied to the applicant.

Again, I just looked at my high school and college transcripts and both list my race and the race of my parents. Does that information not become apart of your official law school record? And is that record not used as the starting point for your BAR app?

I'm really surprised by that.  Neither my high school nor college transcripts list race.  My college transcript has my name, ID number, date of birth, and address, and that's it.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: wellpreserved on August 06, 2007, 12:20:23 AM
I guess I just do not understand how difficult it would be for the Bar Association to compare your college application to your law school application.  If you were white in college but hispanic in law school, you'd have some problems.

Me too. AND I don't think the problem starts with the BAR. I think your first problem would be with your law school. Again, they don't have to prove anything. They can just pull the money.

Schools, as Ivey explains, don't want to know that you're lying.  It's too awkward to have a policy on it (What's black? 1/4? 1/8?) and they get to report you as a minority if you report yourself as one, so they don't really care to know.  There is no way for them to tactfully, or even effectively verify race, so they don't do it.

I read the same passage in Ivey's book and I think we diverge on what is considered "proving". I maintain that nothing has to be proven. Neither does the reason for your funding being unavailable have to be stated. While I understand they do not ask for proof due to the very murky water that is race, I can also imagine enough questions by profs, other students, a pissy woman in financial aid would be enough for it to be called into question, just not being expressed to the student.

And what happens when you're asked to represent your program at minority days or fairs? Or asked to mentor other incoming minorities? Or asked how your member of an ethnic group affected your outlook on life and the law?

It seems to me there would be far too many opportunities that would demand one go into concoting an outright lie, one more verifiable and eventually so not worth it. It's not checking the box, it's the ongoing maintanence of the lie that could prove to be the problem. Not to mention the karma. Wouldn't want it to be me.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: wellpreserved on August 06, 2007, 12:22:20 AM
I guess I just do not understand how difficult it would be for the Bar Association to compare your college application to your law school application.  If you were white in college but hispanic in law school, you'd have some problems.

They wouldn't have ones college app, they'd have their transcripts, which do not list race.

Many institutions collect race data but do not disseminate it, as they'll tell you, it's collected for statistical reporting only, and in many cases, is not even tied to the applicant.

Again, I just looked at my high school and college transcripts and both list my race and the race of my parents. Does that information not become apart of your official law school record? And is that record not used as the starting point for your BAR app?

I'm really surprised by that.  Neither my high school nor college transcripts list race.  My college transcript has my name, ID number, date of birth, and address, and that's it.

Perhaps I am older than you - pre privacy laws - but it is most definately listed on them. I was a bit surprised too but saw it to be of little concern seeing as how I didn't lie about it. I'm in North CArolina if that makes a difference. Although I thought in the 70s and 80s it was standard to record such information as most states were legally mandated to maintain a racially diverse public school system. How else would they prove they were abiding by the law if race weren't being tracked? How would bussing have worked?
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Matthew on August 06, 2007, 12:27:29 AM
I guess I just do not understand how difficult it would be for the Bar Association to compare your college application to your law school application.  If you were white in college but hispanic in law school, you'd have some problems.

They wouldn't have ones college app, they'd have their transcripts, which do not list race.

Many institutions collect race data but do not disseminate it, as they'll tell you, it's collected for statistical reporting only, and in many cases, is not even tied to the applicant.

At least in the state I am in, our Bar asks for every college I've ever attended.  Given that it took them 14 months to complete their initial review of my application, I do not think it is even remotely out of the question that they have a copy of my college application. 
I just looked at my college's application and it doesn't even ask for race so I guess they have no official record to print.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: ilsox7 on August 06, 2007, 12:30:03 AM
I guess I just do not understand how difficult it would be for the Bar Association to compare your college application to your law school application.  If you were white in college but hispanic in law school, you'd have some problems.

They wouldn't have ones college app, they'd have their transcripts, which do not list race.

Many institutions collect race data but do not disseminate it, as they'll tell you, it's collected for statistical reporting only, and in many cases, is not even tied to the applicant.

At least in the state I am in, our Bar asks for every college I've ever attended.  Given that it took them 14 months to complete their initial review of my application, I do not think it is even remotely out of the question that they have a copy of my college application. 
I just looked at my college's application and it doesn't even ask for race so I guess they have no official record to print.

Well, then you just need to hope that any of your former bosses or references don't identify you as a non-URM when contacted by the State Bar.  I wouldn't want that hanging over my head for the rest of my life though if I got away with it.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Matthew on August 06, 2007, 12:31:21 AM
Neither does the reason for your funding being unavailable have to be stated. While I understand they do not ask for proof due to the very murky water that is race, I can also imagine enough questions by profs, other students, a pissy woman in financial aid would be enough for it to be called into question, just not being expressed to the student.

And what happens when you're asked to represent your program at minority days or fairs? Or asked to mentor other incoming minorities? Or asked how your member of an ethnic group affected your outlook on life and the law?

It seems to me there would be far too many opportunities that would demand one go into concoting an outright lie, one more verifiable and eventually so not worth it. It's not checking the box, it's the ongoing maintanence of the lie that could prove to be the problem. Not to mention the karma. Wouldn't want it to be me.


I don't think the majority of these people would know your race to begin with?

Do you really think a class roster says "John Smith...Black"?

And I also think you underestimate the ability of someone who'd lie on about their race to just say no to showing students around and stuff based on their race.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Matthew on August 06, 2007, 12:32:57 AM
Well, then you just need to hope that any of your former bosses or references don't identify you as a non-URM when contacted by the State Bar.  I wouldn't want that hanging over my head for the rest of my life though if I got away with it.

Well, I don't need to worry about it, because I'm not going to lie about my race.  This is a strictly theoretical discussion for me.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: ilsox7 on August 06, 2007, 12:36:02 AM
Well, then you just need to hope that any of your former bosses or references don't identify you as a non-URM when contacted by the State Bar.  I wouldn't want that hanging over my head for the rest of my life though if I got away with it.

Well, I don't need to worry about it, because I'm not going to lie about my race.  This is a strictly theoretical discussion for me.

That's good then.  I still contend that, while maybe not likely, it is certainly within the realm of realistic possibility that a person will get caught. 
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: wellpreserved on August 06, 2007, 12:38:52 AM
Neither does the reason for your funding being unavailable have to be stated. While I understand they do not ask for proof due to the very murky water that is race, I can also imagine enough questions by profs, other students, a pissy woman in financial aid would be enough for it to be called into question, just not being expressed to the student.

And what happens when you're asked to represent your program at minority days or fairs? Or asked to mentor other incoming minorities? Or asked how your member of an ethnic group affected your outlook on life and the law?

It seems to me there would be far too many opportunities that would demand one go into concoting an outright lie, one more verifiable and eventually so not worth it. It's not checking the box, it's the ongoing maintanence of the lie that could prove to be the problem. Not to mention the karma. Wouldn't want it to be me.


I don't think the majority of these people would know your race to begin with?

Do you really think a class roster says "John Smith...Black"?

And I also think you underestimate the ability of someone who'd lie on about their race to just say no to showing students around and stuff based on their race.

Well, hey, you give it a shot! I'd love to see the results. I think you may underestimate how seriously some people view such things and the amount of energy it takes to navigate those waters. You may also underestimate how deeply personal race is for people and to what lengths they'll go to sniff out a poseur. I've got anctedotal evidence for days about those who tried to pass in the other direction and myriad of systems that sought to undermine them doing so. I can't imagine it wouldn't work that way in reverse. Want to pass yourself off to the black or hispanic financial aid officer who has actually been a struggling URM or to the native american admissions director? Let me tell you, there are people who would make it their personal business to out you. And again no one has to prove anything. They need only cast doubt. And I'm willing to be money on someone doing just that. That's how race works underneath the surface in america.

It just seems that law school is challenging enough without simultaneously perpetuating a lie that could undermine your career. You spoke of being risk averse earlier. I think one would have to be more of a masochist or outright narcissist to go through with such a thing. They either want to ruin their lives or prove they can outsmart a system.

But, again, I totally reccommend it for some LSDer. In fact I encourage it and demand that they post frequently about it.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Matthew on August 06, 2007, 12:45:27 AM
Well, then you just need to hope that any of your former bosses or references don't identify you as a non-URM when contacted by the State Bar.  I wouldn't want that hanging over my head for the rest of my life though if I got away with it.

Well, I don't need to worry about it, because I'm not going to lie about my race.  This is a strictly theoretical discussion for me.

That's good then.  I still contend that, while maybe not likely, it is certainly within the realm of realistic possibility that a person will get caught. 

And I don't see it as a possibility, because I don't see there being a way for someone to get caught.  You can't prove or disprove race.

I also think if people did get caught, Ivey would know something about it.

But neither of us can really prove our theories either.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: ilsox7 on August 06, 2007, 12:48:07 AM
Well, then you just need to hope that any of your former bosses or references don't identify you as a non-URM when contacted by the State Bar.  I wouldn't want that hanging over my head for the rest of my life though if I got away with it.

Well, I don't need to worry about it, because I'm not going to lie about my race.  This is a strictly theoretical discussion for me.

That's good then.  I still contend that, while maybe not likely, it is certainly within the realm of realistic possibility that a person will get caught. 

And I don't see it as a possibility, because I don't see there being a way for someone to get caught.  You can't prove or disprove race.

I also think if people did get caught, Ivey would know something about it.

But neither of us can really prove our theories either.

If you've previously identified yourself as one race, but change it on your law school application, that's pretty damning evidence. 
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: MahlerGrooves on August 06, 2007, 08:10:15 AM
Anna Ivey also says that admissions officers frequent internet message boards and look for posts from their applicants...SO...it stands to reason that getting caught lying becomes easier if one discusses lying on an internet board.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on August 06, 2007, 08:33:22 AM
Ya, I'm sure that's true if they put their name, SS#, DOB, and the name of the school that they will be attending on the board.  But, who does that?  ???
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: ilsox7 on August 06, 2007, 08:40:53 AM
Ya, I'm sure that's true if they put their name, SS#, DOB, and the name of the school that they will be attending on the board.  But, who does that?  ???

That's not needed at all.  When I applied a few years ago, people posted enough identifying information to be outted.  In fact, at least one person was contacted by some of their schools due to posts on this board.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: wellpreserved on August 06, 2007, 08:56:03 AM
Ya, I'm sure that's true if they put their name, SS#, DOB, and the name of the school that they will be attending on the board.  But, who does that?  ???

That's not needed at all.  When I applied a few years ago, people posted enough identifying information to be outted.  In fact, at least one person was contacted by some of their schools due to posts on this board.

These folks are funny! LOL

We live in the age of big brother where 15 year olds can find your social online in a matter of minutes and people think no one could use that information in their law school or BAR process?

I guess that's the paranoia that comes with being an actual URM or just reading the newspaper or something.

They can use it and they would use it and they wouldn't be the only one. Disgruntled student peers would use it, an ex-girlfriend you pissed off would get wind of your grand scheme and out you or an aspiring investigative reporter in undergrad would make you his senior thesis or the lady in the cafeteria would think something ain't right and it would become a campus rumor or, or, or.

Risky, risky, risky for people who are spending ridiculous amounts of money to practice, um, what is that thing called againg? Oh, yeah, the LAW!

You don't get to be a skeevy lawyer until you actually become a lawyer.

Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Temporary Relief Assistant Trailer Park Supervisor on August 06, 2007, 09:35:39 AM
What about the following hypothetical situation: A white person checks the african american box on his or her application in order to get admitted a T14 school.  After the school of his/her choice has admitted the student, the student informs the school that they were looking over their on-line copy of the submitted application, and noticed that they checked the wrong box for race.  Would the school dare withdraw the offer of admission? 
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Temporary Relief Assistant Trailer Park Supervisor on August 06, 2007, 10:52:07 AM
What about the following hypothetical situation: A white person checks the african american box on his or her application in order to get admitted a T14 school.  After the school of his/her choice has admitted the student, the student informs the school that they were looking over their on-line copy of the submitted application, and noticed that they checked the wrong box for race.  Would the school dare withdraw the offer of admission? 

I thought about doing this.

You probably should have, seeing how now you're stuck at a TTT school.  ;D
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Matthew on August 07, 2007, 12:53:37 AM
This is my litmus test. If you considered yourself a URM before applying to law school then you should indicate that on your apps.

If you didn't, (or magically didn't think of yourself as a URM until applying to law school) chances are that you shouldn't identify yourself as a URM.

If there is any uncertainty check other and explain your unique situation so you can get the appropriate boost. It is disingenuous, to simply put say (fill in the blank) when your like 1/16th of that  (socially constructed) race.




But isn't that their fault for making you check one box?
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Temporary Relief Assistant Trailer Park Supervisor on August 07, 2007, 07:08:53 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/12/us/12genes.html?ex=1302494400&en=94e1fa50f8081d8e&ei=5090

This one person from the article is a f-ing idiot.  She used the gene test to pick the most overrepresented minority:

"Ashley Klett's younger sister marked the "Asian" box on her college applications this year, after the elder Ms. Klett, 20, took a DNA test that said she was 2 percent East Asian and 98 percent European.

Whether it mattered they do not know, but she did get into the college of her choice.

"And they gave her a scholarship," Ashley said."
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: TeresaPinfold on August 07, 2007, 03:03:44 PM
If someone found $100,000 in a parking lot and asked the person who lost it to claim it, I wouldn't lie to try to get the money, even if I had a good chance.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: ilsox7 on August 07, 2007, 04:51:33 PM
If someone found $100,000 in a parking lot and asked the person who lost it to claim it, I wouldn't lie to try to get the money, even if I had a good chance.


Some people have integrity, some do not.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on August 07, 2007, 05:33:46 PM
Those who do not, should not become lawyers.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on August 07, 2007, 07:32:04 PM
Damn Saints...
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Matthew on August 07, 2007, 09:40:49 PM


But isn't that their fault for making you check one box?


That is a false assumption they don't make you check one box. Generally, you can check more than one box (though most people don't) or check other. Here is my broader point though.

If you truly self-identify with a certain race feel free to check that box. However, if you are just trying to game the system,by virtue of the fact that your 1/16th (whatever race) then you shouldn't.

It is simply dishonest to traditional urm's and adcomms to represent yourself as a whole member of just one category when your 1/16th of that category.(this applies to individuals trying to game the system)

I just tried checking more than one box on the available applications for schools I'm applying to this coming cycle (Duke, Cornell, Notre Dame, and William & Mary) and not one of them lets you check more than 1 box.

People are talking about integrity, but "gaming" the system when they refuse to provide clear definitions or standard is not unethical.  What does it mean to identify with a race?  Does a 100% black person raised by a white family who was never (and I know this might be a stretch) discriminated against and comes from a privileged background identify with being black?  Or does a 25% black person raised in an impovershed household deserve this boost?

This check box application of diversity is BS to begin with, and there's nothing wrong with using it to your advantage.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: ilsox7 on August 07, 2007, 10:06:14 PM


But isn't that their fault for making you check one box?


That is a false assumption they don't make you check one box. Generally, you can check more than one box (though most people don't) or check other. Here is my broader point though.

If you truly self-identify with a certain race feel free to check that box. However, if you are just trying to game the system,by virtue of the fact that your 1/16th (whatever race) then you shouldn't.

It is simply dishonest to traditional urm's and adcomms to represent yourself as a whole member of just one category when your 1/16th of that category.(this applies to individuals trying to game the system)

I just tried checking more than one box on the available applications for schools I'm applying to this coming cycle (Duke, Cornell, Notre Dame, and William & Mary) and not one of them lets you check more than 1 box.

People are talking about integrity, but "gaming" the system when they refuse to provide clear definitions or standard is not unethical.  What does it mean to identify with a race?  Does a 100% black person raised by a white family who was never (and I know this might be a stretch) discriminated against and comes from a privileged background identify with being black?  Or does a 25% black person raised in an impovershed household deserve this boost?

This check box application of diversity is BS to begin with, and there's nothing wrong with using it to your advantage.

I thought this topic was started under the premise of someone checking a URM box when they knew they weren't a URM.  Of course if someone truly believes they are the URM of the box they check, it is not unethical.  But if you blatantly lie, it demonstrates a lack of integrity.  And in the end, those without integrity end up where they deserve to be.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Matthew on August 07, 2007, 10:20:16 PM
I thought this topic was started under the premise of someone checking a URM box when they knew they weren't a URM.  Of course if someone truly believes they are the URM of the box they check, it is not unethical.  But if you blatantly lie, it demonstrates a lack of integrity. 

It was, but my point is that there's a huge gray area between blatant lying and what the form is actually meant to solicit.

It may demonstrate a lack of integrity, but I think it would be difficult, if not impossible, for there to be repercussions, which is the subject of the thread.

And in the end, those without integrity end up where they deserve to be.

In Hell after a life as a multi-millionaire?
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: ilsox7 on August 07, 2007, 10:24:59 PM
I thought this topic was started under the premise of someone checking a URM box when they knew they weren't a URM.  Of course if someone truly believes they are the URM of the box they check, it is not unethical.  But if you blatantly lie, it demonstrates a lack of integrity.

It was, but my point is that there's a huge gray area between blatant lying and what the form is actually meant to solicit.

It may demonstrate a lack of integrity, but I think it would be difficult, if not impossible, for there to be repercussions, which is the subject of the thread.

And in the end, those without integrity end up where they deserve to be.

In Hell after a life as a multi-millionaire?

People who lie and steal generally are caught.  I could list plenty of examples from business, but eventually, the *&^% hits the fan.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Matthew on August 07, 2007, 10:32:18 PM
I thought this topic was started under the premise of someone checking a URM box when they knew they weren't a URM.  Of course if someone truly believes they are the URM of the box they check, it is not unethical.  But if you blatantly lie, it demonstrates a lack of integrity.

It was, but my point is that there's a huge gray area between blatant lying and what the form is actually meant to solicit.

It may demonstrate a lack of integrity, but I think it would be difficult, if not impossible, for there to be repercussions, which is the subject of the thread.

And in the end, those without integrity end up where they deserve to be.

In Hell after a life as a multi-millionaire?

People who lie and steal generally are caught.  I could list plenty of examples from business, but eventually, the sh*t hits the fan.

That's a preposterous statement in that it's impossible to verify in any way.  No matter how many people are caught, you have no idea how many aren't, and therefore can't say that they "generally are caught."

Even if this were true, arguing that it follows that lying about being a URM will be caught is a classic fallacy of division.  Just because it's generally true doesn't make it at all the case in this situation.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Matthew on August 07, 2007, 10:40:12 PM
The only requirement is that you  truly identify with that group or are a member of the group .

Maybe that's how you think it should be, but that's not a requirement at all.  Applications generally ask for "Ethnicity" or "Racial/Ethnic Description", not "With which ethnicity do you identify?"

Which brings us back to the question earlier of a white person adopted by a URM and raised in that culture but with none of their blood.  Your system seems to say that they would check the URM box, when that's not what the application asks for.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Matthew on August 07, 2007, 10:46:03 PM
They can still check other. and explain their situation.

But why choose other and lose your 8-10 point gain from checkng the box for URM status?
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: ilsox7 on August 07, 2007, 10:47:24 PM
I know of one white person who was raised in an hispanic household that checked the box for hispanic on their application.  For his entire story, look around LSD some.

As for everything else, this thread has devolved into theoretical bull about proving every person in the world is either a liar or not.  In reality, people who go about lying on a consistent basis in professional environments are caught.  The bottom line is that there are plenty of data points available about every single applicant to a State Bar that it is well within the realm of possibility that someone could be caught cold in a lie.  Does that mean they will be caught 100% of the time or even 25% of the time?  Not at all.  But if you do not believe that it is a realistic possibility, then you're quite naive.

Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on August 07, 2007, 10:54:28 PM
Hopefully, within the next 50 years, white people are surpassed as being the majority in America, and then we might get an 8-10 point boost.  Maybe, I'll just wait to take the LSAT again then... :D
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: wellpreserved on August 08, 2007, 09:04:26 AM
See Supreme Court Case Grutter vs Bollinger - The famous University of Michigan Law School AA case has lots of good charts that show a clear difference in admissions standards for URMs...also just look at lawschoolnumbers.com you will see that the only people admitted under certain index scores for many schools are URMs.... it is clearly a huge boost.

And, again, I totally suggest you go for it! Stick it to those URMs, get what's rightfully yours, flip a big eff you to the racial inequities so many majority Americans face everyday. Do it and then tell us every detail.

Summer TV sucks.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on August 08, 2007, 09:40:42 AM
AA doesn't make up for any inequality faced by a URM.  First, it assumes that the individual has faced any inequality by being an URM.  Second, it doesn't apply for all minorities.  Didn't/don't Asians face similar inequalities, i.e. internment/concentration camps?  Third, AA is still class-based.  The minorities from wealthier backgrounds, will take the positions that should have went to the poorer minorities.  I always give as an example my black friend who went to St. Albans (at 25k per year for grades K-12, Al Gore's son went here), and now attends Georgetown for undergrad.  Does anyone really think that he should receive 8-10 points for just being black?

What about obese people?  What about skinny people (like me, 6'2" 142 lbs)?  What about extraordinary ugly people?  Really short people (not midgets, just people under 5 feet tall)?  What about extra-tall people (7 ft. plus)?  What about past victims of heinous crimes?

Don't these people suffer from similar inequalities?  Why shouldn't they receive any extra points?
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on August 08, 2007, 12:13:54 PM
But honestly, I think the whole thing about affording a prep course is a sham.  Every year in college my Expected Family Contribution was 0.  I received a full Pell Grant annually, and student loans.

1500 bucks is a lot to dish out, but it is worth taking out a student loan out to take the prep course.  I honestly think that nearly everyone who wants to take the prep course, could do so.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on August 08, 2007, 01:01:32 PM
Now you are asserting that credit card companies provide equal opportunity in credit approval for minorities.  :D
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on August 08, 2007, 04:27:09 PM
University of Houston
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Diecisiete on August 08, 2007, 09:40:38 PM
Not too sure if this is a state or district thing, but I worked in a California school district where we kept records of every student, including their ethnicity. They were listed with a numerical code (700-white, 600-black, 500-hispanic, 400-asian, etc.) Every student that passed through our elementary, middle, or high school had a profile. I'm sure that if you were a bit suspect in your self-classification (and I'm not talking about the marginal "I can't tell what the heck he is" scenario) the bar could easily dig some of this up.

Also, whenever a minority student accepts an offer at a law school, one of the first people to hear about it are the student leaders of the certain group. Since every year the number of blacks or hispanics at a law school is between 0-15 (looking at NALP stats) each student receives a lot of attention. If you were clearly white as the fallen snow and your name went to the black law students group, I could only imagine the reaction when you show up to orientation. I heard of a student group in CA (at the undergraduate level) that called out someone in a scenario just like this and I'm pretty sure there was a stink at CLS about a female applicant who checked black but didn't look it. I'll try to find more info about it.

Finally, let us not underemphasize the importance schools place on your diversity statement and the effect your race has had in your life (in your PS for example) not to mention factors such as if you were a minority and the first one in your family to go to college, economic status, etc. It is here where you might find yourself in some trouble.   
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Diecisiete on August 08, 2007, 09:56:44 PM
Just checked: California birth certificate lists your race...fyi.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on August 08, 2007, 11:19:42 PM
I talked to the Bar Examiner's Office (Texas), and they said that they would request a copy of my law school application, and the addendum to the application where I disclosed the traffic tickets that I had received in my life.  They told me that I did not have to include a copy of the personal statement or the resume that I sent to the school.  Perhaps you could just not check any box, and just join the NAACP or a minority group of some sort, and just put in on your resume.  Also, you could, in your personal statement, talk about how you have overcome diversity.  They might make the incorrect assumption...yet you remained honest.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: queencruella on August 09, 2007, 06:21:26 AM
Not too sure if this is a state or district thing, but I worked in a California school district where we kept records of every student, including their ethnicity. They were listed with a numerical code (700-white, 600-black, 500-hispanic, 400-asian, etc.) Every student that passed through our elementary, middle, or high school had a profile. I'm sure that if you were a bit suspect in your self-classification (and I'm not talking about the marginal "I can't tell what the heck he is" scenario) the bar could easily dig some of this up.

Also, whenever a minority student accepts an offer at a law school, one of the first people to hear about it are the student leaders of the certain group. Since every year the number of blacks or hispanics at a law school is between 0-15 (looking at NALP stats) each student receives a lot of attention. If you were clearly white as the fallen snow and your name went to the black law students group, I could only imagine the reaction when you show up to orientation. I heard of a student group in CA (at the undergraduate level) that called out someone in a scenario just like this and I'm pretty sure there was a stink at CLS about a female applicant who checked black but didn't look it. I'll try to find more info about it.

Finally, let us not underemphasize the importance schools place on your diversity statement and the effect your race has had in your life (in your PS for example) not to mention factors such as if you were a minority and the first one in your family to go to college, economic status, etc. It is here where you might find yourself in some trouble.   

Sometimes the school will make assumptions about you even if you don't mark anything on the application. I have one friend who constantly got pestered to be in a club on the basis of his last name alone and he didn't identify with that group at all.

As for people claiming to be black but not looking it, I wouldn't be surprised if that happened at a lot of schools. I know we had a person claim to be black who didn't look it and I have a friend at another school who says it happens at her school too.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Matthew on August 09, 2007, 07:26:16 AM
This has also been a problem for froups that use politically correct terminology.  The person would check the African American box and turn out to be a white person who is actually an African American.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on August 09, 2007, 08:00:21 AM
Actually, now that I think of it, I've received an invitation to join the SBLA.  Don't know if they send it to all of the incoming students, but I did receive one.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: MahlerGrooves on August 09, 2007, 10:27:27 AM
This has also been a problem for froups that use politically correct terminology.  The person would check the African American box and turn out to be a white person who is actually an African American.

Then that's not REALLY lying, now is it? 
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Matthew on August 09, 2007, 01:18:23 PM
This has also been a problem for froups that use politically correct terminology.  The person would check the African American box and turn out to be a white person who is actually an African American.

Then that's not REALLY lying, now is it? 

Not if the person was ignorant of what was really being asked.  But I think it would be if they knew exactly what it meant and were taking advantage of semantics.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: wellpreserved on August 09, 2007, 04:44:20 PM
Not too sure if this is a state or district thing, but I worked in a California school district where we kept records of every student, including their ethnicity. They were listed with a numerical code (700-white, 600-black, 500-hispanic, 400-asian, etc.) Every student that passed through our elementary, middle, or high school had a profile. I'm sure that if you were a bit suspect in your self-classification (and I'm not talking about the marginal "I can't tell what the heck he is" scenario) the bar could easily dig some of this up.

Also, whenever a minority student accepts an offer at a law school, one of the first people to hear about it are the student leaders of the certain group. Since every year the number of blacks or hispanics at a law school is between 0-15 (looking at NALP stats) each student receives a lot of attention. If you were clearly white as the fallen snow and your name went to the black law students group, I could only imagine the reaction when you show up to orientation. I heard of a student group in CA (at the undergraduate level) that called out someone in a scenario just like this and I'm pretty sure there was a stink at CLS about a female applicant who checked black but didn't look it. I'll try to find more info about it.

Finally, let us not underemphasize the importance schools place on your diversity statement and the effect your race has had in your life (in your PS for example) not to mention factors such as if you were a minority and the first one in your family to go to college, economic status, etc. It is here where you might find yourself in some trouble.   

Thank you! Not that anyone here will directly address your assertions but I know my experience certainly proved true the fact that your race is tracked from the moment you register in a public school system. Again, how else would schools know if they were in compliance with bussing and diversity regulations and how would we get those nifty "minority kids fall ever farther behind" statistics if no one was tracking race?

And I was pretty sure that self-identified minorities were acknowleged on campus, thus the school's due diligence in recruiting them (why recruit them if you don't plan to keep track of them in any way?). I can imagine the scenario you named above. Again, I don't think it'd be the adcomms who'd nail you but the other students/faculty who would cause a ruckus. And they don't have to prove anything, just raise enough doubt for you to be known as the lying sack of feces that tried to hold both your white privlege card and a bogus minority card to effectively scam every system. I'm thinking you wouldn't be too popular with career placement.

Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: BearlyLegal on August 09, 2007, 05:01:18 PM
Wait... there is a white privilege card? Why didn't I get one of these? Dammit. I have to go downtown and check with the office of cracker affairs. They always @#!* things up down there.  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: wellpreserved on August 09, 2007, 05:20:08 PM
Wait... there is a white privilege card? Why didn't I get one of these? Dammit. I have to go downtown and check with the office of cracker affairs. They always @#!* things up down there.  ;D ;D ;D

For saying cracker affairs YOU win the internet! LOL The whole kit and caboodle...with extra porn of your choosing. LOL
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: BearlyLegal on August 09, 2007, 05:31:54 PM
;)
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on August 09, 2007, 05:54:38 PM
No, no, no....we, as whites, are to be the sole users of the "C-word".  No other race can say it, or we will kick his/her ass.  I'd like to see you say the "C-word" in an all white neighborhood.  ;)
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Matthew on August 09, 2007, 06:25:57 PM
Not too sure if this is a state or district thing, but I worked in a California school district where we kept records of every student, including their ethnicity. They were listed with a numerical code (700-white, 600-black, 500-hispanic, 400-asian, etc.) Every student that passed through our elementary, middle, or high school had a profile. I'm sure that if you were a bit suspect in your self-classification (and I'm not talking about the marginal "I can't tell what the heck he is" scenario) the bar could easily dig some of this up.

Also, whenever a minority student accepts an offer at a law school, one of the first people to hear about it are the student leaders of the certain group. Since every year the number of blacks or hispanics at a law school is between 0-15 (looking at NALP stats) each student receives a lot of attention. If you were clearly white as the fallen snow and your name went to the black law students group, I could only imagine the reaction when you show up to orientation. I heard of a student group in CA (at the undergraduate level) that called out someone in a scenario just like this and I'm pretty sure there was a stink at CLS about a female applicant who checked black but didn't look it. I'll try to find more info about it.

Finally, let us not underemphasize the importance schools place on your diversity statement and the effect your race has had in your life (in your PS for example) not to mention factors such as if you were a minority and the first one in your family to go to college, economic status, etc. It is here where you might find yourself in some trouble.   

Thank you! Not that anyone here will directly address your assertions but I know my experience certainly proved true the fact that your race is tracked from the moment you register in a public school system. Again, how else would schools know if they were in compliance with bussing and diversity regulations and how would we get those nifty "minority kids fall ever farther behind" statistics if no one was tracking race?

What are you talking about?  I've been addressing these assertions.  I've seen my permanent record, it has no mention of race.  Not all schools have bussing or diversity regulations, especially in states not on the coasts.  There is no record of my race on my birth certificate, public school record, or college records, it doesn't exist. 

Maybe some people have these contradictions, but again, no one has any knowledge of anyone ever getting in trouble for this kind of thing.  You can talk about other students being pissed, dishonest people getting caught, and how thorough the bar examiners are.  It's all baseless speculation about a situation unique enough to make your comparisons invalid.

And they don't "track them."  They recruit them because they get to put another person in the minority column and help some disadvantaged people.  They don't follow up.  Anna Ivey (maybe not perfect, but certainly more qualified than you) says there are no consequences.  I'd love to see one instance or document beyond your opinion that suggests otherwise, but I'd be shocked if you could find one.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on August 10, 2007, 09:09:39 AM
Oh, us crackers and our cheeses!  :D
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Slim on August 10, 2007, 12:44:40 PM
Okay, just to give you some background...I am a minority, but I don't consider myslef a URM.  Nevertheless, most people when looking at me are very confused by my race, becacuse I'm mixed.  I could pass as mexican american if I wanted to, based on the color of my skin and the way I look.  Anyways, that really has nothing to do with my question:


Is there any negative consquences if you "check the box" saying that you are some kind of URM (African American, Native American, Mexican American, etc.) when you aren't when you are applying to law school?  I mean, law schools don't define what these different races mean.  Could you still qualify as a Native American if you grew up in a primarily native american community and identify with native americans and their culture?  The law school applications don't provide a specific defintion, so it seems like it's open to interpretation....and if you take it to the most liberal extent, maybe anyone can consider themselves to be a URM given the proper context, regardless of the color of their skin.  Also, it's not like law schools check the color of your skin, or verify your race somehow - since it's all self selection.  So why not check the box?  The advantages are too great to pass up, in terms of admissions and scholarships...depending on which URM you are its equivalent of getting a 6-9 pt boost on the LSAT.  And, they aren't going to revoke your acceptance just because you dont "look" like a particular URM right? 

This is a serious question - I have always wondered this.  I am not necessarily against affirmative action, but, I have always wondered what prevents people from just cheating - since there seems to be no or little verification that the person is infact the race they claimed to be.  Let me know your thoughts on this.
Yea there is a consequence.  You could be discriminated against. ;)
People will treat you like a special case as if you didn't work just as hard as everyone else, and you aren't as intelligent. 
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: wellpreserved on August 10, 2007, 07:14:11 PM
Okay, just to give you some background...I am a minority, but I don't consider myslef a URM.  Nevertheless, most people when looking at me are very confused by my race, becacuse I'm mixed.  I could pass as mexican american if I wanted to, based on the color of my skin and the way I look.  Anyways, that really has nothing to do with my question:


Is there any negative consquences if you "check the box" saying that you are some kind of URM (African American, Native American, Mexican American, etc.) when you aren't when you are applying to law school?  I mean, law schools don't define what these different races mean.  Could you still qualify as a Native American if you grew up in a primarily native american community and identify with native americans and their culture?  The law school applications don't provide a specific defintion, so it seems like it's open to interpretation....and if you take it to the most liberal extent, maybe anyone can consider themselves to be a URM given the proper context, regardless of the color of their skin.  Also, it's not like law schools check the color of your skin, or verify your race somehow - since it's all self selection.  So why not check the box?  The advantages are too great to pass up, in terms of admissions and scholarships...depending on which URM you are its equivalent of getting a 6-9 pt boost on the LSAT.  And, they aren't going to revoke your acceptance just because you dont "look" like a particular URM right? 

This is a serious question - I have always wondered this.  I am not necessarily against affirmative action, but, I have always wondered what prevents people from just cheating - since there seems to be no or little verification that the person is infact the race they claimed to be.  Let me know your thoughts on this.
Yea there is a consequence.  You could be discriminated against. ;)
People will treat you like a special case as if you didn't work just as hard as everyone else, and you aren't as intelligent. 

Please do not neglect to mention the added role of absolute authority on all issues ending in "ism". You may be called on to speak for an entire race of people while simultaneously having your judgment questioned because you are a member of said group of people and therefore inherently incapable of intelligent thought or discourse.

Some may think you took money/space that is rightfully thiers and will be quite vocal about it when you are in earshot.

You could become the darling of the admissions staff and your "free" time reserved for making them look good to other potential minorities that they expect you'll have some super secret special language and rapport with.

You may find your intellect questioned, your sexual prowess overblown after a night of drinking and your political leanings deemed unexamined.

Just a few of the possible consequences...
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on August 10, 2007, 07:18:37 PM
And everyone is going to wonder why you suck at basketball!  :P
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: BearlyLegal on August 11, 2007, 02:44:20 AM
Wait.... I get to go to a sweet law school AND have my sexual prowess "overblown"? Holy *&^%. Where do I sign up?
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on August 11, 2007, 03:42:06 AM
I guess I just do not understand how difficult it would be for the Bar Association to compare your college application to your law school application.  If you were white in college but hispanic in law school, you'd have some problems.

They wouldn't have ones college app, they'd have their transcripts, which do not list race.

Many institutions collect race data but do not disseminate it, as they'll tell you, it's collected for statistical reporting only, and in many cases, is not even tied to the applicant.

Again, I just looked at my high school and college transcripts and both list my race and the race of my parents. Does that information not become apart of your official law school record? And is that record not used as the starting point for your BAR app?


Your college transcripts state the race of your parents?  I find that very hard to believe.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Matthew on August 11, 2007, 11:26:51 AM
I guess I just do not understand how difficult it would be for the Bar Association to compare your college application to your law school application.  If you were white in college but hispanic in law school, you'd have some problems.

They wouldn't have ones college app, they'd have their transcripts, which do not list race.

Many institutions collect race data but do not disseminate it, as they'll tell you, it's collected for statistical reporting only, and in many cases, is not even tied to the applicant.

Again, I just looked at my high school and college transcripts and both list my race and the race of my parents. Does that information not become apart of your official law school record? And is that record not used as the starting point for your BAR app?


Your college transcripts state the race of your parents?  I find that very hard to believe.

That what I thought, but I decided to not call him a liar directly and simply say that mine doesn't.  But isn't that the great thing about the internet?  You can make up supporting arguments.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Slim on August 11, 2007, 12:14:34 PM
I guess I just do not understand how difficult it would be for the Bar Association to compare your college application to your law school application.  If you were white in college but hispanic in law school, you'd have some problems.

They wouldn't have ones college app, they'd have their transcripts, which do not list race.

Many institutions collect race data but do not disseminate it, as they'll tell you, it's collected for statistical reporting only, and in many cases, is not even tied to the applicant.

Again, I just looked at my high school and college transcripts and both list my race and the race of my parents. Does that information not become apart of your official law school record? And is that record not used as the starting point for your BAR app?


Your college transcripts state the race of your parents?  I find that very hard to believe.

That what I thought, but I decided to not call him a liar directly and simply say that mine doesn't.  But isn't that the great thing about the internet?  You can make up supporting arguments.
What?! Wait! Everything on here isn't the truth?!? WTF  ???  ;)
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: wellpreserved on August 11, 2007, 02:04:44 PM
I guess I just do not understand how difficult it would be for the Bar Association to compare your college application to your law school application.  If you were white in college but hispanic in law school, you'd have some problems.

They wouldn't have ones college app, they'd have their transcripts, which do not list race.

Many institutions collect race data but do not disseminate it, as they'll tell you, it's collected for statistical reporting only, and in many cases, is not even tied to the applicant.

Again, I just looked at my high school and college transcripts and both list my race and the race of my parents. Does that information not become apart of your official law school record? And is that record not used as the starting point for your BAR app?


Your college transcripts state the race of your parents?  I find that very hard to believe.

My hs records state the race of my parents. My college transcripts, however, include my high school demographic information and list my race. So, again, unless one starts the lie four years out from law school, or ten plus years for those of us who are older, than an abrupt change in race between freshman year and 1L would be kind of absurd.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Matthew on August 11, 2007, 03:35:55 PM
Good for you.  Even if that is true, and I'm still skeptical (read:you're a liar) my college never asked my race, and if my high school had it, they didn't record it anywhere.

And you're still assuming bar examiners look at this kind of thing.  Until you, or ANYONE can provide an example of anything happening, it's all just conjecture, hyperbole, or lies.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on August 11, 2007, 06:11:09 PM
I, too, would like to see a scanned copy of that transcript.

Using Photobucket, I have scanned and uploaded a copy of my transcript from 2005.  I have deleted some of the identifying info, such as SS#, DOB, my last name, my high school, and my address.  No mention of race anywhere.

http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x285/sc3pt0r/?action=view&current=Trans1.jpg (http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x285/sc3pt0r/?action=view&current=Trans1.jpg)

http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x285/sc3pt0r/?action=view&current=Trans2.jpg (http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x285/sc3pt0r/?action=view&current=Trans2.jpg)

BTW.........we aren't talking about grades here f*ckers... :D
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: sc3pt0r on August 11, 2007, 10:06:39 PM
 :D

White man's burden, my boy.  White man's burden.

(BTW, the aforementioned "boy", was not in reference to any black males.)

Also, changing subject a bit, why is socially correct for me to be referred to as "the white boy"?  (I attended a historically black college for undergrad.)  Is it then ok for the lone black kid to be referred to as "the black boy"?

Oh, I forgot.  South Park already addressed that.  His name was Token Black.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Matthew on August 11, 2007, 10:13:56 PM

Hopefully this will shut all you naysayers up. I marked out all the personal information .


http://s188.photobucket.com/albums/z248/sstar_bucket/?action=view&current=transcript.jpg




 :D ;D

 :'( I guess I stand corrected  ;) , or simply correct.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Matthew on August 11, 2007, 10:22:44 PM
Also, changing subject a bit, why is socially correct for me to be referred to as "the white boy"?  (I attended a historically black college for undergrad.)  Is it then ok for the lone black kid to be referred to as "the black boy"?

Oh, I forgot.  South Park already addressed that.  His name was Token Black.

I feel stupid, I never got that.  Though, thinking back, I don't believe I've seen the episode introducing him or even heard his last name.  Is it really black?

But I did love "here comes the neighborhood."

Token: Mom? Dad? Why do we have a bigger house than everybody else in South Park?
Bob: Well, because we have more money, son.
Token: I know. But why?
Bob: ...W-well, because we went to graduate school and therefore have more lucrative jobs than most people in town. For instance, your mother is a chemist for a pharmaceutical company, whereas your friend Eric Cartman's mother is a crack whore. One pays more than the other.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Say Yes on August 12, 2008, 02:00:33 PM
bump.  very curious about this.  has anyone here sat for a character and fitness exam?  if it truly is self identification, then the bar has no way to say you lied right?  i read over on TLS that only somehting like .002% of applicants are denied.  one anecdote says that a former cop who covered up a murder was denied, but also encouraged to re-apply in a few years.  surely self-identifying with a race that might not be your nationality isn't going to keep you from being admitted to the bar?
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: xferlawstudent on August 12, 2008, 04:37:11 PM
I responded on the other thread.  I recently saw that Georgia only rejected something like 50 applicants in the history of c & f.  So yes, virtually everyone passes.  I think the only way you would fail that is if you embezzled money b/c of the trust account concerns.


I seriously doubt lying about URM status would come to light in C & F.  The only way I could see is if they compared college applications (which to my knowledge they don't).

How can you even prove one is or isn't a URM?  What constitutes minority? 1/2? 1/4? 1/128?  There are some serious proof problems here.

Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: bt on August 12, 2008, 05:03:25 PM
Something that should be kept in mind if it hasn't been mentioned is that it could be bad if you suddenly switch (I assume).  I can certainly pass for Native American due to my olive skin but I have always identified as white despite the fact that I may (and probably am) 1/8th NA.  Since I have identified as white on my college apps and now on the LSAT when I took it, it would probably do more harm than good if I suddenly took advantage of my possible URM status.
Title: Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
Post by: Matthew on August 12, 2008, 06:54:38 PM
That's what the entire argument for the last few posts have been.  I never indicated race to my college, and doubt most include it on the transcript.