Law School Discussion

Off-Topic Area => General Off-Topic Board => Topic started by: Too Embarrassed on July 05, 2007, 03:44:51 PM

Title: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Too Embarrassed on July 05, 2007, 03:44:51 PM
It's not like you get 0%.  You just don't get 50%! hehehe!

I say everyone should sign a PRENUP!  However, if I'm poor and he's a rich ass sucker, I won't want to sign it! hehehe! ;D

::I aint saying she's a gold-digger, but she aint messing with no broke, broke::
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Cabra on July 05, 2007, 06:04:58 PM
who said the guy is the one asking for a prenup?

In my case I'm the one who would ask for one...
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: John Blackthorne on July 05, 2007, 08:00:43 PM

its definitely gonna depend on the relative assets of each party
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: TheCanadian on July 05, 2007, 08:01:31 PM
i am mos def gonna sign a prenup
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Elephant Lee on July 05, 2007, 08:19:46 PM
probability is against them at about the five year mark
Substantiate this claim.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: John Blackthorne on July 05, 2007, 08:23:31 PM
If a wife requires a prenuptial agreement, its gods sign telling you she is not the right person for you. Christian women understand that they must take the man for better or worse, its in the vows. If she wants you to agree on a dissolution of marriage before you are even wed, its likely she will not make a proper wife.

obnoxious, but funny, really funny
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: n/a on July 05, 2007, 08:41:21 PM
If a wife requires a prenuptial agreement, its gods sign telling you she is not the right person for you. Christian women understand that they must take the man for better or worse, its in the vows. If she wants you to agree on a dissolution of marriage before you are even wed, its likely she will not make a proper wife.

This account rocks.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Elephant Lee on July 05, 2007, 08:45:16 PM
As far as I can tell, ya got at least a 50% shot of sticking her 'out till one of youz croaks. Depending on relevant demographics.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: TwinkyBean on July 05, 2007, 08:59:38 PM
It's not like you get 0%.  You just don't get 50%! hehehe!

I say everyone should sign a PRENUP!  However, if I'm poor and he's a rich ass sucker, I won't want to sign it! hehehe! ;D

::I aint saying she's a gold-digger, but she aint messing with no broke, broke::

Haha.. totally agree! I'm all for the prenup, as long as I'm not on the sh*t end of the deal! lol..  ;D
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: obamacon on July 05, 2007, 08:59:45 PM
If one has a serious business venture with someone else, it's often a requirement.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: John Blackthorne on July 05, 2007, 09:01:43 PM
It's not like you get 0%.  You just don't get 50%! hehehe!

I say everyone should sign a PRENUP!  However, if I'm poor and he's a rich ass sucker, I won't want to sign it! hehehe! ;D

::I aint saying she's a gold-digger, but she aint messing with no broke, broke::

Haha.. totally agree! I'm all for the prenup, as long as I'm not on the sh*t end of the deal! lol..  ;D

we all know you are going to lawschool to get an MRS degree and not a JD
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: n/a on July 05, 2007, 09:03:33 PM
I would find it disrespectful for someone NOT to sign a prenup.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: TwinkyBean on July 05, 2007, 09:09:03 PM
It's not like you get 0%.  You just don't get 50%! hehehe!

I say everyone should sign a PRENUP!  However, if I'm poor and he's a rich ass sucker, I won't want to sign it! hehehe! ;D

::I aint saying she's a gold-digger, but she aint messing with no broke, broke::

Haha.. totally agree! I'm all for the prenup, as long as I'm not on the sh*t end of the deal! lol..  ;D

we all know you are going to lawschool to get an MRS degree and not a JD

Okay, you caught me...
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: n/a on July 05, 2007, 09:12:53 PM
It's not like you get 0%.  You just don't get 50%! hehehe!

I say everyone should sign a PRENUP!  However, if I'm poor and he's a rich ass sucker, I won't want to sign it! hehehe! ;D

::I aint saying she's a gold-digger, but she aint messing with no broke, broke::

Haha.. totally agree! I'm all for the prenup, as long as I'm not on the sh*t end of the deal! lol..  ;D

we all know you are going to lawschool to get an MRS degree and not a JD

Okay, you caught me...

Gah your sig makes me want to gouge out my eyes... is that weird?
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: TwinkyBean on July 05, 2007, 09:19:35 PM
It's not like you get 0%.  You just don't get 50%! hehehe!

I say everyone should sign a PRENUP!  However, if I'm poor and he's a rich ass sucker, I won't want to sign it! hehehe! ;D

::I aint saying she's a gold-digger, but she aint messing with no broke, broke::

Haha.. totally agree! I'm all for the prenup, as long as I'm not on the sh*t end of the deal! lol..  ;D

we all know you are going to lawschool to get an MRS degree and not a JD

Okay, you caught me...

Gah your sig makes me want to gouge out my eyes... is that weird?

No, not at all..
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: John Blackthorne on July 05, 2007, 09:21:36 PM
It's not like you get 0%.  You just don't get 50%! hehehe!

I say everyone should sign a PRENUP!  However, if I'm poor and he's a rich ass sucker, I won't want to sign it! hehehe! ;D

::I aint saying she's a gold-digger, but she aint messing with no broke, broke::

Haha.. totally agree! I'm all for the prenup, as long as I'm not on the sh*t end of the deal! lol..  ;D

we all know you are going to lawschool to get an MRS degree and not a JD

Okay, you caught me...

Gah your sig makes me want to gouge out my eyes... is that weird?

your sig makes me laugh alot
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: TwinkyBean on July 05, 2007, 10:09:51 PM
I would find it disrespectful for someone NOT to sign a prenup.

A Christian women would not even bring up the subject. Her duty is to the husband, then God. Preoccupation with worldly goods shows only how little disrespect she has for family values. This would not bode well for a long lasting and supportive marriage. Its a sign that she harbors a desire for independence separate from the family unit. Regardless of how attractive she might be, that is a sure signal that she will be hard to control later on.   

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!  ::)
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: TheCanadian on July 06, 2007, 01:24:42 AM
I would find it disrespectful for someone NOT to sign a prenup.

A Christian women would not even bring up the subject. Her duty is to the husband, then God. Preoccupation with worldly goods shows only how little disrespect she has for family values. This would not bode well for a long lasting and supportive marriage. Its a sign that she harbors a desire for independence separate from the family unit. Regardless of how attractive she might be, that is a sure signal that she will be hard to control later on.   

Well what if one is just in the marraige until they meet somebody hotter? It'd be dumb to leave without taking at least SOMETHING away from at all...like his money. ::)

Quote
Regardless of how attractive she might be, that is a sure signal that she will be hard to control later on.   
if you and I were married I'd be the one controling you...you'd be my biotch, little man ;) ;D
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Judgie Poo on July 06, 2007, 07:40:18 AM
Is "TwinkyBean" a schtick?  I don't think anyone else on this board is half as annoying.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: TheCanadian on July 06, 2007, 08:33:52 AM
i dated this indian girl once

and her father did not like her step mother all that much, but had no pre-nup


so, when he took her back to india for a visit, he left and took her passport with him.  she eventually got back state side, but she was pissed!
Yeah...I know a lot of similar stories like that...but they end up more grim...
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Alamo on July 06, 2007, 08:39:05 AM
I'd be interested to see if divorce rates are any higher for couples who signed a prenup.

Personally, I think that if I were going through a divorce, division of assets would be the least of my problems.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: michelle d on July 06, 2007, 09:37:37 AM
I'd be interested to see if divorce rates are any higher for couples who signed a prenup.

Personally, I think that if I were going through a divorce, division of assets would be the least of my problems.

Yeah, ditto.  I'd be the much higher wage earner in my marriage but I'd never ask for a prenup.  A lot of times there will be kids involved, too, which complicates assests even more.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: TwinkyBean on July 06, 2007, 09:42:04 AM
twinky is great.  leave her alone!  >:(

Thanks Blue! I heart you! :) ... Its okay, he's just jealous ;)
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: OCLawGirl on July 06, 2007, 09:47:41 AM
Some people who get divorced regret not having one.  In the "love" stages of a relationship, you are blinded by the fairy tales, till death do us part bullsh*t!  Once you are getting divorce, the Mr Charming is not the same.  He becomes this azzsh*t and before you know it it's too late.  You see him walking away with half your sh*t!

Personally, I ecommend hidding your $$$.  No joint accounts, no joint credit card, buy your house b4 you get married.  Look out for #1 - YOU! You don't want a divorce to ruin your life. 

That whole - if this relationship is forever, why do you need a pre-nup?  It's because the marriage is not guarantee.  Let's be REALISTC!
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: AlphaBusey on July 06, 2007, 09:50:38 AM
Don't get married, simple as that.

So when she finds you in bed with her sister, all you have to do is maybe pay for the U-Haul to get her stuff out of there.  And that's if you're being generous.

Marriages and the "traditional family" are generally not a natural state, that is, one has to discipline themselves to remain in the situation.  Don't believe me, ask Ted Haggard, Newt Gingrich, or Rudy Giuliani.  Especially Rudy.  Damn, that guy is boss.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: OCLawGirl on July 06, 2007, 11:13:07 AM
Some people who get divorced regret not having one.  In the "love" stages of a relationship, you are blinded by the fairy tales, till death do us part bullsh*t!  Once you are getting divorce, the Mr Charming is not the same.  He becomes this azzsh*t and before you know it it's too late.  You see him walking away with half your sh*t!

Personally, I ecommend hidding your $$$.  No joint accounts, no joint credit card, buy your house b4 you get married.  Look out for #1 - YOU! You don't want a divorce to ruin your life. 

That whole - if this relationship is forever, why do you need a pre-nup?  It's because the marriage is not guarantee.  Let's be REALISTC!

umm, in your case, why even get married then  ???

If you "NEED" specific things.  ;)  But once you get it...GET OUT!
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: OCLawGirl on July 06, 2007, 11:19:31 AM
Some people who get divorced regret not having one.  In the "love" stages of a relationship, you are blinded by the fairy tales, till death do us part bullsh*t!  Once you are getting divorce, the Mr Charming is not the same.  He becomes this azzsh*t and before you know it it's too late.  You see him walking away with half your sh*t!

Personally, I ecommend hidding your $$$.  No joint accounts, no joint credit card, buy your house b4 you get married.  Look out for #1 - YOU! You don't want a divorce to ruin your life. 

That whole - if this relationship is forever, why do you need a pre-nup?  It's because the marriage is not guarantee.  Let's be REALISTC!

umm, in your case, why even get married then  ???

If you "NEED" specific things.  ;)  But once you get it...GET OUT!

thats what boy toys are for

sheesh...

Honey - boy toys are "WANTS" not "NEEDS". 
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: OCLawGirl on July 06, 2007, 11:23:50 AM
pickle jar opener?

they have that gadget on tv...

lol!
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Alamo on July 06, 2007, 11:36:35 AM
Don't get married, simple as that.

So when she finds you in bed with her sister, all you have to do is maybe pay for the U-Haul to get her stuff out of there.  And that's if you're being generous.

Depends what state you're in.  In some, palimony can be a female dog.  In Virginia, the recent Defense of Marriage constitutional amendment, ostensibly aimed against gays, also cuts off virtually any rights of one member of an unmarried couple against another.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ....,,., on July 06, 2007, 11:45:23 AM

That whole - if this relationship is forever, why do you need a pre-nup?  It's because the marriage is not guarantee.  Let's be REALISTC!

I used to have this argument a lot with a gf. 

Her: Well why would you need a pre-nup if we're planning to stay together forever?
Me:  Well if we're going to stay together forever, why does it matter?
Her:  Exactly, it doesn't matter, so why sign a pre-nup?
Me:  Exactly, it doesn't matter, so why not sign one?

Repeated this a few times, and then:

Her:  But in case something unexpected happened, I wouldn't want to be left with nothing.
Me:  Aha!!!
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: michelle d on July 06, 2007, 12:29:50 PM

That whole - if this relationship is forever, why do you need a pre-nup?  It's because the marriage is not guarantee.  Let's be REALISTC!

I used to have this argument a lot with a gf. 

Her: Well why would you need a pre-nup if we're planning to stay together forever?
Me:  Well if we're going to stay together forever, why does it matter?
Her:  Exactly, it doesn't matter, so why sign a pre-nup?
Me:  Exactly, it doesn't matter, so why not sign one?

Repeated this a few times, and then:

Her:  But in case something unexpected happened, I wouldn't want to be left with nothing.
Me:  Aha!!!

Mmm, what a winner.


This does make me wonder, though -- what are the legal ramifications of having a prenup if you end up married to (and subsequently divorcing) a Teri Schiavo?
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ....,,., on July 06, 2007, 12:35:54 PM
I can't tell if you're dissing me or the girl.  :-[
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: michelle d on July 06, 2007, 12:40:10 PM
I can't tell if you're dissing me or the girl.  :-[

Take your time, Bosco.  Is she coming with you or is this a past relationship?
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ....,,., on July 06, 2007, 12:42:59 PM
I can't tell if you're dissing me or the girl.  :-[

Take your time, Bosco.  Is she coming with you or is this a past relationship?

Lol...and neither.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: michelle d on July 06, 2007, 12:45:46 PM
I can't tell if you're dissing me or the girl.  :-[

Take your time, Bosco.  Is she coming with you or is this a past relationship?

Lol...and neither.

Stayin' together but she's staying put?
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ....,,., on July 06, 2007, 12:47:10 PM
I can't tell if you're dissing me or the girl.  :-[

Take your time, Bosco.  Is she coming with you or is this a past relationship?

Lol...and neither.

Stayin' together but she's staying put?

Yeah, I'm actually in Boston for the summer and she's living in our hometown on Long Island.  Then she's going to Columbia for grad school.

She wasn't too happy when I chose Chicago over NYU.  :-\
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: michelle d on July 06, 2007, 12:50:04 PM
I can't tell if you're dissing me or the girl.  :-[

Take your time, Bosco.  Is she coming with you or is this a past relationship?

Lol...and neither.

Stayin' together but she's staying put?

Yeah, I'm actually in Boston for the summer and she's living in our hometown on Long Island.  Then she's going to Columbia for grad school.

She wasn't too happy when I chose Chicago over NYU.  :-\

Are you going to try to make that work?  (Because this is clearly totally my business.)  Grad school was a bit of a tipping point in my relationship even though it was never discussed.  He's coming and willing to move back to my homestate afterwards, so now I feel, like, morally obligated to marry him at some point.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ....,,., on July 06, 2007, 12:54:47 PM
I can't tell if you're dissing me or the girl.  :-[

Take your time, Bosco.  Is she coming with you or is this a past relationship?

Lol...and neither.

Stayin' together but she's staying put?

Yeah, I'm actually in Boston for the summer and she's living in our hometown on Long Island.  Then she's going to Columbia for grad school.

She wasn't too happy when I chose Chicago over NYU.  :-\

Are you going to try to make that work?  (Because this is clearly totally my business.)  Grad school was a bit of a tipping point in my relationship even though it was never discussed.  He's coming and willing to move back to my homestate afterwards, so now I feel, like, morally obligated to marry him at some point.

Yeah, we're planning to stay together.  I'll be fine with it...I feel like it might be tougher for her.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: flyaway on July 08, 2007, 11:00:48 AM
I don't think there's anything logically wrong with a prenup, but it just seems so cold when you're marrying the love of your life.  It's hard to say to your partner, "We're making a lifelong commitment, but maybe we'll betray our word."

Anyway, we don't have a prenup.  Up until I graduate from law school, he's been the higher income earner.  After that I will be.  But you know, after having supported me through law school, I think he'd deserve something for that.  Just like I think women who make professional sacrifices to be stay-at-home mothers deserve the protection of the law.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Lily Jaye on July 08, 2007, 02:32:55 PM
I don't think there's anything logically wrong with a prenup, but it just seems so cold when you're marrying the love of your life.  It's hard to say to your partner, "We're making a lifelong commitment, but maybe we'll betray our word."

Anyway, we don't have a prenup.  Up until I graduate from law school, he's been the higher income earner.  After that I will be.  But you know, after having supported me through law school, I think he'd deserve something for that.  Just like I think women who make professional sacrifices to be stay-at-home mothers deserve the protection of the law.

...Which 50% arguably doesn't do. Women are harmed far more by marriage than men are -- especially if they have children.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: The Poster on July 08, 2007, 02:37:42 PM
negotiating a prenup is like going through a divorce, from what i've seen. each side has their own attorney (by law), it can get pretty nasty.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Sam P. Huntington on July 08, 2007, 02:53:34 PM
Some people who get divorced regret not having one.  In the "love" stages of a relationship, you are blinded by the fairy tales, till death do us part bullsh*t!  Once you are getting divorce, the Mr Charming is not the same.  He becomes this azzsh*t and before you know it it's too late.  You see him walking away with half your sh*t!

Personally, I ecommend hidding your $$$.  No joint accounts, no joint credit card, buy your house b4 you get married.  Look out for #1 - YOU! You don't want a divorce to ruin your life. 

That whole - if this relationship is forever, why do you need a pre-nup?  It's because the marriage is not guarantee.  Let's be REALISTC!

Assuming there is no prenup, will having separate accounts mean that you keep the money in your account after the divorce?
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: The Poster on July 08, 2007, 02:56:32 PM
negotiating a prenup is like going through a divorce, from what i've seen. each side has their own attorney (by law), it can get pretty nasty.

If your relationship can make it through that, it can make it through anything. Call it a test? ;)

prenups only take care of assets you have before marriage anyhow. anything you earn/inherit afterwards isn't covered, and those are the things most people usually care about.

this is not legal advice.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 08, 2007, 02:59:05 PM
Yeah, we're planning to stay together.  I'll be fine with it...I feel like it might be tougher for her.

I can keep her warm in those cold new york nights for you.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: The Poster on July 08, 2007, 03:13:15 PM
negotiating a prenup is like going through a divorce, from what i've seen. each side has their own attorney (by law), it can get pretty nasty.

If your relationship can make it through that, it can make it through anything. Call it a test? ;)

prenups only take care of assets you have before marriage anyhow. anything you earn/inherit afterwards isn't covered, and those are the things most people usually care about.

this is not legal advice.

I would really prefer to see the teeth and claws before stepping into a legally binding commitment. Fewer surprises later, etc.

it can go both ways, my friend.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Hank Rearden on July 08, 2007, 03:20:41 PM
If I were about to marry someone, and I thought, "Hmm, maybe I should get a prenup," I'm probably marrying the wrong person. 
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: John Blackthorne on July 08, 2007, 03:23:14 PM
I don't think there's anything logically wrong with a prenup, but it just seems so cold when you're marrying the love of your life.  It's hard to say to your partner, "We're making a lifelong commitment, but maybe we'll betray our word."

Anyway, we don't have a prenup.  Up until I graduate from law school, he's been the higher income earner.  After that I will be.  But you know, after having supported me through law school, I think he'd deserve something for that.  Just like I think women who make professional sacrifices to be stay-at-home mothers deserve the protection of the law.

...Which 50% arguably doesn't do. Women are harmed far more by marriage than men are -- especially if they have children.

would you please explain your response.  Please.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Ravynous Elegance on July 08, 2007, 03:28:10 PM
My bf and I are definitely planning on a prenup...

It'll basically say that anything I acquire during the course of our marriage through inheritance will remain mine - for example my parents beach house. Additionally my parents have things in mine and my sisters name in case of any legal action taken against them (my dad is a doctor) - the prenup will protect that stuff too. Basically, I'd be coming into the marriage with more than he would be... so I'd want to protect that stuff, and he knows he has no claim to any of it. He (currently) wants a prenup as well, he basically said he'd make me sign one to protect my assets just in case.

He also wants a clause that says something to the affect of "if adultery is to blame for the dissolution of the marriage, the adulterer gets less than 50% of assets acquired during the marriage" I don't know how much less than 50% but since I don't think it (cheating) will be an issue for me... what do I care.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: The Poster on July 08, 2007, 03:39:19 PM
My bf and I are definitely planning on a prenup...

It'll basically say that anything I acquire during the course of our marriage through inheritance will remain mine - for example my parents beach house. Additionally my parents have things in mine and my sisters name in case of any legal action taken against them (my dad is a doctor) - the prenup will protect that stuff too. Basically, I'd be coming into the marriage with more than he would be... so I'd want to protect that stuff, and he knows he has no claim to any of it. He (currently) wants a prenup as well, he basically said he'd make me sign one to protect my assets just in case.

He also wants a clause that says something to the affect of "if adultery is to blame for the dissolution of the marriage, the adulterer gets less than 50% of assets acquired during the marriage" I don't know how much less than 50% but since I don't think it (cheating) will be an issue for me... what do I care.

prenups can't do this. at least not in any state i am aware of. you can only dispose of assets you have before you get married, not things you inherit or earn after you are married.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: n/a on July 08, 2007, 03:50:10 PM
My bf and I are definitely planning on a prenup...

It'll basically say that anything I acquire during the course of our marriage through inheritance will remain mine - for example my parents beach house. Additionally my parents have things in mine and my sisters name in case of any legal action taken against them (my dad is a doctor) - the prenup will protect that stuff too. Basically, I'd be coming into the marriage with more than he would be... so I'd want to protect that stuff, and he knows he has no claim to any of it. He (currently) wants a prenup as well, he basically said he'd make me sign one to protect my assets just in case.

He also wants a clause that says something to the affect of "if adultery is to blame for the dissolution of the marriage, the adulterer gets less than 50% of assets acquired during the marriage" I don't know how much less than 50% but since I don't think it (cheating) will be an issue for me... what do I care.

prenups can't do this. at least not in any state i am aware of. you can only dispose of assets you have before you get married, not things you inherit or earn after you are married.

Well *&^% im never getting married then.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Ravynous Elegance on July 08, 2007, 04:32:20 PM
My bf and I are definitely planning on a prenup...

It'll basically say that anything I acquire during the course of our marriage through inheritance will remain mine - for example my parents beach house. Additionally my parents have things in mine and my sisters name in case of any legal action taken against them (my dad is a doctor) - the prenup will protect that stuff too. Basically, I'd be coming into the marriage with more than he would be... so I'd want to protect that stuff, and he knows he has no claim to any of it. He (currently) wants a prenup as well, he basically said he'd make me sign one to protect my assets just in case.

He also wants a clause that says something to the affect of "if adultery is to blame for the dissolution of the marriage, the adulterer gets less than 50% of assets acquired during the marriage" I don't know how much less than 50% but since I don't think it (cheating) will be an issue for me... what do I care.

prenups can't do this. at least not in any state i am aware of. you can only dispose of assets you have before you get married, not things you inherit or earn after you are married.

Well sh*t im never getting married then.

Yeah, that's a deal-breaker for me....I'll have to look into this

Def thought they could, but i'll look into that too. Else I might just have to write up a contract with him stating that he has no rights to that stuff.... I know he'd sign it.

EDIT: http://www.smith-lawfirm.com/div_pre-nups.htm
this site says you can use them to protect inheritances... then again its a CT law firm's site so it might vary.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: The Poster on July 08, 2007, 07:11:14 PM
My bf and I are definitely planning on a prenup...

It'll basically say that anything I acquire during the course of our marriage through inheritance will remain mine - for example my parents beach house. Additionally my parents have things in mine and my sisters name in case of any legal action taken against them (my dad is a doctor) - the prenup will protect that stuff too. Basically, I'd be coming into the marriage with more than he would be... so I'd want to protect that stuff, and he knows he has no claim to any of it. He (currently) wants a prenup as well, he basically said he'd make me sign one to protect my assets just in case.

He also wants a clause that says something to the affect of "if adultery is to blame for the dissolution of the marriage, the adulterer gets less than 50% of assets acquired during the marriage" I don't know how much less than 50% but since I don't think it (cheating) will be an issue for me... what do I care.

prenups can't do this. at least not in any state i am aware of. you can only dispose of assets you have before you get married, not things you inherit or earn after you are married.

Well sh*t im never getting married then.

Yeah, that's a deal-breaker for me....I'll have to look into this

Def thought they could, but i'll look into that too. Else I might just have to write up a contract with him stating that he has no rights to that stuff.... I know he'd sign it.

EDIT: http://www.smith-lawfirm.com/div_pre-nups.htm
this site says you can use them to protect inheritances... then again its a CT law firm's site so it might vary.

unless a state already allows for that by law that kind of contract won't hold up. those kind of things do tend to vary tho...some states even allow for post-nuptial agreements (florida is one i think). may want to be careful about where you live. once you get lexis and westlaw access at your law school you can go crazy researching the issue yourself if you like.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: John Blackthorne on July 08, 2007, 07:29:08 PM
My bf and I are definitely planning on a prenup...

It'll basically say that anything I acquire during the course of our marriage through inheritance will remain mine - for example my parents beach house. Additionally my parents have things in mine and my sisters name in case of any legal action taken against them (my dad is a doctor) - the prenup will protect that stuff too. Basically, I'd be coming into the marriage with more than he would be... so I'd want to protect that stuff, and he knows he has no claim to any of it. He (currently) wants a prenup as well, he basically said he'd make me sign one to protect my assets just in case.

He also wants a clause that says something to the affect of "if adultery is to blame for the dissolution of the marriage, the adulterer gets less than 50% of assets acquired during the marriage" I don't know how much less than 50% but since I don't think it (cheating) will be an issue for me... what do I care.

prenups can't do this. at least not in any state i am aware of. you can only dispose of assets you have before you get married, not things you inherit or earn after you are married.

Well sh*t im never getting married then.

Yeah, that's a deal-breaker for me....I'll have to look into this

Def thought they could, but i'll look into that too. Else I might just have to write up a contract with him stating that he has no rights to that stuff.... I know he'd sign it.

EDIT: http://www.smith-lawfirm.com/div_pre-nups.htm
this site says you can use them to protect inheritances... then again its a CT law firm's site so it might vary.

unless a state already allows for that by law that kind of contract won't hold up. those kind of things do tend to vary tho...some states even allow for post-nuptial agreements (florida is one i think). may want to be careful about where you live. once you get lexis and westlaw access at your law school you can go crazy researching the issue yourself if you like.

that was not legal advice.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: The Poster on July 08, 2007, 09:07:38 PM
My bf and I are definitely planning on a prenup...

It'll basically say that anything I acquire during the course of our marriage through inheritance will remain mine - for example my parents beach house. Additionally my parents have things in mine and my sisters name in case of any legal action taken against them (my dad is a doctor) - the prenup will protect that stuff too. Basically, I'd be coming into the marriage with more than he would be... so I'd want to protect that stuff, and he knows he has no claim to any of it. He (currently) wants a prenup as well, he basically said he'd make me sign one to protect my assets just in case.

He also wants a clause that says something to the affect of "if adultery is to blame for the dissolution of the marriage, the adulterer gets less than 50% of assets acquired during the marriage" I don't know how much less than 50% but since I don't think it (cheating) will be an issue for me... what do I care.

prenups can't do this. at least not in any state i am aware of. you can only dispose of assets you have before you get married, not things you inherit or earn after you are married.

Well sh*t im never getting married then.

Yeah, that's a deal-breaker for me....I'll have to look into this

Def thought they could, but i'll look into that too. Else I might just have to write up a contract with him stating that he has no rights to that stuff.... I know he'd sign it.

EDIT: http://www.smith-lawfirm.com/div_pre-nups.htm
this site says you can use them to protect inheritances... then again its a CT law firm's site so it might vary.

unless a state already allows for that by law that kind of contract won't hold up. those kind of things do tend to vary tho...some states even allow for post-nuptial agreements (florida is one i think). may want to be careful about where you live. once you get lexis and westlaw access at your law school you can go crazy researching the issue yourself if you like.

that was not legal advice.

right, of course.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Alamo on July 08, 2007, 09:19:06 PM
My bf and I are definitely planning on a prenup...

It'll basically say that anything I acquire during the course of our marriage through inheritance will remain mine - for example my parents beach house. Additionally my parents have things in mine and my sisters name in case of any legal action taken against them (my dad is a doctor) - the prenup will protect that stuff too. Basically, I'd be coming into the marriage with more than he would be... so I'd want to protect that stuff, and he knows he has no claim to any of it. He (currently) wants a prenup as well, he basically said he'd make me sign one to protect my assets just in case.

He also wants a clause that says something to the affect of "if adultery is to blame for the dissolution of the marriage, the adulterer gets less than 50% of assets acquired during the marriage" I don't know how much less than 50% but since I don't think it (cheating) will be an issue for me... what do I care.

prenups can't do this. at least not in any state i am aware of. you can only dispose of assets you have before you get married, not things you inherit or earn after you are married.

I don't think this is true.  There may be a presumption that property acquired during the marriage is indeed marital, but I think that a gift/inheritance made expressly to one party and not the other remains separate property, at least in Virginia.  "Community property" states have a stronger presumption that property is marital, but even there I'm pretty sure there are ways to get around sharing assets acquired during marriage if they're given to just one spouse.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: The Poster on July 08, 2007, 10:06:16 PM
My bf and I are definitely planning on a prenup...

It'll basically say that anything I acquire during the course of our marriage through inheritance will remain mine - for example my parents beach house. Additionally my parents have things in mine and my sisters name in case of any legal action taken against them (my dad is a doctor) - the prenup will protect that stuff too. Basically, I'd be coming into the marriage with more than he would be... so I'd want to protect that stuff, and he knows he has no claim to any of it. He (currently) wants a prenup as well, he basically said he'd make me sign one to protect my assets just in case.

He also wants a clause that says something to the affect of "if adultery is to blame for the dissolution of the marriage, the adulterer gets less than 50% of assets acquired during the marriage" I don't know how much less than 50% but since I don't think it (cheating) will be an issue for me... what do I care.

prenups can't do this. at least not in any state i am aware of. you can only dispose of assets you have before you get married, not things you inherit or earn after you are married.

I don't think this is true. There may be a presumption that property acquired during the marriage is indeed marital, but I think that a gift/inheritance made expressly to one party and not the other remains separate property, at least in Virginia. "Community property" states have a stronger presumption that property is marital, but even there I'm pretty sure there are ways to get around sharing assets acquired during marriage if they're given to just one spouse.

well, i speak only with knowledge of massachusetts law, which is not a community property state. in massachusetts, even if property is in the name of only one spouse, the other may still have a claim on it absent any prenup. in general when you are married you are more like one legal entity...traditionally it was more so that way, but the asset aspect of that still remains. of course when i am talking about assets i am talking about solely owned assets - things that are jointly owned like joint bank accounts or a house owned as joint tenants instead of tenants in common are another story, at least where inheritance is concerned (inheritance by the surviving spouse).
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 09, 2007, 03:37:25 AM
If I were about to marry someone, and I thought, "Hmm, maybe I should get a prenup," I'm probably marrying the wrong person. 

Fair enough, but what if she was the right person, and you didn't think that, but 10 years down the line you got impotent but your neighbor did not. He just got divorced, and figured he'd take your wife to bahamas, and since you can't make her scream anymore she figured she'd take half your *&^% and bail?

Be realistic, the only people that ever would mind signing a prenup is a golddigger. If he/she protests, you got your answer right there.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: pikey on July 09, 2007, 06:54:10 AM
If I were about to marry someone, and I thought, "Hmm, maybe I should get a prenup," I'm probably marrying the wrong person. 

Fair enough, but what if she was the right person, and you didn't think that, but 10 years down the line you got impotent but your neighbor did not. He just got divorced, and figured he'd take your wife to bahamas, and since you can't make her scream anymore she figured she'd take half your *&^% and bail?

Be realistic, the only people that ever would mind signing a prenup is a golddigger. If he/she protests, you got your answer right there.

Umm, wrong.  I'd prolly mind signing a prenup and have more than my bf!

There are definitely reasons why people would be reluctant to sign a prenup other than being a golddigger.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 09, 2007, 07:34:15 AM
If I were about to marry someone, and I thought, "Hmm, maybe I should get a prenup," I'm probably marrying the wrong person. 

Fair enough, but what if she was the right person, and you didn't think that, but 10 years down the line you got impotent but your neighbor did not. He just got divorced, and figured he'd take your wife to bahamas, and since you can't make her scream anymore she figured she'd take half your *&^% and bail?

Be realistic, the only people that ever would mind signing a prenup is a golddigger. If he/she protests, you got your answer right there.

Umm, wrong.  I'd prolly mind signing a prenup and have more than my bf!

There are definitely reasons why people would be reluctant to sign a prenup other than being a golddigger.

Name one?
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: flyaway on July 09, 2007, 07:35:34 AM
Knowing that people and relationships change, just because I trust the person I'm marrying right now, that doesn't mean she would be someone I would trust 10 years down the road. Especially not if a divorce got messy. So, even though marriage is approaching a statistical impossibility for me and even considering a hypothetical marriage is practically moot, I wouldn't get married without one.

And this is the difference between the way a T approaches marriage and the way an F approaches marriage (Meyers-Briggs).  That difference is why Keno is wrong in saying that only golddiggers would mind signing a prenup.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: pikey on July 09, 2007, 07:36:44 AM
If I were about to marry someone, and I thought, "Hmm, maybe I should get a prenup," I'm probably marrying the wrong person. 

Fair enough, but what if she was the right person, and you didn't think that, but 10 years down the line you got impotent but your neighbor did not. He just got divorced, and figured he'd take your wife to bahamas, and since you can't make her scream anymore she figured she'd take half your *&^% and bail?

Be realistic, the only people that ever would mind signing a prenup is a golddigger. If he/she protests, you got your answer right there.

Umm, wrong.  I'd prolly mind signing a prenup and have more than my bf!

There are definitely reasons why people would be reluctant to sign a prenup other than being a golddigger.

Name one?

Haven't we have various reasons throughout this thread.  Many people are uncomfortable with the implications that you're planning for a divorce before you're even married.  It's perfectly legitimate to feel that way, even if you don't agree with it.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: John Blackthorne on July 09, 2007, 07:37:48 AM
If I were about to marry someone, and I thought, "Hmm, maybe I should get a prenup," I'm probably marrying the wrong person. 

Fair enough, but what if she was the right person, and you didn't think that, but 10 years down the line you got impotent but your neighbor did not. He just got divorced, and figured he'd take your wife to bahamas, and since you can't make her scream anymore she figured she'd take half your *&^% and bail?

Be realistic, the only people that ever would mind signing a prenup is a golddigger. If he/she protests, you got your answer right there.

Umm, wrong.  I'd prolly mind signing a prenup and have more than my bf!

There are definitely reasons why people would be reluctant to sign a prenup other than being a golddigger.

Name one?

Haven't we have various reasons throughout this thread.  Many people are uncomfortable with the implications that you're planning for a divorce before you're even married.  It's perfectly legitimate foolish to feel that way, even if you don't agree with it.

fixt.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 09, 2007, 07:39:14 AM
Haven't we have various reasons throughout this thread.  Many people are uncomfortable with the implications that you're planning for a divorce before you're even married.  It's perfectly legitimate to feel that way, even if you don't agree with it.

Well, if ignoring reality is a prerequisite for getting married, I don't want to get married anyway. Which I obviously don't anyway, so it makes no different to me.

Although if a potential-wife-to be for me refused signing a prenup, I wouldn't spend a second listening to her reasons why.

Then again, I could only see myself with a strong, independent woman who took pride in standing on her own two feet, in which case I would expect she wanted a prenup too.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 09, 2007, 07:42:33 AM
I usually don't give much credit to personality tests, but for the sake of argument, you are correct. I am very strong NTJ, moderate E;)
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: pikey on July 09, 2007, 07:42:47 AM
Haven't we have various reasons throughout this thread.  Many people are uncomfortable with the implications that you're planning for a divorce before you're even married.  It's perfectly legitimate to feel that way, even if you don't agree with it.

Well, if ignoring reality is a prerequisite for getting married, I don't want to get married anyway. Which I obviously don't anyway, so it makes no different to me.

Although if a potential-wife-to be for me refused signing a prenup, I wouldn't spend a second listening to her reasons why.

Then again, I could only see myself with a strong, independent woman who took pride in standing on her own two feet, in which case I would expect she wanted a prenup too.

You continue with the fallacies.  Just because a women is strong and independent and takes pride in standing on her own too feet doesn't mean she'd necessarily want a prenup.  I'm all of the above, but don't necessarily want a prenup.

Just because something doesn't fit in with your particular worldview doesn't mean it's wrong.  It's perfectly fine to state your opinion as such.  The problem is that you often state your opinions as if they were facts.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: John Blackthorne on July 09, 2007, 07:45:27 AM
Haven't we have various reasons throughout this thread.  Many people are uncomfortable with the implications that you're planning for a divorce before you're even married.  It's perfectly legitimate to feel that way, even if you don't agree with it.

Well, if ignoring reality is a prerequisite for getting married, I don't want to get married anyway. Which I obviously don't anyway, so it makes no different to me.

Although if a potential-wife-to be for me refused signing a prenup, I wouldn't spend a second listening to her reasons why.

Then again, I could only see myself with a strong, independent woman who took pride in standing on her own two feet, in which case I would expect she wanted a prenup too.

You continue with the fallacies.  Just because a women is strong and independent and takes pride in standing on her own too feet doesn't mean she'd necessarily want a prenup.  I'm all of the above, but don't necessarily want a prenup.

Just because something doesn't fit in with your particular worldview doesn't mean it's wrong.  It's perfectly fine to state your opinion as such.  The problem is that you often state your opinions as if they were facts.

blinded by love
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ....,,., on July 09, 2007, 07:46:48 AM
So is there any way to sign some sort of agreement that the money you make during marriage is safe?  In other words, if you get divorced, assuming you don't have kids, you both keep whatever money you've made, and the other person has no claim to it?  Now the e is after my girl, I'm even more worried than before.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: pikey on July 09, 2007, 07:48:15 AM
Haven't we have various reasons throughout this thread.  Many people are uncomfortable with the implications that you're planning for a divorce before you're even married.  It's perfectly legitimate to feel that way, even if you don't agree with it.

Well, if ignoring reality is a prerequisite for getting married, I don't want to get married anyway. Which I obviously don't anyway, so it makes no different to me.

Although if a potential-wife-to be for me refused signing a prenup, I wouldn't spend a second listening to her reasons why.

Then again, I could only see myself with a strong, independent woman who took pride in standing on her own two feet, in which case I would expect she wanted a prenup too.

You continue with the fallacies.  Just because a women is strong and independent and takes pride in standing on her own too feet doesn't mean she'd necessarily want a prenup.  I'm all of the above, but don't necessarily want a prenup.

Just because something doesn't fit in with your particular worldview doesn't mean it's wrong.  It's perfectly fine to state your opinion as such.  The problem is that you often state your opinions as if they were facts.

blinded by love

 ::)

At the very least, I don't think a prenup would even be worth the lawyer's fees.  I have nothing that won't be eaten up by law school.  He has nothing that isn't being consumed by grad school.  Since prenups usually don't protect assets acquired after the marriage, what's the point?
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: John Blackthorne on July 09, 2007, 07:49:59 AM

we read some cases where the husband stashed his money in trusts in the kids names, and had himself or one of his sole partnerships or llp's in control of the trust.  in the one case the guy probably would have gotten away with the money stashing if he hadn't been openly cheating on his wife for a number of years with various women.  
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 09, 2007, 07:50:33 AM
So is there any way to sign some sort of agreement that the money you make during marriage is safe?  In other words, if you get divorced, assuming you don't have kids, you both keep whatever money you've made, and the other person has no claim to it?  Now the e is after my girl, I'm even more worried than before.

I would expect a prenup to contain whatever both parties agree to. Anything else seems dumb.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: pikey on July 09, 2007, 07:56:15 AM

we read some cases where the husband stashed his money in trusts in the kids names, and had himself or one of his sole partnerships or llp's in control of the trust.  in the one case the guy probably would have gotten away with the money stashing if he hadn't been openly cheating on his wife for a number of years with various women.  

I know enough about trust law (I'm a trust officer) to know that those type of trusts can easily be challenged as a sham.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Zam on July 09, 2007, 08:00:34 AM
I haven't really read much of this thread, aside from this last page of arguing, but if I ever get married I would prefer to have a prenup.

It just seems like a good idea, but I can understand why some people would be offended by one.

Money is such a sensitive and divisive issue in a relationship that I would rather have things spelled out in a legal document.

But I'm strange and don't really know that I want to get married anyway.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ....,,., on July 09, 2007, 08:00:53 AM

I would expect a prenup to contain whatever both parties agree to. Anything else seems dumb.

Reading a little more about it now and it seems like you're right...thank god
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 09, 2007, 08:08:08 AM

I would expect a prenup to contain whatever both parties agree to. Anything else seems dumb.

Reading a little more about it now and it seems like you're right...thank god

I promise not to taint your Columbia girlfriend, prenup or not!
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Ravynous Elegance on July 09, 2007, 08:11:02 AM
Getting a prenup doesn't have to be like planning for a divorce. You can do it together with one lawyer, rather than each side having independent counsel and fighting over things. Sure each party has the right to independent counsel, but it definitely doesn't have to be that way. In CT however, the prenup is considered void if at the time the separate parties don't use independent counsel, or waive their right to it.

I kind of think that a prenup is becoming a normal part of wedding planning...
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ....,,., on July 09, 2007, 08:12:13 AM

I would expect a prenup to contain whatever both parties agree to. Anything else seems dumb.

Reading a little more about it now and it seems like you're right...thank god

I promise not to taint your Columbia girlfriend, prenup or not!

Haha thank you.  ;)
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 09, 2007, 08:12:25 AM
Prenup or OJ style divorce. Either way works for me  ;D
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: GraphiteDirigible on July 09, 2007, 08:20:39 AM


I kind of think that a prenup is becoming a normal part of wedding planning...


You have to be kidding me. Considering a prenup or getting one? I highly doubt that getting a prenup is a normal part of wedding planning. Maybe in Cape Cod, the Hamptons, NY society pages. But, no way for the majority. A) most people don't have the assets to even make it a consideration. B) It's does imply planning for the worst and most newly weds simply don't want to even admit the possibility.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Ravynous Elegance on July 09, 2007, 08:25:20 AM


I kind of think that a prenup is becoming a normal part of wedding planning...


You have to be kidding me. Considering a prenup or getting one? I highly doubt that getting a prenup is a normal part of wedding planning. Maybe in Cape Cod, the Hamptons, NY society pages. But, no way for the majority. A) most people don't have the assets to even make it a consideration. B) It's does imply planning for the worst and most newly weds simply don't want to even admit the possibility.

Okay fine... Everyone that I know that has gotten married recently/is planning a wedding has had or is getting a prenup. I'm in Fairfield County CT however, so you might be right about the majority of the US not getting them.

However on that stupid engaged and underage show, a few of them got prenups and they weren't exactly wealthy.

EDIT: Additionally, I don't think its stupid to plan for the worst. People do it with everyday things. Its just like getting insurance in case something happens. I don't see why you have to get all upset about protecting yourself and your assets from being taken when you dont get upset about paying for car insurance or home owners insurance. Its just a safety net, like anything else.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 09, 2007, 08:25:49 AM
Quote
There are no statistics on how many prenuptial agreements are written, probably because they do not need to be filed until they're enforced, attorneys say. But here's a hint: The best-selling book in Amazon.com's marriage category in 1999 was "How to Write Your Own Premarital Agreement."

Quote
There is no set formula for what ought to be stipulated in a premarital agreement, Woodhouse says. However, for any such pact to be valid, you need three things:

* First, you must give adequate notice. You cannot present a premarital agreement to your prospective spouse in the limousine on the way to the wedding and expect it to hold up later, says Monica Braun, an attorney and a financial advisor with American Express Financial Advisors in Long Beach. Both parties should have a chance to carefully consider the document and have it reviewed by their attorneys.

* The second absolute requirement is disclosure, attorneys say. Not only must both parties list their respective assets, but they need to show each other documents, ranging from credit card bills and tax returns to brokerage statements and pension print-outs, detailing what they have and what's being keep separate. In fact, if you write your own premarital agreement, Michigan attorney and "Premarital Agreement" author Edward A. Haman suggests that you attach these documents to your contract.

* The third essential is a marriage plan or "statement of intent," Woodhouse says. This should spell out who the parties are, what they bring to the marriage and what they intend to share. Anything that's precious and requires protection should be included. There is no formula for this step, attorneys say. However, it is important to contemplate whether you and your spouse plan to have children and whether one of you will stay home with them, Woodhouse says. How will the couple handle money when one is no longer earning an income?
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: GraphiteDirigible on July 09, 2007, 08:55:00 AM
Quote
There are no statistics on how many prenuptial agreements are written, probably because they do not need to be filed until they're enforced, attorneys say. But here's a hint: The best-selling book in Amazon.com's marriage category in 1999 was "How to Write Your Own Premarital Agreement."


Well, I didn't see a "marriage" section. But here's the best-selling list for the "weddings" section:

http://www.amazon.com/Weddings-Home-Garden-Books/b/ref=amb_link_12/103-2075418-4511830?%5Fencoding=UTF8&node=5418&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=browse&pf_rd_r=0ZNBN8HYSNP25DYH09CC&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=245893601&pf_rd_i=48

Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 10, 2007, 01:29:41 AM
Quote
There are no statistics on how many prenuptial agreements are written, probably because they do not need to be filed until they're enforced, attorneys say. But here's a hint: The best-selling book in Amazon.com's marriage category in 1999 was "How to Write Your Own Premarital Agreement."
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Too Embarrassed on July 10, 2007, 10:02:41 AM
If the 2 people in the marriage are both hard working, I see no reason why they won't want to sign a prenup.  Usually, the lazy one of the couple is the one who refuses to sign one. 

Oh boy...the worst is paying alimony!  Urrrgh! Lazy bastard! Go get a f**king job! >:(
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: TwinkyBean on July 10, 2007, 10:17:24 AM
I'm going though a divorce right now, (for the past year) and we didn't make that much money.. I was in school full-time and taking care of a baby, and he was in the military.. But now that he is refusing to pay child support.. I kinda wish we had a prenup so I could make him suffer more, knowing that he owes ME money...hahaa
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 10, 2007, 10:22:50 AM
Indeed, refusing to pay child support isn't cool, that's not at all what I'm saying. Prenups should be fair in both directions, and I think they usually are.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Too Embarrassed on July 10, 2007, 10:28:00 AM
I'm going though a divorce right now, (for the past year) and we didn't make that much money.. I was in school full-time and taking care of a baby, and he was in the military.. But now that he is refusing to pay child support.. I kinda wish we had a prenup so I could make him suffer more, knowing that he owes ME money...hahaa

Well, he won't be getting away with it for long.  He will go to jail, his passport and/or drivers license will be seized, his wage garnishment, he won't get his tax refund, it shows up on his credit report...

I have a deep hatred for DEADBEAT Dads!
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 10, 2007, 10:29:30 AM
Unlike deadbeat moms which you fully support?
Yeah that's right, it's a two way street even if one direction might have heavier traffic.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: fuwaf on July 10, 2007, 10:33:38 AM
There's nothing wrong with a prenup except that it isn't very romantic.  Even if you don't get one, you definitely, definitely want to protect yourself financially.  I used to work at a credit card company and I heard OVER and OVER and OVER again from dozens of people about how their ex-partner totally destroyed their credit by draining joint accounts and jacking up joint credit cards.  My friend who works in a bank told me about a guy she helped whose ex-partner took their entire savings out of a joint account.  You may not want to think that kind of thing could happen to you, and you might think that the person you're married to is wonderful and faithful and will be that way forever, but people change.  So if you don't want a prenup, limit the assets you keep in joint accounts.  It's not sweet and loving, but it's safer.  And more realistic.  For both parties, frankly.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: TwinkyBean on July 10, 2007, 10:45:45 AM
I'm going though a divorce right now, (for the past year) and we didn't make that much money.. I was in school full-time and taking care of a baby, and he was in the military.. But now that he is refusing to pay child support.. I kinda wish we had a prenup so I could make him suffer more, knowing that he owes ME money...hahaa

Well, he won't be getting away with it for long.  He will go to jail, his passport and/or drivers license will be seized, his wage garnishment, he won't get his tax refund, it shows up on his credit report...

I have a deep hatred for DEADBEAT Dads!

But the thing is, he's overseas, stationed with the military, and there is absolutely NOTHING I, or my attorneys, can do. He's protected by something called the Soldiers' and Sailors' Relief Act... which protects them from legal action regarding foreclosure, bankruptcy, and DIVORCE. I just have to deal what whatever I'm getting from him now (money, I mean) until he comes back to the US... it sucks.. and could go on for years if he doesn't come back over here. Yeah, he's a f*cking loser. :) 
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Too Embarrassed on July 10, 2007, 10:47:50 AM
There's nothing wrong with a prenup except that it isn't very romantic.  Even if you don't get one, you definitely, definitely want to protect yourself financially.  I used to work at a credit card company and I heard OVER and OVER and OVER again from dozens of people about how their ex-partner totally destroyed their credit by draining joint accounts and jacking up joint credit cards.  My friend who works in a bank told me about a guy she helped whose ex-partner took their entire savings out of a joint account.  You may not want to think that kind of thing could happen to you, and you might think that the person you're married to is wonderful and faithful and will be that way forever, but people change.  So if you don't want a prenup, limit the assets you keep in joint accounts.  It's not sweet and loving, but it's safer.  And more realistic.  For both parties, frankly.

Exactly!  Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! He's "different" you are "in love" - Be Smart and protect yourself.  What's love got to do with it!  It's each man for himself.  
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: michelle d on July 10, 2007, 10:49:49 AM
Indeed, refusing to pay child support isn't cool, that's not at all what I'm saying. Prenups should be fair in both directions, and I think they usually are.

Yeah, because making major sacrifices to see a spouse through professional school automatically makes you a lazy-ass.  The simple fact of the matter is when you help someone through several years of law/medical/professional/grad school, you often to get screwed in a divorce.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 10, 2007, 10:51:16 AM
Sell his stuff on ebay.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 10, 2007, 10:53:11 AM
Indeed, refusing to pay child support isn't cool, that's not at all what I'm saying. Prenups should be fair in both directions, and I think they usually are.

Yeah, because making major sacrifices to see a spouse through professional school automatically makes you a lazy-ass.  The simple fact of the matter is when you help someone through several years of law/medical/professional/grad school, you often to get screwed in a divorce.

That makes no sense in relation to what I wrote.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Too Embarrassed on July 10, 2007, 10:56:19 AM
Unlike deadbeat moms which you fully support?
Yeah that's right, it's a two way street even if one direction might have heavier traffic.

Well, I care more about my side of the traffic.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: TwinkyBean on July 10, 2007, 10:58:06 AM
Unlike deadbeat moms which you fully support?
Yeah that's right, it's a two way street even if one direction might have heavier traffic.

Well, I care more about my side of the traffic.

And my daughter's... (she's little, so she gets to ride in the carpool (HOV) lane.. lol)
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: fuwaf on July 10, 2007, 11:49:20 AM
There's nothing wrong with a prenup except that it isn't very romantic.

What I was getting at earlier and now return to:

romance and the legal institution of marriage are two distinct, though often conflated, things.

I'm not really sure what point you're making.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: linquest on July 10, 2007, 11:52:52 AM
There's nothing wrong with a prenup except that it isn't very romantic.

For anyone who's getting engaged/married, and worried about bringing up the prenup issue to your significant other, you should read this book:
Prenups for Lovers: A Romantic Guide to Prenuptial Agreements http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/product-description/0375755357/ref=dp_proddesc_0/102-7634502-2304900?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/product-description/0375755357/ref=dp_proddesc_0/102-7634502-2304900?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books)

The author outlines why you should have a prenup even if you're "in love and planning on staying together forever" and how to approach the issue in a way that strengthens your marriage rather than setting it up for failure as some people believe prenup discussions will do.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: fuwaf on July 10, 2007, 11:57:39 AM
There's nothing wrong with a prenup except that it isn't very romantic.

What I was getting at earlier and now return to:

romance and the legal institution of marriage are two distinct, though often conflated, things.

I'm not really sure what point you're making.

If I were about to marry someone, and I thought, "Hmm, maybe I should get a prenup," I'm probably marrying the wrong person. 

Titcar

silly.

::won't explain why here.  doesn't want to hijack::


I think a lot of confusion comes from the conflation of romantic ideals with the institution of marriage.  Two people can live a lovely life together forever and forever; two people can get married.  You can have either without the other.

It seems to me that the concept of marriage is taken in proxy to represent the romantic ideals.  I find this completely flawed. 

Of course, my stance causes me no end of grief in relationships.   ;)

Oh, ok.  I agree to some extent. 
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: n/a on July 10, 2007, 12:02:22 PM
Can I author a prenup that withholds assets as she withholds sex??
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: fuwaf on July 10, 2007, 12:03:42 PM
Can I author a prenup that withholds assets as she withholds sex??

 :D :D :D
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: fuwaf on July 10, 2007, 12:13:57 PM
To be fair to hank and qui, if what they meant was something like, "If I were about to marry someone, and I thought, "Hmm, maybe I should get a prenup because I feel this person intends to stab me in the back," I'm probably marrying the wrong person," then I agree too.

Yes, I would agree with that statement.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Too Embarrassed on July 10, 2007, 12:22:15 PM
It should be more like:

"I'm taking a leap of faith with this person I'm deeply in love with.  I know, there are no guarantees in life.  If things don't work out, I want to be fair and maintain a good standad of living for myself and our kids (if any).  If this relationship ends, I don't want to be blind sided or be in a situation where I'll HATE this person I'm currently in love with.  I want to put all my cards on the table right now and discuss directions we should take and reach a mutual agreement now in the even that things don't work out in the future."
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 10, 2007, 12:53:10 PM
Any guy that asks me for a prenup can go @#!* himself.  :)

Golddigger.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Astro on July 10, 2007, 01:08:31 PM
don't hurt me.   :-\


literally made me LOLZ
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: The Poster on July 10, 2007, 01:24:52 PM
Any guy that asks me for a prenup can go @#!* himself. :)

Golddigger.

Nah. Rich people are extremely boring. :)

This may be the one statement of yours that I agree with the most out of all of your posts.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Too Embarrassed on July 10, 2007, 01:31:18 PM
It should be more like:

"I'm taking a leap of faith with this person I'm deeply in love with.  I know, there are no guarantees in life.  If things don't work out, I want to be fair and maintain a good standad of living for myself and our kids (if any).  If this relationship ends, I don't want to be blind sided or be in a situation where I'll HATE this person I'm currently in love with.  I want to put all my cards on the table right now and discuss directions we should take and reach a mutual agreement now in the even that things don't work out in the future."

But I just know that my gf and I will always be together.

Riiiight!  ;)
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: n/a on July 10, 2007, 01:37:47 PM


Any guy that asks me for a prenup can go @#!* himself.  :)

Any lady who tells me to go @#!* myself when prompted to sign a document to ensure they won't take all my money when they cheat on me with the pool boy in 5 years will get her ass kicked.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 10, 2007, 01:38:39 PM
Any guy that asks me for a prenup can go @#!* himself.  :)

Golddigger.

Nah. Rich people are extremely boring.  :)

:'(
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Too Embarrassed on July 10, 2007, 01:43:57 PM


Any guy that asks me for a prenup can go @#!* himself.  :)

Any lady who tells me to go @#!* myself when prompted to sign a document to ensure they won't take all my money when they cheat on me with the pool boy in 5 years will get her ass kicked.

Anyone who tells you to go @#!* yourself is no lady!  ;D
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: n/a on July 10, 2007, 01:47:42 PM

lucky for qui, she's no lady.

::chews tobacco::

::swallows::

::pisses pants::
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: The Poster on July 10, 2007, 01:49:57 PM


Any guy that asks me for a prenup can go @#!* himself. :)

Any lady who tells me to go @#!* myself when prompted to sign a document to ensure they won't take all my money when they cheat on me with the pool boy in 5 years will get her ass kicked.

lucky for qui, she's no lady.

i've been saying that for years.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 10, 2007, 01:51:40 PM
Any guy that asks me for a prenup can go @#!* himself.  :)

Golddigger.

Nah. Rich people are extremely boring.  :)

:'(

You asked for it  :)

You suck :( I don't want to be your friend anymore.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Too Embarrassed on July 10, 2007, 01:59:33 PM
So you are telling me if there is a $20million dollar clause in a prenup...meaning if the relationship doesn't work out, you can take the $20mil, you won't sign it?  It's a win-win situation.  What's the problem? ???
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Too Embarrassed on July 10, 2007, 02:19:21 PM
So you are telling me if there is a $20million dollar clause in a prenup...meaning if the relationship doesn't work out, you can take the $20mil, you won't sign it?  It's a win-win situation.  What's the problem? ???


Win-win?  How so?

It works out, you are still in the relationship with your "Prince Charming"
It doesn't work out, you have $20 mil (thanks to the pre-nup)
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 10, 2007, 02:57:56 PM
Drop the prenup reqmt and we can be more than friends

Well, I don't intend to get married at all, so prenup won't be an issue so let's go :p
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: TwinkyBean on July 10, 2007, 03:00:05 PM
So you are telling me if there is a $20million dollar clause in a prenup...meaning if the relationship doesn't work out, you can take the $20mil, you won't sign it?  It's a win-win situation.  What's the problem? ???


Win-win?  How so?

It works out, you are still in the relationship with your "Prince Charming"
It doesn't work out, you have $20 mil (thanks to the pre-nup)

Haha.  I don't need or want $20 mil.  (No, not even to give away).  Hard to believe, I imagine, but it's true.

I need and want $20 million.. to keep for myself. Not to give to some low-life lazy ass cheating loser because he wouldnt sign the prenup... i'm all for it, if it saves my ass!
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: sillyberry on July 10, 2007, 03:00:53 PM
Some prenuptial agreement food for thought (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/15/AR2006061500743.html).
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: sillyberry on July 10, 2007, 03:03:40 PM
Some prenuptial agreement food for thought (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/15/AR2006061500743.html).

Did you see my post the other day about how much I <3 Carolyn Hax?

No!  But yeah!  Reading her chats on Fridays at noon makes me happy.  Also speeds the work day up nicely.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 10, 2007, 03:04:43 PM
If my wife to be as much as flinched when presented with a prenup, I'd have her ass on the street the same evening.

Quote
But pre- and postnups are battle plans for a war that can be avoided. They make it easier for people to pick up and leave.
This is the sad part... "I don't love my wife, but I have to stick with her, I can't afford a divorce". What the @#!* kind of relationship is that to keep alive?
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Astro on July 10, 2007, 03:12:07 PM
Is it just me, or are you guys not picking up on the fact that she's advocating AGAINST prenups/postnups?




I think her reasoning is bunk and based on antiquated social norms.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: sillyberry on July 10, 2007, 03:13:27 PM
Some prenuptial agreement food for thought (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/15/AR2006061500743.html).

Did you see my post the other day about how much I <3 Carolyn Hax?

No!  But yeah!  Reading her chats on Fridays at noon makes me happy.  Also speeds the work day up nicely.

Oh i should check those out, sometime.  I used to read her in the printed paper.  Always entertaining.

Sometimes she talks about how people need to jump in the ocean wearing a pair of bacon pants.

I know a few people I would recommend those to...
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 10, 2007, 03:17:05 PM
Is it just me, or are you guys not picking up on the fact that she's advocating AGAINST prenups/postnups?

Actually, that's exactly what we're picking up on, if not, what we said wouldn't make sense.

You don't have a prenup, so if you get divorced, your wife (or husband) will take half. You can't afford that, so you stick together even though neither one of you really gives a *&^% anymore.

If that's a good alternative for marriage, I'm pretty sure I picked the right stance on the issue.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: The Poster on July 10, 2007, 03:24:22 PM
easy solution for people who want to keep potential spouse from their assets: DON'T GET MARRIED.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 10, 2007, 03:26:49 PM
easy solution for people who want to keep potential spouse from their assets: DON'T GET MARRIED.
titcar
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: n/a on July 10, 2007, 03:32:01 PM
easy solution for people who want to keep potential spouse from their assets: DON'T GET MARRIED.
titcar

Yea she'll get that too.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Judgie Poo on July 10, 2007, 03:48:09 PM
or knock the female dog up...
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: n/a on July 10, 2007, 04:18:24 PM
Can you force your spouse to be responsible for a portion of your debt, if you accrue it after marriage?

I just gotta dupe a lady into marrying me for 3 years, will cut law school expenses in half.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Elephant Lee on July 10, 2007, 07:34:43 PM
With?
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: sillyberry on July 10, 2007, 07:40:27 PM
With?

maybe...

I bet she's a juicy piece of ham butt.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: n/a on July 10, 2007, 11:04:05 PM
With?

maybe...

I bet she's a juicy piece of ham butt.

I am so using this.  I think the broads would enjoy being called that.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Archbishop Don Magic Juan on July 10, 2007, 11:41:56 PM
Pimpilicious playas please... I got bitches lickin my toes while Im pimpin the hoes.

I make it rain on all my former babies' mamas.

Bishop out.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ljg on July 11, 2007, 06:16:56 AM
I'm all for prenups. I watched a cousin of mine go through a nasty divorce a few years back after 20+ years of marriage- she was a stay at home mom, her husband was a bigwig executive, and she got SCREWED in the divorice. Plus, she had been out of the workforce for a very long time and it was more than difficult for her to find a job that would allow her to support herself- it was a bad situation all around.

I will be making more money than my bf after law school, and he has no problem signing a prenup- he's always said that if we were to get married and then divorced his ego/pride wouldn't stop him from taking any money from me.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: GraphiteDirigible on July 11, 2007, 08:05:52 AM
With?

maybe...

I bet she's a juicy piece of ham butt.

Sexy. :-*
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 11, 2007, 08:15:14 AM
I'm all for prenups. I watched a cousin of mine go through a nasty divorce a few years back after 20+ years of marriage- she was a stay at home mom, her husband was a bigwig executive, and she got SCREWED in the divorice. Plus, she had been out of the workforce for a very long time and it was more than difficult for her to find a job that would allow her to support herself- it was a bad situation all around

Not questioning her experience, but this sounds a lot more like a scenario where he'd get screwed by her talking half of his *&^%.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ljg on July 11, 2007, 08:27:27 AM
I'm all for prenups. I watched a cousin of mine go through a nasty divorce a few years back after 20+ years of marriage- she was a stay at home mom, her husband was a bigwig executive, and she got SCREWED in the divorice. Plus, she had been out of the workforce for a very long time and it was more than difficult for her to find a job that would allow her to support herself- it was a bad situation all around

Not questioning her experience, but this sounds a lot more like a scenario where he'd get screwed by her talking half of his sh*t.

Wouldn't you think? He had a good attorney, she didn't. Don't quite know how it happened, but he screwed her over and she got almost nothing.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: TinaTina on July 11, 2007, 08:33:16 AM
How is it his stuff if she sacrificed her independence and self-reliance and spent 20 years catering to him so that he could become that bigwig executive?  At the very least he should reimburse her for lost wages. (at the going rate for a scretary if he's determined to be a prick about it)
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ljg on July 11, 2007, 08:44:19 AM
How is it his stuff if she sacrificed her independence and self-reliance and spent 20 years catering to him so that he could become that bigwig executive?  At the very least he should reimburse her for lost wages. (at the going rate for a scretary if he's determined to be a prick about it)

Agreed. That's why I'm all for prenups- if I were in a situation where I had a stay at home husband, I wouldn't want to be the prick who completely screwed him over just because I have the $$ to hire a good attorney. A prenups ensures that neither party is left with nothing, like my cousin.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Too Embarrassed on July 11, 2007, 09:40:16 AM
I'm all for prenups. I watched a cousin of mine go through a nasty divorce a few years back after 20+ years of marriage- she was a stay at home mom, her husband was a bigwig executive, and she got SCREWED in the divorice. Plus, she had been out of the workforce for a very long time and it was more than difficult for her to find a job that would allow her to support herself- it was a bad situation all around.


If she was a stay at home mom, she can get alimony.  Did she at least get a good child support order.  If he's a big wig exec, he should be paying big $$$ for child support.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ljg on July 11, 2007, 10:32:12 AM
I'm all for prenups. I watched a cousin of mine go through a nasty divorce a few years back after 20+ years of marriage- she was a stay at home mom, her husband was a bigwig executive, and she got SCREWED in the divorice. Plus, she had been out of the workforce for a very long time and it was more than difficult for her to find a job that would allow her to support herself- it was a bad situation all around.


If she was a stay at home mom, she can get alimony.  Did she at least get a good child support order.  If he's a big wig exec, he should be paying big $$$ for child support.

No child support- the children were in college and not living with her. He did foot the college bill and the kids expenses, but technically none of it went to her. She got some $$, but certainly not even close to what you would expect, and not enough to live on (given the lack of working a traditional job for that long).
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: fuwaf on July 11, 2007, 10:36:54 AM
I know of a similar situation with my friend's mom... I don't think she got totally screwed over, but she was a teacher for years, then stopped working when she got pregnant with their only child, and he supported the entire family.  Then 20 odd years later he starts having an affair with some woman in Minneapolis and they get divorced and he packs off to Minnesota.  So meanwhile, she has no work experience for decades, she's in her 50s, and she has no income.  I'm sure he's supporting her to some extent, but her daughter was already in college, and based on what ljg says she probably doesn't get much.  The point is that YOU JUST DON'T KNOW.

Another story-- my cello teacher was married to a guy for decades, and they were a perfectly normal couple and you would have thought they'd be together forever.  They retired and bought a bed & breakfast to run in West Virginia.  COMPLETELY OUT OF THE BLUE a few years ago, her husband just leaves.  I think he left her a NOTE.  Seriously.  I don't know her financial situation afterwards, but she had to sell the B&B.  Again, the point is... you just don't know.  People can be very, very surprising. 
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Too Embarrassed on July 11, 2007, 11:07:07 AM
::Note to self::

a.  Never get married (again)
b.  If you get married, get pre-nup
c.  Never trust anyone
d.  Marriage isn't guaranteee
e.  Make your own money and don't depend on your spouse
f.  Each man for himself
g.  Hide $$$

Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: GraphiteDirigible on July 11, 2007, 12:52:17 PM
::Note to self::

a.  Never get married (again)
b.  If you get married, get pre-nup
c.  Never trust anyone
d.  Marriage isn't guaranteee
e.  Make your own money and don't depend on your spouse
f.  Each man for himself
g.  Hide $$$



h.  remember that love is an illusion
i.  money is the primary measure of a human's worth
j.  think about starting alimony futures trade network
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: n/a on July 11, 2007, 01:15:19 PM
::changes business model::

::forms LLP with qui::



::Jumps in and makes it an LLC::

LETS START DIVORCIN' FOLKS
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: GraphiteDirigible on July 11, 2007, 01:26:39 PM
::changes mind::

::starts divorce insurance for husbands who are afraid to request a prenup and wives whose husbands did (or vice versa)::

::patents idea::
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Too Embarrassed on July 11, 2007, 03:23:04 PM
::Delete This Thread soon:::

That trumps everyone! hehehe ;D
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: The Poster on July 11, 2007, 04:46:45 PM
::Delete This Thread soon:::

That trumps everyone! hehehe ;D

too bad you don't have the power, just like prenups don't have the power to fully protect your assets.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Too Embarrassed on July 11, 2007, 05:04:05 PM
::Delete This Thread soon:::

That trumps everyone! hehehe ;D

too bad you don't have the power, just like prenups don't have the power to fully protect your assets.

Well, I have the POWER to lock this thread! muuuhahahaha! ;D
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: The Poster on July 11, 2007, 05:12:41 PM
::Delete This Thread soon:::

That trumps everyone! hehehe ;D

too bad you don't have the power, just like prenups don't have the power to fully protect your assets.

Well, I have the POWER to lock this thread! muuuhahahaha! ;D

lock perhaps, but not delete. :)
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: John Blackthorne on July 11, 2007, 07:47:04 PM
::Delete This Thread soon:::

That trumps everyone! hehehe ;D

too bad you don't have the power, just like prenups don't have the power to fully protect your assets.

Well, I have the POWER to lock this thread! muuuhahahaha! ;D

Your blueb's alt aren't you?
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 12, 2007, 06:02:23 AM
How is it his stuff if she sacrificed her independence and self-reliance and spent 20 years catering to him so that he could become that bigwig executive?  At the very least he should reimburse her for lost wages. (at the going rate for a scretary if he's determined to be a prick about it)

I don't even know that she sacrificed anything. There's plenty of women looking to get 'married well' so they don't have to work and stand on their own feet. There's no sacrifice to them, they get to live the life of Paris Hilton, shopping without having an income etc. I'm not saying this is the case for ljg's example, but there's plenty of women who actively seek to not have to do jack *&^%. I don't feel the least bit sorry for these people when their sugar daddy packs up and leave. If you based your life on marriage and decided to not amount to a productive human being yourself; @#!* you.

Yet again, this isn't relevant to ljg's example at all, I know nothing about neither of these people. It is however my very strong opinion that money and wealth belongs to the person who created it. No, being a house wife isn't a $500k/year job. Especially if you're not doing house work to begin with, that'd done by Carmen the illegal maid.

The more I talk to women about these kind of things, the more reassured I become I'll never want to marry any of you.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Ravynous Elegance on July 12, 2007, 06:41:16 AM
How is it his stuff if she sacrificed her independence and self-reliance and spent 20 years catering to him so that he could become that bigwig executive?  At the very least he should reimburse her for lost wages. (at the going rate for a scretary if he's determined to be a prick about it)

I don't even know that she sacrificed anything. There's plenty of women looking to get 'married well' so they don't have to work and stand on their own feet. There's no sacrifice to them, they get to live the life of Paris Hilton, shopping without having an income etc. I'm not saying this is the case for ljg's example, but there's plenty of women who actively seek to not have to do jack sh*t. I don't feel the least bit sorry for these people when their sugar daddy packs up and leave. If you based your life on marriage and decided to not amount to a productive human being yourself; @#!* you.

Yet again, this isn't relevant to ljg's example at all, I know nothing about neither of these people. It is however my very strong opinion that money and wealth belongs to the person who created it. No, being a house wife isn't a $500k/year job. Especially if you're not doing house work to begin with, that'd done by Carmen the illegal maid.

The more I talk to women about these kind of things, the more reassured I become I'll never want to marry any of you.

Technically Paris Hilton has an income....

Once you get married, saying that the wealth and money belongs to you because you earned it will create a lot of dissent and possibly grounds for divorce. If your wife has to stay home to take care of the house and kids and little things like grocery shopping while you're at work all day, I'd say thats splitting it about equally. All because she isn't getting paid for her work, doesn't make it less valuable that what you are doing for a salary.

Even if you do have help like a housekeeper, I highly doubt any of us will end up with live in chefs, nannies, and gardners as well. There is still a lot to be done around the house. Additionally, more and more people don't want nannies because they actually want to be raising their own children. I'd say raising a child to be a useful contributing member of society can be a full time job.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ljg on July 12, 2007, 06:42:29 AM
How is it his stuff if she sacrificed her independence and self-reliance and spent 20 years catering to him so that he could become that bigwig executive?  At the very least he should reimburse her for lost wages. (at the going rate for a scretary if he's determined to be a prick about it)

I don't even know that she sacrificed anything. There's plenty of women looking to get 'married well' so they don't have to work and stand on their own feet. There's no sacrifice to them, they get to live the life of Paris Hilton, shopping without having an income etc. I'm not saying this is the case for ljg's example, but there's plenty of women who actively seek to not have to do jack sh*t. I don't feel the least bit sorry for these people when their sugar daddy packs up and leave. If you based your life on marriage and decided to not amount to a productive human being yourself; @#!* you.

Yet again, this isn't relevant to ljg's example at all, I know nothing about neither of these people. It is however my very strong opinion that money and wealth belongs to the person who created it. No, being a house wife isn't a $500k/year job. Especially if you're not doing house work to begin with, that'd done by Carmen the illegal maid.

The more I talk to women about these kind of things, the more reassured I become I'll never want to marry any of you.

I don't think it's quite so black and white...

Let's take my mother, for example. Brilliant woman- she grew up in poverty, worked her way through one of the top colleges in MA, became a CPA and met my father while working as an intern at his accounting firm. They got married when she was 21, had me when she was 23, and had my sister when she was 26. When it got to the point where paying for care for me (and eventually my sister) was costing more than my mother was making at work, her and my father made a joint decision that she would stay home to raise us while my father continued on the partner track at work.

28 years later, my father owns his own accounting firm and is a big player in the accounting world in my state, and my mother "dabbles" in private accounting. She hasn't worked as a CPA since I was a baby, but has kept her certification. I would argue that her job as a mother MORE than warrants a "salary"- between me and my sister she was always on the run, cleaning, cooking, doing the errands, driving us to school and picking us up, bringing us to play dates, doctors appointments, after school activities, sports games in high school...you get the picture. Most of the time, because of my father's long work hours, she did this with little to no help from him (I LOVE my father more than anything, we have a great relationship, but the truth is that he wasn't around much when I was growing up). My mother, being the intelligent woman that she is, also handles most of my parent's investments- it's because of her smart choices that both my sister and I were able to graduate college with no debt (if she had gone with my father's wishes the money would have been lost in the stock market), and my parents live a wonderful life- they're constantly travelling around the world (most recent trips were to Australia, New Zealand and Alaska, and next on the list is China), doing work on our house, buying each other wonderful presents "just because", etc.

So, if (God forbid) my parents got divorced, could you really argue that my Dad's wealth belongs to him and only him? Would my mother deserve nothing because my parents decided AS A COUPLE that the best thing for the family was for her to raise us, since my dad was making more $$ at the time? I have no doubt that if my mother had stayed in the working world she would have climbed the corporate latter and made big bucks- just doesn't seem fair to say that all of my parents' money really belongs to my dad because he was the one working.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Sam P. Huntington on July 12, 2007, 07:22:37 AM
Say your girlfriend or boyfriend is anti-prenup. What do you do to convince them to sign one? Pre-marriage counseling?
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 12, 2007, 07:49:33 AM
Technically Paris Hilton has an income....
Yeah, but just because she's famous for being dumb. I was more thinking about the partying and shopping with no regard to where the money comes from.

Quote
Once you get married, saying that the wealth and money belongs to you because you earned it will create a lot of dissent and possibly grounds for divorce.
Which is one of the reasons I'm not getting married.

Quote
If your wife has to stay home to take care of the house and kids and little things like grocery shopping while you're at work all day, I'd say thats splitting it about equally.
Yeah, taking care of the kids and doing some grocery shopping certainly equals a 90 hour week as a corporate lawyer, or whatever. So essentially, being house wife for an industrial worker is a job worth $15k a year, but being Donald Trump's wife is a job worth $25million a year? @#!* no.

Quote
All because she isn't getting paid for her work, doesn't make it less valuable that what you are doing for a salary.
Actually, it does.

Quote
Even if you do have help like a housekeeper, I highly doubt any of us will end up with live in chefs, nannies, and gardners as well. There is still a lot to be done around the house.
You frigging got to be kidding me.

Quote
Additionally, more and more people don't want nannies because they actually want to be raising their own children. I'd say raising a child to be a useful contributing member of society can be a full time job.
Full time job? No. Honorable job, sure it is. Not saying they shouldn't get anything. But saying that being a wife / housewife automatically equals whatever job your spouse has is just ridiculous.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: GraphiteDirigible on July 12, 2007, 08:01:49 AM
How is it his stuff if she sacrificed her independence and self-reliance and spent 20 years catering to him so that he could become that bigwig executive?  At the very least he should reimburse her for lost wages. (at the going rate for a scretary if he's determined to be a prick about it)

I don't even know that she sacrificed anything. There's plenty of women looking to get 'married well' so they don't have to work and stand on their own feet. There's no sacrifice to them, they get to live the life of Paris Hilton, shopping without having an income etc. I'm not saying this is the case for ljg's example, but there's plenty of women who actively seek to not have to do jack sh*t. I don't feel the least bit sorry for these people when their sugar daddy packs up and leave. If you based your life on marriage and decided to not amount to a productive human being yourself; @#!* you.

Yet again, this isn't relevant to ljg's example at all, I know nothing about neither of these people. It is however my very strong opinion that money and wealth belongs to the person who created it. No, being a house wife isn't a $500k/year job. Especially if you're not doing house work to begin with, that'd done by Carmen the illegal maid.

The more I talk to women about these kind of things, the more reassured I become I'll never want to marry any of you.

Yeah, but you get your rocks off by watching Ultimate Fighting anyway, right?
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: flyaway on July 12, 2007, 08:27:48 AM
But it's not just about how much money cleaning/raising kids is worth.  It's also about the professional sacrifices the woman made to do that.  ljg's post is a great example of that.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 12, 2007, 08:38:15 AM
How is it his stuff if she sacrificed her independence and self-reliance and spent 20 years catering to him so that he could become that bigwig executive?  At the very least he should reimburse her for lost wages. (at the going rate for a scretary if he's determined to be a prick about it)

I don't even know that she sacrificed anything. There's plenty of women looking to get 'married well' so they don't have to work and stand on their own feet. There's no sacrifice to them, they get to live the life of Paris Hilton, shopping without having an income etc. I'm not saying this is the case for ljg's example, but there's plenty of women who actively seek to not have to do jack sh*t. I don't feel the least bit sorry for these people when their sugar daddy packs up and leave. If you based your life on marriage and decided to not amount to a productive human being yourself; @#!* you.

Yet again, this isn't relevant to ljg's example at all, I know nothing about neither of these people. It is however my very strong opinion that money and wealth belongs to the person who created it. No, being a house wife isn't a $500k/year job. Especially if you're not doing house work to begin with, that'd done by Carmen the illegal maid.

The more I talk to women about these kind of things, the more reassured I become I'll never want to marry any of you.

Yeah, but you get your rocks off by watching Ultimate Fighting anyway, right?

Ooooh yeah *moans*

But it's not just about how much money cleaning/raising kids is worth.  It's also about the professional sacrifices the woman made to do that.  ljg's post is a great example of that.

Sure, and I've never said what I say apply to all women, but it does unquestionably apply to many.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Amy Winehouse on July 12, 2007, 08:40:47 AM
But it's not just about how much money cleaning/raising kids is worth.  It's also about the professional sacrifices the woman made to do that.  ljg's post is a great example of that.

That's why housewives should earn a salary from their husbands.  If the woman doesn't save that money and gets screwed over in a divorce, that's her fault.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: John Blackthorne on July 12, 2007, 08:42:45 AM
But it's not just about how much money cleaning/raising kids is worth.  It's also about the professional sacrifices the woman made to do that.  ljg's post is a great example of that.

That's why housewives should earn a salary from their husbands.  If the woman doesn't save that money and gets screwed over in a divorce, that's her fault.

what a clown
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Amy Winehouse on July 12, 2007, 08:44:30 AM
Say your girlfriend or boyfriend is anti-prenup. What do you do to convince them to sign one? Pre-marriage counseling?

My boyfriend is anti-prenup, but I've simply informed him that it is a stipulation of marriage and upon proposing he accepts that stipulation.  Maybe that's why he hasn't proposed  :D

But seriously, I just told him that it was very important to me that certain things (like what would happen to my inheritance should I pass away and he remarries) be worked out in advance and in writing.  Are there certain things she doesn't like about prenups, like distribution of income in case of divorce, or just the overall idea?  It'd be way easier if there were just certain issues she took umbrage against.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: John Blackthorne on July 12, 2007, 08:45:03 AM

everyone has been thinking about salary this and salary that.  what about investment income?  real estate, stocks, whathaveyou.  if one partner makes a shrewd investment or a series of shrewd investments, why should the other partner have a 50% interest in the income from that investment?
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Amy Winehouse on July 12, 2007, 08:46:54 AM
But it's not just about how much money cleaning/raising kids is worth.  It's also about the professional sacrifices the woman made to do that.  ljg's post is a great example of that.

That's why housewives should earn a salary from their husbands.  If the woman doesn't save that money and gets screwed over in a divorce, that's her fault.

what a clown

While it was originally meant fascetiously, I do feel that if a husband expects his wife to stay at home with the babies, provided she is giving up a potentially lucrative career, he should provide her with some sort of compensation outide the amount necessary for upkeep, rearing the kids, etc.  

-OR-

This is what I would do: siphon off money from the joint account every month into another account of which the husband is not aware.  If he decides he wants a divorce...oops!  I have tons of money he doesn't know about.  
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Amy Winehouse on July 12, 2007, 08:49:11 AM

everyone has been thinking about salary this and salary that.  what about investment income?  real estate, stocks, whathaveyou.  if one partner makes a shrewd investment or a series of shrewd investments, why should the other partner have a 50% interest in the income from that investment?

Agreed.  But sometimes life is not fair, like how you earn money and it is taxed, then you put the leftover money into stocks and then they are taxed again when you sell them. 

However, the agreement with my BF is that he will retire and become a househusband when we start a family.  His job will be managing our investments, but we both know that he will just be playing with stocks for which I've provided the purchase money.  I would damn well expect my share of the profits from his schrewd investing.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 12, 2007, 09:00:10 AM
But it's not just about how much money cleaning/raising kids is worth.  It's also about the professional sacrifices the woman made to do that.  ljg's post is a great example of that.

I'd agree, this should be taken into consideration.  I still agree with everything e is saying though.  I don't think the woman is entitled to nothing, I just don't think she's entitled to half in every situation.  For example, the girl I've been going out with for a while is going to grad school for social work.  She'll come out making 45k or so, while I'll be closer to 200k.  Say 6-8 years from now we get married and start having kids, she's making 60k or whatever, I'm at 300k.  She quits and raises the kids for 5-10 years, then we get divorced.  I would say she's entitled to what her salary would have been for those years she was raising the kids, not half of mine.

This is my point as well. Although I'm trying to be less subtle and diplomatic about it. Not saying they don't deserve anything, but marrying someone in a high income position shouldn't be an investment in itself.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: John Blackthorne on July 12, 2007, 09:05:14 AM
But it's not just about how much money cleaning/raising kids is worth.  It's also about the professional sacrifices the woman made to do that.  ljg's post is a great example of that.

That's why housewives should earn a salary from their husbands.  If the woman doesn't save that money and gets screwed over in a divorce, that's her fault.

what a clown

While it was originally meant fascetiously, I do feel that if a husband expects his wife to stay at home with the babies, provided she is giving up a potentially lucrative career, he should provide her with some sort of compensation outide the amount necessary for upkeep, rearing the kids, etc.  

-OR-

This is what I would do: siphon off money from the joint account every month into another account of which the husband is not aware.  If he decides he wants a divorce...oops!  I have tons of money he doesn't know about.  

oh, i wasn't responding to the substance of your post.  i was remarking that Amy Winehouse is a clown.

and, i wasn't really talking about the situation in which one person has an inheritance to play with. 
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 12, 2007, 09:07:34 AM
Quote
This is what I would do: siphon off money from the joint account every month into another account of which the husband is not aware.  If he decides he wants a divorce...oops!  I have tons of money he doesn't know about. 

That's a good way to end up with an OJ divorce :)
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: John Blackthorne on July 12, 2007, 09:08:59 AM

in all seriousness, I want to know why it seems that some women on here believe that they are entitled to the opportunity cost of choosing to have children.  why should you be paid foregone wages?  why should someone subsidize your decision?  make the choice.  have kids or have the career.  have kids and take time off from the career when they are little.  why are you requiring that you be paid?  generally someone pays you a salary, or you make profits from your own business, because you add value for your employer or for your business.  i have no idea how bringing your own little brats into an already heavily populated world is adding value in any sense of the term.  
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Amy Winehouse on July 12, 2007, 09:09:22 AM
But it's not just about how much money cleaning/raising kids is worth.  It's also about the professional sacrifices the woman made to do that.  ljg's post is a great example of that.

That's why housewives should earn a salary from their husbands.  If the woman doesn't save that money and gets screwed over in a divorce, that's her fault.

what a clown

While it was originally meant fascetiously, I do feel that if a husband expects his wife to stay at home with the babies, provided she is giving up a potentially lucrative career, he should provide her with some sort of compensation outide the amount necessary for upkeep, rearing the kids, etc.  

-OR-

This is what I would do: siphon off money from the joint account every month into another account of which the husband is not aware.  If he decides he wants a divorce...oops!  I have tons of money he doesn't know about.  

oh, i wasn't responding to the substance of your post.  i was remarking that Amy Winehouse is a clown.

and, i wasn't really talking about the situation in which one person has an inheritance to play with. 

All good, she is a total clown and a crackhead with serious problems but I love her and her beehive anyway!  

And boys, I'm an outlier on this whole thing because I plan on being the breadwinner of the family.  I also don't like alimony and most of the time think that women who get f-ed in the divorce deserve it for not being getting a prenup or being shrewd during the marriage.  But I'm 1) weird like that and 2) definitely not representative of females
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Amy Winehouse on July 12, 2007, 09:09:58 AM
Quote
This is what I would do: siphon off money from the joint account every month into another account of which the husband is not aware.  If he decides he wants a divorce...oops!  I have tons of money he doesn't know about. 

That's a good way to end up with an OJ divorce :)

oh my god that's hilarious*


*but it probably shouldn't be
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 12, 2007, 09:18:07 AM
And boys, I'm an outlier on this whole thing because I plan on being the breadwinner of the family.  I also don't like alimony and most of the time think that women who get f-ed in the divorce deserve it for not being getting a prenup or being shrewd during the marriage.  But I'm 1) weird like that and 2) definitely not representative of females

Well, I think both should be the breadwinner of a family. The entire concept of housewife is sort of antiquated. Maternity leave when the kid is an infant is a good thing, but being home and cuddling your baby till he/she starts school isn't the way it's supposed to be anyway. And put the bastard in a kindergarten instead of a nanny, social skills = win.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Amy Winehouse on July 12, 2007, 09:32:04 AM

in all seriousness, I want to know why it seems that some women on here believe that they are entitled to the opportunity cost of choosing to have children.  why should you be paid foregone wages?  why should someone subsidize your decision?  make the choice.  have kids or have the career.  have kids and take time off from the career when they are little.  why are you requiring that you be paid?  generally someone pays you a salary, or you make profits from your own business, because you add value for your employer or for your business.  i have no idea how bringing your own little brats into an already heavily populated world is adding value in any sense of the term.  

I cannot make broad generalizations as to the thought process of all women behind bearing and rearing children.  However, from my perspective, having children within a relationship or marriage exceeds the desire of a single person and stems more from mutual desires of the couple.  Were it up to me, I would not have any kids of my own.  I would adopt them all and they would have a nanny for when we are at work.  However, part of being in a relationship is making sacrifices for your partner that are necessary for their satisfaction and happiness.  For me, having children is something I would be willing to do for my partner.  However, I am not of the opinion that the woman should quit her job to rear children; I think that maternity leave + childcare are more than adequate.  

For many women, there are societal, ethnic, and familial pressures to stay at home with the babies.  I do not think that women should be compensated with the foregone wages from her career, as there are consequences that go along with each decision.  However, I think in many cases there is immense pressure on the mother from the father to stay at home with the kids.  In a lot of cases, it is simply because of an image the husband wants to project.  "I'm a partner at X firm and I don't want my woman having to work, dammit!" or "but volunteering is so much more fulfilling, don't you think?"  In such instances where a woman feels that she is being precluded from re-entering the workforce because of the wishes of her husband, I do think that some sort of compensation is in order.  Granted, the woman could divorce him or call his bluff and get a job, but do we reall ywant to disrupt an otherwise-harmonious marriage because Susie wants to wear a suit and go to an office?  That particular cost-benefit analysis does not provide adequate justification, in my opinion.

One could also argue that a wife (even without kids in the equation) who provides maid, laundry, chef, and sexual services to her husband is fulfilling a service and should be compensated for her work.  However, others would have a reasonable argument stating that the marriage and the benefits it provides her (health insurance, shelter, food, etc.) are adequate compensation for her services.  I still think that a woman who is discouraged from entering or re-entering the workforce because of her husband should hold out for some sort of compensation, whether through vacations or clothes or a black american express card.  

Regarding your question about women feeling entiteld to the opportunity cost of having children:

Until men can have babies on their own, women are going to hold the trump card in this argument.  Fact is, men cannot have babies without women.  A woman can go to a sperm bank and have a baby without a man.  Babies are required for the continuance of the human population, period.  Plus someone has to pay for our social sercurity!  Seriously, though, having responsibility for the continuation of the human race is an heavy burden for some.  Women as a whole do not have the luxury of choosing work over family.  Certainly individual women have such control, but as a whole, women are vital to the maintainence of the population.  I look at it like this: women must have babies for the good of society (though preferably not more than 2 per couple--just replace yourselves people, don't be selfish).  Therefore, women must be allowed to have babies.  What constitutes such allowance varies from culture to culture, nation to nation, religion to religion, etc.  BUT for women in a capitalist, free-market economy, there are some women who require incentives for the benefits of leaving the workforce to outweigh the costs.  For some of those women, creating life and unconditional love and baby power are enough.  For others, something different is needed.  I'm not in a position to prescribe what is needed or reasonable, but I think that is why some women get upset when force to choose between a paycheck and a baby.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Amy Winehouse on July 12, 2007, 09:33:29 AM
And boys, I'm an outlier on this whole thing because I plan on being the breadwinner of the family.  I also don't like alimony and most of the time think that women who get f-ed in the divorce deserve it for not being getting a prenup or being shrewd during the marriage.  But I'm 1) weird like that and 2) definitely not representative of females

Well, I think both should be the breadwinner of a family. The entire concept of housewife is sort of antiquated. Maternity leave when the kid is an infant is a good thing, but being home and cuddling your baby till he/she starts school isn't the way it's supposed to be anyway. And put the bastard in a kindergarten instead of a nanny, social skills = win.

I entirely agree (esp. since boyfriend is in finance) but he believes someone should be home with the kids.  I like him enough to allow this whim by graciously permitting him to quit his job and rear the kids.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: GraphiteDirigible on July 12, 2007, 09:34:43 AM
"In five ways should a wife, be ministered to by her husband: by respect, by courtesy, by faithfulness, by handing over authority to her, by providing her with ornaments. In these five ways does the wife minister to her husband: her duties are well performed by hospitality to the kin of both, by faithfulness, by watching over the goods he brings and by skill and industry in discharging all business." - Sigiloydda Sutta (Buddhist Text)
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Amy Winehouse on July 12, 2007, 09:37:57 AM
"In five ways should a wife, be ministered to by her husband: by respect, by courtesy, by faithfulness, by handing over authority to her, by providing her with ornaments. In these five ways does the wife minister to her husband: her duties are well performed by hospitality to the kin of both, by faithfulness, by watching over the goods he brings and by skill and industry in discharging all business." - Sigiloydda Sutta (Buddhist Text)

= working at Skadden Arps
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Amy Winehouse on July 12, 2007, 09:38:40 AM
Aren't babies supposedly a thing of value in themselves?

Why the double compensation?

just asking.

some chicks don't dig babies.  Or you could argue that men are receiving double compensation for getting both the paycheck and the child's love.

I think a more interesting topic is what happens to the woman after the kids have left the nest? 
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Amy Winehouse on July 12, 2007, 09:46:26 AM
Aren't babies supposedly a thing of value in themselves?

Why the double compensation?

just asking.

some chicks don't dig babies.  Or you could argue that men are receiving double compensation for getting both the paycheck and the child's love.

no one is forcing anyone to have babies.  I hope.

One partner (let's be gender neutral, please) can provide economic support while the other provides service support.  Both can simultaneously provide nurturing, education, life experience, and so on.  Both receive the benefit of the love and respect from the children.

The real issue, imho, is that one partner in a divorce faces the possibility of being left with no economic support.  Since I'm fair, I don't want to see that happen.  The stay at home partner deserves something.  Half?  Who knows.

OIC now.  You missed out on the earlier discussion, during which I argued that women should either siphon away moeny during the marriage, have a prenup, or be compensated during marriage for the services rendered in the home.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 12, 2007, 09:51:04 AM
The stay at home partner deserves something.  Half?  Who knows.

You know, in all honesty, there's plenty of situations where the partner actually does deserve half. If you both started on common grounds, and your spouse built a fortune while you were at home, but providing support and family and all of that, I actually think you deserve your share of the pie. However, if you pull an Anna Nicole and marry a billionaire sucker for his money, you didn't contribute jack *&^%.

At the end of the day, a prenup offers a possibility for both parties to come to an agreement while they're on amicable terms. If you end up together forever, great. If you don't, you did the settlement while you cared for each other not when you hated each other. That has to be in benefit for both parties.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Amy Winehouse on July 12, 2007, 09:56:39 AM

The stay at home partner deserves something.  Half?  Who knows.

It should be tied to how well he/she does with raising the kids.  Kid makes honor roll - 5k bonus.  Hits a home run in little league - 1k bonus.  Gets suspended - 3k deduction, etc.

dont't forget to add how well the wife does in maintaining herself!

each pound lost = +$1000
each pound gained = - $1000
gets facials, dyes hair = +full maintainence costs
goes gray = hell, divorce
volunteers with boss's wife = +$5000
pisses off boss's wife = -$10000
etc.

Edit: I have to leave this quicksand and pack.  I'll catch up on the new arguments later, gators.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: John Blackthorne on July 12, 2007, 10:05:50 AM

in all seriousness, I want to know why it seems that some women on here believe that they are entitled to the opportunity cost of choosing to have children.  why should you be paid foregone wages?  why should someone subsidize your decision?  make the choice.  have kids or have the career.  have kids and take time off from the career when they are little.  why are you requiring that you be paid?  generally someone pays you a salary, or you make profits from your own business, because you add value for your employer or for your business.  i have no idea how bringing your own little brats into an already heavily populated world is adding value in any sense of the term.  

I cannot make broad generalizations as to the thought process of all women behind bearing and rearing children.  However, from my perspective, having children within a relationship or marriage exceeds the desire of a single person and stems more from mutual desires of the couple.  Were it up to me, I would not have any kids of my own.  I would adopt them all and they would have a nanny for when we are at work.  However, part of being in a relationship is making sacrifices for your partner that are necessary for their satisfaction and happiness.  For me, having children is something I would be willing to do for my partner.  However, I am not of the opinion that the woman should quit her job to rear children; I think that maternity leave + childcare are more than adequate.  

For many women, there are societal, ethnic, and familial pressures to stay at home with the babies.  I do not think that women should be compensated with the foregone wages from her career, as there are consequences that go along with each decision.  However, I think in many cases there is immense pressure on the mother from the father to stay at home with the kids.  In a lot of cases, it is simply because of an image the husband wants to project.  "I'm a partner at X firm and I don't want my woman having to work, dammit!" or "but volunteering is so much more fulfilling, don't you think?"  In such instances where a woman feels that she is being precluded from re-entering the workforce because of the wishes of her husband, I do think that some sort of compensation is in order.  Granted, the woman could divorce him or call his bluff and get a job, but do we reall ywant to disrupt an otherwise-harmonious marriage because Susie wants to wear a suit and go to an office?  That particular cost-benefit analysis does not provide adequate justification, in my opinion.

One could also argue that a wife (even without kids in the equation) who provides maid, laundry, chef, and sexual services to her husband is fulfilling a service and should be compensated for her work.  However, others would have a reasonable argument stating that the marriage and the benefits it provides her (health insurance, shelter, food, etc.) are adequate compensation for her services.  I still think that a woman who is discouraged from entering or re-entering the workforce because of her husband should hold out for some sort of compensation, whether through vacations or clothes or a black american express card.  

Regarding your question about women feeling entiteld to the opportunity cost of having children:

Until men can have babies on their own, women are going to hold the trump card in this argument.  Fact is, men cannot have babies without women.  A woman can go to a sperm bank and have a baby without a man.  Babies are required for the continuance of the human population, period.  Plus someone has to pay for our social sercurity!  Seriously, though, having responsibility for the continuation of the human race is an heavy burden for some.  Women as a whole do not have the luxury of choosing work over family.  Certainly individual women have such control, but as a whole, women are vital to the maintainence of the population.  I look at it like this: women must have babies for the good of society (though preferably not more than 2 per couple--just replace yourselves people, don't be selfish).  Therefore, women must be allowed to have babies.  What constitutes such allowance varies from culture to culture, nation to nation, religion to religion, etc.  BUT for women in a capitalist, free-market economy, there are some women who require incentives for the benefits of leaving the workforce to outweigh the costs.  For some of those women, creating life and unconditional love and baby power are enough.  For others, something different is needed.  I'm not in a position to prescribe what is needed or reasonable, but I think that is why some women get upset when force to choose between a paycheck and a baby.

i got a real response!
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Too Embarrassed on July 12, 2007, 10:45:55 AM
Ok - I know I'll probably get bashed by most of you but why the hell will any woman agree to be a stay-at-home mom same for husbands.  Maybe I'm too much of an ambitious, independent person to understand but why will I want to depend on my spouse who can just decided to end the marriage and I'm left to pretty much start over? 

The man will have no respect for you knowing that you are depending on him to pay the bills! 

I don't get it!
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Astro on July 12, 2007, 11:09:49 AM
Yet another argument against marriage.   :P

Well, yes, if you don't like that.

Well yeah, I fit the evidence to my conclusion. 


intellectualdishonestypwn3d!1!!1
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: The Poster on July 12, 2007, 02:12:15 PM
Yet another argument against marriage. :P

Well, yes, if you don't like that.

Well yeah, I fit the evidence to my conclusion.

don't get married.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: OCLawGirl on July 12, 2007, 04:49:58 PM
Some people who get divorced regret not having one.  In the "love" stages of a relationship, you are blinded by the fairy tales, till death do us part bullsh*t!  Once you are getting divorce, the Mr Charming is not the same.  He becomes this azzsh*t and before you know it it's too late.  You see him walking away with half your sh*t!

Personally, I ecommend hidding your $$$.  No joint accounts, no joint credit card, buy your house b4 you get married.  Look out for #1 - YOU! You don't want a divorce to ruin your life. 

That whole - if this relationship is forever, why do you need a pre-nup?  It's because the marriage is not guarantee.  Let's be REALISTC!

Assuming there is no prenup, will having separate accounts mean that you keep the money in your account after the divorce?

Whatever is in your separate account will be divided.  However, the separate account makes it easy for you to take money out and hide it before sh*t hits the fan! hehehe! ;)
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: John Blackthorne on July 12, 2007, 08:00:32 PM
Yet another argument against marriage. :P

Well, yes, if you don't like that.

Well yeah, I fit the evidence to my conclusion.

don't get married.

I would give that advice to most of the people in this thread, especially Turd & Keno.

don't lump me together with him you mofo.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Alamo on July 13, 2007, 08:27:44 AM
Ok - I know I'll probably get bashed by most of you but why the hell will any woman agree to be a stay-at-home mom same for husbands.  Maybe I'm too much of an ambitious, independent person to understand but why will I want to depend on my spouse who can just decided to end the marriage and I'm left to pretty much start over? 

The man will have no respect for you knowing that you are depending on him to pay the bills! 

I don't get it!

This assumes money is the only means of commanding respect.  If you feel this way, you definitely shouldn't get married either, along with Turd and his twin brother Keno.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 13, 2007, 09:01:03 AM
don't lump me together with him you mofo.
I'd like to fully support this request.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: michelle d on July 13, 2007, 12:51:42 PM
But it's not just about how much money cleaning/raising kids is worth.  It's also about the professional sacrifices the woman made to do that.  ljg's post is a great example of that.

I'd agree, this should be taken into consideration.  I still agree with everything e is saying though.  I don't think the woman is entitled to nothing, I just don't think she's entitled to half in every situation.  For example, the girl I've been going out with for a while is going to grad school for social work.  She'll come out making 45k or so, while I'll be closer to 200k.  Say 6-8 years from now we get married and start having kids, she's making 60k or whatever, I'm at 300k.  She quits and raises the kids for 5-10 years, then we get divorced.  I would say she's entitled to what her salary would have been for those years she was raising the kids, not half of mine.

What about the house you live in that's entirely unaffordable on a social worker salary?  Is she entitled to only 1/5 of that because that's the value of the house (or condo, rather) she could've got on her own salary?  And it's not just the lost wages but the re-entry fee.  Someone who takes ten years off to see three kids to kindergarten isn't going to make as much as someone who's been steadily climbing the ladder nor are they likely to have the same opportunities.  And it's ridiculous to say a divorcee deserves half if the partner makes $50,000 but not if the partner makes $300,000.  If you don't want to run the risk of paying half to someone who chose a less lucrative but equally important career path then just don't marry a poor person.

And no, I don't think Anna Nicole deserved half her senile husband's wealth, but that isn't even a divorce issue (if somebody gets married of sound mind and leaves millions to his gold digging wife, that's his business, not his kids') and that sort of over the top gold digging is rare.  The vast majority of divorces are going to be between couples who went into it as a legit marriage and functioned as a unit for some amount of time.  When the unit dissolves you can't quantify what really belong to whom because it was just that - a single entity.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 13, 2007, 12:56:22 PM
It is a single unit because you choose to look at it as a single unit. I choose to look at it not as "two people becoming one" but "two people deciding to live together". I don't cease to be an individual person because I love someone. If I walk into a relationship with millions and she walks into it as a middle school teacher, that is also how we will walk out of it. Neither me nor anyone else here is supporting hanging the 'home staying' spouse high and dry, however getting a divorce isn't supposed to be like winning the lottery either.

Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: The Poster on July 13, 2007, 01:13:36 PM
It is a single unit because you choose to look at it as a single unit. I choose to look at it not as "two people becoming one" but "two people deciding to live together". I don't cease to be an individual person because I love someone. If I walk into a relationship with millions and she walks into it as a middle school teacher, that is also how we will walk out of it. Neither me nor anyone else here is supporting hanging the 'home staying' spouse high and dry, however getting a divorce isn't supposed to be like winning the lottery either.



it is a single unit because the law treats it that way, no matter how much you try to work around it with a prenup.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 13, 2007, 03:04:34 PM
it is a single unit because the law treats it that way, no matter how much you try to work around it with a prenup.

This isn't about the law surrounding it, it's about the interpersonal relationship. We're not even arguing what the law is, everyone knows that - hence the thread itself.

Ever hear of living together without being married?
Considering that's what I've been campaigning in every single relationship thread to this date; yes I have.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 13, 2007, 03:08:53 PM
Ever hear of living together without being married?
Considering that's what I've been campaigning in every single relationship thread to this date; yes I have.

Then what is your problem with the current legal view of marriage and divorce?

None.

Edit: actually, I do have one; gender neutrality. But that's outside the scope of this passage :p
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: michelle d on July 13, 2007, 03:27:09 PM
If you don't want to run the risk of paying half to someone who chose a less lucrative but equally important career path then just don't marry a poor person.

Not disagreeing with other parts (necessarily), but it doesn't really matter if the partner is poor or not.

Ex.  my former neighbor got royally screwed in divorce even though his wife made more than him and had more assets.  They both ran their own businesses, but somehow she got half of his and he got none of hers.

That's more of a philosophical stance than a personal one.  Your ability to get screwed has a lot to do with how vicious your ex becomes and how good their lawyer is, not, obviously, by how much they make going into the marriage.  In that case your neighbor should've found a meaner junkyard dog to go to court on his behalf.  If both partners are working at the time of the divorce and neither made sizable sacrifices (i.e. I see a big difference between the school teacher who married the med student and supported him through school versus the two execs who get together in their thirties and dont' quit to have kids) it's not appropriate to gore an ex for money.  In that case whatever mutual purchases and investments were made during the marriage should be split.

But that's idealized, really.  When you bring emotions into it, or if one person was a cheating dog, or was heavily involved in managing or improving the other's business, etc, it gets more complicated.  That's the only case in which I'd see a prenup being a possibility -- that is, when there are substantial business issues or interests accrued before marriage that effect more than the couple (kids, parents, business partners, etc).  This is a pretty infrequent occurance, though.  I don't see being a high wage earner or having a million dollar home as a compelling reasons for a prenup.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 13, 2007, 03:37:33 PM
That's the only case in which I'd see a prenup being a possibility

Hmm, no flame intended, but could you mention a single argument against having a prenup other than the rejection of reality refusing to accept a marriage could end?
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 13, 2007, 03:49:32 PM
1. it takes effort/money to create
No, not really. You could buy a $25 book and write your own. I'm guessing even you got $25 to make.

Quote
2. it makes the person with more money more likely to leave you
So, if your spouse no longer loves you and wants to be with you, you'd prefer having some leverage to force him/her to stay? Man, that's sad.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: michelle d on July 13, 2007, 03:57:44 PM
That's the only case in which I'd see a prenup being a possibility

Hmm, no flame intended, but could you mention a single argument against having a prenup other than the rejection of reality refusing to accept a marriage could end?

Uh, the whole premise of marriage?  If I don't want a family or a traditional set up, I won't get married.  Easy as pie.  Most people get married for a few basic reasons - legal benefits, children, tradition.  If you have kids, that automatically makes you a permanent unit.  You may fall out of love, but you'll share those kids forever.  You've established permanency that involves more people than yourself and your partner, and if you blow it or it doesn't work out, why should you get to hoard everything you think is yours?  Likewise what's the point of signing on for the legal and social benefits of marriage if you think it's all about making sure you go home with as many cookies as you brought to the picnic rather than treating the picnic as a place where you share your cookies with someone you love enough to legally marry?  Nobody's forcing you to take it legit, after all.

And regardless, the average age of marriage is about 27 these days.  Most people in their mid- to late-20s don't have massive assests, business holdings, and inheritances that they need to protect in the event of a divorce.  So how about the reverse -- what's an argument for a pre-nup in one of those vast-majority-of-cases other than accepting the reality that you may get divorced and you're overly concerned with your own interests?  Again, I think there's a small number of cases in which a prenup is appropriate, but by and large these are going to be later-life second marriages in which the spouses want to protect assests for kids from previous marriages.  For everyone else, why in the world would two 27-year-olds of average- to high-income need a prenup?  
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 13, 2007, 04:13:38 PM
1. if you expect the average person to be able to write a prenup that will hold up in court, you have way too much faith in humanity.
2. yes, it is sad. But you wanted an argument against a prenup.
Unfortunately, I guess you're right on both accounts.

Uh, the whole premise of marriage?  If I don't want a family or a traditional set up, I won't get married.  Easy as pie.  Most people get married for a few basic reasons - legal benefits, children, tradition.  If you have kids, that automatically makes you a permanent unit. You may fall out of love, but you'll share those kids forever.
Nothing of this would be changed by a prenup.

Quote
You've established permanency that involves more people than yourself and your partner, and if you blow it or it doesn't work out, why should you get to hoard everything you think is yours?
Yet, that permanency doesn't include the marriage. Divorces happen. And they're actually for the better. Even from the kids point of view, they will be better off with divorced parents than married parents who no longer love each other. Parents can't hide their problems from the children, no matter how hard they try.

Quote
Likewise what's the point of signing on for the legal and social benefits of marriage if you think it's all about making sure you go home with as many cookies as you brought to the picnic rather than treating the picnic as a place where you share your cookies with someone you love enough to legally marry?
It's not all about taking your cookies with you. It's about making a fair settlement for both parties while you love and respect each other, when you still want the best for your spouse. Essentially, it's the exact same settlement you will have at divorce day, except that day both parties are going into it with the mentality of nailing their former spouse's ass to the wall, in something that will turn into a legal bloodshed on way too many occasions.

It's about being prepared for reality.

Quote
And regardless, the average age of marriage is about 27 these days.  Most people in their mid- to late-20s don't have massive assests, business holdings, and inheritances that they need to protect in the event of a divorce.
Well, if you have $100million and your wife takes half, you'll survive. If you make $40k and your wife takes half of the *&^% you got plus alimony, you might have to go OJ on her ass.

Quote
So how about the reverse -- what's an argument for a pre-nup in one of those vast-majority-of-cases other than accepting the reality that you may get divorced and you're overly concerned with your own interests?
Any question that includes the phrase other than accepting the reality is null and void by sheer stupidity. (The question, not you.)

Quote
Again, I think there's a small number of cases in which a prenup is appropriate, but by and large these are going to be later-life second marriages in which the spouses want to protect assests for kids from previous marriages.
While this is certainly true, I still see it as a benefit if not equally essential to have all of this planned out beforehand. Yet again, a prenup isn't about keeping your spouse out of the candy shop, it's about making a fair division at a time where you both still care and respect each other. The alternative is doing it when you hate each other's guts.

Quote
For everyone else, why in the world would two 27-year-olds of average- to high-income need a prenup?
For reasons such as the neighbor-example mentioned above. Your spouse could get the best Denny Crane in the business and you might get the shitstick who barely completed Cooley. In a perfect world, with a perfect justice system there wouldn't be need for it. The world isn't perfect and the justice system generally rewards the hardest hitter. If you're not sure that's you, be prepared. That's really all there is about it. No, it's not romantic. But it's so much better than the alternative. And hey, if you live happily ever after, it's just a silly document in a bank box. No harm done.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on July 13, 2007, 05:48:52 PM
eh, i think a prenup is always appropriate.  love aside, marriage is a form of contractual agreement and should be treated as such.  i would have no problem if someone asked me to sign one--if fact, i'll probably be the one doing the asking.

and like bosco said, i don't think that ppl should automatically get half of everything.  of course ymmv given the various situations that could arise but whatever. 

i remember reading this article where this woman made significantly more than her husband.  he constantly called her a corporate drone, and always had something to say about her wanting to treat herself with someone (ie, she bought herself a mercedes, a car she'd always wanted and he complained so much that she took it back).  he talked bad about her money all the time--yet come the divorce, he wanted half.  a prenup would have done her good.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on July 13, 2007, 06:36:35 PM
a prenup would have done her good.

So when it's the man talking half the money, it's a bad thing?

 :P

nope.  i don't like when women take half the money either  ;)

i'm an equal opportunity prenup supporter :D
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Alamo on July 13, 2007, 06:37:27 PM
eh, i think a prenup is always appropriate.  love aside, marriage is a form of contractual agreement and should be treated as such....

Sad, sad, sad (and I realize that on this board, anyway, I'm in the minority on this issue).

Marriage should never be separated from love.

Marriage that truly deserves the title of marriage is so so so much more than a contractual agreement.  It is a union.  In this for-the-right-reasons type of marriage, the financial implications of destroying a union will pale in comparison to the psychological damage. 

The pre-nup is an escape clause.  By planning for escape from the beginning, you never fully enter into the union that marriage should be.

If you're marrying for social convenience, or because you want kids with 2 parents, or for tax reasons, go ahead.  I, for one, will refuse to acknowledge it as marriage.

::sits smugly atop his high horse::

(http://www.worth1000.com/entries/119000/119101EKMJ_w.jpg)
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: The Poster on July 13, 2007, 08:05:29 PM
Why is everyone ignoring the simple solution of just not getting married in the first place?
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: The Poster on July 13, 2007, 08:14:42 PM
Why is everyone ignoring the simple solution of just not getting married in the first place?

Romantic idealism? Locked into tradition?

both prolly. but it all goes back to the law. marriage is nothing but a legally binding agreement. take that away and the loving relationship and all the nice romantic stuff is still there...the idea of marriage is what people are after, but you can have that without the legal nonesense.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: The Poster on July 13, 2007, 08:18:30 PM
both prolly. but it all goes back to the law. marriage is nothing but a legally binding agreement. take that away and the loving relationship and all the nice romantic stuff is still there...the idea of marriage is what people are after, but you can have that without the legal nonesense.

titcr. This is the distinction I was trying to make a few pages back (now deleted).

you mean you agree? nice. now, stop purging the interesting and important stuff! you have an illness.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: The Poster on July 13, 2007, 08:34:05 PM
I still don't get why people get married, though. The only thing you can't get by living together outside of marriage is a tax break. Everything else can be written up. Can't see your sick live-in when s/he's in the hospital? Have a Hospital Visitation Authorization written up. Wills, Living Wills, joint tenancy with right of survivorship...it's all the same as marriage, but without the mess of a divorce.

My understanding was that it's only a tax break if one partner is working. (I might be confused though).

well, if both of you aren't working then there is no tax to break. :D

Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 14, 2007, 02:05:31 AM
Why is everyone ignoring the simple solution of just not getting married in the first place?

Well, sadly there are still many legal rights that you and your SO will only gain the benefit of from being married. That is of course both antiquated and discriminating, but it is still reality. There really needs to be a gender neutral civil union equal in rights to marriage, but without the religious implications, and no more "become one" bull. I don't even want to become one, I want to be myself, no matter how much I love said hypothetical chick.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Alamo on July 14, 2007, 08:35:43 AM
I still don't get why people get married, though. The only thing you can't get by living together outside of marriage is a tax break. Everything else can be written up. Can't see your sick live-in when s/he's in the hospital? Have a Hospital Visitation Authorization written up. Wills, Living Wills, joint tenancy with right of survivorship...it's all the same as marriage, but without the mess of a divorce.

My understanding was that it's only a tax break if one partner is working. (I might be confused though).

well, if both of you aren't working then there is no tax to break. :D



 ::)

If both are working, the incomes are joined so the second income is effectively taxed at a higher rate.

Or am I completely wrong?

Yes, it can work against families with two high earners.  But if you have one high earner (say $100K) and the other party earns very little (say $10K) then the couple is taxed at $55K/person, which works out better for the couple.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: The Poster on July 14, 2007, 01:41:03 PM
Why is everyone ignoring the simple solution of just not getting married in the first place?

Well, sadly there are still many legal rights that you and your SO will only gain the benefit of from being married. That is of course both antiquated and discriminating, but it is still reality. There really needs to be a gender neutral civil union equal in rights to marriage, but without the religious implications, and no more "become one" bull. I don't even want to become one, I want to be myself, no matter how much I love said hypothetical chick.

the only thing i can think of besides for the tax thing is health insurance through employment, and in Massachusetts at least we have a law that allows non-married couples of any gender to partake of those benefits.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: The Poster on July 14, 2007, 01:42:49 PM
the only thing i can think of besides for the tax thing is health insurance through employment, and in Massachusetts at least we have a law that allows non-married couples of any gender to partake of those benefits.

Many employers grant similar benefits, regardless of state requirements.

that too. so what other legal rights is he talking about?
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 15, 2007, 05:39:44 AM
the only thing i can think of
I guess this is where it went wrong.

Quote
that too. so what other legal rights is he talking about?

Visitational rights in hospitals
Power of medical decisions
Combined health insurance and sick leave from employers
Rights to inheritance in the case of death without a will (or even in addition to a will)
Several taxation benefits
Creditor protection of marital home
Financial benefits or support if spouse becomes dead or disabled

I really can't be arsed going on with this list. If you do not know that marriage grants literally hundreds of legal rights and powers, both federal and state, you probably shouldn't post in a thread regarding the issue.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: The Poster on July 15, 2007, 02:13:44 PM
the only thing i can think of
I guess this is where it went wrong.

Quote
that too. so what other legal rights is he talking about?

Visitational rights in hospitals
Power of medical decisions
Combined health insurance and sick leave from employers
Rights to inheritance in the case of death without a will (or even in addition to a will)
Several taxation benefits
Creditor protection of marital home
Financial benefits or support if spouse becomes dead or disabled

I really can't be arsed going on with this list. If you do not know that marriage grants literally hundreds of legal rights and powers, both federal and state, you probably shouldn't post in a thread regarding the issue.


we already ruled those out a few pages ago, remember? most of those things can be taken care of with other means (wills, health care proxies, durable power of attorney, joint tenancy in a deed, etc.).
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 15, 2007, 04:12:55 PM
the only thing i can think of
I guess this is where it went wrong.

Quote
that too. so what other legal rights is he talking about?

Visitational rights in hospitals
Power of medical decisions
Combined health insurance and sick leave from employers
Rights to inheritance in the case of death without a will (or even in addition to a will)
Several taxation benefits
Creditor protection of marital home
Financial benefits or support if spouse becomes dead or disabled

I really can't be arsed going on with this list. If you do not know that marriage grants literally hundreds of legal rights and powers, both federal and state, you probably shouldn't post in a thread regarding the issue.


we already ruled those out a few pages ago, remember? most of those things can be taken care of with other means (wills, health care proxies, durable power of attorney, joint tenancy in a deed, etc.).

Uhm, certainly pretty much everything can be taken care of in a contractual society, I don't see what that has to do with the fact that these things are inherent in a marriage.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Stunt Shark on July 15, 2007, 07:19:36 PM
::swims through thread::
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Alamo on July 15, 2007, 07:55:15 PM
the only thing i can think of
I guess this is where it went wrong.

Quote
that too. so what other legal rights is he talking about?

Visitational rights in hospitals
Power of medical decisions
Combined health insurance and sick leave from employers
Rights to inheritance in the case of death without a will (or even in addition to a will)
Several taxation benefits
Creditor protection of marital home
Financial benefits or support if spouse becomes dead or disabled

I really can't be arsed going on with this list. If you do not know that marriage grants literally hundreds of legal rights and powers, both federal and state, you probably shouldn't post in a thread regarding the issue.


we already ruled those out a few pages ago, remember? most of those things can be taken care of with other means (wills, health care proxies, durable power of attorney, joint tenancy in a deed, etc.).

Uhm, certainly pretty much everything can be taken care of in a contractual society, I don't see what that has to do with the fact that these things are inherent in a marriage.

Because marriage isn't about all of the inherent contractual obligations, it's about a union founded upon love.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: flyaway on July 15, 2007, 09:22:55 PM
the only thing i can think of
I guess this is where it went wrong.

Quote
that too. so what other legal rights is he talking about?

Visitational rights in hospitals
Power of medical decisions
Combined health insurance and sick leave from employers
Rights to inheritance in the case of death without a will (or even in addition to a will)
Several taxation benefits
Creditor protection of marital home
Financial benefits or support if spouse becomes dead or disabled

I really can't be arsed going on with this list. If you do not know that marriage grants literally hundreds of legal rights and powers, both federal and state, you probably shouldn't post in a thread regarding the issue.


we already ruled those out a few pages ago, remember? most of those things can be taken care of with other means (wills, health care proxies, durable power of attorney, joint tenancy in a deed, etc.).

Uhm, certainly pretty much everything can be taken care of in a contractual society, I don't see what that has to do with the fact that these things are inherent in a marriage.

Because marriage isn't about all of the inherent contractual obligations, it's about a union founded upon love.

Seriously.  This is pretty much the point I've been trying to make to the people who don't understand why anyone would not want a prenup without being a gold digger.  But I don't think they want to understand.  They just want to write off everyone who sees marriage differently than they do as an idiot or evil.

People approach marriage from different viewpoints and think about it different ways, just like they do about every other life choice.

When I got married, I made a commitment for the rest of my life.  I didn't make a commitment for the rest of my life, but only if it works out.  Preparing for the possibility of divorce changes the entire nature of the commitment.  Maybe that's naive or idealistic, but marriage *is* idealistic.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: n/a on July 16, 2007, 12:49:42 AM
This logic is similar to you declining on health insurance because you make a commitment to be healthy the rest of your life. 

Just as there are aspects of your health that you do not control, so too are there these aspects of marriage--namely your partner.

Anyone who would pass on health insurance and take the risk of being totally F-ed financially would be seen as idiotic; I cannot fathom how someone could pass on a prenup and risk the same kind of monetary shellacking.


I understand the idealistic comment, but I dont think I would ask someone who couldnt take a step back and look at the decision logically without tying in emotion to marry me in the first place, so I guess it is a non-issue pour moi.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 16, 2007, 06:27:01 AM
Preparing for the possibility of divorce changes the entire nature of the commitment.  Maybe that's naive or idealistic, but marriage *is* idealistic.

It's not naive or idealistic, it's dumb. Sorry, but there's no other word. It's like the other guy said, not getting health insurance because you're not planning to get sick.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Alamo on July 16, 2007, 06:45:20 AM
Preparing for the possibility of divorce changes the entire nature of the commitment.  Maybe that's naive or idealistic, but marriage *is* idealistic.

It's not naive or idealistic, it's dumb. Sorry, but there's no other word. It's like the other guy said, not getting health insurance because you're not planning to get sick.

No, YOU'RE dumb.  Seriously, is this the level to which we've descended?  You kids don't have any respect for anyone or anything nowadays.

And if you don't believe that the bond of holy matrimony is intrinsically different from the bond between you and your health insurance provider, then I don't know what to say to you.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: flyaway on July 16, 2007, 07:18:42 AM
Preparing for the possibility of divorce changes the entire nature of the commitment.  Maybe that's naive or idealistic, but marriage *is* idealistic.

It's not naive or idealistic, it's dumb. Sorry, but there's no other word. It's like the other guy said, not getting health insurance because you're not planning to get sick.

If you really think that's a good analogy, 1. either you're the dumb one, or 2. you really don't get the concept of marriage.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 16, 2007, 07:19:41 AM
You kids don't have any respect for anyone or anything nowadays.
Perhaps that is a good thing

Quote
And if you don't believe that the bond of holy matrimony is intrinsically different from the bond between you and your health insurance provider, then I don't know what to say to you.
Pretending like marriage is something that it isn't will not make it become that illusion.  It's dumb to go into something this important with such a naive attitude. Simply said.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: flyaway on July 16, 2007, 07:27:30 AM
Maybe that's not what marriage is to you, but it's exactly what marriage is to me and my husband. 
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 16, 2007, 07:38:16 AM
I'm sad to hear that. If marriage to you rejects the reality of divorce, I find that somewhat worrying.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: GraphiteDirigible on July 16, 2007, 08:03:24 AM
Maybe that's not what marriage is to you, but it's exactly what marriage is to me and my husband. 

Don't listen to these cynical people. I'm with you and more power to you.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 16, 2007, 08:17:46 AM
Certainly not my opinion that marriage is bad either. However, being too obsessed with the romantic notion of marriage to accept reality for what it is - I think is bad.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Alamo on July 16, 2007, 08:38:26 AM
Certainly not my opinion that marriage is bad either. However, being too obsessed with the romantic notion of marriage to accept reality for what it is - I think is bad.

Understand that your reality and my reality are very different things.  You are likely to marry a woman who values the same things that you do, that sees marriage as an instrument of convenience and social status.  Given this attitude, I predict you are more likely to get divorced, possibly several times.  I married my wife based upon love, compatibility, and support.  I can neither predict nor control the future, but I say with confidence that the attitude and reasons with which I entered marriage makes a divorce far less likely for me than someone who views it as just another set of contractual obligations.

The majority of marriages, particularly first marriages, are not peaches-and-cream lifetimes of pure romantic bliss, but they are fulfilling unions.  They are hard work, but they are very rewarding.  You don't hear about lasting marriages like you hear about divorces.  That doesn't mean they aren't more common.

Additional food for thought:  Divorce rates now at lowest level since 1970, reasons disputed...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18600304/
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Alamo on July 16, 2007, 10:50:58 AM
Seriously.  This is pretty much the point I've been trying to make to the people who don't understand why anyone would not want a prenup without being a gold digger.  But I don't think they want to understand.  They just want to write off everyone who sees marriage differently than they do as an idiot or evil.

Not true. Make whatever decision you want to in your life. I've maintained all along in this thread that I won't get married without a prenup, if I get married at all. Several others have made the same distinction without casting aspersions at those who disagree.

I think this poster was pretty much just talking to Keno, who did state that it's dumb not to get a prenup.  I think that deep down, most of us on this board can respect differences of opinion, even those who like to have a bad-ass pretend interweb personality.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on July 16, 2007, 11:01:59 AM
meh.

I'm not telling anyone to not get married or that marriage is bad.

Just that it doesn't mean to me what it means to (some) others.

And that, based on my different perception of marriage, a prenup doesn't conflict with the ideas behind marriage (which I, and The Poster, argued are independent from marriage itself).



agreed on the bolded
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: GraphiteDirigible on July 16, 2007, 11:51:31 AM
I think, the way this thread has headed, that it's a great example of the source of this phenomenon (http://www.nd.edu/~ndmag/legl2f99.htm).
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: GraphiteDirigible on July 16, 2007, 12:05:33 PM
I think, the way this thread has headed, that it's a great example of the source of this phenomenon (http://www.nd.edu/~ndmag/legl2f99.htm).

woohoo!

::gets married::

::gets divorced because job kills me::


--------------------

Anyway, it's fairly well known that level of education correlates with depression and suicide.  I wonder if statements like, "Not surprisingly, a preliminary study indicates that lawyers commit suicide and think about committing suicide more often than nonlawyers," were made after controlling for education level.

From the article: "Lawyers topped the list, suffering from MDD at a rate 3.6 times higher than nonlawyers who shared their key socio-demographic traits." (Italics added)

The job kills. But so does the cynical attitude and slavish devotion to money that becomes more pronounced as time goes by. People who are already considering prenups and divorce before even meeting a potential fiance are definitely demonstrating some of those characteristics.

BTW: I don't mean to be a fun killer.



Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: GraphiteDirigible on July 16, 2007, 12:12:57 PM
From the article: "Lawyers topped the list, suffering from MDD at a rate 3.6 times higher than nonlawyers who shared their key socio-demographic traits." (Italics added)

The job kills. But so does the cynical attitude and slavish devotion to money that becomes more pronounced as time goes by. People who are already considering prenups and divorce before even meeting a potential fiance are definitely demonstrating some of those characteristics.

BTW: I don't mean to be a fun killer.

Right, but it's not clear in the article that the study mentioned in the second paragraph is the source of the statements in the third paragraph (where I got the quotation).

I poked around a bit and found that physicians commit suicide at more than twice the rate of similar (age, etc) people who only have a university level education.

Damn the long hours!

edit to add: However, the relationship was first noticed over a hundred years ago when, presumably, long hours weren't so forced.  Chicken or egg?  Who knows.

From the article and more pertinent:

"The divorce rate among lawyers appears to be higher than the divorce rate among other professionals. Felicia Baker LeClere of Notre Dame=s Center for the Study of Contemporary Society compared the incidence of divorce among lawyers to the incidence of divorce among doctors, using data from the 1990 census. LeClere found that the percentage of lawyers who are divorced is higher than the percentage of doctors who are divorced and that the difference is particularly pronounced among women."


Here's another one (http://www.nd.edu/~ndmag/legalf99.htm) that relates to factors other than work hours.

ETA: Why do lawyers work long hours? Money. Chicken or egg?
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 16, 2007, 12:18:15 PM
Understand that your reality and my reality are very different things.
I doubt that.

Quote
You are likely to marry a woman who values the same things that you do, that sees marriage as an instrument of convenience and social status.
Being realistic about the future and how things can change doesn't mean you're marrying for convenience and social status. It means you think with your brain, instead of mindlessly going by an overly romantic tradition.

Quote
Given this attitude, I predict you are more likely to get divorced, possibly several times.
Your prediction is proven incorrect by countless statistics and research. Couples with prenups are no more likely to divorce. Atheists are no more likely to divorce. List goes on.

Quote
I married my wife based upon love, compatibility, and support.
So did 99.5% of everyone else. Including 99.5% of the approximately 50% getting divorced.

Quote
I can neither predict nor control the future, but I say with confidence that the attitude and reasons with which I entered marriage makes a divorce far less likely for me than someone who views it as just another set of contractual obligations.
Yeah, and that's not going to change when your wife starts banging your boss, I'm sure. But no, she wouldn't do that. Not her!

Quote
The majority of marriages, particularly first marriages, are not peaches-and-cream lifetimes of pure romantic bliss, but they are fulfilling unions.
I am absolutely certain they can be. My point is that paradise can turn to hell in a heartbeat, and no matter how wonderful you think your wife is today, you might not think that 5 years down the road. Or you might, but she doesn't think that of you.

Quote
They are hard work, but they are very rewarding.  You don't hear about lasting marriages like you hear about divorces.  That doesn't mean they aren't more common.
Well, actually, divorces are more common than the married-for-life scenarios. That doesn't mean I don't believe in it. My parents have been together since they were 13, and they're still happy together way past 50. I have no doubt that it is both rewarding and wonderful. That doesn't mean you should disregard any possibility that things may not go as planned. If both you and your wife are career professionals you probably have no reason to worry, you'll both land on your feet after a divorce. If one of you end up as a stay-at-home parent, forsaking professional ambitions; you might not.

Quote
Additional food for thought:  Divorce rates now at lowest level since 1970, reasons disputed...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18600304/
Because the statistics reflect divorce per capita, not divorce per marriage. Less marriage = less divorce, yet the chance of a marriage ending in divorce is increased.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 16, 2007, 12:20:59 PM
People who are already considering prenups and divorce before even meeting a potential fiance are definitely demonstrating some of those characteristics.

Uh, hardly. Good luck finding anything remotely scientific to support this. I can guarantee you that people who feel more comfortable preparing for future problems are way more relaxed and optimistic about their future than people who do not.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Elephant Lee on July 16, 2007, 12:24:24 PM
Your prediction is proven incorrect by countless statistics and research. Couples with prenups are no more likely to divorce.
Early on in this thread I looked and didn't find any stats at all on prenups. I haven't seen any posted so far. Can you substantiate this?

ETA: Other substantial things that have been completely ignored in this thread:
-Does a prenup make a divorce less contentious or damaging (financially, emotionally, etc.)?
-Does a prenup make the outcome more fair/equitable?
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: GraphiteDirigible on July 16, 2007, 12:28:07 PM
People who are already considering prenups and divorce before even meeting a potential fiance are definitely demonstrating some of those characteristics.

Uh, hardly. Good luck finding anything remotely scientific to support this. I can guarantee you that people who feel more comfortable preparing for future problems are way more relaxed and optimistic about their future than people who do not.

A) Do I need to find evidence for something that is obvious. Considering divorce and prenups before even meeting someone shows a devotion to money and a cynicism about marriage. What needs to be proven? It is what it is. If you want to know about how long hours, devotion to money, and cynicism intertwine to cause depression, divorce, and suicide read the articles.

B) Find scientific evidence for your 'guarantee'.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 16, 2007, 12:40:03 PM
Quote
Mahar found that although respondents to her survey correctly identified the national divorce rate at approximately 50 percent, they believed their own chance of divorcing was just 11.7 percent. The more optimistic a respondent was about the enduring success of his or her marriage, the less likely he or she was to consider requesting a prenuptial agreement. "Just like everyone thinks they're a better-than-average driver, everyone thinks that there's no way their marriage will end in divorce," says Mahar.
http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2003/10.16/01-prenup.html

Your prediction is proven incorrect by countless statistics and research. Couples with prenups are no more likely to divorce.
No more or less than your average Google search. I've read up on what I could find, and pretty much all info (including Divorce Magazine etc) seems to indicate what I said, there's no noticeable difference in the chance of a divorce. In terms of solid research I haven't found much, probably since having a prenup or not isn't public information in weddings.
Early on in this thread I looked and didn't find any stats at all on prenups. I haven't seen any posted so far. Can you substantiate this?

Quote
ETA: Other substantial things that have been completely ignored in this thread:
-Does a prenup make a divorce less contentious or damaging (financially, emotionally, etc.)?
-Does a prenup make the outcome more fair/equitable?
Well, the answer to those two questions would obviously be yes, since that's exactly what a prenup does. I'm not even going to bother to google this for anecdotal evidence :)
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 16, 2007, 12:43:16 PM
Quote
Based on the findings of a recent Harvard Law School study, it may be more apropos for a bride and groom to declare "I don't trust you!" at the altar than share "I do's." The study concluded that contrary to popular belief, a prenuptial agreement increases the chances of marriage success. It attempts to convert the marriage union into a sterile cooperative.
Although, the link to the Harvard Gazette ends in a 404...

Edit; http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2007/1/emw498173.htm
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Alamo on July 16, 2007, 12:49:53 PM
Keno,

I'm not going to extend this pissing match any further except to state that:

1) I'm not sure how you draw your conclusion that divorces are more common than married-for-life scenarios.  Unfortunately, there don't seem to be any good statistics on what percentage of marriages end in divorce.  Whatever the actual percentage is, it's skewed upwards by people who marry more than once.  I have no idea how you come to the conclusion that divorce is more common than marriage.  I beg to be enlightened.

1a) I think it's great that fewer people are getting married, since our culture seems to be moving toward a more cost-benefit oriented conception of marriage, which, as I've stated haughtily before, I do not consider to be marriage at all.   

2) You'll understand better if you ever mature to the point where you're looking for something more than "a sterile cooperative."  Or maybe you'll just die fat, bald, ugly and alone.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Elephant Lee on July 16, 2007, 12:55:17 PM
Quote
Based on the findings of a recent Harvard Law School study, it may be more apropos for a bride and groom to declare "I don't trust you!" at the altar than share "I do's." The study concluded that contrary to popular belief, a prenuptial agreement increases the chances of marriage success. It attempts to convert the marriage union into a sterile cooperative.
Although, the link to the Harvard Gazette ends in a 404...

Edit; http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2007/1/emw498173.htm
I can only find other summaries of Mahar's work, but it doesn't look to me like she's actually researched whether prenups increase the chance of divorce in practice. She thinks they may reduce the likelihood of divorce because they can make divorce more difficult, but it's not clear whether that's backed up by stats.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 16, 2007, 01:00:40 PM
1) I'm not sure how you draw your conclusion that divorces are more common than married-for-life scenarios.  Unfortunately, there don't seem to be any good statistics on what percentage of marriages end in divorce.  Whatever the actual percentage is, it's skewed upwards by people who marry more than once.  I have no idea how you come to the conclusion that divorce is more common than marriage.  I beg to be enlightened.
49% of American marriages  end in divorce. Some people marry more than once. It's a mathematical certainty that divorces outnumber marriage-for-life, unless every single marriage that doesn't end in a divorce is a first marriage. We know for a fact that many of these are 2nd, 3rd or "worse" marriages, thus it's proven.

Quote
1a) I think it's great that fewer people are getting married, since our culture seems to be moving toward a more cost-benefit oriented conception of marriage, which, as I've stated haughtily before, I do not consider to be marriage at all.
I completely agree.

Quote
2) You'll understand better when you're older, and looking for something more than "a sterile cooperative."  Or maybe you'll just die fat, bald, ugly and alone.
I am older, and the sterile cooperative wasn't my words. I don't even like that comparison. My "passion" for prenups are simply about being prepared. Doesn't even have to be for your own sake, what if you have 5-6 year old children when you go through a heated divorce? If there's one thing we know for sure, it is that children are the ones most negatively affected by a divorce. If not for yourself, make it easier for them.

Quote
I can only find other summaries of Mahar's work, but it doesn't look to me like she's actually researched whether prenups increase the chance of divorce in practice. She thinks they may reduce the likelihood of divorce because they can make divorce more difficult, but it's not clear whether that's backed up by stats.
I didn't put much effort into it, as I've said, I googled a bit throughout this thread because I find it to be an interesting topic, and I'm largely going by anecdotal evidence, since I can't find anything empiric. I also only found a news summary of Mehar's research and not her actual papers either.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Alamo on July 16, 2007, 01:04:05 PM
1) I'm not sure how you draw your conclusion that divorces are more common than married-for-life scenarios.  Unfortunately, there don't seem to be any good statistics on what percentage of marriages end in divorce.  Whatever the actual percentage is, it's skewed upwards by people who marry more than once.  I have no idea how you come to the conclusion that divorce is more common than marriage.  I beg to be enlightened.
49% of American marriages end in divorce. Some people marry more than once. It's a mathematical certainty that divorces outnumber marriage-for-life, unless every single marriage that doesn't end in a divorce is a first marriage. We know for a fact that many of these are 2nd, 3rd or "worse" marriages, thus it's proven.

From where do you get 49%?
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Elephant Lee on July 16, 2007, 01:04:23 PM
Apparently Heather Mahar was on The Amazing Race.  :D
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 16, 2007, 01:08:06 PM
From where do you get 49%?

Some ranking of countries sorted by chance of divorce, USA placed 5th with 49%. That being said the 49% or "close to 50%" is cited so many places I doubt it will be difficult to have it confirmed.

What I really found interesting is that only approximately 10% of the population believe a divorce will happen to them. Then again, I was quite surprised with your confidence in your marriage as well.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Alamo on July 16, 2007, 01:19:01 PM
From where do you get 49%?

Some ranking of countries sorted by chance of divorce, USA placed 5th with 49%. That being said the 49% or "close to 50%" is cited so many places I doubt it will be difficult to have it confirmed.

What I really found interesting is that only approximately 10% of the population believe a divorce will happen to them. Then again, I was quite surprised with your confidence in your marriage as well.

Citing a number quoted over and over again on internet message boards doesn't make it scientific.

And I don't think it's surprising that people don't think divorce would happen to them.  Why would you want to enter into a marriage that you believed might end in divorce?  Many of these people are deluding themselves, or are simply not thinking it through. 

It is possible to think through (with your brain) the decision of getting married and consciously decide that a prenup undermines the foundation of marriage not to be worth it (particularly since prenups can often be challenged in court anyway). 

I am very confident in my marriage.  I would never want to be part of a marriage in which I was anything less than confident, and I'm not sure why anyone else would, either.


http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/divorce.htm

Interesting.  To cherry-pick a stat that supports my underlying principles, take a look at the number of marriages in Nevada (in the last table): 4th highest of any state in the country.

Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Elephant Lee on July 16, 2007, 01:25:32 PM
Quote
ETA: Other substantial things that have been completely ignored in this thread:
-Does a prenup make a divorce less contentious or damaging (financially, emotionally, etc.)?
-Does a prenup make the outcome more fair/equitable?
Well, the answer to those two questions would obviously be yes, since that's exactly what a prenup does. I'm not even going to bother to google this for anecdotal evidence :)
That's a huge assumption. That's the INTENTION of a prenup. The result is not clear. For instance:.
http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20041111-000003.html

Anyway, I found Mahar's paper. http://www.law.harvard.edu/programs/olin_center/papers/pdf/436.pdf

Not sure if she has another one, but the only statistical analysis involves surveying people about what they believe their chances of divorce are. Nothing to do with whether prenup increases the chances that I could find.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 16, 2007, 01:32:19 PM
Citing a number quoted over and over again on internet message boards doesn't make it scientific.
True, but since it was confirmed (at least very closely) by statistical evidence, I guess it's still good enough.

Quote
And I don't think it's surprising that people don't think divorce would happen to them.  Why would you want to enter into a marriage that you believed might end in divorce?
Because I believe people generally and intelligent and reflective and consider also the unwanted outcomes when making a decision. I know I'm putting a lot of faith in "people", but that's how I am. The same way I know that driving might lead to a car crash. I chose to do it because the reward of driving outweighs the risk of being hit by a truck. I like to think people getting married are realistic enough to make the same risk versus reward consideration. If you truly love someone, 50% chance of success would be worth taking. Although, with precautions.

Quote
Many of these people are deluding themselves, or are simply not thinking it through.
I'd argue all of them, but good enough. I don't think there's a single married couple in the world who shouldn't even consider the possibility of a divorce.

Quote
It is possible to think through (with your brain) the decision of getting married and consciously decide that a prenup undermines the foundation of marriage not to be worth it (particularly since prenups can often be challenged in court anyway).
Yes it is, but I firmly believe it to be an unwise decision. If the prenup has to go to court you can only image how messy the divorce would be without one.

Quote
I am very confident in my marriage.  I would never want to be part of a marriage in which I was anything less than confident, and I'm not sure why anyone else would, either.
I agree, confident is good. Blind confidence isn't. You should believe that the marriage would last. You should, however, not totally disregard the chances that it might not.

Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Elephant Lee on July 16, 2007, 01:56:46 PM
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p230/rhubarbking/prenup.jpg)
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: GraphiteDirigible on July 16, 2007, 02:00:39 PM
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p230/rhubarbking/prenup.jpg)

 :D :D
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Elephant Lee on July 16, 2007, 02:04:24 PM
I saw that as well.  :D
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: n/a on July 16, 2007, 02:05:07 PM
"And these days, with divorce rates skyrocketing and so many brutally mercenary women out there who think that they're entitled to your hard-earned money..."

I just found a new favorite website.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: fuwaf on July 16, 2007, 03:00:00 PM
"And these days, with divorce rates skyrocketing and so many brutally mercenary women out there who think that they're entitled to your hard-earned money..."

I just found a new favorite website.

Haha, this is really funny, because I was just thinking how I could be a vindictive female dog and screw my ex out of his money in the event of divorce... so maybe a prenup would be less for me and more for him.  I can be pretty nasty when provoked.  ;)
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Too Embarrassed on July 16, 2007, 03:08:49 PM
I think anyone who doesn't want to sign one is living in this fantasy, fairy tale, naive, gullible state of mind.

Common! PEOPLE!!! You came to this world alone, what makes you think this is a "ride or die" world!? 

Both party's attorney will go through the pre-nup and give legal advise so it's not like someone is trying to pull a fast one.  If no deal, then just don't get married.

CASE CLOSED!
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Elephant Lee on July 16, 2007, 03:20:01 PM
Thanks for not adding anything to the conversation.

Case still open.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: n/a on July 16, 2007, 03:21:12 PM
But she said it was closed...
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Too Embarrassed on July 16, 2007, 03:54:04 PM
The damn case is closed and I'll lock this damn thread if you don't agree with me!  ;D
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: fuwaf on July 16, 2007, 04:41:36 PM
Thanks for not adding anything to the conversation.

Case still open.

 :D :D :D
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on July 16, 2007, 06:00:17 PM
"And these days, with divorce rates skyrocketing and so many brutally mercenary women out there who think that they're entitled to your hard-earned money..."

I just found a new favorite website.

I can't even find fault with this...there's a reason the term golddigger is out there.  And some men are like that too, lookin for a suga mamma....let me find out some dude wants half of my money--puhlease.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: n/a on July 16, 2007, 06:02:30 PM
"And these days, with divorce rates skyrocketing and so many brutally mercenary women out there who think that they're entitled to your hard-earned money..."

I just found a new favorite website.

I can't even find fault with this...there's a reason the term golddigger is out there.  And some men are like that too, lookin for a suga mamma....let me find out some dude wants half of my money--puhlease.

CANIHAVURSTUF?
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 17, 2007, 04:50:18 AM
Not having a prenup is a sign of being mentally TTT. End of discussion.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 17, 2007, 08:01:18 AM
<redacted--unnecessary cheap shot>

Cheap shot? You mean totally swing and miss? After all, I got into the school currently ranked 4th. How about you?

TTT?  Like the highest level of school you deserved to get into with your weak-ass stats?

 ???  He got into NYU, the 6th best school in the country, his stats couldn't have been too bad.

Not-so-subtle Chicago trolling, you bastard :p
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 17, 2007, 08:19:36 AM
wasnt your lsat sub 160?

I am jealous

Well, my retake was a 178 actually. But I got admitted to NYU with a sub-160, yes. The retake was just for self-esteem reasons.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 17, 2007, 01:14:36 PM
Not having a penis is a sign of being mentally TTT. End of discussion.

sexist bastard.

Admit it, your penis rules.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Amy Winehouse on July 17, 2007, 01:17:04 PM
Not having a prenup is a sign of being mentally TTT. End of discussion.

I think you are being unnecessarily hard on people who do not share your worldview, Keno.

And my penis does rule, thank you!
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 17, 2007, 01:18:43 PM
Not having a prenup is a sign of being mentally TTT. End of discussion.

I think you are being unnecessarily hard on people who do not share your worldview, Keno.
Oh, I am. I like to stomp on people's feet :p

Quote
And my penis does rule, thank you!
wtf?
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Alamo on July 17, 2007, 01:20:37 PM
Not having a prenup is a sign of being mentally TTT. End of discussion.

I think you are being unnecessarily hard on people who do not share your worldview, Keno.

And my penis does rule, thank you!

Yeah, he even said in another thread that he's more confrontational on this board than he is in real life.  I guess it's a better means of channeling insecurity/aggression/whatever his issues are than taking it out on real people.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Amy Winehouse on July 17, 2007, 01:22:59 PM
Not having a prenup is a sign of being mentally TTT. End of discussion.

I think you are being unnecessarily hard on people who do not share your worldview, Keno.
Oh, I am. I like to stomp on people's feet :p

Quote
And my penis does rule, thank you!
wtf?

Eh, the clitoris is just a penis without the Testes Determining Factor anyway.**


**please enjoy this mental image next time you are having sex, courtesy of Miss Amy Winehouse.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 17, 2007, 01:25:52 PM
Yeah, he even said in another thread that he's more confrontational on this board than he is in real life.  I guess it's a better means of channeling insecurity/aggression/whatever his issues are than taking it out on real people.

By what stardards do you recon being more blunt on an internet forum equals channeling insecurity or aggression? It's just that there's no need to wrap things in when talking to people who means nothing to you. In real life, you'd be careful not to offend people because you're going to deal with them later. Here, that's not an issue, so you can pretty much say straight out what you think.

Eh, the clitoris is just a penis without the Testes Determining Factor anyway.**


**please enjoy this mental image next time you are having sex, courtesy of Miss Amy Winehouse.
Takes more than that to put me off my dear, a lot more. ;)
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: GraphiteDirigible on July 17, 2007, 01:27:26 PM
Not having a prenup is a sign of being mentally TTT. End of discussion.

I think you are being unnecessarily hard on people who do not share your worldview, Keno.
Oh, I am. I like to stomp on people's feet :p

Quote
And my penis does rule, thank you!
wtf?

Eh, the clitoris is just a penis without the Testes Determining Factor anyway.**


**please enjoy this mental image next time you are having sex, courtesy of Miss Amy Winehouse.

Wow. That's going to send me on a homophobic rage spree.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Astro on July 17, 2007, 01:27:34 PM
Not having a prenup is a sign of being mentally TTT. End of discussion.

I think you are being unnecessarily hard on people who do not share your worldview, Keno.
Oh, I am. I like to stomp on people's feet :p

Quote
And my penis does rule, thank you!
wtf?

Eh, the clitoris is just a penis without the Testes Determining Factor anyway.**


**please enjoy this mental image next time you are having sex, courtesy of Miss Amy Winehouse.


I think that may actually just turn me on even more.

::"descends" into depravity::
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Alamo on July 17, 2007, 01:54:14 PM
Yeah, he even said in another thread that he's more confrontational on this board than he is in real life.  I guess it's a better means of channeling insecurity/aggression/whatever his issues are than taking it out on real people.

By what stardards do you recon being more blunt on an internet forum equals channeling insecurity or aggression? It's just that there's no need to wrap things in when talking to people who means nothing to you. In real life, you'd be careful not to offend people because you're going to deal with them later. Here, that's not an issue, so you can pretty much say straight out what you think.

I understand that sometimes internet message boards are useful tools for breaking information to people that's tough to break in person.  But your view seems to be a little different--you think that because you never have to deal with a person in person, you have zero incentive to behave with the slightest bit of common decency.  This fundamental lack of decency (you admit that you use decency/tact/whatever-you-call-it in dealing with people in person only because you have to face up to them) is usually a sign of insecurity, aggression, or some other sort of psychological issue.  Not only that, but because people act emotionally as well as rationally, your boorishness usually weakens whatever you are trying to communicate.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: John Blackthorne on July 17, 2007, 01:56:24 PM
Yeah, he even said in another thread that he's more confrontational on this board than he is in real life.  I guess it's a better means of channeling insecurity/aggression/whatever his issues are than taking it out on real people.

By what stardards do you recon being more blunt on an internet forum equals channeling insecurity or aggression? It's just that there's no need to wrap things in when talking to people who means nothing to you. In real life, you'd be careful not to offend people because you're going to deal with them later. Here, that's not an issue, so you can pretty much say straight out what you think.

I understand that sometimes internet message boards are useful tools for breaking information to people that's tough to break in person.  But your view seems to be a little different--you think that because you never have to deal with a person in person, you have zero incentive to behave with the slightest bit of common decency.  This fundamental lack of decency (you admit that you use decency/tact/whatever-you-call-it in dealing with people in person only because you have to face up to them) is usually a sign of insecurity, aggression, or some other sort of psychological issue.  Not only that, but because people act emotionally as well as rationally, i have a pic of my kid as my avatar so the ladies are already on my side before they read what i post.


 ::)
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: n/a on July 17, 2007, 02:03:41 PM
Says the guy with a big hat in his 'tar.

A big hat like that got me laid once, no lie.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Alamo on July 17, 2007, 02:05:28 PM
Yeah, he even said in another thread that he's more confrontational on this board than he is in real life.  I guess it's a better means of channeling insecurity/aggression/whatever his issues are than taking it out on real people.

By what stardards do you recon being more blunt on an internet forum equals channeling insecurity or aggression? It's just that there's no need to wrap things in when talking to people who means nothing to you. In real life, you'd be careful not to offend people because you're going to deal with them later. Here, that's not an issue, so you can pretty much say straight out what you think.

I understand that sometimes internet message boards are useful tools for breaking information to people that's tough to break in person.  But your view seems to be a little different--you think that because you never have to deal with a person in person, you have zero incentive to behave with the slightest bit of common decency.  This fundamental lack of decency (you admit that you use decency/tact/whatever-you-call-it in dealing with people in person only because you have to face up to them) is usually a sign of insecurity, aggression, or some other sort of psychological issue.  Not only that, but because people act emotionally as well as rationally, i have a pic of my kid as my avatar so the ladies are already on my side before they read what i post.


 ::)


OK, credited.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Jolie Was Here on July 17, 2007, 02:08:35 PM
Oh. my.  I wanted to avoid substantive work SO MUCH that I just read all 23 pages of this mess. 

And all I have to say in response is that I think me and Piggy should get married. ;D
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 17, 2007, 03:32:51 PM
I understand that sometimes internet message boards are useful tools for breaking information to people that's tough to break in person.  But your view seems to be a little different--you think that because you never have to deal with a person in person, you have zero incentive to behave with the slightest bit of common decency.
Actually, I'd challenge you to find anywhere I don't treat people with decency. I argue bluntly in discussions, but I've never resolved to putting people down, insults (more serious that being followed by a smiley at least) or any other form of trying to humiliate people. I've never talked down to anyone as a person. If I think you say something stupid, I'll state that. Just like plenty of people tell me my *&^% is stupid, but I don't go ragging on people, like quite a lot of the trolls around here do.

Quote
This fundamental lack of decency (you admit that you use decency/tact/whatever-you-call-it in dealing with people in person only because you have to face up to them) is usually a sign of insecurity, aggression, or some other sort of psychological issue.
Actually, it really isn't. Now, as I've said, I've never been aggressive, hostile or insulting to people here (albeit some people find it insulting that I strongly disagree with their point of views). But even that trolling, the worst form of trolling, XOXO-style really doesn't reflect anything on a person's psyche. It would be a mistake to draw any conclusions based on anything written on a forum like this.

Quote
Not only that, but because people act emotionally as well as rationally, your boorishness usually weakens whatever you are trying to communicate.
But that's ok, I'm not a politician, I have no need to win people over to my cause. If I'm the only one that feels the way I do and the rest of the world disagrees; that's perfectly fine by me.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: TwinkyBean on July 17, 2007, 08:47:29 PM
Anyone want to be a member of the Pen 15 club?..
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: TwinkyBean on July 17, 2007, 08:55:45 PM
Will you change your "ABOUT A 3.195223423563764734243" to a f-ing 3.2 plz.

I dont think you can have ABOUT a 3.195.

LOL.. I swear.. its got like 6 digits behind it! I think the next number is a 3.. I have no idea how that happens..
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: GraphiteDirigible on July 17, 2007, 09:35:23 PM
Speaking of gunners, is anybody who's on myspace friends with 'The Gunner'?

ETA: Here's the page: http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=199697043
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Jolie Was Here on July 18, 2007, 09:31:06 AM
And all I have to say in response is that I think me and Piggy should get married. ;D

 :o

Is your dog cat friendly??

Two dogs.  And yes, they live with a cat.  ;)
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 18, 2007, 09:34:02 AM
And all I have to say in response is that I think me and Piggy should get married. ;D

 :o

Is your dog cat friendly??

Two dogs.  And yes, they live with a cat.  ;)

Do they nibble on it?
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: Jolie Was Here on July 18, 2007, 09:43:42 AM
And all I have to say in response is that I think me and Piggy should get married. ;D

 :o

Is your dog cat friendly??

Two dogs.  And yes, they live with a cat.  ;)

Do they nibble on it?

 :P I was wondering which of you would jump on that first. 

No, the cat has claws. :D
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: ě on July 18, 2007, 09:47:50 AM
Naughty female private part.
Title: Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
Post by: GraphiteDirigible on July 18, 2007, 09:48:40 AM
Naughty female private part.
(http://www.jimhateswork.com/mullet.JPG)