Law School Discussion

Specific Groups => Minority and Non-Traditional Law Students => Topic started by: Americas_top_trial_lawyer on June 16, 2007, 11:15:18 AM

Title: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: Americas_top_trial_lawyer on June 16, 2007, 11:15:18 AM
http://whiteprivilege.com/definition/

Also, it should be noted that affirmative action is a sorry excuse for reperations if this the compensation people of color receive for slavery, lynchings, jim crow and all the other crap they had to deal with.  But until they get organized...


ATTA
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: ColdBlue on June 16, 2007, 11:28:45 AM
I want reparations for what the Mongols, Huns, Turks and Moors did to my European (white) people.
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: Ilovecheese on June 16, 2007, 11:47:24 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b714Wi4CDsQ

xoxo?
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: philibusters on June 17, 2007, 12:59:20 PM
http://whiteprivilege.com/definition/

Also, it should be noted that affirmative action is a sorry excuse for reperations if this the compensation people of color receive for slavery, lynchings, jim crow and all the other crap they had to deal with.  But until they get organized...


ATTA

You support AA because somebody made a blog 5 years ago about white privilege?   There a lot of good reasons to support AA, but that makes no sense.
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: H4CS on August 29, 2007, 12:38:50 AM
Just as whites would likely benefit from living in the shoes of a black person, people like you desperately need to live in the shoes of a white person to see it's not all peaches and cream either.

I'm white and my life is all peaches and cream.  In fact, my shoes are full of them and anyone who puts on my shoes will see exactly how many peaches and how much cream can fit into those shoes.  Just the other day I was saying "oh lordy, it sure is rough being white," but not today; today I have peaches and cream in my shoes.  Fact.
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: Letsgo on August 29, 2007, 12:57:59 AM
http://whiteprivilege.com/definition/

Also, it should be noted that affirmative action is a sorry excuse for reperations if this the compensation people of color receive for slavery, lynchings, jim crow and all the other crap they had to deal with.  But until they get organized...

ATTA


I'm confused, though.  How many black people do you know who actually experienced slavery, lyinchings, and Jim Crow? 

The very concept of white privilege is an illusion, and an insult to the vast majority of non-privileged whites.  Just as whites would likely benefit from living in the shoes of a black person, people like you desperately need to live in the shoes of a white person to see it's not all peaches and cream either.

A lot.  I know many black people who were alive before 1964 that are still alive today.  Do you think that the second the Civil Rights Bill of 1964 was signed everything changed?  I mean look around man.  You have to be ignorant to think the two races are treated the same.  If Katrina happened in a rich white neighborhood, do you think the government response would have been as slow as it was?  Open up Time Magazine and you'll see the infant mortality rate for black babies in Alabama is 3 times as high as it is for white babies.  Read McLesky v. Kemp and you see the death penalty is much more likely to be applied to a black murderer than a white murderer.  New Jersey just had huge racial profiling issues.  You probably feel comfortable everywhere you go, because everyone is white.  Imagine being the only black person in a class full of white people.  Can you even imagine how uncomfortable that would feel?  These examples are only the tip of the iceberg.

You feel the way you do because you're white.  How can you conclude that there is not white privilege if you haven't experienced the other side.  How can you possibly know what it is like to be black in this country?  I'm not asking you to agree with me, but just to realize that there is another side that you have not experienced.  How can you understand what it is like not knowing your ancestry and that your relatives were forcefully taken from their homeland and given European names.  How disgusting.   
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: Letsgo on August 29, 2007, 04:17:49 PM

A lot. 

Where do you meet them?  They would have to be over 140 to have experienced slavery, and I doubt many have experienced lynchings.  Even those that that can really remember Jim Crow are a relatively small minority, and I don't really see how being segregated with other blacks compares to the first two, or merits reparations.


Do you think that the second the Civil Rights Bill of 1964 was signed everything changed?  I mean look around man.  You have to be ignorant to think the two races are treated the same.  If Katrina happened in a rich white neighborhood, do you think the government response would have been as slow as it was? 

Um, Katrina did happen in a "rich white neighborhood."  All of New Orleans (and the entire Gulf Coast) was affected, including millions of prosperous whites.  Blacks just happened to be around for it more, partly due to an incompetent local government.  


Open up Time Magazine and you'll see the infant mortality rate for black babies in Alabama is 3 times as high as it is for white babies. 

Is this because blacks are treated differently, though, or maybe for other cultural reasons, like the ones that produce infant mortality in Africa as well?


Read McLesky v. Kemp and you see the death penalty is much more likely to be applied to a black murderer than a white murderer.  New Jersey just had huge racial profiling issues.  You probably feel comfortable everywhere you go, because everyone is white.  Imagine being the only black person in a class full of white people.  Can you even imagine how uncomfortable that would feel? 

Yes, because I've been in all-black contexts.  You really think whites feel comfortable in all-black neighborhoods?


You feel the way you do because you're white.


Maybe (if you consider everyone who's non-black white).  And maybe blacks feel the way they do because they're black. Who's to say who has a more accurate vision?  Aren't both claims equally presumptuous?


How can you conclude that there is not white privilege if you haven't experienced the other side. 


See above.  How can anyone claim there IS white privilege if they haven't experienced the other side?



How can you possibly know what it is like to be black in this country? 

I don't, but again, I don't think blacks should make assumptions about what it's like to be "white" until they've also tried it.  From what I've seen, most white people bust their ass for everything they have, and earn everything they have.  (This coming from a first-generation immigrant-family urm.)


I'm not asking you to agree with me, but just to realize that there is another side that you have not experienced. 

That's all I'm saying -- this is true of everyone, and we should stop making goofy assumptions about sides we haven't experienced.


How can you understand what it is like not knowing your ancestry


Most people don't know their ancestry.  I only know about 100 years back.


and that your relatives were forcefully taken from their homeland and given European names.  How disgusting.   


Slavery was in fact disgusting.  What's even more disgusting is that it was practiced in Africa for thousands of years, and continues to to be practiced there today.  It's also disgusting that most slaves were in fact enslaved by other Africans.  (I'm not sure, however, how being given an european name is such a burden.)  However, I don't see many blacks clamoring to go back to Africa today.  

The truth is that no one living today actually experienced slavery, which makes reparations an inherently flawed concept.  I would, however, support free passage back to Africa for anyone who desires it -- to the extent any descendant has a desire to return to their ancestral homeland, that would appear an appropriate remedy.

K.
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: 1654134681665465 on August 30, 2007, 02:02:43 PM
Quote
Can you even imagine how uncomfortable that would feel? 

I've been in places where I was the only white person and I didn't feel uncomfortable at all.  When I've been places where almost everyone is white and there are a few blacks, Latinos, or Asians present I didn't hear any white people whisper racial comments or giving them dirty looks or treating them differently than I was being treated.  I'm not saying that it doesn't happen at all, but when it does happen it goes both ways. 

Quote
As for lynchings, well I haven't talked to anyone lately who's been lynched.  But that's not saying a whole lot is it now? 

Neither have I, but I have talked with people who were shot up in convenience store robbery.  Again. 

Oh, and what was the ratio of black people to white people who were shot by the DC sniper? 

When New Orleans goes under water (because the city and state government had been using Federal money for the repair and maintenance of the levies for other things for over 30 years) everyone says that white people are trying to kill black people. 

When the World Trade Center towers get hit on 9/11, how white people died compared to other ethnicities? How do we know that this wasn't a conspiracy by blacks to kill whites? 

My point, is that there is racism in America but not to the extent that people make it up to be.  And what racism there is goes both ways.  A lot of the problems that black America has is related to poverty (which are the same problems that other poor ethnic groups have as well). Slavery and racism undoubtedly led to poverty among blacks several decades ago, however not so much anymore.  Evidence?

Immigrants from Asia have gone from lower class and speaking no English, to upper class, highly educated, and completely  fluent in English within a generation or two (this includes internment camps and such).  So don't say that poverty is STILL the result of racism. 
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: The F-cktard Express on August 30, 2007, 02:49:43 PM


b]My point, is that there is racism in America but not to the extent that people make it up to be.[/b]  And what racism there is goes both ways.  A lot of the problems that black America has is related to poverty (which are the same problems that other poor ethnic groups have as well). Slavery and racism undoubtedly led to poverty among blacks several decades ago, however not so much anymore.  Evidence?

And you know this how?

Are you a white man?

Immigrants from Asia have gone from lower class and speaking no English, to upper class, highly educated, and completely  fluent in English within a generation or two (this includes internment camps and such).  So don't say that poverty is STILL the result of racism. 

A entirely different ball of wax, dear.

Looking a racism in such a holistic way is surely the mark of a tool and a douchesack. What applies for one group doesn't apply for another. Even what applies within one group doesn't apply universally to everyone in it.

The elephant in the room that no one is addressing is that you're all guessing as to what affirmative action entails. You're all thinking in simplistic terms: black = 10 point boost on LSAT, gets into top 10 school.

I doubt it's that simple, and that admissions counselors treat is so. A black person, irrespective of her economic situation, may get a bump in admissions because of her simply being black - because there are special circumstances that a black person faces (directly or indirectly) simply because their skin is black. But I'm sure that bump is no more significant than the one a poor ass white boy might get. Surely the poor ass black kid probably gets the biggest bump, but again, this is all speculation on my (and your) part.

Is this really that big of a deal. I mean, do the 10 black kids that are in my 1L class really represent that much of a threat to you all? You'd think that law schools across the country were being infested with black kids - black kids here, black kids there, every-f-ing-where I turn all I see is a black kid. It's like Invasion of the Body Snatchers Black Affirmative Action Charity Case.

Yeah, not quite.

Your conservative, middle class white way of life is not quite in the danger it's being made out to be.
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: 1654134681665465 on August 30, 2007, 03:05:56 PM
Quote
  Your conservative, middle class white way of life is not quite in the danger it's being made out to be.

Oh, great-you nailed it on the head.  All white people are against AA because it is a threat to our way of life.  You are so angry and so wrong.  Stop blaming other people for what you don't like about your life. 
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: ashVU08 on November 07, 2007, 06:23:08 PM

I'll give you Jim Crow, at least among some older folks (though you probably don't know them).  But that's the most innocuous element presented, and no one has established how experiencing this as a kid directly impacts people today.

What?   Something that directly affected my parents couldn't possibly affect me?  Or, something that directly affected my grandparents couldn't possibly affect me through my parents?

huh?

You're not going far enough in your analysis.  I'd suggest that even if you had been directly impacted by Jim Crow laws or lynchings or even slavery, you're not directly affected if it's not happening to you at this very moment.  Once the moment where you're being discriminated against passes, you're no longer affected in any way whatsoever.  :)

TITCR.  FINALLY we're getting some clear thinking here.   ;)


1) Jim Crow/segregation lasted well into the 1960's because Southern states were extremely resistant to changing their "way of life". People that were in high school and elementary schools at that point are NOT all old, ailing people. In fact, I recently spoke with a black woman in her late 50's or early 60's who was the first black person to enter her high school in 1968.  1968 was not that long ago.
2) "Once the moment where you're being discriminated against passes, you're no longer affected in any way whatsoever.  :)" SERIOUSLY??? Hmmm... so psychological damage must not be relevant... and you must believe that everyone lives in their own bubble -- the discrimination that happens to my mother or grandmother in no way has anything to do with me?? GET REAL.

Although I wasn't tied up with a chain and made to work out in the blazing sun all day with the occasional whip across my back or experience segregation does not mean that I don't experience its effects. You cannot deny that decades of housing discrimination(minorities were not allowed to live in Levittown thank ya very much), loan discrimination (ever heard of "red-lining"?), and job discrimination have not stopped affecting the way that a majority of black people (and other minorities for that matter) live. If a black grandmother couldn't obtain a high paying job simply because she was black will determine the resources and opportunities her children have and generations to follow. I'm not saying that people can't rise up out of a bleak situation, but if you've been surrounded by poverty/low income, violence, and the door just keeps getting shut in your face for your entire life it's extremely difficult to get the motivation to do anything different.
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: Leo on November 08, 2007, 10:32:02 PM
The truth is that no one living today actually experienced slavery, which makes reparations an inherently flawed concept.  I would, however, support free passage back to Africa for anyone who desires it -- to the extent any descendant has a desire to return to their ancestral homeland, that would appear an appropriate remedy.


 :D :D :D
LMAO!!!

What makes this even funnier is that I know you're completely sincere.
I swear, it's like you guys struggle to top each other.
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: 1654134681665465 on November 09, 2007, 09:14:10 AM
I'm not saying that people can't rise up out of a bleak situation, but if you've been surrounded by poverty/low income, violence, and the door just keeps getting shut in your face for your entire life it's extremely difficult to get the motivation to do anything different.

Yeah, but the door isn't being shut in the face of African American's anymore-therefore we do not need AA.  I could see the need for in in the 60s, 70s, and 80s but the current generation of college kids and young adults didn't grow up during an era of severe racism.  That doesn't mean that none of them have ever experienced racism, but that they are just as likely to be victims now as anyone of another race is. 
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: Kirk Lazarus on November 09, 2007, 09:23:37 AM
I'm not saying that people can't rise up out of a bleak situation, but if you've been surrounded by poverty/low income, violence, and the door just keeps getting shut in your face for your entire life it's extremely difficult to get the motivation to do anything different.

Yeah, but the door isn't being shut in the face of African American's anymore-therefore we do not need AA.  I could see the need for in in the 60s, 70s, and 80s but the current generation of college kids and young adults didn't grow up during an era of severe racism.  That doesn't mean that none of them have ever experienced racism, but that they are just as likely to be victims now as anyone of another race is. 


link?
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: 1654134681665465 on November 09, 2007, 09:55:59 AM
After you give me a link that shows that racism in America warrants the use of AA. 
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: right now on November 09, 2007, 10:01:56 AM
but the current generation of college kids and young adults didn't grow up during an era of severe racism. 

are you kidding?  no you're not.  i know better than that.  goodness.

After you give me a link that shows that racism in America warrants the use of AA. 

no.  the presumption should be that there IS racism in America.  look at the history.  you're telling me that you think that social engineering can in a few short decades so fundamentally change the culture of a nation?  if you honestly think that, you must be some sort of bolshevik.

again, the baseline presumption is that there is racism.  prove that it's not longer an issue and i'll gladly throw AA out the window.

She was being sarcastic.  I wish she was still around.   :(

who was still around?
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: 1654134681665465 on November 09, 2007, 10:23:43 AM
Actually, I believe that any government program that benefits one group over another based solely on race should have the burden to prove that it is still needed and that the societal flaws that it was created to address are still prevalent.  If it can be shown that racism is still prevalent in America then AA should continue for a few more years and then be reassessed.  A limitless race-based program that always assumes that America is racist is going to continue even after racism is no longer a legitimate issue. 
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: right now on November 09, 2007, 10:26:37 AM
I believe that...

so once we prove something, we should have to prove it over and over and over again.  that's great.  good luck with that.
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: 1654134681665465 on November 09, 2007, 10:31:55 AM
As far as history, I DO think that American social culture can and has changed very quickly.  There is a huge difference between the treatment of blacks in the 50s and today.  That is only 50 years.  Look at the acceptance of homosexuality, which has changed dramatically in only a couple of decades.  Saying that because slavery and racism occurred for hundreds of years in the US, that it cannot be changed in a few short decades is completely false. 

First of all, it hasn't been a "few short decades".  The abolition and equal rights movements were well under way before the major transformations that occurred in the 1860s and 1960s.  With greater access to media and information (thanks in large part to the internet), communities are no longer closed minded bubbles like they were in the past.  I believe that the social ideologies of America have changed and continue to change very rapidly. 

Another example would be Nazi Germany.  Look what a "few short decades" did them?  They went from the holocaust to one of the biggest allies of Israel. 
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: right now on November 09, 2007, 10:34:40 AM
As far as history, I DO think that American social culture can and has changed very quickly.  There is a huge difference between the treatment of blacks in the 50s and today.  That is only 50 years.  Look at the acceptance of homosexuality, which has changed dramatically in only a couple of decades.  Saying that because slavery and racism occurred for hundreds of years in the US, that it cannot be changed in a few short decades is completely false. 

First of all, it hasn't been a "few short decades".  The abolition and equal rights movements were well under way before the major transformations that occurred in the 1860s and 1960s.  With greater access to media and information (thanks in large part to the internet), communities are no longer closed minded bubbles like they were in the past.  I believe that the social ideologies of America have changed and continue to change very rapidly. 

Another example would be Nazi Germany.  Look what a "few short decades" did them?  They went from the holocaust to one of the biggest allies of Israel. 

i see now.  you're not so much a racist as you are a naive optimist. 

here's a tip: people are bastards.  bastard-coated bastards with bastard filling. 

the world's a much nastier place than you think it is.  accept it now because it just gets more painful to do later.

::kills self::
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: 1654134681665465 on November 09, 2007, 10:40:04 AM
I believe that...

so once we prove something, we should have to prove it over and over and over again.  that's great.  good luck with that.

Um, for a program that is trying to correct a social flaw, yes.  You can't just say "racism once existed in America, therefore it still exists".  Isn't the point of AA to correct some of the harms of racism?  Once those wrongs have been corrected wouldn't AA have accomplished its purpose?  You wouldn't keep the program after it has accomplished its goal. 
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: 1654134681665465 on November 09, 2007, 10:41:45 AM
I love that you assumed I was a racist just because I don't support AA.  Do you really believe in AA for the purpose of addressing racism or do you just have a deep-seeded sense of entitlement?  I'm leaning towards the latter. 
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: Hannibal on November 09, 2007, 10:44:52 AM
Actually, I believe that any government program that benefits one group over another based solely on race should have the burden to prove that it is still needed and that the societal flaws that it was created to address are still prevalent.  If it can be shown that racism is still prevalent in America then AA should continue for a few more years and then be reassessed.  A limitless race-based program that always assumes that America is racist is going to continue even after racism is no longer a legitimate issue. 

No.  It must be proved that the societal flaws that it was created to address are actually fixed by the government program.

I just don't care anymore.  If you want to claim that your life sucks or that you deserve special treatmetn because of your skin color, that is your right.  Just don't expect me to buy into it or give you the special treatment you demand.
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: 1654134681665465 on November 09, 2007, 10:44:56 AM
i see now.  you're not so much a racist as you are a naive optimist. 

here's a tip: people are bastards.  bastard-coated bastards with bastard filling. 

the world's a much nastier place than you think it is.  accept it now because it just gets more painful to do later.

::kills self::

The world is a nasty place and blacks aren't the only victims of its nastiness.  That's the difference.  You seem to believe that blacks are the only ones who experience racism or who are victims.  FYI, other people experience racisms as well (including white people).  So why should one race get a program that tries to make up for racism and the others don't?  Again, I understand the use of it when it was originally implemented, BUT unless you can show that the playing field is no longer level, then it should be terminated. 
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: 1654134681665465 on November 09, 2007, 10:46:54 AM


No.  It must be proved that the societal flaws that it was created to address are actually fixed by the government program.



Hahahaha, that is exactly what i said.  And those supporting and running the program have the burden to prove that those flaws still haven't been fixed. 
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: 1654134681665465 on November 09, 2007, 10:49:47 AM
The established phrase is "deep-seated."

http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001815.html

Thanks. 
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: ashVU08 on November 12, 2007, 04:12:56 PM
i see now.  you're not so much a racist as you are a naive optimist. 

here's a tip: people are bastards.  bastard-coated bastards with bastard filling. 

the world's a much nastier place than you think it is.  accept it now because it just gets more painful to do later.

::kills self::

The world is a nasty place and blacks aren't the only victims of its nastiness.  That's the difference.  You seem to believe that blacks are the only ones who experience racism or who are victims.  FYI, other people experience racisms as well (including white people).  So why should one race get a program that tries to make up for racism and the others don't?  Again, I understand the use of it when it was originally implemented, BUT unless you can show that the playing field is no longer level, then it should be terminated. 


Yes, everyone experiences some racism that is true. But have white people suffered the same effects as black people and other minorities as a result of racism? No. It's very easy to say that we've all suffered the same when you belong to a privileged race or socioeconomic class that allows you wake up every morning and not have to worry about the bs that comes along with years and years of negative stereotypes and discrimination produced by various social institutions. And as much as people would like to believe that racism or discrimination based on other factors, doesn't exist anymore, it DOES, and it's effects last even longer, hence the reasoning behind affirmative action. Opportunities to better one's life come with money/wealth and networking, which is something that black people (and other disadvantaged groups) in general do not have a lot of because of years of discrimination in jobs and education. The goal of affirmative action is to recognize this and correct/alleviate the problem caused by the practices of social institutions by placing disadvantaged groups (poor people, minorities, women, etc.) in places where they are underrepresented so that they as a group can advance their status in society. If you belong to a group with a more privileged social status (men, wealthy, whites, etc) it's difficult to understand or agree with that reasoning because the benefits that you've enjoyed for so long are suddenly being threatened.
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: 1654134681665465 on November 13, 2007, 08:53:21 AM
I don't see how those benefits would be threatened.  Instead, I would worry that those who have worked hard and deserve a job/position out of MERIT wouldn't be getting it.  I also think that AA based on race wrong because other factors have be used to discriminate as well. Religion, economic status, political beliefs, etc.  If you look into anyone's past you can find examples of discrimination at some point.  As for as "networking" and that other stuff, those are connections that most people make during college and doesn't require the government to give them a boost. 

And for "waking up EVERY morning fearing the bs that other people are going to throw at you"...   Wow.  You must be so afraid of being black that you are probably more conscious of your skin color than most white who come in contact with you.  It is sad that you think you live in a world where every white person lays awake at night thinking of ways to oppress blacks and other minorities.  It sounds like you are the one who has racist views. 
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: kat1231 on November 13, 2007, 09:32:32 AM
If you look into anyone's past you can find examples of discrimination at some point. 

the degree of discrimination varies greatly, however.
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: 1654134681665465 on November 13, 2007, 10:40:23 AM
At times, yes.  But there were certainly groups who suffered severe persecution.  I really don't think that you or anyone else can say with any degree of legitimacy which group had it worse. 
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: kat1231 on November 13, 2007, 11:25:49 AM
At times, yes.  But there were certainly groups who suffered severe persecution.  I really don't think that you or anyone else can say with any degree of legitimacy which group had it worse. 

You're right, it's impossible to say with any legitimacy that particular racial/ethnic groups (say, African-Americans) have suffered more than others (say, white anglo-saxon protestants).
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: 1654134681665465 on November 13, 2007, 12:22:59 PM
Exactly!  And how some groups continue to complain about the suffering of their ancestors, even though they personally do not experience it (yet they still want to be repaid for suffering they did not endure.  It's as if they are the only people in the history of the world who had to overcome some sort of an obstacle. 
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: kat1231 on November 13, 2007, 01:30:01 PM
Exactly!  And how some groups continue to complain about the suffering of their ancestors, even though they personally do not experience it (yet they still want to be repaid for suffering they did not endure.  It's as if they are the only people in the history of the world who had to overcome some sort of an obstacle. 

It's so great to live in a world where certain groups (say, African-Americans) whose ancestors suffered no longer face any kind of discrimination at all.
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: utilitarianjac on November 13, 2007, 01:56:09 PM
Why I Support Affirmative Action

Trace the history of Africans in America.

Slavery began in the United States around 1619 and continued through the end of the Civil War in 1865 (246 years).

Following the end of slavery, African Americans faced the "separate but equal" lunacy of the Jim Crow era until 1964 (99 years).

Individuals of African descent have been in the United States for roughly 388 years. Of these, they have faced harsh discrimation for 345 years.

Now we expect all African Americans to compete with us. Is this fair? I think not.

President Lyndon B. Johnson compared affirmative action to a race. Two men start at the same time, but one is in shackles and chains. If the chains are removed halfway through the race, he cannot be expected to compete with the other man, who is far ahead of him.

What a perfect analogy for us to consider.
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: hopper on November 13, 2007, 02:58:50 PM
I predict that CaliforniaCougar will find a job awaiting him/her in the Jena, La state's attorney's office.
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: Kirk Lazarus on November 13, 2007, 03:55:35 PM
I predict that CaliforniaCougar will find a job awaiting him/her in the Jena, La state's attorney's office.

qft.
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: ashVU08 on November 13, 2007, 08:19:08 PM
Why I Support Affirmative Action

Trace the history of Africans in America.

Slavery began in the United States around 1619 and continued through the end of the Civil War in 1865 (246 years).

Following the end of slavery, African Americans faced the "separate but equal" lunacy of the Jim Crow era until 1964 (99 years).

Individuals of African descent have been in the United States for roughly 388 years. Of these, they have faced harsh discrimation for 345 years.

Now we expect all African Americans to compete with us. Is this fair? I think not.

President Lyndon B. Johnson compared affirmative action to a race. Two men start at the same time, but one is in shackles and chains. If the chains are removed halfway through the race, he cannot be expected to compete with the other man, who is far ahead of him.

What a perfect analogy for us to consider.

Very well stated.
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: Ilovecheese on November 13, 2007, 10:39:48 PM
Why I Support Affirmative Action

Trace the history of Africans in America.

Slavery began in the United States around 1619 and continued through the end of the Civil War in 1865 (246 years).

Following the end of slavery, African Americans faced the "separate but equal" lunacy of the Jim Crow era until 1964 (99 years).

Individuals of African descent have been in the United States for roughly 388 years. Of these, they have faced harsh discrimation for 345 years.

Now we expect all African Americans to compete with us. Is this fair? I think not.

President Lyndon B. Johnson compared affirmative action to a race. Two men start at the same time, but one is in shackles and chains. If the chains are removed halfway through the race, he cannot be expected to compete with the other man, who is far ahead of him.

What a perfect analogy for us to consider.

very well stated.  But I think many people who oppose AA oppose not the policy itself, but the way it is implemented.  A lot of minorities who benefit from AA come from successful families.  If AA was made to be based on an economic status then, in my opinion, it would serve its purpose better, benefiting those who really need help.
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: Kirk Lazarus on November 14, 2007, 04:33:37 AM
OMFG!!!!

None of the AA supporters (as far as I know) has denied that economic status should be a factor in admissions decisions.

However, every new wave of anti-AA folk seem to think the concept of economic status as a replacement to the present regime to be somehow novel or interesting.  This is not the case.  We've heard it dozens, hundreds of times.

We've put forth the idea that although poverty is a burden, it's a burden independent from racial discrimination, which is a separate burden entirely.  There can be multiple burdens on a person.  Economic status does not subsume everything else.

So, to those of you who think you're clever in positing an economic test as a replacement for the status quo:  No.  You're not.  In fact, I agree that economic status is important (and we, since I obviously speak for every rational person  :) ).  All you've done is circumvent discussion of why you feel certain people haven't been burdened by racial discrimination, and why such people shouldn't get consideration separate from their economic status.  Congrats. 

 :)



It is obvious why they support socio-economic AA as a replacement for the current regime...it simply would primarily benefit whites while poor blacks and middle class blacks would be shut out of our nation's best schools.
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: alternapiggy on November 14, 2007, 05:36:43 AM
It is obvious why they support socio-economic AA as a replacement for the current regime...it simply would primarily benefit whites while poor blacks and middle class blacks would be shut out of our nation's best schools.

socioeconomic AA would benefit primarily whites?
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: Kirk Lazarus on November 14, 2007, 05:44:33 AM
It is obvious why they support socio-economic AA as a replacement for the current regime...it simply would primarily benefit whites while poor blacks and middle class blacks would be shut out of our nation's best schools.

socioeconomic AA would benefit primarily whites?

duh.
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: alternapiggy on November 14, 2007, 05:45:35 AM
It is obvious why they support socio-economic AA as a replacement for the current regime...it simply would primarily benefit whites while poor blacks and middle class blacks would be shut out of our nation's best schools.

socioeconomic AA would benefit primarily whites?

duh.

::bows to the yaleness of galt::

but wouldn't it still disproportionately benefit URM's?
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: Kirk Lazarus on November 14, 2007, 06:01:22 AM
It is obvious why they support socio-economic AA as a replacement for the current regime...it simply would primarily benefit whites while poor blacks and middle class blacks would be shut out of our nation's best schools.

socioeconomic AA would benefit primarily whites?

duh.

::bows to the yaleness of galt::

but wouldn't it still disproportionately benefit URM's?

I don't think so. Affirmative Action by design benefits the highest scoring members of a preferred group. So if the preferred group is people who are economically disadvantaged, then the highest scoring members of the group will get preference. Poor whites score higher than middle class blacks. Poor blacks score the worst out of everyone.

The reality is that poor Blacks aren't going to get in under any regime. What socio-economic affirmative action does is simply redistribute some of the spots that are going to middle class blacks to poorer whites.

My "duh" wasn't to be mean or short with you because there is an argument (not very compelling in my view) that socio-economic affirmative action can benefit blacks and whites. SES for example is an analysis that takes into account several different factors including minority status and income. I thought you were trying to be funny by asking me, "Socioeconomic AA would primarily benefit whites" when I said in the previous post "it simply would primarily benefit whites." I can see now that it was an honest question.

ETA: The normative question is still open. Namely, is socio-economic affirmative action something we ought to do even if it harms members of traditionally disadvantaged racial groups? Maybe you might say that an analysis based on income comports more with the Constitution. Yet, if the argument is that race discrimination, even benign race discrimination, is wrong, then wouldn't economic affirmative action have the same problem analytically? You might suggest that the stigma assigned to minorities professionally might be reduced by virtue of an affirmative action system that is more inclusive. Still, race is more identifiable professionally than income. Thus, whites could benefit from AA (much like they do with legacy) and not have a stigma attached while Blacks cannot hide their color. So there's still much left to be debated. My point was only that I don't think many proponents of SEAA on this thread are concerned with the normative question, but are more selfishly motivated.
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: alternapiggy on November 14, 2007, 06:12:29 AM
It is obvious why they support socio-economic AA as a replacement for the current regime...it simply would primarily benefit whites while poor blacks and middle class blacks would be shut out of our nation's best schools.

socioeconomic AA would benefit primarily whites?

duh.

::bows to the yaleness of galt::

but wouldn't it still disproportionately benefit URM's?

I don't think so. Affirmative Action by design benefits the highest scoring members of a preferred group. So if the preferred group is people who are economically disadvantaged, then the highest scoring members of the group will get preference. Poor whites score higher than middle class blacks. Poor blacks score the worst out of everyone.

The reality is that poor Blacks aren't going to get in under any regime. What socio-economic affirmative action does is simply redistribute some of the spots that are going to middle class blacks to poorer whites.

My "duh" wasn't to be mean or short with you because there is an argument (not very compelling in my view) that socio-economic affirmative action can benefit blacks and whites. SES for example is an analysis that takes into account several different factors including minority status and income. I thought you were trying to be funny by asking me, "Socioeconomic AA would primarily benefit whites" when I said in the previous post "it simply would primarily benefit whites." I can see now that it was an honest question.

never say you're sorry.  it's a sign of weakness.  ;)

the reason why i asked about your previous statement was because i remember a little red birdie saying once that she could use income diversity as a proxy for racial diversity when it came to making sure that new housing developments were mixed in character.  i can see how the scoring factor would make the analysis in the schools context different.

what i think needs to happen is that schools need to do race and socioeconomic status AA (which i believe they do already), but highlight the socioeconomic factor more so that there isn't this impression out there that poor whites are getting hosed.
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: 20+ Andrew Hill Albums on December 20, 2007, 10:31:17 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFmzOtYHC1k (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFmzOtYHC1k)
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: Leo on December 28, 2007, 05:41:16 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFmzOtYHC1k (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFmzOtYHC1k)

 :-[

Okay, you win this round
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: greenplaid on December 30, 2007, 11:10:50 AM
It is obvious why they support socio-economic AA as a replacement for the current regime...it simply would primarily benefit whites while poor blacks and middle class blacks would be shut out of our nation's best schools.

socioeconomic AA would benefit primarily whites?
[/quote]


 Poor whites score higher than middle class blacks. 

WHY  ???
Will this change in 25 years if the why is not understood?
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: vercingetorix on January 01, 2008, 10:18:32 PM
people hate poverty, not specific racial or ethnic groups. who would object to hanging out with brad pitt, denzel washington, benito del toro and lucy liu?  not many.  hutu-tutsi conflict? same race, same ethnic group, same region.  people always find reasons to hate one another.  racism wasn't invented by whitey.
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: filet o' fish on January 01, 2008, 11:36:15 PM
racism wasn't invented by whitey.

Surely not.

However an examination of the racial power/wealth dynamics throughout history paint a very suggestive and compelling narrative, no?
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: Astro on January 03, 2008, 05:31:32 AM
people hate poverty, not specific racial or ethnic groups. who would object to hanging out with brad pitt, denzel washington, benito del toro and lucy liu?  not many.  hutu-tutsi conflict? same race, same ethnic group, same region.  people always find reasons to hate one another.  racism wasn't invented by whitey.


1.  You may want to recheck your history books for this one.  Whitey had a lot to do with it.
2.  Further, racism as we know it WAS invented by whitey.  But whitey certainly isn't the only one who can be racist, or who has been racist in the past.  For the first point, see dynamics of power in race relations.
3.  Beer wins.
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: UnbiasedObserver on January 03, 2008, 08:07:38 AM
Jumping into a conversation I haven't been a part of, I support affirmative action in practice, not just theory, based on my experience in the classroom.  If I were running admissions at Princeton, and I had a choice between a 1550 SAT from Phillips Exeter and a 1150 from the public high school my 8th graders will go to (where half drop out), I'd pick the 1150 because that student is smarter.  If someone can manage to score an 1150 from that high school where they have to navigate violence, drugs, unruly classrooms and ineffectual teaching, chances are they taught themselves.  Chances are they will do more with Princeton professors than the 1550 will.  Of course they will probably not be as well read, and I'll have to start teaching them at a lower level, but I think at the end of 4 years, the 1150 student will end up further along than the 1550 student.

And if I had 100 seats and I had 100 Exeter students and 100 stand-out students from failing high schools, I wouldn't take a single Exeter student.  And that has nothing to do with ethics or guilt or history or any of that.  If I were the most conservative person out there, but knew what I know now about the dismal state of our worst public schools, I'd take every single kid who grew up with nothing (not even a school that knew how to protect them let alone teach them) over every single kid who was nurtured all through school.

I respect your honesty.  It's good to see. (Although I wouldn't go so far as to take EVERY person from the one high school.)

It also raises an interesting point indirectly, about intelligence.  Many (I'm not saying all) people with those 1550 SATs feel that they "earned" their great scores and good grades.  Many people cannot see how much a factor their environment plays. 

The critics are going to argue that it should remain a meritocratic system.  Yet if we pick just the 1550 SAT student, are we really basing it solely on the merits of the student? No, and as such, we should consider the environment in its proper context.   

(And, just for the record, I am not one of those people who went to a poor school.  I had a great secondary education at a private school.)

(And, while I'm on this topic, it's not solely a black-white issue.  Studies have shown that white kids do poorly at these schools too.  They need help too, and they're not getting it either.)
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: Astro on January 03, 2008, 08:14:49 AM
people hate poverty, not specific racial or ethnic groups. who would object to hanging out with brad pitt, denzel washington, benito del toro and lucy liu?  not many.  hutu-tutsi conflict? same race, same ethnic group, same region.  people always find reasons to hate one another.  racism wasn't invented by whitey.

hey i'd like to borrow those rose-coloured glasses when you're done with them.

i agree with your last sentence, though i object to your use of the term "whitey."  i find it racist and offensive and i demand an immediate apology.



 :D
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: vercingetorix on January 03, 2008, 02:21:20 PM
i think the most xenophobic, racist people on the planet are the Japanese. they beat whitey every which way, heck they also hate whitey.
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: BearlyLegal on January 03, 2008, 03:08:08 PM
Yeah, I am starting to not feel it either. At the very please call me cracker. Thank you.  >:(
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: lp1283 on January 03, 2008, 03:28:59 PM
I'm not even white, but I thought the same thing. It caught me off guard when I was reading bits of this thread. Mind as well call me a spickey or black people, blakeys and asian people, chinkeys...not cool or acceptable at all.  >:( >:( >:(

 
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: Astro on January 03, 2008, 08:15:24 PM
i think the most xenophobic, racist people on the planet are the Japanese. they beat whitey every which way, heck they also hate whitey.


No point proven other than "Not just white people are racist."  So?
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: UnbiasedObserver on January 03, 2008, 09:44:43 PM
Jumping into a conversation I haven't been a part of, I support affirmative action in practice, not just theory, based on my experience in the classroom.  If I were running admissions at Princeton, and I had a choice between a 1550 SAT from Phillips Exeter and a 1150 from the public high school my 8th graders will go to (where half drop out), I'd pick the 1150 because that student is smarter.  If someone can manage to score an 1150 from that high school where they have to navigate violence, drugs, unruly classrooms and ineffectual teaching, chances are they taught themselves.  Chances are they will do more with Princeton professors than the 1550 will.  Of course they will probably not be as well read, and I'll have to start teaching them at a lower level, but I think at the end of 4 years, the 1150 student will end up further along than the 1550 student.

And if I had 100 seats and I had 100 Exeter students and 100 stand-out students from failing high schools, I wouldn't take a single Exeter student.  And that has nothing to do with ethics or guilt or history or any of that.  If I were the most conservative person out there, but knew what I know now about the dismal state of our worst public schools, I'd take every single kid who grew up with nothing (not even a school that knew how to protect them let alone teach them) over every single kid who was nurtured all through school.

I respect your honesty.  It's good to see. (Although I wouldn't go so far as to take EVERY person from the one high school.)

It also raises an interesting point indirectly, about intelligence.  Many (I'm not saying all) people with those 1550 SATs feel that they "earned" their great scores and good grades.  Many people cannot see how much a factor their environment plays. 

The critics are going to argue that it should remain a meritocratic system.  Yet if we pick just the 1550 SAT student, are we really basing it solely on the merits of the student? No, and as such, we should consider the environment in its proper context.   

(And, just for the record, I am not one of those people who went to a poor school.  I had a great secondary education at a private school.)

(And, while I'm on this topic, it's not solely a black-white issue.  Studies have shown that white kids do poorly at these schools too.  They need help too, and they're not getting it either.)

At what point though--I ask the critics--do we let being a student be about learning instead of about producing results?  If getting into college is about "merits," then high school is s performance instead of a chance to learn and risk and grow.  If you have to have taken AP classes in order to merit entrance into the top colleges, then middle school is also about performance and not growth.  If you have to be in Pre-AP classes in order to merit a seat in AP classes, then elementary school is about performance and not growth.  And this isn't just some guy talking on a message board.  This is exactly what is happening in public schools right now with our era of super-high-stakes testing.

Admission for schooling shouldn't be about merit, it should be about potential.  That't one of the reasons people get offended when a "URM" gets selected with lower numbers than them.  They think they "earned" a seat and are therefore entitled to it. 

I will be attending an Ivy League law school, one of the best in the nation, and I'm damn lucky to be.  That isn't to say my numbers are below average, they're not.  And it's not to say I haven't worked hard and done interesting things, I have.  But I'm damn lucky because Penn decided that there's a brain in my head worth molding.  Here I am, some kid who grew up in poverty, going to Penn.  That's pretty amazing, at least to me.  I didn't merit this seat; I just still have some untapped potential.

And once I graduate, it still won't be about merit, it will be about skills and potential.  An organization that hires me will be betting on my potential to do their organization good, and that I have the skills to do so as well.

Well said.  You have a good head on your shoulders.  I can see why Penn chose you. 

I am proud of what I have done, but I also realize that if I am able to get into a T14, I will be extremely lucky.  (Heck, I'm lucky to get into Tier 2 schools.)
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: vercingetorix on January 04, 2008, 07:05:38 PM
i think the most xenophobic, racist people on the planet are the Japanese. they beat whitey every which way, heck they also hate whitey.


No point proven other than "Not just white people are racist."  So?


the point my friend is that white people are quite often the least racist of any racial/ethnic background.  you don't have to look around too far to find worlds without white influence where racism rears her ugly head not only throughout history (one reason I mention Japan; you could also look at China, the Indian sub-continent, the Persian empire, north and south american Native American tribes) but today (look at Zimbabwe and the persecution of white farmers).  people in power, regardless of racial/ethnic background love to take it out on those who do not look like them, especially those who least resemble them.  white, industrialized societies have often been at the forefront of opening up their economies/countries to people of various ethnic/cultural/racial and religious backgrounds.  they condemned slavery and trumpeted liberte, egalite, fraternite long before many other societies.  in many areas of the world these conditions of outright slavery still exist (China, the African Continent).  have we obtained an ideal society? hardly.  would it be better if Latinos or African Americans (whatever these imprecise tags mean...much like whitey) were in the racial/ethnic majority? not likely.
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: Astro on January 04, 2008, 07:53:38 PM
i think the most xenophobic, racist people on the planet are the Japanese. they beat whitey every which way, heck they also hate whitey.


No point proven other than "Not just white people are racist."  So?


the point my friend is that white people are quite often the least racist of any racial/ethnic background.  you don't have to look around too far to find worlds without white influence where racism rears her ugly head not only throughout history (one reason I mention Japan; you could also look at China, the Indian sub-continent, the Persian empire, north and south american Native American tribes) but today (look at Zimbabwe and the persecution of white farmers).  people in power, regardless of racial/ethnic background love to take it out on those who do not look like them, especially those who least resemble them.  white, industrialized societies have often been at the forefront of opening up their economies/countries to people of various ethnic/cultural/racial and religious backgrounds.  they condemned slavery and trumpeted liberte, egalite, fraternite long before many other societies.  in many areas of the world these conditions of outright slavery still exist (China, the African Continent).  have we obtained an ideal society? hardly.  would it be better if Latinos or African Americans (whatever these imprecise tags mean...much like whitey) were in the racial/ethnic majority? not likely.

I don't know how to wade out of all these non-sequiturs.  In fact, I've said these things so many times on this board, I won't even bother.  I will say this:

1)  You've still proven nothing but "Other (non-white) people are racist too."  We all know this.  Unfortunately, it's irrelevant to this thread, or to the point that was being discussed.
2)  The pervasive and systemic racism we know today was mostly the result of a shift in European attitudes in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries.  That doesn't mean that racism didn't exist all over the world before that, but it was simply just not to the same degree or with such devastating effect.  Nor does that mean that it was ever limited to just whites.  But those other "types" of racism (and please don't confuse xenophobia with racism) are -- again -- irrelevant to this thread, because they are irrelevant to affirmative action.
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: Astro on January 04, 2008, 07:59:19 PM
I know.  I should've used another one.
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: Astro on January 04, 2008, 08:07:37 PM
I know.  I should've used another one.

may that be a lesson to you.

One well learned.
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: vercingetorix on January 04, 2008, 09:51:23 PM

2)  The pervasive and systemic racism we know today was mostly the result of a shift in European attitudes in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries.  That doesn't mean that racism didn't exist all over the world before that, but it was simply just not to the same degree or with such devastating effect.  Nor does that mean that it was ever limited to just whites.  But those other "types" of racism (and please don't confuse xenophobia with racism) are -- again -- irrelevant to this thread, because they are irrelevant to affirmative action.

[/quote]

and now i put you to your proof dude.  this is pure folly.  white racism doesn't begin to compare to racism of other races/ethnic groups throughout human history.  you've made this insane point, now show me the facts.  and not some lame "just look at (insert century)".  i know with a high degree of certainty that what you have asserted does not stand up to careful historic analysis. 
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: Astro on January 04, 2008, 09:58:39 PM
LOLZ

Okay, buddy.  "Pure folly"?  "High degree of certainty"?  "Careful historic analysis"?  I'm going to leave that for others to laugh it.  This isn't worth my time.

If you do want to make this worth my time, define "racism".  Make it thorough.  Then maybe we can talk.
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: vercingetorix on January 04, 2008, 10:01:39 PM
i knew it man.  you just cry racism and then sit down, shut up and color when people ask you to back up some of your outrageous assertions.  nice job.
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: Astro on January 04, 2008, 10:07:43 PM
i knew it man.  you just cry racism and then sit down, shut up and color when people ask you to back up some of your outrageous assertions.  nice job.

1.  I didn't cry racism.
2.  I didn't shut up.
3.  I'd like to take a poll to see which one of our assertions people actually deem "outrageous". 

In fact, all I'm asking of you for us to have a real conversation is the following:

1.  What assertions do you think I'm making?
2.  How would you define "racism"?  Not WHO is racist, but WHAT is racism.
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: Astro on January 04, 2008, 10:17:52 PM
i knew it man.  you just cry racism and then sit down, shut up and color when people ask you to back up some of your outrageous assertions.  nice job.

1.  I didn't cry racism.
2.  I didn't shut up.
3.  I'd like to take a poll to see which one of our assertions people actually deem "outrageous". 

In fact, all I'm asking of you for us to have a real conversation is the following:

1.  What assertions do you think I'm making?
2.  How would you define "racism"?  Not WHO is racist, but WHAT is racism.

i think he's saying: there's nothing special about white racism and that all people are racist in the same way.  it's kind of hard to get past the shrillness but that's what i'm getting.

Yeah, I know.  I think he's mistaking my argument for a counter to his, though.
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: vercingetorix on January 04, 2008, 10:38:59 PM


i think he's saying: there's nothing special about white racism and that all people are racist in the same way.  it's kind of hard to get past the shrillness but that's what i'm getting.
[/quote]

TITCR

additionally, the assertion to which i take umbrage was boldfaced for your convenience.  i will repeat it here for your convenience

"The pervasive and systemic racism we know today was mostly the result of a shift in European attitudes in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries.  That doesn't mean that racism didn't exist all over the world before that, but it was simply just not to the same degree or with such devastating effect."

this is utter tripe and is largely without historical (and mind you recorded history is on my argument's side here since whites have only been "in power" for about 600 years) merit. not saying white euros are angels, they just aren't the ones who have perpetrated racism with the most "devastating effect" as you so erroneously contend. 

as for what is "racism"?  that is an excellent question.  is Dave Matthews African-American?  what does it mean to be African-American definitionally?  what in god's name is an Asian-American?  or what is a Latino for that matter? all of these categories are hilarious attempts to conveniently compartmentalize people.  what a joke.  even European-American is silly.  Greeks have far more in common with Turks than Finns. the whole thing (and here is where i get to AA) is laughable.  my niece is 1/2 Mexican and yet she has bond hair and blue eyes.  is she any less Mexican, any less American? will she get preferential treatment for admissions to school when she gets around to applying (you bet your ass she will).  is it deserved?
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: filet o' fish on January 04, 2008, 11:30:25 PM
Wow...upper middle class white conservatives fighting with militant liberals and minorities on AA, something tells me that this thread will never achieve any sort of resolution :o


Kind of like white Marines killing dark-skinned Arabs in the middle east and calling it heroism.

 ::)
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: Astro on January 05, 2008, 12:21:10 AM

Quote
i think he's saying: there's nothing special about white racism and that all people are racist in the same way.  it's kind of hard to get past the shrillness but that's what i'm getting.

TITCR

additionally, the assertion to which i take umbrage was boldfaced for your convenience.  i will repeat it here for your convenience

"The pervasive and systemic racism we know today was mostly the result of a shift in European attitudes in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries.  That doesn't mean that racism didn't exist all over the world before that, but it was simply just not to the same degree or with such devastating effect."

this is utter tripe and is largely without historical (and mind you recorded history is on my argument's side here since whites have only been "in power" for about 600 years) merit. not saying white euros are angels, they just aren't the ones who have perpetrated racism with the most "devastating effect" as you so erroneously contend. 

as for what is "racism"?  that is an excellent question.  is Dave Matthews African-American?  what does it mean to be African-American definitionally?  what in god's name is an Asian-American?  or what is a Latino for that matter? all of these categories are hilarious attempts to conveniently compartmentalize people.  what a joke.  even European-American is silly.  Greeks have far more in common with Turks than Finns. the whole thing (and here is where i get to AA) is laughable.  my niece is 1/2 Mexican and yet she has bond hair and blue eyes.  is she any less Mexican, any less American? will she get preferential treatment for admissions to school when she gets around to applying (you bet your ass she will).  is it deserved?


I notice that you didn't answer either of my two questions, but you sure are fired up.

Just to remind you, my questions were:

1)  What assertions do you think I'm making?  (I'll help you: I want you to put my words in your words so I can see how you're understanding me.)
2)  How do you define "racism"?  (I'll help you again: I mean, what is racism, and how does it hurt people?)

I said "Not WHO is racist," and then you went talking about all sorts of people.  I want you to tell me WHAT you consider "racism" so I can see if we're even talking about the same thing.  I don't want to have to assume anything from other things you are saying -- I want you to tell me directly. 
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: Astro on January 05, 2008, 12:23:34 AM
Just to be clear: I'm using a patronizing tone because I think I'm better than other people.  Elephants in the room and all that.
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: filet o' fish on January 05, 2008, 12:33:40 AM
there's actually shockingly little support for the troops, in my opinion.  just lots of little magnets that go on cars.

I agree 100%.  It's a neat little slogan that let's us ignore what the troops are doing and allows us to think we're helping while we turn the other way.  If we supported the troops, there'd be no Walter Reed, no vet homeless problem, no stoploss.  We don't support the troops.  We support intellectual shortcircuits.

Spot f-ing on.

Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: vercingetorix on January 05, 2008, 07:10:23 AM
Would people have been so upset about Walter Reed if they knew that 45% of the soldiers in question were rapists?  65%? 

Do people get upset about the quality of health care in prison?  They should.  Is there a difference?  Why do we see one?

actually, i think the number of rapists at Walter Reed is around 80%.  just get your facts right next time.  and prisoners are more worthy of care than wounded veterans.  sound points all around.
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: luke on January 05, 2008, 07:22:15 AM
http://press.princeton.edu/chapters/i7243.html

"The word "racism" first came into common usage in the 1930s when a new word was required to describe the theories on which the Nazis based their persecution of the Jews. As is the case with many of the terms historians use, the phenomenon existed before the coinage of the word that we use to describe it. But our understanding of what beliefs and behaviors are to be considered "racist" has been unstable. Somewhere between the view that racism is a peculiar modern idea without much historical precedent and the notion that it is simply a manifestation of the ancient phenomenon of tribalism or xenophobia may lie a working definition that covers more than scientific or biological racism but less than the kind of group prejudice based on culture, religion, or simply a sense of family or kinship.2

It is when differences that might otherwise be considered ethnocultural are regarded as innate, indelible, and unchangeable that a racist attitude or ideology can be said to exist. It finds its clearest expression when the kind of ethnic differences that are firmly rooted in language, customs, and kinship are overridden in the name of an imagined collectivity based on pigmentation, as in white supremacy, or on a linguistically based myth of remote descent from a superior race, as in Aryanism. But racism as I conceive it is not merely an attitude or set of beliefs; it also expresses itself in the practices, institutions, and structures that a sense of deep difference justifies or validates. Racism, therefore, is more than theorizing about human differences or thinking badly of a group over which one has no control. It either directly sustains or proposes to establish a racial order, a permanent group hierarchy that is believed to reflect the laws of nature or the decrees of God. Racism in this sense is neither a given of human social existence, a universal "consciousness of kind," nor simply a modern theory that biology determines history and culture. Like the modern scientific racism that is one expression of it, it has a historical trajectory and is mainly, if not exclusively, a product of the West. But it originated in at least a prototypical form in the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries rather than in the eighteenth or nineteenth (as is sometimes maintained) and was originally articulated in the idioms of religion more than in those of natural science.

Racism is therefore not merely "xenophobia"--a term invented by the ancient Greeks to describe a reflexive feeling of hostility to the stranger or Other. Xenophobia may be a starting point upon which racism can be constructed, but it is not the thing itself. For an understanding of the emergence of Western racism in the late Middle Ages and early modern period, a clear distinction between racism and religious intolerance is crucial. The religious bigot condemns and persecutes others for what they believe, not for what they intrinsically are. I would not therefore consider the sincere missionary, who may despise the beliefs and habits of the object of his ministrations, to be a racist. If a heathen can be redeemed through baptism, or if an ethnic stranger can be assimilated into the tribe or the culture in such a way that his or her origins cease to matter in any significant way, we are in the presence of an attitude that often creates conflict and misery, but not one that should be labeled racist. It might be useful to have another term, such as "culturalism," to describe an inability or unwillingness to tolerate cultural differences, but if assimilation were genuinely on offer, I would withhold the "R" word. Even if a group--for example, Muslims in the Ottoman Empire or Christians in early medieval Europe--is privileged in the eyes of the secular and religious authorities, racism is not operative if members of stigmatized groups can voluntarily change their identities and advance to positions of prominence and prestige within the dominant group. Examples would include the medieval bishops who had converted from Judaism and the Ottoman generals who had been born Christian. (Of course mobility may also be impeded by barriers of "caste" or "estate" that differentiate on a basis other than membership in a collectivity that thinks of itself, or is thought of by others, to constitute a distinctive "people," or "ethnos.")

Admittedly, however, there is a substantial gray area between racism and "culturalism." One has to distinguish among differing conceptions of culture. If we think of culture as historically constructed, fluid, variable in time and space, and adaptable to changing circumstances, it is a concept antithetical to that of race. But culture can be reified and essentialized to the point where it becomes the functional equivalent of race. Peoples or ethnic groups can be endowed with national souls or Volksgeister, which, rather than being inherited by any observable biological or genetic process, are passed on from generation to generation by some mysterious or even supernatural means, a kind of recurring gift from God. The long-standing European belief that children had the same "blood" as their parents was more metaphor and myth than empirical science, but it sanctioned a kind of genealogical determinism that could turn racial when applied to entire ethnic groups.3

Deterministic cultural particularism can do the work of biological racism quite effectively, as we shall see in more detail in later discussions of völkisch nationalism in Germany and South Africa. Contemporary British sociologists have identified and analyzed what they call "the new cultural racism." John Solomos and Les Back argue, for example, that race is now "coded as culture," that "the central feature of these processes is that the qualities of social groups are fixed, made natural, confined within a pseudo-biologically defined culturalism." Racism is therefore "a scavenger ideology, which gains its power from its ability to pick out and utilize ideas and values from other sets of ideas and beliefs in specific socio-historical contexts." But there are also "strong continuities in the articulation of the images of the 'other,' as well as in the images which are evident in the ways in which racist movements define the boundaries of 'race' and 'nation.'"4 These continuities suggest to me that there is a general history of racism, as well as a history of particular racisms, but knowledge of specific contexts is necessary to an understanding of the varying forms and functions of the generic phenomenon with which we are concerned.

My theory or conception of racism, therefore, has two components: difference and power. It originates from a mind-set that regards "them" as different from "us" in ways that are permanent and unbridgeable. This sense of difference provides a motive or rationale for using our power advantage to treat the ethnoracial Other in ways that we would regard as cruel or unjust if applied to members of our own group. The possible consequences of this nexus of attitude and action range from unofficial but pervasive social discrimination at one end of the spectrum to genocide at the other, with government-sanctioned segregation, colonial subjugation, exclusion, forced deportation (or "ethnic cleansing"), and enslavement among the other variations on the theme. In all manifestations of racism from the mildest to the most severe, what is being denied is the possibility that the racializers and the racialized can coexist in the same society, except perhaps on the basis of domination and subordination. Also rejected is any notion that individuals can obliterate ethnoracial difference by changing their identities.

Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: luke on January 05, 2008, 07:23:10 AM
 The French sociologist Pierre-André Taguieff has distinguished between two distinctive varieties or "logics" of racism--"le racisme d'exploitation" and "le racisme d'ex-termination."5 One might also call the two possibilities the racism of inclusion and the racism of exclusion. Both are racist because the inclusionary variant permits incorporation only on the basis of a rigid hierarchy justified by a belief in permanent, unbridgeable differences between the associated groups, while the exclusionary type goes further and finds no way at all that the groups can coexist in the same society. The former would obviously apply most readily to white supremacy and the latter to antisemitism. But historical reality is too messy to enable us to use these dichotomies consistently in a group-specific way. For long periods in European history, Jews were tolerated so long as they stayed in "their place" (the ghetto), whereas African Americans migrating to the northern states during the era of slavery and afterward often found themselves exposed to what the psychologist Joel Kovel has called "aversive racism" to distinguish it from the "dominative" variety that he finds ascendant in the South.6 Antebellum "black laws" forbidding the immigration of free African Americans into several Midwestern states were conspicuous examples of aversive racism, as were the various schemes for colonizing blacks outside of the United States. Depending on the circumstances of the dominant group, and what uses, if any, it has for the subalterns, the logic of racism can shift from inclusionary to exclusionary and vice versa.

My conception may at first seem too broad to have the historical specificity that I promised to give it. It is possible that relations among peoples before the late Middle Ages were sometimes characterized by the kind of hostility and exclusiveness that betokens racism. But it was more common, if not universal, to assimilate strangers into the tribe or nation, if they were willing to be so incorporated. There might be non-Western forms of prejudice and ethnocentrism that would be hard to exclude under the terms of my definition. The traditional belief of the Japanese that only people of their own stock can truly understand and appreciate their culture, with the resulting discrimination against Japanese-born Koreans, might be an example.7 Another might be the feudal-type hegemony exercised by the ethnically distinct Tutsi herdsmen over the Hutu agriculturalists in Rwanda and Burundi before colonization.8 But I will concentrate on racism in Europe and its colonial extensions since the fifteenth century for several reasons. First, even if it has existed elsewhere in rudimentary form, the virus of racism did not infect Europe itself prior to the period between the late medieval and early modern periods. Hence we can study its emergence in a time and place for which we have a substantial historical record. Second, the varieties of racism that developed in the West had greater impact on world history than any functional equivalent that we might detect in another era or part of the world. Third, the logic of racism was fully worked out, elaborately implemented, and carried to its ultimate extremes in the West, while at the same time being identified, condemned, and resisted from within the same cultural tradition.

What makes Western racism so autonomous and conspicuous in world history has been that it developed in a context that presumed human equality of some kind. First came the doctrine that the Crucifixion offered grace to all willing to receive it and made all Christian believers equal before God. Later came the more revolutionary concept that all "men" are born free and equal and entitled to equal rights in society and government. If a culture holds a premise of spiritual and temporal inequality, if a hierarchy exists that is unquestioned even by its lower-ranking members, as in the Indian caste system before the modern era, there is no incentive to deny the full humanity of underlings in order to treat them as impure or unworthy. If equality is the norm in the spiritual or temporal realms (or in both at the same time), and there are groups of people within the society who are so despised or disparaged that the upholders of the norms feel compelled to make them exceptions to the promise or realization of equality, they can be denied the prospect of equal status only if they allegedly possess some extraordinary deficiency that makes them less than fully human. It is uniquely in the West that we find the dialectical interaction between a premise of equality and an intense prejudice toward certain groups that would seem to be a precondition for the full flowering of racism as an ideology or worldview.
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: UnbiasedObserver on January 05, 2008, 08:24:36 AM
now you're just trying to get people fired up.

wait, what do i mean now?  ???

It won't work.  Everybody supports the troops, remember?  Prostrate yourself before the troops people, pay your fealty.  I like to ask people what percentage of the troops have to be rapists before they stop supporting them.  50%?  65%?  What percentage of American troops raped Vietnamese women?  Do percentages matter, or should it be aggregated?  What role does complicity play?  Is it worse if 1/2 of all American servicemen are rapists or if there is 1 rape for every 2 soldiers.

But @#!* me, we support the troops.  This line of thinking must stop.  When was the last time we had a discusssion about this [transmission terminated]

there's actually shockingly little support for the troops, in my opinion.  just lots of little magnets that go on cars.

Amen.

I found it ironic that people considered it unpatriotic of me (and unsympathetic to the troops) to oppose the war when it began, yet my rationale was simple: there was no conclusive evidence to send our troops into a place where they would die. 

Yet I was the one not supporting my troops according to many people.

Go figure. 
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: The Knight on February 06, 2008, 01:06:54 PM
i think the most xenophobic, racist people on the planet are the Japanese. they beat whitey every which way, heck they also hate whitey.

qft
Title: Re: Why I support Affirmative Action..
Post by: kono on June 25, 2008, 08:27:23 AM
Stop cross-posting.

post edited by EC