Law School Discussion

Applying to Law School => Law School Admissions => Topic started by: out west on June 03, 2007, 09:32:37 AM

Title: t-14
Post by: out west on June 03, 2007, 09:32:37 AM
I've noticed that many ppl refer to the "t-14."  Why 14?  Why not 15?  I'm not being smart.  I'm just curious as to why 14.  Are those 14 seen as decidedly better than 15-30?

If so, with a 3.1 and nothing remarkable from a TTT univ., what do I need on LSAT to have realistic shot?
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on June 03, 2007, 09:37:10 AM
I've noticed that many ppl refer to the "t-14."  Why 14?  Why not 15?  I'm not being smart.  I'm just curious as to why 14.  Are those 14 seen as decidedly better than 15-30?

If so, with a 3.1 and nothing remarkable from a TTT univ., what do I need on LSAT to have realistic shot?

t14 = schools that have been in the top14 since the first rankings and all have been in the top 10 at least once.

get a 170+
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Ilovecheese on June 03, 2007, 10:13:46 AM
What Jem said, and 170+ gives you a good chance at T-14. However, mid and high 160's get into T-14's also, and if you are a URM 165+ puts you in good position.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: bamf on June 03, 2007, 10:13:56 AM
has cornell ever been top 10?
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: bamf on June 03, 2007, 10:19:42 AM
I've noticed that many ppl refer to the "t-14."  Why 14?  Why not 15?  I'm not being smart.  I'm just curious as to why 14.  Are those 14 seen as decidedly better than 15-30?

If so, with a 3.1 and nothing remarkable from a TTT univ., what do I need on LSAT to have realistic shot?

I think the answer to this is yes, but a very nuanced yes.  Would someone call you crazy for taking UT over Columbia or Chicago? Yes.  Will they do the same for taking UT over Cornell, Georgetown or Northwestern?  Probably not as much.

Personally I like to view it in tiers:
H, Y, S
C,C,N
Penn, Boalt, Virgina, Duke, Michigan
NW, GULC, Cornell
UCLA, UT, Vandy and USC
All the rest of 19-30 (ish ... plus UNC)
Everyone else.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: out west on June 03, 2007, 10:47:56 AM
Thanks.  I realize a 170+ is no small feat but I think I can do it.  I'm taking the sep. exam.  I plan to have everything in at my desired law schools(probably every school in the top 14) by sep and then the only thing that we'll have to wait on is LSAT.

I'll register for LSDAS next week.  Is that a pretty simple process?  Is it worth it to jut use the LSDAS service in order to apply to each school?  I've heard that it's much more convenient.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: bamf on June 03, 2007, 11:16:46 AM
Thanks.  I realize a 170+ is no small feat but I think I can do it.  I'm taking the sep. exam.  I plan to have everything in at my desired law schools(probably every school in the top 14) by sep and then the only thing that we'll have to wait on is LSAT.

I'll register for LSDAS next week.  Is that a pretty simple process?  Is it worth it to jut use the LSDAS service in order to apply to each school?  I've heard that it's much more convenient.

you have to register with LSDAs, no two ways around it.  It is the only way you can get your LSAT sent out.  But yeah, applying online is much easier (many schools require it).
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Ilovecheese on June 03, 2007, 11:18:20 AM
Thanks.  I realize a 170+ is no small feat but I think I can do it.  I'm taking the sep. exam.  I plan to have everything in at my desired law schools(probably every school in the top 14) by sep and then the only thing that we'll have to wait on is LSAT.

I'll register for LSDAS next week.  Is that a pretty simple process?  Is it worth it to jut use the LSDAS service in order to apply to each school?  I've heard that it's much more convenient.

LSDAS is much more convenient, it allows you to apply to schools and do paperwork all through one entity instead of working with each school separately.

Although LSAT is the most important part in admissions you should also start working on your personal statement and think of professors who will write you letters of recommendation.
If you have received all of your spring semester grades I suggest you send in the transcript now.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: out west on June 03, 2007, 11:24:14 AM
Thanks for the helpful info.

I think I can have 2 rec(i'm only doing 2.   Should I do more?) in by mid-August.  I'll have my school send my transcripts sometime next week.  How long does it take LSAC to process transcripts?  Can I view what they come up with  w/regards to "LSDAS GPA" and all of that?
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on June 03, 2007, 11:30:17 AM
Thanks for the helpful info.

I think I can have 2 rec(i'm only doing 2.   Should I do more?) in by mid-August.  I'll have my school send my transcripts sometime next week.  How long does it take LSAC to process transcripts?  Can I view what they come up with  w/regards to "LSDAS GPA" and all of that?

get 3
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: StudentUVA on June 03, 2007, 12:26:59 PM
Yea with a 3.1 you'll need 173+ to crack t-14.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: ě on June 03, 2007, 12:32:12 PM
With a 3.1 you need to crack their 75th for LSAT. Saying 173+ is a bit too harsh for schools like Cornell where their 75th is 168.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Ilovecheese on June 03, 2007, 12:58:11 PM
OP, what's your major? some majors get a small gpa boost.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: IF on June 03, 2007, 01:16:30 PM
A lot of ppl will disagree with this statement, but if you've got solid "soft-factors" (beyond URM) the numbers can be relaxed a little.  But only a little, and this doesn't apply to all T-14 schools.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Ilovecheese on June 03, 2007, 01:50:45 PM
A lot of ppl will disagree with this statement, but if you've got solid "soft-factors" (beyond URM) the numbers can be relaxed a little.  But only a little, and this doesn't apply to all T-14 schools.

titcr.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: ě on June 03, 2007, 03:39:03 PM
LSAT heavily outweighs UGPA. Even at the schools considered GPA whores it's still not rated nearly as important as the LSAT is.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: bamf on June 03, 2007, 04:18:43 PM
Yea with a 3.1 you'll need 173+ to crack t-14.

In most cases, this is not credited.

I have multiple T14 acceptances with a 171 and a GPA below 3.0. There are numerous others in my same boat, some of whom are in at T14s with sizable scholarship offers. So it can be done, as long as the other parts of your application look right.

I think a well prepared 3.15/172 will do extremely well among the T7-14, though there may be some waiting involved into May and June. They key is applying early and not giving the adcomms ANY additional excuses (beyond your GPA) to ding you.



you have multiple T14 acceptances all of which were off WL, correct?
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: ě on June 03, 2007, 04:22:54 PM
Even so, 3.1 and 173+ is noticably above 'below 3.0' and 171.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: OCLawGirl on June 03, 2007, 06:52:43 PM
Have in mind after LSAC gets a hold of your GPA, it may go down.  So your 3.1 may turn out to be 2.9.  Hopefully, it will stay the same.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Schruted on June 03, 2007, 07:42:21 PM
I had no idea what t-14 meant before someone pointed me to this site. I guess after a year of reading this stuff, it's time to help the next cycle...

Here's an internet-consensus breakdown of law schools (validity is arguable):

1. Yale


(3 lines)
2. Harvard/Stanford



(4 lines)
3. Chicago/Columbia/NYU

(2 lines)
4. Berkeley/Michigan/Penn/Virginia
(1 line)
5. Cornell/Duke/Georgetown/Northwestern









(10 lines)
6. The schools right below GULC (UCLA, Texas, WashU, Fordham, GW, Vandy, USC, Minnesota, off the top of my head)

(2 lines)
7. Everyone else




(5 lines)
8. Cooley

You can find more brutal and jaded opinions at xoxohth.com.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Hank Rearden on June 03, 2007, 11:52:19 PM
I had no idea what t-14 meant before someone pointed me to this site. I guess after a year of reading this stuff, it's time to help the next cycle...

Here's an internet-consensus breakdown of law schools (validity is arguable):

1. Yale


(3 lines)
2. Harvard/Stanford



(4 lines)
3. Chicago/Columbia
4. NYU






(7 lines)
5. Berkeley/Michigan/Penn/Virginia
(1 line)
6. Cornell/Duke/Georgetown/Northwestern









(10 lines)
7. The schools right below GULC (UCLA, Texas, WashU, Fordham, GW, Vandy, USC, Minnesota, off the top of my head)

(2 lines)
8. Everyone else




(5 lines)
9. Cooley

You can find more brutal and jaded opinions at xoxohth.com.

Fixed.   :)
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: ě on June 04, 2007, 04:58:13 AM
Fixed.   :)
USNWR disagrees ;) So do I actually, but not for trolling purposes. NYU and CLS are about as dead even as they come, if you want to move one of the CCN's away from the two others, you have to move Chicago.

Either way, I don't really buy the three lines between Yale and Harvard/Stanford either. You might be right in splitting up the YHS threesome, but there's certainly not significant difference between them.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Ilovecheese on June 04, 2007, 08:41:10 AM
Fixed.   :)
USNWR disagrees ;) So do I actually, but not for trolling purposes. NYU and CLS are about as dead even as they come, if you want to move one of the CCN's away from the two others, you have to move Chicago.

Either way, I don't really buy the three lines between Yale and Harvard/Stanford either. You might be right in splitting up the YHS threesome, but there's certainly not significant difference between them.

NYU is a great school, but I really do not think it's on the level of Columbia, maybe Chicago, but not Columbia. The school is so high up there mainly because it is in NYC and because it has one of the largest student spending programs.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: prelaw200 on June 04, 2007, 08:51:05 AM
has cornell ever been top 10?

yep, same # of times as NU, more than GULC.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on June 04, 2007, 08:58:25 AM
Fixed.   :)
USNWR disagrees ;) So do I actually, but not for trolling purposes. NYU and CLS are about as dead even as they come, if you want to move one of the CCN's away from the two others, you have to move Chicago.

Either way, I don't really buy the three lines between Yale and Harvard/Stanford either. You might be right in splitting up the YHS threesome, but there's certainly not significant difference between them.

NYU is a great school, but I really do not think it's on the level of Columbia, maybe Chicago, but not Columbia. The school is so high up there mainly because it is in NYC and because it has one of the largest student spending programs.

NYU is not on the level of Chi either imo
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: awesomepossum on June 04, 2007, 09:12:05 AM
How do people know what law schools are beter or worse by a few positions?  I think it would be hard to tell unless you've been working in law or at least have attended one of these schools.  For example, "NYU better than Columbia" or vice versa or something like that seems to have no value.  Unless you're taking it from a data standpoint (collated by USNWR or Cooley rankings or otherwise), how can you distinguish these things?  People don't seem to be backing up what they say with anything which makes most of it worthless in my opinion.  Why not at least state something you experienced at ASW?

For example, I would understand if somebody said "Princeton Law is better than Brown Law because hiring at orange growers is better at Princeton"  But to just say one is better than the other without having anything to back it up and with no experience seems strange to me. 

Oh...and Columbia undergrad kicks NYU undergrad ass.  That's a fact.   :P

Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on June 04, 2007, 09:17:01 AM
How do people know what law schools are beter or worse by a few positions?  I think it would be hard to tell unless you've been working in law or at least have attended one of these schools.  For example, "NYU better than Columbia" or vice versa or something like that seems to have no value.  Unless you're taking it from a data standpoint (collated by USNWR or Cooley rankings or otherwise), how can you distinguish these things?  People don't seem to be backing up what they say with anything which makes most of it worthless in my opinion.  Why not at least state something you experienced at ASW?

For example, I would understand if somebody said "Princeton Law is better than Brown Law because hiring at orange growers is better at Princeton"  But to just say one is better than the other without having anything to back it up and with no experience seems strange to me. 

Oh...and Columbia undergrad kicks NYU undergrad ass.  That's a fact.   :P



the bolded
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: 1LCorvo on June 04, 2007, 09:19:23 AM
Well, there are tangible factors that distinguishes certain schools from one another. For instance, it is a fact that NYU/CLS places more students in NYC than Duke/Penn/Uva.

It would be better if it illustrated the students that didn't make it to NYC (or any other regions)from t14s. That gives a more comprehensive answer to the employment questions. But that is neither here nor there.

It really depends on what factors you value most.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Jolie Was Here on June 04, 2007, 09:24:44 AM
Well, there are tangible factors that distinguishes certain schools from one another. For instance, it is a fact that NYU/CLS places more students in NYC than Duke/Penn/Uva.

It would be better if it illustrated the students that didn't make it to NYC (or any other regions)from t14s. That gives a more comprehensive answer to the employment questions. But that is neither here nor there.

It really depends on what factors you value most.

Not to mention that this may reflect student self-selection rather than (or in addition to) placement limitations. 
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: awesomepossum on June 04, 2007, 09:24:56 AM
I'm talking more about comparing NYU to Columbia or Chicago to NYU or something like that.  Some people do state rationales, but some people are just throwing some opinions out with no real reason behind it.

It doesn't matter really.  Just wanted to find out where everybody's expertise was coming from.

Title: Re: t-14
Post by: 1LCorvo on June 04, 2007, 09:26:57 AM
How do people know what law schools are beter or worse by a few positions?  I think it would be hard to tell unless you've been working in law or at least have attended one of these schools.  For example, "NYU better than Columbia" or vice versa or something like that seems to have no value.  Unless you're taking it from a data standpoint (collated by USNWR or Cooley rankings or otherwise), how can you distinguish these things?  People don't seem to be backing up what they say with anything which makes most of it worthless in my opinion.  Why not at least state something you experienced at ASW?

For example, I would understand if somebody said "Princeton Law is better than Brown Law because hiring at orange growers is better at Princeton"  But to just say one is better than the other without having anything to back it up and with no experience seems strange to me. 

Oh...and Columbia undergrad kicks NYU undergrad ass.  That's a fact.   :P



the bolded

Data alone doesn't show whether a school is better than another. How we interpret it plays a significant role. For instance, Kobe Bryant averaged more points than LeBron James last season. Does that mean Kobe is a better offensive player (or basketball player) than Lebron James? I would say no; some would say yes. Kobe takes more shots, and Lebron passes more. Some people might argue that the more points you score, the better the player you are. Whereas, I think efficiency matters most. Lebron is a much more efficient ball player.

The point being that stats can only say so much. Our interpretation of them matters a lot. But I do agree that stats are important in some regard. I think we get to wrapped up in numbers...but this is just an unsubstantiated opinion.   
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: awesomepossum on June 04, 2007, 09:27:01 AM
Oh, Jolie, you get a pass since you're ACTUALLY IN LAW SCHOOL.

 ;D
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: prelaw200 on June 04, 2007, 09:30:36 AM
I'm talking more about comparing NYU to Columbia or Chicago to NYU or something like that.  Some people do state rationales, but some people are just throwing some opinions out with no real reason behind it.

It doesn't matter really.  Just wanted to find out where everybody's expertise was coming from.



For a while the gap between NYU and Columbia was significant enough to say that Columbia was clearly the better school.  However it has narrowed over the past 20 years to the point where there is little distinction between the two in terms of prestige.  FWIW the NYU summers at the V10 firm I work for far outnumber the Columbia summers this year.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: 1LCorvo on June 04, 2007, 09:30:59 AM
This is such a silly thread-  we're all going to "elite" schools.  We'll get some swell jobs and be fine.  Hakuna Matata.

I second that...
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: awesomepossum on June 04, 2007, 09:36:44 AM
This is such a silly thread-  we're all going to "elite" schools.  We'll get some swell jobs and be fine.  Hakuna Matata.

Hakuna Matata.... it means no worries, for the rest of your days.....

doesn't seem to apply to law school....or a career in law for that matter....

 :'(
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: bamf on June 04, 2007, 09:40:11 AM
This is such a silly thread-  we're all going to "elite" schools.  We'll get some swell jobs and be fine.  Hakuna Matata.

Hakuna Matata.... it means no worries, for the rest of your days.....

doesn't seem to apply to law school....or a career in law for that matter....

 :'(

glad to see you're optimistic

---

recently Leiter took a shot at NYU's faculty quality as compared to the other T6s ... just adding to the pointless conversation.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: ě on June 04, 2007, 09:40:17 AM
NYU is not on the level of Chi either imo

Based on anything solid? My impression would be CLS>NYU>CHI, although so marginally it makes no sense separating them. Yes, NYU gets a bonus for being in NYC, but that doesn't mean it isn't relevant, you go to school to get a job, so location is certainly a factor in judging schools.

Title: Re: t-14
Post by: 1LCorvo on June 04, 2007, 09:45:55 AM
NYU is not on the level of Chi either imo

Based on anything solid? My impression would be CLS>NYU>CHI, although so marginally it makes no sense separating them. Yes, NYU gets a bonus for being in NYC, but that doesn't mean it isn't relevant, you go to school to get a job, so location is certainly a factor in judging schools.



Why would you impression be CLS>NYU>CHI...curious?
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: ě on June 04, 2007, 09:51:29 AM
Big Law employment really. Which I admit is somewhat of a limited base, but that's how it is :)
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on June 04, 2007, 10:13:26 AM
How do people know what law schools are beter or worse by a few positions?  I think it would be hard to tell unless you've been working in law or at least have attended one of these schools.  For example, "NYU better than Columbia" or vice versa or something like that seems to have no value.  Unless you're taking it from a data standpoint (collated by USNWR or Cooley rankings or otherwise), how can you distinguish these things?  People don't seem to be backing up what they say with anything which makes most of it worthless in my opinion.  Why not at least state something you experienced at ASW?

For example, I would understand if somebody said "Princeton Law is better than Brown Law because hiring at orange growers is better at Princeton"  But to just say one is better than the other without having anything to back it up and with no experience seems strange to me. 

Oh...and Columbia undergrad kicks NYU undergrad ass.  That's a fact.   :P



the bolded

Data alone doesn't show whether a school is better than another. How we interpret it plays a significant role. For instance, Kobe Bryant averaged more points than LeBron James last season. Does that mean Kobe is a better offensive player (or basketball player) than Lebron James? I would say no; some would say yes. Kobe takes more shots, and Lebron passes more. Some people might argue that the more points you score, the better the player you are. Whereas, I think efficiency matters most. Lebron is a much more efficient ball player.

The point being that stats can only say so much. Our interpretation of them matters a lot. But I do agree that stats are important in some regard. I think we get to wrapped up in numbers...but this is just an unsubstantiated opinion.   

wasn't talking about numbers
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on June 04, 2007, 10:16:23 AM
Big Law employment really. Which I admit is somewhat of a limited base, but that's how it is :)

chi does just as well, and even *slighty* better in NY than CLS/NYU simply bc of the small # of their class.  (in much the same way CLS will do *slighty* better in Chi than Chicago), so I don't think this is relevant to separating NYU/Chicago...but that's jmo  :)
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: ě on June 04, 2007, 10:23:40 AM
Big Law employment really. Which I admit is somewhat of a limited base, but that's how it is :)

chi does just as well, and even *slighty* better in NY than CLS/NYU simply bc of the small # of their class.  (in much the same way CLS will do *slighty* better in Chi than Chicago), so I don't think this is relevant to separating NYU/Chicago...but that's jmo  :)

Where do you get it from that Chi does better than CLS and NYU in NY?
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on June 04, 2007, 10:47:18 AM
Big Law employment really. Which I admit is somewhat of a limited base, but that's how it is :)

chi does just as well, and even *slighty* better in NY than CLS/NYU simply bc of the small # of their class.  (in much the same way CLS will do *slighty* better in Chi than Chicago), so I don't think this is relevant to separating NYU/Chicago...but that's jmo  :)

Where do you get it from that Chi does better than CLS and NYU in NY?

xoxo (which regardless of the drama, is very good for substantative info) and their studies, as well as concrete info from MTG...he'd definiteoy be one to answer this q.

and by *better*  i mean slighty...not enough to make one choose one school over another
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: ě on June 04, 2007, 10:49:47 AM
Yeah, I certainly understand we're talking margins here, but Chicago doing better than Columbia in NY and Columbia doing better than Chicago in Chicago, I have a very hard time believing that. But I just can't be arsed to actually research it :p
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on June 04, 2007, 11:02:40 AM
Yeah, I certainly understand we're talking margins here, but Chicago doing better than Columbia in NY and Columbia doing better than Chicago in Chicago, I have a very hard time believing that. But I just can't be arsed to actually research it :p

when you think about it tho, it does make sense--the vast majority of ppl that go to CLS and NYU want to stay in NY...the same cannot be said for Chicago--thus simply by virtue of their smaller class size and the smaller amount of ppl going there they are a hot commodity (bc you know firms like to show off their roster with prestigous school names :D)

LOL and do your research  ;)
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Jolie Was Here on June 04, 2007, 11:09:25 AM
This also depends on how you're defining "better", imo.  Does "better" mean that a firm will go deeper into a class at School A vs. School B?  Or does it mean a firm will take more students overall from School A vs. School B? 

In any event, you then have to consider the role that different schools' curves will play (for example, employers know - roughly - which of the top schools have lower curves and may be willing to reach deeper into those classes based on GPA.)  You have to consider the effects of disparate class sizes and geographical biases. 

My point is that there's a lot that goes into this calculation.  At some point you're sort of splitting hairs to try and draw broad distinctions between peer schools. 
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on June 04, 2007, 11:13:16 AM
This also depends on how you're defining "better", imo.  Does "better" mean that a firm will go deeper into a class at School A vs. School B?  Or does it mean a firm will take more students overall from School A vs. School B? 

In any event, you then have to consider the role that different schools' curves will play (for example, employers know - roughly - which of the top schools have lower curves and may be willing to reach deeper into those classes based on GPA.)  You have to consider the effects of disparate class sizes and geographical biases. 

My point is that there's a lot that goes into this calculation. At some point you're sort of splitting hairs to try and draw broad distinctions between peer schools. 

true
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on June 04, 2007, 11:19:56 AM
This also depends on how you're defining "better", imo.  Does "better" mean that a firm will go deeper into a class at School A vs. School B?  Or does it mean a firm will take more students overall from School A vs. School B? 

In any event, you then have to consider the role that different schools' curves will play (for example, employers know - roughly - which of the top schools have lower curves and may be willing to reach deeper into those classes based on GPA.)  You have to consider the effects of disparate class sizes and geographical biases. 

My point is that there's a lot that goes into this calculation.  At some point you're sort of splitting hairs to try and draw broad distinctions between peer schools. 

But you agree that Columbia is much better than Chicago, right?

Even I wouldn't agree that CLS is much better than Chi...I had a very hard time choosing btwn the two.  I will say that I think that CLS is *slighty* better  ;) ;)
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Jolie Was Here on June 04, 2007, 11:20:24 AM
This also depends on how you're defining "better", imo.  Does "better" mean that a firm will go deeper into a class at School A vs. School B?  Or does it mean a firm will take more students overall from School A vs. School B? 

In any event, you then have to consider the role that different schools' curves will play (for example, employers know - roughly - which of the top schools have lower curves and may be willing to reach deeper into those classes based on GPA.)  You have to consider the effects of disparate class sizes and geographical biases. 

My point is that there's a lot that goes into this calculation.  At some point you're sort of splitting hairs to try and draw broad distinctions between peer schools. 

But you agree that Columbia is much better than Chicago, right?

In the sense that going there wouldn't make me want to commit seppuku, sure. :P
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on June 04, 2007, 11:29:47 AM
has cornell ever been top 10?

in 99, 00, and 03
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: ě on June 04, 2007, 12:12:53 PM
LOL and do your research  ;)

Meh, it really makes no difference, as you say, it's absolute minor differences anyway. And I guess people choosing between the three schools will do it for other reasons than this, since the schools in themselves are quite different of nature.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: 1LCorvo on June 04, 2007, 01:13:08 PM
This also depends on how you're defining "better", imo.  Does "better" mean that a firm will go deeper into a class at School A vs. School B?  Or does it mean a firm will take more students overall from School A vs. School B? 

In any event, you then have to consider the role that different schools' curves will play (for example, employers know - roughly - which of the top schools have lower curves and may be willing to reach deeper into those classes based on GPA.)  You have to consider the effects of disparate class sizes and geographical biases. 

My point is that there's a lot that goes into this calculation.  At some point you're sort of splitting hairs to try and draw broad distinctions between peer schools. 

But you agree that Columbia is much better than Chicago, right?

Even I wouldn't agree that CLS is much better than Chi...I had a very hard time choosing btwn the two.  I will say that I think that CLS is *slighty* better  ;) ;)

Much better? Uhhh...I'm not even sure if it is slightly better. It really depends on how you define better. It is sort of like we're going in circles here. Or, no one has provided an adequate definition of "better".

Jem, if you are not talking about the numbers, then what are you referring to?
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Jolie Was Here on June 04, 2007, 01:16:12 PM
Bear in mind that it was my man cal who made the "much better" statement. :D 

*checks sarcasm meter*
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: awesomepossum on June 04, 2007, 01:20:23 PM
This reminds me of "my dad can beat up your dad" arguments in kindergarden.

I can't wait till we're arguing about the tier one nursing homes.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: 1LCorvo on June 04, 2007, 01:24:37 PM
This reminds me of "my dad can beat up your dad" arguments in kindergarden.

I can't wait till we're arguing about the tier one nursing homes.

Lol. I know...These arguments are trivial.
People are obsessed with feeling better than others. It's a gift and a curse.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Jolie Was Here on June 04, 2007, 01:25:35 PM
This reminds me of "my dad can beat up your dad" arguments in kindergarden.

I can't wait till we're arguing about the tier one nursing homes.

One of my colleagues who recently graduated used to joke about this.  She swore that if someone ranked the bathrooms on campus, you'd see a line of law students waiting to use the #1 toilet.  
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Jolie Was Here on June 04, 2007, 01:26:01 PM
Bear in mind that it was my man cal who made the "much better" statement. :D 

*checks sarcasm meter*

titcr...my tongue was so far in my cheek it was out of my mouth and pleasuring my favorite michigan 2L.

Ooh, was that you?!
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: 1LCorvo on June 04, 2007, 01:27:55 PM
This reminds me of "my dad can beat up your dad" arguments in kindergarden.

I can't wait till we're arguing about the tier one nursing homes.

One of my colleagues who recently graduated used to joke about this.  She swore that if someone ranked the bathrooms on campus, you'd see a line of law students waiting to use the #1 toilet. 

Someone should really try that...I would love to see how people respond.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: awesomepossum on June 04, 2007, 01:29:12 PM
This reminds me of "my dad can beat up your dad" arguments in kindergarden.

I can't wait till we're arguing about the tier one nursing homes.

One of my colleagues who recently graduated used to joke about this.  She swore that if someone ranked the bathrooms on campus, you'd see a line of law students waiting to use the #1 toilet.  

Well that would actually work as a negative feedback mechanism.

Anybody who knows anything about public toilets knows that the quality of a toilet is inversely proportional to it's popularity.

 ;D
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Amy Winehouse on June 04, 2007, 01:59:47 PM
The higher up you go on the LS food chain the easier it is to get a biglaw job.
The lower you go, the more grades and school location count.
Because half of the USN rankings are entirely subjective (Judge/lawyer, what do YOU think about schools XYZ?) it is better to go to one that is perceived to be of higher quality than one that is perceived to be of lower quality.

Does it really matter what the differences are between CLS v. NYU v. Chicago? 

I didn't even apply to NYU because if I'm moving to NYC, I'm going to a Ivy dammit.  And let's face it: many (but not all) of the perceived differences between the *top* schools are ideas propagated by the schools and their alums in order to create chasms out of minute differences between programs.  It's like shopping for jeans.  I picked CLS because it had a fun design on the  back pockets while someone else picked Chicago because it's bootleg.  Very similar with small cosmetic differences.   

Is the ranking system accurate-ish?  Maybe
Is it helpful?  Yes

Does everyone have to play the game regardless simply because that's how it is played? 

Yes.

Fin.

</rant>
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Captain on June 04, 2007, 02:02:56 PM
This is such a silly thread-  we're all going to "elite" schools.  We'll get some swell jobs and be fine.  Hakuna Matata.

The Captain is engorged with jealousy.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: 1LCorvo on June 04, 2007, 02:08:25 PM
This reminds me of "my dad can beat up your dad" arguments in kindergarden.

I can't wait till we're arguing about the tier one nursing homes.

One of my colleagues who recently graduated used to joke about this.  She swore that if someone ranked the bathrooms on campus, you'd see a line of law students waiting to use the #1 toilet. 

They should totally do that just to have literal TTTs

180. I like the direction this thread has taken. By like token, I offer the following:

Dr. Pepper

(2 lines)
Mr. Pibb/Cherry Coke

(3 lines)
Coke/Diet Dr. Pepper/Dr. Brown's

(1 line)
Fresca

(8,647,591,444 lines)
Pepsi

Coke isn't that much better than Pepsi. and Mr. Pibb and Red Vines equal crazy delicious...
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: jimfoolery on June 04, 2007, 02:12:43 PM
This reminds me of "my dad can beat up your dad" arguments in kindergarden.

I can't wait till we're arguing about the tier one nursing homes.

One of my colleagues who recently graduated used to joke about this.  She swore that if someone ranked the bathrooms on campus, you'd see a line of law students waiting to use the #1 toilet. 

They should totally do that just to have literal TTTs

180. I like the direction this thread has taken. By like token, I offer the following:

Dr. Pepper

(2 lines)
Mr. Pibb/Cherry Coke

(3 lines)
Coke/Diet Dr. Pepper/Dr. Brown's

(1 line)
Fresca

(8,647,591,444 lines)
Pepsi

not-so-subtle Fresca troll
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: awesomepossum on June 04, 2007, 02:20:26 PM
This is such a silly thread-  we're all going to "elite" schools.  We'll get some swell jobs and be fine.  Hakuna Matata.

The Captain is engorged with jealousy.


What is it that I love about the word 'engorged'?

Emory is elite.  Doesn't it dominate the south?
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: prelaw200 on June 04, 2007, 02:25:59 PM
This is such a silly thread-  we're all going to "elite" schools.  We'll get some swell jobs and be fine.  Hakuna Matata.

The Captain is engorged with jealousy.


What is it that I love about the word 'engorged'?

Emory is elite.  Doesn't it dominate the south?

If you define the south as not including Duke.

Or UVA and to a lesser extent Vandy.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Jolie Was Here on June 04, 2007, 02:26:42 PM
This is such a silly thread-  we're all going to "elite" schools.  We'll get some swell jobs and be fine.  Hakuna Matata.

The Captain is engorged with jealousy.


What is it that I love about the word 'engorged'?

Emory is elite.  Doesn't it dominate the south?

Please tell me that this is a rhetorical.  :P  Or I just may answer it.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: awesomepossum on June 04, 2007, 02:27:55 PM
This is such a silly thread-  we're all going to "elite" schools.  We'll get some swell jobs and be fine.  Hakuna Matata.

The Captain is engorged with jealousy.


What is it that I love about the word 'engorged'?

Emory is elite.  Doesn't it dominate the south?

Please tell me that this is a rhetorical.  :P  Or I just may answer it.



Uh oh............

you know you want to.....
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: awesomepossum on June 04, 2007, 02:42:25 PM
This is such a silly thread-  we're all going to "elite" schools.  We'll get some swell jobs and be fine.  Hakuna Matata.

The Captain is engorged with jealousy.


What is it that I love about the word 'engorged'?

Emory is elite.  Doesn't it dominate the south?

Please tell me that this is a rhetorical.  :P  Or I just may answer it.

Easy there.
Young people in the room. ;)

If there are HS'ers trolling law school boards, they have bigger problems.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: awesomepossum on June 04, 2007, 02:46:50 PM
well..... "BYU is the Lord's school" - guy might be offended........

I just can't get over that.....    :-*
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Captain on June 04, 2007, 06:02:16 PM
This is such a silly thread-  we're all going to "elite" schools.  We'll get some swell jobs and be fine.  Hakuna Matata.

The Captain is engorged with jealousy.


What is it that I love about the word 'engorged'?

Emory is elite.  Doesn't it dominate the south?

Sort of.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Schruted on June 04, 2007, 09:39:42 PM
It's a little bit depressing/awesome to know the 2008 cycle kids who are too afraid to say anything are actually going to be influenced by this thread and many others like it.

I originally put NYU in the T6, along with CC. It looks like a lot of people are saying T5, with NYU in its own little inferior world. Then there was that hilarious MindTheGap reference, as if he would ever provide an objective view of Chicago relative to Columbia and NYU.

All I will add to this internet message board pissfest is that there are several good reasons why hardly any NYU students or students-to-be post here. To begin with, it's an internet message board.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Hank Rearden on June 04, 2007, 09:42:43 PM
It's a little bit depressing/awesome to know the 2008 cycle kids who are too afraid to say anything are actually going to be influenced by this thread and many others like it.

I originally put NYU in the T6, along with CC. It looks like a lot of people are saying T5, with NYU in its own little inferior world. Then there was that hilarious MindTheGap reference, as if he would ever provide an objective view of Chicago relative to Columbia and NYU.

All I will add to this internet message board pissfest is that there are several good reasons why hardly any NYU students or students-to-be post here. To begin with, it's an internet message board.

And NYU students are busy out saving the world?
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: awesomepossum on June 04, 2007, 09:46:40 PM
It's a little bit depressing/awesome to know the 2008 cycle kids who are too afraid to say anything are actually going to be influenced by this thread and many others like it.

I originally put NYU in the T6, along with CC. It looks like a lot of people are saying T5, with NYU in its own little inferior world. Then there was that hilarious MindTheGap reference, as if he would ever provide an objective view of Chicago relative to Columbia and NYU.

All I will add to this internet message board pissfest is that there are several good reasons why hardly any NYU students or students-to-be post here. To begin with, it's an internet message board.

What are those internets you speak of?
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: boulevardier on June 05, 2007, 06:18:08 AM
Actually, as someone who was also considering NYU and has spent a lot of time reading his posts, I found his statements forthright and neutral.

He noted that Chicago was the best choice for him.  While he has spent a lot of time advocating Chicago, he was also careful to list the pros and cons of each school, and let us arrive at our own conclusions about the best school for our respective needs. He didn't try to hide the fact that he wasn't a fan of NYU, but that doesn't preclude him from presenting the virtues of each school objectively.   Unfortunately, I think your NYU bias is affecting your judgment.  Suck it up.

It's a little bit depressing/awesome to know the 2008 cycle kids who are too afraid to say anything are actually going to be influenced by this thread and many others like it.

I originally put NYU in the T6, along with CC. It looks like a lot of people are saying T5, with NYU in its own little inferior world. Then there was that hilarious MindTheGap reference, as if he would ever provide an objective view of Chicago relative to Columbia and NYU.
All I will add to this internet message board pissfest is that there are several good reasons why hardly any NYU students or students-to-be post here. To begin with, it's an internet message board.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: ě on June 05, 2007, 06:22:02 AM
So, what do you base MTP's opinions being unbiased on while Schruted's are biased? If MTP is explicitly negative towards NYU, that's obviously going to affect his opinions, apparently objective as they may be.

Meh, who cares really, NYU students are going to prefer their school, Chicago students their.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on June 05, 2007, 06:33:04 AM
Actually, as someone who was also considering NYU and has spent a lot of time reading his posts, I found his statements forthright and neutral.

He noted that Chicago was the best choice for him.  While he has spent a lot of time advocating Chicago, he was also careful to list the pros and cons of each school, and let us arrive at our own conclusions about the best school for our respective needs. He didn't try to hide the fact that he wasn't a fan of NYU, but that doesn't preclude him from presenting the virtues of each school objectively.   Unfortunately, I think your NYU bias is affecting your judgment.  Suck it up.

It's a little bit depressing/awesome to know the 2008 cycle kids who are too afraid to say anything are actually going to be influenced by this thread and many others like it.

I originally put NYU in the T6, along with CC. It looks like a lot of people are saying T5, with NYU in its own little inferior world. Then there was that hilarious MindTheGap reference, as if he would ever provide an objective view of Chicago relative to Columbia and NYU.
All I will add to this internet message board pissfest is that there are several good reasons why hardly any NYU students or students-to-be post here. To begin with, it's an internet message board.

I agree...

ETA:  To elaborate, I've read numerous MTG posts on LSD and xo and while MTG has always been honest about how his own NYU ASW turned him off,  he has always been forthcoming about substantative info like hiring (aka, firm cutoffs), profs, city, all that stuff--he's pretty much objective, and he was a help to me when I was deciding btwn CLS and Chi.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: boulevardier on June 05, 2007, 06:46:12 AM
No, I don't believe he is explicitly negative towards NYU.  He just said NYU just wasn't the school for him and explained why (I don't want to speak for him, but that was my interpretation of his comments).  I think MTG's honesty on that point was a benefit to the reader, so we could filter his comments with an understanding of the context that influenced his opinion.

What I said was, MTG's personal opinion didn't prevent him from objectively presenting the pros and cons for each school, which Schruted faulted him for.

And, MCB agreed with me, so obviously I'm right (Well, maybe not the "Suck it up" part) :P

So, what do you base MTP's opinions being unbiased on while Schruted's are biased? If MTP is explicitly negative towards NYU, that's obviously going to affect his opinions, apparently objective as they may be.

Meh, who cares really, NYU students are going to prefer their school, Chicago students their.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: boulevardier on June 05, 2007, 06:59:05 AM
What she said in bolded but I didn't articulate...

Actually, as someone who was also considering NYU and has spent a lot of time reading his posts, I found his statements forthright and neutral.

He noted that Chicago was the best choice for him.  While he has spent a lot of time advocating Chicago, he was also careful to list the pros and cons of each school, and let us arrive at our own conclusions about the best school for our respective needs. He didn't try to hide the fact that he wasn't a fan of NYU, but that doesn't preclude him from presenting the virtues of each school objectively.   Unfortunately, I think your NYU bias is affecting your judgment.  Suck it up.

It's a little bit depressing/awesome to know the 2008 cycle kids who are too afraid to say anything are actually going to be influenced by this thread and many others like it.

I originally put NYU in the T6, along with CC. It looks like a lot of people are saying T5, with NYU in its own little inferior world. Then there was that hilarious MindTheGap reference, as if he would ever provide an objective view of Chicago relative to Columbia and NYU.
All I will add to this internet message board pissfest is that there are several good reasons why hardly any NYU students or students-to-be post here. To begin with, it's an internet message board.

I agree...

ETA:  To elaborate, I've read numerous MTG posts on LSD and xo and while MTG has always been honest about how his own NYU ASW turned him off,  he has always been forthcoming about substantative info like hiring (aka, firm cutoffs), profs, city, all that stuff--he's pretty much objective, and he was a help to me when I was deciding btwn CLS and Chi.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: ě on June 05, 2007, 07:09:54 AM
Not disagreeing, but out of curiosity, how do you find reliable info of Big Law cutoffs for various schools really?

Also, claiming any school places better than CLS in Big Law needs some backing up imo. Pretty much all information I can find anywhere is that CLS really owns the Big Law market.

2006 V100 placement data, just for argument's sake (does not consider any self-selection obviously);

Quote
4 Columbia 80.2%
3 Harvard 74.1%
6 Chicago 71.4%
1 Yale 68.8%
2 Stanford 65.9%
4 NYU 61.2%
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on June 05, 2007, 07:20:06 AM
Not disagreeing, but out of curiosity, how do you find reliable info of Big Law cutoffs for various schools really?

Also, claiming any school places better than CLS in Big Law needs some backing up imo. Pretty much all information I can find anywhere is that CLS really owns the Big Law market.

2006 V100 placement data, just for argument's sake (does not consider any self-selection obviously);

Quote
4 Columbia 80.2%
3 Harvard 74.1%
6 Chicago 71.4%
1 Yale 68.8%
2 Stanford 65.9%
4 NYU 61.2%

no one said the bolded...or at least i didn't
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: ě on June 05, 2007, 07:28:51 AM
Oh, it wasn't really meant as an accusation towards anyone :) Just that Big Law placement is a good measurement of school quality (or at least so I think).
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on June 05, 2007, 07:30:03 AM
Oh, it wasn't really meant as an accusation towards anyone :) Just that Big Law placement is a good measurement of school quality (or at least so I think).

i don't think it's a measure of school quality--it hink it just shows how elitist firms are.  it's a self fullfiling prophecy
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: ě on June 05, 2007, 07:31:32 AM
Sure, but unless the firms are delusional the elitism comes from quality. I don't think V100 firms would keep employing 80% of Columbia's grads if they turned out to be *&^% lawyers.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on June 05, 2007, 07:34:18 AM
Sure, but unless the firms are delusional the elitism comes from quality. I don't think V100 firms would keep employing 80% of Columbia's grads if they turned out to be *&^% lawyers.

that true--but think about all of the schools that they don't give a chance to prove themselves either just bc they are lower tiered. like, i don't think you are wrong--i just don't think the firm hiring is a good measure of overall quality.  however, i will say that i definitely strived for a school that would give me a vastly easier time at hiring  :D
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: ě on June 05, 2007, 07:39:07 AM
Yeah, that I certainly agree with, and I think I've made a point out of it many times earlier. :)

Still, law firms live on reputation, and their attorney list will just show "JD, Columbia Law School" not "Bottom of his class JD, Columbia Law School". So it's still all good for them in terms of marketing to clients.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on June 05, 2007, 07:46:25 AM
Yeah, that I certainly agree with, and I think I've made a point out of it many times earlier. :)

Still, law firms live on reputation, and their attorney list will just show "JD, Columbia Law School" not "Bottom of his class JD, Columbia Law School". So it's still all good for them in terms of marketing to clients.

that was my point behind the elitism of firm hiring...and the self fulfilling propehcy  ;)
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: ě on June 05, 2007, 07:49:39 AM
I know, I wasn't really disagreeing :p
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on June 05, 2007, 07:55:12 AM
I know, I wasn't really disagreeing :p

 :)
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Ilovecheese on June 05, 2007, 07:57:49 AM
Oh, it wasn't really meant as an accusation towards anyone :) Just that Big Law placement is a good measurement of school quality (or at least so I think).

I think YLS and HLS are not up there is because many students go into academia or govn't when they graduate from those schools.

Also, I really doubt student bodies among top 5 law schools differ much, they have pretty much the same numbers and same backgrounds.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: ě on June 05, 2007, 08:06:07 AM
You're probably right, but was really looking for empirical, objective numbers and it's hard to find any of those that can factor for self-selection in any way.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Ilovecheese on June 05, 2007, 08:09:30 AM
You're probably right, but was really looking for empirical, objective numbers and it's hard to find any of those that can factor for self-selection in any way.

I think US news breaks down employment by category, so you can get a sense of where students go.

found this in us news rankings:
Yale:
Law firms: 37%
   Business/industry (legal): 0%
   Business/industry (nonlegal): 3%
   Government: 3%
   Public interest: 6%
   Judicial clerkship: 51%
   Academia: 2%
   Unknown: 0%


Columbia:
   Law firms: 78%
   Business/industry (legal): 1%
   Business/industry (nonlegal): 1%
   Government: 2%
   Public interest: 4%
   Judicial clerkship: 14%
   Academia: 0%
   Unknown: 0%


Title: Re: t-14
Post by: mrdunson on June 05, 2007, 08:38:50 AM
Whoever is talking bad about MindTheGap is a fool.  That guy is one of the best, most honest and informed posters that ever was a regular poster on LSD.  He migrated to XO mainly as a law student and still maintained his nice guy attitude.   What he says about your chances, choices and Chicago should be taken very seriously. 
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: ě on June 05, 2007, 08:43:04 AM
Anyone who migrates to XO shouldn't be taken seriously.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: mrdunson on June 05, 2007, 08:44:44 AM
You're going to NYU?  You'll be on there soon enough.  They have the scoop on the top schools and biglaw and oci and stuff that lsd doesn't have available. 
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on June 05, 2007, 08:45:04 AM
Anyone who migrates to XO shouldn't be taken seriously.

not true

(full disclosure: i don't post there and ppl are always shitting on blks there...but when u sift thru the trash, you will find good info)
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: ě on June 05, 2007, 08:47:12 AM
You're going to NYU?  You'll be on there soon enough.  They have the scoop on the top schools and biglaw and oci and stuff that lsd doesn't have available. 

I can assure you I will not

Quote
not true

Wasn't really being serious.
Title: Re: t-14
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on June 05, 2007, 08:49:29 AM
You're going to NYU?  You'll be on there soon enough.  They have the scoop on the top schools and biglaw and oci and stuff that lsd doesn't have available. 

I can assure you I will not

Quote
not true

Wasn't really being serious.

 :D ;)