Law School Discussion

Specific Groups => Black Law Students => Topic started by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 14, 2007, 06:45:27 PM

Title: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 14, 2007, 06:45:27 PM
Having officially started Bar Prep today, I invite any and all fellow JD's out there who are sharing in the hazing process to share your tales here; and law students and pre-laws can feel free to ask Bar Related questions. Perhaps we can all get through the insanity together.

------------------
DAY 1:

Dear Future, Current, and Past Law Students of the BLSD and beyond,

Today was the first day of PMBR.  That acronym may not mean much to you now as you make your way through the jungle of the law school application process, but trust and believe you will become familiar with it.  Don't worry about what it stands for...to be honest I don't even know what it stands for an I'm a PMBR rep at my law school.  What is important is what it can give you.  And as I write this, I have no idea whether or not any of this crap they have us going through will make the difference in passing or failing the bar, but I have to believe that it does - otherwise what the hell am I doing getting out of bed at 7:45am on a Monday. I don't get up on Mondays anymore. I don't get up on any days anymore for that matter. Haven't done that since we were actual law students (aka 1L's). 

So like I was saying, Day 1 was contracts.  They had us sit down in this crowded auditorium and take a 2 1/2 hour practice exam of the MBE.  The MBE is one acronym that is probably worth knowing - that's the Multi-state Bar Exam.  That's a fancy way of saying "Multiple Choice."  Yes, just when you thought that standardized testing was over and done with, POW! Here comes the MBE upside your dome.  The MBE...taking the substantive law that took you 4 months (or even up to a year) to memorize and fully comprehend and reducing it down to nothing more than a commercialized and meaningless "fill in the bubble" answer sheet.  What a concept.  All those nuances you learned - gone. All those exceptions to the exceptions to the exceptions - gone.  All those hours spent trying to argue "both sides" of every legal issue - gone.  Just fill in "C," Pal and keep it moving.

Oh you'll get the opportunity to write the essays that you know and love on the bar exam itself, but that's not until day 2 of the actual bar exam.  That's what BarBri prepares you for.  (if you don't know what BarBri is yet, you soon will).  Day 1 is the multiple choice day of the exam.  That's where the real fun is.  At no surprise, this is also the day that makes or breaks most law students.  People fail the bar because they fail the multiple choice half of the bar, not because they failed the essay half.  You've been writing essays on law school exams for 3 years by now, you got that *&^% down to a science (hopefully).  Mutliple choice however...you either know it or you don't.  And sometimes, even when you know it, you still don't.  They go by this "pick the best answer" bull that basically means that more than one answer can be correct, and you have to choose the "Best" correct (or incorrect) answer out of what you are given.

So they'll say some stuff like NYU Law School is located in:

A. California
B. Ohio
C. New Jersey
D. Virgina

The answer being "C" because Jersey is the "most correct" answer, even though it is wrong.

So anyway, getting back to Day 1 of PMBR - the multiple choice people.  Today was Contracts.  I hate contracts. I probably hate contracts b/c I hated my professor who "taught" contracts. I say "taught" but let's keep it real, he didn't teach jack *&^%.  I learned contract law from Examples and Explanations, with a touch of Crunch Time.  Which basically means I know the general concepts and that's about it.  Rather, I should say I knew the general concepts, because after todays mock test I can clearly see now that I don't know jack about contracts. 

50 multiple choice questions.  I got 20 correct.  What's worse is that when the professor polled the room to see how many people got right, the overwhelming majority got no higher than 25 correct.  That's 1/2 man!  WTF? 

So there I am, graduating 3L, managing editor of Law Review, teaching & research assistant for multiple classes, on top of my game and got a whopping 20 out of 50 contracts questions correct.  HA!  :D  Gotta laugh at that one.  Straight comedy. But the cool part was nobody was really trippin off of it because as today's lecturer told us, it does not matter how many you got correct or incorrect today - the Bar Exam is in July.  You have 2 months to build on today and make sure you get these questions right when it counts. 

And in case you're wondering what type of questions they ask, since the fair use doctrine applies here and there's no copyright infringement I'll give an example of a short one (one of the very few that I actually got right):




In a written contract Singer agreed to deliver to Byer 500 described chairs at $20 each F.O.B. Singer's place of business.  The contract provided that "neither party will assign this contract without the written consent of the other."  Singer placed the chairs on board a carrier on January 30.  On February 1 Singer said in a signed writing, "I hereby assign to Wheeler all my rights under the Singer-Byer contract."  Singer did not request and did not get Byer's consent to this transaction.  On February 2 the chairs while in transit were destroyed in a derailment of the carrier's railroad car.

In an action by Wheeler against Byer, Wheeler probably will recover

(A) nothing, because the Singer-Byer contract forbade an assignment
(B) the difference between the contract price and the market value of the chairs
(c) nothing, because the chairs had not been delivered
(D) $10,000, the contract price


Yeah.   :P   I'll let ya'll figure that one out. 


Day 2 tomorrow: Property. More to come later....

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Justiceforall on May 14, 2007, 06:53:26 PM
I'm told one should go to the a law in the state they plan on practicing law. Is that good advice? I  plan on going to a school in the north east (or maybe out west..not sure how standford is) but I plan practicing in Florida. Is this a  recipie for disaster? going to harvard law school and trying to pass the Florida Bar?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: pikey on May 14, 2007, 06:55:04 PM

In a written contract Singer agreed to deliver to to Byer 500 described chairs at $20 each F.O.B. Singer's place of business.  The contract provided that "neither party will assign this contract without the written consent of the other."  Singer placed the chairs on board a carrier on January 30.  On February 1 Singer said in a signed writing, "I hereby assign to Wheeler all my rights under the Singer-Byer contract."  Singer did not request and did not get Byer's consent to this transaction.  On February 2 the chairs while in transit were destroyed in a derailment of the carrier's railroad car.

In an action by Wheeler against Byer, Wheeler probably will recover

(A) nothing, because the Singer-Byer contract forbade an assignment
(B) the difference between the contract price and the market value of the chairs
(c) nothing, because the chairs had not been delivered
(D) $10,000, the contract price


Yeah.   :P   I'll let ya'll figure that one out. 


Day 2 tomorrow: Property. More to come later....



Is it A, because Wheeler has no legal standing to bring action against Byer because the assignation was void?  On the other hand, the question doesn't explicitly state that W paid any consideration for the assignation, just that B assigned his rights (ie the chairs).  So I'd assume that W would have to case if he gave no consideration, because the assignment is just a gift.  Then again...  ???

What's the damn answer?  :D
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 14, 2007, 07:04:13 PM
C?

Do people take Barbri without taking PMBR?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 14, 2007, 07:34:46 PM
Something screwy went on with the board.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 14, 2007, 08:12:02 PM
I'm told one should go to the a law in the state they plan on practicing law. Is that good advice? I  plan on going to a school in the north east (or maybe out west..not sure how standford is) but I plan practicing in Florida. Is this a  recipie for disaster? going to harvard law school and trying to pass the Florida Bar?

Generally speaking, most people do, in fact, attend law school in the state in which they want to practice b/c, as you mentioned here, you learn the state law of the state in which your law school resides.  However (get used to the word "however", it will be used in law school every time you learn a rule about anything) this is not always the case.  It is quite possible to take state A's bar exam and attend law school in state B.   I don't have the actual number, but I think that a good % (I want to say the majority) of law students who attend Harvard law school in particular do not take the Massachusetts bar.  I have several classmates taking the Florida bar exam in July.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 14, 2007, 08:13:18 PM
Something screwy went on with the board.

Yeah, that was weird.  It wouldn't let me reply at all.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Sparkz1920 on May 14, 2007, 08:21:05 PM
I would say C

A contract requires an agreement, offer, and acceptance.Ownership was never transferred from one persom to the other, and since its personal property, it must always have an owner

It was not accepted, so it should be null and void

Just a guess...Dont kill me
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 14, 2007, 08:23:59 PM
C?

Do people take Barbri without taking PMBR?

You can't just say C and not give any explanation. You know that don't ride in law school. :D


As far as BarBri without PMBR, I would say the vast majority do exactly that.  About 90% (or more) of law students take BarBri. Only about...20, maybe 25% take PMBR.


Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Sparkz1920 on May 14, 2007, 08:30:04 PM
I'm told one should go to the a law in the state they plan on practicing law. Is that good advice? I  plan on going to a school in the north east (or maybe out west..not sure how standford is) but I plan practicing in Florida. Is this a  recipie for disaster? going to harvard law school and trying to pass the Florida Bar?

I was told the same thing by my philosophy professor because im going to school in Lousiana and surely, im not trying to stay here. Being as this is the only civil law state, things are going to be taught differently focusing on civil law. But another professor of mine told me that any good law school will prepare you to take the bar exam anywhere. We'll see i guess
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 14, 2007, 08:39:17 PM
C?

Do people take Barbri without taking PMBR?

You can't just say C and not give any explanation. You know that don't ride in law school. :D


As far as BarBri without PMBR, I would say the vast majority do exactly that.  About 90% (or more) of law students take BarBri. Only about...20, maybe 25% take PMBR.


Lol so is PMBR for the neurotic people? ;)

Actually, now that I think about it (and looked up F.O.B.), I think I'd go with D.  All of the terms of the contract had been met (except payment) prior to the assignment.  Alternatively, A.  I bet it's A, even though I think it should be D.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 14, 2007, 09:08:37 PM
See I'm thinking Wheeler could recover from Byer, who could sue the shipping company.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on May 14, 2007, 09:12:05 PM
I know the answer, but I won't tell.

(My first day of PMBR, also.)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Rudy Huckleberry on May 14, 2007, 09:13:08 PM
See I'm thinking Wheeler could recover from Byer, who could sue the shipping company.

But can you sue someone for having an accident? Didn't we read some case about how you can't do that? I think Byer is just screwed (?) because of the F.O.B. thing?

EDIT: I dunno, depends on why they had the derailment.

And why could Wheeler recover anything from Byer if the assignment was invalid?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: thelawfool on May 14, 2007, 09:14:12 PM
my gut was C too.  can't explain why.  don't really care to.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 14, 2007, 09:16:10 PM
See I'm thinking Wheeler could recover from Byer, who could sue the shipping company.

But can you sue someone for having an accident? Didn't we read some case about how you can't do that? I think Byer is just screwed (?) because of the F.O.B. thing?

EDIT: I dunno, depends on why they had the derailment.

And why could Wheeler recover anything if the assignment was invalid?

I don't think the assignment was necessarily invalid, since Singer had done everything to perform his end of the contract *before* assigning it to wheeler.

And I think you can sue a carrier for losing/damaging your stuff, unless you sign a waiver.  They have a duty of care.  But I'm rusty too.  Contracts used to be my subject!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 14, 2007, 09:20:46 PM
See I'm thinking Wheeler could recover from Byer, who could sue the shipping company.

But can you sue someone for having an accident? Didn't we read some case about how you can't do that? I think Byer is just screwed (?) because of the F.O.B. thing?

EDIT: I dunno, depends on why they had the derailment.

And why could Wheeler recover anything if the assignment was invalid?

I don't think the assignment was necessarily invalid, since Singer had done everything to perform his end of the contract *before* assigning it to wheeler.

And I think you can sue a carrier for losing/damaging your stuff, unless you sign a waiver.  They have a duty of care.  But I'm rusty too.  Contracts used to be my subject!

Well, the contract was still incomplete, right? Since Byers hadn't paid...the transaction wasn't complete (?)


Yeah, which is why I said I bet it's A, even though I think it should be D.  That is, Judge Alci would make him pay.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Sparkz1920 on May 14, 2007, 09:22:14 PM
Guess im loud and wrong

Oh well, guess ill sit down and learn
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Sparkz1920 on May 14, 2007, 09:28:58 PM
I don't know a damn thing about anything, and I'd say that Wheeler can't recover from Byer at all.  Wheeler would need to recover from S, who in turn would be able to recover from W.  And W can probably recover from the shipping company, since FOB implies that the goods become W's once they are handed to the shipping company, and W must have arranged the shipping and would be protected against what happened if the goods were insured.

I didnt think Wheeler could recover from Byer at all because the goods were technically, not his yet. Transfer never occured. Shyt, i dunno
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Sparkz1920 on May 14, 2007, 09:30:03 PM
Nevermind


Read it all wrong

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Sparkz1920 on May 14, 2007, 09:32:29 PM
A

The contract provided that "neither party will assign this contract without the written consent of the other"

Singer didnt get Byers consent

Null and void im guessing
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Sparkz1920 on May 14, 2007, 09:35:42 PM
I don't know a damn thing about anything, and I'd say that Wheeler can't recover from Byer at all.  Wheeler would need to recover from S, who in turn would be able to recover from W.  And W can probably recover from the shipping company, since FOB implies that the goods become W's once they are handed to the shipping company, and W must have arranged the shipping and would be protected against what happened if the goods were insured.

I didnt think Wheeler could recover from Byer at all because the goods were technically, not his yet. Transfer never occured. Shyt, i dunno

Doesn't FOB imply that the transfer happens when the goods are turned over to the shipping company?  I could be wrong, but that's what sticks out of my head from an undergradute international trade course i took in 1999.

I'm literally a 0L with 0 legal knowledge, for what it's worth.  I'm talking out my ass.


Hmmmm, you may know more than me, so you could be very right. Im not sure at all

But im guessing, since the goods were not Wheelers, he cannot get anything

Then on top of that, the contract was never approved, signed, or whatever by the other party like it was supposed to, so i dont think the ownership of the goods ever transferred
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Sparkz1920 on May 14, 2007, 09:37:16 PM
I don't know a damn thing about anything, and I'd say that Wheeler can't recover from Byer at all.  Wheeler would need to recover from S, who in turn would be able to recover from W.  And W can probably recover from the shipping company, since FOB implies that the goods become W's once they are handed to the shipping company, and W must have arranged the shipping and would be protected against what happened if the goods were insured.

I didnt think Wheeler could recover from Byer at all because the goods were technically, not his yet. Transfer never occured. Shyt, i dunno

Doesn't FOB imply that the transfer happens when the goods are turned over to the shipping company?  I could be wrong, but that's what sticks out of my head from an undergradute international trade course i took in 1999.

I'm literally a 0L with 0 legal knowledge, for what it's worth.  I'm talking out my ass.

Oh honey, im talking out my ass too. Im a 0L as well. But at least we're backing our statements up with some type of knoweldge. May be wrong, but hey, we're still learning

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 14, 2007, 10:14:23 PM



In a written contract Singer agreed to deliver to Byer 500 described chairs at $20 each F.O.B. Singer's place of business.  The contract provided that "neither party will assign this contract without the written consent of the other."  Singer placed the chairs on board a carrier on January 30.  On February 1 Singer said in a signed writing, "I hereby assign to Wheeler all my rights under the Singer-Byer contract."  Singer did not request and did not get Byer's consent to this transaction.  On February 2 the chairs while in transit were destroyed in a derailment of the carrier's railroad car.

In an action by Wheeler against Byer, Wheeler probably will recover

(A) nothing, because the Singer-Byer contract forbade an assignment
(B) the difference between the contract price and the market value of the chairs
(C) nothing, because the chairs had not been delivered
(D) $10,000, the contract price





OK ok ok, I'll end the madness for today (I'll be sure to post the Property one tomorrow).  Good to see so many well reasoned responses.  By the way, before we get into the answer, I forgot to mention that you have, on average, 1.8 minutes (that's 1 minute 48 seconds) per question.  So everything we just talked about, you have to go through your brain in less than 2 minutes and keep it moving to the next one.


So what the hell is the answer?  There are a couple of different issues going on here. There's the FOB issue, and the assignment issue.

Sounds like you guys got the FOB issue right. Whenever something is shipped from a Seller to a Buyer, the general rule as you may recall from contracts, is that if anything happens to the goods, such as, oh let's say a friggin train wreck, then the Seller is the one who bears the burden of taking the loss.  However (there's that word again) whenever you have an FOB situation, that allows the Seller to shift the risk to the Buyer once the goods reach the FOB destination and the Seller then puts them on a carrier.  At that point, the Seller can wipe their hands and walk away with no risk should something happen later on.

So here, "Singer agreed to deliver to Byer 500 described chairs at $20 each F.O.B. [to] Singer's place of business" and then "Singer placed the chairs on board a carrier on January 30."  At this point, Singer has shifted the risk to Byer because of the FOB clause that Byer agreed to in the K (K = contract for the 0L's out there).  If anything happens to the goods after January 30th, it's on Byer.

That's issue #1.

Issue #2 is this assignment business.  Direct quote from PMBR: "As a general rule, all contracts are assignable and delegable except personal service contracts and long-term requirement contracts.  Even though there may be an anti-assignment provision in a contract [like here], it does not prevent the assignor [Singer] from assigning his rights. When an assignor makes an assignment in violation of an anti-assignment clause, the assignment is valid."

So there you have it.

Answer is D.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 14, 2007, 10:19:04 PM
w00t w00t!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 14, 2007, 10:23:45 PM
I think it makes sense in this case.  What harm could come from allowing Singer to assign the contract to Wheeler *after* he'd shipped the goods?  It seems like the anti-assigment provision is mainly to make sure Singer doesn't let a subpar maker produce the goods.  But since he didn't do that, it should be fine for him to give someone else the right to collect on the money.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on May 14, 2007, 10:28:27 PM
Alci; that's pretty much it. When you consider an assignment, the assignment gets split into the assignment of benefits and the delegation of duties. In this case, Singer performed the duties under the K, and then assigned the benefits to Wheeler. Delegating the duties can change the value of the K, but assigning the benefits doesn't change the terms, conditions, expectation.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 14, 2007, 10:34:02 PM
Yes, that's a more lawyerly way of saying it ;).  Ah, contracts...
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 14, 2007, 10:40:39 PM
Alci; that's pretty much it. When you consider an assignment, the assignment gets split into the assignment of benefits and the delegation of duties. In this case, Singer performed the duties under the K, and then assigned the benefits to Wheeler. Delegating the duties can change the value of the K, but assigning the benefits doesn't change the terms, conditions, expectation.


Right on.  Although it doesn't make much sense to "assign" your benefits to somebody else after you've done all the dirty work, the law definitely allows it.


What do you think of the bar process so far, Slacker?



Ahh...the assignment was valid. Interesting (and some bull, but that's law!)


I've been saying that for 3 years now.  :D
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 14, 2007, 10:44:17 PM
Or Singer could simply be satisfying a debt to Wheeler.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on May 14, 2007, 10:48:25 PM
PMBR= Preliminary Multistate Bar Review.

I am going into day four of PMBR tomorrow.  So far I have done evidence, torts, and criminal law.  Torts and criminal law are the easiest subjects, while evidence and property are the most difficult.

I have property tomorrow.  I just finished taking the diagnostic test and it was pretty dismal.  But, like Avatar says, we have 2 months to get it right! I did okay on evidence and torts, getting about half of the questions right . . . but criminal law and property I'm pretty weak in those areas.  I'm guessing that con law will be okay but contracts . . . avatar, don't feel bad.  I just might score lower than you!  ;)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on May 14, 2007, 10:53:05 PM
Alci; that's pretty much it. When you consider an assignment, the assignment gets split into the assignment of benefits and the delegation of duties. In this case, Singer performed the duties under the K, and then assigned the benefits to Wheeler. Delegating the duties can change the value of the K, but assigning the benefits doesn't change the terms, conditions, expectation.


Right on.  Although it doesn't make much sense to "assign" your benefits to somebody else after you've done all the dirty work, the law definitely allows it.


What do you think of the bar process so far, Slacker?

I felt kind of whopped upside the head by reality. And it was only day 1. That's why I'm doing the 6-day, though; to get a gauge of where I'm at. I got a little more than 20, but not many. Then again, per the lecturer, that's average for Ks.

My hard day will come later in the week, when I have a final in addition to the lecture.

That said, this little preview tells me that it's going to be a fun summer.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 15, 2007, 06:59:20 AM
PMBR= Preliminary Multistate Bar Review.



Ah, give SMU the gold start for remembering that!



I felt kind of whopped upside the head by reality. And it was only day 1. That's why I'm doing the 6-day, though; to get a gauge of where I'm at. I got a little more than 20, but not many. Then again, per the lecturer, that's average for Ks.

My hard day will come later in the week, when I have a final in addition to the lecture.

That said, this little preview tells me that it's going to be a fun summer.

Yessir!!!!  Off to property.  More to report later.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 15, 2007, 07:18:59 AM
Have fun with the Rule Against Perpetuities.  Measuring life!  lol
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: pikey on May 15, 2007, 07:26:47 AM
Have fun with the Rule Against Perpetuities.  Measuring life!  lol

That hasn't been replaced/repealed in the US? Though we still have some trusts here that go by 20 years after the death of queen elizabeth.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 15, 2007, 07:49:15 AM
Have fun with the Rule Against Perpetuities.  Measuring life!  lol

That hasn't been replaced/repealed in the US? Though we still have some trusts here that go by 20 years after the death of queen elizabeth.

Lol, you semi-brits.  Whether an RAP exists, and if so, which RAP, depends on each state.  Lots of variation.  I think NY still has it.

ETA: Indeed, property law in general has wide state-by-state variation.  At least with contracts, there is a bit of uniformity.  Tort law also has a good deal of variation.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: pikey on May 15, 2007, 07:55:48 AM
Have fun with the Rule Against Perpetuities.  Measuring life!  lol

That hasn't been replaced/repealed in the US? Though we still have some trusts here that go by 20 years after the death of queen elizabeth.

Lol, you semi-brits.  Whether an RAP exists, and if so, which RAP, depends on each state.  Lots of variation.  I think NY still has it.

ETA: Indeed, property law in general has wide state-by-state variation.  At least with contracts, there is a bit of uniformity.  Tort law also has a good deal of variation.

Oh you states and your lack of uniformity.  It's such a female dog to deal with.  We've repealed the RAP and it's straight up 100 years, at least for a trust.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 15, 2007, 07:59:46 AM
Our Federalism 8)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: pikey on May 15, 2007, 08:06:05 AM
Our Federalism 8)

I have to say, this is where my FOBishness really shows.  I just don't get it.  I don't get why the govt doesn't make things more uniform and tell the states to stfu.  I get that the constitution doesn't allow it, but at the same time, wouldn't the states want to be more uniform?  The mind boggles...
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 15, 2007, 08:15:03 AM
Well, the way it was designed was to allow the national government to do certain things that would be inefficient for each state to do (e.g., national defense), while leaving everything else for the states.  The thought is that because the U.S. is so large, leaving things for each state will allow the states--and thus the country--to be more responsive to their residents.  But as time went on, the national gov't usurped increasingly more power (esp. during the Roosevelt years), yet there is still a belief among Americans that the smaller units know best.  And I think there is something to be said for that.  Especially the experimentation function.  If one state successfully innovates, then the others have an incentive to copy.  Like corporations law.  It's surprisingly uniform because each state has the incentive to attract businesses.  Yet, if the national gov't were to regulate all corporate law, it would likely not be nearly as efficient, since there wouldn't have been 50 experiments to see what was right.

Tell me, do you think London or Bermuda knows what's best for Bermudians?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: pikey on May 15, 2007, 08:27:10 AM
Well, the way it was designed was to allow the national government to do certain things that would be inefficient for each state to do (e.g., national defense), while leaving everything else for the states.  The thought is that because the U.S. is so large, leaving things for each state will allow the states--and thus the country--to be more responsive to their residents.  But as time went on, the national gov't usurped increasingly more power (esp. during the Roosevelt years), yet there is still a belief among Americans that the smaller units know best.  And I think there is something to be said for that.  Especially the experimentation function.  If one state successfully innovates, then the others have an incentive to copy.  Like corporations law.  It's surprisingly uniform because each state has the incentive to attract businesses.  Yet, if the national gov't were to regulate all corporate law, it would likely not be nearly as efficient, since there wouldn't have been 50 experiments to see what was right.

Tell me, do you think London or Bermuda knows what's best for Bermudians?

Bermuda is a whole seperate country.  Georgia is not.  :P
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 15, 2007, 08:30:31 AM
Each state is considered sovereign, though.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: pikey on May 15, 2007, 08:33:59 AM
Each state is considered sovereign, though.

That's the part that I don't get.  I understand different countries being sovereign (ie Scotland in the UK), but different states?  It almost doesn't make sense!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 15, 2007, 08:43:25 AM
Lol.  You know, I guess I never thought about its coherence to outsiders.  But yeah, the federal gov't can force the states to do only so much, mainly by conditioning funding on meeting certain requirements or passing a law under the pretense of regulating interstate commerce.  Otherwise, the states are largely free to do what they want.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 15, 2007, 08:43:56 AM
Each state is considered sovereign, though.

That's the part that I don't get.  I understand different countries being sovereign (ie Scotland in the UK), but different states?  It almost doesn't make sense!

But thank god for it!  The people of MA want different laws than the people of AL.

Lol, and trust me...the people of AL want different laws from the people of MA.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: cui bono? on May 15, 2007, 11:09:08 AM
LOL @ this thread...sounds like fun I can't wait  :-\
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 15, 2007, 03:08:58 PM
Dear future bar applicants,


Day 2. Property. 

Oh joyous property.  How do we love thee. Let us count the ways.....

Let's not and say we did.  Today we did the property test.  Got 15 out of 50.  HA again! ;D  I love it!  This is an eye opening experience.  Although, I must say, that as I was going through the property questions, I actually did know the answers at one point, and even if I couldn't get the correct answer I still fully understood what was going on in each question, knew what the issue was, and could narrow it down between one of two answers.  Unlike Contracts, which I effectively learned for the first time ever on Monday, May 14th, 2007.

So kudos to my property professor, although I'm sure she's too old school to be reading this site, but props to her nonetheless.  Out of the 50 questions, there were maybe 2 or 3 that we did not cover in my property class (eg. riparian water rights - heard of it, didn't care enough to research it on my own).

And yes there were a few questions on the R.A.P. but I was surprised to see that they didn't test the Rule in the usual way that you see (with respect to contingent remainders) but instead they tested the Rule in a fact pattern dealing with  a conveyance that had a right of first refusal option.  Yeah.   :P   Basically all you need to know is that any such option to purchase land in the future that lasts longer than 21 years is in violation of the R.A.P.   


And as promised, the Property MBE question of the day, again one of the so very few that I got correct. This one is on Landlord/Tenant issues, so you 0L's may know the answer just from common experience, and if you don't, it's good to know for your own information anyway, so here it is:



Lucia Zarella was a third-year law student at Stetson.  In November, Lucia broke up with her boyfriend and moved out of his apartment.  Thereupon, Lucia entered into a written lease with Bobby Buffet to rent a small bungalow in St. Petersburg for a term of eight months at a rental of $1,000 to be payable on the first day of each month.

Lucia occupied the bungalow through the end of July while she prepared for the Florida Bar Exam.  During the leasehold period, Lucia fully complied with the terms of the lease and made her monthly rental payments on schedule.  Following the bar exam at the end of July, Lucia decided to stay on and continue to occupy the bungalow.  She proceeded to pay Bobby the $1,000 rental for August and September and marked her checks "August rental" and "September rental."

On September 15th, Bobby received an offer from a prospective buyer who is interested in purchasing the bungalow currently occupied by Lucia.  The buyer has indicated that he is only interested in consumating the deal if he can move into the bungalow immediately.

On September 15th Bobby consults with his attorney and inquires how quickly he can terminate Lucia's tenancy if he gives her notice that very day.  Bobby's attorney should advise him that such notice properly served on Lucia on September 15th will terminate her leasehold interest on


(A) September 15th
(B) September 30th
(C) October 15th
(D) October 31st



Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 15, 2007, 03:20:48 PM
I'm going to say D.  She has a month-to-month lease, so I'm thinking she should get at least one more full month after the end of the current period (September 30).  Alternatively, C.

Btw, riparian rights are fun :).
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on May 15, 2007, 06:04:18 PM
Dear future bar applicants,


Day 2. Property. 

Oh joyous property.  How do we love thee. Let us count the ways.....

Let's not and say we did.  Today we did the property test.  Got 15 out of 50.  HA again! ;D  I love it!  This is an eye opening experience.  Although, I must say, that as I was going through the property questions, I actually did know the answers at one point, and even if I couldn't get the correct answer I still fully understood what was going on in each question, knew what the issue was, and could narrow it down between one of two answers.  Unlike Contracts, which I effectively learned for the first time ever on Monday, May 14th, 2007.
I feel much the same. I didn't finish the questions today; I've got a few other things going on and just didn't make it to that point. When going through the answers, though, nothing was completely new even if I didn't always (or less than half on the ones I finished) pick the right one.

Tomorrow, for me, Crim.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: «ě» on May 15, 2007, 06:39:23 PM
Smells like B to me. Although she has a month-to-month lease, they have no commitment for October and I can't see how the month-to-month factor would affect when the contract is terminated in a period that hasn't been paid for.

edit;

Quote
Q: When Must a Property Owner Use a Thirty (30) Day Notice?
A: To terminate a month to month tenancy. To raise the rent 10% or less of the lowest rent over the past twelve months for a month to month tenancy. To change any terms of a month to month rental agreement. Neither tenants or property owners have to state a reason to terminate tenancy. Property owners do not have to state a reason to raise the rent or change the terms of the rental agreement.
So, using more than my 1.5 minute I guess C is more appropriate:p

Issue; 30-days notice necessary, means October 15th earliest
Month-to-month not an issue, as there is no commitment for October, so October 31st is out.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Sparkz1920 on May 15, 2007, 06:39:51 PM
Imma go with

C. October 15th

As far as i know, you have to give a 30 day notice to a tenant
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: «ě» on May 15, 2007, 06:48:26 PM
As far as i know, you have to give a 30 day notice to a tenant

That's so commie :)

Although the tenant would have to give 30 days warning to the landlord when moving, it would make sense the landlord has the same obligation the other way around.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Sparkz1920 on May 15, 2007, 06:59:34 PM
As far as i know, you have to give a 30 day notice to a tenant

That's so commie :)

Although the tenant would have to give 30 days warning to the landlord when moving, it would make sense the landlord has the same obligation the other way around.

Yeah, thats what im guessing. But since she is on a month to month lease, im not sure

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: «ě» on May 15, 2007, 07:00:53 PM
I am, I googled it and edited my first reply, 30 days notice required.

I fear googling is not allowed on the Bar exam, no? :(
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 15, 2007, 07:05:57 PM
Dood if you're going to cheat, don't put the answer on the blackboard.  Spoils the fun.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Sparkz1920 on May 15, 2007, 07:10:13 PM
 :D

Naw, dont think so


Im moving out because i am graduating on Sunday, but i havent given my apartment mgr a notice. Of course we have talked about it, but i dont want her to do anything to me. Since i am on a month to month lease, i dont think i have any obligation to let her know anything, esepcially since i am paying extra for being on a month to month lease

But i looked up the law, and if im interpreting it right for Louisiana, i have to give her 10 days before the 1st of the month to let her know im leaving.

generally, absent contrary agreement, a month to month tenant may cancel his lease by giving the landlord written notice 10 days prior to the current rental month.La. Code. Civ 2686

So imma give her this good little notice tomorrow that i typed up.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 15, 2007, 07:15:16 PM
La. Code. Civ 2686

Ah, Louisiana and its civil code.  Hope you're going to law school in LA if you want to practice there...
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Sparkz1920 on May 15, 2007, 07:20:25 PM
hmmmm@GCoop


Good Point

But i shouldnt get til the end of the month, when you told me i had to vacate in the middle of the month, I should get 30 days

But who knows, sometimes the law is all screwed up n-e-way
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Sparkz1920 on May 15, 2007, 07:23:08 PM
La. Code. Civ 2686

Ah, Louisiana and its civil code.  Hope you're going to law school in LA if you want to practice there...


I dont want to practice here, but i am going to attend law school here

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Rudy Huckleberry on May 15, 2007, 08:11:03 PM
ewww, property. [vomit icon would go here if I weren't too lazy to find one]

I'm getting rrrreally concerned about my ability to pass the bar. This thread is depressing. :'(
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 15, 2007, 08:17:22 PM
Dood that's why you take the course.  The useful stuff we know could be learned in a day or so...just skip the theory ;).
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: cui bono? on May 16, 2007, 07:45:58 AM
La. Code. Civ 2686

Ah, Louisiana and its civil code.  Hope you're going to law school in LA if you want to practice there...


I dont want to practice here, but i am going to attend law school here



Does your school "teach" for the bar you do want to take?  There are 3 places where I'd like to practice-  NY, ATL,GA or in FL.  My school's good for all those states.   
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on May 16, 2007, 09:07:52 AM
La. Code. Civ 2686

Ah, Louisiana and its civil code.  Hope you're going to law school in LA if you want to practice there...


I dont want to practice here, but i am going to attend law school here



Does your school "teach" for the bar you do want to take?  There are 3 places where I'd like to practice-  NY, ATL,GA or in FL.  My school's good for all those states.   
From what I've seen, the LA law schools teach their students to practice in LA, as well as in common law jurisdictions.

I don't think any school really teaches for the bar -- hence, barbri, PMBR, Micromash, Adaptibar, etc., etc.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Sparkz1920 on May 16, 2007, 11:42:04 AM
La. Code. Civ 2686

Ah, Louisiana and its civil code.  Hope you're going to law school in LA if you want to practice there...


I dont want to practice here, but i am going to attend law school here



Does your school "teach" for the bar you do want to take?  There are 3 places where I'd like to practice-  NY, ATL,GA or in FL.  My school's good for all those states.   

As far as i know, it does. I was worried about that as well because my Philosphy Professor said that i shouldnt go there unless i wanted to practice in Louisiana

Spoke to a professor who went there and he told me it would prepare me to take the bar anywhere

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on May 16, 2007, 04:56:07 PM
I don't know of any schools that teach for the bar exam.

Hence why Barbri and PMBR make so much money.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on May 16, 2007, 07:10:53 PM
I was talking to someone from Capital. She said that they have some sort of bar prep class.

Then again, she's in PMBR now and will be in BarBri this summer...
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 16, 2007, 07:53:07 PM
I don't know of any schools that teach for the bar exam.

Hence why Barbri and PMBR make so much money.

And therein lies the problem (or at least one of the major problems) with legal education.  Makes you wonder what those 3 years are for.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 16, 2007, 07:53:32 PM
Dood what was the answer?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 16, 2007, 08:05:09 PM
Dood what was the answer?

Ah, my bad son.  I believe you got this one right again, the answer was (D) October 31st.   After a lease expires, like here, and the parties go on a month-to-month tenancy, 30 days notice must be given by the Landlord to the Tenant that the Landlord wishes to Terminate.  The catch is that the Landlord is prohibited from effectuating that 30 days notice mid-term.  Therefore, the Landlord must allow the full month's period to expire after notice is given before the lease can be considered terminated.  Since her month to month period started on the 1st of each month here, the Landlord can't cut it short half way through; he has to let the term expire as it normally would.



Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 16, 2007, 08:07:21 PM
w00t!

Then again, I figured NY would be even more generous.  Although not as bad as San Fran, where it's next to impossible to kick people out (there's the one famous story in which residents managed to stay in a building for like 10 years).
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on May 16, 2007, 08:27:48 PM
To make student loan companies rich and to network. ;)

I don't know of any schools that teach for the bar exam.

Hence why Barbri and PMBR make so much money.

And therein lies the problem (or at least one of the major problems) with legal education.  Makes you wonder what those 3 years are for.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 16, 2007, 08:43:19 PM
ewww, property. [vomit icon would go here if I weren't too lazy to find one]

I'm getting rrrreally concerned about my ability to pass the bar. This thread is depressing. :'(

Girl don't sweat it.  Your school has like a 99.999% bar passage rate or something right?  You have to pass the bar. There's no option for you. Take the courses and you're good money.

Speaking of the course, DAY 3 - Torts. 

Finally, an uncomplicated subject.  I ended up getting 41 out of the 50 test questions correct!!!  How about that sh!t?  You can call your parents back home and ask them torts questions and even though they may not know the legalese terminology they can usually guess correctly as to who is liable.  The bar seems to love Strict Liability and Strict Products Liability questions. There were a slew of those. Also, they test big time on the differences between Invitee, Licensee, and Trespasser.  They cover your standard intentional and unintentional torts (battery, assault, defamation, negligence, etc.), plus they throw in invasion of privacy actions, which I didn't go over in my torts class so I missed those questions.  Oh, and one helpful thing that we learned is that on the bar exam, the bar exam instructions for the MBE tell you that you are to assume that every torts question takes place in a Comparative Negligence jurisdiction, so no contributory negligence stuff.




Torts hypo of the day:

Esteban parked his BMW convertible on a steep hill on California Avenue in San Francisco.  He then walked a few blocks to the China Grill to meet a few friends for lunch.  While Esteban was at the restaurant, his car rolled down the hill and struck Tiffany as she was walking across the street.  Tiffany suffered a fractured leg in the accident.

Tiffany sued Esteban to recover damages for her injury.  At trial, Tiffany merely introduced evidence that Esteban parked his car on California Avenue and the vehicle rolled down the street striking her.  However, Tiffany did not present any evidence showing negligence on the part of Esteban.

At the conclusion of the plaintiff's case-in-chief, both parties move for a directed verdict.  The court should


(A) grant plaintiff's motion, because it is more probable than not that defendant was negligent in allowing his car to roll down the street
(B) grant the defendant's motion, because plaintiff did not present any evidence showing negligence on the part of the defendant
(C) deny both motions, because under the circumstances the jury may infer negligence on the part of the defendant
(D) deny the plaintiff's motion, but allow the defendant to present rebuttal evidence before ruling on the defendant's motion


Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 16, 2007, 08:47:42 PM
B.  Though it feels like a trap.



lol 

now you know you can't just leave it at B. You gotta say WHY B?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 16, 2007, 08:52:07 PM
C.  I think it can be inferred.  Res ipsa loquitur, right?  Properly parked cars don't just roll down hills. Let the jury weigh the evidence. Alternatively, B.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on May 16, 2007, 09:00:09 PM
I feel dumb reading these questions  :(
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: shaz on May 16, 2007, 09:37:06 PM
I got the first K question right. I actually thought it was easy. I feel like such a law nerd.

I always think of FOB S/B as:

FOB S = Free shipping for the S.
Which means B paid for shipping.
So the truck is B's agent.
So once S delivers to the truck (B's agent), his liability shifts. 
[my own personal mailbox rule!]   ;)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Sparkz1920 on May 16, 2007, 10:07:08 PM
I wanna say B

Probably loud n wrong though

I wanna say B because the plaintiff proved no negligence on the defendants part
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: «ě» on May 17, 2007, 02:02:27 AM
C.  I think it can be inferred.  Res ipsa loquitur, right?  Properly parked cars don't just roll down hills. Let the jury weigh the evidence. Alternatively, B.

Hmm, well it could be a technical problem with the car, such as the parking break failing - in which case I can't really see how you consider it negligence if he wasn't aware of the problem, or if the problem occured while he wasn't in the car.

From a complete lay person perspective, I got a feeling this potentially exculpatory solution would point in the direction of D)... but who knows, not me. My 'logic' is that even though the plaintiff did not prove negligence, a jury would be likely to infer it.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 19, 2007, 04:10:53 PM
C.  I think it can be inferred.  Res ipsa loquitur, right?  Properly parked cars don't just roll down hills. Let the jury weigh the evidence. Alternatively, B.

That's correct. The answer is C. Its a definite case of res ipsa.

For the 0L's, res ipsa loquitur is latin for "the thing speaks for itself" - its a tort law doctrine that allows a jury to infer negligence where you don't quite have all the pieces to the puzzle in situations where negligence must have happened because things ordinarily wouldn't have ended up how they did unless somebody was negligenct - like the car rolling down the hill.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: «ě» on May 19, 2007, 05:10:11 PM
So, even if it was caused by a technical problem with the car, it would still be considered negligence?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 19, 2007, 07:28:22 PM
w00t!  Post a crim question...I had an awful prof for that and will probably have to learn from scratch.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 19, 2007, 07:30:38 PM
So, even if it was caused by a technical problem with the car, it would still be considered negligence?

If it helps, think about who's the least-cost avoider on whom you would like to place the damages arising from the incident: the car owner who should get his brakes checked regularly or the lady innocently and legally crossing the street?  If someone has to pay, I think common sense would say the driver.

But more generally, nothing is ever a certainty in law.  That's why we have judges and juries...to use their expertise (or lack thereof) to fill in the gaps/reconcile conflict facts.  The default rule is to send the case to the jury and let them weigh everything.

ETA: And if it was a design malfunction with the car, then the driver could ask the judge to join the car company, or he could sue the company in a separate action.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: «ě» on May 19, 2007, 08:29:35 PM
If it helps, think about who's the least-cost avoider on whom you would like to place the damages arising from the incident: the car owner who should get his brakes checked regularly or the lady innocently and legally crossing the street?  If someone has to pay, I think common sense would say the driver.

Indeed, and if it's wear and tear defect that does it, so it should be. If it's a production fault, I would assume it is possible to hold the seller / producer liable in some way?

Quote
But more generally, nothing is ever a certainty in law.  That's why we have judges and juries...to use their expertise (or lack thereof) to fill in the gaps/reconcile conflict facts.  The default rule is to send the case to the jury and let them weigh everything.

True, and I suppose if defect was an issue it'd be in the question anyway. I expect that vehicle controls are standard procedure after accidents like this.

Quote
ETA: And if it was a design malfunction with the car, then the driver could ask the judge to join the car company, or he could sue the company in a separate action.

No, I didn't read the entire answer before replying :p
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 19, 2007, 08:42:35 PM
I expect that vehicle controls are standard procedure after accidents like this.

What do you mean by "vehicle controls"?  If you're talking about a company taking action to correct the defect after an accident, evidence of that would probably be barred in court (as a subsequent remedial measure).
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: LBJFan on May 20, 2007, 01:02:56 AM
I had Evidence the first day, then property and today (Saturday) I had Con Law

good grief.

I did good on the evidence portion because I just took that class last fall 8)

property ... about 45%  ;D

But today in Con law I TOTALLY bombed. I didn't realize that Con law on the bar was largely topics that were taught in federal courts class which, of course, I didn't take and first amendment, which I didn't take either. I randomly knew the establishment clause stuff but the rest...not a chance. I naively thought con law would be about...what I learned in con law. But...not so much.

Anyway...good luck to all. Torts tomorrow, Fun times.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: «ě» on May 20, 2007, 06:20:29 AM
I expect that vehicle controls are standard procedure after accidents like this.

What do you mean by "vehicle controls"?  If you're talking about a company taking action to correct the defect after an accident, evidence of that would probably be barred in court (as a subsequent remedial measure).

Controls probably bad word, inspected perhaps better? In such as if a car rolls over me, it would likely get inspected whether there was some defect on the car. And I would assume the car owner would like to get this inspected as well, to avoid taking the blame himself
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 20, 2007, 07:02:24 AM
I had Evidence the first day, then property and today (Saturday) I had Con Law

good grief.

I did good on the evidence portion because I just took that class last fall 8)

property ... about 45%  ;D

But today in Con law I TOTALLY bombed. I didn't realize that Con law on the bar was largely topics that were taught in federal courts class which, of course, I didn't take and first amendment, which I didn't take either. I randomly knew the establishment clause stuff but the rest...not a chance. I naively thought con law would be about...what I learned in con law. But...not so much.

Anyway...good luck to all. Torts tomorrow, Fun times.

We didn't do First Amendment in my con law class :-\.  13 classes on equal protection.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on May 20, 2007, 08:22:06 AM
So, even if it was caused by a technical problem with the car, it would still be considered negligence?
The question gives the procedural point in the trial: "At the conclusion of the plaintiff's case-in-chief...". The plaintiff wants to have the defendant found liable, and won't be presenting information that helps the defendant. It would be up to the defendant to bring up issues such as a technical problem.

My last day was evidence. That was a painful day. I missed torts due to a final; I'll be making up that class next week.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on May 20, 2007, 01:41:09 PM
RIL was one of the easier tort questions for me to answer.  Once you learn the doctrine, it is easy to see it set up in a fact pattern.  All of the 0Ls and other onlookers, don't freak out.  If you take PMBR you should be fine.  I thought it was very helpful in terms of getting you accustomed to studying all day, and letting me know where my weak areas are on the multistate.  I'm glad  I invested the $620.00.


C.  I think it can be inferred.  Res ipsa loquitur, right?  Properly parked cars don't just roll down hills. Let the jury weigh the evidence. Alternatively, B.

That's correct. The answer is C. Its a definite case of res ipsa.

For the 0L's, res ipsa loquitur is latin for "the thing speaks for itself" - its a tort law doctrine that allows a jury to infer negligence where you don't quite have all the pieces to the puzzle in situations where negligence must have happened because things ordinarily wouldn't have ended up how they did unless somebody was negligenct - like the car rolling down the hill.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 20, 2007, 10:30:14 PM
RIL was one of the easier tort questions for me to answer.  Once you learn the doctrine, it is easy to see it set up in a fact pattern.  All of the 0Ls and other onlookers, don't freak out.  If you take PMBR you should be fine.  I thought it was very helpful in terms of getting you accustomed to studying all day, and letting me know where my weak areas are on the multistate.  I'm glad  I invested the $620.00.




No doubt. I'm glad I'm a rep!  lol


w00t!  Post a crim question...I had an awful prof for that and will probably have to learn from scratch.


Alright MBE Whiz Kid, if you can get this one then you are the man.  This goes for the rest of you too (besides SMU and Slacker of course)


Belle and Ramirez were unemployed basket weavers who had recently been terminated from their jobs.  As they were commiserating their misfortune, Belle thought of a great "get rich quick" scheme to defraud his insurance company.  Belle told Ramirez that he was insured under a State Farm policy covering personal injuries.  He suggested that Ramirez shoot him in the arm in a fake robbery attempt to recover damages for his injury.  In this jurisdiction it is a felony to file a false insurance claim.

As part of their scheme, Ramirez went to Belle's home one evening with a loaded pistol. They were standing together in the kitchen discussing how to best implement their plan.  Finally, Belle told Ramirez to shoot him in the arm and then flee from the residence.  After being shot, Belle planned to call 911 and have an ambulance transport him to the hospital where he would be treated for his wound.  Following Belle's instruction, Ramirez proceeded to shoot Belle in the arm.  Thereupon, Belle telephoned 911 to report the shooting and requested an ambulance immediately be sent to his home.

Believing that Belle only suffered a superficial arm wound, Ramirez drove home after the shooting. The bullet, however, severed an artery and Belle began to bleed quite profusely.  Before the ambulance arrived, Belle lost consciousness from the loss of blood and passed out on the kitchen floor.  When the paramedics arrived at Belle's home, they were unable to revive him and he was pronounced dead at the scene.

Which of the following is the most serious crime for which Ramirez should be found guilty?

(A) Felony-murder
(B) Intent to inflict serious bodily injury murder
(C) Assault with a deadly weapon
(D) Involuntary manslaughter

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 20, 2007, 10:36:29 PM
Hm.  Well I'm going to guess that he doesn't have the mens rea for felony murder.  But he did intend to shoot Belle, so I'm ruling out D too.  So I guess the question is how serious was the arm shooting.  Pretty serious, obviously, and the question asks for the most serious crime, so I'm going to say B.  Alternatively, D.  Then C.  Then A. 


ETA: Now that I think about it, I've never heard of B, so I bet it's D, since that might involve not having the mens rea for murder, yet negligently/recklessly inflicting bodily injury that could lead to death.  So I change my mind and say D.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 20, 2007, 10:38:31 PM
Hm.  Well I'm going to guess that he doesn't have the mens rea for felony murder. 

To that extent, one could argue he doesn't have the mens rea for murder period.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 20, 2007, 10:45:10 PM
Hm.  Well I'm going to guess that he doesn't have the mens rea for felony murder. 

To that extent, one could argue he doesn't have the mens rea for murder period.

True.  Another reason for me to change my mind (see the above edit).
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 20, 2007, 10:49:06 PM
But oh wait!  The insurance scheme.  I forgot about that.  Hmmmm.  That seems too obvious though.  I bet there's some rule about it being a serious felony, which this is not.  I'm sticking with D.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 20, 2007, 10:55:25 PM
Hm.  Well I'm going to guess that he doesn't have the mens rea for felony murder.  But he did intend to shoot Belle, so I'm ruling out D too.  So I guess the question is how serious was the arm shooting.  Pretty serious, obviously, and the question asks for the most serious crime, so I'm going to say B.  Alternatively, D.  Then C.  Then A. 


ETA: Now that I think about it, I've never heard of B, so I bet it's D, since that might involve not having the mens rea for murder, yet negligently/recklessly inflicting bodily injury that could lead to death.  So I change my mind and say D.

Oh, you jedi mind tricked yourself out of the right answer.  Use the force, luke.  It is strong with you.  The answer was B.

But oh wait!  The insurance scheme.  I forgot about that.  Hmmmm.  That seems too obvious though.  I bet there's some rule about it being a serious felony, which this is not.  I'm sticking with D.

They say that this is a "classic" MBE question that is designed to set you up for Felony-Murder since they commit this act of murder during the commission of a felony.  However, the "trick" is that the felony in question here, the false insurance report, is not malum in se. It's merely malum prohibitum so it doesn't trigger felony-murder like robbery or rape or arson would.

According to the bar examiners, there are 4 types of murder:

1. good old fashioned intentional killing with premeditation or deliberation (aka - malice aforethought)
2. intent to inflict serious bodily injury murder
3. felony-murder
4. depraved heart (aka reckless killing) murder

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on May 20, 2007, 10:59:03 PM
w00t i got it right!!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 20, 2007, 11:01:06 PM
Damnit!  Fortunately on the real thing, I hopefully won't have time to overanalyze.  Thankfully, I usually do best on standardized tests when I'm pressed for time (and don't have to draw silly diagrams).
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 20, 2007, 11:03:30 PM
I know what you mean. Some of these joints that I got right it was because I didn't have time to think too hard and just went with the gut reaction.  That really helps out with the evidence questions.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on May 20, 2007, 11:11:40 PM
I missed this one during the exam. >:(  I fell for the trick.

Hm.  Well I'm going to guess that he doesn't have the mens rea for felony murder.  But he did intend to shoot Belle, so I'm ruling out D too.  So I guess the question is how serious was the arm shooting.  Pretty serious, obviously, and the question asks for the most serious crime, so I'm going to say B.  Alternatively, D.  Then C.  Then A. 


ETA: Now that I think about it, I've never heard of B, so I bet it's D, since that might involve not having the mens rea for murder, yet negligently/recklessly inflicting bodily injury that could lead to death.  So I change my mind and say D.

Oh, you jedi mind tricked yourself out of the right answer.  Use the force, luke.  It is strong with you.  The answer was B.

But oh wait!  The insurance scheme.  I forgot about that.  Hmmmm.  That seems too obvious though.  I bet there's some rule about it being a serious felony, which this is not.  I'm sticking with D.

They say that this is a "classic" MBE question that is designed to set you up for Felony-Murder since they commit this act of murder during the commission of a felony.  However, the "trick" is that the felony in question here, the false insurance report, is not malum in se. It's merely malum prohibitum so it doesn't trigger felony-murder like robbery or rape or arson would.

According to the bar examiners, there are 4 types of murder:

1. good old fashioned intentional killing with premeditation or deliberation (aka - malice aforethought)
2. intent to inflict serious bodily injury murder
3. felony-murder
4. depraved heart (aka reckless killing) murder


Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 20, 2007, 11:27:12 PM
I missed this one during the exam. >:(  I fell for the trick.

Hm.  Well I'm going to guess that he doesn't have the mens rea for felony murder.  But he did intend to shoot Belle, so I'm ruling out D too.  So I guess the question is how serious was the arm shooting.  Pretty serious, obviously, and the question asks for the most serious crime, so I'm going to say B.  Alternatively, D.  Then C.  Then A. 


ETA: Now that I think about it, I've never heard of B, so I bet it's D, since that might involve not having the mens rea for murder, yet negligently/recklessly inflicting bodily injury that could lead to death.  So I change my mind and say D.

Oh, you jedi mind tricked yourself out of the right answer.  Use the force, luke.  It is strong with you.  The answer was B.

But oh wait!  The insurance scheme.  I forgot about that.  Hmmmm.  That seems too obvious though.  I bet there's some rule about it being a serious felony, which this is not.  I'm sticking with D.

They say that this is a "classic" MBE question that is designed to set you up for Felony-Murder since they commit this act of murder during the commission of a felony.  However, the "trick" is that the felony in question here, the false insurance report, is not malum in se. It's merely malum prohibitum so it doesn't trigger felony-murder like robbery or rape or arson would.

According to the bar examiners, there are 4 types of murder:

1. good old fashioned intentional killing with premeditation or deliberation (aka - malice aforethought)
2. intent to inflict serious bodily injury murder
3. felony-murder
4. depraved heart (aka reckless killing) murder




Me too    :P
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: «ě» on May 21, 2007, 06:26:31 AM
Hum...

Quote
D. Involuntary manslaughter. EXPLANATION: "D" is the correct answer.

According to Ohio Northern University... although shouldn't trust those mid west people I guess :p
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: jer on May 21, 2007, 07:29:32 AM
tag so i can read this thread again in 3 yrs!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Tony Montana on May 21, 2007, 07:45:29 AM
Hum...

Quote
D. Involuntary manslaughter. EXPLANATION: "D" is the correct answer.

According to Ohio Northern University... although shouldn't trust those mid west people I guess :p

Don't forget the question asked: "Which of the following is the most serious crime for which Ramirez should be found guilty?"

Maybe if the question asked for the least, then IM would be tcr.

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: «ě» on May 21, 2007, 09:05:31 AM
Well, that wasn't my answer, it was the answer I took from ONU's website. That being said, I'm not sure if the answer came from a professor/teachers answer key or a students suggestion. I assume it must have been the latter.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Tony Montana on May 21, 2007, 09:13:41 AM
Well, that wasn't my answer, it was the answer I took from ONU's website. That being said, I'm not sure if the answer came from a professor/teachers answer key or a students suggestion. I assume it must have been the latter.

Get your sh!t together, son.  You know folks on BLSD are too much on top of things  ;)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: «ě» on May 21, 2007, 09:22:12 AM
That's what I'm saying! Hey, don't shoot the mess..eh, googler :(
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Tony Montana on May 21, 2007, 09:30:36 AM
 :P  ;D
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 21, 2007, 01:42:42 PM
Hum...

Quote
D. Involuntary manslaughter. EXPLANATION: "D" is the correct answer.

According to Ohio Northern University... although shouldn't trust those mid west people I guess :p

Don't forget the question asked: "Which of the following is the most serious crime for which Ramirez should be found guilty?"

Maybe if the question asked for the least, then IM would be tcr.



Exactly! 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on May 22, 2007, 03:13:30 AM
I know what you mean. Some of these joints that I got right it was because I didn't have time to think too hard and just went with the gut reaction.  That really helps out with the evidence questions.
That helped me also on evidence, except for hearsay. I got hammered on hearsay.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Sparkz1920 on May 22, 2007, 08:59:04 AM
RIL was one of the easier tort questions for me to answer.  Once you learn the doctrine, it is easy to see it set up in a fact pattern.  All of the 0Ls and other onlookers, don't freak out.  If you take PMBR you should be fine.  I thought it was very helpful in terms of getting you accustomed to studying all day, and letting me know where my weak areas are on the multistate.  I'm glad  I invested the $620.00.




No doubt. I'm glad I'm a rep!  lol


w00t!  Post a crim question...I had an awful prof for that and will probably have to learn from scratch.


Alright MBE Whiz Kid, if you can get this one then you are the man.  This goes for the rest of you too (besides SMU and Slacker of course)


Belle and Ramirez were unemployed basket weavers who had recently been terminated from their jobs.  As they were commiserating their misfortune, Belle thought of a great "get rich quick" scheme to defraud his insurance company.  Belle told Ramirez that he was insured under a State Farm policy covering personal injuries.  He suggested that Ramirez shoot him in the arm in a fake robbery attempt to recover damages for his injury.  In this jurisdiction it is a felony to file a false insurance claim.

As part of their scheme, Ramirez went to Belle's home one evening with a loaded pistol. They were standing together in the kitchen discussing how to best implement their plan.  Finally, Belle told Ramirez to shoot him in the arm and then flee from the residence.  After being shot, Belle planned to call 911 and have an ambulance transport him to the hospital where he would be treated for his wound.  Following Belle's instruction, Ramirez proceeded to shoot Belle in the arm.  Thereupon, Belle telephoned 911 to report the shooting and requested an ambulance immediately be sent to his home.

Believing that Belle only suffered a superficial arm wound, Ramirez drove home after the shooting. The bullet, however, severed an artery and Belle began to bleed quite profusely.  Before the ambulance arrived, Belle lost consciousness from the loss of blood and passed out on the kitchen floor.  When the paramedics arrived at Belle's home, they were unable to revive him and he was pronounced dead at the scene.

Which of the following is the most serious crime for which Ramirez should be found guilty?

(A) Felony-murder
(B) Intent to inflict serious bodily injury murder
(C) Assault with a deadly weapon
(D) Involuntary manslaughter




Hmmmm, Im leaning towards D but im gonna go with A on this one. Im going to go with A on this one because the crime was commited in the act of a felony and because the victim dided accidently in the course of a felony, which can increase it from manslaughter to murder
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Tony Montana on May 22, 2007, 10:13:15 AM
The Avatar already established that B is tca.

Hm.  Well I'm going to guess that he doesn't have the mens rea for felony murder.  But he did intend to shoot Belle, so I'm ruling out D too.  So I guess the question is how serious was the arm shooting.  Pretty serious, obviously, and the question asks for the most serious crime, so I'm going to say B.  Alternatively, D.  Then C.  Then A. 


ETA: Now that I think about it, I've never heard of B, so I bet it's D, since that might involve not having the mens rea for murder, yet negligently/recklessly inflicting bodily injury that could lead to death.  So I change my mind and say D.

Oh, you jedi mind tricked yourself out of the right answer.  Use the force, luke.  It is strong with you.  The answer was B.

But oh wait!  The insurance scheme.  I forgot about that.  Hmmmm.  That seems too obvious though.  I bet there's some rule about it being a serious felony, which this is not.  I'm sticking with D.

They say that this is a "classic" MBE question that is designed to set you up for Felony-Murder since they commit this act of murder during the commission of a felony.  However, the "trick" is that the felony in question here, the false insurance report, is not malum in se. It's merely malum prohibitum so it doesn't trigger felony-murder like robbery or rape or arson would.

According to the bar examiners, there are 4 types of murder:

1. good old fashioned intentional killing with premeditation or deliberation (aka - malice aforethought)
2. intent to inflict serious bodily injury murder
3. felony-murder
4. depraved heart (aka reckless killing) murder


Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: «ě» on May 22, 2007, 10:48:09 AM
But it also looks like he deleted that post to allow people to guess :p
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Tony Montana on May 22, 2007, 10:54:08 AM
But it also looks like he deleted that post to allow people to guess :p

How could he have deleted it when I just copied that post from page 8 of this thread ???  You really need to get your sh!t together, son.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: «ě» on May 22, 2007, 10:59:54 AM
Right, obviously I missed that when looking back.

Any reason you have to be a cuntface instead of just saying so? Need to overcompensate for something perhaps?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Tony Montana on May 22, 2007, 11:05:57 AM
Lol @ "cuntface."  Just busting your chops.  Although, it's good practice to do a little research before making assertions... It prevents people from being a "cuntface" :D to you.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: «ě» on May 22, 2007, 11:07:25 AM
Cuntface is a good word! I did do research, for the same reason as you probably, it seemed a bit weird to answer a question after the answer had been given :p And obviously, like Sparkz I missed that part ;)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Tony Montana on May 22, 2007, 11:13:40 AM
Obviously, my Norwegian brethren, obviously  ;)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on May 22, 2007, 03:29:31 PM
I started what is called the "general bar review" course today . . . BarBri.

It was a room of at least 250-300 people, listening to a guy talk about evidence at a podium for 3 hours while filling in the blanks.

It seemed like it was too easy.  Maybe it was because I did the PMBR in evidence last week.  Who knows? I'll update my opinion later on in the week, when we get to Contracts.  Or, Oil and Gas next week.

At any rate, I do know that doing that IS NOT enough work to pass the bar.  I also don't feel like the BarBri study schedule is enough either.

Sands, what do you think?  :-\
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 22, 2007, 03:36:32 PM
What are the downsides to getting the iPod?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 22, 2007, 04:08:22 PM
I started what is called the "general bar review" course today . . . BarBri.

It was a room of at least 250-300 people, listening to a guy talk about evidence at a podium for 3 hours while filling in the blanks.

It seemed like it was too easy.  Maybe it was because I did the PMBR in evidence last week.  Who knows? I'll update my opinion later on in the week, when we get to Contracts.  Or, Oil and Gas next week.

At any rate, I do know that doing that IS NOT enough work to pass the bar.  I also don't feel like the BarBri study schedule is enough either.

Sands, what do you think?  :-\


Day 2 of BarBri today.  Crim Pro. Yesterday was Crim Law.

Fortunately I had a kick-ass former SCOTUS Clerk as a professor for Crim Pro so there was nothing that I heard today that was news.  We didn't do the fill in the blanks joint, but I know what you are talking about b/c we did that in BarBri "Early Start" back in February for those few weekends here or there.

What do I think so far?  I think you're right. I think that BarBri capitalizes on the fear of graduating 3L's who need to pass the bar just like Kaplan does pre-laws who are trying to take the LSAT.  They know that you need to prepare, and they know they have the market cornered.  If all you did was BarBri and nothing else, I'm 99.9999999% convinced that you would fail the bar.  And I'm saying this as a BarBri rep for my school.  They are more concerened with getting your money and having you sit through some cookie cutter video tape lecture than they are with making sure you actually pass the bar.

The cat from PMBR I felt was actually giving us real talk about the bar exam. Plus, PMBR's speciatly is, of course, the MBE.  That's what they do.  BarBri covers the MBE for 3 days in July.  If you are seeing MBE questions for the first time in July, then you should be a little concerned.

Having said all of that, I thought the Prof. Whitebread BarBri lectures for Crim both yesterday and today were good.  He went over what you need to know for the bar in terms of Crim law essays and crim pro essays and that's about it.  He mentioned a few topics that are frequently tested on the MBE, but in true BarBri fashion, did not show us the actual test questions.  Which, as you guys have seen in this thread alone, are the type of thing that you need to be familiar with from practice/first hand experience.

Even with the MPRE that we took way back, I thought that BarBri's stuff was superficial.  The lecture extremely glossed over the MPRE stuff and I didn't learn anything from it.  I had to actually do the questions on my own.  Which is ultimately what you have to do anyway.

I think its easy for law students to get lulled into this false sense of security that "if you just go to BarBri then you'll be ok." Which is not true.  You need to put in the work on your own; the irony of which makes you wonder why you need any of these bar prep courses in the first place if it all boils down to doing work on your own anyway at the end of the day... :P  Such is life.

Theoretically speaking, all you needed to do for the LSAT was sit down with some test questions and go over them ad nauseum until they sunk in.  I guess it always helps to have somebody point you in the right direction every now and again along with your personal studies - thus Kaplan, Princeton Review, BarBri, etc.

Just my 2 cents on BarBri.



Right now its pretty layed back - I know it will pick up pretty soon. It's hard for me to really buckle down before graduation but after graduation this weekend it's on.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on May 23, 2007, 03:28:33 PM
I agree on BarBri...I started today. It's not enough to just attend and fill in the blanks. You need to do more to learn/memorize the material. We're doing torts. After class this morning, I started filling in my own flash cards based on the lecture. I'm not sure if that's good, or if that's too much effort for the time it's taking. In any case, I want to be more active about what I'm doing, and re-writing tends to help things sink in in a way that typing or reading do not.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: jd06 on May 23, 2007, 03:39:32 PM
Took barbri last summer.  Agree that many of the lecturers (Whitebread in particular) gave relatively short shrift to the substantive material.  However, while I didn't rely heavily on the in-class outlines, I did find that the Conviser Mini-Review did a good job of covering the substantive law you need to know for the essay portion of the exam.  Remember, the bar exam is much more "broad brush" than your law school exam.  As to the MBE's, PMBR was priceless.  By the time I got the exam, having worked through both PMBR books, I felt like I'd already seen about half the bar exam questions. 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on May 23, 2007, 08:35:05 PM
jd06 - any helpful prep tips?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on May 27, 2007, 11:39:13 PM
Im finding that if you are doing the 50 pmbr questions per day as suggested, it helps A LOT to actually write out the explanation  ( in short form) of the questions that you miss, or got right only because of a lucky guess.  They tell you to spend three hours doing the questions and going over the answers, and with writing out the ones I got wrong it took me 2 hours 57 minutes. For me, just reading over the answers and highlighting wasn't good enough.  It helped in reinforcing the questions I got right, but did nothing to keep me from making the same mistakes.

I think this is very beneficial . . . anything active helps! 

How's everyone else's review going?


I agree on BarBri...I started today. It's not enough to just attend and fill in the blanks. You need to do more to learn/memorize the material. We're doing torts. After class this morning, I started filling in my own flash cards based on the lecture. I'm not sure if that's good, or if that's too much effort for the time it's taking. In any case, I want to be more active about what I'm doing, and re-writing tends to help things sink in in a way that typing or reading do not.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 29, 2007, 06:51:40 PM
Im finding that if you are doing the 50 pmbr questions per day as suggested, it helps A LOT to actually write out the explanation  ( in short form) of the questions that you miss, or got right only because of a lucky guess.  They tell you to spend three hours doing the questions and going over the answers, and with writing out the ones I got wrong it took me 2 hours 57 minutes. For me, just reading over the answers and highlighting wasn't good enough.  It helped in reinforcing the questions I got right, but did nothing to keep me from making the same mistakes.

I think this is very beneficial . . . anything active helps! 

How's everyone else's review going?


I agree on BarBri...I started today. It's not enough to just attend and fill in the blanks. You need to do more to learn/memorize the material. We're doing torts. After class this morning, I started filling in my own flash cards based on the lecture. I'm not sure if that's good, or if that's too much effort for the time it's taking. In any case, I want to be more active about what I'm doing, and re-writing tends to help things sink in in a way that typing or reading do not.

Just did the first full day of BarBri in the morning, review barbri topic after lunch and then do the 50 MBE/PMBR questions after that and reviewed all of them.  Started at 9am, just ended around 8pm.  Me and my study partner are just getting started. I know that time will increase as we go along.

I think you're right about writing the stuff out.  It helps to reinforce it. I found myself missing the same question from the first week all over again today b/c I didn't do that.  Gotta make this stuff stick.  This is the biggest closed book exam ever.  Uhg. :P
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: iman on May 30, 2007, 12:23:11 PM
hey, i got this via email. thought y'all might be interested. good luck!

Below is information on a free supplemental bar tutorial offered by Practicing Attorneys for Law Students (PALS) for recent law school graduates studying for the New York Bar Exam. The Supplemental Bar Tutorial focuses on the writing component of the bar exam, where students often lose what Professor Lakin considers "easy points" because the traditional bar courses do not focus on this area.

The Practicing Attorneys for Law Students Program, Inc.
PALS®
SUMMER 2007 SUPPLEMENTAL BAR TUTORIAL*

Dates & Times:
Friday, June 8, 2007 2 p.m. - 5 p.m.
Friday, June 15, 2007 2:30 p.m. – 5:30 p.m. (Note later time)
Friday, June 22, 2007 2 p.m. - 5 p.m.
Friday, July 6, 2007 2 p.m. - 5 p.m.
Place: Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom
(4 Times Square, 42nd Street & Broadway, New York City, 37th Floor)

Lecturer: Professor Leonard Lakin
(Professor Lakin has successfully taught the PALS Supplemental Bar Tutorial for several years. Professor Lakin was formerly associated with the New York Board of Law Examiners where he participated in drafting of Bar Exam essay questions and model answers. He also participated in drafting New York multiple choice questions. Professor Lakin has lectured for BAR/BRI Bar Review for many years. He has also graded thousands of Bar Exam essays.)

R.S.V.P. www.palsprogram.org By June 1, 2007
Requirements:
1. Intend to sit for the July 2007 New York State Bar Exam
2. Must be enrolled in full-time Bar Review Course (e.g. Pieper, BAR/BRI)
3. Students must commit to attending ALL FOUR SESSIONS
3. MUST RSVP NO LATER THAN June 1, 2007 at www.palsprogram.org

*This program is a supplemental tutorial. It is intended for law students who have graduated and who will sit for the New York State Bar exam in July 2007. Registration is limited and will be on a first come, first served basis.


Please direct any questions to info@palsprogram.org or call (212) 730- PALS
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 31, 2007, 09:06:35 PM
OK SMU, today was the first official official day.  My study partner and I have been gettin it in for the past couple days, but today was the first serious day.  When I say serious, I'm talking 50 PMBR questions, plus writing an essay from the BarBri book, plus going over and reviewing today's BarBri lecture, on top of going to BarBri in the morning of course.   :P

Whoever gets this Crim question correct really paid attention during Crim Law and my hat goes off to you:


Junior was playing cards with a group of friends at their weekly poker game. Earlier in the evening, Kermit, one of the players, handed Junior a gun and told him it was unloaded.  As a joke, Junior pointed the gun at Malcom [yes they spelled Malcom wrong] and pulled the trigger.  Unknown to Junior, the gun was loaded and it discharged.  The bullet grazed Malcom's shoulder, slightly wounding him.

Junior was charged with assault with intent to kill.  In this jurisdiction battery is a lesser included offense of assault.  At trial, Junior requested that the court instruct the jury if his mistake was honest, whether reasonable or unreasonable, it would be a valid defense to assault and the lesser included offense of battery.  Conversely, the prosecution wanted the court to instruct the jury that in order for the defendant's mistake to be a valid defense for either crime, it must be reasonable.

Regarding propriety of the jury instructions, which of the following statements is most accurate?

(A) Defendant is correct with respect to assault and the prosecution is correct with respect to battery.
(B) Defendant is correct with respect to battery and the prosecution is correct with respect to assault.
(C) Prosecution is correct with respect to both the battery and assault charges.
(D) Defendant is correct with respect to both the battery and assault charges.



Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 31, 2007, 09:30:40 PM
Hmm.  Since battery is a lesser included offense, it can't be A.  I'm going to say C, since reasonableness should always be a requirement.  Alternatively, D, since a mistake is a mistake and negates the requisite intent.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 01, 2007, 06:08:01 AM
Hmm.  Since battery is a lesser included offense, it can't be A.  I'm going to say C, since reasonableness should always be a requirement.  Alternatively, D, since a mistake is a mistake and negates the requisite intent.

No other takers out there?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: «ě» on June 01, 2007, 08:36:07 AM
B)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Tony Montana on June 01, 2007, 08:55:26 AM
This one is tough.  I will go with C, alternatively D.  Although reasonableness is a requirement, intentional infliction is explicitly stated in the rule for assault/battery. Kermit, handed the defendant a gun and told him it was unloaded.  So, when the defendant pointed the gun at Malcolm and pulled the trigger, he had no intent to inflict harm.

That said, if it is unreasonable to assume that a gun is unloaded without checking it, then intent should be assumed by action.  That is why I'm leaning more to C as tcr.
  
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: 2Lacoste on June 01, 2007, 09:26:01 AM
I never went to crim but lemme see: mistake of law or fact, general or specific intent...mreh.  I'd say C.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 01, 2007, 06:19:18 PM
Well you all had the right issues:  General Intent crimes v. Specific intent crimes coupled with mistake of fact and mistake of law.

General Intent Crime:  Battery
Specific Intent Crime: Assault (which is what cat is charged with here)

The Mens Rea in General Intent Crimes (Involuntary Manslaughter, Battery, etc) can only be negated by reasonable mistakes of fact, thus the Prosecutor is right about the Battery charge and the Battery charge only.

The Mens Reas in Specific Intent Crimes can be negated by either reasonable or unreasonable mistakes of fact, thus the Defendant is right about applying this standard to the Assault charge but not to the Battery charge.  Unreasonable mistakes of fact won't get him off for battery.

Therefore, the answer combining the two correct answers is A.


Maybe it's just me, but that's a lot to think about in 1.8 minutes.
 :P
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Tony Montana on June 02, 2007, 06:14:35 AM
Well you all had the right issues:  General Intent crimes v. Specific intent crimes coupled with mistake of fact and mistake of law.

General Intent Crime:  Battery
Specific Intent Crime: Assault (which is what cat is charged with here)

The Mens Rea in General Intent Crimes (Involuntary Manslaughter, Battery, etc) can only be negated by reasonable mistakes of fact, thus the Prosecutor is right about the Battery charge and the Battery charge only.

The Mens Reas in Specific Intent Crimes can be negated by either reasonable or unreasonable mistakes of fact, thus the Defendant is right about applying this standard to the Assault charge but not to the Battery charge.  Unreasonable mistakes of fact won't get him off for battery.

Therefore, the answer combining the two correct answers is A.


Maybe it's just me, but that's a lot to think about in 1.8 minutes.
 :P

I'm not surprised.  Next time, I think I will at least take a course in the subject matter before I try to figure out the more nuance question(s)  ;)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 02, 2007, 08:07:20 AM
Well you all had the right issues:  General Intent crimes v. Specific intent crimes coupled with mistake of fact and mistake of law.

General Intent Crime:  Battery
Specific Intent Crime: Assault (which is what cat is charged with here)

The Mens Rea in General Intent Crimes (Involuntary Manslaughter, Battery, etc) can only be negated by reasonable mistakes of fact, thus the Prosecutor is right about the Battery charge and the Battery charge only.

The Mens Reas in Specific Intent Crimes can be negated by either reasonable or unreasonable mistakes of fact, thus the Defendant is right about applying this standard to the Assault charge but not to the Battery charge.  Unreasonable mistakes of fact won't get him off for battery.

Therefore, the answer combining the two correct answers is A.


Maybe it's just me, but that's a lot to think about in 1.8 minutes.
 :P

Wait wait wait.  But if batter is a lesser included offense, don't you have to meet the requirements of that in order to be charged with assault.  Actually, I think I'm thinking of double jeopardy with this lesser included offense stuff.  Still, it makes sense in a logical criminal schema.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: iman on June 02, 2007, 10:40:58 PM
yay! i got it! i know i didn't post it. but no one else said a and i didn't want to look stupid. sad i know. i really liked crim.   :)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Rudy Huckleberry on June 03, 2007, 08:43:12 PM
I think I will like Crim too, Iman. I'm so excited to take it! I loved the death penalty class so Crim should be great great great.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 05, 2007, 07:54:45 PM
yay! i got it! i know i didn't post it. but no one else said a and i didn't want to look stupid. sad i know. i really liked crim.   :)

Sometimes you just gotta go for it and trust your gut.  :)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: LBJFan on June 06, 2007, 10:37:47 AM
Just wondering ...

Is anyone else getting their butts kicked by the "Advanced Drills"??

I feel good about myself during the intermediates...then I go to the advanced and I start cursing all the trickery!!!! I'm glad they stated that all the questions on the bar won't be that difficult.

Anyway...Evidence awaits...fun times.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on June 06, 2007, 05:57:02 PM
I've left the barbri questions alone for now. I am doing PMBR . . . I feel like I learn more from doing those questions.  The barbri explanations of the answers aren't that helpful to me.

I did some of the barbri drills in the beginning, but felt like they were too time consuming for a small benefit.  But that's just me.  :-\

Just wondering ...

Is anyone else getting their butts kicked by the "Advanced Drills"??

I feel good about myself during the intermediates...then I go to the advanced and I start cursing all the trickery!!!! I'm glad they stated that all the questions on the bar won't be that difficult.

Anyway...Evidence awaits...fun times.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 06, 2007, 08:51:50 PM
That seems to be the general consensus that BarBri questions are harder and more involved than the actual Bar exam questions. BarBri in general is just a bit much. As we've all seen by now, there's no way to get through all the mess that BarBri throws at you. They are trying to hit you with everything and the kitchen sink.  My beef with BarBri is that they have you reviewing everything that will be on the bar AND everything that will not be on the bar, and there really is not much guidance as to the distinction between the two given by them.  PMBR is straight to the point.  These are the 6 MBE subjects, these are the ways that the 6 subjects are tested on the Bar.  Do these questions over and over until you become familiar with all the ways that the 6 subjects are tested and that's pretty much that.  It's still a mother to try to get through both books, but at least you know where you stand objectively.  eg. you're getting X questions out of 50 correct.

I have friends are who are going through and actually trying to do all this raw memorization of BarBri materials. If you talk to people who have passed (and more importantly to people who have failed and know why they failed) you can get a pretty good idea as to what is necessary and what is extra fat that can be trimmed.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on June 06, 2007, 09:33:49 PM
Exactly.

If you have been doing the PMBR questions, and you listen when BarBri reviews what they say you need to know for the bar exam, they line up quite nicely.  The BarBri questions, when I tried to do them, were not lining up the same way. So I am sticking to the PMBR questions.

That seems to be the general consensus that BarBri questions are harder and more involved than the actual Bar exam questions. BarBri in general is just a bit much. As we've all seen by now, there's no way to get through all the mess that BarBri throws at you. They are trying to hit you with everything and the kitchen sink.  My beef with BarBri is that they have you reviewing everything that will be on the bar AND everything that will not be on the bar, and there really is not much guidance as to the distinction between the two given by them.  PMBR is straight to the point.  These are the 6 MBE subjects, these are the ways that the 6 subjects are tested on the Bar.  Do these questions over and over until you become familiar with all the ways that the 6 subjects are tested and that's pretty much that.  It's still a mother to try to get through both books, but at least you know where you stand objectively.  eg. you're getting X questions out of 50 correct.

I have friends are who are going through and actually trying to do all this raw memorization of BarBri materials. If you talk to people who have passed (and more importantly to people who have failed and know why they failed) you can get a pretty good idea as to what is necessary and what is extra fat that can be trimmed.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 07, 2007, 06:21:18 PM
Advice from a cat who passed the NY bar and scored a scaled score of 162 (157 raw score) on the MBE portion (which is kicking ass and taking names basically).  [For the record, most people score about a 116-118 raw score out of the 200 MBE questions.  If you get a 140 "scaled" MBE score (approx. a 132 raw score out of 200) there is a 90% chance you will pass the NY bar exam]:


"I took the BARBRI Simulated MBE on 01-Jul (24 days before actual exam) and got 70 Qs wrong out of 200, resulting in a RAW MBE score of 130. It also took me on average 1.46 minutes to answer each question. For the MBE itself, on 27-Jul, I got 43 wrong out of 200 resulting in a 157 MBE raw and I estimated my average time per question was 1.125. In my opinion, the BARBRI Simulated MBE is harder than the actual MBE, and it is probably partly designed to scare you into studying more. After the BARBRI Simulated MBE on 01-Jul, I did 2,992 additional practice Qs leading up to the NY bar exam. On average, I did 70 or so Qs a day during the week. On the weekends I usually did double that. At the start, my ultimate goal was 4000 Qs and so I averaged 70 or so Qs per day. I answered each question in less than 1.2 minutes on average. This means that during the week, it took me about 90 minutes to answer 70 questions and maybe 40-90 minutes to go through all of them. As I did more questions, I required less and less time to go over them. Also, later on, the majority of Qs I did were from the released MBEs. These questions are shorter than PMBR or BARBRI, and for some like the 1992 MBE, there are no answer explanations, so I really didn't go over answers, I just checked to see if I got it right or wrong, and made a note of the right answer on my MBE tips outline. I did the 1992 MBE Qs (531 Qs) over a single weekend. In my opinion, in the beginning, your learning comes from reviewing/researching your wrong answers to the Qs. Later on, as you get closer to the exam, the next level of learning comes from exposure to as many Qs as possible. I finished the MBE with 30+ minutes to spare at each session and scored a 157 raw (162 scaled). I attribute this to doing 4000+ Qs much more than to anything else such as reading outlines/etc. I did these because my strategy was to ace the MBE, do OK on everything else, and hopefully pass."

"In my opinion, spend your time on NY Practice as it shows up in the essays and the NY Multiple choice. Corporations, Wills and Family Law will all likely show up on the NY essays in some fashion. Trusts may show up, but not as likely. If you are limited in time, study the highest probability subjects. Don't waste your limited time studying a topic that has a low probability of appearing. I can guarantee you that there will be questions on the exam you will not be able to answer - accept that fact and move on."

"For BARBRI, I really only listened to the lectures. I didn't take many notes since I had someone else's BARBRI outlines from the previous year. I did the first hand-in essay and got a 3. On the second one, I got a 4. I think it was at that point that I decided to create [a list of black letter rules]. I realized that BARBRI essays asked you about a lot of useless crap and creating [my list of rules] confirmed it. Don't get me wrong - BARBRI over-prepares you with this useless crap (My guess is that BARBRI doesn't want people coming back saying 'Hey, you forgot to talk about this and it was on the exam so I want a refund'), but I wanted to focus on the most likely essay topics - ergo [my list of rules]. I did the Simulated Exam at home and never bothered going to Javits [Javits is the testing center in NYC where BarBri hosts the practice bar; also where the NY bar is given]. I left BARBRI on the days they had the simulated essay exams to go study at home. However, this is me. I felt my time was better spent at home doing MBE Qs. If you find the BARBRI stuff useful, by all means do it. Obviously, many people pass the exam following the BARBRI model alone."

"My typical BARBRI weekday while bar studying:
Woke up at 7:30.
Showered.
Ate a banana.
Drove to BARBRI (30 minutes away).
Listened to CD of MBE questions while driving to BARBRI.
Sat through BARBRI with an attention span between 80-90%.
Drove home and listened to MBE CD on the way home.
Ate Lunch
After lunch, I started with PMBR Qs. I would do a set of ten MBE Q, surf the internet for five minutes or so, then go over the answers, and then do something else for a few minutes and then read an outline, etc."

"After each BARBRI class, I probably spent 7-8 quality hours a day studying. You should spend as much time as have available, so long as you're not feeling burned out. Remember, you don't want to have to do this again. When I got tired of studying, I did MCQs, so you can tell I was tired of studying quite often. For each day I studied, I spent about 60% of the time studying for the MBE (PMBR and old MBE exams) by doing Qs, analyzing Qs and reading outlines; 38% on the NY Essays by reading/updating [my list of black letter rules] and reading the BARBRI essays and answers (no, I didn't even try to do them - I just went straight to the answer) and 2% on the NY Multiple choice."

"Finally, as you study for the exam, freaking out is to be expected. Don't panic. Keep a routine, study every day and you should pass. (There were a few people I was sure would fail the NY bar exam based on their performance in law school and THEY passed). If you are spinning your tires while studying, take a break and come back when you feel ready. When I got tired of studying (which was often), I did a set of 10 MBE questions. If you saw how I studied, you would be shocked. I would read an outline for 10-15 minutes, surf the internet or do something for 5 or 10 minutes, do some MBE questions, work on my master outline, screw around some more, and then repeat. Also, I have 3 girls (ages 6, 3 , and 2) who would interrupt me fairly often."

"Practice is extremely important, and probably more important than studying the outlines. But if you give yourself enough time, maybe about 2 months is ideal, you'll have time to learn the law (by reading the outlines for both the MBE and the state law topics, and then practice with as many questions as you can get your hands on. Don't forget to study [your list of black letter rules for the essays] often."

"Everyone says that you learn the most in the final two weeks. I'm not sure if that was the case with me. I felt I learned about the same as every other week leading up to the final two weeks, so don't expect anything magical to happen in the final two weeks. The bottom line is to devote the time to studying and to analyze your mistakes and correct as many as you can in time for the bar. And you need to look at the bar objectively. I did all 3 released MBE exams. I saw that maybe 1 or 2 questions on each exam were on remainders. As I was having difficulty figuring them out, I just gave up on them and moved on to studying something else. The worst thing you can do is spin your tires. I didn't see remainders on the NY essays, and it could only be one or two questions on the MBE, so why bother. It wasn't worth spending a few hours studying them - my time was better spent doing 50 multiple choice Qs in those 2 hrs. Likewise, I knew nothing about Trusts (i think I even missed the BARBRI session on Trusts). I decided not to study them, taking a calculated risk that there was a low likelihood they would appear on the exam (based on looking at past NY Bar exams dating back to 1995). Even if Trusts did appear, I planned to just regurgitate the Trust section in [my list of black letter rules], even if it didn't apply (in hopes that it would at least sound good). Quite frankly, you are better off knowing NY Practice cold (it will help you in both the NY essays and the NY multiple choice) rather than an ancillary topic like Trusts."

"As you get closer to the test day, relax. And make sure to relax the night before. YOU SHOULD NOT STUDY MONDAY AFTERNOON. RELAX and HAVE A GOOD TIME. You will realize the importance of this on
Tuesday when you go in well rested and ready to go."
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Astro on June 07, 2007, 06:54:47 PM
Sands, you start the most useful threads ever.


BAFF
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 07, 2007, 07:52:30 PM
Sands, you start the most useful threads ever.


BAFF


I might be able to say thanks if I knew what BAFF meant.

Are you taking the bar also?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Astro on June 07, 2007, 07:56:34 PM
Sands, you start the most useful threads ever.


BAFF


I might be able to say thanks if I knew what BAFF meant.

Are you taking the bar also?


Jesus Christ.  How have you been on this site for 3+ years and still not figured out what BAFF means?   :D


This is J, by the way.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 07, 2007, 08:01:18 PM
Sands, you start the most useful threads ever.


BAFF


I might be able to say thanks if I knew what BAFF meant.

Are you taking the bar also?


Jesus Christ.  How have you been on this site for 3+ years and still not figured out what BAFF means?   :D


This is J, by the way.


Kid, every other week there's a new friggin acronym created by some random cat. Can't keep up with all this lingo.  Hell, the PWN3D phenom is still going around this piece.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Astro on June 07, 2007, 08:03:53 PM
Sands, you start the most useful threads ever.


BAFF


I might be able to say thanks if I knew what BAFF meant.

Are you taking the bar also?


Jesus Christ.  How have you been on this site for 3+ years and still not figured out what BAFF means?   :D


This is J, by the way.


Kid, every other week there's a new friggin acronym created by some random cat. Can't keep up with all this lingo.  Hell, the PWN3D phenom is still going around this piece.


Dude.  BAFF was the ORIGINAL.  I've been all over this here internets, and I'd never heard of BAFF until I came to LSD.

Basically, BAFF was just some poster who would tag a million threads for later reading (I think this was on XOXO, although they may have posted here as well).  In fact, BAFF almost exclusively tagged -- actual posting was rare.  So, eventually, instead of writing "tag", posters would write "BAFF" in mock homage to the Ultimate Tagger.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 08, 2007, 06:12:35 PM
You need to be LSD historian.  Thanks for the info and thanks for the compliment.  We aim to please.  :) 

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 11, 2007, 07:54:29 PM
Man...is anybody else feeling mad behind?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on June 11, 2007, 08:10:52 PM
Really . . .I don't know how all of this memorizing is supposed to get done.  I am doing as many questions (essay and multiple choice) as I can, but that doesn't leave room for lots of memorizing . . . then, I don't know how much of it will be necessary at the last minute.. . .that last two weeks of cramming that everyone is talking about is frightening me.  I feel like I am learning quite a bit right now, but it still seems like I have a LOOONNNGGG way to go . . . and only about a month and a half left!

Man...is anybody else feeling mad behind?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 11, 2007, 08:15:53 PM
Advice from a cat who passed the NY bar and scored a scaled score of 162 (157 raw score) on the MBE portion (which is kicking ass and taking names basically).  [For the record, most people score about a 116-118 raw score out of the 200 MBE questions.  If you get a 140 "scaled" MBE score (approx. a 132 raw score out of 200) there is a 90% chance you will pass the NY bar exam]:


I just saw this.  Very informative.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 11, 2007, 08:22:11 PM
Really . . .I don't know how all of this memorizing is supposed to get done.  I am doing as many questions (essay and multiple choice) as I can, but that doesn't leave room for lots of memorizing . . . then, I don't know how much of it will be necessary at the last minute.. . .that last two weeks of cramming that everyone is talking about is frightening me.  I feel like I am learning quite a bit right now, but it still seems like I have a LOOONNNGGG way to go . . . and only about a month and a half left!

Man...is anybody else feeling mad behind?


THANK YOU.  I'm sitting here looking at this material like....its just not sticking and there's entirely TOO MUCH of it.  I don't know how this memorizing is supposed to happen either.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on June 11, 2007, 08:30:57 PM
Yes, I pray for everyone who is taking the bar exam this summer, especially the people that I know.

I know a few people who are working 20 hours a week while doing this, and a few people who are moving after barbri but before the bar.  I don't think I could do it. Sadly enough, visiting family is a distraction . . . and no one understands!

And you feel guilty when you take time off because you know you could be learning something. Studying something.  In 18 minutes you could work 10 PMBR practice problems . . . lol.  I have started thinking of my time in 1.8 minute increments.

We should start a "you know you are studying for the bar if . . ." list.

1. If you budget your time in 1.8 minute increments.
2. If you have PMBR CD's constantly in rotation in your CD player in your car.
3. If you are spending more time studying for the bar than you did studying for your first exams in law school.

Any other additions?


Really . . .I don't know how all of this memorizing is supposed to get done.  I am doing as many questions (essay and multiple choice) as I can, but that doesn't leave room for lots of memorizing . . . then, I don't know how much of it will be necessary at the last minute.. . .that last two weeks of cramming that everyone is talking about is frightening me.  I feel like I am learning quite a bit right now, but it still seems like I have a LOOONNNGGG way to go . . . and only about a month and a half left!

Man...is anybody else feeling mad behind?


THANK YOU.  I'm sitting here looking at this material like....its just not sticking and there's entirely TOO MUCH of it.  I don't know how this memorizing is supposed to happen either.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 11, 2007, 09:14:41 PM
You know you are studying for the bar if...

4. you understand the significance of MBE, MPT, and PMBR.
5. you want to choke the life out of the cat in the BarBri video.
6. no matter how much sleep you get the night before, you still have to take about 2 or 3 naps to get through the day.
7. you dream about multi-state questions.
8. you know that Burglary only happens at night apparently.
9. you think that the PMBR blue book is an unattainable urban legend.
10. you know who Convisor is.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: «ě» on June 12, 2007, 05:09:23 AM
Passing the bar is very overrated anyway. Go out and have a beer, it's summer ;)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 12, 2007, 08:53:55 PM
Here's some Property Questions for ya'll straight from the Bar Exam.  You 1L bastards probably know this stuff off the top of your head, but for us old head 3L's, this stuff is like going back to high school physics.


In 1995, John Jones executed a deed by which he conveyed Blackacre for a consideration of one dollar, receipt of which was acknowledged, "to Burkhart for life, then to Carr for life but if Car moves to another state, to Drew for the life of Carr, then to the heirs of Carr if Carr does not move to another state and to the heirs of Drew if Carr does move to another state."  This deed was properly recorded.

1. During Burkhart's lifetime, Carr's interest may best be described as a (an)

(A) contingent remainder
(B) shifting executory interest
(C) vested remainder subject to complete divestiture
(D) vested remainder subject to partial divestiture

2. During Burkhart's lifetime, Drew's interest may best be described as a (an)


(A) estate pur autre vie
(B) contingent remainder pur autre vie
(C) vested remainder pur autre vie
(D) shifting executory interest pur autre vie





Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on June 12, 2007, 08:58:43 PM
Lol.

Its criminal law and evidence week for me. 

I don't know anything about property right now.

Here's some Property Questions for ya'll straight from the Bar Exam.  You 1L bastards probably know this stuff off the top of your head, but for us old head 3L's, this stuff is like going back to high school physics.


In 1995, John Jones executed a deed by which he conveyed Blackacre for a consideration of one dollar, receipt of which was acknowledged, "to Burkhart for life, then to Carr for life but if Car moves to another state, to Drew for the life of Carr, then to the heirs of Carr if Carr does not move to another state and to the heirs of Drew if Carr does move to another state."  This deed was properly recorded.

1. During Burkhart's lifetime, Carr's interest may best be described as a (an)

(A) contingent remainder
(B) shifting executory interest
(C) vested remainder subject to complete divestiture
(D) vested remainder subject to partial divestiture

2. During Burkhart's lifetime, Drew's interest may best be described as a (an)


(A) estate pur autre vie
(B) contingent remainder pur autre vie
(C) vested remainder pur autre vie
(D) shifting executory interest pur autre vie






Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 12, 2007, 09:28:53 PM
We started with Crim and Evidence.  Seems like we're swapping places. 

As far as not knowing anything about Property, that makes 2 of us.



Here's another one for you 1L's out there, and those of you who love property (because I know I don't - missed the first part, got the last two parts on this one)


Landley owned a large building in the city of Ames.  On January 15, 1979, Landley leased the building to Tennance for a period of 20 years at a rental of $10,000 per month.  The leasehold agreement between Landley and Tennance provided that the latter was not permitted "to assign this lease to anyone except a corporation with an 'A' credit rating from the Delmarva Credit Rating Corporation."  On February 1, 1980, Tennance leased the premises to Aruba Inc., a corporation which did not have the required credit rating. The Tennance-Aruba lease was for a period of 5 years, with a rental of $15,000 per month, payable by Aruba to Tennance. In addition, Aruba agreed to abide by "all of the terms and conditions of the lease between Landley and Tennance."

One year later, Aruba Inc. leased the premise to Simon for the balance of the term of the Aruba-Tennance lease. Simon took possession of the said premises on February 1, 1981, the same day that Aruba Inc. vacated its occupancy.  Pursuant to the Aruba-Simon leasehold agreement, the latter was obligated to pay a monthly rental of $17,500 directly to Aruba Inc.  Simon has a 'B' credit rating with the Delmarva Credit Rating Corporation.  For one year, Simon paid $17,500, each month directly to Aruba Inc.  During that same period, Aruba Inc. continued to pay $15,000 each month to Tennance while the latter paid $10,000 (each month) to Landley.  Landley knew about the leases to Aruba Inc. and Simon, and protested promptly but took no further action, apparently satisfied so long as he received his $10,000 per month from Tennance.

On February 1, 1982, Simon abandoned the premises and stopped paying rent to Aruba Inc.  After Simon discontinued paying rent, Aruba Inc. stopped paying rent to Tennance.  When Tennance failed to receive his rent, he too stopped paying rent to Landley.

The building is now vacant, and Tennance refuses to pay rent until the air conditioning is fixed.  Simon returned his keys to Aruba Inc., and the latter has returned its keys to Tennance.  However Tennance has not returned his keys to Landley yet.  Simon's abandonment was caused by the destruction of the air conditioning unit in a fire apparently set by some vandals.  The damaged unit was located in an area inside the store that was used for storing merchandise.

Simon has flatly refused to repair or replace the equipment at his own expense.  Despite Simon's repeated demands, Aruba, Tennance and Landley have all refused to replace the air conditioning system.

1. Which of the following accurately states the legal effect of the non-assignability clause contained in the Landley-Tennance leasehold contract?

(A) The non-assignability provision had no legal effect
(B) The non-assignability provision made the assignment from Tennance to Aruba ineffective
(C) The Tennance-Aruba lease did not effectuate a breach of the Landley-Aruba contract
(D) Although the Tennance-Aruba lease constituted a breach of the Landley-Tennance contract, Landley would nevertheless be required to recognize the validity of the transfers (of the premises) to Aruba

2. If Landley brings suit to recover for the past rent due, which of the following is (are) correct?

I. Landley may recover against Tennance for past rent due.
II. Landley may recover against Aruba for past rent due.
III. Landley may recover against Simon for past rent due.

(A) I only
(B) I and II
(C) II only
(D) I, II, and III

3. Which of the following accurately states the legal relationship(s) of the various parties?

I. Privity of estate and privity of contract exist between Landley and Tennance.
II. Privity of estate and privity of contract exist between Tennance and Aruba
III. Privity of estate but not privity of contract exists between Landley and Aruba
IV. Neither privity of estate nor privity of contract exists between Landley and Simon

(A) I and II, but not III and IV
(B) II and III, but not I and IV
(C) I and IV, but not II and III
(D) I, II and IV, but not III

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 12, 2007, 09:35:11 PM
D (reliance/laches?), A (no contract with the other two?), C (seems like it requires a close relationship?)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: pikey on June 13, 2007, 07:15:02 AM
Here's some Property Questions for ya'll straight from the Bar Exam.  You 1L bastards probably know this stuff off the top of your head, but for us old head 3L's, this stuff is like going back to high school physics.


In 1995, John Jones executed a deed by which he conveyed Blackacre for a consideration of one dollar, receipt of which was acknowledged, "to Burkhart for life, then to Carr for life but if Car moves to another state, to Drew for the life of Carr, then to the heirs of Carr if Carr does not move to another state and to the heirs of Drew if Carr does move to another state."  This deed was properly recorded.

1. During Burkhart's lifetime, Carr's interest may best be described as a (an)

(A) contingent remainder
(B) shifting executory interest
(C) vested remainder subject to complete divestiture
(D) vested remainder subject to partial divestiture

2. During Burkhart's lifetime, Drew's interest may best be described as a (an)


(A) estate pur autre vie
(B) contingent remainder pur autre vie
(C) vested remainder pur autre vie
(D) shifting executory interest pur autre vie







1. A.  His interest is contingent on B dying.  Since B is still alive, the interest hasn't vested yet.

2. B.  It's definitely not A or C and I don't know anything about D!  Drew's interest is definitely contingent on Carr moving and it's a remainder because he gets what's left after B dies and Carr moves.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: 2Lacoste on June 13, 2007, 07:22:52 AM
How about E) School is over and I could care less.

LOL.

I don't remember this crap.  Thank goodness we didn't have future interests on our property exam (although we had everything else, ugh).

Good luck with that!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 13, 2007, 07:26:07 AM
Here's some Property Questions for ya'll straight from the Bar Exam.  You 1L bastards probably know this stuff off the top of your head, but for us old head 3L's, this stuff is like going back to high school physics.


In 1995, John Jones executed a deed by which he conveyed Blackacre for a consideration of one dollar, receipt of which was acknowledged, "to Burkhart for life, then to Carr for life but if Car moves to another state, to Drew for the life of Carr, then to the heirs of Carr if Carr does not move to another state and to the heirs of Drew if Carr does move to another state."  This deed was properly recorded.

1. During Burkhart's lifetime, Carr's interest may best be described as a (an)

(A) contingent remainder
(B) shifting executory interest
(C) vested remainder subject to complete divestiture
(D) vested remainder subject to partial divestiture

2. During Burkhart's lifetime, Drew's interest may best be described as a (an)


(A) estate pur autre vie
(B) contingent remainder pur autre vie
(C) vested remainder pur autre vie
(D) shifting executory interest pur autre vie


Oh didn't see this one!  I'm going to say A and D (dealing with a third party?)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: theprocrastinator on June 13, 2007, 08:34:44 AM
You know you are studying for the bar if...

4. you understand the significance of MBE, MPT, and PMBR.
5. you want to choke the life out of the cat in the BarBri video.
6. no matter how much sleep you get the night before, you still have to take about 2 or 3 naps to get through the day.
7. you dream about multi-state questions.
8. you know that Burglary only happens at night apparently.
9. you think that the PMBR blue book is an unattainable urban legend.
10. you know who Convisor is.

1. when friends and family ask for simple legal advice you bust out your paced program and say "ask me again in 2 weeks"
2. you try to explain to outsiders how funny the Torts lecturer was, but realize halfway through explaining Palsgraf while setting up the joke that you just sound like a boring a-hole. Flashbacks to 1L (shudders)
3. you remember law school fondly, wishing you could recapture the carefree innocent youthfulness of it all, even though you were cursing it to hell less than 2 months ago.
4. you take all your notes by hand so as to condition your wrists and fingers for the big dance
5. you spend more time trying to figure out whether your multi-choice percentages, averaging the advanced and intermediate questions together and accounting for the introductory ones that you didn't do based on what percentage of those types of questions there should be on the exam and adding them together with your scores on the graded essays (or what they would have been had you not taken a quick peek at the answer before writing your final draft just to make sure you were on the right track) to figure out whether you will pass the bar than you do actually practicing the questions and essays.
6. Coming up with these things is the funnest thing you've done all week.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 13, 2007, 05:52:48 PM
Here's some Property Questions for ya'll straight from the Bar Exam.  You 1L bastards probably know this stuff off the top of your head, but for us old head 3L's, this stuff is like going back to high school physics.


In 1995, John Jones executed a deed by which he conveyed Blackacre for a consideration of one dollar, receipt of which was acknowledged, "to Burkhart for life, then to Carr for life but if Car moves to another state, to Drew for the life of Carr, then to the heirs of Carr if Carr does not move to another state and to the heirs of Drew if Carr does move to another state."  This deed was properly recorded.

1. During Burkhart's lifetime, Carr's interest may best be described as a (an)

(A) contingent remainder
(B) shifting executory interest
(C) vested remainder subject to complete divestiture
(D) vested remainder subject to partial divestiture

2. During Burkhart's lifetime, Drew's interest may best be described as a (an)


(A) estate pur autre vie
(B) contingent remainder pur autre vie
(C) vested remainder pur autre vie
(D) shifting executory interest pur autre vie







1. A.  His interest is contingent on B dying.  Since B is still alive, the interest hasn't vested yet.

2. B.  It's definitely not A or C and I don't know anything about D!  Drew's interest is definitely contingent on Carr moving and it's a remainder because he gets what's left after B dies and Carr moves.

Close.

1. C
2. D


Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 13, 2007, 05:53:38 PM
D (reliance/laches?), A (no contract with the other two?), C (seems like it requires a close relationship?)


Close.


1. A
2. A
3. D

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 13, 2007, 07:17:23 PM
lol 1/3 isn't anywhere near close
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 13, 2007, 09:24:26 PM
But your reasoning was in the right area.  That'll usually land you a couple of good guesses on the MBE.  You can't know all the rules but so long as you know the basic concepts of the law you can generally eliminate the bad answer choices and pick up a few points here or there.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: LBJFan on June 14, 2007, 12:18:00 AM
You know you are studying for the bar if...

4. you understand the significance of MBE, MPT, and PMBR.
5. you want to choke the life out of the cat in the BarBri video.
6. no matter how much sleep you get the night before, you still have to take about 2 or 3 naps to get through the day.
7. you dream about multi-state questions.
8. you know that Burglary only happens at night apparently.
9. you think that the PMBR blue book is an unattainable urban legend.
10. you know who Convisor is.


ummm...I can only vouch for 6,7 and 8 ...I feel like a slacker lol  :-\

Whats the deal with this Barbri cat? My barbri lectures are LIVE! so, apparently I'm missing out on a cat of some sort...?

I have no idea who Convisor is...enlighten me  ;D

All I know for sure is...the CA bar examiners are sadistic, sick individuals who should all be maimed...or have their chattel trespassed or something.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: LBJFan on June 14, 2007, 12:29:26 AM
Oh and I know #4 too!

Duh
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: pikey on June 14, 2007, 06:04:37 AM
lol 1/3 isn't anywhere near close

I was thinking the same thing since I got them both wrong!  Otoh, C was my first choice for 1, but I talked myself out of it.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 14, 2007, 04:35:32 PM
lol 1/3 isn't anywhere near close

I was thinking the same thing since I got them both wrong!  Otoh, C was my first choice for 1, but I talked myself out of it.

Don't feel bad at all.  Peep this, straight from the PMBR book:

"Be aware that the Property questions on the MBE are the most onerous and difficult.  During the last two years, the average mean score for Property on the MBE has been only 18 correct out of 33.  One of the reasons the Property scores are so low is because very obscure areas (such as percolating waters, fructus naturales crops, mortgages, riparian water rights, etc.) are usually tested."
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 16, 2007, 08:53:12 PM
Whenever I think about contracts I can't stop thinking about the infamous Professor Kingsfield hazing the sh!t out of Hart and the rest of the Harvard 1L's.  For you contracts bast-ahds:


On December 16, 1974, Franco, owner and operator of Pizza Palace, entered into a written contract with Mario which provided that Mario would be employed as manager of the Pizza Palace for a period of 3 years.  The contract provided that Mario would commence working in January 1975 and that Franco was "to pay Mario a salary of $1500 per month, payable one-third to Mario, one-third to Mario's elderly mother, Mia, and one-third to the Venice National bank (to whom Mario was indebted in the sum of $50,000 which was secured by a mortgage on Mario's oceanfront villa)."  In addition, the employment contract provided that Franco would pay Mario an annual bonus "to be determined by the parties hereto within two weeks after the year's profits have been ascertained."  The contract further stipulated that "the monies due hereunder shall not be assignable."

When Mia learned of this contract, she wrote a letter to Franco stating, "Kindly pay the amounts due me under your contract with my son directly to the Pine Creek Nursing Home, where I am presently a patient." During the first year of the contract, Franco paid $500 per month to Mario, $500 per month to the Pine Creek Nursing Home, and $500 per month to the Venice National Bank.  At the end of 1975, Pizza Palace's net profit was $50,000.  Accordingly, Mario and Franco agreed that Mario should receive a bonus of $5,000; this amount was subsequently paid to Mario.

In January, 1976, Pizza Hut, a new pizza franchise, opened a restaurant across the street from the Pizza Palace.  During the next few months business at the Pizza Palace steadily declined.  As a result of the loss in business, Franco informed Mario that unless he agreed to take a cut in his salary, Mario would be fired.  Reluctantly, on May 20, 1976, Mario orally consented to a salary reduction of $500 per month.  By the terms of their verbal agreement, Franco promised to continue to pay $500 per month to the Venice National Bank.  However, their new agreement provided that beginning June 1st, Franco would no longer be obligated to pay $500 per month to the Pine Creek Nursing Home.  Thereafter, Franco discontinued his $500 per month payments to Pine Creek Nursing Home.

At the end of 1976, Pizza Palace realized a net profit of $10,000.  On January 3rd, 1977, Franco telephoned Mario and offered him a second year bonus of $1,000.  Mario refused and requested a bonus of $2,000.  Moreover, Mario stated that he would no longer be bound by the salary adjustment and demanded that Franco thereafter pay him, his mother, and Venice National Bank on the basis of $1,500 per month.  Franco refused Mario's demand and immediately terminated his employment.

1. In June 1976, the Pine Creek Nursing Home brings suit against Franco for breach of contract.  Judgment for
(A) Franco, since Mia's assignment to Pine Creek was void as violative of the anti-assignment clause in the Franco-Mario contract.
(B) Franco, since the May 20th agreement between Franco and Mario released Franco of any further obligations to Pine Creek.
(C) Pine Creek, since Mia's assignment would be enforceable despite the May 20th release.
(D) Pine Creek, since Mia's gratuitous assignment was irrevocable.

2. Which of the following statements regarding the May 20th agreement between Franco-Mario is most accurate?
(A) It effectuated a valid reformation of their original written contract.
(B) It effectuated a valid modification of their original written contract.
(C) It effectuated a novation of their original written contract.
(D) It did not alter the rights and obligations of the parties under the terms of their original contract.

3. Following his dismissal, Mario brings suit for breach of contract against Franco. Which of the following is (are) correct?
I. Mario has a cause of action against Franco to recover a bonus for the year ending 1976.
II. Mario has a cause of action against Franco for loss of wages.
III. Neither Franco nor Mario had the power to vary Mia's rights as a third party beneficiary under the terms of their original contract.
(A) II only
(B) I and II
(C) II and III
(D) I, II, and III

4. The December 16, 1974 agreement between Franco and Mario may best be interpreted as
(A) an entire contract
(B) a divisible contract
(C) an installment contract
(D) neither divisible nor entire

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 16, 2007, 10:22:23 PM
Totally guessing: B, B, B, A (have no clue about the last one)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on June 17, 2007, 08:43:17 AM
Totally guessing: B, B, B, A (have no clue about the last one)
All wrong.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on June 17, 2007, 08:48:30 AM
lol 1/3 isn't anywhere near close
1/3 might not be anywhere close, but on the MBE -- 2/3rds is passing. (generally)

I agree with all the lists posted thus far, except for the part about PMBR in the car. Since I don't have a car, I just listen on the iPod.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 17, 2007, 09:09:55 AM
Totally guessing: B, B, B, A (have no clue about the last one)
All wrong.

lol so much for that
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on June 17, 2007, 09:42:49 AM
Totally guessing: B, B, B, A (have no clue about the last one)
All wrong.

lol so much for that
But think of all the excitement you have to look forward to.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 17, 2007, 11:07:55 AM
Totally guessing: B, B, B, A (have no clue about the last one)
All wrong.

lol so much for that
But think of all the excitement you have to look forward to.


LOL  indeed.

First time I saw this problem the last question was the only thing I got right and I guessed my azz off at that.  Hey, do you find that sometimes the LESS you know the better you do on these MBE's?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on June 17, 2007, 11:15:00 AM
I did not do so well on those particular questions. For a while it seemed as though it was getting worse with studying; now I feel that the tide is turning a bit.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 17, 2007, 11:19:36 AM
I'm not quite there yet. Still operating at about 50%.  Still getting about 25 out of 50 give or take.  Property was brutal on the time.  I dont know if you've been keeping track of your time yet but so far my study partner and I have been keeping it below the 1.8 minute UNTIL we got to Property, then we were well over 2 minutes per.

I think we're not quite to the turning point yet.  Still haven't quite been exposed to everything we need.  How are you feeling about those essays?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on June 17, 2007, 01:28:58 PM
I'm with Sands . . . I am about 24-27 right on each subject. I'm ready to get that miraculous boost that they say you get about 3-4 weeks before you take the bar . . . for me, I think I might need to stop doing questions for a minute and study outlines for a few days . . . then, I think I'll start to see an increase.

What's everyone's meanest state subject?

For me, Texas Procedure and evidence.  Civil and criminal, 90 minutes, 40 short answer questions.  Yes, 40.  It is "only" 10% of the bar but its the first day, so if you do well, it will motivate you, if you don't . . . you might not come back the other two days.

How much time is everyone spending on state subjects, essays, etc?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on June 17, 2007, 02:00:10 PM
I'm probably not doing enough essays yet. I'm trying to get the rules down. I figure if I can learn them, they'll be reinforced through writing essays.

Working on the questions helps me to work on the rules, far more than just reading outlines and reviewing notes.

As far as state subjects, I think the two big ones tested for us are commercial paper and equity. Of those, I'll probably have more problems with commercial paper.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: theprocrastinator on June 17, 2007, 03:13:10 PM
Virginia Civ Pro is a female dog. I hate memorizing deadlines and procedural crap. On the other hand, they finally abolished the whole 'sides of court' thing and modernized the terminology in equity in 2006, so I guess it could have been a lot worse.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 17, 2007, 03:47:28 PM
I started to do the whole read outlines thing but found it counterproductive.  I would read a whole section of an outline, take 50 questions on the exact same section and still only get 25/50 correct.  LOL  No retention whatsoever.  So I switched it up a little - I went back and re-did 50 MBE questions that I had missed before on a subject that I had already finished a few days ago, just to see if my brain works at all - got 41/50 correct.  It seems after reviewing the questions that I got wrong, I remember the question AND I remember the rule of law pertaining to the question better than I do from just reading straight outlines out of context.

As far as State Specific Essays, New York hits up a Corporations essay every year guaranteed, which, of course, is my worst subject throughout all of law school.  They also have a guaranteed Crim Law/Pro essay every year.  Now that's not so bad, but NY has all these friggin degrees of crimes, it's ridiculous.  6 degrees of solicitation, son. 6! 


In honor of all things ridiculous in NY state law, my study partner and I have duly decided that there are just some things that we are NOT going to commit to memory.  6 degrees of solicitation being one of them.

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 17, 2007, 05:30:22 PM
Virginia Civ Pro is a female dog. I hate memorizing deadlines and procedural crap. On the other hand, they finally abolished the whole 'sides of court' thing and modernized the terminology in equity in 2006, so I guess it could have been a lot worse.

What else can you tell me about the VA bar?  I'm trying to decide between VA and MD bar.  For instance, I hear VA has no codified rules of evidence.  Is that tested?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Rudy Huckleberry on June 17, 2007, 08:41:54 PM
Virginia Civ Pro is a female dog. I hate memorizing deadlines and procedural crap. On the other hand, they finally abolished the whole 'sides of court' thing and modernized the terminology in equity in 2006, so I guess it could have been a lot worse.

What else can you tell me about the VA bar?  I'm trying to decide between VA and MD bar.  For instance, I hear VA has no codified rules of evidence.  Is that tested?

you should take the AL bar.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 17, 2007, 09:11:34 PM
Um no.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on June 17, 2007, 09:14:17 PM
Virginia Civ Pro is a female dog. I hate memorizing deadlines and procedural crap. On the other hand, they finally abolished the whole 'sides of court' thing and modernized the terminology in equity in 2006, so I guess it could have been a lot worse.

What else can you tell me about the VA bar?  I'm trying to decide between VA and MD bar.  For instance, I hear VA has no codified rules of evidence.  Is that tested?

you should take the AL bar.

who wants to live in Alabama?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 17, 2007, 09:25:53 PM
Exactly.  Although it's tied with NYC on my places to live...
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on June 17, 2007, 09:28:26 PM
Exactly.  Although it's tied with NYC on my places to live...

 ::)

nyc on the save level as AL?  hell no :D
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 17, 2007, 09:47:43 PM
:P
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: theprocrastinator on June 17, 2007, 11:27:49 PM
Virginia Civ Pro is a female dog. I hate memorizing deadlines and procedural crap. On the other hand, they finally abolished the whole 'sides of court' thing and modernized the terminology in equity in 2006, so I guess it could have been a lot worse.

What else can you tell me about the VA bar?  I'm trying to decide between VA and MD bar.  For instance, I hear VA has no codified rules of evidence.  Is that tested?

Nah. They never test evidence on the essays. Civ pro, wills/trusts, crim law, equity, sales, and domestic relations are the big ones. Probably at least 4 essays out of that group and then a few random subjects from a list of 24. Essays are worth 60% in VA.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 18, 2007, 05:18:13 AM
What's "equity"?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: theprocrastinator on June 18, 2007, 08:29:25 AM
What's "equity"?

Injunctions & specific performance mainly. Basically anything that isn't money damages.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 18, 2007, 08:37:38 AM
What's "equity"?

Injunctions & specific performance mainly. Basically anything that isn't money damages.

Interesting.  I'm going to have to research this VA bar exam some more.  Didn't know they still divided things into law and equity.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: theprocrastinator on June 18, 2007, 08:46:26 AM
What's "equity"?

Injunctions & specific performance mainly. Basically anything that isn't money damages.

Interesting.  I'm going to have to research this VA bar exam some more.  Didn't know they still divided things into law and equity.

They don't really divide it up anymore, at least not anymore than most states. Before 2006 you had to bring separate actions in front of separate judges and the terminoligy was all different, but they abolished all that and now you can bring a suit in one court and ask for both legal and equitable relief in the same complaint. The only things you have to learn about equity now are basically what it is and when its available, which is pretty much the same as it would be in any state that tests on equity.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 18, 2007, 08:50:45 AM
Ah OK.  Thanks!  You planning to practice in VA?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: theprocrastinator on June 18, 2007, 09:34:21 AM
Ah OK.  Thanks!  You planning to practice in VA?

Yeah, or DC. Wherever I find the best work I guess.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 18, 2007, 09:36:57 AM
Cool.  Good luck
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 18, 2007, 03:17:47 PM
So after the 2nd consecutive set of 23/50 in a row on Contracts, our grand total on 200 contracts question is 97 out of 200. 

Question: Do we jump off the Brooklyn Bridge now or...what?


Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: cui bono? on June 18, 2007, 03:22:51 PM
lol  hang in there. 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: iman on June 18, 2007, 04:31:23 PM
i heard you had to wear a suit for the va bar. is that true? that seems so extra.

Ah OK.  Thanks!  You planning to practice in VA?

Yeah, or DC. Wherever I find the best work I guess.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: theprocrastinator on June 18, 2007, 05:26:17 PM
i heard you had to wear a suit for the va bar. is that true? that seems so extra.

Ah OK.  Thanks!  You planning to practice in VA?

Yeah, or DC. Wherever I find the best work I guess.

Not only that, but we're also supposed to wear sneakers so that our feet don't disturb people. Seriously. If you're not wearing a suit and sneakers they kick you out.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on June 18, 2007, 10:04:28 PM
II got 30 out of 50 evidence questions tonight . . . I read over the outline today and did the questions this evening.

I got 31 of 50 con law questions right last week. 

Property tomorrow.

Contracts wednesday.

Sands, don't overthink it.  As long as you don't fall too far below 50% and keep doing questions, you should be good. 


:Dquote author=The Avatar link=topic=88278.msg2291229#msg2291229 date=1182201467]
So after the 2nd consecutive set of 23/50 in a row on Contracts, our grand total on 200 contracts question is 97 out of 200. 

Question: Do we jump off the Brooklyn Bridge now or...what?



[/quote]
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 19, 2007, 11:02:30 AM
Yeah I hear ya....

So far we've been at about the 50% mark, give or take. Talked with some recent grads who passed and they said that until you see ALL of the "typical" MBE fact patterns for each subject (apparently there are a finite amount), you're not ready for the turning point yet.  This usually happens after you finish the red book, which I've been told needs to happen by the end of June.


My study partner and I are doing basically the same as far as time and # correct. So far I've got the following:



CRIM LAW:
27/50 @ 1.4 min/?
28/50 @ 1.6 min/?
23/50 @ 1.4 min/?

CRIM PRO
28/50 @ 1.5 min/?

EVIDENCE:
31/50 @ 1.2 min/?
29/50 @ 1.2 min/?
30/50 @ 1.4 min/?

CON LAW:
31/50 @ 1.6 min/?
26/50 @ 1.5 min/?
34/50 @ 1.6 min/?
31/50 @ 1.6 min/?

PROPERTY:
26/50 @ 1.8 min/?
26/50 @ 2.2 min/?
32/50 @ 2.2 min/?

K:
25/50 @ 1.6 min/?
26/50 @ 1.6 min/?
23/50 @ 1.6 min/?
23/50 @ 1.6 min/?


Torts is next for us.







Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: 2Lacoste on June 19, 2007, 01:07:28 PM
What you gotta score to win?!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 19, 2007, 02:55:05 PM
What you gotta score to win?!

depends on what u score on your essays
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 20, 2007, 06:55:52 PM
i heard you had to wear a suit for the va bar. is that true? that seems so extra.

Ah OK.  Thanks!  You planning to practice in VA?

Yeah, or DC. Wherever I find the best work I guess.

Not only that, but we're also supposed to wear sneakers so that our feet don't disturb people. Seriously. If you're not wearing a suit and sneakers they kick you out.

Lol I talked to an acquaintance studying for the VA bar today.  He showed me some of his stuff.  That ish looks boring as hell.  But at least everyone gets to use a laptop if you sign up (I think...right?).  Although the suit and sneakers thing is annoying.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 20, 2007, 09:55:36 PM
Don't say the word laptop around me.  I can't appreciate not making the NY lottery right about now.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 20, 2007, 10:02:13 PM
Lol sorry dood.  I haven't handwritten anything in years.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: 2Lacoste on June 21, 2007, 07:02:59 AM
Don't say the word laptop around me.  I can't appreciate not making the NY lottery right about now.


NYBARWITHOUTALAPTOPSUCKSPWN3D!!!!!111?   :-\
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on June 21, 2007, 07:36:03 AM
Don't say the word laptop around me.  I can't appreciate not making the NY lottery right about now.


the NY bar is handwritten??
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 21, 2007, 07:37:00 AM
Don't say the word laptop around me.  I can't appreciate not making the NY lottery right about now.


the NY bar is handwritten??

Except for those lucky few who win the lottery.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 21, 2007, 10:07:32 AM
Largest bar exam in the nation (over 13k people) and how do they wanna do it?  Why nothing but old school, arthritis-inducing hand written essays of course! 

Here's the kicker though.  They swear that the people who get the laptop lottery are no different than the people who write by hand when it comes to scoring.  Yeah *(#@ right.  When you have 40 minutes to write an essay, which way would you rather do it?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 21, 2007, 10:12:06 AM
Largest bar exam in the nation (over 13k people) and how do they wanna do it?  Why nothing but old school, arthritis-inducing hand written essays of course! 

Here's the kicker though.  They swear that the people who get the laptop lottery are no different than the people who write by hand when it comes to scoring.  Yeah *(#@ right.  When you have 40 minutes to write an essay, which way would you rather do it?

Exactly.  They shouldn't let anyone do it if they don't let everyone do it.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: «ě» on June 21, 2007, 01:12:45 PM
Largest bar exam in the nation (over 13k people) and how do they wanna do it?  Why nothing but old school, arthritis-inducing hand written essays of course! 

Here's the kicker though.  They swear that the people who get the laptop lottery are no different than the people who write by hand when it comes to scoring.  Yeah *(#@ right.  When you have 40 minutes to write an essay, which way would you rather do it?

Morse!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on June 21, 2007, 09:20:45 PM
I've got you beat.  We only get 30 minutes to write. 

I elected to write rather than type because if I were typing I would probably write more, meaning that I would be less precise in my answers. Also . . . remember, typists get carpal tunnel . . . so there are pros and cons to both.

You can do laptop exams in Texas, but only for 50% of the exam--the essay day and the MPT.  I personally think that writing forces you to learn the material a little bit better and forces you to be more precise.

By the way, if you haven't already check out the national conference of bar examiners website.  They have a MBE-Annotated Preview, which is kind of cool.  I just did the 100 questions there and I got 61/100 right. You can retake the exam as many times as you want.  I just spent my evening leisurely doing those problems instead of hard core studying.

We have the BarBri simulated MBE tomorrow. Should be interesting.


Largest bar exam in the nation (over 13k people) and how do they wanna do it?  Why nothing but old school, arthritis-inducing hand written essays of course! 

Here's the kicker though.  They swear that the people who get the laptop lottery are no different than the people who write by hand when it comes to scoring.  Yeah *(#@ right.  When you have 40 minutes to write an essay, which way would you rather do it?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on June 21, 2007, 11:30:06 PM
Thanks for the tip on the NCBE site. I'll check it out. My BarBri MBE preview is next Monday.

I'm taking the exam on computer. That said, I'm doing most of my studying at this point by handwriting. I agree with the learning better that way.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Nowhere Man on June 21, 2007, 11:46:29 PM
Maybe I can ask you guys this question...

I got to FAMU and I would say the MAJORITY of all our tests this pass year were MC/Essay (where if both are given the MC is 2/3). In my first semester I took  Property I, Contracts I, Torts I, Civ. Pro.I , Legal Writing I and in the Spring we had the sequels to those classes just mentioned along with Con. Law I.

I had Property II and Civ. Pro. II and the ENTIRE test was MC. The Property was 60 questions in 2 hours, mind you my Prof. used to teach for PMBR. And I had 100 questions in Civ. Pro. in 3 hours.

I think the reason why are school gives out so many MC portions is for two reasons:

1. I know I go to FAMU. Tier 4, so the demographic of students are different. So I guess they are trying to get us comfortable in taking exams with objective/subjective aspects.
2. Hey numbers don't lie! Easier to grade + lazy professors.

I actually REVIEW with PMBR questions. I bought the Red and Blue books. And I do the Red books throughout the year. And do the Blue Book just a couple of days before the Final.

I also study with P.L.I. MBE review.

So basically I study from BarPrep materials.

So I am asking the J.D.s now that are studying for the bar. Do you think FAMU exam idea is a good one since you guys have been exposed to Bar Prep materials now?

Because when you posted the question, I spotted those issues and fortunately I got the answer right.

Im anxiously waiting for you guys' answer.

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on June 22, 2007, 07:02:48 AM
I'm not sure if good/bad is an issue. It's different; I had very few classes that heavily dependent on MC questions. The PMBR (and other MBE) questions are tough. If you can do them, it does show that you have a grasp of the material.

I think where you might be missing out, though, is in the fact that the law is a discipline that works by writing. Briefs, motions, memoranda, contracts, etc., etc. While the essays aren't exactly fun, they do involve a greater range of materials than the MBE subjects. In addition, they reinforce knowing rules, analyzing those rules based on the facts presented, and stating a conclusion. While you're, in essence, doing all of this through the multiple choice, you're not being forced to do these same tasks in writing.

The other thing that might be a slight concern is depth of coverage. There is material in some of the classes that it seemed that my class covered in more depth than one would see on the bar exam or when preparing for the bar exam.

I'm not sure that this all works as an indictment of your school. I don't know enough about the school to say anything such as that. It's possible that they want to ensure a good bar passage rate so they're using bar materials to build your understanding now.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: intent06 on June 22, 2007, 08:35:28 AM
Maybe I can ask you guys this question...

I got to FAMU and I would say the MAJORITY of all our tests this pass year were MC/Essay (where if both are given the MC is 2/3). In my first semester I took  Property I, Contracts I, Torts I, Civ. Pro.I , Legal Writing I and in the Spring we had the sequels to those classes just mentioned along with Con. Law I.

I had Property II and Civ. Pro. II and the ENTIRE test was MC. The Property was 60 questions in 2 hours, mind you my Prof. used to teach for PMBR. And I had 100 questions in Civ. Pro. in 3 hours.

I think the reason why are school gives out so many MC portions is for two reasons:

1. I know I go to FAMU. Tier 4, so the demographic of students are different. So I guess they are trying to get us comfortable in taking exams with objective/subjective aspects.
2. Hey numbers don't lie! Easier to grade + lazy professors.

I actually REVIEW with PMBR questions. I bought the Red and Blue books. And I do the Red books throughout the year. And do the Blue Book just a couple of days before the Final.

I also study with P.L.I. MBE review.

So basically I study from BarPrep materials.

So I am asking the J.D.s now that are studying for the bar. Do you think FAMU exam idea is a good one since you guys have been exposed to Bar Prep materials now?

Because when you posted the question, I spotted those issues and fortunately I got the answer right.

Im anxiously waiting for you guys' answer.



Hey, I know exactly what you are going through man.  I got to Thurgood Marshall, also a 4th tier school and they put A LOT of emphasis on MC questions.  In this past year (I was a 1L), the majority of our exams were MC.  We did have some essay questions, but we didn't write hardly enough in my opinion.  The interesting thing about Thurgood is that after your professors regular final, all of the 1L's take comprehensive, 60 question MC exam in each substantive course (Civ Pro, Contracts, Torts, Property).  They are all 2 hour exams and they are absolutely crazy!  They say they are bar simulated, but part of it comes from just questions made up in the mind of a mindless professor.

I use the PMBR books as well and they helped out a lot....my two cents!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 22, 2007, 05:22:54 PM
I'm not sure if good/bad is an issue. It's different; I had very few classes that heavily dependent on MC questions. The PMBR (and other MBE) questions are tough. If you can do them, it does show that you have a grasp of the material.

I think where you might be missing out, though, is in the fact that the law is a discipline that works by writing. Briefs, motions, memoranda, contracts, etc., etc. While the essays aren't exactly fun, they do involve a greater range of materials than the MBE subjects. In addition, they reinforce knowing rules, analyzing those rules based on the facts presented, and stating a conclusion. While you're, in essence, doing all of this through the multiple choice, you're not being forced to do these same tasks in writing.


I concur in the judgment.  I can't say 100% either way whether learning by doing bar prep multiple choice questions would be a good way to learn the law as a 1L.  I'm probably inclined to say it is a good way to prepare you for the bar exam, but not necessarily a good way to prepare you to be a lawyer (as ironic as that sounds). 

I think being exposed to these multiple choice questions early on during your law school career is definitely a good thing.  But learning all of the law via multiple choice would probably instill the incorrect notion that in the law there is such a thing as ONE correct answer.  Just not possible. 

Plus, the MBE doesn't test so much on knowledge of the law alone, it more so tests on standardized test taking ability using the substantive law as a backdrop.


In Planet Law School, he says:

"Clever, these examiners.  Only a twisted mentality could concoct many of these questions.  When I was a child, some of the neighborhood kids were really sick, mentally...Sometimes I strongly suspect that as adults they're drafting questions for the Multistate Bar Exam.  They're far more perverse even than law school professors...In recent years, there have been candidates who got only one question right of the [33] on Property, or three right of the [33] on Con Law or Evidence, or five of the [33] on Crim, or just six of the [33] on Contracts...By now you have the idea.  If passing the bar exam is supposed to be a measure of competence, then the Multistate ought to be a measure of competence.  It isn't.  Instead, the mental games the examiners play have subverted the substantive aspects."

then he also follows up by saying:

"If the bar exam were a serious measure of one's knowledge of the law, the minimum passing score would be set much higher.  And the pace would not be hectic.  Reflection is one of the hallmarks of a good attorney.  In the real world, there is usually ample time for reflection.  The [bar exam], in contrast forces 'instant analysis'...Based on what I've seen in practice, this instant analysis becomes habitual.  Thus, the artificial time constraints might actually be counter-productive in the long run.  Out in the real world, a client might suffer because his or her lawyer was content with an instant analysis that was erroneous."


-Planet Law School, 226-227, 229.


Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: jd06 on June 22, 2007, 05:47:53 PM
"...Instead, the mental games the examiners play have subverted the substantive aspects."

This is true, however, I think it's done with purpose.  In reality, depending on what field you work in, of course, the vast majority of the common law concepts you learn for the MBE will be irrelevant to your practice.  I sit in front of a book case of all the law I'll ever need.  The bar exam, IMO, is a test of your mental toughness.  Now that, you WILL need as a lawyer.  The ability to think on your feet under pressure (i.e. in front of a judge, in dealing with opposing counsel) is a lawyering necessity - more so than rote memorization of the substantive law.  I think the bar examiners are aware that, having graduated from ls, you have some kind of grasp of the substantive law.  What they need to find out is whether or not you have the mettle to practice.  In my home state (CA) at least, that sorting process is accomplished by the bar exam.     
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 22, 2007, 05:55:32 PM
Very true.  In the next paragraph following that one, the book goes on to say:

"The bar exam is a hazing ritual, and nothing more.  Instead of being forced to drink too much alcohol or to perform ridiculous physical acts of self-degradation, future lawyers are forced to 'drink in' an endless stream of legal lore - and to endure a nerve-wracking gauntlet spread over several days."

-Planet Law School, 229
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 22, 2007, 06:00:41 PM
Thanks for the tip on the NCBE site. I'll check it out. My BarBri MBE preview is next Monday.

I'm taking the exam on computer. That said, I'm doing most of my studying at this point by handwriting. I agree with the learning better that way.


Dang, our BarBri simulated MBE isn't until next Friday.  You guys are ahead of us.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on June 22, 2007, 06:17:20 PM
Will you also be doing the PMBR 3-day?

I am, but in mid-July.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 22, 2007, 06:25:42 PM
Yeah we do our PMBR three day on July 11-13
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on June 22, 2007, 06:43:56 PM
I agree with slacker.

In bar review, that's exactly what its supposed to be--a review.  You are supposed to have studied much of this material before, wrestled with the issues on an exam, and in the classroom for a full semester.  The main ideas and concepts are what you get in bar review.

I think multiple choice questions show you how to issue spot, and can test on substantive law to some degree, but essays and classroom dialogue are where you learn how to apply the law sufficiently to apply to the real practice of law--how to explain things to clients, how to converse with other lawyers, etc.




I'm not sure if good/bad is an issue. It's different; I had very few classes that heavily dependent on MC questions. The PMBR (and other MBE) questions are tough. If you can do them, it does show that you have a grasp of the material.

I think where you might be missing out, though, is in the fact that the law is a discipline that works by writing. Briefs, motions, memoranda, contracts, etc., etc. While the essays aren't exactly fun, they do involve a greater range of materials than the MBE subjects. In addition, they reinforce knowing rules, analyzing those rules based on the facts presented, and stating a conclusion. While you're, in essence, doing all of this through the multiple choice, you're not being forced to do these same tasks in writing.

The other thing that might be a slight concern is depth of coverage. There is material in some of the classes that it seemed that my class covered in more depth than one would see on the bar exam or when preparing for the bar exam.

I'm not sure that this all works as an indictment of your school. I don't know enough about the school to say anything such as that. It's possible that they want to ensure a good bar passage rate so they're using bar materials to build your understanding now.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on June 22, 2007, 06:47:20 PM
The BarBri MBE stinks.

I got less than half the questions right.

A sharp contrast from last night, where I got 61%.

Makes me wonder if I was fatigued, or if those questions really are harder. 

I will spend the weekend going over the answers and trying to digest the concepts, because I did notice while doing the barbri questions that there are patterns, things that if I commit to memory will be very useful to  me for the exam.

Our PMBR course if July 13-15 . . . It was originally scheduled from the 11-13th--they changed it, which stinks, because I wanted it to be earlier so I would have more uninterrupted study time. :) Oh well. Such is life.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 22, 2007, 06:50:59 PM
OK, I need you guys' help on this one.  Torts Question #56 in the Red Book, I strongly believe contains an incorrect statement of law in its explanation.

Its the one where the attractive girl is riding on the plane and the obnoxious male passenger gets drunk from the stewardess handing him drinks, and then the obnoxious guy loses his mind and smacks the attractive girl in the mouth because she won't give in to his sexual advances.  You guys remember that one?

It has two questions.  In the first question (#55) the girl brings a suit against the airline for negligence.  The question is can she win?  That answer is of course, yes; the airline is a Common Carrier, and as such, will be vicariously liable for the negligence of its employees.  The stewardess was an airline employee, she kept serving the guy alcohol, she either knew or should have known that her conduct may result in harm to somebody, namely the victim.

That one I have no problem with. That's a straightforward application of Common Carrier liability for its employees. 

The second question, however (#56) is a huge contradiction.  It says, same facts but assume the victim brings a claim against the airline for Battery (an intentional tort).  What result?

The answer, as you might know, is that Common Carriers are NOT vicariously liable for the intentional torts of its passengers.  Answer choice (C) embodies this principle.  It says that the attractive female passenger who was hit in the mouth by the obnoxious male passenger will "not prevail, unless [obnoxious male passenger] was an employee or agent of the airline."  Meaning, that a Common Carrier would only be vicariously liable if the intentional tort was committed by an employee.  This would seem to exclude passengers.

If you check the answer in the back of the Torts chapter, choice (C) above is the correct answer. 

BUT...then they go and mess up my universe.  At the end of the answer explanation they say that "a Common Carrier may be held vicariously liable for the intentional torts of its passengers." 

WTF??

Dude, which one is it?  They can't BOTH be true, PMBR.  I have no idea whether that last sentence in the PMBR explanation is true or not true. All I do know is that if it IS true, then the answer sure as hell can not be (C).


HELP
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on June 22, 2007, 07:02:33 PM
You know what . . .I thought that was a little weird, but I just kind of shrugged it off, because we didn't cover that in torts, so what do I know?

I'm going to look at it.  But I don't think the common carriers are responsible for the intentinoal torts of passengers . . . it doesn't fit in, broadly speaking, with tort law. . . .

Let me see . . .

OK, I need you guys' help on this one.  Torts Question #56 in the Red Book, I strongly believe contains an incorrect statement of law in its explanation.

Its the one where the attractive girl is riding on the plane and the obnoxious male passenger gets drunk from the stewardess handing him drinks, and then the obnoxious guy loses his mind and smacks the attractive girl in the mouth because she won't give in to his sexual advances.  You guys remember that one?

It has two questions.  In the first question (#55) the girl brings a suit against the airline for negligence.  The question is can she win?  That answer is of course, yes; the airline is a Common Carrier, and as such, will be vicariously liable for the negligence of its employees.  The stewardess was an airline employee, she kept serving the guy alcohol, she either knew or should have known that her conduct may result in harm to somebody, namely the victim.

That one I have no problem with. That's a straightforward application of Common Carrier liability for its employees. 

The second question, however (#56) is a huge contradiction.  It says, same facts but assume the victim brings a claim against the airline for Battery (an intentional tort).  What result?

The answer, as you might know, is that Common Carriers are NOT vicariously liable for the intentional torts of its passengers.  Answer choice (C) embodies this principle.  It says that the attractive female passenger who was hit in the mouth by the obnoxious male passenger will "not prevail, unless [obnoxious male passenger] was an employee or agent of the airline."  Meaning, that a Common Carrier would only be vicariously liable if the intentional tort was committed by an employee.  This would seem to exclude passengers.

If you check the answer in the back of the Torts chapter, choice (C) above is the correct answer. 

BUT...then they go and mess up my universe.  At the end of the answer explanation they say that "a Common Carrier may be held vicariously liable for the intentional torts of its passengers." 

WTF??

Dude, which one is it?  They can't BOTH be true, PMBR.  I have no idea whether that last sentence in the PMBR explanation is true or not true. All I do know is that if it IS true, then the answer sure as hell can not be (C).


HELP
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 22, 2007, 07:15:05 PM
Where's Alci when you need him? :P
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on June 22, 2007, 08:12:41 PM
Sands . . .

I went to the BarBRi outline . . .it doesn't cover this, I don't think.

Then, I thought about going to the PMBR outline, and figured that it might not be the most reliable thing at this point . . . since we are confused . . .

So I used my summer access to Westlaw to look up the relevant restatement provision . .

Restatement says that a common carrier is responsible for the intentional torts of a passenger, if they were foreseeable or if the common carrier knew about them. That would be under a theory of negligence, however, not battery. See the relevant restatement provision, especially comment E.  I would have linked it but you can't do that with Westlaw . . .

If the intentional torts create an unreasonable risk of physical harm, then the common carrier can be liable for negligence.

So, the bottom line is . . . no, there is not an error, its just not the most complete explanation in the world.

Hope this helps (and/or makes some sense!)




You know what . . .I thought that was a little weird, but I just kind of shrugged it off, because we didn't cover that in torts, so what do I know?

I'm going to look at it.  But I don't think the common carriers are responsible for the intentinoal torts of passengers . . . it doesn't fit in, broadly speaking, with tort law. . . .

Let me see . . .

OK, I need you guys' help on this one.  Torts Question #56 in the Red Book, I strongly believe contains an incorrect statement of law in its explanation.

Its the one where the attractive girl is riding on the plane and the obnoxious male passenger gets drunk from the stewardess handing him drinks, and then the obnoxious guy loses his mind and smacks the attractive girl in the mouth because she won't give in to his sexual advances.  You guys remember that one?

It has two questions.  In the first question (#55) the girl brings a suit against the airline for negligence.  The question is can she win?  That answer is of course, yes; the airline is a Common Carrier, and as such, will be vicariously liable for the negligence of its employees.  The stewardess was an airline employee, she kept serving the guy alcohol, she either knew or should have known that her conduct may result in harm to somebody, namely the victim.

That one I have no problem with. That's a straightforward application of Common Carrier liability for its employees. 

The second question, however (#56) is a huge contradiction.  It says, same facts but assume the victim brings a claim against the airline for Battery (an intentional tort).  What result?

The answer, as you might know, is that Common Carriers are NOT vicariously liable for the intentional torts of its passengers.  Answer choice (C) embodies this principle.  It says that the attractive female passenger who was hit in the mouth by the obnoxious male passenger will "not prevail, unless [obnoxious male passenger] was an employee or agent of the airline."  Meaning, that a Common Carrier would only be vicariously liable if the intentional tort was committed by an employee.  This would seem to exclude passengers.

If you check the answer in the back of the Torts chapter, choice (C) above is the correct answer. 

BUT...then they go and mess up my universe.  At the end of the answer explanation they say that "a Common Carrier may be held vicariously liable for the intentional torts of its passengers." 

WTF??

Dude, which one is it?  They can't BOTH be true, PMBR.  I have no idea whether that last sentence in the PMBR explanation is true or not true. All I do know is that if it IS true, then the answer sure as hell can not be (C).


HELP
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on June 22, 2007, 08:27:59 PM
I didn't look at the restatements (good idea, smujd). But I did look at an Emanuel's outline that I have. (Well, I looked at a few things, but most had nothing on this topic). Anyway, what I came up with was basically the same idea. That is, the common carrier could be liable under negligence for not protecting passengers, but not vicariously liable for the intentional torts.

The vicarious liability answer, D, goes to the the fact that they are vicarious liable, but liable for negligence, not for battery. (Had to read that one over a few times).
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 23, 2007, 10:25:26 AM
I think I am seeing what you guys are saying....SMU & Slacker, you guys are saying that the restatement says that a Common Carrier can be liable for the INTENTIONAL torts (such as batter) committed by its passengers BUT it will be held liable for those intentional torts because of their Negligence in preventing the battery, not the battery itself.  So the rule is, just as the answer states in the back of the book, a Common Carrier may be vicariously liable for the intentional torts of its passengers...

A more complete statement of the rule would be "a common carrier may be vicariously liable for the intentional torts of its passengers THROUGH NEGLIGENCE."


The other rule that I have seen is that common carriers may be vicariously liable for intentional torts committed by its employees.  As in, the airline could be sued for straight up battery if an employee halled off and punched somebody in the mouth.  (Thus, the answer (C) uses the words "not prevail, unless guy was an employee") If a passengers halls of and punches somebody in the mouth, the airline is still liable, but not for battery (because it didn't act through its agent); rather it will be liable for negligence in preventing the passenger-to-passenger battery.



OK.  Got it!


Good team effort right there!  That one took some brain power. ;D



Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on June 23, 2007, 05:35:12 PM
Its this kind of deep thought and analysis that will help us pass the first time!

 :) ;) :) ;)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on June 24, 2007, 08:28:28 AM
I think I am seeing what you guys are saying....SMU & Slacker, you guys are saying that the restatement says that a Common Carrier can be liable for the INTENTIONAL torts (such as batter) committed by its passengers BUT it will be held liable for those intentional torts because of their Negligence in preventing the battery, not the battery itself.  So the rule is, just as the answer states in the back of the book, a Common Carrier may be vicariously liable for the intentional torts of its passengers...

A more complete statement of the rule would be "a common carrier may be vicariously liable for the intentional torts of its passengers THROUGH NEGLIGENCE."


The other rule that I have seen is that common carriers may be vicariously liable for intentional torts committed by its employees.  As in, the airline could be sued for straight up battery if an employee halled off and punched somebody in the mouth.  (Thus, the answer (C) uses the words "not prevail, unless guy was an employee") If a passengers halls of and punches somebody in the mouth, the airline is still liable, but not for battery (because it didn't act through its agent); rather it will be liable for negligence in preventing the passenger-to-passenger battery.



OK.  Got it!


Good team effort right there!  That one took some brain power. ;D
Actually, I think I'm saying something slightly different:
- The common carrier CANNOT be liable for the intentional torts committed by passengers
- The common carrier CAN BE liable through negligence to an injured passenger who has suffered a battery from another passenger

It's a small change from what you're saying. The common carrier is not vicariously liable for the intentional torts. Instead, they're negligent in not preventing the injury from the intentional torts.

Saying that they're liable through vicarious liability for the intentional tort implies that they had some way to control or that there was some relationship with the party who committed the intentional tort, which does not seem to be supported.

And, of course, they remain liable through vicarious liability for intentional torts of their own employees.

Okay, I think we're good for one question, should it appear. That only leaves 199 more, right?

I spent yesterday working on essays. That's a whole 'nother world to look forward to.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: The Poster on June 24, 2007, 08:29:41 AM
This thread made me think of the chevy chase movie "Memoirs of an Invisible Man." That is all.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 25, 2007, 11:48:01 AM
I think I am seeing what you guys are saying....SMU & Slacker, you guys are saying that the restatement says that a Common Carrier can be liable for the INTENTIONAL torts (such as batter) committed by its passengers BUT it will be held liable for those intentional torts because of their Negligence in preventing the battery, not the battery itself.  So the rule is, just as the answer states in the back of the book, a Common Carrier may be vicariously liable for the intentional torts of its passengers...

A more complete statement of the rule would be "a common carrier may be vicariously liable for the intentional torts of its passengers THROUGH NEGLIGENCE."


The other rule that I have seen is that common carriers may be vicariously liable for intentional torts committed by its employees.  As in, the airline could be sued for straight up battery if an employee halled off and punched somebody in the mouth.  (Thus, the answer (C) uses the words "not prevail, unless guy was an employee") If a passengers halls of and punches somebody in the mouth, the airline is still liable, but not for battery (because it didn't act through its agent); rather it will be liable for negligence in preventing the passenger-to-passenger battery.



OK.  Got it!


Good team effort right there!  That one took some brain power. ;D
Actually, I think I'm saying something slightly different:
- The common carrier CANNOT be liable for the intentional torts committed by passengers
- The common carrier CAN BE liable through negligence to an injured passenger who has suffered a battery from another passenger

It's a small change from what you're saying. The common carrier is not vicariously liable for the intentional torts. Instead, they're negligent in not preventing the injury from the intentional torts.



No we're saying the exact same thing.  In total agreement.  Liable through negligence for failing to prevent foreseeable  battery from one passenger to another passenger.

One down, 199 more to go.



What do you guys need (raw score-wise) in your respective states in order to pass?

In New York you would need the following minimum scores:

120 Raw Score on MBE, combined with
6 out of 10 on all essays, combined with
6 out of 10 on MPT, combined with
27 out of 50 New York Multiple Choice (yes we have our own state specific multiple choice...how brilliant)



EDIT:  Change that to about 6.5 on all essays and 6.5 on the MPT.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on June 25, 2007, 03:28:10 PM
Sorry...I wasn't too awake. It was a good weekend. ;)

We need about the same, minus the NY questions (I'm pretty sure...)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on June 25, 2007, 06:09:07 PM
The BarBri MBE stinks.

I got less than half the questions right.

A sharp contrast from last night, where I got 61%.

Makes me wonder if I was fatigued, or if those questions really are harder. 
Ditto on all counts. (Except the 61%, since I didn't do questions last night.)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 25, 2007, 09:59:46 PM
Re-did the Con Law questions that I missed and got 41/50.

I'm seeing that for those answer explanations where I picked, for example (B), and they only discuss why choice (D) was the correct answer, on the re-take I chose choice (B) again because I don't have an explanation for why it is wrong.  Just an explanation for why (D) is correct.  They drive me and my study partner crazy with that sh!t sometimes.

I don't know if you guys have started in with the PMBR blue book yet, but it has answer explanations how they are supposed to be - they tell you which on was correct and why, and then they go through each of the other 3 answers and tell you why they were either not the best answer or why they were just flat out incorrect.  It's a breath of fresh air.

Also, I wrote to PMBR about the common carrier question at the same time as I posted it on here, and they just hit me back today and said the same thing that we already worked out!  Great minds!


I also wrote them about a couple of typo's and they wrote back that they were aware of the typo's.   ???
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 26, 2007, 07:53:59 AM
Where's Alci when you need him? :P

I think I am seeing what you guys are saying....SMU & Slacker, you guys are saying that the restatement says that a Common Carrier can be liable for the INTENTIONAL torts (such as batter) committed by its passengers BUT it will be held liable for those intentional torts because of their Negligence in preventing the battery, not the battery itself.  So the rule is, just as the answer states in the back of the book, a Common Carrier may be vicariously liable for the intentional torts of its passengers...

A more complete statement of the rule would be "a common carrier may be vicariously liable for the intentional torts of its passengers THROUGH NEGLIGENCE."


The other rule that I have seen is that common carriers may be vicariously liable for intentional torts committed by its employees.  As in, the airline could be sued for straight up battery if an employee halled off and punched somebody in the mouth.  (Thus, the answer (C) uses the words "not prevail, unless guy was an employee") If a passengers halls of and punches somebody in the mouth, the airline is still liable, but not for battery (because it didn't act through its agent); rather it will be liable for negligence in preventing the passenger-to-passenger battery.



OK.  Got it!


Good team effort right there!  That one took some brain power. ;D


Sounds right to me ;) (we didn't cover intentional torts, so I learned something new)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: t... on June 26, 2007, 08:02:25 AM
...
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 26, 2007, 05:51:05 PM
BarBri v. PMBR

Found a spot where they bump heads: Med Mal


In BarBri, the torts outlines say that Med Mal is proved by two standards: (1) a "community" standard for your average run of the mill Dr. and (2) a "national" standard applicable only to Dr.'s who are specialists in their field of medicine.

In PMBR, the blue book explanation to Torts #65 in so many words says that BarBri is wrong.  PMBR says that the "community" standard used to be the traditional standard to prove Med Mal for rural doctors, because it used to be "unfair" to hold rural doctors to the same degree of medical care as doctors in the big cities who have access to technological advancements in medicine.  However, it goes on to say that with the advent of fast access to information (ie. the internet, the telephone, the fax machine) there is only one standard to measure whether a Dr. has failed to meet the duty of care - that being the duty of care that any Dr. in the profession would have in like circumstances, in other words, what BarBri refers to as the "national" standard that only applies (according to BarBri) to specialists.


Somebody don't know what the @#!* they talkin' 'bout.  That's all I'm saying.

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 26, 2007, 07:19:12 PM
I think we learned the PMBR view.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on June 26, 2007, 09:15:48 PM
Lol.  I need ya'll to fix the typos.  I found one today going over the torts question--the explanation was missing a not.  I'm glad that I actually knew the law because I would have learned the wrong rule. 

For the most part, though, the PMBR questions seem to be helping me learn the law.  I guess we can't be perfect.

Anyhow, has anyone worked any of the questions from the actual old MBE's yet? I'd be curious as to how people stack up on those compared to practice questions.

We had the BarBri prepare for essays and final review today (lol . . .even though we still have a week of BarBri left).  The instructor reminded us that we only need a 675 to pass, and we don't necessarily have to  "pass" each section in order to pass the exam. 675 points is the goal.

Still, however, its still a pretty high goal for an exam that will determine entrance into the profession.

They also told us that the highest raw score ever on the MBE was like 186, and the lowest was a 43 . . . . I was like, dang. Who scores a 43?  Guessing should yield a better score than that, if you've been through three years of law school. . . that's like 21%.  Crazy.

Average is about 128 correct on the Multistate.




Re-did the Con Law questions that I missed and got 41/50.

I'm seeing that for those answer explanations where I picked, for example (B), and they only discuss why choice (D) was the correct answer, on the re-take I chose choice (B) again because I don't have an explanation for why it is wrong.  Just an explanation for why (D) is correct.  They drive me and my study partner crazy with that sh!t sometimes.

I don't know if you guys have started in with the PMBR blue book yet, but it has answer explanations how they are supposed to be - they tell you which on was correct and why, and then they go through each of the other 3 answers and tell you why they were either not the best answer or why they were just flat out incorrect.  It's a breath of fresh air.

Also, I wrote to PMBR about the common carrier question at the same time as I posted it on here, and they just hit me back today and said the same thing that we already worked out!  Great minds!


I also wrote them about a couple of typo's and they wrote back that they were aware of the typo's.   ???
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on June 26, 2007, 09:24:46 PM
I ran into one of my professors today. She was funny. "All you need is a D; no one will ever know your score."

Sort of encouraging...althoug I think it's more like a "C" than a "D".

We had the BarBri MBE review today and there was a med mal question. She said community standard for specialists. She is a contractor, and not speaking for BarBri (she disclaimed that at the start of the day).

I haven't made it to the blue book yet...I need to get in gear so I can get there soon.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 26, 2007, 09:59:38 PM
665 required in NY baby!!!    That's a straight up "D", so you're right, it's kind of relaxing (for lack of a better word) to know that you don't have to ace the damn thing.  Just pass.  That's it. Just pass.  Sounds simple enough. (even though we know its slightly more complicated than that) 

I think it only freaks us out when we think about the minutia of all the different subjects of what we have to know.  That's when folks start buggin out.  I was just talking to one of my homegirls who passed last year and she got a 121 on the MBE (raw score), which was a 128 scaled.  If you think about that, that's 60%, or a 30/50 on the PMBR questions that you do everyday.  If you can do just a little better than that, you have an even better shot.

So it is possible.  We just have to keep reminding ourselves of that.


I think the most important thing with the whole bar is to know exactly what is coming and, more importantly, how it's coming, and spend your energies on as much of that as you possible can.  If you don't know what's coming, and you are trying to memorize everything that you get from barbri and pmbr and whoever else, then you're embarking upon mission impossible.


Another thing that is kind of obvious but worth repeating is, with respect to the MBE vs. the Essays, one of the graduates from my school just reminded me that the Essays are going to be graded subjectively by actual attorneys, so there's room for fluctuation. Whereas with the MBE, its the one aspect of the exam where you have the opportunity to actually earn whatever you are able to earn without any subjectivity or bias.  So, in essence, the goal should be to score as high as possible on the MBE in order to afford you as much "wiggle room" as possible for the Essay graders.

I think we pretty much knew that already but never hurts to hear it again.




 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 27, 2007, 03:21:19 PM
GOT THE LAPTOP LOTTERY!!!!  WOOO HOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm a second round draft pick baby and that's alright by me!!!  It was going to be a mother trying to write this thing by hand. :) ;D :D
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 27, 2007, 03:28:00 PM
Congrats!  How many get it?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 27, 2007, 03:32:15 PM
Thanks, I have no idea exactly...the NYBE's claim that most people who request to use a laptop get it.  They only have testing sites in Manhattan, Buffalo and Long Island though.  No site for Albany, which is where I would have been going until today.


Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on June 27, 2007, 04:25:46 PM
Congrats on the laptop win.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 27, 2007, 04:27:40 PM
Thanks man.  It came on a pretty good day too - I was just over here having a panic attack looking at the calender and started getting down in the dumps and then I got the email and thought "maybe there's hope afterall, damnit."
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on June 27, 2007, 04:33:27 PM
It seems like such a long time, yet such a short time, remaining.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 27, 2007, 04:48:37 PM
I know exactly what you mean.  This will undoubtedly be the quickest month we've ever experienced in life.  I just hope I can keep all this crap straight in my head for another month.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on June 27, 2007, 07:47:26 PM
I know what you mean by that.

Yeah, I'm at about 60% now--the thing is, the nerves are starting to get to me.  This is going to be a fast month.  June went by so fast, and July is going to be even faster.  Oh my. 

That whole panic attack thing, though . . . I'm there.  Less than a month.  Its like the days keep getting shorter and shorter . . .  Plus, the consumer law lecture today was not very helpful, so I've elected to take the evening off . . .while I still can. :/


I know exactly what you mean.  This will undoubtedly be the quickest month we've ever experienced in life.  I just hope I can keep all this crap straight in my head for another month.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on June 27, 2007, 07:47:54 PM
Oh, and congrats on winning the laptop lottery Sands.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: e-redwood on June 28, 2007, 12:38:04 AM
Congrats on the lottery Sands!!!!  You all can do this (pass the bar).  Yall have been studying so hard!  Stay positive!!!!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 29, 2007, 06:52:04 PM
105 out of 200 on the BarBri simulated MBE!  Have already broke out the Henny & Coke.  Contemplating jumping in front of the PATH train :'(.


Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on June 29, 2007, 07:04:20 PM
question--can you waive into DC from any state bar or is it based off of certain ones?  how does that work exactly?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on June 29, 2007, 08:12:32 PM
Quote
What are the eligibility requirements to apply for admission without examination?
There are two provisions:

a. Having been a member in good standing of a Bar of a court of general jurisdiction in any state or territory of the United States for a period of five years immediately preceding the filing of your application.

or

b. Having been awarded a J.D. or LL.B. degree from a law school which, at the time of the awarding of the degree, was approved by the American Bar Association; having been admitted to the practice of law in any state or territory of the United States upon the successful completion of a written bar examination, with a scaled score of 133 or more on the Multistate Bar Examination (MBE) which the state or territory deems to have been taken as part of such examination, and a 75 scaled score on the Multistate Professional Responsibility Examination (MPRE).


More here: http://www.dcappeals.gov/dccourts/appeals/coa/faq.jsp
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on June 30, 2007, 09:59:49 AM
Sands, you're in good shape--105 is average already! And you still have a month to go!

I got my admission ticket for the bar in the mail yesterday . . .  starting to get a little nervous!

And they make it worse by telling you in the instructions what to do if you fail.  I'm like, I don't need that negative energy, people.

Anyway, good luck to everyone still studying . . . We will all pass-- the first time.

By the way, how soon does everyone get results back?  Texas takes forever .. .  we won't know until the first Friday in November.

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on June 30, 2007, 10:14:02 AM
The MBE brochure on the National Conference of Bar Examiners has 30 free questions in it, if anyone is interested.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 30, 2007, 10:52:50 AM
Sands, you're in good shape--105 is average already! And you still have a month to go!

I got my admission ticket for the bar in the mail yesterday . . .  starting to get a little nervous!

And they make it worse by telling you in the instructions what to do if you fail.  I'm like, I don't need that negative energy, people.

Anyway, good luck to everyone still studying . . . We will all pass-- the first time.

By the way, how soon does everyone get results back?  Texas takes forever .. .  we won't know until the first Friday in November.




I guess you're right but its kind of hard to see it from that angle.  I feel like for having done 50 q's per day every single day for the past month straight then you would expect to be a little better than just "average."  Maybe I'm talking reckless, but I feel like I could have scored a 105 from day 1 before we did any studying at all.

I guess I'm still waiting to see this miraculous day where the work pays off.  What do we have to do exactly to get over the "average" hump? 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on June 30, 2007, 02:32:42 PM
I understand the frustration, Sands. Right now, I think I tend to overanalyze things. I'm spending some time this weekend going over some older stuff to try to break myself of that.

For those interested in playing along, a question:
Liz and her boyfriend, Lucus, were having dinner at the Golden Dragon Chinese restaurant in Chinatown when she excused herself to go to the bathroom. The restaurant was owned and operated by Wong. As Liz was walking past a table where Elliot, another customer, was seated, she slipped and fell on an egg roll that was lying on the floor. When she fell, her head struck a serving tray which was located in the aisle. The fall caused Liz to suffer a severe concussion. Elliot knew that the egg roll was on teh floor and, although he could have done so, did not warn Liz.

1) If Liz asserts a claim against Wong for the injuries she suffered from the fall, she will most likely
a) recover, because the egg roll on the floor constituted an unsafe condition of the premises
b) recover, if the egg roll was on the floor for a substantial period of time before the accident
c) not recover, unless Wong knew the egg roll was on the floor
d) not recover, if Elliot was responsible for knocking the egg roll off his table

2) if Liz asserts a claim against Elliot for the injuries suffered as a result of her fall, will she recover?
a) No, unless Elliot did something after the accident that made Liz's condition worse
b) Yes, because Elliot could have prevented the accident without endangering himself
c) Yes, because Elliot could have warned Liz of the unsafe condition and failed to do so
d) Yes, if Elliot had carelessly knocked the egg roll off the table onto the floor
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on June 30, 2007, 02:45:12 PM
Remember, the goal is not to  be above average.

The goal is to pass.


Sands, you're in good shape--105 is average already! And you still have a month to go!

I got my admission ticket for the bar in the mail yesterday . . .  starting to get a little nervous!

And they make it worse by telling you in the instructions what to do if you fail.  I'm like, I don't need that negative energy, people.

Anyway, good luck to everyone still studying . . . We will all pass-- the first time.

By the way, how soon does everyone get results back?  Texas takes forever .. .  we won't know until the first Friday in November.




I guess you're right but its kind of hard to see it from that angle.  I feel like for having done 50 q's per day every single day for the past month straight then you would expect to be a little better than just "average."  Maybe I'm talking reckless, but I feel like I could have scored a 105 from day 1 before we did any studying at all.

I guess I'm still waiting to see this miraculous day where the work pays off.  What do we have to do exactly to get over the "average" hump? 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 30, 2007, 03:18:09 PM
I understand the frustration, Sands. Right now, I think I tend to overanalyze things. I'm spending some time this weekend going over some older stuff to try to break myself of that.

For those interested in playing along, a question:
Liz and her boyfriend, Lucus, were having dinner at the Golden Dragon Chinese restaurant in Chinatown when she excused herself to go to the bathroom. The restaurant was owned and operated by Wong. As Liz was walking past a table where Elliot, another customer, was seated, she slipped and fell on an egg roll that was lying on the floor. When she fell, her head struck a serving tray which was located in the aisle. The fall caused Liz to suffer a severe concussion. Elliot knew that the egg roll was on teh floor and, although he could have done so, did not warn Liz.

1) If Liz asserts a claim against Wong for the injuries she suffered from the fall, she will most likely
a) recover, because the egg roll on the floor constituted an unsafe condition of the premises
b) recover, if the egg roll was on the floor for a substantial period of time before the accident
c) not recover, unless Wong knew the egg roll was on the floor
d) not recover, if Elliot was responsible for knocking the egg roll off his table

2) if Liz asserts a claim against Elliot for the injuries suffered as a result of her fall, will she recover?
a) No, unless Elliot did something after the accident that made Liz's condition worse
b) Yes, because Elliot could have prevented the accident without endangering himself
c) Yes, because Elliot could have warned Liz of the unsafe condition and failed to do so
d) Yes, if Elliot had carelessly knocked the egg roll off the table onto the floor


Wow I actually remember that one.  As I recall, I got the first question correct but missed the second.


I think my biggest problem fueling the frustration is self-doubt.  As in, before the simulated BarBri MBE, I was kinda just pacing along, hitting 50 to 60% on all my practice MBE runs for the month of June, but I was reviewing my answers and making an effort to learn what I didn't know or was unsure of, thus the expectation to break the 50-60% mark on the BarBri MBE.  Nope. Didn't quite happen.  Hit the 50% mark here as well.  It wouldn't have been so bad if my study partner hadn't gone off and hit the 60% on me.  She scored a 120.

Before we took it, they said the numbers just came in from Cali and the average Cali score this summer is a 110. They said that, traditionally, New York always does less than Cali on the simulated MBE because Cali students have less topics and more time to commit towards MBE questions.  With 28 topics to study, I could see how that might play a factor.  Who knows.  It all a crap-shoot.

What I did find useful that I wanted to share with you guys is my approach to reviewing the questions that I got wrong.  I decided after this simulated BarBri exam to try something new and so far its been pretty helpful.  I take all the questions that I got wrong and break them up into 3 camps:

1. I Definitely know the Rule, but just missed it on this question due to a slight reading comprehension error
2. I am familiar with the Rule but still Fuzzy - need more review
3. I absolutely did not know the Rule for this question at all - need to learn


The Category 1 problems are no biggie.  A quick 10 second re-read of the last sentence or two of a fact pattern would have sent you immediately to the correct answer.  These don't make me feel so bad. That's an easy problem to fix on the real exam.

I find  most of my problems are in Category 2.  For example, I know Mortgages, I know assignments, and I know conveyances, but I'm still kinda fuzzy on those dame Recording Notice Statute problems.  Definitely need to spend some more time there.  These are also the type of problems that I find I keep getting wrong over and over because I don't take the 30 minutes or so necessary to sit my ass down and review this concept of the law.  If its a frequent subject, like Individual Rights on Con Law, Hearsay on Evidence, or Anticipatory Repudiation on K's, its worth putting the PMBR book down for a minute and taking it to the lecture outlines for a minute.  Hell, I've even broke out the E&E's for some of these jokers.

Every now and again, even after a month of studying, I find an occasional Category 3 problem.  Thankfully, not that many, but they still exist. For example, I just reviewed my Crim Law section, and of the 33 questions, I found that on 3 of them I completely did not know the rule at all. Coincidentally, 2 of those 3 questions were about Accomplice Liability - apparently something I either know nothing about, or, if I did know it it's been so long that I have completely forgotten about it.  (Crim was our first BarBri subject)





question--can you waive into DC from any state bar or is it based off of certain ones?  how does that work exactly?

It's hard to say, every state is different.  DC is the one "state" that basically allows everybody to waive in so long as you've taken the bar somewhere in the US.

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on June 30, 2007, 03:24:47 PM
thanks Sands.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 30, 2007, 03:45:29 PM
I understand the frustration, Sands. Right now, I think I tend to overanalyze things. I'm spending some time this weekend going over some older stuff to try to break myself of that.

For those interested in playing along, a question:
Liz and her boyfriend, Lucus, were having dinner at the Golden Dragon Chinese restaurant in Chinatown when she excused herself to go to the bathroom. The restaurant was owned and operated by Wong. As Liz was walking past a table where Elliot, another customer, was seated, she slipped and fell on an egg roll that was lying on the floor. When she fell, her head struck a serving tray which was located in the aisle. The fall caused Liz to suffer a severe concussion. Elliot knew that the egg roll was on teh floor and, although he could have done so, did not warn Liz.

1) If Liz asserts a claim against Wong for the injuries she suffered from the fall, she will most likely
a) recover, because the egg roll on the floor constituted an unsafe condition of the premises
b) recover, if the egg roll was on the floor for a substantial period of time before the accident
c) not recover, unless Wong knew the egg roll was on the floor
d) not recover, if Elliot was responsible for knocking the egg roll off his table

2) if Liz asserts a claim against Elliot for the injuries suffered as a result of her fall, will she recover?
a) No, unless Elliot did something after the accident that made Liz's condition worse
b) Yes, because Elliot could have prevented the accident without endangering himself
c) Yes, because Elliot could have warned Liz of the unsafe condition and failed to do so
d) Yes, if Elliot had carelessly knocked the egg roll off the table onto the floor

I'm going to say B and A, unless NY has one of those silly good samaritan laws.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on June 30, 2007, 10:12:18 PM
I don't want to haul out the book right now (it's packed up, and heavy, n' stuff). If I recall, #1 is b - which is duty of land possessor to invitee; #2 is d - which would be negligence. That is, if Elliot were negligent in knocking off the eggroll he could be liable; if he had nothing to do with the eggroll on the floor, then he has no duty to Liz.

For the MBE, there's no specific state law, just majority and, sometimes, minority rules.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 01, 2007, 08:33:33 AM
For the MBE, there's no specific state law, just majority and, sometimes, minority rules.

Oh yes, I always forget about that.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: cui bono? on July 01, 2007, 02:56:21 PM
http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php/topic,90101.0.html

This thread was started by e-redwood in honor of you guys.  To add my own .02:

You guys that are taking the bar have been a tremendous help to  everyone on the board, including me.  If someone has a question, you answer to the best of your ability without making anyone feel stupid for not knowing it themselves.  I admire you guys and I hope you stay encouraged during this trying time.  {this too shall pass}.  And I honestly have no doubt in my mind that you guys are going to do well and I'm always right!   ;) :-* :)    People like you are always rewarded and the bar will be no exception. Have the same unwaivering faith in yourself as the rest of us of BLSD have in you.   
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on July 01, 2007, 04:18:13 PM
Awwww . . .thanks for the encouragement. I think I speak for at least myself and sands when I say that we just try to get the info out so that it can be even a little easier for ya'll, then we will do what we can.     

http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php/topic,90101.0.html

This thread was started by e-redwood in honor of you guys.  To add my own .02:

You guys that are taking the bar have been a tremendous help to  everyone on the board, including me.  If someone has a question, you answer to the best of your ability without making anyone feel stupid for not knowing it themselves.  I admire you guys and I hope you stay encouraged during this trying time.  {this too shall pass}.  And I honestly have no doubt in my mind that you guys are going to do well and I'm always right!   ;) :-* :)    People like you are always rewarded and the bar will be no exception. Have the same unwaivering faith in yourself as the rest of us of BLSD have in you.   
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: cui bono? on July 02, 2007, 12:08:35 PM
 :)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 03, 2007, 04:24:05 PM



Awwww . . .thanks for the encouragement. I think I speak for at least myself and sands when I say that we just try to get the info out so that it can be even a little easier for ya'll, then we will do what we can.     

http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php/topic,90101.0.html

This thread was started by e-redwood in honor of you guys.  To add my own .02:

You guys that are taking the bar have been a tremendous help to  everyone on the board, including me.  If someone has a question, you answer to the best of your ability without making anyone feel stupid for not knowing it themselves.  I admire you guys and I hope you stay encouraged during this trying time.  {this too shall pass}.  And I honestly have no doubt in my mind that you guys are going to do well and I'm always right!   ;) :-* :)    People like you are always rewarded and the bar will be no exception. Have the same unwaivering faith in yourself as the rest of us of BLSD have in you.   

Right.  Next year or a couple years from now you guys can come back to this joker and dig up our commentary and hopefully find it useful. 

In light of the recent ass-whuppin from BarBri's simulated MBE, I reviewed all of the questions that missed (all 95 of them!) made my notes to self, then I went back and redid the first 33 questions of each of the 6 subjects in the PMBR Red Book.  Results:

Crim Law: 23/33
Evidence: 24/33
Con Law: 29/34
Property: 26/34
Contracts: 29/34
Torts: 29/34

Total: 160/202

As a reminder for those tuning in at home, a 120/200 is the average raw score, a 130/200 is considered a "safe" score, and a 140/200 gives you over a 90% chance of passing.  So...I'm feeling a lot better than I did Friday.  Plan to keep hitting 99 questions/day, doing 3 subjects (33 each) one day, and then the other 3 subjects (33 each) the next day.  Since my mind seems to operate kind of like a sieve, this is probably the best way for me to keep all 6 subjects fresh in my head over the next 3 weeks.

In the meanwhile, I'm trying to learn as much of these NY essay topics as possible.  Can't even front, I pulled out the E&E's and the Flash Cards for these jokers.  Those two supplements have always seemed to work for me so I figured, why stop now? 


How's everybody feeling?


Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: jd06 on July 03, 2007, 04:28:46 PM
Hey Burning Sands,

Keep the faith.  When the BarBri folks tell you that their simulated MBE exam is tougher than the real deal, they're not lying.  I didn't even finish the BarBri MBE's and, just a few weeks later, I breezed through the bar exam with time to spare.  I found the bar exam to be exponentially more doable. I have no doubt you will as well.... 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 03, 2007, 04:52:54 PM
I like how you're talkin!

Tell us more.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on July 03, 2007, 07:40:26 PM
Feeling a little better.  I am taking today and tomorrow off so that I can start fresh with the barbri cram program on Saturday morning.  (After the 6 month anniversary celebrated on Friday evening).

How is everyone planning to spend the last few weeks before the bar? Will you follow the barbri study plan (essentially 2 rotations of all subjects) or are you doing something more tailored to your strengths and weaknesses?

I am still scoring at about 55-60% on the practice questions, but I am going back to review substantive material, in the areas that I have been missing, on all of the multistate topics.  I've never been the best standardized test taker in the world, but I will manage.  Somehow I always manage to do alright. :)

The best part about all of this cramming, is that I can do it at home. I don't have to fight traffic for those two weeks! :)

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 04, 2007, 04:13:04 PM
Taking a pause from the MBE training and am really taking some time to sit down with Wills & Trusts since it is ALWAYS an essay for us.  I plan to focus on the Essay question materials (corporations, crim, contracts, NY practice) for the next few days, mixing in the MBE questions whenever I can, but I need to digest this information thoroughly at least once so that I can review it over and over again briefly over the next few weeks as I'm doing MBE practice questions. 

Speaking of the MBE, somebody forwarded this to me, pretty interesting.  The copyright infringement suit between the MBE makers and PMBR:


http://www.paed.uscourts.gov/documents/opinions/06D1065P.pdf

http://roguebarristers.typepad.com/roguebarristers/2006/08/why_pmbr_doesnt.html



Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on July 05, 2007, 03:45:52 PM
I still have 4 more days of barbri...but also doing some MBE review prior to the PMBR 3-day.

This is not a fun process. I'm starting to do more essays, also, for the non-MBE subjects.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on July 05, 2007, 06:39:52 PM
Wow. . . that makes me glad that I'm doing the PMBR 3 day. 

I say, if they have that problem, they should stop using the same questions over and over again. Or, if they would release more of the actual exams, then they would be making the money instead of PMBR (you know that we would be buying them). 

Yes, copyright infringement is wrong, but like I said, they could be making the profit themselves . . .

Taking a pause from the MBE training and am really taking some time to sit down with Wills & Trusts since it is ALWAYS an essay for us.  I plan to focus on the Essay question materials (corporations, crim, contracts, NY practice) for the next few days, mixing in the MBE questions whenever I can, but I need to digest this information thoroughly at least once so that I can review it over and over again briefly over the next few weeks as I'm doing MBE practice questions. 

Speaking of the MBE, somebody forwarded this to me, pretty interesting.  The copyright infringement suit between the MBE makers and PMBR:


http://www.paed.uscourts.gov/documents/opinions/06D1065P.pdf

http://roguebarristers.typepad.com/roguebarristers/2006/08/why_pmbr_doesnt.html




Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 05, 2007, 07:40:07 PM
I still have 4 more days of barbri...but also doing some MBE review prior to the PMBR 3-day.

This is not a fun process. I'm starting to do more essays, also, for the non-MBE subjects.

We sound like we're doing the exact same thing.  Sat down with Wills yesterday and finished it up today.  I know every conceivable way to keep your wife out of your estate after you die in New York.  Took a pause and did 99 MBE questions which only took about 2 hours, now I'm right back into reviewing the next major essay topic for us - Trusts.

Tomorrow I hope to hit Corporations, do another 99 MBE questions, and afterwards either finish up Corporations or move on to the next major essay topic - NY Practice.


It's slowly but surely coming together.  The July pressure is lighting a fire under my azz.

Thought I'd share a note from one of my classmates who passed both NY and NJ last summer '06:

"just write what you know. and hopefully it will come close.  if you really have no idea, just write something that at least answers the question even if you know its not right.  don't worry about the barbri scoring, i don't think i made it over 4/10 for every essay.
 
here is how i studied:
 
June - mostly went to barbri (maybe missed 2 classes) and re-typed my notes in the afternoon, went out on the weekends and generally didn't feel like i was getting it.
 
July- woke up in  a cold sweat on the night july 3rd and realized i had to get my *&^% together and started making notecards for every subject again.  studied my ass off for the mbe and still did pretty badly. and didn't talk to anyone.
 
turns out i knew most of the ny bar questions, had no idea on the civ pro nj questions and thought i failed that.  most people that actually studied (and took a bar review class) passed."
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on July 05, 2007, 07:46:10 PM
Wow. . . that makes me glad that I'm doing the PMBR 3 day. 

I say, if they have that problem, they should stop using the same questions over and over again. Or, if they would release more of the actual exams, then they would be making the money instead of PMBR (you know that we would be buying them). 

Yes, copyright infringement is wrong, but like I said, they could be making the profit themselves . . .

But are they getting a greater benefit by not having to write new questions?

And Sands...thanks for posting the note. Everyone keeps telling me "you'll be okay." I'm not feeling so okay, but I'll feel worse if I do nothing.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 05, 2007, 07:47:07 PM
Wow. . . that makes me glad that I'm doing the PMBR 3 day. 

I say, if they have that problem, they should stop using the same questions over and over again. Or, if they would release more of the actual exams, then they would be making the money instead of PMBR (you know that we would be buying them). 

Yes, copyright infringement is wrong, but like I said, they could be making the profit themselves . . .

Taking a pause from the MBE training and am really taking some time to sit down with Wills & Trusts since it is ALWAYS an essay for us.  I plan to focus on the Essay question materials (corporations, crim, contracts, NY practice) for the next few days, mixing in the MBE questions whenever I can, but I need to digest this information thoroughly at least once so that I can review it over and over again briefly over the next few weeks as I'm doing MBE practice questions. 

Speaking of the MBE, somebody forwarded this to me, pretty interesting.  The copyright infringement suit between the MBE makers and PMBR:


http://www.paed.uscourts.gov/documents/opinions/06D1065P.pdf

http://roguebarristers.typepad.com/roguebarristers/2006/08/why_pmbr_doesnt.html





No doubt.  I thought the interesting part in the opinion talked about the MBE process...it said something like only 2 or 3 people actually get together and make up each section on the MBE.  That's wild to me.  What if those 2 cats have a warped way of viewing life in general, which, based on how these questions read, would not be too far of a stretch...


Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 05, 2007, 07:55:52 PM
And for those still playing at home:


[Before you even ask, a subpoena duces tecum is simply a request/demand for you to bring certain documents to court.]


A federal grand jury in Washington, D.C. was convened to investigate the alleged bribery by the Libyan government of Jordan Holmes, special advisor to the President of the United States for Middle Eastern affairs.  The grand jury was probing the Libyan government's efforts to obtain delivery of American made transport planes, which were embargoed by the State Department.  The Justice Department was trying to ascertain whether the Libyan government had offered bribes to Holmes and other members of the Administration in order to secure delivery of the transport planes.

On March 4, 2003, Holmes testified before the grand jury that both he and the President had several conferences with Mohammed Kakuri, the Libyan ambassador to the United States, at the White House.  He stated that during these meetings, they discussed problems in the Middle East in general.  He, however, denied any involvement in the Libyan government's efforts to secure delivery of the transport planes.

Two weeks after Holmes testified, the grand jury returned an indictment, charging him and two other members of the Presidential cabinet with conspiracy to commit bribery and conspiracy to defraud the United States government.  A special prosecutor was then appointed by the Justice Department to prepare the Government's case.

On April 15th, upon motion by the special prosecutor, a subpoena duces tecum was issued directing the President to produce the minutes of his meetings with Holmes and Ambassador Kukuri.  The special prosecutor was able to determine the exact dates of the meetings because the White House daily logs and appointment records had been previously subpoenaed.  On April 20th, the President released several edited transcripts of his conversations with Holmes and Kakuri.  On the same day, the President's counsel filed a motion to quash the subpoena duces tecum, claiming an absolute executive privilege.

Which of the following is the most accurate statement with regard to the President's claim of executive privilege?
(A) Under the separation of powers doctrine, the federal judiciary is without authority to review an assertion of executive privilege by the President.
(B) The need for the confidentiality of high level communications will sustain an absolute unqualified Presidential privilege of immunity from judicial process on all occasions.
(C) Article III does not vest the federal courts with power to resolve a nonjusticiable intra-branch dispute.
(D) Article II does not vest the President with an absolute, unqualified privilege to withhold evidence from a criminal prosecution.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 05, 2007, 08:12:03 PM
I'mma have to say D.  Watergate tapes and such.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on July 05, 2007, 09:12:32 PM
 :D :D :D :D :D


Wow. . . that makes me glad that I'm doing the PMBR 3 day. 

I say, if they have that problem, they should stop using the same questions over and over again. Or, if they would release more of the actual exams, then they would be making the money instead of PMBR (you know that we would be buying them). 

Yes, copyright infringement is wrong, but like I said, they could be making the profit themselves . . .

Taking a pause from the MBE training and am really taking some time to sit down with Wills & Trusts since it is ALWAYS an essay for us.  I plan to focus on the Essay question materials (corporations, crim, contracts, NY practice) for the next few days, mixing in the MBE questions whenever I can, but I need to digest this information thoroughly at least once so that I can review it over and over again briefly over the next few weeks as I'm doing MBE practice questions. 

Speaking of the MBE, somebody forwarded this to me, pretty interesting.  The copyright infringement suit between the MBE makers and PMBR:


http://www.paed.uscourts.gov/documents/opinions/06D1065P.pdf

http://roguebarristers.typepad.com/roguebarristers/2006/08/why_pmbr_doesnt.html





No doubt.  I thought the interesting part in the opinion talked about the MBE process...it said something like only 2 or 3 people actually get together and make up each section on the MBE.  That's wild to me.  What if those 2 cats have a warped way of viewing life in general, which, based on how these questions read, would not be too far of a stretch...



Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Nowhere Man on July 05, 2007, 09:21:10 PM
(D) Article II does not vest the President with an absolute, unqualified privilege to withhold evidence from a criminal prosecution.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 05, 2007, 10:00:34 PM
Very good. I see you guys know your Con Law.  United States v. Nixon.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: jd06 on July 06, 2007, 09:46:55 AM
Taking a pause from the MBE training and am really taking some time to sit down with Wills & Trusts since it is ALWAYS an essay for us.  I plan to focus on the Essay question materials (corporations, crim, contracts, NY practice) for the next few days, mixing in the MBE questions whenever I can, but I need to digest this information thoroughly at least once so that I can review it over and over again briefly over the next few weeks as I'm doing MBE practice questions. 

Speaking of the MBE, somebody forwarded this to me, pretty interesting.  The copyright infringement suit between the MBE makers and PMBR:


http://www.paed.uscourts.gov/documents/opinions/06D1065P.pdf

http://roguebarristers.typepad.com/roguebarristers/2006/08/why_pmbr_doesnt.html





Good stuff, Sands.  Interesting that Kaplan purchased PMBR.  I guess that's how he'll pay off the judgment.  Is Feinberg still doing the lecturing? He's a character and I think most of us, after he goes on and on about how many exams he's sat through, got the sense his "methodology" wasn't all on the up and up.  But I'll tell you what, last year (July '06) he had the MBE down cold.  It was, as the student quoted in the opinion said, "deja vu."       












Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 06, 2007, 03:55:42 PM
Taking a pause from the MBE training and am really taking some time to sit down with Wills & Trusts since it is ALWAYS an essay for us.  I plan to focus on the Essay question materials (corporations, crim, contracts, NY practice) for the next few days, mixing in the MBE questions whenever I can, but I need to digest this information thoroughly at least once so that I can review it over and over again briefly over the next few weeks as I'm doing MBE practice questions. 

Speaking of the MBE, somebody forwarded this to me, pretty interesting.  The copyright infringement suit between the MBE makers and PMBR:


http://www.paed.uscourts.gov/documents/opinions/06D1065P.pdf

http://roguebarristers.typepad.com/roguebarristers/2006/08/why_pmbr_doesnt.html





Good stuff, Sands.  Interesting that Kaplan purchased PMBR.  I guess that's how he'll pay off the judgment.  Is Feinberg still doing the lecturing? He's a character and I think most of us, after he goes on and on about how many exams he's sat through, got the sense his "methodology" wasn't all on the up and up.  But I'll tell you what, last year (July '06) he had the MBE down cold.  It was, as the student quoted in the opinion said, "deja vu."       





That's interesting that you say you felt the July '06 was defa vu because many PMBR students said that it looked different from PMBR, as if the MBE responded to the copyright  suit by changing the look of their questions.




In other related news, thought I would pass this on.  These are not the views of Burning Sands or BLSD. I'm just the messenger:








new york craigslist > long island > rants & raves > @#!* the NY Bar Exam
last modified: Thu, 6 Jul 23:54 EDT


@#!* the NY Bar Exam

Reply to: pers-179225836@craigslist.org
Date: 2006-07-06, 11:54PM EDT


...and @#!* the board of law examiners. These motherfuckers have nothing better to do in life than ruin the summer of 10,000 starving law school graduates every year.

Hey assholes... ever wonder why half of all law school exams are open book? Because, lawyers don't need to memorize every f-ing thing... we go to law school to learn how to LOOK THINGS UP!!!!

@#!* your stupid model answers. @#!* you and the 37 exceptions to hearsay. Take Blackacre and shove it up your ass. Tell your intended beneficiary to blow me. Would my foot up one of your asses constitute a material breach? If NY has such an indelible right to counsel, why do we have so many friggin' convicts? Did those guys pass your little quiz, you fucks? Oh, and by the way, thanks for the f-ing typing lottery... and don't worry about all the people who didn't get in... we do not feel DIASADVANTAGED in any way by having to write out six f-ing essays. Like that's really fair.

Stay out of my wingspan... I'm pissed off.

Signed,
A reasonably prudent law school graduate


this is in or around a law library near you
no -- it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests


Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: 2Lacoste on July 06, 2007, 04:07:12 PM
 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

hi-fn-larious
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on July 06, 2007, 10:07:27 PM
Remember 4ish years ago when the LSAT was the big challenge?

At this point, I wouldn't mind a bar with a games section.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on July 07, 2007, 11:45:15 AM
Lol . . . that's what the MBE questions feel like anyway.   


As for the post about the New York Bar Exam . . . hillarious . . .probably the view of at least one person in all 50 states.

Remember 4ish years ago when the LSAT was the big challenge?

At this point, I wouldn't mind a bar with a games section.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 07, 2007, 02:00:50 PM
Ahhh...the LSAT...the good old days!   ;D  A games section might be cool right about now...spice things up a bit.

I'm over here straight up MEMORIZING stuff like a 6th grader.  Whenever they ask me any question about Wills, any question about Trusts, any question about Contracts, Corporations, Family Law, NY Practice....etc. I have a ready-to-go bible verse on standby in my brain that I regurgitate whether it has a damn thing to do with the question or not.  All about getting those points, man.  points points points.  You want to give us a closed book exam you're gonna get a closed book answer.

I figure, my essays are going to be the biggest crap shoot of them all, so in the meanwhile I've still been at those MBE's faithfully, trying to get those stupid details down. 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on July 07, 2007, 04:55:59 PM
Essays?  A crapshoot?

I'm the total opposite. 

I have been studying all day today.  Contracts questions this morning, Wills and estate administration all afternoon. This is my first real break.  Although they tell us not to take breaks, I still need my sanity.  So I get up earlier to make up the difference in time.

Once I actually start committing this stuff to memory next week, it should be pretty reasonable on the essays . . . now, the MBE, that's the real crapshoot. In Texas all of the essays for like the past 10 years are online, and they give us sample answers in barbri.  There s some stuff you commit to memory because they test it over and over again.  And the rest of the stuff you glance over enough so that when you see the facts, they trigger the rule.  End of story.

I am sticking with my 50 questions a day for the MBE but I am not going to kill myself on that stuff. With 12 essays over 22 topics, I have bigger fish to fry!

I am more worried about the MBE and the Procedure and evidence test than essays. In Texas they are pretty straightforward.  And the ones that aren't chances are no one else knows the answer either, so as long as you don't panic and write something reasonable down, you should be okay.



Ahhh...the LSAT...the good old days!   ;D  A games section might be cool right about now...spice things up a bit.

I'm over here straight up MEMORIZING stuff like a 6th grader.  Whenever they ask me any question about Wills, any question about Trusts, any question about Contracts, Corporations, Family Law, NY Practice....etc. I have a ready-to-go bible verse on standby in my brain that I regurgitate whether it has a damn thing to do with the question or not.  All about getting those points, man.  points points points.  You want to give us a closed book exam you're gonna get a closed book answer.

I figure, my essays are going to be the biggest crap shoot of them all, so in the meanwhile I've still been at those MBE's faithfully, trying to get those stupid details down. 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 07, 2007, 07:46:42 PM
Yeah I gotta call 'em a crapshoot for real.  In New York, they have 28 topics that can appear on any essay portion.  Every issue within each topic is "fair game."  That's 28 x Infinity = the number of things you are responsible for knowing, thus, there is GUARANTEED to be at least a question or two to which you will absolutely not know the answer/rule.  Therefore, all I can do between now and the 24th is memorize the most frequently tested topics, know the basic or most tested issues within each of those topics, and pray.

I've been studying Corporations all day since I got up here, and have memorized verbatim the "rule of law" paragraphs for the 3 most frequently tested areas (duty of care/loyalty, piercing corporate veil) and for the rest of the barbri outline, I just try to ingest it as much as possible, and move on tomorrow to the next topic and repeat.


The MBE is going to have to save me or at least give me some cushion.  I can't afford to rest on the essays in New York. I don't think anybody can to be honest.  New Jersey, on the other hand, won't be so bad.  They have 6 essays on the 6 MBE topics.  No problem.  But New York...uhg :P



Essays?  A crapshoot?

I'm the total opposite. 

I have been studying all day today.  Contracts questions this morning, Wills and estate administration all afternoon. This is my first real break.  Although they tell us not to take breaks, I still need my sanity.  So I get up earlier to make up the difference in time.

Once I actually start committing this stuff to memory next week, it should be pretty reasonable on the essays . . . now, the MBE, that's the real crapshoot. In Texas all of the essays for like the past 10 years are online, and they give us sample answers in barbri.  There s some stuff you commit to memory because they test it over and over again.  And the rest of the stuff you glance over enough so that when you see the facts, they trigger the rule.  End of story.

I am sticking with my 50 questions a day for the MBE but I am not going to kill myself on that stuff. With 12 essays over 22 topics, I have bigger fish to fry!

I am more worried about the MBE and the Procedure and evidence test than essays. In Texas they are pretty straightforward.  And the ones that aren't chances are no one else knows the answer either, so as long as you don't panic and write something reasonable down, you should be okay.



Ahhh...the LSAT...the good old days!   ;D  A games section might be cool right about now...spice things up a bit.

I'm over here straight up MEMORIZING stuff like a 6th grader.  Whenever they ask me any question about Wills, any question about Trusts, any question about Contracts, Corporations, Family Law, NY Practice....etc. I have a ready-to-go bible verse on standby in my brain that I regurgitate whether it has a damn thing to do with the question or not.  All about getting those points, man.  points points points.  You want to give us a closed book exam you're gonna get a closed book answer.

I figure, my essays are going to be the biggest crap shoot of them all, so in the meanwhile I've still been at those MBE's faithfully, trying to get those stupid details down. 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on July 07, 2007, 07:56:03 PM
If there are no patterns, like in Texas--like we always have 2 wills/estate administration, 2 family law, 2 property (one oil and gas), two business enterprise, 2 UCC and 1 consumer rights and 1 trust/guardianship, then I can imagine that the essays might be a crapshoot. The other topics are crossovers (income tax and bankruptcy) that can appear in any subject.

Its back to the grind for me... a wonderful evening of civil procedure and evidence. Oh joy.   :-\
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on July 07, 2007, 09:40:59 PM
Illinois just changed how they're doing things. We'll probably have one IL civ pro and one IL equity. Aside from that, they've adopted the MEE essays, so all bets are off. Could be any of a wide variety of topics, from the MEE to the "families" of subjects tested previously which include UCC 2, 3, and/or 9, family law, wills, trusts, corporations, and a whole bunch of other legal goodness.

I worked primarily on MBE stuff today. Tomorrow I'm going to bash my head on essays.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 07, 2007, 10:44:09 PM
New York only has 5 essays. Which, at first, sounds great...until you look a little closer. 

Its actually 5 essays, the MPT, and 50 New York multiple choice all on the local day. 

The other stuff aside, to go back to what SMU was talking about, of the 5 essays, 3 do have somewhat of a pattern, the other 2 are basically the luck of the draw.  The 3 essays that always repeat are (i) Corporations & Contracts, (ii) Crim Law & Crim Pro, and (iii) Wills and Trusts.

The other 2 vary with no pattern.  For the past 10 years, family law has managed to make it in there the most, so I'll be hitting that up in a few days, followed by torts, property, real estate, professional responsibility, conflicts of laws, agency, evidence, commercial paper, secured transactions, blah blah blah.  In other words, we could see anything.  And if Texas and Illinois are like New York, then I'm sure you guys have your state's civil practice basically thrown up in every question.  I was looking at one of these sample answers for Torts and at first I was like, ok kool, torts, I got this.  Wrong. It was NY Practice, with a guest appearance by Torts.  All kinds of motions and dismissals and statutes of limitation and junk. 

At least I feel better talkin it out with you guys.  The more people I talk to who passed (or failed for that matter) the more I start to feel that this thing is doable.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on July 08, 2007, 08:26:54 AM
At least I feel better talkin it out with you guys.  The more people I talk to who passed (or failed for that matter) the more I start to feel that this thing is doable.

I totally agree. Thanks for that.

I get a lot of "you'll do fine" from people who've never been through the process. That's nice of them, I appreciate the support as it's given, but it's still different to be able to talk with those who have actual experience in prep or with the test.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on July 08, 2007, 03:45:20 PM
Yes, it is different being able to talk on the board. Even different from talking to classmates, because some of them are still playing the law school mind games, which is hillarious.

What scares me the most is the number of people that fail by like 5 points or less. I feel like I will do fairly well on the essays, but the Procedure and evidence and MBE really scare me.  The MPT is probably a crapshoot for everyone, so I don't feel too bad about that. I will write 4 more of them (I've already written three) before the exam just to make sure I am still hitting issues and staying in the appropriate timeframe, but it is not my biggest concern.

Oh, and family law and wills are heavily procedural,in addition to the separate procedure and evidence portion. Oh joy.

Yes, everyone keeps saying, you'll pass, or you'll do great . . . I'm like I don't really care if I do great.  I just want my 675 or higher so I can practice law.  The bills are not going to pay themselves . . . and I am ready to start living in a house again!! With a yard and a swing in the front. Lol.

Anyhow, back to corporations.  Good luck everyone!

New York only has 5 essays. Which, at first, sounds great...until you look a little closer. 

Its actually 5 essays, the MPT, and 50 New York multiple choice all on the local day. 

The other stuff aside, to go back to what SMU was talking about, of the 5 essays, 3 do have somewhat of a pattern, the other 2 are basically the luck of the draw.  The 3 essays that always repeat are (i) Corporations & Contracts, (ii) Crim Law & Crim Pro, and (iii) Wills and Trusts.

The other 2 vary with no pattern.  For the past 10 years, family law has managed to make it in there the most, so I'll be hitting that up in a few days, followed by torts, property, real estate, professional responsibility, conflicts of laws, agency, evidence, commercial paper, secured transactions, blah blah blah.  In other words, we could see anything.  And if Texas and Illinois are like New York, then I'm sure you guys have your state's civil practice basically thrown up in every question.  I was looking at one of these sample answers for Torts and at first I was like, ok kool, torts, I got this.  Wrong. It was NY Practice, with a guest appearance by Torts.  All kinds of motions and dismissals and statutes of limitation and junk. 

At least I feel better talkin it out with you guys.  The more people I talk to who passed (or failed for that matter) the more I start to feel that this thing is doable.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 08, 2007, 07:55:17 PM
LOL @ I just want my 675.  Hell, I just want my 665!  I've never wanted a C so bad in my life before.

I agree with you two, people/friends/family all say, ah, you'll be fine, you got this.  And I feel like Slacker feels: I appreciate it, but at the same time, they have no idea what they're talking about.  This guy downstairs at the local food mart has been talking to me and my study partner about it, and one day when he saw how much we were doing and how serious we are taking it he said "you guys are doing too much - you know this is only a pass/fail exam right?"  To which I could only reply, "you do know that over 4,000 people fail the NY bar exam every year right?" 

I hate to talk about it, but I can't accept that those other 4,000 people went into this thing knowing that they would fail.  I'm sure they heard the same things from friends and fam that we are hearing now.  And, unfortunately, for every dumb-ass I know who passed, I know a very intelligent and respectable student who failed.  And you're right, they always end up failing by like 9 points or something crazy like that.  My study partner's boyfriend graduated ahead of us, and he's a smart guy, and he failed by 2 points.  2 friggin points!  That's like, a single MBE question, or one more check mark on an essay.  Crazy. 

But enough about failing. Let's keep it positive and focus on passing THIS time.  When I think of things that are motivational for me is really listening to what people did before, whether they passed or failed, and comparing it with what I am doing now, which usually makes me feel at least somewhat more confident because when they tell me what they didn't do, I know that I'm not making that same mistake.  Also, when I talk to my classmates who are honest about where they are at, we're all in the same boat.  Plus, I tell my study partner that I talk to you guys and you guys are in the same boat as us so we don't feel half bad.

And you're right on with the mind games, SMU.  The ultimate mind games have been coming out lately.  It's like they saved the best for last.  Just when you thought 1L was over...  Folks showing up to barbri with weekend tans that they got while they were out on the beach relaxing in the sun...folks walkin into barbri mad hours late or leaving mad hours early on the regular...folks talking about they would pass tomorrow if they had to take the exam. I had this one girl tell me to straight up in all sincerity "I'm gonna pass the bar, guy.  Like, d'uh" with a tone of matter-of-factness in her voice, as if she was talking about something that's a given - as if she was insulted that I had even asked her about it.

Shiiiiiiiiiiit...If law school has taught me one thing, it's that nothing is a given.  You can walk out of an exam knowing that you nailed it, only to end up with a C.  That's why I don't put too much faith in the essays.  Too much subjectivity involved.  I  study what I can for it, and continue to hit my MBE's.


Keep it going.


I'm going to go jump into NY practice until it makes sense....well....ok....maybe not that long.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on July 08, 2007, 08:50:53 PM
I ran into one of my professors the other day and she told me "remember, all you need is a D." My response was, "well, I think it's more like a C." It was still nice to talk with her.

I don't have people doing the mind games. Or if they're trying, I'm missing it completely. People I've been talking to locally have been very cool, no one I know is trying to psyche each other out or anything like that.

Sands...I'm with you. It's not the people who've passed that freak me out. It's the smart people I know who haven't passed. That's the freaky bit.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: cui bono? on July 09, 2007, 11:25:37 AM
They may not know what they're talking about when it comes to the bar but they DO know YOU.  Perhaps ur right, the ppl that failed didnt take it thinking that they would fail.  But you don't know what they were doing to prepare.  And you don't really know what their attitude was like going into the exam. And you failed to mention all the times you walked out of a LS exam, thinking that you had failed and ending up nailing it.   ;) :)  You know I'm right.   ;D  Seriously, I just don't think that NOW is the time for self doubt.  I haven't taken the BAR obviously and I've only gone thru one year of LS but what I do know (and know very well) is that self doubt is what takes you out of the game.  Think about all the studying u are doing now/have been doing.  Do you really want to take yourself out of the game in the ninth inning?! :-X Stop robbing yourself of what you worked hard for. Forgot who said this but:  "whether you think you can or whether you think you cant, either way you are right".  Stop writing negative things on here-  only write positive things and call that into being. 

And dont be so hard on those that have faith in you   :)  Those folks may not have taken the bar but, I know you are a spiritual person & spiritually speaking there's a reason why those ppl said what they said to you.     :)  I'm looking forward to October/November when I can say "I told u so" to you, SMU, the procrastinator, and slacker  :)


LOL @ I just want my 675.  Hell, I just want my 665!  I've never wanted a C so bad in my life before.

I agree with you two, people/friends/family all say, ah, you'll be fine, you got this.  And I feel like Slacker feels: I appreciate it, but at the same time, they have no idea what they're talking about.  This guy downstairs at the local food mart has been talking to me and my study partner about it, and one day when he saw how much we were doing and how serious we are taking it he said "you guys are doing too much - you know this is only a pass/fail exam right?"  To which I could only reply, "you do know that over 4,000 people fail the NY bar exam every year right?" 
I hate to talk about it, but I can't accept that those other 4,000 people went into this thing knowing that they would fail.  I'm sure they heard the same things from friends and fam that we are hearing now.  And, unfortunately, for every dumb-ass I know who passed, I know a very intelligent and respectable student who failed.  And you're right, they always end up failing by like 9 points or something crazy like that.  My study partner's boyfriend graduated ahead of us, and he's a smart guy, and he failed by 2 points.  2 friggin points!  That's like, a single MBE question, or one more check mark on an essay.  Crazy.  But enough about failing. Let's keep it positive and focus on passing THIS time.  When I think of things that are motivational for me is really listening to what people did before, whether they passed or failed, and comparing it with what I am doing now, which usually makes me feel at least somewhat more confident because when they tell me what they didn't do, I know that I'm not making that same mistake.  Also, when I talk to my classmates who are honest about where they are at, we're all in the same boat.  Plus, I tell my study partner that I talk to you guys and you guys are in the same boat as us so we don't feel half bad.And you're right on with the mind games, SMU.  The ultimate mind games have been coming out lately.  It's like they saved the best for last.  Just when you thought 1L was over...  Folks showing up to barbri with weekend tans that they got while they were out on the beach relaxing in the sun...folks walkin into barbri mad hours late or leaving mad hours early on the regular...folks talking about they would pass tomorrow if they had to take the exam. I had this one girl tell me to straight up in all sincerity "I'm gonna pass the bar, guy.  Like, d'uh" with a tone of matter-of-factness in her voice, as if she was talking about something that's a given - as if she was insulted that I had even asked her about it.  Shiiiiiiiiiiit...If law school has taught me one thing, it's that nothing is a given.  You can walk out of an exam knowing that you nailed it, only to end up with a C.  That's why I don't put too much faith in the essays.  Too much subjectivity involved.  I  study what I can for it, and continue to hit my MBE's.  Keep it going.  I'm going to go jump into NY practice until it makes sense....well....ok....maybe not that long.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Eugene Young on July 09, 2007, 01:51:20 PM
here here

"...you speak things into fruition..."
                      -kanye west

They may not know what they're talking about when it comes to the bar but they DO know YOU.  Perhaps ur right, the ppl that failed didnt take it thinking that they would fail.  But you don't know what they were doing to prepare.  And you don't really know what their attitude was like going into the exam. And you failed to mention all the times you walked out of a LS exam, thinking that you had failed and ending up nailing it.   ;) :)  You know I'm right.   ;D  Seriously, I just don't think that NOW is the time for self doubt.  I haven't taken the BAR obviously and I've only gone thru one year of LS but what I do know (and know very well) is that self doubt is what takes you out of the game.  Think about all the studying u are doing now/have been doing.  Do you really want to take yourself out of the game in the ninth inning?! :-X Stop robbing yourself of what you worked hard for. Forgot who said this but:  "whether you think you can or whether you think you cant, either way you are right".  Stop writing negative things on here-  only write positive things and call that into being. 

And dont be so hard on those that have faith in you   :)  Those folks may not have taken the bar but, I know you are a spiritual person & spiritually speaking there's a reason why those ppl said what they said to you.     :)  I'm looking forward to October/November when I can say "I told u so" to you, SMU, the procrastinator, and slacker  :)


LOL @ I just want my 675.  Hell, I just want my 665!  I've never wanted a C so bad in my life before.

I agree with you two, people/friends/family all say, ah, you'll be fine, you got this.  And I feel like Slacker feels: I appreciate it, but at the same time, they have no idea what they're talking about.  This guy downstairs at the local food mart has been talking to me and my study partner about it, and one day when he saw how much we were doing and how serious we are taking it he said "you guys are doing too much - you know this is only a pass/fail exam right?"  To which I could only reply, "you do know that over 4,000 people fail the NY bar exam every year right?" 
I hate to talk about it, but I can't accept that those other 4,000 people went into this thing knowing that they would fail.  I'm sure they heard the same things from friends and fam that we are hearing now.  And, unfortunately, for every dumb-ass I know who passed, I know a very intelligent and respectable student who failed.  And you're right, they always end up failing by like 9 points or something crazy like that.  My study partner's boyfriend graduated ahead of us, and he's a smart guy, and he failed by 2 points.  2 friggin points!  That's like, a single MBE question, or one more check mark on an essay.  Crazy.  But enough about failing. Let's keep it positive and focus on passing THIS time.  When I think of things that are motivational for me is really listening to what people did before, whether they passed or failed, and comparing it with what I am doing now, which usually makes me feel at least somewhat more confident because when they tell me what they didn't do, I know that I'm not making that same mistake.  Also, when I talk to my classmates who are honest about where they are at, we're all in the same boat.  Plus, I tell my study partner that I talk to you guys and you guys are in the same boat as us so we don't feel half bad.And you're right on with the mind games, SMU.  The ultimate mind games have been coming out lately.  It's like they saved the best for last.  Just when you thought 1L was over...  Folks showing up to barbri with weekend tans that they got while they were out on the beach relaxing in the sun...folks walkin into barbri mad hours late or leaving mad hours early on the regular...folks talking about they would pass tomorrow if they had to take the exam. I had this one girl tell me to straight up in all sincerity "I'm gonna pass the bar, guy.  Like, d'uh" with a tone of matter-of-factness in her voice, as if she was talking about something that's a given - as if she was insulted that I had even asked her about it.  Shiiiiiiiiiiit...If law school has taught me one thing, it's that nothing is a given.  You can walk out of an exam knowing that you nailed it, only to end up with a C.  That's why I don't put too much faith in the essays.  Too much subjectivity involved.  I  study what I can for it, and continue to hit my MBE's.  Keep it going.  I'm going to go jump into NY practice until it makes sense....well....ok....maybe not that long.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 09, 2007, 03:35:39 PM
Good look, folks.

No need to say you told us so, because we're telling you now, me, SMU, Slacker & procrastinator (love those names) are going to pass this monkey on the first time around in 2 weeks.

This whole thread is merely a documentation of our mental anguish and general annoyance with the whole bar exam process so don't take us the wrong way.  There are days where I feel overwhelmed and the material is just not sinking in, and then there are days where I can get an almost perfect score of 33/33 on an MBE topic.  There are ups and downs.  It's like 1L x 10.  You guys remember what that's like so you can relate.  You go home at night and think about it, dream about it, wake up and talk about it...non-stop. 24/7

So don't misinterpret our "this *&^% sucks" commentary for "we are not going to make it" because we are going to make it...it's just going to suck until we get there.  You will all come to find this out for yourselves very soon over the next few years. :P ;)  Speaking of things that suck:



All Around the Clock Mart is sued by Richie for damages (including medical expenses) for injuries allegedly sustained to the face and forearms, which resulted from his collision with the store's automatic doors.  Richie contended that at the time of the mishap, the doors were programmed to swing outward, taking would-be customers, entering the store, by surprise.  At the trial, Richie testified to both the nature of his injuries and the events leading up to their occurrence.  All Around the Clock Mart denied that the doors to its Arnoldsville Store were in any way un-safe, or that Richie's injuries were caused by his encounter with the doors.

103. Richie's twenty-one year old sister, Joanie, testified at trial, that she accompanied her brother to the store the day of the accident and witnessed the outward swinging doors, which flattened him.  She further alleged that when she returned the following week to the All Around the Clock Mart, the doors had been re-programmed to swing inward.  The trial judge should rule Joanie's testimony:

(A) admissible, as a common sense impression for which a lay opinion is entirely proper
(B) admissible, as a tacit admission of a party opponent
(C) inadmissible, on the grounds of irrelevancy
(D) inadmissible, on the grounds of public policy considerations

104. Ralph is called by All Around the Clock Mart to testify that Richie's reputation for honesty is poor and that he is known far and wide as the biggest story-teller in Arnoldsville. This testimony is:

(A) admissible, but only to show the likely exaggeration of Richie's alleged injuries
(B) admissible, but only to discredit Richie's testimony that the accident happened in the manner which Richie claims it did
(C) inadmissible character evidence
(D) inadmissible, since Richie's testimony has not yet been rebutted by All Around the Clock Mart, and his credibility is therefore not yet susceptible to attack

105. All Around the Clock Mart offers into evidence certified copies of court proceedings revealing that Richie has filed three similar lawsuits in the last eighteen months against other retail establishments, claiming various injuries to his back, neck and legs from slip and fall accidents, while on the premises of those stores.  These copies should be ruled:
(A) inadmissible, because of the Best Evidence Rule
(B) inadmissible, because they are irrelevant to the present claim of head and forearm injuries
(C) inadmissible, since there is the danger of undue prejudice to Richie, which outweighs the probative value of the evidence
(D) admissible, because they establish a pattern of similar actions

106. Potsie is requested by the plaintiff to testify that he walked into the same All Around the Clock Mart, only minutes before Richie's mishap, and had to jump out of the way at the last second, to narrowly avoid being hit in the face by the automatic doors.  This testimony is:
(A) inadmissible, because it is irrelevant
(B) inadmissible, unless it can be shown that Potsie was exercising reasonable care in entering the store
(C) admissible, since it tends to prove that a dangerous condition was present at the time Richie was hit by the doors
(D) admissible, because of its probative value in establishing that Richie's injury was caused by the improperly programmed doors

107. Fonzie is scheduled to testify.  To prove that he was a juvenile on a given date, evidence is offered that on that date he was confined in a juvenile detention facility.  If a party wished to argue that this evidence is hearsay, whom would he point to as the hearsay declarant?
(A) The witness on the stand
(B) The party offering the evidence
(C) The juvenile authorities
(D) Fonzie




Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on July 09, 2007, 03:49:28 PM
One of my graduation gifts was a cardholder for my desk that has my name and Attorney at Law beneath.  It stays on my desk as motivation.  I will, soon enough, be able to put my business cards in there.

I also see it as my former co workers claiming the victory for me already! :)  :)


here here

"...you speak things into fruition..."
                      -kanye west

They may not know what they're talking about when it comes to the bar but they DO know YOU.  Perhaps ur right, the ppl that failed didnt take it thinking that they would fail.  But you don't know what they were doing to prepare.  And you don't really know what their attitude was like going into the exam. And you failed to mention all the times you walked out of a LS exam, thinking that you had failed and ending up nailing it.   ;) :)  You know I'm right.   ;D  Seriously, I just don't think that NOW is the time for self doubt.  I haven't taken the BAR obviously and I've only gone thru one year of LS but what I do know (and know very well) is that self doubt is what takes you out of the game.  Think about all the studying u are doing now/have been doing.  Do you really want to take yourself out of the game in the ninth inning?! :-X Stop robbing yourself of what you worked hard for. Forgot who said this but:  "whether you think you can or whether you think you cant, either way you are right".  Stop writing negative things on here-  only write positive things and call that into being. 

And dont be so hard on those that have faith in you   :)  Those folks may not have taken the bar but, I know you are a spiritual person & spiritually speaking there's a reason why those ppl said what they said to you.     :)  I'm looking forward to October/November when I can say "I told u so" to you, SMU, the procrastinator, and slacker  :)


LOL @ I just want my 675.  Hell, I just want my 665!  I've never wanted a C so bad in my life before.

I agree with you two, people/friends/family all say, ah, you'll be fine, you got this.  And I feel like Slacker feels: I appreciate it, but at the same time, they have no idea what they're talking about.  This guy downstairs at the local food mart has been talking to me and my study partner about it, and one day when he saw how much we were doing and how serious we are taking it he said "you guys are doing too much - you know this is only a pass/fail exam right?"  To which I could only reply, "you do know that over 4,000 people fail the NY bar exam every year right?" 
I hate to talk about it, but I can't accept that those other 4,000 people went into this thing knowing that they would fail.  I'm sure they heard the same things from friends and fam that we are hearing now.  And, unfortunately, for every dumb-ass I know who passed, I know a very intelligent and respectable student who failed.  And you're right, they always end up failing by like 9 points or something crazy like that.  My study partner's boyfriend graduated ahead of us, and he's a smart guy, and he failed by 2 points.  2 friggin points!  That's like, a single MBE question, or one more check mark on an essay.  Crazy.  But enough about failing. Let's keep it positive and focus on passing THIS time.  When I think of things that are motivational for me is really listening to what people did before, whether they passed or failed, and comparing it with what I am doing now, which usually makes me feel at least somewhat more confident because when they tell me what they didn't do, I know that I'm not making that same mistake.  Also, when I talk to my classmates who are honest about where they are at, we're all in the same boat.  Plus, I tell my study partner that I talk to you guys and you guys are in the same boat as us so we don't feel half bad.And you're right on with the mind games, SMU.  The ultimate mind games have been coming out lately.  It's like they saved the best for last.  Just when you thought 1L was over...  Folks showing up to barbri with weekend tans that they got while they were out on the beach relaxing in the sun...folks walkin into barbri mad hours late or leaving mad hours early on the regular...folks talking about they would pass tomorrow if they had to take the exam. I had this one girl tell me to straight up in all sincerity "I'm gonna pass the bar, guy.  Like, d'uh" with a tone of matter-of-factness in her voice, as if she was talking about something that's a given - as if she was insulted that I had even asked her about it.  Shiiiiiiiiiiit...If law school has taught me one thing, it's that nothing is a given.  You can walk out of an exam knowing that you nailed it, only to end up with a C.  That's why I don't put too much faith in the essays.  Too much subjectivity involved.  I  study what I can for it, and continue to hit my MBE's.  Keep it going.  I'm going to go jump into NY practice until it makes sense....well....ok....maybe not that long.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 09, 2007, 03:56:09 PM
One of my graduation gifts was a cardholder for my desk that has my name and Attorney at Law beneath.  It stays on my desk as motivation.  I will, soon enough, be able to put my business cards in there.

I also see it as my former co workers claiming the victory for me already! :)  :)




That's wsup.


Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 09, 2007, 04:01:27 PM
Speaking of things that suck:



All Around the Clock Mart is sued by Richie for damages (including medical expenses) for injuries allegedly sustained to the face and forearms, which resulted from his collision with the store's automatic doors.  Richie contended that at the time of the mishap, the doors were programmed to swing outward, taking would-be customers, entering the store, by surprise.  At the trial, Richie testified to both the nature of his injuries and the events leading up to their occurrence.  All Around the Clock Mart denied that the doors to its Arnoldsville Store were in any way un-safe, or that Richie's injuries were caused by his encounter with the doors.

103. Richie's twenty-one year old sister, Joanie, testified at trial, that she accompanied her brother to the store the day of the accident and witnessed the outward swinging doors, which flattened him.  She further alleged that when she returned the following week to the All Around the Clock Mart, the doors had been re-programmed to swing inward.  The trial judge should rule Joanie's testimony:

(A) admissible, as a common sense impression for which a lay opinion is entirely proper
(B) admissible, as a tacit admission of a party opponent
(C) inadmissible, on the grounds of irrelevancy
(D) inadmissible, on the grounds of public policy considerations

104. Ralph is called by All Around the Clock Mart to testify that Richie's reputation for honesty is poor and that he is known far and wide as the biggest story-teller in Arnoldsville. This testimony is:

(A) admissible, but only to show the likely exaggeration of Richie's alleged injuries
(B) admissible, but only to discredit Richie's testimony that the accident happened in the manner which Richie claims it did
(C) inadmissible character evidence
(D) inadmissible, since Richie's testimony has not yet been rebutted by All Around the Clock Mart, and his credibility is therefore not yet susceptible to attack

105. All Around the Clock Mart offers into evidence certified copies of court proceedings revealing that Richie has filed three similar lawsuits in the last eighteen months against other retail establishments, claiming various injuries to his back, neck and legs from slip and fall accidents, while on the premises of those stores.  These copies should be ruled:
(A) inadmissible, because of the Best Evidence Rule
(B) inadmissible, because they are irrelevant to the present claim of head and forearm injuries
(C) inadmissible, since there is the danger of undue prejudice to Richie, which outweighs the probative value of the evidence
(D) admissible, because they establish a pattern of similar actions

106. Potsie is requested by the plaintiff to testify that he walked into the same All Around the Clock Mart, only minutes before Richie's mishap, and had to jump out of the way at the last second, to narrowly avoid being hit in the face by the automatic doors.  This testimony is:
(A) inadmissible, because it is irrelevant
(B) inadmissible, unless it can be shown that Potsie was exercising reasonable care in entering the store
(C) admissible, since it tends to prove that a dangerous condition was present at the time Richie was hit by the doors
(D) admissible, because of its probative value in establishing that Richie's injury was caused by the improperly programmed doors

107. Fonzie is scheduled to testify.  To prove that he was a juvenile on a given date, evidence is offered that on that date he was confined in a juvenile detention facility.  If a party wished to argue that this evidence is hearsay, whom would he point to as the hearsay declarant?
(A) The witness on the stand
(B) The party offering the evidence
(C) The juvenile authorities
(D) Fonzie






A
B (alternatively, C)
D
D
C
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 09, 2007, 04:13:13 PM
Speaking of things that suck:



All Around the Clock Mart is sued by Richie for damages (including medical expenses) for injuries allegedly sustained to the face and forearms, which resulted from his collision with the store's automatic doors.  Richie contended that at the time of the mishap, the doors were programmed to swing outward, taking would-be customers, entering the store, by surprise.  At the trial, Richie testified to both the nature of his injuries and the events leading up to their occurrence.  All Around the Clock Mart denied that the doors to its Arnoldsville Store were in any way un-safe, or that Richie's injuries were caused by his encounter with the doors.

103. Richie's twenty-one year old sister, Joanie, testified at trial, that she accompanied her brother to the store the day of the accident and witnessed the outward swinging doors, which flattened him.  She further alleged that when she returned the following week to the All Around the Clock Mart, the doors had been re-programmed to swing inward.  The trial judge should rule Joanie's testimony:

(A) admissible, as a common sense impression for which a lay opinion is entirely proper
(B) admissible, as a tacit admission of a party opponent
(C) inadmissible, on the grounds of irrelevancy
(D) inadmissible, on the grounds of public policy considerations

104. Ralph is called by All Around the Clock Mart to testify that Richie's reputation for honesty is poor and that he is known far and wide as the biggest story-teller in Arnoldsville. This testimony is:

(A) admissible, but only to show the likely exaggeration of Richie's alleged injuries
(B) admissible, but only to discredit Richie's testimony that the accident happened in the manner which Richie claims it did
(C) inadmissible character evidence
(D) inadmissible, since Richie's testimony has not yet been rebutted by All Around the Clock Mart, and his credibility is therefore not yet susceptible to attack

105. All Around the Clock Mart offers into evidence certified copies of court proceedings revealing that Richie has filed three similar lawsuits in the last eighteen months against other retail establishments, claiming various injuries to his back, neck and legs from slip and fall accidents, while on the premises of those stores.  These copies should be ruled:
(A) inadmissible, because of the Best Evidence Rule
(B) inadmissible, because they are irrelevant to the present claim of head and forearm injuries
(C) inadmissible, since there is the danger of undue prejudice to Richie, which outweighs the probative value of the evidence
(D) admissible, because they establish a pattern of similar actions

106. Potsie is requested by the plaintiff to testify that he walked into the same All Around the Clock Mart, only minutes before Richie's mishap, and had to jump out of the way at the last second, to narrowly avoid being hit in the face by the automatic doors.  This testimony is:
(A) inadmissible, because it is irrelevant
(B) inadmissible, unless it can be shown that Potsie was exercising reasonable care in entering the store
(C) admissible, since it tends to prove that a dangerous condition was present at the time Richie was hit by the doors
(D) admissible, because of its probative value in establishing that Richie's injury was caused by the improperly programmed doors

107. Fonzie is scheduled to testify.  To prove that he was a juvenile on a given date, evidence is offered that on that date he was confined in a juvenile detention facility.  If a party wished to argue that this evidence is hearsay, whom would he point to as the hearsay declarant?
(A) The witness on the stand
(B) The party offering the evidence
(C) The juvenile authorities
(D) Fonzie






A
B (alternatively, C)
D
D
C

You got 2 out of the 5 but I won't say which 2 yet.

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 09, 2007, 05:22:54 PM
Man!  Lol then I bet it's A, C, D, B, D or A, C, C, B, C
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on July 09, 2007, 06:00:41 PM
Man!  Lol then I bet it's A, C, D, B, D or A, C, C, B, C
0/5 and 2/5
(this is sort of like MasterMind)

Thanks, all, for the good wishes.

As Sands said, it's a very frustrating process, but it's not impossible. If I thought there wasn't a chance, I could be enjoying the summer a whole lot more by just giving up now. ;) Nope...ain't gonna do that.

Thanks, also, to everyone for making me feel welcome here.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 09, 2007, 06:40:22 PM
Man!  Lol then I bet it's A, C, D, B, D or A, C, C, B, C
0/5 and 2/5
(this is sort of like MasterMind)




LOL, actually at first he had:

A
B
D
D
C

which has 2 correct, then he changed to:

A
C
D
B
D

which has 0 correct, then alternatively he changed to:

A
C
C
B
C

Which actually has 2 correct.


So he's still in the running.


Cui Bono where you at Ms. Evidence?  This is your thang.




Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on July 09, 2007, 06:48:56 PM
We're all in this together, slacker.

Just finished working the July 2005 MPT. Spent too much time outlining my answer so I went 4 minutes over time.

I got the law  and application right, just not enough time to write the last part and conclude.

I figure the next two that I do will consist of trying to finish within 90 minutes.

As for the rest of the day, I did torts questions this morning (still holding strong at 60%), and did flashcards for the UCC subjects this afternoon (sales, secured transactions and commercial paper). I just did 1 MPT, will probably read and outline another MPT, and call it an evening.

Back up again at 6:30 am to get it all done!

As to why I am getting up so early . . . I can't work straight through a day with no meaningful breaks.  So I get up earlier so I can have 2 1 hr breaks ( I worked through lunch. Played video games with the hubby for 1 hour, and made and ate breakfast during the other.)  So my study days have been about 11-12 hours since Saturday.

Yesterday was a beast because I went to church, so I missed the morning.  But somebody needs to keep praying for us! :)

I'm not doing this to give ya'll a play by play of my life . . . lol . . . just to show one alternative as to how to study and still try to have some balance. It is possible to take some breaks and do things and still get everything done according to schedule. We can't all go full blast like Sands for 12 hours straight . . .lol.


Man!  Lol then I bet it's A, C, D, B, D or A, C, C, B, C
0/5 and 2/5
(this is sort of like MasterMind)

Thanks, all, for the good wishes.

As Sands said, it's a very frustrating process, but it's not impossible. If I thought there wasn't a chance, I could be enjoying the summer a whole lot more by just giving up now. ;) Nope...ain't gonna do that.

Thanks, also, to everyone for making me feel welcome here.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on July 09, 2007, 06:57:54 PM
Sands. As for those questions, I did those early in June.  Lets see how well I remembered what I learned:

103. D
104. B
105. C
106. D
107. C

If you are in the Red book . . . I got 4 out of 5.  :)  Practice makes (almost) perfect????

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 09, 2007, 07:28:59 PM
We're all in this together, slacker.

Just finished working the July 2005 MPT. Spent too much time outlining my answer so I went 4 minutes over time.

I got the law  and application right, just not enough time to write the last part and conclude.

I figure the next two that I do will consist of trying to finish within 90 minutes.

As for the rest of the day, I did torts questions this morning (still holding strong at 60%), and did flashcards for the UCC subjects this afternoon (sales, secured transactions and commercial paper). I just did 1 MPT, will probably read and outline another MPT, and call it an evening.

Back up again at 6:30 am to get it all done!

As to why I am getting up so early . . . I can't work straight through a day with no meaningful breaks.  So I get up earlier so I can have 2 1 hr breaks ( I worked through lunch. Played video games with the hubby for 1 hour, and made and ate breakfast during the other.)  So my study days have been about 11-12 hours since Saturday.

Yesterday was a beast because I went to church, so I missed the morning.  But somebody needs to keep praying for us! :)

I'm not doing this to give ya'll a play by play of my life . . . lol . . . just to show one alternative as to how to study and still try to have some balance. It is possible to take some breaks and do things and still get everything done according to schedule. We can't all go full blast like Sands for 12 hours straight . . .lol.


Girl please, I am the Taking A Break For No Reason KING up in this piece.  Sometimes it's so bad I gotta take a break from taking a break.

I don't EVEN have the stamina to get up at nobody's 6:30am.  My usual day during the week when I am going to BarBri is to get up around 8-ish, watch "Morning Joe" on CNN to see what the hell the government done messed up this week...then usually always make it to BarBri 15 minutes late...take a seat in the back...try to take notes...fall asleep....wake back up and take more notes....fall back asleep...then get done around 1pm....go grab some food with the study partner and whoever else wants to roll...finish that up and take it back to the study room....do 33 PMBR questions on, say, Crim, then take a break, then do 33 on Evidence, then take a break, then do 33 on Con Law, then take a break, then crack out New York practice, study for about an hour, take a break, then come back mabye get on a roll and study for about 2 hours, and then another break...

repeat.



Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on July 09, 2007, 07:41:46 PM
My consolation prize is the ability to take the evening off!! :)

And my idea of getting up at 6:30 is  rolling over, brushing teeth, washing face, and getting back into bed at 6:45 with my PMBR volume 2 and working 50 practice questions and reviewing the answers before breakfast. :)

We're all in this together, slacker.

Just finished working the July 2005 MPT. Spent too much time outlining my answer so I went 4 minutes over time.

I got the law  and application right, just not enough time to write the last part and conclude.

I figure the next two that I do will consist of trying to finish within 90 minutes.

As for the rest of the day, I did torts questions this morning (still holding strong at 60%), and did flashcards for the UCC subjects this afternoon (sales, secured transactions and commercial paper). I just did 1 MPT, will probably read and outline another MPT, and call it an evening.

Back up again at 6:30 am to get it all done!

As to why I am getting up so early . . . I can't work straight through a day with no meaningful breaks.  So I get up earlier so I can have 2 1 hr breaks ( I worked through lunch. Played video games with the hubby for 1 hour, and made and ate breakfast during the other.)  So my study days have been about 11-12 hours since Saturday.

Yesterday was a beast because I went to church, so I missed the morning.  But somebody needs to keep praying for us! :)

I'm not doing this to give ya'll a play by play of my life . . . lol . . . just to show one alternative as to how to study and still try to have some balance. It is possible to take some breaks and do things and still get everything done according to schedule. We can't all go full blast like Sands for 12 hours straight . . .lol.


Girl please, I am the Taking A Break For No Reason KING up in this piece.  Sometimes it's so bad I gotta take a break from taking a break.

I don't EVEN have the stamina to get up at nobody's 6:30am.  My usual day during the week when I am going to BarBri is to get up around 8-ish, watch "Morning Joe" on CNN to see what the hell the government done messed up this week...then usually always make it to BarBri 15 minutes late...take a seat in the back...try to take notes...fall asleep....wake back up and take more notes....fall back asleep...then get done around 1pm....go grab some food with the study partner and whoever else wants to roll...finish that up and take it back to the study room....do 33 PMBR questions on, say, Crim, then take a break, then do 33 on Evidence, then take a break, then do 33 on Con Law, then take a break, then crack out New York practice, study for about an hour, take a break, then come back mabye get on a roll and study for about 2 hours, and then another break...

repeat.




Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 09, 2007, 08:16:14 PM
Lol let's try:

D (OK, I think they're trying to get at the bar on subsequent remedial actions, but that's a stupid way of doing so)
B
C
A
C
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 09, 2007, 08:52:17 PM
Lol let's try:

D (OK, I think they're trying to get at the bar on subsequent remedial actions, but that's a stupid way of doing so)
B
C
A
C

Much better. 4/5 correct.

Alci, you just touched on something that we've been noticing on a good number of these "standardized" questions, which is that the way they are communicated is a bit...off....for lack of a better word.  This one is a prime example.  You clearly know the rule: subsequent remedial measures are not allowed to show negligence; they are only allowed to show control or ownership.  Ok kool.  Now, which of those answer choices A-D says that?? (D) by default just because it can't be (A)(B) or (C) but, knowing the rule, you most certainly would not have jumped straight to (D) on its own because of the way it is communicated.  Not exactly how you or I would have said it.  They are not the majority, and usually they put the necessary material or universal language that a reasonably prudent law student would recognize, but every now and again....on some of these questions....you get something like this where you're like, ok I know the rule and I see what you are trying to say, but that's not how I would have said it, but I'll pick it anyway and hope it's correct.

There's something wrong with 3 or 4 people taking it upon themselves to make up "standardized" tests for each of the 6 substantive topics on the MBE that will literally be taken by thousands of lawyers across the country. 




 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 09, 2007, 09:05:34 PM
Yeah that's messed up and annoying.  "Public policy considerations"  hmph.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on July 09, 2007, 09:53:30 PM
Yeah. Right. Can we at least get some type of delegation from each state to help with the questions?  But then, they would say something like they don't want the questions to get out, they want them to be top secret  . . .oh yeah,  that's because they use the same ones over and over! Really . . . who copyrights bar exam questions?

SMH.  Oh well.  It will be over soon.  But if there is ever a serious movement to reform the bar examination process, I will be all over it.  >:(

Lol let's try:

D (OK, I think they're trying to get at the bar on subsequent remedial actions, but that's a stupid way of doing so)
B
C
A
C

Much better. 4/5 correct.

Alci, you just touched on something that we've been noticing on a good number of these "standardized" questions, which is that the way they are communicated is a bit...off....for lack of a better word.  This one is a prime example.  You clearly know the rule: subsequent remedial measures are not allowed to show negligence; they are only allowed to show control or ownership.  Ok kool.  Now, which of those answer choices A-D says that?? (D) by default just because it can't be (A)(B) or (C) but, knowing the rule, you most certainly would not have jumped straight to (D) on its own because of the way it is communicated.  Not exactly how you are I would have said it.  They are not the majority, and usually they put the necessary material or universal language that a reasonably prudent law student would recognize, but every now and again....on some of these questions....you get something like this where you're like, ok I know the rule and I see what you are trying to say, but that's not how I would have said it, but I'll pick it anyway and hope it's correct.

There's something wrong with 3 or 4 people taking it upon themselves to make up "standardized" tests for each of the 6 substantive topics on the MBE that will literally be taken by thousands of lawyers across the country. 




 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 09, 2007, 09:56:30 PM
No doubt. After we pass the bar and get admitted and they can't touch us anymore, I'm going to launch an investigation against the MBE and expose them and write a book.  Copyright that!  Now!

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: cui bono? on July 10, 2007, 06:24:13 AM
Good look, folks.

No need to say you told us so, because we're telling you now, me, SMU, Slacker & procrastinator (love those names) are going to pass this monkey on the first time around in 2 weeks.

This whole thread is merely a documentation of our mental anguish and general annoyance with the whole bar exam process so don't take us the wrong way.  There are days where I feel overwhelmed and the material is just not sinking in, and then there are days where I can get an almost perfect score of 33/33 on an MBE topic.  There are ups and downs.  It's like 1L x 10.  You guys remember what that's like so you can relate.  You go home at night and think about it, dream about it, wake up and talk about it...non-stop. 24/7

So don't misinterpret our "this sh*t sucks" commentary for "we are not going to make it" because we are going to make it...it's just going to suck until we get there.  You will all come to find this out for yourselves very soon over the next few years. :P ;) 


Well then good.  Keep the motivation going :)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: cui bono? on July 10, 2007, 06:26:40 AM

Cui Bono where you at Ms. Evidence?  This is your thang.



man, that means i gotta go back a coupla pages to see what the heck u are talking about  :P  It's summer, homie.  My brain's on vacay 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 10, 2007, 01:12:37 PM
OK folks, this is one of those WTF questions.  I almost don't even want to post it because I don't even want to taint your brains with its existence.  If fact, I only post it to tell you that this is exactly the type of thing that I will NOT be putting in my memory for the bar.  Absolutely refuse.  If it happens to be one question on the MBE, so be it.




Question 102 Property, Red Book


A deed executed by A in 1992 conveyed Blackacre for a consideration of one dollar, receipt of which was acknowledged, "to B for life, but if liquor is ever sold on Blackacre, then to C and his heirs, and if for any reason the interest hereby conveyed to C is not valid, then I reserve the right to reenter Blackacre and take back my property."  In 1994, B died before the wheat he had planted could be harvested.

102. Who is entitled to the proceeds of the crop?

(A) B's heirs
(B) C
(C) A
(D) divided equally between B's heirs and A



OK, so just going through this thing mechanically, you see the "to B for life" you know that's a life estate to B, and when he croaks, it is going to somebody else. Either back to the grantor or whoever else is after the comma "," usually.  So going on to the next part past the comma, we see that "but if liquor is ever sold on Blackacre" so now we have this condition that will shift it to C and his (C's) heirs in fee simple, signifying that this portion of the conveyance is probably a Fee Simple subject to an executory interest since it will "shift" to someone other than the grantor, A. And then we have this quasi-back up clause where A says if that last thing I just said doesn't work, then it goes back to me with right of re-entry.

Then B dies and they ask you who gets his stuff.  I crossed off the first choice, because it says "B's heirs" and B only got a life estate, and I crossed off the last answer for the same reason, narrowing it down to choice (B) or choice (C).  Neither of which, it turns out, is correct.  So the answer is (A) it goes to B's heirs.  So I'm thinking oooooooo-k. Fine.  I guess when I flip to this PMBR answer I'm about to learn some new nuance about conveyances that will explain to me in my brain just how exactly a life estate can continue to give benefits to somebody's heirs after death.  If only that were true.  So they have the following as an explanation:

(A) For multistate purposes, students are required to know that there are two types of crops: (1) fructus naturales, those which come from nature's bounty without the aid of man, such as trees, bushes, grasses and the fruits of these, and (2) fructus industriales, those which come primarily from man's annual planting, cultivating and fertilizing, such as wheat, beans, corn and citrus fruits....

and then it goes into some distinction between the two.


So now we not only have to be lawyers, we have to be botanists as well.

Great.


Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 10, 2007, 01:17:18 PM
That's silly. I would have guessed B's heirs were entitled to the crops for the simple reason that B is the one who put all of the time, money, and energy into raising them.  The land, however, would be a different story, and that should revert back to A, right?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on July 10, 2007, 01:22:43 PM
Sands, as much as you might dislike that question, it was among the sample questions from the NCBE Preview that I was telling ya'll about last month.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: pikey on July 10, 2007, 01:23:12 PM
I actually got this one right! We covered frucutus naturales and frucutus industriales in my b law class (take that, to the business haters  :P).  Industriales are personal property, while nats are real property.  A gets the land but B's heirs get the wheat.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: cui bono? on July 10, 2007, 01:25:24 PM
  The land, however, would be a different story, and that should revert back to A, right?

That's what i thought.  But prop (specifically this garbage) =/= my forte. 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: derkaiser on July 10, 2007, 01:32:44 PM
OK folks, this is one of those WTF questions.  I almost don't even want to post it because I don't even want to taint your brains with its existence.  If fact, I only post it to tell you that this is exactly the type of thing that I will NOT be putting in my memory for the bar.  Absolutely refuse.  If it happens to be one question on the MBE, so be it.




Question 102 Property, Red Book


A deed executed by A in 1992 conveyed Blackacre for a consideration of one dollar, receipt of which was acknowledged, "to B for life, but if liquor is ever sold on Blackacre, then to C and his heirs, and if for any reason the interest hereby conveyed to C is not valid, then I reserve the right to reenter Blackacre and take back my property."  In 1994, B died before the wheat he had planted could be harvested.

102. Who is entitled to the proceeds of the crop?

(A) B's heirs
(B) C
(C) A
(D) divided equally between B's heirs and A



OK, so just going through this thing mechanically, you see the "to B for life" you know that's a life estate to B, and when he croaks, it is going to somebody else. Either back to the grantor or whoever else is after the comma "," usually.  So going on to the next part past the comma, we see that "but if liquor is ever sold on Blackacre" so now we have this condition that will shift it to C and his C's heirs in fee simple, signifying that this portion of the conveyance is probably a Fee Simple subject to an executory interest since it will "shift" to someone other than the grantor, A. And then we have this quasi-back up clause where A says if that last thing I just said doesn't work, then it goes back to me with right of re-entry.

Then B dies and they ask you who gets his stuff.  I crossed of the first choice, because it says "B's heirs" and B only got a life estate, and I crossed off the last answer for the same reason, narrowing it down to choice (B) or choice (C).  Neither of which, it turns out, is correct.  So the answer is (A) it goes to B's heirs.  So I'm thinking oooooooo-k. Fine.  I guess when I flip to this PMBR answer I'm about to learn some new nuance about conveyances that will explain to me in my brain just how exactly a life estate can continue to give benefits to somebody's heirs after death.  If only that were true.  So they have the following as an explanation:

(A) For multistate purposes, students are required to know that there are two types of crops: (1) fructus naturales, those which come from nature's bounty without the aid of man, such as trees, bushes, grasses and the fruits of these, and (2) fructus industriales, those which come primarily from man's annual planting, cultivating and fertilizing, such as wheat, beans, corn and citrus fruits....

and then it goes into some distinction between the two.


So now we not only have to be lawyers, we have to be botanists as well.

Great.




That's a silly explanation in PMBR, because it's only a partial explanation.  It's just making the distinction between natural crops and those that result from B's labor, because B, as a life tenant, is entitled to the fruits of his productive use of the property.  Thus, the proceeds from the wheat are B's property

(A) is correct because B owns the products of his productive use of the land.
(B) is wrong because C has no interests, as this clause violates the RAP.
(C) is wrong because A's reversionary interest does not entitled him to any of B's profits made off the land.
(D) is just stupid.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 10, 2007, 01:35:06 PM
::sigh:: The only justification I can see for this test is to restrict the number of people who can become lawyers.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: derkaiser on July 10, 2007, 01:37:03 PM
OK folks, this is one of those WTF questions.  I almost don't even want to post it because I don't even want to taint your brains with its existence.  If fact, I only post it to tell you that this is exactly the type of thing that I will NOT be putting in my memory for the bar.  Absolutely refuse.  If it happens to be one question on the MBE, so be it.




Question 102 Property, Red Book


A deed executed by A in 1992 conveyed Blackacre for a consideration of one dollar, receipt of which was acknowledged, "to B for life, but if liquor is ever sold on Blackacre, then to C and his heirs, and if for any reason the interest hereby conveyed to C is not valid, then I reserve the right to reenter Blackacre and take back my property."  In 1994, B died before the wheat he had planted could be harvested.

102. Who is entitled to the proceeds of the crop?

(A) B's heirs
(B) C
(C) A
(D) divided equally between B's heirs and A



OK, so just going through this thing mechanically, you see the "to B for life" you know that's a life estate to B, and when he croaks, it is going to somebody else. Either back to the grantor or whoever else is after the comma "," usually.  So going on to the next part past the comma, we see that "but if liquor is ever sold on Blackacre" so now we have this condition that will shift it to C and his C's heirs in fee simple, signifying that this portion of the conveyance is probably a Fee Simple subject to an executory interest since it will "shift" to someone other than the grantor, A. And then we have this quasi-back up clause where A says if that last thing I just said doesn't work, then it goes back to me with right of re-entry.

Then B dies and they ask you who gets his stuff.  I crossed of the first choice, because it says "B's heirs" and B only got a life estate, and I crossed off the last answer for the same reason, narrowing it down to choice (B) or choice (C).  Neither of which, it turns out, is correct.  So the answer is (A) it goes to B's heirs.  So I'm thinking oooooooo-k. Fine.  I guess when I flip to this PMBR answer I'm about to learn some new nuance about conveyances that will explain to me in my brain just how exactly a life estate can continue to give benefits to somebody's heirs after death.  If only that were true.  So they have the following as an explanation:

(A) For multistate purposes, students are required to know that there are two types of crops: (1) fructus naturales, those which come from nature's bounty without the aid of man, such as trees, bushes, grasses and the fruits of these, and (2) fructus industriales, those which come primarily from man's annual planting, cultivating and fertilizing, such as wheat, beans, corn and citrus fruits....

and then it goes into some distinction between the two.


So now we not only have to be lawyers, we have to be botanists as well.

Great.




That's a silly explanation in PMBR, because it's only a partial explanation.  It's just making the distinction between natural crops and those that result from B's labor, because B, as a life tenant, is entitled to the fruits of his productive use of the property.  Thus, the proceeds from the wheat are B's property

(A) is correct because B owns the products of his productive use of the land.
(B) is wrong because C has no interests, as this clause violates the RAP.
(C) is wrong because A's reversionary interest does not entitled him to any of B's profits made off the land.
(D) is just stupid.

Actually, upon reading that again, I was mistaken.  C's interest wouldn't violate the RAP.  Nevertheless, he's still not entitled to B's property.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on July 10, 2007, 01:54:39 PM
EXACTLY!!!!


::sigh:: The only justification I can see for this test is to restrict the number of people who can become lawyers.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 10, 2007, 02:38:38 PM
OK folks, this is one of those WTF questions.  I almost don't even want to post it because I don't even want to taint your brains with its existence.  If fact, I only post it to tell you that this is exactly the type of thing that I will NOT be putting in my memory for the bar.  Absolutely refuse.  If it happens to be one question on the MBE, so be it.




Question 102 Property, Red Book


A deed executed by A in 1992 conveyed Blackacre for a consideration of one dollar, receipt of which was acknowledged, "to B for life, but if liquor is ever sold on Blackacre, then to C and his heirs, and if for any reason the interest hereby conveyed to C is not valid, then I reserve the right to reenter Blackacre and take back my property."  In 1994, B died before the wheat he had planted could be harvested.

102. Who is entitled to the proceeds of the crop?

(A) B's heirs
(B) C
(C) A
(D) divided equally between B's heirs and A



OK, so just going through this thing mechanically, you see the "to B for life" you know that's a life estate to B, and when he croaks, it is going to somebody else. Either back to the grantor or whoever else is after the comma "," usually.  So going on to the next part past the comma, we see that "but if liquor is ever sold on Blackacre" so now we have this condition that will shift it to C and his C's heirs in fee simple, signifying that this portion of the conveyance is probably a Fee Simple subject to an executory interest since it will "shift" to someone other than the grantor, A. And then we have this quasi-back up clause where A says if that last thing I just said doesn't work, then it goes back to me with right of re-entry.

Then B dies and they ask you who gets his stuff.  I crossed of the first choice, because it says "B's heirs" and B only got a life estate, and I crossed off the last answer for the same reason, narrowing it down to choice (B) or choice (C).  Neither of which, it turns out, is correct.  So the answer is (A) it goes to B's heirs.  So I'm thinking oooooooo-k. Fine.  I guess when I flip to this PMBR answer I'm about to learn some new nuance about conveyances that will explain to me in my brain just how exactly a life estate can continue to give benefits to somebody's heirs after death.  If only that were true.  So they have the following as an explanation:

(A) For multistate purposes, students are required to know that there are two types of crops: (1) fructus naturales, those which come from nature's bounty without the aid of man, such as trees, bushes, grasses and the fruits of these, and (2) fructus industriales, those which come primarily from man's annual planting, cultivating and fertilizing, such as wheat, beans, corn and citrus fruits....

and then it goes into some distinction between the two.


So now we not only have to be lawyers, we have to be botanists as well.

Great.




That's a silly explanation in PMBR, because it's only a partial explanation.  It's just making the distinction between natural crops and those that result from B's labor, because B, as a life tenant, is entitled to the fruits of his productive use of the property.  Thus, the proceeds from the wheat are B's property

(A) is correct because B owns the products of his productive use of the land.
(B) is wrong because C has no interests, as this clause violates the RAP.
(C) is wrong because A's reversionary interest does not entitled him to any of B's profits made off the land.
(D) is just stupid.

Actually, upon reading that again, I was mistaken.  C's interest wouldn't violate the RAP.  Nevertheless, he's still not entitled to B's property.


No I think you were correct the first time.  Not to get sidetracked with RAP (which i will be skipping on the actual exam) but I think there IS a RAP violation if we cannot know whether the interest will vest in some ascertainable person within 21 years of the grant (paraphrasing in my own words to avoid the mechanical rule which never makes sense to me) so looking at this thing "to B for life, but if liquor is ever sold on the property to C & his heirs" B could die tomorrow, staring the clock, and liquor could then be sold 22 years later on the property making the shift come after the 21 year RAP period....

...but then again you make a point, since its to B for life it would revert back to A so I guess maybe we would know who the interest will vest in 21 years from now.

Uhg.  Like I said, out of the 33 property questions on the MBE, there may be 1, at most 2, dealing with RAP.  So the good news is for many of these confusing topics, just let 'em go and keep it moving.

True story, a lawyer in California misapplied the Rule Against Perpetuities which costs his client mad $$$ in damages, the client sued for malpractice and the case ended up in the California Supreme Court which acquitted the lawyer and dismissed the malpractice charge because the Court reasoned that most lawyers in the state do not understand the rule and to hold that one lawyer accountable would not be fair or equitable.


 ;D


EXACTLY!!!!


::sigh:: The only justification I can see for this test is to restrict the number of people who can become lawyers.

Big fat Co-Sign.

And even then, it only limits the number of people who can be lawyers right now, because they get to take the same stupid test as many times as they want until they pass, thereby increasing the state bar's bank account to no end.


 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: cui bono? on July 10, 2007, 02:39:22 PM
OH god, RAP never wanna see that ish again
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on July 10, 2007, 03:13:38 PM
To add even more fun to the property questions, along comes this little gem, also from the red book:

121. Winston owned a 100-acre farm in Salem. For many years, Winston grew tobacco on a 10-acre strip located in the nort-east section of the property. In March, Winston planted his annual tabacco croop which he usually harvested in early October. In September, Wintson sold his farm to Raleigh for $100,000. At the time Winston conveyed the property to Raleigh, the tobacco crop was well developed and quite mature. When Winston and Raleigh entered into their land sale agreement, there was no mention of the status or ownership of the tobacco crop.

In early October, after Raleigh took possession of the property, Winston contacted him and requested permission to harvest and remove the tobacco crop. Raleigh refused to allow Winston to re-enter the proeprty.

Winston brings suit against Raleigh seeking to re-enter the property and remove the tobacco crop which he had planted. Which of the following is correct regarding the respective rights of the parties?
a) Winston is entitled to remove the tobacco crop, but he must pay Raleigh a reasonable value to enter the property thus gaining access to the crop.
b) Winston is entitled to remove the tobacco crop, and is not required to pay Raleigh for entering the property and thus gaining access tot he crop.
c) Winston is not entitled to remove the tobacco crop, and thus is not entitled to re-enter the property.
d) Winston and Raleigh each have colorable title to the tobacco crop, and consequently there should be an equitable division of the proceeds of the sale of the crop between both parties.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 10, 2007, 03:17:54 PM
I'm going to say C, since Winston should have made some provision for the crops and Raleigh might have thought he was getting the crops in the purchase price.  Alternatively, D.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 10, 2007, 03:55:48 PM
To add even more fun to the property questions, along comes this little gem, also from the red book:

121. Winston owned a 100-acre farm in Salem. For many years, Winston grew tobacco on a 10-acre strip located in the nort-east section of the property. In March, Winston planted his annual tabacco croop which he usually harvested in early October. In September, Wintson sold his farm to Raleigh for $100,000. At the time Winston conveyed the property to Raleigh, the tobacco crop was well developed and quite mature. When Winston and Raleigh entered into their land sale agreement, there was no mention of the status or ownership of the tobacco crop.

In early October, after Raleigh took possession of the property, Winston contacted him and requested permission to harvest and remove the tobacco crop. Raleigh refused to allow Winston to re-enter the proeprty.

Winston brings suit against Raleigh seeking to re-enter the property and remove the tobacco crop which he had planted. Which of the following is correct regarding the respective rights of the parties?
a) Winston is entitled to remove the tobacco crop, but he must pay Raleigh a reasonable value to enter the property thus gaining access to the crop.
b) Winston is entitled to remove the tobacco crop, and is not required to pay Raleigh for entering the property and thus gaining access tot he crop.
c) Winston is not entitled to remove the tobacco crop, and thus is not entitled to re-enter the property.
d) Winston and Raleigh each have colorable title to the tobacco crop, and consequently there should be an equitable division of the proceeds of the sale of the crop between both parties.


How about I still got this one wrong.  Again. :P
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on July 10, 2007, 05:08:32 PM
I didn't .

Maybe I'm learning this stuff better than I thought!

To add even more fun to the property questions, along comes this little gem, also from the red book:

121. Winston owned a 100-acre farm in Salem. For many years, Winston grew tobacco on a 10-acre strip located in the nort-east section of the property. In March, Winston planted his annual tabacco croop which he usually harvested in early October. In September, Wintson sold his farm to Raleigh for $100,000. At the time Winston conveyed the property to Raleigh, the tobacco crop was well developed and quite mature. When Winston and Raleigh entered into their land sale agreement, there was no mention of the status or ownership of the tobacco crop.

In early October, after Raleigh took possession of the property, Winston contacted him and requested permission to harvest and remove the tobacco crop. Raleigh refused to allow Winston to re-enter the proeprty.

Winston brings suit against Raleigh seeking to re-enter the property and remove the tobacco crop which he had planted. Which of the following is correct regarding the respective rights of the parties?
a) Winston is entitled to remove the tobacco crop, but he must pay Raleigh a reasonable value to enter the property thus gaining access to the crop.
b) Winston is entitled to remove the tobacco crop, and is not required to pay Raleigh for entering the property and thus gaining access tot he crop.
c) Winston is not entitled to remove the tobacco crop, and thus is not entitled to re-enter the property.
d) Winston and Raleigh each have colorable title to the tobacco crop, and consequently there should be an equitable division of the proceeds of the sale of the crop between both parties.


How about I still got this one wrong.  Again. :P
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: pikey on July 11, 2007, 09:33:09 AM
I'm gonna say a or b, since the crops are technically personal property.  If I remember correctly, personal property is assumed to belong to the seller, unless there is specific provision otherwise.  Since there is no contractual provision, the crops belong to Winston.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 11, 2007, 11:45:03 AM
Lol bar studying drives you to do crazy things:

A Bad Way To Procrastinate While Studying for the Bar

Phillip Pilie Phillip R Pilie Philip Pilie Philip R Pilie Phil Pilie Abovethelaw Above the Law blog.jpgMany of you are studying for bar exams at the end of this month. You read ATL while procrastinating -- and perhaps you feel guilty about it.

But you shouldn't. There are far worse ways to procrastinate.

Like using the internet to set up trysts with underage females -- who turn out to be undercover detectives. This email was forwarded to us yesterday:

    From: [UGA Law grad]
    Date: Jul 10, 2007 1:32 PM
    Subject: Another great moment for UGA Law!
    To: [Various other UGA Law alumni]

    Philip Pilie... a graduating 3L this past May. See these links.

More background, from a tipster:

    Guy in question was studying for the Louisiana Bar Exam before he got picked up [for computer-aided solicitation for sexual purposes and attempted indecent behavior with a juvenile].

    He was a Georgia Law '07 grad, with a job lined up at Baker Donelson (a big firm for the city) in New Orleans. All of that is obviously not going to happen now.

    Kicker is this: If you Google his online handle, it comes up with forum posts for a bunch of fashion sites. In one he gives lengthy fashion advice...

Read more about the Prada Predator, after the jump.

The story is a bit old (from last month), but it's juicy enough so that we don't care. From the New-Orleans Times Picayune:

    Philip R. Pilie, 26, of New Orleans, was picked up Wednesday at 5:53 p.m. when he arrived at a meeting place in Kenner to meet the girl, who actually was an undercover detective posing as a juvenile, police said.

    Pilie, who used the screen name nola5671, chatted with a person he believed to be a girl, starting Wednesday about 3:45 p.m., police said. He told her he wanted to meet the girl at her home and have sex, police said.

    He described the vehicle he would be driving during the chat that ended at 5:18 p.m., police said. He was arrested when he arrived at the prearranged location in the car he had described, police said.

You'd think a law school grad would know better. Guess they hadn't reached Crim Law in Bar/Bri yet.

    Pilie was booked with computer-aided solicitation for sexual purposes and attempted indecent behavior with a juvenile. He was released Thursday from the Jefferson Parish Correctional Center on a $12,500 personal surety bond, police said.

So Phil Pilie is out on bail -- and remains innocent until proven guilty. Maybe he'll sit for the bar after all?

If the whole "law" thing doesn't work out for him, though, we think he has a promising career as a style columnist for a men's magazine. Check out his impressive reflections upon designer jeans.

Who wouldn't want fashion pointers from a guy with such fine taste in women female juveniles?

http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/07/a_bad_way_to_procrastinate_whi_1.php#more
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on July 11, 2007, 01:38:11 PM
So bar exam prep isn't giving you enough to do?  Especially in Louisiana, where the law is so different from the rest of the country?

This is pathetic.

Lol bar studying drives you to do crazy things:

A Bad Way To Procrastinate While Studying for the Bar

Phillip Pilie Phillip R Pilie Philip Pilie Philip R Pilie Phil Pilie Abovethelaw Above the Law blog.jpgMany of you are studying for bar exams at the end of this month. You read ATL while procrastinating -- and perhaps you feel guilty about it.

But you shouldn't. There are far worse ways to procrastinate.

Like using the internet to set up trysts with underage females -- who turn out to be undercover detectives. This email was forwarded to us yesterday:

    From: [UGA Law grad]
    Date: Jul 10, 2007 1:32 PM
    Subject: Another great moment for UGA Law!
    To: [Various other UGA Law alumni]

    Philip Pilie... a graduating 3L this past May. See these links.

More background, from a tipster:

    Guy in question was studying for the Louisiana Bar Exam before he got picked up [for computer-aided solicitation for sexual purposes and attempted indecent behavior with a juvenile].

    He was a Georgia Law '07 grad, with a job lined up at Baker Donelson (a big firm for the city) in New Orleans. All of that is obviously not going to happen now.

    Kicker is this: If you Google his online handle, it comes up with forum posts for a bunch of fashion sites. In one he gives lengthy fashion advice...

Read more about the Prada Predator, after the jump.

The story is a bit old (from last month), but it's juicy enough so that we don't care. From the New-Orleans Times Picayune:

    Philip R. Pilie, 26, of New Orleans, was picked up Wednesday at 5:53 p.m. when he arrived at a meeting place in Kenner to meet the girl, who actually was an undercover detective posing as a juvenile, police said.

    Pilie, who used the screen name nola5671, chatted with a person he believed to be a girl, starting Wednesday about 3:45 p.m., police said. He told her he wanted to meet the girl at her home and have sex, police said.

    He described the vehicle he would be driving during the chat that ended at 5:18 p.m., police said. He was arrested when he arrived at the prearranged location in the car he had described, police said.

You'd think a law school grad would know better. Guess they hadn't reached Crim Law in Bar/Bri yet.

    Pilie was booked with computer-aided solicitation for sexual purposes and attempted indecent behavior with a juvenile. He was released Thursday from the Jefferson Parish Correctional Center on a $12,500 personal surety bond, police said.

So Phil Pilie is out on bail -- and remains innocent until proven guilty. Maybe he'll sit for the bar after all?

If the whole "law" thing doesn't work out for him, though, we think he has a promising career as a style columnist for a men's magazine. Check out his impressive reflections upon designer jeans.

Who wouldn't want fashion pointers from a guy with such fine taste in women female juveniles?

http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/07/a_bad_way_to_procrastinate_whi_1.php#more
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 11, 2007, 08:03:28 PM
Right.  That's wild.


So we had our PMBR 3 day start today.  Took the exam and got the same low score as I did on the BarBri joint.  Now before, I thought it was just me because I had nothing to reference my performance off of, but I've been taking 100 questions/day ever since July 1, which is effectively doing an MBE every two days, and I've been hitting around 162, 159, 160, even got a 172 on one with some lucky guessing...so when I got this score I was like "hmmmmm....something's not right here." 

Turns out jd06 and all the rest of those who have taken the bar already are correct when they say that the PMBR test is harder than the bar.  IT IS!!!  I have confirmation folks, you heard it here first! (well maybe not first but you heard it here)  As I was saying, after I got the results back today I was lookin at the exam kinda sideways like, how I go from a steady set of practice scores up here, and end up down there?  So, being a PMBR rep, I went over and started talking to the PMBR head director who was here today and was like "look man, just level with me, don't give me any of that stuff you tell the clients, what gives with this exam?"  He said (as best as I can remember word-for-word): "[Burning Sands] the common myth out there is that the PMBR questions are harder than the actual bar exam questions, and that's actually not true.  Technically.  The MBE is made up of different levels of questions.  A portion of them are at what the bar examiners consider the 'difficult' level, some are at the 'easy' level, and the rest in the middle.  The majority of the questions on the actual MBE are at the 'middle' level.  When it comes to PMBR questions v. the actual bar exam questions, their easy questions = our easy questions.  Their middle questions = our middle questions. Their hard questions = our hard questions.  So our 'questions' are not harder.  HOWEVER when it comes to the PMBR simulated exam, what we have done is to remove all of the middle level questions and replace them with  hard level questions. So basically what you're taking is an entire exam worth of the most difficult questions that you will encounter on the bar exam."


A-hAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



I feel like just I cracked the secret code or something.  I knew something wasn't right.  This makes perfect sense from what jd06 and the rest of the people I know who have taken the bar and passed (or failed) have all confirmed.  You always here the same story - that they did not-so-good on the practice questions and then somehow, magically, their scores shoots up to 130 or 140 or 150 on the MBE.  This is why.


Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on July 11, 2007, 10:00:53 PM
I'd heard that the PMBR questions were a lot harder than the "real" MBE. We'll see. I start 3-day on Friday.

BTW, if I recall, the answer was C. The crops are personal property, but they go along with the sale.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on July 12, 2007, 09:26:14 AM
I've heard that too.  My three day starts tomorrow as well.

I'd heard that the PMBR questions were a lot harder than the "real" MBE. We'll see. I start 3-day on Friday.

BTW, if I recall, the answer was C. The crops are personal property, but they go along with the sale.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 12, 2007, 09:56:22 AM
Alright well good luck to both of you and remember, don't EVEN trip if you only pull 50% out of this one.  These are the hardest questions the bar examiners have to throw at us all compiled into one test.

Was talking to a graduate from last year who took this and got a 79/200.  Took the real thing 2 weeks later, got a 140. 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: cui bono? on July 12, 2007, 03:04:51 PM
Good luck guys  :-*
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on July 12, 2007, 04:09:26 PM
Sounds good.  Thanks for the heads up.

Alright well good luck to both of you and remember, don't EVEN trip if you only pull 50% out of this one.  These are the hardest questions the bar examiners have to throw at us all compiled into one test.

Was talking to a graduate from last year who took this and got a 79/200.  Took the real thing 2 weeks later, got a 140. 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 12, 2007, 04:30:29 PM
Well folks, I think this is about the end of the road for me.  We are just inside the infamous 2 week mark.  Taking out the cell phone battery, disconnecting the wireless adapter.  About to increase my 12 hour day into about a 16 hour day from here on out and start acclimating my body to waking up and actually being able to hold a thought at 8am so I can be like SMU.  I am not one who gratuitously tells others that things will just work out unless I mean it, so believe me when I say based on the work we've put in on here folks, we are in a VERY good position to pass this stupid bar exam.

There are few students who I have talked to who passed on their first try who have been hitting MBE questions for as long as we have.  Each time I interview one, they tell me that we are way ahead of the game when it comes to what we've been doing since May with the MBE's and the essays.  This last 2 weeks is just a "bring it all together" fine tuning period where you go over all this stuff that we've done, pick up whatever else you haven't got to by now, do whatever you need to do in order to make it make sense for you, and you do it ad nauseum until the 24th.

Appreciate everybody's support thought this thing.  See you guys on the other side.

That being said, thought I'd leave you guys with this:



You make eloquent the tongues of infants.
Refine my speech and pour forth upon my lips the goodness of Your blessing.

Grant to me
keenness of mind,
capacity to remember,
skill in learning,
subtlety to interpret,
and eloquence in speech.

May you
guide the beginning of my work,
direct its progress,
and bring it to completion.

You Who are true God and true Man,
Who live and reign, world without end.

Amen.




Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on July 12, 2007, 04:33:38 PM
Dang, Sands. We'll see you in August.

Blessings to you in your exam preparation.  We'll miss you!

Though I don't think I'll be studying more than 12 hours a day . . .hats off to you. 

We will all pass, the first time, and we will look back in this thread later on in the year and be proud . . . and probably laugh.


Well folks, I think this is about the end of the road for me.  We are just inside the infamous 2 week mark.  Taking out the cell phone batter, disconnecting the wireless adapter.  About to increase my 12 hour day into about a 16 hour day from here on out and start acclimating my body to waking up and actually being able to hold a thought at 8am so I can be like SMU.  I am not one who gratuitously tells others that things will just work out unless I mean it, so believe me when I say based on the work we've put in on here folks, we are in a VERY good position to pass this stupid bar exam.

There are few students who I have talked to who passed on their first try who have been hitting MBE questions for as long as we have.  Each time I interview one, they tell me that we are way ahead of the game when it comes to what we've been doing since May with the MBE's and the essays.  This last 2 weeks is just a "bring it all together" fine tuning period where you go over all this stuff that we've done, pick up whatever else you haven't got to by now, do whatever you need to do in order to make it make sense for you, and you do it ad nauseum until the 24th.

Appreciate everybody's support thought this thing.  See you guys on the other side.

That being said, thought I'd leave you guys with this:



You make eloquent the tongues of infants.
Refine my speech and pour forth upon my lips the goodness of Your blessing.

Grant to me
keenness of mind,
capacity to remember,
skill in learning,
subtlety to interpret,
and eloquence in speech.

May you
guide the beginning of my work,
direct its progress,
and bring it to completion.

You Who are true God and true Man,
Who live and reign, world without end.

Amen.





Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on July 12, 2007, 04:59:31 PM
I should take myself offline. I haven't, yet. It's a bit tougher when I'll be using the laptop for the test.

Best of luck to each of you and any lurkers who may be out there.

I got my seat assignment today; that makes it all particularly real.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 12, 2007, 05:15:36 PM
We will all pass, the first time, and we will look back in this thread later on in the year and be proud . . . and probably laugh.

...at us :D

Good luck to everyone!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: pikey on July 13, 2007, 10:09:46 AM
:)  GOOD LUCK!!!!   :)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on July 13, 2007, 05:01:32 PM
Did the PMBR test today.

Got 93 right.

They say that I am just slightly below average.

I can live with that.


We will all pass, the first time, and we will look back in this thread later on in the year and be proud . . . and probably laugh.

...at us :D

Good luck to everyone!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on July 13, 2007, 05:46:06 PM
Good job, smujd!

Kind of funny when you think of it...how hard we're working now, just hoping to be average.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: yourlocalsuperhero on July 13, 2007, 11:29:40 PM
You make eloquent the tongues of infants.
Refine my speech and pour forth upon my lips the goodness of Your blessing.

Grant to me
keenness of mind,
capacity to remember,
skill in learning,
subtlety to interpret,
and eloquence in speech.

May you
guide the beginning of my work,
direct its progress,
and bring it to completion.

You Who are true God and true Man,
Who live and reign, world without end.

Amen.

Sands,

I wish you very well and have total confidence in your success -- like everyone else.  Honestly.

But Jesus stuff?  It's just that you got such a sure thing; myth aint got nothing to do with it. 

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 14, 2007, 06:20:46 AM
Oh shut up.  Who are you to question his faith, especially right now?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on July 14, 2007, 06:40:28 AM
You make eloquent the tongues of infants.
Refine my speech and pour forth upon my lips the goodness of Your blessing.

Grant to me
keenness of mind,
capacity to remember,
skill in learning,
subtlety to interpret,
and eloquence in speech.

May you
guide the beginning of my work,
direct its progress,
and bring it to completion.

You Who are true God and true Man,
Who live and reign, world without end.

Amen.

Sands,

I wish you very well and have total confidence in your success -- like everyone else.  Honestly.

But Jesus stuff?  It's just that you got such a sure thing; myth aint got nothing to do with it. 

Belief in ones self can come from many sources including family, friends, faith.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: cui bono? on July 14, 2007, 11:01:23 AM
Oh shut up.  Who are you to question his faith, especially right now?

Cosign.  Needs any boost that he can get rt. now


Here goes another Ra Ra session (LOL SMU thinks I'm a cheerleader :D):  You guys are gonna do just great.  You will be laughing about all this in a few.  Stay encouraged.  Continue to have faith in yourself (wherever it derives from)and in all your hardwork.  You owe it to yourself not to be in self doubt. 

<---- wants you to hire her when ya'll are big time  ;D
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: «ě» on July 15, 2007, 01:48:40 PM
Delusions != boost.

Start believing in yourselves instead.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: pikey on July 15, 2007, 02:05:00 PM
Delusions != boost.

Start believing in yourselves instead.

Once again, stfu noob.  Believing in God =/= not believing in yourself
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: «ě» on July 15, 2007, 02:12:40 PM
Delusions != boost.

Start believing in yourselves instead.

Once again, stfu noob.  Believing in God =/= not believing in yourself
There's a correlation. If you believed in yourself, you wouldn't need to believe in some magical invisible person to make everything ok. You could make everything ok yourself.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: pikey on July 15, 2007, 02:17:00 PM
Delusions != boost.

Start believing in yourselves instead.

Once again, stfu noob.  Believing in God =/= not believing in yourself
There's a correlation. If you believed in yourself, you wouldn't need to believe in some magical invisible person to make everything ok. You could make everything ok yourself.

 I forgot you know everything.  I'm sure you're right. ::)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: «ě» on July 15, 2007, 02:18:18 PM
I forgot you know everything.  I'm sure you're right. ::)

Woohoo, I win!  ;D
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on July 15, 2007, 04:41:18 PM
Delusions != boost.

Start believing in yourselves instead.
I have respect for Sands. I extend that respect to his beliefs as he expressed them. He's not trying to make you swear to anything. Check the animosity at the door. It's not helpful, and it's not relevant.

With that, I'm off to study.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: «ě» on July 15, 2007, 05:43:44 PM
I have respect for Sands too. Not so much for his beliefs, although I know I'm supposed to. I just can't find it in me.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: pikey on July 15, 2007, 06:52:19 PM
I have respect for Sands too. Not so much for his beliefs, although I know I'm supposed to. I just can't find it in me.

If you really respected him, you wouldn't have made your comments.  They were out of order and completely unnecessary.

Sometimes we all need to follow MamaCahow's advice: if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 16, 2007, 03:40:31 PM
If she can do it, you all can:

http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/07/the_bar_exam_if_at_first_you_d_1.php
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on July 16, 2007, 05:44:22 PM
If she can do it, you all can:

http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/07/the_bar_exam_if_at_first_you_d_1.php
Uh...thanks...I think. (Geez...14 times...but at least I have skills I can fall back upon...but 14 times? I don't think so...)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on July 16, 2007, 06:43:41 PM
Oh, no.

I would not have put my family through all of that!

Besides, I am only doing this once . . . for Texas, anyway.

By the way, this last minute cramming sucks bricks.  I have stopped taking breaks.  >:( >:( >:( >:(

If she can do it, you all can:

http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/07/the_bar_exam_if_at_first_you_d_1.php
Uh...thanks...I think. (Geez...14 times...but at least I have skills I can fall back upon...but 14 times? I don't think so...)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: cui bono? on July 17, 2007, 07:07:05 AM
I have respect for Sands too. Not so much for his beliefs, although I know I'm supposed to. I just can't find it in me.

If you really respected him, you wouldn't have made your comments.  They were out of order and completely unnecessary.

Sometimes we all need to follow MamaCahow's advice: if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all.

interesting (bolded). 

Anyway, I think respecting the fact that Sands believes in something doesnt mean that you necessarily have to believe it.  But I don't think it's disrepecting him to disagree as long as you do so respectfully.  I don't think he'd care either way so the argument is pretty pointless.  Those that have faith have faith regardless of who doesn't. It's the bar-  if he wants to believe that his make believe friend Bob is gonna give him the answers then so be it (no I'm not saying religion is akin to that)!  But since it's bar time, let's table that discussion for another time.  They need   deserve our support. 

If she can do it, you all can:

http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/07/the_bar_exam_if_at_first_you_d_1.php
Uh...thanks...I think. (Geez...14 times...but at least I have skills I can fall back upon...but 14 times? I don't think so...)

14??  WOW. Yeah, I dunno if I'd do that
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on July 20, 2007, 10:45:19 PM
At this point, I'm just ready for this whole thing to be over.

Thanks for the good thoughts, all...they do help.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on July 21, 2007, 05:30:16 PM
Yes, ready for it to be over. . .

Just going over and over and over flashcards now.

Hey, guess what?  My brother wants to be a police officer, so I was doing some investigation in my "copious" time.

The police officers in Arlington, Texas, with Bachelor's degrees start off making $54,000.

Should I be rethinking my career choice?   

At this point, I'm just ready for this whole thing to be over.

Thanks for the good thoughts, all...they do help.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on July 21, 2007, 09:16:29 PM
There's lots of cops with law degrees.

Best of luck to you!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 21, 2007, 09:57:12 PM
Hey gang, just thought I'd stop in while I'm on this break.  I'm up here doing a round robin of all the topics with about half a dozen cats from the school.  It can be slow at times with that many people but it definitely helps a lot to be able to talk this stuff out to others and hear it bounced back to you.  Just today alone I've had quite a few "WOW...I absolutely did not know that" moments.

I see you guys are feeling exactly like I'm feeling.  We're so close I can hardly focus b/c every time I sit down with this stuff I keep thinking "ok, in 5 more days we are DONE with this *&^%."  I just want my life back at this point.  Let us be done with this hazing so we can get on with life. Sheesh.

Have had a few more convo's with people who passed last year and stuff... each person makes it seem that the stuff that we've done over the past few months is way more than what they did last year. 


From here on out its all about building up that confidence. 


Gonna look over that essay book about 100 more times between now and Tuesday.  Also, I don't know about ya'll but I'll def be doing a few quick MBE questions during the morning of to reboot my slow brain. 


Stay up, ya'll, we're almost there.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on July 22, 2007, 07:38:31 PM
Lol.  I am SO ready for this to be over with!

I have been looking at flashcards all day today.  I am done looking at the books it is all about the charts and flashcards that I made (and PMBR).

As for doing questions before the actual exam, I might have to do that myself. Maybe about 10 after breakfast, just to get it going, thinking in that multiple choice mode.

But I have day one to worry about first:  civil procedure and MPT.

Blessings to everyone  (at least those who are religious) . . . it is almost over!!

I am with you, Sands . . .  soooooo ready to get my life back. 


There's lots of cops with law degrees.

Best of luck to you!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on July 22, 2007, 08:13:02 PM
I agree on the ready to be over.

You guys can do it! We can all do it!

My only concern right now...sort of slight, in a major way. My laptop bluescreened earlier today. It lost the wireless for a bit yesterday.

I'm thinking of bagging the laptop and just handwriting. I'd rather type, but I don't want to be doing this in February because of Dell.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on July 23, 2007, 02:50:13 PM
Yikes!  That's no fun.

In Texas at least, you can use your laptop and then bluebook if something happens to your computer.

I'll be praying that the situation is resolved.

Yes, we can all do it!!  I made a dry run to the Arlington Convention Center, where the test is going to be held.  It took me 14 minutes to get there from my apartment. Got my earplugs, pens, ID and admission ticket in a plastic baggie. And my digital watch. 

A few more hours of studying and I will be ready for day one . . . 8:00 am tomorrow morning.

Good luck everyone!!!

I agree on the ready to be over.

You guys can do it! We can all do it!

My only concern right now...sort of slight, in a major way. My laptop bluescreened earlier today. It lost the wireless for a bit yesterday.

I'm thinking of bagging the laptop and just handwriting. I'd rather type, but I don't want to be doing this in February because of Dell.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on July 23, 2007, 02:52:30 PM
good luck to all of you!!!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 23, 2007, 03:22:05 PM
Slacker, that's serious biz.  Sorry to hear.  Take both paper and computer just in case and ask them what the procedure is for laptops crashing when you get there.  New York gives us memory sticks that you MUST put in when you start and our program keeps saving your exam every like 2 minutes or something like that.  I'm assuming Illinois has something similar.

SMU, I think I have successfully displaced all MBE and Common Law knowledge, and have duly replaced it with state specific mumbo jumbo in preparation for tomorrow.  Good job on mapping out the time to the site.  Speaking of strategy, since we have to keep our lunches in our bags and check our bags in (which will take about 30-45 minutes with 10,000 people standing in line) I'm about to roll over to Manhattan in a few hours with my roommate, put my lunch in a cooler and put all my notes and crap in my car and park it at a nearby lot overnight.  The $25-30 bucks they charge me will be well worth the hour I save trying to check out and then check back in my bag during the lunch break.

Sheesh.


I find this stuff has about a 48 hour life span in my brain, and I've looked over everything at least once between yesterday and today so I hope/pray it's still in there somewhere ready to come out tomorrow when I need it.


Plan is to be in the bed by 10pm - up and ready by 6am, out the door by 6:30.


Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: ohstacey on July 23, 2007, 03:27:07 PM
Best wishes to all on exam day(s)!!  ;D

You'll be lawyers soon! I'm sooo jealous! (believe it or not) :D
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on July 23, 2007, 06:52:17 PM
No lunch tomorrow . . . only testing in the morning.  Then about 6 hrs of cramming for the MBE, a couple hours going over stuff for the essays (to make sure it stays for Thursday) and I'll be set.

My hubby is bringing me lunch on Wednesday and Thursday.  He says that I shouldn't be out in the heat. . . . it will zap my energy. :)
Plus, it will be good to see a face that is not a zoned out bar examinee!! :)

Slacker, that's serious biz.  Sorry to hear.  Take both paper and computer just in case and ask them what the procedure is for laptops crashing when you get there.  New York gives us memory sticks that you MUST put in when you start and our program keeps saving your exam every like 2 minutes or something like that.  I'm assuming Illinois has something similar.

SMU, I think I have successfully displaced all MBE and Common Law knowledge, and have duly replaced it with state specific mumbo jumbo in preparation for tomorrow.  Good job on mapping out the time to the site.  Speaking of strategy, since we have to keep our lunches in our bags and check our bags in (which will take about 30-45 minutes with 10,000 people standing in line) I'm about to roll over to Manhattan in a few hours with my roommate, put my lunch in a cooler and put all my notes and crap in my car and park it at a nearby lot overnight.  The $25-30 bucks they charge me will be well worth the hour I save trying to check out and then check back in my bag during the lunch break.

Sheesh.


I find this stuff has about a 48 hour life span in my brain, and I've looked over everything at least once between yesterday and today so I hope/pray it's still in there somewhere ready to come out tomorrow when I need it.


Plan is to be in the bed by 10pm - up and ready by 6am, out the door by 6:30.



Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: pikey on July 24, 2007, 06:26:45 AM
I know y'all prolly won't get this until after you're done, but GOOD LUCK!!!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Pulchritudinous Male on July 24, 2007, 09:30:39 AM
Henry T Asher. Phi Nu Pi.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 24, 2007, 07:01:34 PM
Appreciate it, nupe.

Thanks Cahow.

I have to get this out of my brain while it's still floating around in here.  Day 1 done.  Local day.  All I can say is..."those sneaky little rat bastards!"  Without boring folks with the details, on the very first essay they ended up asking a question on this obscure subject that had not been tested since the February exam in 1997.  Rat bastards two times!  Who knew?  But...I didn't even trip. I took it on the chin like a champ and started BS'ing about whatever I knew that was somewhat-quasi-relevant.  With any mercy, I got "a" point on that stupid thing.

I only hope and pray that the rest of my exam answers made up for that first one, cause after that first one it was:

NY Bar Examiners: 1
Burning Sands: 0

LOL :D


Gotta go get the brain ready for MBE mode.  Later folks.


EDIT: BTW, about 2 hours into the exam this cat started crying in front of his laptop which had a blank screen, and then about a half an hour later cat stood up, packed up his stuff and walked out of the Jacob Javits center.  Straight up.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 25, 2007, 07:11:20 AM
This doesn't sound like fun: http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/07/new_york_bar_exam_horror_stori.php#more

Hope your essays made it through, Sands.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: almostlegal on July 25, 2007, 07:21:35 AM
My husband is taking it right now, and I am totally stressing about it.

We set 7 alarm clocks so that he would definitely get up on time.

Good luck everyone!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: ohstacey on July 25, 2007, 09:42:43 AM
Appreciate it, nupe.

Thanks Cahow.

I have to get this out of my brain while it's still floating around in here.  Day 1 done.  Local day.  All I can say is..."those sneaky little rat bastards!"  Without boring folks with the details, on the very first essay they ended up asking a question on this obscure subject that had not been tested since the February exam in 1997.  Rat bastards two times!  Who knew?  But...I didn't even trip. I took it on the chin like a champ and started BS'ing about whatever I knew that was somewhat-quasi-relevant.  With any mercy, I got "a" point on that stupid thing.

I only hope and pray that the rest of my exam answers made up for that first one, cause after that first one it was:

NY Bar Examiners: 1
Burning Sands: 0

LOL :D


Gotta go get the brain ready for MBE mode.  Later folks.


EDIT: BTW, about 2 hours into the exam this cat started crying in front of his laptop which had a blank screen, and then about a half an hour later cat stood up, packed up his stuff and walked out of the Jacob Javits center.  Straight up.

DAAAAAAAAAAAAYUMMMM to the bolded.  :o:'(
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 25, 2007, 07:22:13 PM
I was one of the lucky ones who didn't have a problem with the laptop (thank you Lord).  I couldn't imagine having a problem with that thing.  This is not the time to have glitches in the matrix.

MBE day down.  I feel somewhere between so-so and decent.  Knew some, didn't know others, praying about the rest.

New Jersey tomorrow and then I'm going to get "friggin' wasted, duuuuude"
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: derkaiser on July 25, 2007, 07:32:24 PM



EDIT: BTW, about 2 hours into the exam this cat started crying in front of his laptop which had a blank screen, and then about a half an hour later cat stood up, packed up his stuff and walked out of the Jacob Javits center.  Straight up.

Blank screen meaning his laptop crashed, or blank screen as in the dude sat there for a couple hours without writing anything?  Or could you tell? 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 25, 2007, 07:51:17 PM
Blank as in the guy didn't know what to write.  My buddy from NYU had a better view than I did. 

Come to think of it, there were noticeably quite a few empty seats today from people who just didn't come back.

That first question was a mother.  I think they threw that on there intentionally just to mess with our heads.  It was on a topic that had very low probability of being tested. I had to flip forward to the other essays just to get my bearings back, and then when I was ready, I attempted to deal with the first essay as best I could.  Made the best out of a bad situation.

 :P



My husband is taking it right now, and I am totally stressing about it.

We set 7 alarm clocks so that he would definitely get up on time.

Good luck everyone!


Did the same thing.  Well, not 7 but I definitely have multiple alarms set for 6am.  I even used my cell phone alarm just in case there was a power outage.

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on July 26, 2007, 11:23:21 AM
I decided to ditch my laptop at the last minute and handwrote everything. I didn't hear of anyone having tech issues, but I was ok not depending on my personal increasingly undependable laptop.

Overall, I thought the IL essays weren't bad. The MBE did my head in, though.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on July 26, 2007, 04:39:04 PM
THANK YOU JESUS IT IS OVER!!!!

I just got home after day three of the Texas Bar Exam.  I really don't know what to do with myself at this point.

I didn't type.  I haven't heard of anyone having trouble with their laptops where I took the test.

As for me, day one, I felt okay.  Procedure and evidence and the MPT.  Not perfect, but I feel alright. 

Second day: MBE.  I felt pretty good in the morning, but the afternoon whipped me.

Third day:  Essays.  Sands, I think, like NY, Texas put an exam question that seemed impossible at the beginning.  It was a highly tested area, its just that the way that it was phrased led people to think that it was a lot of different things that it wasn't.  I guessed on one part, think I figured the other part out pretty well, and kept it moving.

Also, when I felt myself getting discouraged on any of the three days, I stopped took a deep breath, and wrote: "It is already done in the name of Jesus" somewhere in the test booklet, and kept it moving. 

The only thing I ran out of time on was the MPT.  I still managed to complete it, but it just wasn't the best writing sample in the world.

Now . . . the waiting starts.  November 2?  Pure torture.  That's more than 3 months. 

I don't know what to do with myself now.  Take a little time to breathe and then start looking for gainful employment I guess . . .  studying for the bar and not working will make you broke.

   
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: jd06 on July 26, 2007, 04:52:02 PM
Congratulations to smujd and all those who ran the gauntlet this week.  smujd2007, I enjoy reading your comments - always thoughtful.  I was similarly situated last summer.  Had the JD in hand, finished the bar exam, and woke up the next day back in the real world in a panic 'cause I didn't have a job.  Just bear in mind that the hard part is OVER.  Don't know where you are re the job search, but be diligent and you'll likely find a firm that'll take you on as a clerk and let you transition into an associate in November.  Took me about six weeks but I got there.  Congratulations again!  It only gets better from here.  Really. :)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on July 26, 2007, 06:12:59 PM
Yes, I feel relived that I finished the exam.  I had one friend who withdrew, which kind of hurt my heart.   :'(

It was a stressful week.  Its been a stressful summer.  I just pray that I got 675!!!

JD06--Yes. Probably about the middle of next week I will start looking. . . .I need to update my resume--haven't done that since April!  I am sooooo broke.  Down to the last few hundred dollars of my bar exam loan. The part about that is that I could take a part time temporary job and keep looking for permanent work until the bar--one of my previous employers would be happy to have me back part time until I get bar results--but I want to keep looking too.  Plus, since I think I want to do some kind of government work, they normally require you to have your barcard already, so the part time job might not be such a bad idea.  It will all fall into place in due time.  Thanks for the encouragement.


Congratulations to smujd and all those who ran the gauntlet this week.  smujd2007, I enjoy reading your comments - always thoughtful.  I was similarly situated last summer.  Had the JD in hand, finished the bar exam, and woke up the next day back in the real world in a panic 'cause I didn't have a job.  Just bear in mind that the hard part is OVER.  Don't know where you are re the job search, but be diligent and you'll likely find a firm that'll take you on as a clerk and let you transition into an associate in November.  Took me about six weeks but I got there.  Congratulations again!  It only gets better from here.  Really. :)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Nowhere Man on July 26, 2007, 07:35:14 PM
Congrats to all of you. I was thinking about yall!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 26, 2007, 09:16:29 PM
Good look SMU and slacker.  We are done with that *&^%!  I wanna say any way it turns out for me, I'm not taking that bar exam ever again in life.  That was a STRESSful 2 months.  On day 2 I woke up with a full out headache and a stomach ache that was strangely similar to how I have felt during the few times in life that I have actually experienced a bad hangover.  AND I DIDN'T EVEN DRINK ANYTHING!  WTF??  My body was causing it's own stress and physically hurting as a result of the stress I was experiencing. 

Break down for New York and New Jersey:

Day 1:

Attempted to sleep the night before.  Not so much.  Up at 5am, hit the train by 6am, got there by 6:30.  Stood in line forever.  Bar exam started late, somewhere around 9:30 or something.

50 New York Multiple Choice questions:  who knows.  I didn't really care.  I thought about them for maybe 1/2 a second and then picked an answer and kept it moving. Got done with them in about 50 minutes and then started on the essays.

Essay 1: Commercial Paper/Crim Law (writing a bad check).   
Comment: Of the 13,000 people who took the NY bar exam this summer, probably less than 500 actually wasted their time over the past 2 months actually studying commercial paper.  And writing bad checks is a crime, but not exactly what we had in mind for a so-called criminal law/procedure essay.  Oh well.  Made the best of it and kept it moving like you said.

Essay 2: Torts (Tortious Interference with a Business Contract)/NY Practice (summary judgment)
Comment: had the New York definition of Summary Judgment memorized. Almost got excited when I saw a question asking for it.  In fact I stopped reading the essay and typed out my definition for summary judgment just to get it down on the screen and then went back to reading the essay.

Essay 3: Wills/Trusts
Comment: not much to say here.  Classic NY bar exam essay.  I think most people were prepared for this one.

Lunch break.  Studied my outlines in my car strategically parked across the street and made an attempt to eat a sandwich sorta.

Essay 4: Family Law
Comment: Yet another classic NY bar exam essay.  Most people got this one too.

Essay 5: Corporations/Professional Responsibility
Comment: They asked about the dissolution of a closely held corporation, which thank God, I had memorized the black letter law for.  I poured all of my knowledge of corporations out on that essay.  Left no stone unturned.

MPT:  We got an appellate brief to the federal court in opposition of a summary judgment motion or, in the alternative, to stay making a decision and remand to a Tribal Court located on an Indian reservation on a very very very narrow issue of law.  Completely bananas.  I'm like SMU, barely finished.  It seriously took me about 30-45 minutes just to actually READ the damn thing, and then another 15 minutes to come up with some point headings that sounded somewhat decent. Then I made my arguments to the court and tried to conclude.  I was on my 3rd argument when they called the 15 minutes remaining announcement.  Wrapped it up and called it a day.


Day 2:  MBE

Those questions were...uh...not exactly representative of what we've been practicing for MBE or BarBri.  My study partner and I completed the red book in its entirety, and I even went back over the red book and did questions over again just to make sure I had them down, and then we dipped into the blue book and I still didn't recognize the majority of the questions that they asked on the MBE we just took.  I knew some questions, I had no clue on about the same amount, and the rest I just pray about.

Day 3: New Jersey

7 essays on the MBE topics plus civ pro.  A walk in the park compared to New York.

Essay 1: Torts
Comment: a small fact pattern concerning a dram shop statute and liability of various parties in a bar room fight.

Essay 2: Crim Law
Comment: at least Jersey, unlike New York, actually asked us about real crim law and crim pro topics.  There were some warrant issues up in there, some burglary, some larceny, some entrapment.  You know, traditional crim stuff.

Essay 3: Constitutional Law
Comment: some simple due process and equal protection issues.  I had so much to write I had to stop my self and move on to the next one.

Essay 4: Property
Comment: A simple conveyance with a mortgage issue.  Not much to say.


Lunch break

Essay 5: Evidence
Comment: just remember to start any and every evidence essay with the words "in order for evidence to be admissible it must be relevant."

Essay 6: Contracts
Comment: had some classic UCC stuff between merchants going on.

Essay 7: Civ Pro
Comment: they left it vague so you could have either talked about personal jurisdiction, which I started to do, or diversity jurisdiction, which I ended up writing about.  Either way you were fine I'm sure. If I had been on computer I would have talked about both, but when you are hand writing, there's only so much you can put on there.





That's it. 

Done with two bar exams. 


I don't know what to do with myself either.  I've already had about 4 henn & cokes.  I'm sure more are coming.


Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 26, 2007, 09:28:43 PM
CONGRATS!!!

When you guys come back, you can tell me how to do this two-bars-in-one thing :).
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: «ě» on July 27, 2007, 04:15:52 AM
I agree on the ready to be over.

You guys can do it! We can all do it!

My only concern right now...sort of slight, in a major way. My laptop bluescreened earlier today. It lost the wireless for a bit yesterday.

I'm thinking of bagging the laptop and just handwriting. I'd rather type, but I don't want to be doing this in February because of Dell.

Man, that sucks, but lesson learned about buying Dell I hope. Your story is quite far from unique unfortunately.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: cui bono? on July 27, 2007, 08:23:02 AM
Dude, you're getting a dell.  :D


Man, Sands, congrats on just getting thru the exam in one piece  :)

SMU, I'm anxiously awaiting that PM  :-* :)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Denny Crane on July 27, 2007, 08:46:05 AM
Congrats Sands. 


That test sounds monstrous.  I'm very much scared, and will be living in deluded bliss for the next 3 years, completely ignoring the fact that my last law school final will not in fact be my last law-related test. 


Or, if I'm uber successful in my academics, hopefully I can enter academia immediately and completely avoid the bar exam....




Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 27, 2007, 08:49:10 AM
Thanks all for the support. 

Yeah, the bar is not something you really think about until your 3rd year, so "enjoy" law school without worrying about that, and then just remember to come dig this thread up when you need it.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 27, 2007, 08:58:46 AM
http://www.nationaljurist.com/news22338228.aspx

Who Will Pass the Bar Exam?
Tom Stabile

Last fall, students at St. Mary’s University School of Law in San Antonio got the inside scoop about passing the bar exam.

It came in startling results from the school’s study of 862 graduates from 1996 to 1999: More than 97 percent of those with at least a 3.0 grade-point average in law school had passed their first Texas bar exam. In contrast, only 25 percent of those with a GPA below 2.5 passed on the first try.

The most shocking drop occurred between graduates with virtually identical grades — 85 percent of those with GPAs of 2.7 to 2.79 passed the first time compared to 59 percent of those with GPAs between 2.6 and 2.69.

The analysis initially sought reasons for the school’s slipping pass rates, says Victoria Mather, associate dean and chair of the study committee. But now, she says, the focus is on helping students to understand the odds — and find ways to beat them.

“We’re trying to provide increased academic support for that bottom part of the class,” Mather said. “We’re also trying to inform students that they’re at risk, so that they’re not surprised.”

The St. Mary’s study isn’t the only of its kind, but it is new ground for most law students. While many are curious about exam passing data, few know how to use it to their benefit. That’s partly because most data available — pass rates by school or state — are too vague for students to personalize.

Erica Moeser, president of the National Conference of Bar Examiners (NCBE) in Madison, Wisc., says in the broadest sense, law students can take heart in reports that show most candidates eventually pass the bar exam, even though nobody really wants to take it more than once.

But she says when it comes to pass rates by state, for example, that information will only help in rare cases — and only to a point.

“In a jurisdiction [that] has a low percentage of passage, if I have some concern of my own chance for passage, it might affect my choice of where to take the exam,” she said. “But it shouldn’t decide my choice.”

What Students See
Statewide pass rates can at least underscore a student’s relative chance of success. In Tennessee, where 83 percent of the 545 first-time candidates passed the exam last July, the figures are encouraging. They’re less so in Maine, where only 61 percent of 108 first-time takers passed last July.

Even state data can push bar candidates to rise to the challenge, says Anderson Dotson III, an attorney who graduated last year from Southern University Law Center in Baton Rouge, La. He and classmates actually viewed Louisiana’s historically low pass rate for first-timers on the July test — which in recent years ranged from 62 to 74 percent — as a motivator.

“Around my group of friends, we saw the bar pass rate hadn’t been that high, and we wanted to be the class that raised it,” Dotson said.

Matthew Schrader, a third year at the University of Dayton School of Law in Dayton, Ohio, says he wasn’t thrilled to find his school’s pass rate for first-time candidates last July — which at 67 percent lagged behind the state average of 76 percent.

“I’ve looked at the pass rates for the schools, and have been a little disappointed,” he said. “It’s motivated me to study harder.”

But while such data may inspire students, it’s unlikely to influence where students will take a bar exam, says Rob Deichert, who will graduate this May from the University of Connecticut School of Law in Hartford, Conn.

“It’s determined by where you’re going to work,” Deichert said.

Likewise, Dotson says despite Louisiana’s lower pass rate, he knew of only one classmate who planned on seeking a state exam with a higher pass rate.

Jessica Rodkey, another third year at Dayton, says she plans on taking the Ohio exam regardless of pass data. At best, she says, the data puts the challenge in perspective.

“It’s really scary that you go to law school for three years and you study and take your bar review classes, and then you think that one of four of your friends won’t pass,” she said. “But you also don’t want the exam to be so easy that it’s useless. I just hope that I’m [in] the 76 percent.”

Helpful Numbers
For students, the most useful bar exam data may be what St. Mary’s produced — a snapshot of how graduates at each GPA level performed. It can tell students a lot, says Mather.

“I would never advise somebody [at the top] not to worry,” she said. “But the people in the bottom quartile need to be very concerned.”

Fred Galves, a professor at the University of the Pacific’s McGeorge School of Law in Sacramento, Calif., says a GPA-bar exam comparison there produced similar results — a 98 percent passing rate for graduates in the top quartile. The pass rate dropped off in the second and third quartiles before diving in the last.

“That’s the lesson of those statistics — if you fall behind over three years, you may be digging yourself a big hole,” he said.

Galves says students — even though they “will have to do a little digging” — could benefit from such data.

“If [students] went to a dean and said it would be helpful to see how well the quartiles do on the bar exam, it could get students to see how much it does matter that you study in law school and what grades you get,” Galves said.

Dayton’s Schrader says GPA-bar data sounds helpful.

“I would love it if our school would provide that,” he said.

But even if the data is unavailable, students can generally assume that better grades translate into higher pass rates. That was a key result of the Law School Admission Council’s National Longitudinal Bar Passage Study from 1998, which found law school grade-point average was the strongest predictor of bar examination passage.

“Those results are replicated everywhere,” Mather said.

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 27, 2007, 08:59:05 AM
Of course, students can’t exactly wait for their final law school GPA to warn them. But the St. Mary’s study produced another interesting finding: Of 232 graduates who had a first-year GPA better than 3.0, only four ended up with a final one below 2.75. Similarly, of 201 graduates with a first-year GPA below 2.5, only six ended up with one above 2.75.

“This tells us that students at higher risk of failing the bar examination on the first attempt, based on final [GPA], are largely known to the law school after first-year grades have been given,” the report found.

For students at the lower end of the GPA scale, says NCBE’s Moeser, this kind of “sobering” news should spark action. She says those students should seriously evaluate their willingness to finish their legal education. If they choose to stick it out, they should pinpoint the skills or knowledge they need to develop, and find out what the school offers in terms of academic support.

“The most effective interventions occur in law school,” Moeser said. “But the law school can’t do it all. The law student has a responsibility for shaping his or her fate. If when the sun goes down, you know your rank in law school becomes a predictor for bar exam performance, then [it’s] time to start preparing.”

There are other “snapshots” of bar exam data that can help students prepare. One example is a study by a professor at New England School of Law in Boston that found graduates who took another state bar exam along with the Massachusetts one had a much lower pass rate on both exams. Paul Teich, associate dean at New England, says the professor has not published the data, but that the school still uses it to advise students.

“We recommend that people don’t [take two exams together],” Teich said.

And the St. Mary’s study identified another factor with a statistically significant correlation to bar passage — that “the taking of more bar courses … correlates with bar examination success.” But the study found this was a less significant predictor than law school GPA.

How Not to Use the Data
Students armed with only the most general data — especially statewide pass rates for first-time test takers — shouldn’t jump to conclusions.

For starters, individual states make very different determinations on passing and failing, says Margaret Corneille, director of Minnesota’s Board of Law Examiners. For comparison, she advises that students seek the minimum score that each state requires for the Multistate Bar Exam (MBE).

What students shouldn’t do, she says, is look at annual fluctuations in a state’s pass rate and assume that the exam got easier or harder. That’s because most states “scale” their state exam scores to the MBE — a standardized test the NCBE administers each year that “guarantees” consistent scoring standards between different exam administrations.

Corneille says most states are “riding the coattails of this process so the state exam has the same consistency.” And that means different pass rates on the bar exam in two given years would owe more to differences between the people who took the test in each year and less to changes in the exams.

Similarly, students should not immediately presume that states with lower bar pass rates have harder exams. For instance, Teich says the data for first-time test takers in California include many candidates who graduated from state-accredited or unaccredited law schools operating there — who have historically passed at lower rates than graduates from American Bar Association-accredited schools.

“Because of the large number of non-ABA schools, it’s likely that there will be fewer passes,” Teich said.

Another element to consider, says Corneille, is that some states change their “cutoff” passing scores, either regularly or as part of long-term reviews. Minnesota has such a review ongoing.

“It certainly could have the effect of moving the cut score, the pass-fail line, and that would have an impact on [pass rates],” she said. “This is an area that bar examiners are looking at all the time.”

Indeed, Mather says comparing one year’s pass rate to another in Texas is made harder by constant revisions. The state’s bar board recently changed essay subjects and reduced the scoring weight of its procedure and evidence section.

Deichert says his classmates understand the data enough not to worry too much that Connecticut’s pass rate for July first-time takers has dropped steadily from 85.1 percent in 1997 to 75.7 percent last year.

“It makes you a little nervous if the pass rate is going to go down, but it’s not going to change where and when I’m going to take the exam” he said.

Using the Knowledge
The most important result from the St. Mary’s study, says Mather, will be figuring out how to help graduates pass the bar.

“We would like 100 percent of our students to pass the bar,” she said. “We take some chances on some students, but we want them to have a good chance to pass the bar.”

But Mather says the school needs more information. For instance, Texas does not provide detail on what sections of an exam a candidate has passed or failed.

“That would be very useful,” she said. “In a way, until we get that, we can’t get too far.”

In addition to lobbying the Texas bar board for that information, Mather says the school has conducted focus groups for graduates who passed or failed the bar to delve into their subjective impressions. It is also reviewing teaching techniques and learning styles to better assist students preparing for the bar.

But not all schools see bar passage data analysis as part of their missions. For example, Ruth Witherspoon, associate dean of student affairs at Florida State University College of Law in Tallahassee, says her school never discusses bar exam statistics with students.

And in the end, whether students know specific data about their chances or not, Southern’s Dotson says they are still going to take the exam on their own.

“If you want to be an attorney,” he said, “you’re going to do what you need to pass that bar.”
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on July 27, 2007, 10:52:13 AM
I had a professor tell me that in the studies they did, that people with a first-year GPA of less than 2.75 were most at risk. They said they tried to account for other variables like age, family situation, etc., and found the first-year GPA the most reliable predictor and fairly unaffected by other factors.

As for the comments about Dell, I'd had good Dell machines prior to this one. I think they went too cheap on this model (600m). Anyone I know who has one has had similar problems. I did get the 4-year law school + a little warranty, but that doesn't mean that the computer's going to screw up at a convenient time to be fixed. The last time they fixed stuff, it took about 2 weeks on the phone plus four visits from the service tech to finally bring the right parts. With only one working day between the screwups and the bar, I was quite happy to handwrite.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: jd06 on July 27, 2007, 11:44:00 AM
Day 2:  MBE

Those questions were...uh...not exactly representative of what we've been practicing for MBE or BarBri.  My study partner and I completed the red book in its entirety, and I even went back over the red book and did questions over again just to make sure I had them down, and then we dipped into the blue book and I still didn't recognize the majority of the questions that they asked on the MBE we just took.  I knew some questions, I had no clue on about the same amount, and the rest I just pray about.


Hey Burning Sands.  Congratulations on plowing through that mess.  Sounds to me like you did just fine.  Re the MBE's, I got the same feedback from people in CA who took the exam last summer (not passing, of course) and again this summer.  Told me the MBE's were tougher this time around and NOT representative of the PMBR practice exam questions.  But, the good news is, they're tougher for everybody.  You worked your butt off.  The bar card is waiting for you.   :)   

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 27, 2007, 02:28:57 PM
Thanks.  Yeah hopefully that means we get a big curve when they scale it.  Last year, you guys got robbed.  My friend was telling me the scale only added something like 7 or 8 points?  WTF??
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: jd06 on July 27, 2007, 05:35:59 PM
Thanks.  Yeah hopefully that means we get a big curve when they scale it.  Last year, you guys got robbed.  My friend was telling me the scale only added something like 7 or 8 points?  WTF??

Probably 'cause it was a less difficult iteration (Is that the word I'm lookin' for?)  I felt pretty comfortable with the majority of the questions and I didn't start preparing in May like you did.  I'm certain you'll get a nice bump 'cause it sure sounds like it was a lot tougher this year.  Man, and I thought I had it bad prepping for 14 essay subjects - CA's got nothin' on NY when it comes to that!   :) 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: LBJFan on July 27, 2007, 08:49:25 PM
Yeah, I agree the MBEs were like ---> wth?

Especially the afternoon. I felt like I would read a question that was similar to a PMBR question but at the last second they would throw in a factual twist that made me say...huh?

I also noticed that the instructions and warnings were so much more dire for the MBEs. They also made you affirm that you were only taking the test in order to be admitted to the bar, and for no other reason.

I guess they got sick of the PMBR guys taking the bar exam...

But, there were like 2,000 people at my testing site and its an odd sight to see that many people erupt in jubilation at the same time like we did at the end of day 3 lol

Anyway...I hope everyone passed! Hurry up November 16!!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: LBJFan on July 27, 2007, 08:55:29 PM
Oh and my laptop malfunctioned at the start of day 3... so sad. The .xmz file wouldnt open and then it just disappeared altogether. I was lookin at that screen like...are you serious??...really?

I handwrote 27 pages for the morning session...my pen even ran out of ink in the middle of one essay lol. I switched from blue to black ink in the middle....smh

My neighbors were shaking their heads and patting me on the back lol but I wasn't trippin. Im sure thats how you end up failing...if you freak out. You just gotta believe that you GOT THIS...no matter how many obstacles are thrown in your path!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on July 27, 2007, 08:59:28 PM
handwriting 27 pages?  i think my hand would fall off after page 10
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 28, 2007, 11:31:16 AM
Yeah, I agree the MBEs were like ---> wth?

Especially the afternoon. I felt like I would read a question that was similar to a PMBR question but at the last second they would throw in a factual twist that made me say...huh?




Yeah I know.  I was like, aha, finally a repeat question that I've seen before....wait....nope, no it's not. Damnit!  OK what are they asking again?

How did you like that Wills question?  I thought that was slick how they threw that Wills question on there.  Clearly an experimental question.  I guess the rumor is they want to add Wills to the MBE.


EDIT:  I think I can honestly say that at no point during any of the 200 questions on this MBE did we see anything that was deja vu from the PMBR books or the BarBri books.  Not even a similar fact pattern with the names changed around.  It was as if they purposely sat down and came up with 200 brand new fact patterns just for us.


Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on July 28, 2007, 12:12:32 PM
Conveyance by will is part of the MBE property outline. A friend mentioned that post test when we were going "what's up w/that?". I just looked at it's in there:
C. Conveyancing by will
   1. Ademption
   2. Exoneration
   3. Lapse
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: LBJFan on July 28, 2007, 12:47:32 PM
Conveyance by will is part of the MBE property outline. A friend mentioned that post test when we were going "what's up w/that?". I just looked at it's in there:
C. Conveyancing by will
   1. Ademption
   2. Exoneration
   3. Lapse


 :o You're a good one...it would've burned my eyeballs to look at that stuff right now

I figured it was somewhere in one of those outlines...I didnt think they would be THAT big of a bunch of jerks...but I do think Burning Sands is right...it seems like they worked long and hard on those MBEs just for us. The scaled score will reflect that but I'm sure PMBR is like "damn...they're on to us...now what do we do?" Because the word was out that PMBR had the most similar questions...now the word will get out that...not so much.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on July 28, 2007, 01:46:34 PM
I didn't think the questions were all that much like either PMBR or barbri questions.

We also had a cell phone go off in one of the bags where I took the test. Actually, it went off twice. The first time the proctors didn't figure out which bag before the ringing stopped. The second time, they did.

I'm not sure if someone just walked away from the bag or actually claimed it. It definitely added to the stress of the afternoon; wondering what the proctors would do, if anything. If the person walked away from it, I'm sure they'd still try to ID whose it was.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on July 28, 2007, 02:29:25 PM
I didn't see anything that was exactly like something else, but many of the same issues were being tested. 

But definitely not replicas of the exam. 

My brain is pretty fried.  I am having trouble keeping still . . . what am I doing right now . . . NOTHING!!!! I don't know how to act!!!

Texas has pretty good rules.  No bags are allowed in the Test room at all, and no cell phones went off--they tell us in admissions instructions just flat out not to bring them, so we didn't have those problems, thank goodness.  Then, I had my earplugs anyway, so I didn't hear much except the guy on the microphone saying "stop writing" when time was called.

Yeah, I agree the MBEs were like ---> wth?

Especially the afternoon. I felt like I would read a question that was similar to a PMBR question but at the last second they would throw in a factual twist that made me say...huh?




Yeah I know.  I was like, aha, finally a repeat question that I've seen before....wait....nope, no it's not. Damnit!  OK what are they asking again?

How did you like that Wills question?  I thought that was slick how they threw that Wills question on there.  Clearly an experimental question.  I guess the rumor is they want to add Wills to the MBE.


EDIT:  I think I can honestly say that at no point during any of the 200 questions on this MBE did we see anything that was deja vu from the PMBR books or the BarBri books.  Not even a similar fact pattern with the names changed around.  It was as if they purposely sat down and came up with 200 brand new fact patterns just for us.



Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on July 28, 2007, 02:31:37 PM
I want to say I probably wrote about 30-36 pages on the last day of the bar. We have 12 essay questions, and I averaged about 3 pages on each one. There were a couple where I wrote 4 pages--but its hard to get much more than that in 30 minutes.  Its all about conditioning.  I've been writing essays all summer to prepare for that.


I wasn't comfortable putting my professional career in the hands of my 3 year old laptop . . . I love it to death, but hey . . .

handwriting 27 pages?  i think my hand would fall off after page 10
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: LBJFan on July 28, 2007, 04:37:57 PM
12 essays?? :( good grief

Yeah that 27 pgs was only for 3 essays. But we get an hour on each so...I was scrambling just to get everything down. Im just glad my computer worked for the 2 performance tests...those are just way more writing. My hand was cramping and all...I definitely didnt practice handwriting anything unfortunately.

*sigh*

I feel you on the brain being fried thing though. I got home from the bar yesterday and I have been sitting and looking at a wall for the most part lol
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on July 28, 2007, 05:29:02 PM
We have 9 essays plus the MPT. 30 minutes per essay plus 90 for the MPT. While I thought I'd be typing the exam, I practiced handwriting the essays when I did them. I figured I didn't need the typing practice but I might end up writing -- which I did. Plus, it was easier than dragging the laptop around when I was studying.

For our rules, people could have bags in the room, but only at the front. Most things, including highlighters, couldn't be around the test takers -- the proctors had a stack of these after they were collected in the morning, but people could ask for them back at the end of the session. Cell phones, without any sort of doubt, were strictly banned. I guess someone missed where the multiple pages of directions noted that multiple times.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 29, 2007, 01:32:05 PM
New York only allowed us to bring the see-through zip-lock bag in so they could see everything you were bringing in - absolutely no cell phones allowed and I don't even know why anybody would bring them anyway.  What are you gonna do, call somebody during the bar exam and say you're taking the bar?  "Hey dog, wsup.  Yeah, I'm taking the bar."  Great, getchur ass back to it!


New Jersey gave a HUGE warning that the New Jersey Supreme Court has sanctioned their decision to BAN any applicant from being admitted, EVEN IF YOU PASS THE BAR, if your cell phone goes off one time during the bar exam. Then, after they read the statement, they gave everybody one last chance to hand over their cell phones to the proctors or else.  They were so serious about it, I had to do a triple check just to make sure I had left it in the car.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Rudy Huckleberry on July 29, 2007, 01:46:08 PM
when do y'all hear?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 29, 2007, 03:51:19 PM
New Jersey gave a HUGE warning that the New Jersey Supreme Court has sanctioned their decision to BAN any applicant from being admitted, EVEN IF YOU PASS THE BAR, if your cell phone goes off one time during the bar exam. Then, after they read the statement, they gave everybody one last chance to hand over their cell phones to the proctors or else.  They were so serious about it, I had to do a triple check just to make sure I had left it in the car.

Lol that's a great idea.  Movie theaters should do that too.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Denny Crane on July 29, 2007, 03:55:49 PM
New Jersey gave a HUGE warning that the New Jersey Supreme Court has sanctioned their decision to BAN any applicant from being admitted, EVEN IF YOU PASS THE BAR, if your cell phone goes off one time during the bar exam. Then, after they read the statement, they gave everybody one last chance to hand over their cell phones to the proctors or else.  They were so serious about it, I had to do a triple check just to make sure I had left it in the car.

Lol that's a great idea.  Movie theaters should do that too.

That's just ridiculous. 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on July 29, 2007, 04:02:38 PM
New Jersey gave a HUGE warning that the New Jersey Supreme Court has sanctioned their decision to BAN any applicant from being admitted, EVEN IF YOU PASS THE BAR, if your cell phone goes off one time during the bar exam. Then, after they read the statement, they gave everybody one last chance to hand over their cell phones to the proctors or else.  They were so serious about it, I had to do a triple check just to make sure I had left it in the car.

Lol that's a great idea.  Movie theaters should do that too.


That's just ridiculous. 

what's ridiculous?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: LadyKD on July 29, 2007, 04:07:00 PM
New Jersey gave a HUGE warning that the New Jersey Supreme Court has sanctioned their decision to BAN any applicant from being admitted, EVEN IF YOU PASS THE BAR, if your cell phone goes off one time during the bar exam. Then, after they read the statement, they gave everybody one last chance to hand over their cell phones to the proctors or else.  They were so serious about it, I had to do a triple check just to make sure I had left it in the car.

Lol that's a great idea.  Movie theaters should do that too.

That's just ridiculous. 

Well....they pretty much do the same thing when taking the LSAT. Now everything must be in a clear see thru bag...no phones...no timers.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Denny Crane on July 29, 2007, 04:08:12 PM
New Jersey gave a HUGE warning that the New Jersey Supreme Court has sanctioned their decision to BAN any applicant from being admitted, EVEN IF YOU PASS THE BAR, if your cell phone goes off one time during the bar exam. Then, after they read the statement, they gave everybody one last chance to hand over their cell phones to the proctors or else.  They were so serious about it, I had to do a triple check just to make sure I had left it in the car.

Lol that's a great idea.  Movie theaters should do that too.

what's ridiculous?

That's just ridiculous. 


Being banned for admission to the bar for having your cell phone go off during the test. 

Is the ban permanent?  It can't be, right?  You just mean that they're failed for that particular administration of the exam, right?

Even so, it's stupid and unnecessarily harsh.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on July 29, 2007, 04:09:54 PM
New Jersey gave a HUGE warning that the New Jersey Supreme Court has sanctioned their decision to BAN any applicant from being admitted, EVEN IF YOU PASS THE BAR, if your cell phone goes off one time during the bar exam. Then, after they read the statement, they gave everybody one last chance to hand over their cell phones to the proctors or else.  They were so serious about it, I had to do a triple check just to make sure I had left it in the car.

Lol that's a great idea.  Movie theaters should do that too.

what's ridiculous?

That's just ridiculous. 


Being banned for admission to the bar for having your cell phone go off during the test. 

Is the ban permanent?  It can't be, right?  You just mean that they're failed for that particular administration of the exam, right?

Even so, it's stupid and unnecessarily harsh.

it is harsh...but maybe that will keep ppl from not turning their phones off and disturbing the concentration of hundreds of others in the same room.  i cannot understand for the life of me how hard it is to either a) put ur phone on silent or b) turn it off.  it's mad annoying and it messes up concentration.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on July 29, 2007, 04:14:14 PM
New Jersey gave a HUGE warning that the New Jersey Supreme Court has sanctioned their decision to BAN any applicant from being admitted, EVEN IF YOU PASS THE BAR, if your cell phone goes off one time during the bar exam. Then, after they read the statement, they gave everybody one last chance to hand over their cell phones to the proctors or else.  They were so serious about it, I had to do a triple check just to make sure I had left it in the car.

Lol that's a great idea.  Movie theaters should do that too.

what's ridiculous?

That's just ridiculous. 


Being banned for admission to the bar for having your cell phone go off during the test. 

Is the ban permanent?  It can't be, right?  You just mean that they're failed for that particular administration of the exam, right?

Even so, it's stupid and unnecessarily harsh.

Don't bring your phone.  Problem solved.

credited
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 29, 2007, 04:15:25 PM
New Jersey gave a HUGE warning that the New Jersey Supreme Court has sanctioned their decision to BAN any applicant from being admitted, EVEN IF YOU PASS THE BAR, if your cell phone goes off one time during the bar exam. Then, after they read the statement, they gave everybody one last chance to hand over their cell phones to the proctors or else.  They were so serious about it, I had to do a triple check just to make sure I had left it in the car.

Lol that's a great idea.  Movie theaters should do that too.

what's ridiculous?

That's just ridiculous. 


Being banned for admission to the bar for having your cell phone go off during the test. 

Is the ban permanent?  It can't be, right?  You just mean that they're failed for that particular administration of the exam, right?

Even so, it's stupid and unnecessarily harsh.

it is harsh...but maybe that will keep ppl from not turning their phones off and disturbing the concentration of hundreds of others in the same room.  i cannot understand for the life of me how hard it is to either a) put ur phone on silent or b) turn it off.  it's mad annoying and it messes up concentration.

Agreed.  If you are irresponsible enough to leave on your phone during one of the most important exams of your and your fellow test taker's lives, then maybe you're not yet fit to be a lawyer. 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Denny Crane on July 29, 2007, 04:16:13 PM
Agreed.  If you can't turn off your phone, or are irresponsible enough to leave it on during one of the most important exam of your and your fellow test taker's lives, then maybe you're not yet fit to be a lawyer. 

That's quite the logical leap.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 29, 2007, 04:19:54 PM
Nope.  The entire bar admission process is about judging whether you are fit to be a lawyer.  Why do you think there is a character and fitness component?  Not everyone is admitted, and some things are indicative of larger problems.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Denny Crane on July 29, 2007, 04:21:42 PM
Nope.  The entire bar admission process is about judging whether you are fit to be a lawyer.  Why do you think there is a character and fitness component?  Not everyone is admitted, and some things are indicative of larger problems.

Fundamental Attribution Error at its worst.


Having your cell phone go off during any exam says very little about a person's character, and to automatically presume that they're unfit to practice law because of it is completely ridiculous.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 29, 2007, 04:23:32 PM
I don't make the rules or develop their rationales dood.  I just laud them.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Denny Crane on July 29, 2007, 04:24:21 PM
I don't make the rules or develop their rationales dood.  I just laud them.

You agree with their rationale and their policies, which makes your rationale equally ridiculous. 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 29, 2007, 04:27:30 PM
Whatevs.  Phone goes off = (Harold Koh voice) YOU SHOULD BE DISBARRED
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on July 29, 2007, 04:27:52 PM
but there is nothing really wrong with the policy.  just don't freaking bring your phone and you won't have a problem.  i don't see what's so hard about that.  and the policy wouldn't have gone into place if ppl used some sense and turned off their phones.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on July 29, 2007, 11:41:25 PM
For the phones, I think the reasons are three-fold. Disturbance is one reason, but the most minor reason. Cheating/leaking the test are the more major reasons. I know people who had their cell phones along for various reasons. Most took out the battery, just in case. I left mine where I was staying.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 30, 2007, 07:59:12 AM
when do y'all hear?


Not until mid-November
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on July 31, 2007, 07:45:24 AM
People should have the common decency to leave their cell phones at home. It makes no sense to bring it to the test.  What are you gonna do, open up the phone and be like: "yo, the answer to question 3 is c"
 Give me a break.  I think it does speak about your character--with an exam this important, you are so full of yourself and you think that your life is so much more important than everyone elses.  No one takes responsibility for their actions, or lack thereof.  You always want to say: "oh, it was an accident . . " yeah, maybe so, but an AVOIDABLE accident.  And going off 2 times during the exam?  That is ridiculous.

Anyhow, our pass list will be out november 2 and our swearing in ceremony is november 12.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 31, 2007, 09:03:07 AM
LOL  Tell 'em about it SMU!!!   :D


I couldn't agree more.  This is the one time where you want to take things seriously, even if you're the type of person who doesn't take things seriously on a normal basis.  Why risk it?  Just leave the thing at home or in the car. Problem solved. 

Part of being a good lawyer is knowing the rules right?  So you know the rules in this situation so abide by them and call it a day.

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 31, 2007, 09:04:05 AM
Agreed with both of you.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Denny Crane on July 31, 2007, 09:30:32 AM
I agree with you that people should turn off their cell phones, but you guys are making a hell of a lot of presumptions (extreme ones) about people's character based on something as trivial as a phone going off during an exam.  Yes, it's the bar exam, and yes, people should not have their phones on, but I'm not going to instantly demonize and debase the person just because their phone went off.


Lawyers should know the rules and should abide by them, but are any of you all of a sudden going to stop jay-walking because you're a lawyer?  I don't think so.  Stop being so full of yourselves.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 31, 2007, 09:32:08 AM
Is jay-walking inconsiderate?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Denny Crane on July 31, 2007, 09:33:01 AM
Is jay-walking inconsiderate?

No, but it's against the rules, rules that you should be fully cognizant of and which you should abide by.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 31, 2007, 10:45:34 AM
I agree with you that people should turn off their cell phones, but you guys are making a hell of a lot of presumptions (extreme ones) about people's character based on something as trivial as a phone going off during an exam.  Yes, it's the bar exam, and yes, people should not have their phones on, but I'm not going to instantly demonize and debase the person just because their phone went off.


Lawyers should know the rules and should abide by them, but are any of you all of a sudden going to stop jay-walking because you're a lawyer?  I don't think so.  Stop being so full of yourselves.


I understand where you are coming from, it seems silly, but the bolded statement is not really the issue.  The issue is rather that your cell phone has gone off after you have been directly told by the board of bar examiners to turn it off.  You have actual notice.  You can't claim mistake after that point. At that point you have risen above mere negligence to a level of recklessness and that is what reflects negatively on your fitness to practice.   

When the Board of Bar Examiners gives you a direct order to look at your cell phone and make sure that it's off, and you can't follow a simple instruction from the administration that decides whether you practice or not, that speaks volumes. 

This is professional school that we're talking about here, folks.  The legal profession is more than about practicing law, it also requires professional conduct.  You will be inundated with these little speeches when you arrive ad nauseum.  So basically, you could make a 4.0 all through law school, pass the bar with flying colors, get the big firm gig or the prestigious clerkship and all of that, but if you break the Rules of Professional Conduct you will lose your license to practice law.  It's that simple.

In New Jersey, the Supreme Court of NJ issues the disbarments in a published opinion that goes directly to the N.J. reporter, available for all to see.  It shows up on Westlaw, LexisNexis, everywhere.

Those rules of professional conduct are no joke.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: almostlegal on July 31, 2007, 10:50:45 AM
Wow.

In Massachusetts, they don't let you into the bar with a cell phone.  Bar examinees are only allowed one clear, plastic ziplock bag with only certain items allowed in it.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Rudy Huckleberry on July 31, 2007, 12:03:38 PM
The NJ rule is awesome. Did your phone go off during the LSAT, Denny? :D
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Denny Crane on July 31, 2007, 03:03:21 PM
The NJ rule is awesome. Did your phone go off during the LSAT, Denny? :D

Nope, didn't even bring it either time (took it twice).


I still think it's too harsh. 


Is it that they just not let you take the bar that day, or are you permanently barred from admission?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 31, 2007, 03:35:07 PM
All the above.


Looking at my bar app here, there's a question asking if your app to sit for a bar examination or to be admitted to practice has ever been denied or withheld...

And then there's another question at the end that asked if you've ever been disbarred, disqualified, disciplined, etc. in any other state.

So when you consider the consequences, it's just not worth it. 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Denny Crane on July 31, 2007, 03:39:38 PM
All the above.


Looking at my bar app here, there's a question asking if your app to sit for a bar examination or to be admitted to practice has ever been denied or withheld...

And then there's another question at the end that asked if you've ever been disbarred, disqualified, disciplined, etc. in any other state.

So when you consider the consequences, it's just not worth it. 

That's completely ridiculous.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on July 31, 2007, 03:43:35 PM
All the above.


Looking at my bar app here, there's a question asking if your app to sit for a bar examination or to be admitted to practice has ever been denied or withheld...

And then there's another question at the end that asked if you've ever been disbarred, disqualified, disciplined, etc. in any other state.

So when you consider the consequences, it's just not worth it. 

That's completely ridiculous.

it *may* be extreme but so the @#!* what? don't bring your phone, then you won't have a prob. end of story and very simple.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Denny Crane on July 31, 2007, 03:46:24 PM
All the above.


Looking at my bar app here, there's a question asking if your app to sit for a bar examination or to be admitted to practice has ever been denied or withheld...

And then there's another question at the end that asked if you've ever been disbarred, disqualified, disciplined, etc. in any other state.

So when you consider the consequences, it's just not worth it. 

That's completely ridiculous.

it *may* be extreme but so the @#!* what? don't bring your phone, then you won't have a prob. end of story and very simple.

I'm not worried about myself, but think about it.  There are people out there who have committed serious crimes who are nevertheless considered fit to sit for the bar and eventually practice law. 

Is it right to penalize someone more harshly for having their phone go off?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on July 31, 2007, 04:42:55 PM
All the above.


Looking at my bar app here, there's a question asking if your app to sit for a bar examination or to be admitted to practice has ever been denied or withheld...

And then there's another question at the end that asked if you've ever been disbarred, disqualified, disciplined, etc. in any other state.

So when you consider the consequences, it's just not worth it. 

That's completely ridiculous.

it *may* be extreme but so the @#!* what? don't bring your phone, then you won't have a prob. end of story and very simple.

I'm not worried about myself, but think about it.  There are people out there who have committed serious crimes who are nevertheless considered fit to sit for the bar and eventually practice law. 

Is it right to penalize someone more harshly for having their phone go off?

oh i know you're not worried about yourself...but it's a matter of screwing up the biggest day of someone's life. so i'm ok with it. i can follow rules...so should other ppl
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Denny Crane on July 31, 2007, 04:59:30 PM
oh i know you're not worried about yourself...but it's a matter of screwing up the biggest day of someone's life. so i'm ok with it. i can follow rules...so should other ppl

I think most people can follow the rules, but the question is whether the punishment fits the infraction.

You really think someone should be permanently banned for having their cell go off during the exam? 

If you can't do well on the test because someone's phone went off, odds are you weren't going to do well anyway.  Worst case scenario, you take the freakin test again a few months later. 

A permanent ban is draconian.  Everyone who supports it is just ridiculous, and I fear what kind of sentences you'll impose if you're ever a judge.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on July 31, 2007, 05:20:54 PM
oh i know you're not worried about yourself...but it's a matter of screwing up the biggest day of someone's life. so i'm ok with it. i can follow rules...so should other ppl

I think most people can follow the rules, but the question is whether the punishment fits the infraction.

You really think someone should be permanently banned for having their cell go off during the exam? 

If you can't do well on the test because someone's phone went off, odds are you weren't going to do well anyway. Worst case scenario, you take the freakin test again a few months later. 

A permanent ban is draconian.  Everyone who supports it is just ridiculous, and I fear what kind of sentences you'll impose if you're ever a judge.

i would never want to take a test again...with your whole firm and coworkers knowing that you failed?   that's so demoralizing.

as i said, the punishment is harsh...but i really don't care.  don't do the *crime* if you can't handle the consequences
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: jd06 on July 31, 2007, 05:54:23 PM
As for "professional rules of conduct,"  prior to graduation I had illusions that the hallowed halls of the courthouse were filled with dignified officers of the court, conducting themselves with civility towards each other, treating both the court and their clients with the utmost respect, and strictly adhering to the code of conduct.  The reality is, at least in CA where I practice, it's pretty much a freakin' zoo out there for the 211,000+ attorneys.  I can tell you that a rule like the cell phone ban, love it or hate it, is pretty much the last you'll see of such zero tolerance.... 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 31, 2007, 06:07:23 PM
oh i know you're not worried about yourself...but it's a matter of screwing up the biggest day of someone's life. so i'm ok with it. i can follow rules...so should other ppl

I think most people can follow the rules, but the question is whether the punishment fits the infraction.

You really think someone should be permanently banned for having their cell go off during the exam? 

If you can't do well on the test because someone's phone went off, odds are you weren't going to do well anyway.  Worst case scenario, you take the freakin test again a few months later. 

A permanent ban is draconian.  Everyone who supports it is just ridiculous, and I fear what kind of sentences you'll impose if you're ever a judge.


Trust me when I say (and I think I speak for SMU, slacker and the rest of us) you absolutely do NOT want to take this test again in a few months. 



If I can help it, never again in life.


Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Denny Crane on July 31, 2007, 06:31:11 PM
Trust me when I say (and I think I speak for SMU, slacker and the rest of us) you absolutely do NOT want to take this test again in a few months. 



If I can help it, never again in life.


I understand that, and believe me, I'm already very much dreading taking that test, however is it really worth it to cost someone their entire legal career before it even starts, just because you were inconvenienced during the test?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 31, 2007, 07:38:21 PM
Yup.  And you continually fail to give a reason as to why you just can't leave the phone at home.  If you're too dumb to do that, then you shouldn't be entrusted with people's lives.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Denny Crane on July 31, 2007, 07:40:04 PM
Yup.  And you continually fail to give a reason as to why you just can't leave the phone at home.  If you're too dumb to do that, then you shouldn't be entrusted with people's lives.

Again, fundamental attribution error.  You're assuming they're dumb or untrustworthy or incompetent simply by not turning off their phone.

You guys are acting incredibly high and mighty, as if you're completely immune to messing up once and a while.  I know you actually believe this about yourself, Alci, but most other people are a bit more self-aware (or at least should be).
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 31, 2007, 08:01:17 PM
No, it's a simple as leaving your phone at home when told to do so in order not to disturb hundreds of other people taking one of the most important tests of their lives.  That's more than "messing up."  That's just stupid and inconsiderate.  No sympathy.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Denny Crane on July 31, 2007, 08:07:34 PM
Alright, I'm going to drop this since we're all standing our ground and clearly not budging.


But if you get banned from being admitted to the bar for something trivial, don't complain. 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 31, 2007, 08:08:39 PM
If I was told prior to admission, then it'll be my fault.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on July 31, 2007, 08:10:17 PM
Yup.  And you continually fail to give a reason as to why you just can't leave the phone at home.  If you're too dumb to do that, then you shouldn't be entrusted with people's lives.

Again, fundamental attribution error.  You're assuming they're dumb or untrustworthy or incompetent simply by not turning off their phone.

You guys are acting incredibly high and mighty, as if you're completely immune to messing up once and a while.  I know you actually believe this about yourself, Alci, but most other people are a bit more self-aware (or at least should be).

sure ppl mess up--but come on.  it's the same ppl over and over who forget to turn off their phones in class, at the movies, during test, always messing up the flow.  so screw 'em

If I was told prior to admission, then it'll be my fault.

exactly.  there's no reason to be told right before a test and u still don't listen.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Denny Crane on July 31, 2007, 08:17:38 PM

sure ppl mess up--but come on.  it's the same ppl over and over who forget to turn off their phones in class, at the movies, during test, always messing up the flow.  so screw 'em


How do you know this?  You're just assuming things about people (we're not even talking about a real person, we're talking about a hypo, and already you're presuming the worst about them).

One mistake and they're gone?  Absurd.

I understand your point that people should follow the rules, especially when they're told the rules right then and there and in explicit terms.  But should failure to follow that one rule result in a permanent ban?  A PERMANENT BAN?

I don't see how you guys can agree to that in good faith.  But like I said, it seems as if none of us are budging on this issue, so might as well drop it.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on July 31, 2007, 08:23:35 PM

sure ppl mess up--but come on.  it's the same ppl over and over who forget to turn off their phones in class, at the movies, during test, always messing up the flow.  so screw 'em


How do you know this?  You're just assuming things about people (we're not even talking about a real person, we're talking about a hypo, and already you're presuming the worst about them).

One mistake and they're gone?  Absurd.

I understand your point that people should follow the rules, especially when they're told the rules right then and there and in explicit terms.  But should failure to follow that one rule result in a permanent ban?  A PERMANENT BAN?

I don't see how you guys can agree to that in good faith.  But like I said, it seems as if none of us are budging on this issue, so might as well drop it.

honestly...i really don't care...bc i'm not dumb enough to do something that i know could lead to a permanent band.  but ymmv
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Denny Crane on July 31, 2007, 08:27:19 PM
honestly...i really don't care...bc i'm not dumb enough to do something that i know could lead to a permanent band.  but ymmv

That's where I think you're mistaken.  You automatically believe that someone whose phone rings during the test is dumb. 

I know that it seems preoposterous that there can be extenuating circumstances, but I believe it's plausible for there to be an excusable reason, or at the very least a FORGIVABLE reason for someone's phone to ring during the test.

I'll even go so far as to understand that the person is asked to leave or is prevented from finishing the exam, but a LIFETIME BAN? 

Come on, people.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on July 31, 2007, 08:37:17 PM
honestly...i really don't care...bc i'm not dumb enough to do something that i know could lead to a permanent band.  but ymmv

That's where I think you're mistaken.  You automatically believe that someone whose phone rings during the test is dumb. 

I know that it seems preoposterous that there can be extenuating circumstances, but I believe it's plausible for there to be an excusable reason, or at the very least a FORGIVABLE reason for someone's phone to ring during the test.

I'll even go so far as to understand that the person is asked to leave or is prevented from finishing the exam, but a LIFETIME BAN? 

Come on, people.

it may be mean, but yea i'm going to think they are dumb whether it's a false assumption or not. it's a part of the rules and the materials that you need to read over before you take the bar.  they tell you right before you start to leave them/turn them off and what not. by that time, that person has taken so many tests and been told to turn their phone off/leave them at home that it should be a given.

a lifetime ban is extreme...but thems the breaks
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on July 31, 2007, 10:35:33 PM
SMH . . .

Denny Crane has some issues. If he can't see the magnitude of someone's cell phone going off during THE BAR EXAM, obviously he hasn't taken it.  Obviously he knows nothing about the stress and the hard work that goes into it all.

That's all I have to say about this nonsense. 

And, as a matter of fact, I don't jaywalk.  There is nothing wrong with following reasonable rules.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Denny Crane on July 31, 2007, 10:55:47 PM
SMH . . .

Denny Crane has some issues. If he can't see the magnitude of someone's cell phone going off during THE BAR EXAM, obviously he hasn't taken it.  Obviously he knows nothing about the stress and the hard work that goes into it all.

That's all I have to say about this nonsense. 

And, as a matter of fact, I don't jaywalk.  There is nothing wrong with following reasonable rules.

What issues are you talking about?

Oh, you mean compassion?  Understanding?  Fairness?

Don't be such a condescending witch.  It behooves you to learn tact.

You'll learn that when you actually step out into the real world.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 01, 2007, 12:19:17 AM
SMH . . .

Denny Crane has some issues. If he can't see the magnitude of someone's cell phone going off during THE BAR EXAM, obviously he hasn't taken it.  Obviously he knows nothing about the stress and the hard work that goes into it all.

That's all I have to say about this nonsense. 

And, as a matter of fact, I don't jaywalk.  There is nothing wrong with following reasonable rules.

What issues are you talking about?

Oh, you mean compassion?  Understanding?  Fairness?

Don't be such a condescending witch.  It behooves you to learn tact.

You'll learn that when you actually step out into the real world.

Hey hey hey, none of that name calling is necessary.  Nobody's coming at your neck like that.


Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Denny Crane on August 01, 2007, 09:10:26 AM

Hey hey hey, none of that name calling is necessary.  Nobody's coming at your neck like that.


No one is going to condescend at me for no reason and get away with it.  No one else was indecent enough to speak to me like she did.  I wasn't going to let her get away with it. 

Hopefully now we can all drop the issue though since, as I've been saying, it doesn't seem like any of us is going to relent, and there isn't much more we can say on the issue that will convince others. 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 01, 2007, 09:59:51 AM
I hear you, but I think maybe you're taking the argument too personally perhaps.  Understand, SMU is good peoples and also somebody who has just taken a 3-day bar exam, which represents the end of the road for what you are aspiring to begin.  I think that entitles her to some respect don't you?

As per the original argument, you are probably correct that we have reached a standstill.  The only question I have for you is, if you had to administer an exam to a couple thousand people, and somebody's cell phone goes off, what would you propose the remedy to be? (if anything)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Denny Crane on August 01, 2007, 10:05:59 AM
I hear you, but I think maybe you're taking the argument too personally perhaps.  Understand, SMU is good peoples and also somebody who has just taken a 3-day bar exam, which represents the end of the road for what you are aspiring to begin.  I think that entitles her to some respect don't you?

As per the original argument, you are probably correct that we have reached a standstill.  The only question I have for you is, if you had to administer an exam to a couple thousand people, and somebody's cell phone goes off, what would you propose the remedy to be? (if anything)

This isn't the first time SMU has treated me with disrespect, and I wasn't about to take it again.  No one else acted condescendingly to me throughout this whole debate, even though pretty much everyone else disagreed with me.  Everyone kept it cordial, but everytime SMU responds to anything I say, she acts as if she's the only one who knows anything about life just because she's a few years older and has gone through law school already (even if that's completely irrelevant to the point at hand).  She needed to be called out.

To answer your question, if a cell phone goes off during the test, I might be willing to go as far as removing that person from the exam and preventing them from completing it, but what bothers me is that such a removal can result in a permanent ban from the bar.  If we let convicted felons sit for the bar, and consider them fit to practice law, I don't see how anyone here can say that someone who fails to turn off their phone is unfit for the same responsibility. 

Just because I haven't yet sat for the bar doesn't mean I don't understand the pressure you guys are under while it's being administered, but just because you might be inconvenienced during the exam doesn't mean someone's career should be stripped from them. 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on August 01, 2007, 11:12:58 AM
No, your arrogance needs to be put in check.  And my experiences are relevant. They are relevant here because I have actually taken a bar exam, unlike yourself.  I come to the board to offer insight to others who have not gone down the road in hopes of making it just a little bit easier for them when they do. Yes, even yourself included, despite the way you have just disrespected me. 

You don't have a clue about the world you are stepping into. You think you do, but until you have walked the road you really don't.  And not once have I called you any names.  Do I ask you where you get off with your arrogance and opinions, and where your experiences come from?  Yes. This is a discussion board. I want to know, and I want others to know, the basis for your opinions--which, most of the time, they are just that . . . opinions, with not much to back them up. Your comments, most times, are far from cordial.  YOU are the one that needs to be called out. I am just the one who has the guts to say anything to you. 

And as for me and being a "consescending witch," that is not what that is.  I call things like I see them. I always have, and I always will.  More people probably should.  They would be a lot less uptight and stressed.  And contrary to what you might think, I am living in the real world.  I worked my way through law school--I didn't just have my head in books the whole time. I have a family.  I know how to deal with people. My "tell it like it is" attitude has gotten me this far.  THAT'S THE REAL WORLD. And what's really disrespectful here is your comments, not mine.

Note that I don't respond to anyone else's comments the way I respond to your comments.  Maybe the problem is with you, not me. You make comments on the board as if you have no regard for the seriousness of things. Like you have no morals about you. You are not walking into a profession that's for play. Yes, honesty, integrity, character, just plain following directions . . . if you can't follow simple directions, I wouldn't want you to be my garbage man, let alone my lawyer!!!!   

I've  been on this board going on about 4 years, and you are the first one to call me such a name. Who is really the problem here?

Bottom line is you are immature.  So you are going to call someone who is partner names when they say something you don't agree with at a firm? Because that is the reality you are facing. Why would you call someone a name?  Because you have nothing meaningful to add to the discussion.  YOU need to get a grip on the real world.  Really. Name calling doesn't work.  Learn some other strategy.


I hear you, but I think maybe you're taking the argument too personally perhaps.  Understand, SMU is good peoples and also somebody who has just taken a 3-day bar exam, which represents the end of the road for what you are aspiring to begin.  I think that entitles her to some respect don't you?

As per the original argument, you are probably correct that we have reached a standstill.  The only question I have for you is, if you had to administer an exam to a couple thousand people, and somebody's cell phone goes off, what would you propose the remedy to be? (if anything)

This isn't the first time SMU has treated me with disrespect, and I wasn't about to take it again.  No one else acted condescendingly to me throughout this whole debate, even though pretty much everyone else disagreed with me.  Everyone kept it cordial, but everytime SMU responds to anything I say, she acts as if she's the only one who knows anything about life just because she's a few years older and has gone through law school already (even if that's completely irrelevant to the point at hand).  She needed to be called out.

To answer your question, if a cell phone goes off during the test, I might be willing to go as far as removing that person from the exam and preventing them from completing it, but what bothers me is that such a removal can result in a permanent ban from the bar.  If we let convicted felons sit for the bar, and consider them fit to practice law, I don't see how anyone here can say that someone who fails to turn off their phone is unfit for the same responsibility. 

Just because I haven't yet sat for the bar doesn't mean I don't understand the pressure you guys are under while it's being administered, but just because you might be inconvenienced during the exam doesn't mean someone's career should be stripped from them. 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Denny Crane on August 01, 2007, 11:19:45 AM
I'm the one who is fully acknowledging the seriousness of this.  Why is my opinion discredited just because I haven't taken the bar?  All of a sudden I'm naive just because I think someone shouldn't be BANNED FROM THE BAR for having their cell phone go off. 


I'm not trying to make enemies here, and I stand by my earlier statement that you're condescending and that you could learn some tact.  However, I will apologize for calling you names.  I'm sorry. 

But neither you nor anyone else on this board will likely convince me that one absent-minded mess up is worth someone's career in law. 


And no one has yet addressed my contention that we allow convicted felons to join the bar, but that in this case people whose phone goes off during the bar exam are banned from joining.  How can anyone reconcile that?  How can anyone say that breaking a LAW is less serious and more forgivable than breaking a rule during the exam that has nothing to do with fitness for the bar?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on August 01, 2007, 12:37:55 PM
I think they should ban the felons too.  But, as with any rule making, you take things one issue at a time.  This was obviously a salient one that the examiners acted upon.  Maybe if people start protesting about the felons, they'll change that rule too.  The comparison you're making between the two is tenuous at best.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: 2Lacoste on August 01, 2007, 12:40:28 PM
I think they should ban the felons too.  But, as with any rule making, you take things one issue at a time.  This was obviously a salient one that the examiners acted upon.  Maybe if people start protesting about the felons, they'll change that rule too.  The comparison you're making between the two is tenuous at best.


I dunno.  I'm with Denny on this one.  Banning folks from the profession beacuse they had their cell phone during the barzam is a bit much.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Denny Crane on August 01, 2007, 12:42:13 PM
I think they should ban the felons too.  But, as with any rule making, you take things one issue at a time.  This was obviously a salient one that the examiners acted upon.  Maybe if people start protesting about the felons, they'll change that rule too.  The comparison you're making between the two is tenuous at best.

I don't think it's tenuous.  The issue is character and fitness to sit for the bar. 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: almostlegal on August 01, 2007, 03:32:30 PM
But neither you nor anyone else on this board will likely convince me that one absent-minded mess up is worth someone's career in law. 

I agree.  If you are really concerned about cell phones going off, then you will not allow cell phones into the bar exam (like in Massachusetts).
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: almostlegal on August 01, 2007, 03:38:26 PM
I hear you, but I think maybe you're taking the argument too personally perhaps.  Understand, SMU is good peoples and also somebody who has just taken a 3-day bar exam, which represents the end of the road for what you are aspiring to begin.  I think that entitles her to some respect don't you?

I think SMU took it too far.  I know plenty of people who took the bar exam last week, and I don't think any of them would use their personal experience as an excuse for attacking a person, rather than that person's logic in an argument.

Of course, responding by name calling just brought Denny down to SMU's level.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Denny Crane on August 01, 2007, 03:44:02 PM
I hear you, but I think maybe you're taking the argument too personally perhaps.  Understand, SMU is good peoples and also somebody who has just taken a 3-day bar exam, which represents the end of the road for what you are aspiring to begin.  I think that entitles her to some respect don't you?

I think SMU took it too far.  I know plenty of people who took the bar exam last week, and I don't think any of them would use their personal experience as an excuse for attacking a person, rather than that person's logic in an argument.

Of course, responding by name calling just brought Denny down to SMU's level.

Sometimes you have to fight dirty, but I did apologize for it.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: almostlegal on August 01, 2007, 03:50:07 PM
I hear you, but I think maybe you're taking the argument too personally perhaps.  Understand, SMU is good peoples and also somebody who has just taken a 3-day bar exam, which represents the end of the road for what you are aspiring to begin.  I think that entitles her to some respect don't you?

I think SMU took it too far.  I know plenty of people who took the bar exam last week, and I don't think any of them would use their personal experience as an excuse for attacking a person, rather than that person's logic in an argument.

Of course, responding by name calling just brought Denny down to SMU's level.

Sometimes you have to fight dirty, but I did apologize for it.

Yes, you did apologize.  That is an important distinction.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 01, 2007, 04:01:27 PM
A few points. 

#1. Convicted felons are far from an automatic shoe-in for any bar exam. There's a question, actually, there are question(s) about that as well on the bar app.  Each jurisdiction can use their discretion to ban or allow convicted felons from sitting for the bar just like somebody who has been careless enough to bring a cell phone into the bar exam
 
#2. No disrespect to the 0L's, but SMU is actually correct in that there is no way on God's green earth that you can have ANY F*CKING IDEA what it is like to sit for the bar exam unless you have sat for the bar exam.  So please don't say you understand because you cannot understand.  This is something you have to experience, trust me on this one.  I don't throw this stuff around lightly.  Neither myself, my classmates, SMU, slacker, anybody had any idea of the pressure we would be under when we were 2L's last year.  We knew it was coming, we knew it would suck, we knew some people pass and some people fail, but until you're in that seat....no idea.  I've pledged a collegiate fraternity, pledged into a Masonic Lodge, gone through 1L, and I would still put the bar exam up to the Pepsi challenge to all of those experiences.  These 30-some odd pages on this thread can give you some insight into the process, sure, but understanding will only come from experience.

#3. Going back to point #1. perhaps some clarity is in order - it is not an automatic permanent ban to sit for any bar exam in the future if your cell phone goes off during the bar.  I can tell you that you will be automatically dismissed from the bar exam in NY and NJ.  It is something that goes on your character & fitness report that will follow you around to any future bar exam you attempt to take and, yes, could potentially ban you from taking a future depending upon the discretion of that respective board of bar examiners.  Same as convicted felons.  You might get in, you might not.  Case by case basis.

#4. Moral of the story, leave your phones at home. :P
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Denny Crane on August 01, 2007, 04:17:02 PM
I just want to make clear that I never said I understand HOW stressful the bar exam is, but rather that I understand THAT taking the bar exam is stressful.


A lot of things are stressful.  Will a ringing phone really contribute enough to that stress level for you to feel 100% comfortable with the thought of that inconvenience causing someone their legal career?  Like I said, I understand if that person is removed from testing for that administration of the bar, but to be removed permanently from taking the bar?  That's not right.

Also, the fact that any felons are allowed to sit for the bar, even if it is case-by-case, should be completely unacceptable if we are to ostensibly ban annoying or inconsiderate people from sitting for the bar.  I understand it's case by case, but how can any review board maintain a ban against someone for something as trivial as a phone going off?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on August 01, 2007, 05:57:50 PM
Almost legal--I didn't use my personal experience to attack anyone. And I'm not backing off of my comments or apologizing to anyone--because like I said, if you can't see the magnitude of the exam, you do have some issues that need to be addressed before you take it yourself. Its not a personal attack--though I used Denny's name because he made the comment--that was for anyone who didn't see the magnitude of it all. This is no game.    I used my personal experience to validate my comments.  Its just like I always say--do you take to heart more someone's comments that has actually been through the experience or someone who has not? And yes, experience is very relevant, whether anyone wants to admit it or not. Do you want to talk to someone who has been to law school or someone who is going to seminary (or some other graduate program?) on this board?  Be real.

As for Denny Crane, no your comments aren't dismissed because you haven't sat for the bar.  All I'm saying is don't talk like you've been there, done that, like you really know what its like.  Because like Sands said, you know its coming, you know its not going to be fun but until you have literally no life from May until August and sit through 15 hours of testing in 3 days will you know what its like. And yes, like with anything in life--it has nothing to do with how old I am--that's even if I'm older than you--its about experience.

And Denny, you never addressed my comment about simply following directions.  As for criminals, some of them commit juvenile offenses, etc. . . that's why there's case by case basis review. Committing crimes can have certain circumstances that might be explained away--and, like sands said, this doesn't happen very often.   Turning off a cell phone is  a simple command that a 5 year old should be able to follow.

I hear you, but I think maybe you're taking the argument too personally perhaps.  Understand, SMU is good peoples and also somebody who has just taken a 3-day bar exam, which represents the end of the road for what you are aspiring to begin.  I think that entitles her to some respect don't you?

I think SMU took it too far.  I know plenty of people who took the bar exam last week, and I don't think any of them would use their personal experience as an excuse for attacking a person, rather than that person's logic in an argument.

Of course, responding by name calling just brought Denny down to SMU's level.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Denny Crane on August 01, 2007, 06:07:10 PM
SMU, why do you assume that someone who thinks a ban from bar admission for a ringing cell phone doesn't understand the magnitude of the exam itself?  I fully understand the magnitude of it, which is precisely why I don't think someone should be banned from taking it simply because their phone went off.

Yes, people should follow simply instructions (and I fully acknowledge that "turn off your cell phone" is about as simple as it gets, and that anyone who has gone through law school should at least be able to follow that), but it also doesn't get simpler than "do not kill someone", yet people commit that act. 

And I'm not arguing against the removal of the offending person from the test-area, and preventing them from taking the exam that day.  I am against people being banned permanently for it.  Though you may not believe it, I do understand how important the bar exam is (anyone aspiring to be a practicing lawyer pretty much understands it).  You don't need to have taken it in order to understand that.

Defending compassion, understanding, and forgiveness does not mean someone has "issues."  Anyone who can't see that is the person with the real issues.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on August 01, 2007, 09:31:35 PM
ANYHOW . . . .

Moving on to a new topic, as we are beating a dead horse here.

How is everyone's job situation looking who has already taken the bar?  Lets get back to what this board is ultimately about. Any special concerns or considerations?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 02, 2007, 09:16:56 AM
Speaking of which...for the first time last night when I was asked what do I do I paused for a second and said "uhh....I uhh...work for a law firm here in Manhattan?"  [said as if I was asking them if this were true]  I wanted to say I was law student but I'm not anymore I guess.  We're in limbo.

Then they were like "oh you work for a law firm...are you are paralegal or.....what?"  Which, even though I found a little offensive, I brushed it off and again answered their question with my own quasi-question - I was like "I'm a.....lawyer?   Yeah, I'm a lawyer.  Holy sh!t I am a lawyer."


Felt very weird to say that.


Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: 2Lacoste on August 02, 2007, 09:20:04 AM
Speaking of which...for the first time last night when I was asked what do I do I paused for a second and said "uhh....I uhh...work for a law firm here in Manhattan?"  [said as if I was asking them if this were true]  I wanted to say I was law student but I'm not anymore I guess.  We're in limbo.

Then they were like "oh you work for a law firm...are you are paralegal or.....what?"  Which, even though I found a little offensive, I brushed it off and again answered their question with my own quasi-question - I was like "I'm a.....lawyer?   Yeah, I'm a lawyer.  Holy sh!t I am a lawyer."


Felt very weird to say that.






Haha, can't wait to get to that point.  "I'm a lawyer?  Holy *&^%, I AM a lawyer!"  Sweet. 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: jd06 on August 02, 2007, 09:26:53 AM
Speaking of which...for the first time last night when I was asked what do I do I paused for a second and said "uhh....I uhh...work for a law firm here in Manhattan?"  [said as if I was asking them if this were true]  I wanted to say I was law student but I'm not anymore I guess.  We're in limbo.

Then they were like "oh you work for a law firm...are you are paralegal or.....what?"  Which, even though I found a little offensive, I brushed it off and again answered their question with my own quasi-question - I was like "I'm a.....lawyer?   Yeah, I'm a lawyer.  Holy sh!t I am a lawyer."


Felt very weird to say that.

The real scary part, Sands, is when you start practicing and a client asks you, "What should I do?" and he's hanging on your every word 'cause he assumes, because you're an "attorney," that you know everything.  You're thinking to yourself, "Holy shi*t, they don't teach this stuff is law school.  I better come up with somethin' good here!"  But you get the hang of it after about six months or so... :)















Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: jd06 on August 02, 2007, 09:33:28 AM
I also get these phone calls from my parents 'cause people ask them if they'll please ask me a question.  It's kinda funny....
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 02, 2007, 09:49:17 AM
Speaking of which...for the first time last night when I was asked what do I do I paused for a second and said "uhh....I uhh...work for a law firm here in Manhattan?"  [said as if I was asking them if this were true]  I wanted to say I was law student but I'm not anymore I guess.  We're in limbo.

Then they were like "oh you work for a law firm...are you are paralegal or.....what?"  Which, even though I found a little offensive, I brushed it off and again answered their question with my own quasi-question - I was like "I'm a.....lawyer?   Yeah, I'm a lawyer.  Holy sh!t I am a lawyer."


Felt very weird to say that.




The real scary part, Sands, is when you start practicing and a client asks you, "What should I do?" and he's hanging on your every word 'cause he assumes, because you're an "attorney," that you know everything.  You're thinking to yourself, "Holy shi*t, they don't teach this stuff is law school.  I better come up with somethin' good here!"  But you get the hang of it after about six months or so... :)


















Yeah can't wait to see that play out, although I'm still uncertain as to the client interaction between associates and clients.  Guess we'll find out in a few months. 

I'm definitely feeling you on the family asking questions for others.  That has already happened and you're absolutely right, folks expect you to know EVERYTHING once you get outa here.  Little do they know it doesn't quite work like that.  Law school teaches you 2 things: the basics of the law, which covers about 10% of what you might see in the real world, and then secondly, you are taught how to look up and make sense of everything else which covers the other 90%.


Although that damn bar exam attempts to cover well over 10% of the law that exists out there, which is what makes it so crazy.  Law school simply just does not prepare you for the bar exam.  I mean it does somewhat, but not really.


Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on August 02, 2007, 10:09:58 AM
No, law school does not prepare you for the bar exam.

We are kind of in limbo right now.  I don't know what to call myself right now . . . I'm not a law student, and I'm not a lawyer quite yet . . .

As for me and my job situation, I am in that awkward limbo position--trying to decide if I should take a couple part time/temporary jobs while waiting for the bar results, since most of the work I want to do is with the government (which requires a barcard upon entry), or trying to find a permanent position where they will let me work until I get my barcard.  Currently exploring both options.  And though I'm pondering the options, in the end I know the decision isn't even really mine. ;)

Yes, as for the family members asking questions issue--I have family members in other states asking me questions.  I'm like . . . I don't know the answer to this question in Texas . . . you expect me to know the answer somewhere else?

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 05, 2007, 11:35:28 AM
I feel like I'm suffering from withdrawal right now.  I need something to read quick!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on August 05, 2007, 01:16:42 PM
I couldn't read for the first few days after. I'd read a little, and then my brain would start rebelling. I think I'm mostly over that, though, as I've now read two books, and ready for some more.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 05, 2007, 03:03:58 PM
Yeah, the material is still floating around in there, and I'll notice it will be triggered whenever I watch a movie or Law & Order or something - like a vietnam flashback.

Some of those funky essays will replay over and over in my head sometimes and I'm like "D'oh! I should have said XYZ"

 :P
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Denny Crane on August 05, 2007, 03:09:15 PM
Yeah, the material is still floating around in there, and I'll notice it will be triggered whenever I watch a movie or Law & Order or something - like a vietnam flashback.

Some of those funky essays will replay over and over in my head sometimes and I'm like "D'oh! I should have said XYZ"

 :P

Get away from the law for a bit. 

Cook an elaborate meal.  For me. 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Rudy Huckleberry on August 05, 2007, 03:40:37 PM
Oh this is hella old, but I agree with Denny that it's wayyy too extreme to permanently bar someone from admission to the bar because her phone went off. I like the rule that you automatically fail that sitting, but for life? That's insane.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on August 05, 2007, 06:42:07 PM
Yeah, the material is still floating around in there, and I'll notice it will be triggered whenever I watch a movie or Law & Order or something - like a vietnam flashback.

Some of those funky essays will replay over and over in my head sometimes and I'm like "D'oh! I should have said XYZ"

 :P
I'm trying to not think about any of the questions. It just reminds me of what I didn't write.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on August 05, 2007, 09:35:13 PM
Right.  This reminds me of the people huddled in the parking lot after the exam was over comparing notes.  They let us take the essay questions with us on day 3--so people were literally like--so what did you put for the first part of the third question?

Yeah, the material is still floating around in there, and I'll notice it will be triggered whenever I watch a movie or Law & Order or something - like a vietnam flashback.

Some of those funky essays will replay over and over in my head sometimes and I'm like "D'oh! I should have said XYZ"

 :P
I'm trying to not think about any of the questions. It just reminds me of what I didn't write.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 06, 2007, 09:51:58 AM
I hate those people. 

Two guys literally go into it after my Civ Pro exam during 1L and were seriously getting mad at each other over some problem that they disagreed on.  Let it go, man. Let it go.


It's out there. What's done is done. Just pray (or think really really hard about passing if you don't believe in God).
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on August 06, 2007, 09:54:49 AM
Exactly!  What's the point?  You will just make yourself crazier than you already are!

I hate those people. 

Two guys literally go into it after my Civ Pro exam during 1L and were seriously getting mad at each other over some problem that they disagreed on.  Let it go, man. Let it go.


It's out there. What's done is done. Just pray (or think really really hard about passing if you don't believe in God).
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: cui bono? on August 06, 2007, 03:27:03 PM
I hate those people. 

Two guys literally go into it after my Civ Pro exam during 1L and were seriously getting mad at each other over some problem that they disagreed on.  Let it go, man. Let it go.


 wise words

(or think really really hard about passing if you don't believe in God).

oh boy, not that discussion again  :D



Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: shaz on August 08, 2007, 04:34:06 PM
Speaking of which...for the first time last night when I was asked what do I do I paused for a second and said "uhh....I uhh...work for a law firm here in Manhattan?"  [said as if I was asking them if this were true]  I wanted to say I was law student but I'm not anymore I guess.  We're in limbo.

Then they were like "oh you work for a law firm...are you are paralegal or.....what?"  Which, even though I found a little offensive, I brushed it off and again answered their question with my own quasi-question - I was like "I'm a.....lawyer?   Yeah, I'm a lawyer.  Holy sh!t I am a lawyer."


Felt very weird to say that.





man, i want to feel weird like that so bad!

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 09, 2007, 10:58:37 AM
All it due time, young padawan.  ;)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Denny Crane on August 09, 2007, 10:59:44 AM
All it due time, young padawan.  ;)

Have you started writing your name followed by "Esq." yet?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: jd06 on August 09, 2007, 11:10:29 AM
All it due time, young padawan.  ;)

Have you started writing your name followed by "Esq." yet?

That's generally poor form.  It's construed, as Jim Rome might say, as "self gloss."  In practice we use that title as a sign of respect when corresponding with another attorney and they use it in return when corresponding with us, but we don't tag ourselves with it.  Just one of those things....
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 09, 2007, 12:03:57 PM
All it due time, young padawan.  ;)

Have you started writing your name followed by "Esq." yet?

That's generally poor form.  It's construed, as Jim Rome might say, as "self gloss."  In practice we use that title as a sign of respect when corresponding with another attorney and they use it in return when corresponding with us, but we don't tag ourselves with it.  Just one of those things....

Right.  As a technical matter, I couldn't use it legally anyway until the bar results come back and we find out if we are Esquires or not.  But as jd06 points out, it's not really used by lawyers in the profession especially if you work for a firm.  I was told that it is understood that if you work for a firm your business card will simply state your name. No "esq" attached.  I was also told that the Esq. is moreso used by solo practitioners where it is not easily apparent that the individual is associated with the law.

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: jd06 on August 09, 2007, 01:10:20 PM
Yeah, my business card states "Attorney at Law" (to distinguish me from one of our paralegals who have cards as well) and when I draft correspondence it simply states "Associate" under my name. I'm on the left side of the letterhead.  They get the idea.  :)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: cui bono? on August 09, 2007, 04:24:33 PM
All it due time, young padawan.  ;)

Have you started writing your name followed by "Esq." yet?

That's generally poor form.  It's construed, as Jim Rome might say, as "self gloss."  In practice we use that title as a sign of respect when corresponding with another attorney and they use it in return when corresponding with us, but we don't tag ourselves with it.  Just one of those things....

Right.  As a technical matter, I couldn't use it legally anyway until the bar results come back and we find out if we are Esquires or not.  But as jd06 points out, it's not really used by lawyers in the profession especially if you work for a firm.  I was told that it is understood that if you work for a firm your business card will simply state your name. No "esq" attached.  I was also told that the Esq. is moreso used by solo practitioners where it is not easily apparent that the individual is associated with the law.



In that case, I got a question.  It just so happens that I'm working with someone who uses the esq on their business cards, etc.  The lil stalker that I am  :D, I look that person up on the Florida Bar website because there were some "questionable" things that he/she said about the law that made me raise an eyebrow. So the long and short of it is that this person has been disbarred. Can this person still use the "esq"?     
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on August 09, 2007, 04:25:46 PM
Lol that sounds like an MPRE question.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: cui bono? on August 09, 2007, 04:26:56 PM
lol  :D
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: jd06 on August 09, 2007, 04:37:23 PM
All it due time, young padawan.  ;)

Have you started writing your name followed by "Esq." yet?

That's generally poor form.  It's construed, as Jim Rome might say, as "self gloss."  In practice we use that title as a sign of respect when corresponding with another attorney and they use it in return when corresponding with us, but we don't tag ourselves with it.  Just one of those things....

Right.  As a technical matter, I couldn't use it legally anyway until the bar results come back and we find out if we are Esquires or not.  But as jd06 points out, it's not really used by lawyers in the profession especially if you work for a firm.  I was told that it is understood that if you work for a firm your business card will simply state your name. No "esq" attached.  I was also told that the Esq. is moreso used by solo practitioners where it is not easily apparent that the individual is associated with the law.



In that case, I got a question.  It just so happens that I'm working with someone who uses the esq on their business cards, etc.  The lil stalker that I am  :D, I look that person up on the Florida Bar website because there were some "questionable" things that he/she said about the law that made me raise an eyebrow. So the long and short of it is that this person has been disbarred. Can this person still use the "esq"?     

No. And if you were an attorney in my state (CA) you'd be obligated to report 'em to the bar, who would in turn raise holy hell with the faux lawyer  :o







Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: cui bono? on August 09, 2007, 04:45:11 PM
YIKES, well good thing I'm not there or an attny.  But doesn't that person know this?! I mean this person was disbarred so he/she kinda has to know something about the law.  But then again obviously not enuf if he/she was saying stuff that made me (with only 1 yr down) go hmm.   
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: jd06 on August 09, 2007, 04:56:10 PM
YIKES, well good thing I'm not there or an attny.  But doesn't that person know this?! I mean this person was disbarred so he/she kinda has to know something about the law.  But then again obviously not enuf if he/she was saying stuff that made me (with only 1 yr down) go hmm.   

It happens that attorneys who are suspended/disbarred sometimes continue to practice.  Probably because practicing law is the only way they know to make decent money.  And it probably happens more frequently than we know because, typically, no one is checking.  The only time I've ever been asked for my bar card is when I need to get my camera phone in the courthouse.  I know of only one judge out here who takes the time to punch in your name when you appear before him - just to make sure you're legit and active.  But if you're practicing w/o a license, at least in CA, it's a crime.  God know, the profession doesn't need any more assaults on its integrity!   :)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: cui bono? on August 09, 2007, 05:02:57 PM
YIKES, well good thing I'm not there or an attny.  But doesn't that person know this?! I mean this person was disbarred so he/she kinda has to know something about the law.  But then again obviously not enuf if he/she was saying stuff that made me (with only 1 yr down) go hmm.   

It happens that attorneys who are suspended/disbarred sometimes continue to practice.  Probably because practicing law is the only way they know to make decent money.  And it probably happens more frequently than we know because, typically, no one is checking.  The only time I've ever been asked for my bar card is when I need to get my camera phone in the courthouse.  I know of only one judge out here who takes the time to punch in your name when you appear before him - just to make sure you're legit and active.  But if you're practicing w/o a license, at least in CA, it's a crime.  God know, the profession doesn't need any more assaults on its integrity!   :)

Hmm, good pt.   LOL  leave it to me to check  :D.  This may sound like a dumb question but what would it (the crime) amount to?  Apparently this person has had the esq for over a year.  I don't think this person is actually saying "I'm an attorney" but does have the esq.       
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on August 09, 2007, 08:12:34 PM
Some of the Rules of Professional Conduct apply to legal professionals as well as attorneys (i.e. paralegals, law clerks, etc.)

However, I think the reporting rules only apply to actual attorneys so cui bono you might be safe.

YIKES, well good thing I'm not there or an attny.  But doesn't that person know this?! I mean this person was disbarred so he/she kinda has to know something about the law.  But then again obviously not enuf if he/she was saying stuff that made me (with only 1 yr down) go hmm.   
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: cui bono? on August 10, 2007, 06:17:46 AM
I think I'm safe too-  I didn't even take Pro Rep yet.  *whew*  :D  But I still dont get why this person would do that.  It's so unnecessary. 

Some of the Rules of Professional Conduct apply to legal professionals as well as attorneys (i.e. paralegals, law clerks, etc.)

However, I think the reporting rules only apply to actual attorneys so cui bono you might be safe.

YIKES, well good thing I'm not there or an attny.  But doesn't that person know this?! I mean this person was disbarred so he/she kinda has to know something about the law.  But then again obviously not enuf if he/she was saying stuff that made me (with only 1 yr down) go "hmm".   

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 10, 2007, 09:13:14 AM
YIKES, well good thing I'm not there or an attny.  But doesn't that person know this?! I mean this person was disbarred so he/she kinda has to know something about the law.  But then again obviously not enuf if he/she was saying stuff that made me (with only 1 yr down) go hmm.   

It happens that attorneys who are suspended/disbarred sometimes continue to practice.  Probably because practicing law is the only way they know to make decent money.  And it probably happens more frequently than we know because, typically, no one is checking.  The only time I've ever been asked for my bar card is when I need to get my camera phone in the courthouse.  I know of only one judge out here who takes the time to punch in your name when you appear before him - just to make sure you're legit and active.  But if you're practicing w/o a license, at least in CA, it's a crime.  God know, the profession doesn't need any more assaults on its integrity!   :)


Same in NY and in NJ.  In fact, practicing the law without a license is a crime in any state for that matter.

Drop a dime on that fool. :D


Can't wait to get the bar card.  (speaking positively)  For as much crap as we had to go through for that little card, I'm gonna flash that joker around like the FBI on every given opportunity like it's going out of style.
 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: cui bono? on August 10, 2007, 09:24:32 AM
YIKES, well good thing I'm not there or an attny.  But doesn't that person know this?! I mean this person was disbarred so he/she kinda has to know something about the law.  But then again obviously not enuf if he/she was saying stuff that made me (with only 1 yr down) go hmm.   

It happens that attorneys who are suspended/disbarred sometimes continue to practice.  Probably because practicing law is the only way they know to make decent money.  And it probably happens more frequently than we know because, typically, no one is checking.  The only time I've ever been asked for my bar card is when I need to get my camera phone in the courthouse.  I know of only one judge out here who takes the time to punch in your name when you appear before him - just to make sure you're legit and active.  But if you're practicing w/o a license, at least in CA, it's a crime.  God know, the profession doesn't need any more assaults on its integrity!   :)


Same in NY and in NJ.  In fact, practicing the law without a license is a crime in any state for that matter.

Drop a dime on that fool. :D


Can't wait to get the bar card.  (speaking positively)  For as much crap as we had to go through for that little card, I'm gonna flash that joker around like the FBI on every given opportunity like it's going out of style.
 

LOL, you ignant  :D  The person is cool and is sorta kinda helping me out with something even tho it seems like I'm helping myself.  He/she was just talking soem madness about the law and I was like  :o .  Not that I know anything about what he/she was talking about but it just didn't seem correct.  So I checked homie out and lo and behold he/she had been disbarred.  So then I double checked the business card to make sure there were no mispellings in the name/cross reference.  Homie has the "esq".

You will have the opp to flash the card in the very near future (speaking definitively  ;))   LOL, that reminds me of when I turned 21 and showed everyone my ID.  Even tho I never got carded  :D       
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: jd06 on August 10, 2007, 09:29:26 AM
I hear ya Sands. There are a couple courthouses out here that won't let you bring in your camera phone without the bar card.  So I look forward to that moment when I hit the front of the line:  "Are you in an attorney, sir?"  as I slowly retrieve the card from my wallet.  ;)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 10, 2007, 09:38:22 AM
It still doesn't quite feel real to say that I am a lawyer.  Maybe when the billable hours start kicking my butt.  Jd06, do you practice in northern or southern Cal?  How's the cost of living out there just out of curiousity?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: jd06 on August 10, 2007, 09:51:22 AM
You'll feel wierd saying it for a while, Sands.  But you've earned the privilege (or at least you will have come November!).  I'm in Southern California, just outside LA.  I appear as far west as downtown LA and as far east as Riverside and San Bernardino.  Cost of living is really dependent on what county you're in.  In LA the median home price is around $500k, in Orange County it's around $600k, but in San Bernardino County it's like $350k.  So a lot of us live on the "outskirts" and fight the traffic grind.  Luckily, my office is only about 5 miles from my house, so that's nice.   
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 10, 2007, 09:59:19 AM
Not bad. I'm making moves on a few apartments in Manhattan and was curious what is important to other lawyers as far as time to commute to work vs. price, etc. 

Now that the bar is out of the way, I guess the next step is to start thinking about logistics.  That LA traffic is no joke!  I've been there before.  So many lanes full of people going nowhere.  Don't know how you guys do it.

Being from the midwest originally, I still can't quite fathom some of these NYC prices for apartments.  I want to be close to work, at least for the first few years.  5 miles would be great.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: jd06 on August 10, 2007, 10:16:00 AM
Born and raised in So Cal.  Been to NYC a couple times and loved it. Seriously considered relocating there after undergrad.  But I'm firmly planted in CA now 'cause no way am I ever gonna take another bar exam!   ;)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 10, 2007, 10:21:18 AM
Born and raised in So Cal.  Been to NYC a couple times and loved it. Seriously considered relocating there after undergrad.  But I'm firmly planted in CA now 'cause no way am I ever gonna take another bar exam!   ;)

I heard that!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have a good friend who practices law in another state and always used to talk about how she hated the job market there, hated the pay in that state, etc., and for years I could never understand why she didn't just move to another state and practice law somewhere else.  Seemed so easy from the outside looking in.  Boy was I wrong.

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: LBJFan on August 11, 2007, 10:53:13 PM
I met my first "client" this past week -- My boss wants me to start interviewing all the clients we bring in from here on out because by November these cases will be ready for me to take over...ummm ok.

So, the guy was an older black man and he was describing how he felt he was forced into early retirement b/c of his age and his race and he started telling a story about how he went to his boss and complained about there being a lack of blacks in upper management...he made the statement "white people like to talk about golf and the stock market...while us black folk like to talk about clothes and dancing. I can't talk about those things with white folk! Thats why we need blacks in upper management; so we can talk about the stuff WE want to talk about!"

I liked to have thrown my pencil at him. I wanted to stand up and say -- thats NOT all we like to talk about man!!

Anyway...his wife then proceeded to write me a letter a few days later stating that she thought my attire was inappropriate and I'm breaking corporate America's dress code...and that I should pull my hair back and wear smaller earrings etc. I had on a SUIT by the way...the shirt I had on underneath it she didnt like and she continued on by stating what kind of shirt I should have worn. And I wasn't wearing huge bamboo earrings circa 1989...they were just long earrings...and they were cute as hell I might add.  ::)

SMH...having clients is overrated. I felt like my grandmother was chastising me or something.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Denny Crane on August 11, 2007, 10:57:43 PM

SMH...having clients is overrated.

But choosing your clients is priceless.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: LBJFan on August 11, 2007, 11:03:30 PM

SMH...having clients is overrated.

But choosing your clients is priceless.

True...And we're probably not going to take the case ultimately because the guy can't produce any documents or names. He's kind of older and worked there for a looooong time and can't come up with specifics. I just wish I could've opted out entirely-- In their eyes I'm younger than their children...thus they want to scold I guess. I'm finding out...you have to put up with all kinds.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 12, 2007, 12:46:45 PM
I met my first "client" this past week -- My boss wants me to start interviewing all the clients we bring in from here on out because by November these cases will be ready for me to take over...ummm ok.

So, the guy was an older black man and he was describing how he felt he was forced into early retirement b/c of his age and his race and he started telling a story about how he went to his boss and complained about there being a lack of blacks in upper management...he made the statement "white people like to talk about golf and the stock market...while us black folk like to talk about clothes and dancing. I can't talk about those things with white folk! Thats why we need blacks in upper management; so we can talk about the stuff WE want to talk about!"

I liked to have thrown my pencil at him. I wanted to stand up and say -- thats NOT all we like to talk about man!!

Anyway...his wife then proceeded to write me a letter a few days later stating that she thought my attire was inappropriate and I'm breaking corporate America's dress code...and that I should pull my hair back and wear smaller earrings etc. I had on a SUIT by the way...the shirt I had on underneath it she didnt like and she continued on by stating what kind of shirt I should have worn. And I wasn't wearing huge bamboo earrings circa 1989...they were just long earrings...and they were cute as hell I might add.  ::)

SMH...having clients is overrated. I felt like my grandmother was chastising me or something.


 :o


gethefuckoutahere!!!  two times. 


The audacity.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on August 12, 2007, 04:56:40 PM
Courtroom attire is different from normal everyday interaction with clients attire.  It sounds like what you were wearing was probably fine for the office.  The lady must have been confused . . . and, if she had something to say she should've said it to your face.  :-\ 

Don't you love it when that happens? 

But, at the end of the day, don't you love it that they still have to pay you?  ;)

I met my first "client" this past week -- My boss wants me to start interviewing all the clients we bring in from here on out because by November these cases will be ready for me to take over...ummm ok.

So, the guy was an older black man and he was describing how he felt he was forced into early retirement b/c of his age and his race and he started telling a story about how he went to his boss and complained about there being a lack of blacks in upper management...he made the statement "white people like to talk about golf and the stock market...while us black folk like to talk about clothes and dancing. I can't talk about those things with white folk! Thats why we need blacks in upper management; so we can talk about the stuff WE want to talk about!"

I liked to have thrown my pencil at him. I wanted to stand up and say -- thats NOT all we like to talk about man!!

Anyway...his wife then proceeded to write me a letter a few days later stating that she thought my attire was inappropriate and I'm breaking corporate America's dress code...and that I should pull my hair back and wear smaller earrings etc. I had on a SUIT by the way...the shirt I had on underneath it she didnt like and she continued on by stating what kind of shirt I should have worn. And I wasn't wearing huge bamboo earrings circa 1989...they were just long earrings...and they were cute as hell I might add.  ::)

SMH...having clients is overrated. I felt like my grandmother was chastising me or something.


 :o


gethefuckoutahere!!!  two times. 


The audacity.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on September 15, 2007, 03:44:23 PM
Just got off the phone with my midwest BLSA peoples (KS & MO) and thank God all 3 of them passed the bar (2 in KS, 1 in MO)!!! ;D

The MBE numbers are in for July 2007.  As a quick reminder for everybody (except the graduating 3L's) who might be unfamiliar with the MBE, the "Multistate Bar Exam" is a 200 question multiple choice fill-in-the-bubble exam that represents half of your bar exam in most states.  With the exceptions of Texas and Cali, most states have a 2 day bar exam, one day is the local day (writing essays), and the other day you will be taking the MBE.  It tests over all of the "Big 6" subjects that you learned (allegedly) during 1L, except for Civ Pro, which is replaced by Evidence.  Each section has about 33 questions.

These questions (see earlier pages in this thread) are some of the trickiest, illogical, purposely twisted friggin things you have ever seen.  It makes the MPRE (ethics exam) look like a joke, and makes the LSAT look like the PSAT.  Generally speaking, it is the MBE (and not the local day essays) that presents bar applicants with the biggest challenge.


Anyway, here are this year's National Average numbers for your future reference:


Constitutional Law:  20.73 out of 33  (63% Correct)
Contracts:           21.07 out of 34  (62% Correct)
Criminal Law & Pro:  20.75 out of 33  (63% Correct)
Evidence:            19.11 out of 33  (58% Correct) 
Property:            21.26 out of 33  (64% Correct)
Torts:               23.15 out of 34  (68% Correct)
---------------------------
Total -          126.07 out of 200  (63% Correct)




*Edited to include possible totals for each section
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on September 15, 2007, 03:47:58 PM
What is each section out of?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on September 15, 2007, 03:56:50 PM
What is each section out of?

CONSTITUTIONAL  (33)                                           
CONTRACTS (34)                                                     
CRIMINAL  (33)                                                       
EVIDENCE  (33)                                                         
PROPERTY (33)                                             
TORTS  (34)   
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on September 15, 2007, 04:19:37 PM
Muy interesante.  And what does NY require to pass?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on September 16, 2007, 10:23:29 AM
Muy interesante.  And what does NY require to pass?


665 points total out of 1000 possible when you add the MBE to your 5 local essays and the MPT and the 50 NY multiple choice questions.

Plugging into the handy spreadsheet calculator, assuming the national average above and average scores down the middle gives you the following:

MBE 126 > 252
Essay1 5 out of 10 > 55.91
Essay2 5 out of 10 > 55.91
Essay3 5 out of 10 > 55.91
Essay4 5 out of 10 > 55.91
Essay5 5 out of 10 > 55.91
MPT 5 out of 10 > 69.89
25 out of 50 NYMC > 65.83
---------------------------
Total   667 out of 1000 (pass by 2 points)



The hardest D+ you'll ever have to earn in your entire life. :D


Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on September 16, 2007, 10:30:16 AM
Lol and they keep you in suspense until November, right?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on September 16, 2007, 10:41:14 AM
those rat bastards
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on September 16, 2007, 11:11:41 AM
Friend in less populous state: You can call me Friend, Esq., now!
Sands: You can call me...Sands.

;)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on September 16, 2007, 11:55:57 AM
Pretty much. 

We are NOTHINGS right now.  Soldiers without a war.

I went out last night with a bunch of B-school people (didn't know that B-School folks actually bonded like that) and they were all like, so what are you doing right now?  My response about 10 times last night: not a damn thang!

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on September 16, 2007, 12:00:54 PM
Lol well enjoy it while it lasts, I suppose.  Do you wish you'd picked an earlier start date?  I think I'd be bored by now, but maybe not.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on September 16, 2007, 01:33:19 PM
It wouldn't be so bad if I wasn't dang near broke!!!  I go out here and there, but my friends usually have to spring for the tabs, with the understanding of course that I'll be picking up the tabs in the very near future for everybody whenever we go out.

But as for now we're all living off of fumes.  My study partner starts Monday at her gig in the city.  My jersey firm friends have already started.  I'm one of the last ones left.  For the ones who have already started, they tell me to enjoy ALL of this time because working at the firm is...well...we know how that is.



Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on September 17, 2007, 05:03:10 PM
Yes, the B school people bond big time . . . they have time to! :)

The staying at home thing isn't cool  . . . even if I was financially stable I think after about 3 weeks to a month I would be going crazy.

Pretty much. 

We are NOTHINGS right now.  Soldiers without a war.

I went out last night with a bunch of B-school people (didn't know that B-School folks actually bonded like that) and they were all like, so what are you doing right now?  My response about 10 times last night: not a damn thang!


Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on September 17, 2007, 07:48:09 PM
Yes, the B school people bond big time . . . they have time to! :)

The staying at home thing isn't cool  . . . even if I was financially stable I think after about 3 weeks to a month I would be going crazy.

Pretty much. 

We are NOTHINGS right now.  Soldiers without a war.

I went out last night with a bunch of B-school people (didn't know that B-School folks actually bonded like that) and they were all like, so what are you doing right now?  My response about 10 times last night: not a damn thang!



I've gone past crazy.  All the rest of my classmates starting in NY started today.  The Jersey firm people started either 2 weeks ago or last week.  All the clerkship people started a month ago.  I'm like the last samurai up in this piece. :P
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on September 17, 2007, 09:23:16 PM
Hey though, you partially know when the madness ends.  You have a start date. ;)

So just enjoy the rest of it.  Hit the snooze button a couple more times. Go to the park and feed the ducks.  Have a couple of drinks.  Live it up!!! :)

I know, its so hard though, because we are used to working hard.  We feel strange not having to spend a huge chunk of our day working for "the man." (LOL) Or on case briefs and memos.  :-\

Yes, the B school people bond big time . . . they have time to! :)

The staying at home thing isn't cool  . . . even if I was financially stable I think after about 3 weeks to a month I would be going crazy.

Pretty much. 

We are NOTHINGS right now.  Soldiers without a war.

I went out last night with a bunch of B-school people (didn't know that B-School folks actually bonded like that) and they were all like, so what are you doing right now?  My response about 10 times last night: not a damn thang!



I've gone past crazy.  All the rest of my classmates starting in NY started today.  The Jersey firm people started either 2 weeks ago or last week.  All the clerkship people started a month ago.  I'm like the last samurai up in this piece. :P
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: blk_reign on September 17, 2007, 09:41:53 PM
MO?

Friend in less populous state: You can call me Friend, Esq., now!
Sands: You can call me...Sands.

;)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on September 18, 2007, 07:02:36 AM
Hey though, you partially know when the madness ends.  You have a start date. ;)

So just enjoy the rest of it.  Hit the snooze button a couple more times. Go to the park and feed the ducks.  Have a couple of drinks.  Live it up!!! :)

I know, its so hard though, because we are used to working hard.  We feel strange not having to spend a huge chunk of our day working for "the man." (LOL) Or on case briefs and memos.  :-\

Yes, the B school people bond big time . . . they have time to! :)

The staying at home thing isn't cool  . . . even if I was financially stable I think after about 3 weeks to a month I would be going crazy.

Pretty much. 

We are NOTHINGS right now.  Soldiers without a war.

I went out last night with a bunch of B-school people (didn't know that B-School folks actually bonded like that) and they were all like, so what are you doing right now?  My response about 10 times last night: not a damn thang!



I've gone past crazy.  All the rest of my classmates starting in NY started today.  The Jersey firm people started either 2 weeks ago or last week.  All the clerkship people started a month ago.  I'm like the last samurai up in this piece. :P


Yeah you're right. I can feel the walls closing in though.  Bills are showing up every day and I'm like "uhhhhhh, I ain't got it, man."  My landlord is like "Rent nukka!" and I'm just like "uhhhhh, I ain't got it, man."

My answer to everything is "It's coming."

Some folks can appreciate it, but not everybody can.  I might need to get a part time gig bartending or something. :P


Note to future graduates - Don't take an October 15 start date unless you have mucho $ in the bank.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Nowhere Man on September 18, 2007, 07:00:13 PM
The Florida scores are out...... :o
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on September 19, 2007, 09:13:23 AM
The Florida scores are out...... :o

Yes they are.  Both my Rutgers homegirls who took florida PASSED!!!!!!!  Congrats to them.

Making even more people who I have to call esquire for the next few months.  Great. :P
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on September 19, 2007, 10:06:29 PM
Note to future graduates - Don't take an October 15 start date unless you have mucho $ in the bank.

What date would you recommend?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on September 20, 2007, 09:07:59 AM
September 15.  Long enough to get a good vacation in and visit with family,  but not long enough to put you in the poor house . . . lol. :) ;)


Note to future graduates - Don't take an October 15 start date unless you have mucho $ in the bank.

What date would you recommend?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on September 20, 2007, 09:59:07 AM
September 15.  Long enough to get a good vacation in and visit with family,  but not long enough to put you in the poor house . . . lol. :) ;)


Note to future graduates - Don't take an October 15 start date unless you have mucho $ in the bank.

What date would you recommend?


I concur in the judgment with Justice SMU.  My study partner started Monday this week and I think that was perfect timing.  Anything in August is too soon after the bar.  The 2nd/3rd week of September is ideal - plenty of time to do what you need to do and relax before the gig starts.  Oct. 1 would be pushing it.  But Oct. 15th?....boy.  Not the good look if you are like me and have no loot and don't qualify for private loans.  If you can get private loans then it would probably be a different story but I have never received them, nor the bar loan, for each of the 3 years I've been in law school.  Crazy right? You would think a hey-I've-graduated-from-law-school-and-I've-got-a-JD-and-I'm-taking-the-bar loan would be a no-brainer for any lender out there but I guess not so much.  Go figure.

I was talking to another fellow '07 grad who started last week and she said she was READY to stark work!  It wasn't even the money with her, she was just bored out of her mind.


Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on September 20, 2007, 10:19:34 AM
Yes. I am ready to start doing something! I am so accustomed to working hard and being on a schedule that I feel out of place not having that structure in my life.  I start a part time temporary teaching gig on October 1st which would give me time in the afternoons to keep looking for a full time job. so, a little bit of structure, and a little bit of money, but still no normalcy yet.  :-\ Hopefully by December  I will find something actually in the practice of law (rather than teaching it) so I can put the bar card that I hav already earned to good use!!!   ;)

As for the private loans--I got one, but it ended up not being enough.  I thought I would have found some type of legal job in a months time but it didn't work out that way.  I wouldn't change my decision--I might have taken out a couple more grand, but then its like I would have owed that much more back, so if they don't get it now, they get it later.

I don't see how the "professionally unemployed" do what they do.  It would drive me out of my mind.

September 15.  Long enough to get a good vacation in and visit with family,  but not long enough to put you in the poor house . . . lol. :) ;)


Note to future graduates - Don't take an October 15 start date unless you have mucho $ in the bank.

What date would you recommend?


I concur in the judgment with Justice SMU.  My study partner started Monday this week and I think that was perfect timing.  Anything in August is too soon after the bar.  The 2nd/3rd week of September is ideal - plenty of time to do what you need to do and relax before the gig starts.  Oct. 1 would be pushing it.  But Oct. 15th?....boy.  Not the good look if you are like me and have no loot and don't qualify for private loans.  If you can get private loans then it would probably be a different story but I have never received them, nor the bar loan, for each of the 3 years I've been in law school.  Crazy right? You would think a hey-I've-graduated-from-law-school-and-I've-got-a-JD-and-I'm-taking-the-bar loan would be a no-brainer for any lender out there but I guess not so much.  Go figure.

I was talking to another fellow '07 grad who started last week and she said she was READY to stark work!  It wasn't even the money with her, she was just bored out of her mind.



Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on September 20, 2007, 10:39:07 AM
Yes. I am ready to start doing something! I am so accustomed to working hard and being on a schedule that I feel out of place not having that structure in my life.  I start a part time temporary teaching gig on October 1st which would give me time in the afternoons to keep looking for a full time job. so, a little bit of structure, and a little bit of money, but still no normalcy yet.  :-\ Hopefully by December  I will find something actually in the practice of law (rather than teaching it) so I can put the bar card that I hav already earned to good use!!!   ;)

As for the private loans--I got one, but it ended up not being enough.  I thought I would have found some type of legal job in a months time but it didn't work out that way.  I wouldn't change my decision--I might have taken out a couple more grand, but then its like I would have owed that much more back, so if they don't get it now, they get it later.

I don't see how the "professionally unemployed" do what they do.  It would drive me out of my mind.





Amen!
 
I been losing my mind over here.  But my friends are quick to remind me that I'm only TEMPORARILY unemployed at the moment.  Temporary or not, my bank account is still on E right now so it doesn't really make too much difference for the time between now and Oct. 15.


Good luck with the job hunt.

BTW I was hanging out last weekend in the City with some SMU B-School grads.  Apparently you guys have a good B-School, cause they all had nice gigs in NJ and NY.  After listening to them talk for a while, I sometimes wonder who really got the better end of the stick on this one. They spend only 2 years in school and get to take a job wherever they want b/c they don't have to take a bar exam to start working in any state.  And they were kind enough to share with me that the average salary ranges were between 80 to 120k/yr.  Must be nice.


In re loans - at leats you got something.  I was blessed to get a bonus from the gig that allowed me to pay rent and bills for these past few months, but had it not been for that, I would have been out here bad.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on September 20, 2007, 11:52:54 AM
Sept. 15 it is :)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on September 20, 2007, 12:37:46 PM
SMU has one of the best business schools in the country.  Really. There is even a joint JD/MBA program at my school (get both degrees in 4 years) . . . I have a friend who is doing the joint program. Had I not had a 3 year scholarship (or, even if I had known that the job hunt would be sooooooooooo slow) I probably would have tried to get the joint degrees.

Yeah, I am thankful for the private loan . . . It at least lasted me through the bar exam, which was what it was really for to begin with . . . and when it ran out about the middle of August, for my hubby :)

Alci, September 15 sounds good to me : )  Its those little things along the way that we don't always get advice on that make this board a good place for law students. Any place where you can ask questions about this process and get honest answers gets my approval.  :)

Yes. I am ready to start doing something! I am so accustomed to working hard and being on a schedule that I feel out of place not having that structure in my life.  I start a part time temporary teaching gig on October 1st which would give me time in the afternoons to keep looking for a full time job. so, a little bit of structure, and a little bit of money, but still no normalcy yet.  :-\ Hopefully by December  I will find something actually in the practice of law (rather than teaching it) so I can put the bar card that I hav already earned to good use!!!   ;)

As for the private loans--I got one, but it ended up not being enough.  I thought I would have found some type of legal job in a months time but it didn't work out that way.  I wouldn't change my decision--I might have taken out a couple more grand, but then its like I would have owed that much more back, so if they don't get it now, they get it later.

I don't see how the "professionally unemployed" do what they do.  It would drive me out of my mind.





Amen!
 
I been losing my mind over here.  But my friends are quick to remind me that I'm only TEMPORARILY unemployed at the moment.  Temporary or not, my bank account is still on E right now so it doesn't really make too much difference for the time between now and Oct. 15.


Good luck with the job hunt.

BTW I was hanging out last weekend in the City with some SMU B-School grads.  Apparently you guys have a good B-School, cause they all had nice gigs in NJ and NY.  After listening to them talk for a while, I sometimes wonder who really got the better end of the stick on this one. They spend only 2 years in school and get to take a job wherever they want b/c they don't have to take a bar exam to start working in any state.  And they were kind enough to share with me that the average salary ranges were between 80 to 120k/yr.  Must be nice.


In re loans - at leats you got something.  I was blessed to get a bonus from the gig that allowed me to pay rent and bills for these past few months, but had it not been for that, I would have been out here bad.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on September 20, 2007, 12:59:12 PM
Right!  I just wish we had somebody put this process out there before we got here.  It would have helped a lot.  I needed a couple of folks like us to be on here last year talking about "yo, son.....Sept. 15th, kid.  That's the way to go."   ;D

Hopefully they'll resurrect this thread next summer when they're going through it.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on September 20, 2007, 01:02:25 PM
Lol.  Yes. I don't know about you, but much of my law school experience has been like--if someone had just told me so, this would have been a lot easier!!!! :-\

Right!  I just wish we had somebody put this process out there before we got here.  It would have helped a lot.  I needed a couple of folks like us to be on here last year talking about "yo, son.....Sept. 15th, kid.  That's the way to go."   ;D

Hopefully they'll resurrect this thread next summer when they're going through it.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on September 20, 2007, 01:43:23 PM
Same here.  I think it's because our class (2007) was the first class to really participate in LSD.  When we got here, there wasn't anybody ahead of us, and we've been kinda learning this thing the hard way as we go along every step of the way.

Lol.  Yes. I don't know about you, but much of my law school experience has been like--if someone had just told me so, this would have been a lot easier!!!! :-\

Right!  I just wish we had somebody put this process out there before we got here.  It would have helped a lot.  I needed a couple of folks like us to be on here last year talking about "yo, son.....Sept. 15th, kid.  That's the way to go."   ;D

Hopefully they'll resurrect this thread next summer when they're going through it.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on September 20, 2007, 02:19:44 PM
Yeah, that's true.

Same here.  I think it's because our class (2007) was the first class to really participate in LSD.  When we got here, there wasn't anybody ahead of us, and we've been kinda learning this thing the hard way as we go along every step of the way.

Lol.  Yes. I don't know about you, but much of my law school experience has been like--if someone had just told me so, this would have been a lot easier!!!! :-\

Right!  I just wish we had somebody put this process out there before we got here.  It would have helped a lot.  I needed a couple of folks like us to be on here last year talking about "yo, son.....Sept. 15th, kid.  That's the way to go."   ;D

Hopefully they'll resurrect this thread next summer when they're going through it.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: blk_reign on September 20, 2007, 07:34:57 PM
is that an offer to help me with my reading? :D

Yes. I am ready to start doing something!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on September 20, 2007, 09:55:09 PM
Not by a long shot!! Lol.  I love you but I am swamped in lesson plans right now. Believe it or not I am more worried about teaching the english class than the law classes.  :-\

is that an offer to help me with my reading? :D

Yes. I am ready to start doing something!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on October 06, 2007, 01:37:16 PM
The Connecticut people found out yesterday.  Since I'm sure he won't mind putting it out there, our former chair for Northeast BLSA passed!!!  Always glad to hear it.

Still waiting until mid-November for New York/New Jersey....


 :P(uhg)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on October 06, 2007, 01:42:04 PM
Lol ready to start work in a week?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on October 06, 2007, 01:55:11 PM
Mannnnnnnn....
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on October 11, 2007, 01:41:42 PM
when do you find out about the bar?

Work on Monday!!! ha ha
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on October 11, 2007, 07:32:25 PM
November second has never come so slowly . . .

Sigh. . . .
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on October 12, 2007, 09:59:06 AM
We found out 10/1. Life is a happy place.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: CamelMan on October 12, 2007, 10:39:44 AM
tag
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on October 12, 2007, 11:27:35 AM
We found out 10/1. Life is a happy place.

You were VA, right?  How was it?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: cui bono? on October 12, 2007, 12:12:58 PM
We found out 10/1. Life is a happy place.


CONGRATS! :)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on October 12, 2007, 12:53:24 PM
Yes. Congratulations!  I hope I am in a happy place on November 2nd.

We found out 10/1. Life is a happy place.


CONGRATS! :)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on October 12, 2007, 03:37:00 PM
We found out 10/1. Life is a happy place.

Yo congrats son.  That's wsup!!!  All that talkin it up we were doing must have paid off.  LOL

Keep the good vibes coming our way for those of us who don't find out until November.  SMU we gonna make it.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on October 12, 2007, 03:56:13 PM
Man, I don't know why they make us wait so long . . . boo. 

Not too much longer, though.  Only about 2 weeks. Attorneys have told me that they sometimes release the scores a little early . . . I'm still praying for good news for all of us!!!


We found out 10/1. Life is a happy place.

Yo congrats son.  That's wsup!!!  All that talkin it up we were doing must have paid off.  LOL

Keep the good vibes coming our way for those of us who don't find out until November.  SMU we gonna make it.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on October 12, 2007, 04:16:33 PM
We found out 10/1. Life is a happy place.

congrats :)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on October 13, 2007, 08:32:38 AM
We found out 10/1. Life is a happy place.

You were VA, right?  How was it?
I'm in IL.

I don't think VA has results yet (at least not as of last week when I spoke w/a friend there.)

IL is two days. I didn't think the essay day was that bad. I was far less confident after MBE day.

I definitely got the good vibes going for Sands and SMUJD and anyone else who took it this time around.

Except, uh, I'm not a "son".
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on October 26, 2007, 04:36:36 PM
Sigh. Still one week left!!!!!!   :-\ :-\ :-\
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on October 29, 2007, 12:55:17 PM
At least you have a week.  We still have several weeks up this way.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on October 29, 2007, 04:56:12 PM
If we have to wait more than 2 months, we're all in the same boat. 
I have been checking the website every day for the past week, hoping that they would release them early, as they have done in the past.   Looks like no such luck this time . . .

At least you have a week.  We still have several weeks up this way.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on November 01, 2007, 03:28:43 PM
IT'S OFFICIAL . . .  I PASSED THE BAR!!!!!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on November 01, 2007, 05:51:56 PM
IT'S OFFICIAL . . .  I PASSED THE BAR!!!!!


congratulations!!!!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: t L on November 01, 2007, 05:57:15 PM
IT'S OFFICIAL . . .  I PASSED THE BAR!!!!!


Congratulations.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on November 01, 2007, 06:18:03 PM
IT'S OFFICIAL . . .  I PASSED THE BAR!!!!!



OH MY GOODNESS!!!!!!!!!


That is wsup!!!!!!!!! 


Look at all that hard work we did this summer coming into fruition.   Please keep the good vibes coming out east.

Proud of you homie!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: cui bono? on November 02, 2007, 06:12:28 AM
IT'S OFFICIAL . . .  I PASSED THE BAR!!!!!



OMG!!  Congrats.   You so deserve it!  :)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: th2009 on November 02, 2007, 04:45:15 PM
CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU ARE NOW A LAWYER!![/b
[/size][/size][/size]]
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on November 05, 2007, 03:57:48 PM
Thanks everyone.

So I got the letter in the mail with my score and everything, and the next steps that I need to take for everything to be official.

So, guess what? 

I have to pay a total of $259.69 in fees. And I have to take another class that cost $140.00 by November 2, 2008.

The fun never ends.  :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\

But hey . . . .I PASSED!!!!!!!! WHO HOO!!!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on November 05, 2007, 04:19:59 PM
Thanks everyone.

So I got the letter in the mail with my score and everything, and the next steps that I need to take for everything to be official.

So, guess what? 

I have to pay a total of $259.69 in fees. And I have to take another class that cost $140.00 by November 2, 2008.

The fun never ends.  :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\

But hey . . . .I PASSED!!!!!!!! WHO HOO!!!


Fees I would gladly pay at this moment in time.

Again, good stuff.

NY/NJ is rumored to come out NEXT WEEK....[gasp] :o
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on November 06, 2007, 12:01:27 PM
IT'S OFFICIAL . . .  I PASSED THE BAR!!!!!

Congrats!

What's w/the more money?

Then again, we have to bring a check for $5 to the swearing-in ceremony. (At least it's not a cashier's check.)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on November 06, 2007, 01:48:00 PM
Part of it goes to the State Bar of Texas--membership dues.  The other part of it goes to the Attorney Occupational Tax that Texas has, which is $265.00 per year

IT'S OFFICIAL . . .  I PASSED THE BAR!!!!!

Congrats!

What's w/the more money?

Then again, we have to bring a check for $5 to the swearing-in ceremony. (At least it's not a cashier's check.)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on November 08, 2007, 09:07:59 AM
As of 9am this morning New Jersey bar exam results are up and yours truly is among the 79.6% of the people who passed!!!

Although I'm hype about it, obviously I have another one to wait for that is more critical to my employment in the state of New York....

...but its still a good feeling to know I'm officially an attorney somewhere.




Thanks again to all the BLSD'ers who chimed in on the practice questions this summer.  That helped.


 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: TinaTina on November 08, 2007, 09:34:29 AM
Congrats! 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: cui bono? on November 08, 2007, 10:30:12 AM
Congrats, man  :)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on November 08, 2007, 11:32:49 AM
congrats dude!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: pikey on November 08, 2007, 11:43:40 AM
CONGRATS!!!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: blk_reign on November 08, 2007, 12:18:33 PM
CONGRATS!!!!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on November 08, 2007, 03:18:14 PM
CONGRATS, MAN!!!!
Keep knocking them down!  I'm sure you passed New York as well . . . its just a matter of time before you get that confirmation!  ;) ;) ;)


As of 9am this morning New Jersey bar exam results are up and yours truly is among the 79.6% of the people who passed!!!

Although I'm hype about it, obviously I have another one to wait for that is more critical to my employment in the state of New York....

...but its still a good feeling to know I'm officially an attorney somewhere.




Thanks again to all the BLSD'ers who chimed in on the practice questions this summer.  That helped.


 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on November 08, 2007, 05:17:48 PM
As of 9am this morning New Jersey bar exam results are up and yours truly is among the 79.6% of the people who passed!!!

Although I'm hype about it, obviously I have another one to wait for that is more critical to my employment in the state of New York....

...but its still a good feeling to know I'm officially an attorney somewhere.




Thanks again to all the BLSD'ers who chimed in on the practice questions this summer.  That helped.


 

CONGRATS!!  Officially Burning Sands, Esq.  Must feel great!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: 2Lacoste on November 08, 2007, 06:07:57 PM
Congrats man.  Um, so you're passing down all your barzam studying secrets to us lowly 2- and 3Ls, right?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: GoldenAfro on November 08, 2007, 08:24:57 PM
Congrats!!!  :)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on November 09, 2007, 08:42:56 AM
Congrats man.  Um, so you're passing down all your barzam studying secrets to us lowly 2- and 3Ls, right?

Bruh that's what the last 60 pages on this thread are for. Be sure to dig it up in about 2 years when you're about to go into battle.



EDIT: and thanks all!  it is a good feeling.  Most everybody I know passed NJ but we had a few fallen soldiers (yikes!).  Its always tough finding out who passed and who didn't b/c you don't want to be the a$$hole to call somebody up talkin bout "Hey so I passed, did you pass?" and then have them say no.

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on November 09, 2007, 09:08:49 AM
Is the list not public?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: jd06 on November 09, 2007, 09:15:59 AM
Congratulations, Sands, and welcome to the club.  You'll be a great credit to the profession.  And I have no doubt that good news is on the way from NY, as well.  :)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on November 09, 2007, 12:34:35 PM
As of 9am this morning New Jersey bar exam results are up and yours truly is among the 79.6% of the people who passed!!!

Although I'm hype about it, obviously I have another one to wait for that is more critical to my employment in the state of New York....

...but its still a good feeling to know I'm officially an attorney somewhere.

Thanks again to all the BLSD'ers who chimed in on the practice questions this summer.  That helped.
 
Congrats! And I'll keep up the good wishes for the NY results.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on November 12, 2007, 09:59:15 AM
Thanks guys.  Will keep you posted.

A - the list comes out as just your ID # at first. I think they actually publish the names sometime later.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: LadyKD on November 12, 2007, 05:35:06 PM
Congrats Sands...Now gimme five dollars.  :D :D :D.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on November 12, 2007, 06:42:59 PM
Congrats Sands...Now gimme five dollars.  :D :D :D.

LOL
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on November 12, 2007, 11:52:12 PM
Got sworn in yesterday.  I have a barcard number.  Its all official now! :)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on November 13, 2007, 07:41:18 AM
We haven't gotten our bar cards yet. Just the license; not nearly as portable.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on November 13, 2007, 11:41:58 AM
Man you guys don't mess around in Texas.

We get sworn into Jersey on Dec. 2nd. 


The earliest date for New York I have seen is Jan. 30th, 2008.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: jd06 on November 13, 2007, 12:07:26 PM
Man you guys don't mess around in Texas.

We get sworn into Jersey on Dec. 2nd. 


The earliest date for New York I have seen is Jan. 30th, 2008.

In CA you don't have to wait for a formal ceremony.  You can have a notary swear you in.  I was in court the day after getting my official results in the mail...
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on November 13, 2007, 04:28:29 PM
You can be sworn in as soon as you get your results here as well, but the formal ceremony is so close to the release date that people just wait.  Plus its an excuse to take a weekend trip to the state capital. :)

Man you guys don't mess around in Texas.

We get sworn into Jersey on Dec. 2nd. 


The earliest date for New York I have seen is Jan. 30th, 2008.

In CA you don't have to wait for a formal ceremony.  You can have a notary swear you in.  I was in court the day after getting my official results in the mail...
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: pikey on November 14, 2007, 05:10:16 PM
Do you need to do both Barbri and PMBR or is Barbri alone enough?  Is Kaplan the only PMBR course is there a preferable one?  Should I sign up for Barbri now, or PMBR or both?

Gracias  :)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: jd06 on November 14, 2007, 05:40:51 PM
Do you need to do both Barbri and PMBR or is Barbri alone enough?  Is Kaplan the only PMBR course is there a preferable one?  Should I sign up for Barbri now, or PMBR or both?

Gracias  :)

Hey pikey - I think if you scroll through this thread, this topic was hit pretty heavily.  My short answer (worked for me in CA) is to take both, absolutely.  PMBR MBE review blew Barbri away, at least for my iteration of the exam (summer '06).   8)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: pikey on November 14, 2007, 05:50:01 PM
Do you need to do both Barbri and PMBR or is Barbri alone enough?  Is Kaplan the only PMBR course is there a preferable one?  Should I sign up for Barbri now, or PMBR or both?

Gracias  :)

Hey pikey - I think if you scroll through this thread, this topic was hit pretty heavily.  My short answer (worked for me in CA) is to take both, absolutely.  PMBR MBE review blew Barbri away, at least for my iteration of the exam (summer '06).   8)

Thanks!  I knew it was there somewhere, I was just feeling lazy.  ;)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on November 14, 2007, 07:03:53 PM
If you find it let me know ;).  I meant to chat up the pmbr guy today, but he'd probably just try to sell me on it.  I just want to know if I can get by only on barbri.  Ish is expensive.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on November 14, 2007, 09:23:58 PM
I would say you need to do both.  Yes, it is expensive, but like everything else in law school--the initial investment is well worth the potential return. 

I had to get a second job just to pay for barbri and pmbr during my last year of law school.  You have to do what you have to do to make it work.

Do you need to do both Barbri and PMBR or is Barbri alone enough?  Is Kaplan the only PMBR course is there a preferable one?  Should I sign up for Barbri now, or PMBR or both?

Gracias  :)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: pikey on November 15, 2007, 07:16:22 AM
If you find it let me know ;).  I meant to chat up the pmbr guy today, but he'd probably just try to sell me on it.  I just want to know if I can get by only on barbri.  Ish is expensive.

I know people at my school who just did barbri, but ymmv.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: jd06 on November 15, 2007, 09:17:41 AM
If nothing else, take the PMBR short course (3-day), which follows immediately after Barbri.  It's probably $400 or so, and well worth every penny.  Barbri, probably cause they know most people are doing PMBR as well, gives relatively short-shrift to the MBE's.  I also found that PMBR's sample questions, for the most part, more closely mirrored the actual exam.  Bottom line is the MBE's can absolutely make or break you.  You're already spending thousands on ls, Barbri, bar registration, etc.  A few hundred bucks into PMBR is well, well worth it....
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on November 15, 2007, 02:01:37 PM
Could not sleep last night at all.  Nervous as all get out.  1001 things run through your head the night before.  We all knew it was coming at 9am this morning privately.  It will be up publicly tomorrow.

Logged on and got the following: "The Board of Law Examiners congratulates you on passing the New York State bar examination held on July 24-25, 2007."

Then proceded to call everybody and their mama, including my own mama, and then walked into work late than a mug at about 12 noon and will be leaving in the next few minutes at 4pm to get up with the rest of the fellow associates who passed.

One of them put it best "Finding out you passed the bar is like finding out that you almost got hit by a big Mack truck but then somehow avoided it at the last second."  I'd say that's about right.

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Eugene Young on November 15, 2007, 02:06:22 PM
Could not sleep last night at all.  Nervous as all get out.  1001 things run through your head the night before.  We all knew it was coming at 9am this morning privately.  It will be up publicly tomorrow.

Logged on and got the following: "The Board of Law Examiners congratulates you on passing the New York State bar examination held on July 24-25, 2007."

Then proceded to call everybody and their mama, including my own mama, and then walked into work late than a mug at about 12 noon and will be leaving in the next few minutes at 4pm to get up with the rest of the fellow associates who passed.

One of them put it best "Finding out you passed the bar is like finding out that you almost got hit by a big Mack truck but then somehow avoided it at the last second."  I'd say that's about right.


[/quote

Much congrats playa....now lemme hold 10 dollars  ;)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on November 15, 2007, 02:27:03 PM
 :D
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: jd06 on November 15, 2007, 03:08:23 PM
Could not sleep last night at all.  Nervous as all get out.  1001 things run through your head the night before.  We all knew it was coming at 9am this morning privately.  It will be up publicly tomorrow.

Logged on and got the following: "The Board of Law Examiners congratulates you on passing the New York State bar examination held on July 24-25, 2007."

Then proceded to call everybody and their mama, including my own mama, and then walked into work late than a mug at about 12 noon and will be leaving in the next few minutes at 4pm to get up with the rest of the fellow associates who passed.

One of them put it best "Finding out you passed the bar is like finding out that you almost got hit by a big Mack truck but then somehow avoided it at the last second."  I'd say that's about right.



Congratulations (again) brother.  Of course, I knew it was in the bag  ;)  And I second that passing feeling - like the wind getting knocked out of you, but in a good way!   ;D
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: justGem on November 15, 2007, 03:09:19 PM
Nice suspense story.  Congrats Esquire.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on November 15, 2007, 05:33:36 PM
Congrats Sands! Celebrate until you don't feel like it anymore!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on November 15, 2007, 07:28:44 PM
Could not sleep last night at all.  Nervous as all get out.  1001 things run through your head the night before.  We all knew it was coming at 9am this morning privately.  It will be up publicly tomorrow.

Logged on and got the following: "The Board of Law Examiners congratulates you on passing the New York State bar examination held on July 24-25, 2007."

Then proceded to call everybody and their mama, including my own mama, and then walked into work late than a mug at about 12 noon and will be leaving in the next few minutes at 4pm to get up with the rest of the fellow associates who passed.

One of them put it best "Finding out you passed the bar is like finding out that you almost got hit by a big Mack truck but then somehow avoided it at the last second."  I'd say that's about right.



As if there were any doubt.  Congrats!!!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: GoldenAfro on November 15, 2007, 07:45:07 PM
That is so exciting! The last HUGE hurdle for a while. CONGRATS!!!!  :)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on November 15, 2007, 10:05:58 PM
Hmmmm:

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Enroll now. The deposit for 1Ls, 2Ls or 3Ls is $100. Your discount code is: [edited: join NBLSA to find out]. Attached is an e-form for you to complete and return to Kaplan PMBR at enroll@kaplanpmbr.com. Please check "yes" and put the code in the blank next to Membership Number.



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Thank you for making Kaplan PMBR part of your law school and professional success.





Sincerely,

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National Marketing Director
Kaplan PMBR



* NBLSA members receive $100.00 off our Comprehensive Program, $50.00 off our 6-Day Course and $50.00 off our 3 Day Course off Kaplan PMBR's retail tuition prices then in effect for the Courses, until April 18, 2008. This discount cannot be combined with any other discount or promotional offer.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on November 16, 2007, 09:19:26 AM
The New York State Board of Law Examiners announced today that the passing rate for graduates of New York's 15 law schools taking the bar examination for the first time in July 2007 was 88.2%. This is the highest passing rate in memory for graduates of New York law schools and represents a 1.5% increase over the passing rate for the same group who took the July 2006 bar examination.

Not only did this group achieve a historically high passing rate, they also surpassed the passing rate of their counterparts from American Bar Association-approved law schools outside of New York. The passing rate for graduates of such law schools who took the bar examination for the first time in New York this July was 85.7%.

The Board examined a record 10,907 candidates during two days of testing conducted on July 24-25, 2007. The passing rate for all candidates, including U.S. domestic-educated and foreign-educated candidates, first time and repeat takers, was 70.6%. Foreign-educated candidates accounted for 24% of the total group and those foreign candidates taking the New York bar examination for the first time had a passage rate of 45.6%.

Passing rates for all groups of candidates taking the July 2007 bar examination generally increased over the passing rates for July 2006, with the passing rate for graduates of New York law schools, including first-time and repeat takers, showing the largest increase. The passing rate for that group increased to 82.0%, from 78.5% one year ago.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: LBJFan on November 16, 2007, 07:37:10 PM
The name above appears on the pass list for the July 2007 California Bar Examination.

woohoo

We had to wait until 6 pm in Cali.

Congrats to my fellow c/o 2007 peoples.

Passage rate was 55% in CA I think.

Thank the Lord.



I have two motions I gotta write this weekend and like 15 witnesses to call for a trial starting on the 26th. Be careful what you wish for right ;) lol
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on November 16, 2007, 07:46:38 PM
Congrats :)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: derkaiser on November 16, 2007, 09:35:39 PM
The New York State Board of Law Examiners announced today that the passing rate for graduates of New York's 15 law schools taking the bar examination for the first time in July 2007 was 88.2%. This is the highest passing rate in memory for graduates of New York law schools and represents a 1.5% increase over the passing rate for the same group who took the July 2006 bar examination.

Not only did this group achieve a historically high passing rate, they also surpassed the passing rate of their counterparts from American Bar Association-approved law schools outside of New York. The passing rate for graduates of such law schools who took the bar examination for the first time in New York this July was 85.7%.

The Board examined a record 10,907 candidates during two days of testing conducted on July 24-25, 2007. The passing rate for all candidates, including U.S. domestic-educated and foreign-educated candidates, first time and repeat takers, was 70.6%. Foreign-educated candidates accounted for 24% of the total group and those foreign candidates taking the New York bar examination for the first time had a passage rate of 45.6%.

Passing rates for all groups of candidates taking the July 2007 bar examination generally increased over the passing rates for July 2006, with the passing rate for graduates of New York law schools, including first-time and repeat takers, showing the largest increase. The passing rate for that group increased to 82.0%, from 78.5% one year ago.

Sands,
I never posted on this thread (or if I did, I can't remember).  But I really enjoyed your chronicle of your Bar prep and examination experience.  I checked up on this thread and your posts pretty much every evening after I had finished my own studying.  Congratulations to you and the other successful examinees who frequented this thread throughout the summer.

I remember sometimes I'd read about how many MBE's you'd done in a particular day, and it would motivate me to do a few more before hanging it up.

Good luck in your career.

Derkaiser -- 2007 California Bar Admittee
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: cui bono? on November 17, 2007, 03:05:22 PM
The name above appears on the pass list for the July 2007 California Bar Examination.


Congrats!!!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: slacker on November 17, 2007, 04:50:41 PM
Sands and LBJFan...huge congrats to each of you! You deserve 'em!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on November 18, 2007, 10:00:43 AM
The New York State Board of Law Examiners announced today that the passing rate for graduates of New York's 15 law schools taking the bar examination for the first time in July 2007 was 88.2%. This is the highest passing rate in memory for graduates of New York law schools and represents a 1.5% increase over the passing rate for the same group who took the July 2006 bar examination.

Not only did this group achieve a historically high passing rate, they also surpassed the passing rate of their counterparts from American Bar Association-approved law schools outside of New York. The passing rate for graduates of such law schools who took the bar examination for the first time in New York this July was 85.7%.

The Board examined a record 10,907 candidates during two days of testing conducted on July 24-25, 2007. The passing rate for all candidates, including U.S. domestic-educated and foreign-educated candidates, first time and repeat takers, was 70.6%. Foreign-educated candidates accounted for 24% of the total group and those foreign candidates taking the New York bar examination for the first time had a passage rate of 45.6%.

Passing rates for all groups of candidates taking the July 2007 bar examination generally increased over the passing rates for July 2006, with the passing rate for graduates of New York law schools, including first-time and repeat takers, showing the largest increase. The passing rate for that group increased to 82.0%, from 78.5% one year ago.

Sands,
I never posted on this thread (or if I did, I can't remember).  But I really enjoyed your chronicle of your Bar prep and examination experience.  I checked up on this thread and your posts pretty much every evening after I had finished my own studying.  Congratulations to you and the other successful examinees who frequented this thread throughout the summer.

I remember sometimes I'd read about how many MBE's you'd done in a particular day, and it would motivate me to do a few more before hanging it up.

Good luck in your career.

Derkaiser -- 2007 California Bar Admittee


Thanks man.  Congrats to you as well.  Its interesting looking back through this thread...I was just talking with my study partner about how we were feeling going through this experience.  It was brutal, but we all made it!  It was hard to see back then but we kept plugging away at it and now here we are. 

Still doesn't feel real yet.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on November 18, 2007, 04:20:01 PM
It takes awhile for it to sink in. I still don't think it has sunk in for me yet.

The New York State Board of Law Examiners announced today that the passing rate for graduates of New York's 15 law schools taking the bar examination for the first time in July 2007 was 88.2%. This is the highest passing rate in memory for graduates of New York law schools and represents a 1.5% increase over the passing rate for the same group who took the July 2006 bar examination.

Not only did this group achieve a historically high passing rate, they also surpassed the passing rate of their counterparts from American Bar Association-approved law schools outside of New York. The passing rate for graduates of such law schools who took the bar examination for the first time in New York this July was 85.7%.

The Board examined a record 10,907 candidates during two days of testing conducted on July 24-25, 2007. The passing rate for all candidates, including U.S. domestic-educated and foreign-educated candidates, first time and repeat takers, was 70.6%. Foreign-educated candidates accounted for 24% of the total group and those foreign candidates taking the New York bar examination for the first time had a passage rate of 45.6%.

Passing rates for all groups of candidates taking the July 2007 bar examination generally increased over the passing rates for July 2006, with the passing rate for graduates of New York law schools, including first-time and repeat takers, showing the largest increase. The passing rate for that group increased to 82.0%, from 78.5% one year ago.

Sands,
I never posted on this thread (or if I did, I can't remember).  But I really enjoyed your chronicle of your Bar prep and examination experience.  I checked up on this thread and your posts pretty much every evening after I had finished my own studying.  Congratulations to you and the other successful examinees who frequented this thread throughout the summer.

I remember sometimes I'd read about how many MBE's you'd done in a particular day, and it would motivate me to do a few more before hanging it up.

Good luck in your career.

Derkaiser -- 2007 California Bar Admittee


Thanks man.  Congrats to you as well.  Its interesting looking back through this thread...I was just talking with my study partner about how we were feeling going through this experience.  It was brutal, but we all made it!  It was hard to see back then but we kept plugging away at it and now here we are. 

Still doesn't feel real yet.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on March 27, 2008, 07:23:54 AM
These bar exam and C&F forms are a female dog.  Just discovered I have to write my home state's DMV to get a copy of my driving record.  Annoying.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on March 27, 2008, 09:32:28 AM
Man you're just getting STARTED!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on March 27, 2008, 09:37:55 AM
:D
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Freak on March 27, 2008, 09:40:49 AM
Until you actually start BAR studying, you haven't started.  ::)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on March 27, 2008, 10:00:48 AM
Until you actually start BAR studying, you haven't started.  ::)

True dat.

Oh man I do not envy you cats.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on March 27, 2008, 10:02:53 AM
I'm just saying...every time I think I'm ready to send in the forms, something else pops up.  Fingerprints...enrollment verification...driving record...credit report...notarization.  Sheesh!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on March 27, 2008, 10:06:48 AM
It is a year long process of bullsh!t that messes with you every step of the way.  Like you said, if it ain't one thing its another.  And this is all just so that you can take the bar...we haven't even got to the bar yet!  That's when the real fun begins.

You're takin VA right?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on March 27, 2008, 10:08:44 AM
Yup. And I'm curious as to what these "follow-up" C&F forms entail...
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Freak on March 27, 2008, 10:22:23 AM
Goodness, the initial application only took me 1 month.

I did have one snafu because my school required disclosure of all tickets with fines exceeding $250 & I omitted one with a $252 fine...man is court supervision expensive. I had to apologize to the school and have them send a letter to the BAR accepting my apology.  ::)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on March 27, 2008, 10:36:54 AM
The NJ app took me a couple of months to get together.  They get into your life; driving record, credit report, shoe size, etc.

The NY app took about 5 minutes on the front end, but after the bar all the C&F crap they have is ridiculous.  And the affidavits you have to get from other people place you at the mercy of other folks' procrastination.  And then once you actually get the paperwork in New York is so damn backlogged they take forever to give you the damn 2-minute oath.  Put it like this, I passed the bar in July 2007 and I am STILL not admitted in the state of New York!!!  I was admitted in Jersey like 2 weeks after bar results came out.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Freak on March 27, 2008, 10:45:07 AM
Oh the pain! :P

I took the IL BAR 7/25-6/07 & was admitted 11/11/07.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on March 27, 2008, 05:14:30 PM
Put it like this, I passed the bar in July 2007 and I am STILL not admitted in the state of New York!!!  I was admitted in Jersey like 2 weeks after bar results came out.

Dang :(.  I hope VA isn't that bad.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on March 27, 2008, 06:27:52 PM
I think it's only NY (maybe Cali) that is that retarded with theirs so you should be straight.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on April 06, 2008, 08:33:51 AM
How helpful did you guys find group study?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Freak on April 07, 2008, 01:50:37 PM
For the BAR? I didn't even attempt it. It's not like the subjects are difficult to understand, they just throw a TON of information at you. Frankly, you don't have time for discussing anything.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on April 07, 2008, 04:50:01 PM
Interesting.  I'm taking the iPod course, and I might just arrange to have weekly call-ins with a few people.  Didn't know if I should try to arrange a regular study group or something.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on April 07, 2008, 05:30:28 PM
My study partner was CRUCIAL to my passing the bar.  We talked over topics all the time.  I found you need to bounce ideas off of somebody every now and again. Not all the time but every now and again you just need a quick answer to something so you can move on with life.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on April 07, 2008, 05:35:37 PM
Agreed.

My study partner was CRUCIAL to my passing the bar.  We talked over topics all the time.  I found you need to bounce ideas off of somebody every now and again. Not all the time but every now and again you just need a quick answer to something so you can move on with life.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on April 07, 2008, 08:35:29 PM
Cool so it seems like weekly/random phone calls to my favorite law school study partner should suffice.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Freak on April 08, 2008, 01:37:32 PM
Cool so it seems like weekly/random phone calls to my favorite law school study partner should suffice.

I did this for pressure release, but nothing regular or prolonged. Apparently others have different experiences.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on April 08, 2008, 03:03:01 PM
Yeah as long as you can talk to somebody you're good. They don't have to physically be there.

We did one group event and I bailed out of it about half way through because I didn't feel it was a beneficial use of my time after a while.  It was at first, but after a while it because a "too many chefs" type situation.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on April 08, 2008, 03:05:07 PM
Yeah as long as you can talk to somebody you're good. They don't have to physically be there.

We did one group event and I bailed out of it about half way through because I didn't feel it was a beneficial use of my time after a while.  It was at first, but after a while it because a "too many chefs" type situation.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on April 14, 2008, 07:52:03 PM
Got my first shipment of barbri books today!  I'm actually kinda excited.  I think I'm going to go flip through them.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on April 14, 2008, 08:19:34 PM
Hmmm these books are like big Emmanuels.  The MBE looks straightforward enough...typical first-year stuff.  But the VA stuff...riiiight...suretyship?? wtf is that??
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on April 15, 2008, 09:20:50 AM
The only two books you NEED out of that whole box of crap are the yellow book which has the sample essays in it from past years, and the "Convisor" book.  Never even cracked the rest of those open at all.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on April 15, 2008, 11:53:29 AM
Dood you read my mind!  I was going to ask about that last night, but figured 3 posts in a row would be excessive even for me, lol.  For the MPRE, I only used the Convisor outline, and the one they included for the barbri stuff looks pretty comprehensive.  Doubt I will remember all of the other details anyway.  Like other commercial outlines, the non-"nutshell" stuff seems useful only if there is some point that's nagging you.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on April 15, 2008, 12:07:30 PM
The bar exam is the ultimate test of the one skill that law school hopefully has taught you over 3 years - Achieve your goals with as LITTLE work as humanly possible.


Unforunately for you, the goal this time is pretty high so "LITTLE work" actually = working your ass off in this case, but even with that being the case, there are many many many corners you can cut looking back on it, and about 90% of them exist within BarBri.

Towards July I just stopped going to BarBri altogether.  My time was better spent memorizing NY distinctions or the CPLR, etc.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Freak on April 15, 2008, 09:20:35 PM
I did start with the long outlines - but whoa - no way I had time to read all that, actually I didn't even read all of Convisor towards the end. I spent 60-70hrs/wk studying as it was. I did learn from the lectures and only skipped 2-3.

I wrote 4-500 flash cards (can't remember exactly, I gave them to a classmate) + 5-6 outlines using Convisor & lecture notes. I liked the flash cards because I wrote many of them during lecture breaks or even in the lectures, if they slowed down enough. I had different colors for different topics. If I think about it, I'll bet I can still name the colors for each topic. Green Equity:  ::)

The only topic I really struggled with was secured transactions - liens and such. Fortunately they omitted it on the exam. Unfortunately, it looks like my 2nd appeal will deal with it.  :-\
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on April 15, 2008, 09:23:23 PM
Going back through this thread, it seems that you guys did tons of MBE questions.  Do these come with barbri, or only with PMBR?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: jd06 on April 16, 2008, 09:26:10 AM
A. The Barbri "package" includes MBE's - they'll have you do MBE's for each module where applicable and do a one-day simulation exam - but I think even Barbri would concede the MBE's are not their forte, whereas PMBR is all about the MBE's.  I found that the PMBR questions mirrored the bar exam much more closely (July '06) than the Barbri questions and that the PMBR tips and strategies were much more helpful.  Quite frankly, many of the exam questions I saw were almost word for word PMBR but my understanding is that may have since changed as Kaplan bought out the PMBR character who was "misappropriating" bar exam questions.  Best of luck to you!   8)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Freak on April 16, 2008, 09:34:18 AM
I did over 1000 MBEs thru BarBri & didn't take PMBR
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on April 16, 2008, 10:26:42 AM
Excellent, so barbri includes a bunch.  I'm skipping PMBR because I'm having to front these bar expenses and it doesn't seem to be necessary.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on April 16, 2008, 11:14:55 AM
A. The Barbri "package" includes MBE's - they'll have you do MBE's for each module where applicable and do a one-day simulation exam - but I think even Barbri would concede the MBE's are not their forte, whereas PMBR is all about the MBE's.  I found that the PMBR questions mirrored the bar exam much more closely (July '06) than the Barbri questions and that the PMBR tips and strategies were much more helpful.  Quite frankly, many of the exam questions I saw were almost word for word PMBR but my understanding is that may have since changed as Kaplan bought out the PMBR character who was "misappropriating" bar exam questions.  Best of luck to you!   8)

TITCR

Don't be too quick to axe PMBR.  Doing all of their MBE questions is a large part of why I was able to miss an entire essay question and still pass the NY bar.

Since ol' boy (PMBR president/founder) got busted trying to smuggle MBE questions out of the Alaska Bar exam, the NCBE has changed up the wording of the questions, so neither PMBR or BarBri will have the word-for-word MBE questions anymore. HOWEVER (and this is a big however) the BarBri MBE questions were not even close to the real thing.  If we had relied solely on BarBri for the MBE we would have been in bad shape on the actual exam. 

Even though the PMBR questions are not word-for-word anymore, it doesn't matter; their MBE tactics that they teach you are what is most important.  Especially the blue book.  You need to not only understand why the correct answer is correct, but you also need to understand why the wrong answers are incorrect as well.  Both are necessary.

Because of that, when I got onto the actual bar exam last summer (which anybody who took it will tell you NONE of those 200 questions on the MBE were word-for-word replicas of what we saw in any of our practice materials) I was still able to apply the "this is clearly wrong because..." and "this is most likely the correct answer because" logic from the practice problems in PMBR.

BarBri did not have that same ability because their questions just weren't the type of questions that you will see on the MBE.  Its hard to describe...its like the BarBri questions were about the 6 subjects, sure, but within each subject there are certain areas that the MBE focuses on - for example - you can be guaranteed there will be a stupid common law burglary question in the crim section, or a mortgage question in the property section, etc. But BarBri never really quite addressed the more common questions...at least not in the way they customarily appeared on the real bar exam.  I dunno if I'm explaining that clearly.  Its hard to describe until you jump into the questions.  By the end of the summer both my study partner and I had completed about 3,000 MBE questions individually.  I guess the best way to put it is that the BarBri MBE questions just had a different "feel" to them.  Like you could get them all right or all wrong and it wouldn't make any difference in your real MBE score.




Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on April 16, 2008, 01:56:40 PM
Interesting.  Would you say the PMBR classes themselves were useful?  Because I was just going to share my FI's PMBR books for the practice questions and such.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on April 16, 2008, 02:09:51 PM
Interesting.  Would you say the PMBR classes themselves were useful?  Because I was just going to share my FI's PMBR books for the practice questions and such.

No the classes are unecessary.   The books are all you need.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on April 17, 2008, 07:13:49 PM
Excellent.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: pikey on April 17, 2008, 07:53:12 PM
So I have PMBR Multistate Workbooks.  Could (should) I use them to study for my doctrinal classes?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on April 21, 2008, 01:54:08 PM
So I have PMBR Multistate Workbooks.  Could (should) I use them to study for my doctrinal classes?

Doctrinal classes? You got me on that one.  I have no idea.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on April 29, 2008, 01:45:09 PM
#29 Passing the BAR
April 18th, 2008 · 100 Comments

There appears to be several lawyers who read this blog, so I’m sure they’ll really appreciate this post. It is also a self-congratulatory message for myself. If some of you don’t like, I don’t care if you complain or allege the post is weak.

For those EBP who manage to survive law school, graduation comes with feelings of mixed emotions. Of course they are happy to be done with the 3 year ass whipping that is law school, but are also dreading the preparation to study for the Bar exam.

During the time when an EBP is studying for the Bar, they will not be visible to their social circle, unless it consists of other EBP studying for the Bar. Many of you may not even know your EBP friend is studying for the Bar. There is good reason for this. An EBP will not tell many people that he/she is studying for the Bar, because the next thing out of the other person’s mouth will be, “When are the results coming out?” I hated that question. It’s like saying, “Let me know, so I can talk about you behind your back if you fail.”

In contrast, once an EBP has passed the Bar, all hell breaks out. Everybody in the world will know. It will be in theie status on Facebook, AIM or whatever instant message program they use. If you know an EBP who took the Bar and passed, you will probably be part of a mass text message informing you of their passing. The pastor will announce it in church and their parents will call every relative they hate or never talked to, to rub it in their faces.

The pressure will now be on for the new attorney to wear business attire everyday and distribute business cards to every person they meet. Don’t talk about them though, they deserve to relish in the glory for a while. However, if they’re still doing a little too much after a month or so, tell them to give it a rest.


http://www.stuffebplike.com/?p=163
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on April 29, 2008, 04:08:38 PM
Credited.   :D

I have mad friends who did not tell me they took February for that very reason.  Just too scared to face the music if the worse happens.  :P

I will say this though, there's no feeling like passing that damn thing after you put in all that work.  No feeling like it.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: smujd2007 on May 02, 2008, 06:15:16 PM
This is so true. 
That church announcements part is funny. Now imagine being the first lady of a church and passing the bar--they had a party for me and everything! However, it is a major accomplishment.

#29 Passing the BAR
April 18th, 2008 · 100 Comments

There appears to be several lawyers who read this blog, so I’m sure they’ll really appreciate this post. It is also a self-congratulatory message for myself. If some of you don’t like, I don’t care if you complain or allege the post is weak.

For those EBP who manage to survive law school, graduation comes with feelings of mixed emotions. Of course they are happy to be done with the 3 year ass whipping that is law school, but are also dreading the preparation to study for the Bar exam.

During the time when an EBP is studying for the Bar, they will not be visible to their social circle, unless it consists of other EBP studying for the Bar. Many of you may not even know your EBP friend is studying for the Bar. There is good reason for this. An EBP will not tell many people that he/she is studying for the Bar, because the next thing out of the other person’s mouth will be, “When are the results coming out?” I hated that question. It’s like saying, “Let me know, so I can talk about you behind your back if you fail.”

In contrast, once an EBP has passed the Bar, all hell breaks out. Everybody in the world will know. It will be in theie status on Facebook, AIM or whatever instant message program they use. If you know an EBP who took the Bar and passed, you will probably be part of a mass text message informing you of their passing. The pastor will announce it in church and their parents will call every relative they hate or never talked to, to rub it in their faces.

The pressure will now be on for the new attorney to wear business attire everyday and distribute business cards to every person they meet. Don’t talk about them though, they deserve to relish in the glory for a while. However, if they’re still doing a little too much after a month or so, tell them to give it a rest.


http://www.stuffebplike.com/?p=163
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 02, 2008, 09:05:06 PM
Lol did you see this comment:

“The pastor will announce it in church”
My pastor did this exact thing saying….”We got a LAWYER FOR THE LORD.”

I guess I cant be evil huh?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 04, 2008, 10:10:38 AM
Everybody I know treated it like a big deal except for my firm.  They were just like, eh...that's nice...here file this motion by 2pm.

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 04, 2008, 10:34:56 AM
Lol although I guess that's better than, "WHAT?? YOU FAILED! Your ass had better start studying for the February one.  Right now."
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Freak on May 05, 2008, 02:12:01 PM
Everybody I know treated it like a big deal except for my firm.  They were just like, eh...that's nice...here file this motion by 2pm.



At least my boss gave me a big smile & thumbs up - before telling me to file the motion... :-\
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 05, 2008, 03:34:12 PM
Everybody I know treated it like a big deal except for my firm.  They were just like, eh...that's nice...here file this motion by 2pm.



At least my boss gave me a big smile & thumbs up - before telling me to file the motion... :-\


LOL   :D
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 22, 2008, 05:28:10 PM
Already a day behind on my barbri-provided self-study schedule, I crack open the books...
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 22, 2008, 07:16:49 PM
Ha, until today, I never knew the difference between assault and battery...
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: pikey on May 22, 2008, 07:18:31 PM
Ha, until today, I never knew the difference between assault and battery...

Really???  What are they teaching you up there?  :P
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 22, 2008, 07:20:19 PM
Lol YLS intentionally neglects intentional torts.  You learned them?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Astro on May 22, 2008, 07:30:55 PM
Ha, until today, I never knew the difference between assault and battery...


See how you didn't need to know it, and when you did, you could just look it up in a supplement?


f-ing useless law school.  @#!*.  haha
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: pikey on May 22, 2008, 07:32:43 PM
Not all.  We spent most of the semester on negligence, but touched on a few other torts such as as/bat, iied, nied, etc.  I just got my torts grade last week (super fast!) and it was my best so far, so I love torts!  :)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 22, 2008, 07:36:00 PM
Ha, until today, I never knew the difference between assault and battery...


See how you didn't need to know it, and when you did, you could just look it up in a supplement?


f-ing useless law school.  @#!*.  haha


Lol exactly.

Lol YLS intentionally neglects intentional torts.  You learned them?

we covered these at my school.

prof: "an intentional tort is when one guy punches another guy in the face.  moving on..."

Yeah that was the extent of our coverage too.  Guido walked up and pretended to kick someone: "That's a tort!"

Not all.  We spent most of the semester on negligence, but touched on a few other torts such as as/bat, iied, nied, etc.  I just got my torts grade last week (super fast!) and it was my best so far, so I love torts!  :)

lol congrats.  But yeah, we didn't cover any of that.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: pikey on May 22, 2008, 07:38:48 PM
Thanks.  What did you cover?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on May 22, 2008, 07:40:24 PM
negligence

...and the economics of torts
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on May 22, 2008, 08:43:22 PM
Lol YLS intentionally neglects intentional torts.  You learned them?

we covered these at my school.


prof: "an intentional tort is when one guy punches another guy in the face.  moving on..."
I didn't cover intentional torts...
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on May 22, 2008, 11:14:18 PM
Lol YLS intentionally neglects intentional torts.  You learned them?

we covered these at my school.


prof: "an intentional tort is when one guy punches another guy in the face.  moving on..."

I didn't cover intentional torts...

that was kind of my point.  did you see my recap for that part of the syllabus?  it's on the next line!  :(

sowee...must have skipped over it :(
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: TruOne on May 23, 2008, 07:02:50 AM
Ha, until today, I never knew the difference between assault and battery...


See how you didn't need to know it, and when you did, you could just look it up in a supplement?


f-ing useless law school.  @#!*.  haha



SHhhhh! Don't say that, or else you'll crush the dreams of all the OL's that believe Law School will actually teach them the law!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: pikey on May 23, 2008, 10:40:38 AM
We were my torts prof's first class, so I dunno if that's typical or not. I wonder what the other sections learn (Gengis?).
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 27, 2008, 09:00:56 AM
Ha, until today, I never knew the difference between assault and battery...

Really???  What are they teaching you up there?  :P

LOL  :D
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 27, 2008, 09:01:18 AM
Ha, until today, I never knew the difference between assault and battery...


See how you didn't need to know it, and when you did, you could just look it up in a supplement?


f-ing useless law school.  @#!*.  haha



Amen!   :D
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 01, 2008, 08:23:32 AM
"Nondeadly force may be used to resist an improper arrest even if a known officer is making that arrest."*

*Alci footnote: yeah right, try this if you're black and see what happens...
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 01, 2008, 09:44:53 PM
What I realized today: This procedural stuff I've been reading isn't for the MBE.  It's for the essays, and they're going to be a female dog...I have to memorize within how many days one can file an answer, motion, etc.?  And I have to know the minimum and maximum sentences and fines for 10 different classes of crimes?  Sheesh...talk about stuff you can just look up...

Did you guys find flashcards helpful?  Did you make them yourselves, or did you use commercial ones?  I've never really liked/used them, but this seems like it might be the perfect time to start...
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 02, 2008, 12:21:42 PM
"Nondeadly force may be used to resist an improper arrest even if a known officer is making that arrest."*

*Alci footnote: yeah right, try this if you're black and see what happens...

I remember that rule from last year, and I remember thinking the same thing.  I'd like to see this rule work ANYWHERE in real life.  Please. :D
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 02, 2008, 12:29:50 PM
What I realized today: This procedural stuff I've been reading isn't for the MBE.  It's for the essays, and they're going to be a female dog...I have to memorize within how many days one can file an answer, motion, etc.?  And I have to know the minimum and maximum sentences and fines for 10 different classes of crimes?  Sheesh...talk about stuff you can just look up...

Did you guys find flashcards helpful?  Did you make them yourselves, or did you use commercial ones?  I've never really liked/used them, but this seems like it might be the perfect time to start...

Good question.  I have never been the flashcard student, so I didn't start on the bar exam.  I just made lists (and posters!) since that seemed to work for me.  My study partner was a flashcards person.  We both bought big sheets of paper and put "posters" up on the wall of crap like that.  After seeing it every day up on the wall it started to sink in I guess.  The bar taught me that I am a visual learner.  I can still remember getting to a Crim Law question on the actual bar exam and in my head I could picture our Crim Law poster hanging on the wall by the door with the answer on it that I needed for the question.  Weird huh? 

Bottom line, whatever works, man. 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 02, 2008, 12:39:05 PM
Yeah I'm the same way...I always picture the page from which I memorized.  I think I'll do lists too...flashcards just seem like too much work.  But maybe I'll take a peek at someone else's, though, to see if I like them.  Now posters...that's an interesting idea.  hmmm
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Freak on June 04, 2008, 09:16:51 AM
I made flash cards ~ 1000 and pretty much memorized them. During Barbri lectures, I wrote the topic on one side of the card and filled in the back (definition) during breaks. I then supplemented them at home and would add cards as needed. (I had cards #1a-1f etc. b/c of supplements I believe).

eh, whatever works.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: EarlCat on June 04, 2008, 09:55:08 AM
tag
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 07, 2008, 09:09:56 AM
Fenster lived with his wife and three children.  Fenster had an erratic temper and a drinking problem, and sometimes beat his wife and children.  Three days after a particularly savage beating of his 17-year-old son, Samson, Fenster came home late from work in a drunken state.  Fenster's wife was not home, and Samson was taking care of his younger siblings.  Fenster asked where his dinner was, knowing that his wife usually left him a plate of food if he missed the family meal.  Samson told Fenster that he had given it to the dog.  Angered by his son's statement, Fenster said, "I'll teach you to have some respect for your father," but feeling a little unsteady, he added, "after a little nap."  Fenster then collapsed on the couch.  Samson knew that there would be trouble when his father came to, and so he took the children to a next-door neighbor's house, asking the neighbor to keep them for a while.  Samson returned home and looked for his father's handgun but could not find it.  After looking for a while, he got a large knife from the kitchen drawer, and waited near the couch for his father to awaken.  When Fenster awoke a short time later, he saw his son holding the knife.  Worried, he asked, "Samson? Son?" Samson replied, "You won't hurt us anymore," and jabbed the knife into his father's chest.  Fenster died instantly.  Samson is brought to trial as an adult.  The jurisdiction generally follows the common law definitions of crimes.

The court is most likely to find that:

A. Samson is guilty of murder, because he intended to kill Fenster.
B. Samson is guilty of voluntary manslaughter, because Fenster provoked him.
C. Samson is guilty of voluntary manslaughter, because his beatings by his father constituted a continuing provocation.
D. Samson was justified in killing Fenster, because he acted in self-defense.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: pikey on June 07, 2008, 09:11:55 PM
A, since there was no immediate threat.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on June 07, 2008, 10:11:52 PM
A, since there was no immediate threat.

i was thinking A...but then i remember this case where a wife got VM even though she killed her hubby while he was sleeping.

i dunno really...
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Gengiswump on June 08, 2008, 02:50:06 PM
A, since I doubt the kid's gonna get to use Battered Wife/Woman Syndrome* or something analogous as a provocation (actually, I'd call this, in this instance, justification) defense.  Now, if he'd waited for Dad to just get up . . .


*Not to mention the startling irregularity with which BWS works for BW - courts actually aren't that sympathetic.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on June 08, 2008, 03:39:56 PM


*Not to mention the startling irregularity with which BWS works for BW - courts actually aren't that sympathetic.

I definitely noticed this too..it's a real wtf theory because of it's inconsistent usage.  I still don't understand when it can be be used most efficiently.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 08, 2008, 09:22:03 PM
A is indeed correct.  The question is whether or not there was adequate provocation at the time of the killing.  All signs point toward Samson having had sufficient time to "cool off," and his actions were certainly planned and deliberate.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: t L on June 08, 2008, 10:08:46 PM
I picked C.  I'm going to fail the bar.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Gengiswump on June 08, 2008, 11:30:30 PM
Ummm, everyone who answered the question in thread has already taken Crim.  I wouldn't exactly be concerned. ;)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: goaliechica on June 08, 2008, 11:47:10 PM
A, since I doubt the kid's gonna get to use Battered Wife/Woman Syndrome* or something analogous as a provocation (actually, I'd call this, in this instance, justification) defense.  Now, if he'd waited for Dad to just get up . . .


*Not to mention the startling irregularity with which BWS works for BW - courts actually aren't that sympathetic.

I agree.

And tag.

::waits impatiently for crim grade::
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 10, 2008, 11:19:33 AM
I picked C.  I'm going to fail the bar.

Have no fear.  By the time the bar rolls around you will have actually studied the law.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 17, 2008, 01:56:49 PM
So I think I'm going to put practice drills and essays on hiatus until I know the elements and (for the essays) buzzwords cold.  This seems to be the key to (a) figuring out what distinction makes one answer correct from the two you've narrowed it down to, and (b) getting all of the points on the essays (CRAC is simple enough to apply...but you need to know the "R").
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 18, 2008, 12:57:32 PM
So I think I'm going to put practice drills and essays on hiatus until I know the elements and (for the essays) buzzwords cold.  This seems to be the key to (a) figuring out what distinction makes one answer correct from the two you've narrowed it down to, and (b) getting all of the points on the essays (CRAC is simple enough to apply...but you need to know the "R").

Its mid June so do whatever you feel you need to get situated for July, b/c when July comes it becomes a mad dash.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Freak on June 19, 2008, 03:28:06 PM
Unless you're like me and studied 9hrs/day, 7days/wk w/o stop for 5 weeks, burnt out the 6th week, and totally didn't study 3 days out of the last 7. Of course, I passed so w/e.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 14, 2008, 08:17:21 AM
Something forwarded to me that you bar takers will appreciate:


> Alright, having just had my ass rocked by the friggen simulated MBE (despite scoring outrageously high on all the practice sets, I might add!), I thought I'd come up with a little list of things that are pissing me off about this Barbri bull.  I am sick to death of the following things in the fact patterns:

> 1. People who don't record their deeds:

> Hey.  @#!* face.  That's a nice deed you got there.  Went ahead and bought Stankacre, didya?  That's awesome.  Owning property is a sign of real maturity.  Now, why don't you do us all a f-ing favor, and go record the f-ing deed.

> Right. f-ing. Now.

> Don't put it in a goddamn drawer.  Don't go off to India for 20 years.  Don't leave the deed in your will for dear cousin Victorianox.

> Get your fat lazy ass down to the records office, and record it before I burn your goddamn house down.

> 2:  Wily property sellers:

> Here is a suggestion to those Bill of Rights violatin' petty thug ass clowns, the Police.  How about you go down to Doucheacre, and arrest the son of a female dog who sells the same house to 15 different people, over and over.  Im sick of this guy getting away every time he pulls this *&^%, and I'm left to sort out the f-ing pieces.

> 3: "Known" arsonists

> Here's a little tip to all the cretins that keep hiring "known" arsonists to burn down their cheating girlfriend's house.  Why is it, do you think, that he is a known arsonist, you dipshit.  He's known because he has been f-ing caught before.  You don't know who the good arsonists are, do you!  Because they have their *&^% together.

> But no, you had to go hire Dusseldorf, or Durango, or whatever D word your fuckwit moron arsonist is named, and now he's gone and burned the wrong house, and left me with a BAR question.

> 4: People who back out of conspiracies

> Why don't you just stick with it and save us all some trouble, you female private part.

> 5.  Power companies that leave an electric wire live to deter copper theft

> While I appreciate your effort to rid the world of thieves stupid enough to try and steal raw copper wiring that's f-ing humming and has blue arcs dancing on it, it's just gonna bite you in the ass in the end.  Just let the copper go you cheap fucks.

> 6. Fertile Octogenarians

> I think I speak for all of us when I say........Burn the witch!

> Burn her!

> And don't use a "known" arsonist!

> 7.  People who use anything more complicated than Fee Simple Absolute in a will

> Hey, old man.  Either give Horatio your f-ing interest in Scroteacre, or don't, alright?  Don't condition it on him growing a mustache, or learning to play the calliope, or winning "Dancing with the Stars."  Don't grant a springing executive interest to Zenobia if she manages to graduate from Ninja academy.

> Stop making my life more complicated than it needs to be, you Narcissistic old twat, and stop trying to control your property from the grave in a vain attempt to make up for your feebleness in life.

> 8.  House Painters

> Just paint the f-ing house yourself, Paulson.

> Trust me on this one.  It's not worth it.

> 9.  Bank Mortgages

> Hi there, First National Bank of South Calizonachussettsas.  I don't mean to tell you how to run your business, but allow me to impart a bit of sage wisdom.

> When someone :

> 1)    named Defaultina McBankrupstein,

> 2)    is taking out her 17th mortgage with you,

> 3)    on a place called Mushacre

> 4)    so she can buy a new hat,

> ?.do NOT f-ing come crying to me when the inevitable judicial foreclosure sale nets $34, a button, and some lint, all of which are devoured by the banks that are 20 miles ahead of you in creditor line.

> And do not ask me whether you are a junior or senior mortgagor, or whether you debt is secured, or some other bull I don't understand, because the answer is always the same.

> D)  You are screwed.   Take it like a man.

> 10.  Wanna-be Burglars

> I am sick to death of these slackjawed melon-heads deciding at 2 a.m. that they need to borrow their neighbors wrench, and are sure he "won't mind" if they saunter on over there in the middle of the night, crowbar the garage open, smash open his tool chest, and "borrow it."  And then always the inevitable f-ing:

> Did he commit Larceny/Burglary/Robbery??????  Ohhhhh, no intent!

> Let him go, boys.  Let the man go.

> So I can throw the wrench right at his goddamn teeth.

> Good thing when we are really in practice we will have these Intent Goggles (c), that can magically tell us, despite every bit of evidence to the contrary, this jackass really didn't intend to commit a crime. He genuinely thought that breaking into your neighbor's house, stealing his car, taking a *&^% on his pool table, and sleeping with his wife were all part of the social covenants between good neighbors.

>

> Alright.  Anyway.  Needed to get that off my chest.  Cheers,

>

>  - Roberto
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 14, 2008, 08:26:19 AM
:D
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 28, 2008, 09:36:42 AM
Good luck to everybody taking the Bar tomorrow.  I'm sure you'll do us proud.

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on July 29, 2008, 09:46:59 AM
YAY for soon-to-be lawyers. Good luck.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 30, 2008, 09:31:59 AM
So one of my homegirls is taking the NY bar exam as we speak, told me yesterday that when she came back from the lunch break there was one student with his head laid down on his desk napping hard.  The exam starts, this guy is still napping.

She looks over halfway through - still napping.

The gets up to leave just before they call time, this guy is STILL NAPPING!  The proctors never even so much as touched the guy.  They gathered around him at one point, but nobody nudged him to say "hey, guy, you know there's a bar exam going on right now right?"

Wow.  Just wow.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on July 30, 2008, 10:07:02 AM
So one of my homegirls is taking the NY bar exam as we speak, told me yesterday that when she came back from the lunch break there was one student with his head laid down on his desk napping hard.  The exam starts, this guy is still napping.

She looks over halfway through - still napping.

The gets up to leave just before they call time, this guy is STILL NAPPING!  The proctors never even so much as touched the guy.  They gathered around him at one point, but nobody nudged him to say "hey, guy, you know there's a bar exam going on right now right?"

Wow.  Just wow.

Seems crazy. Maybe the guy was sick. I can't believe they didn't check on him.

As someone who passes out relatively frequently (low blood sugar), I don't find stories like this comforting!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 30, 2008, 12:55:24 PM
So one of my homegirls is taking the NY bar exam as we speak, told me yesterday that when she came back from the lunch break there was one student with his head laid down on his desk napping hard.  The exam starts, this guy is still napping.

She looks over halfway through - still napping.

The gets up to leave just before they call time, this guy is STILL NAPPING!  The proctors never even so much as touched the guy.  They gathered around him at one point, but nobody nudged him to say "hey, guy, you know there's a bar exam going on right now right?"

Wow.  Just wow.

Seems crazy. Maybe the guy was sick. I can't believe they didn't check on him.

As someone who passes out relatively frequently (low blood sugar), I don't find stories like this comforting!

Yeah that's crazy. I'd be madder than two mafuckas.  But then again, I can't sleep when I know that I have to get up for something serious.  My body won't let me - I'll keep waking up every 5 minutes for no reason. 

The night before the bar exam I threw in a movie and tried to relax b/c I usually fall asleep to the TV being on.  No chance!  Stayed up through the whole damn thing like a kid on Christmas Eve.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on July 30, 2008, 12:59:21 PM
So one of my homegirls is taking the NY bar exam as we speak, told me yesterday that when she came back from the lunch break there was one student with his head laid down on his desk napping hard.  The exam starts, this guy is still napping.

She looks over halfway through - still napping.

The gets up to leave just before they call time, this guy is STILL NAPPING!  The proctors never even so much as touched the guy.  They gathered around him at one point, but nobody nudged him to say "hey, guy, you know there's a bar exam going on right now right?"

Wow.  Just wow.

Seems crazy. Maybe the guy was sick. I can't believe they didn't check on him.

As someone who passes out relatively frequently (low blood sugar), I don't find stories like this comforting!

Yeah that's crazy. I'd be madder than two mafuckas.  But then again, I can't sleep when I know that I have to get up for something serious.  My body won't let me - I'll keep waking up every 5 minutes for no reason. 

The night before the bar exam I threw in a movie and tried to relax b/c I usually fall asleep to the TV being on.  No chance!  Stayed up through the whole damn thing like a kid on Christmas Eve.

Right, which is what makes me think there may have been something wrong with this dude.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 30, 2008, 10:48:53 PM
Thanks for the well wishes.  Glad this *&^% is over.  Full report tomorrow. (but can you guys believe the earthquake during the CA exam??  My stories won't be nearly as good!  http://abovethelaw.com/2008/07/breaking_earthquake_hits_calif.php)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 31, 2008, 08:40:56 AM
Alci's overview of the July 2008 (non-NY) Bar Exam:

Day 1: Essays

They told us to arrive by 8 a.m.  I got there at 7 a.m., then went across the street to grab breakfast and watch people stream in.  Went back to my car around 7:30 and looked over notes.  Lined up around 7:50, and they let us in at 8 a.m.

8-9 a.m.: Set up my computer, made sure the software worked, wished people good luck, milled about

9 a.m.: the exam starts.  But it takes them a good 45 mins to read all of the instructions to us and for them to get everyone’s computers up and running so we could all start at the same time.  They had an army of tech support people, so they were able to resolve all of the issues.  Still, there were over 1200 people in the room, and some bar examines are surprisingly computer illiterate, so it took a while.  I do wonder if anyone ended up having to hand write, since that was the fallback option if your computer didn’t work/stopped working.

9:45-12:45: wrote essays.  They tested ish that hasn’t been tested in years.  But I never put much faith in those testing frequency charts.  Everything thing is game, so I studied everything.  I think I said something competent for each essay.

12:45-2: lunch.  We had to turn in our USB drives before we could go to lunch, so that cut lunch time by about 15 mins.  I used some of my westlaw points (all of them, actually, since I basically only use Lexis) to buy a cooler.  Wise investment.  I went to Subway the night before to get a sandwich, which I kept in my cooler in the trunk of my car.  Other people were scrambling to find stuff to eat.  Interestingly, a lot of the in-state law schools had lunch areas set up for their students.  I was almost jealous.  I also reviewed some notes of the subjects that are always tested, but hadn’t come up in the morning session.

2 p.m.: same long instructions and same problems with people getting set up.

2:45-5:45: more essays.  I really could not imagine handwriting all of these.  One had 7 parts, and we only had 36 mins to answer it.

5:45: turn in USB drives and pack up

6 p.m.: done.  Finally.

That night, I went out with some of my classmates and coworkers from the prior summer to celebrate being halfway done.  Some people went back to their hotels and crammed some more for the MBE.  I didn’t think that would do me any good at that point, and in retrospect, it wouldn’t have.  That said, before I went to sleep, I did look over my attack line and the CMR charts listing the elements of offenses and torts.

Day 2: MBE

We had to be at the testing center by 8:30.  At this point, I was over the whole arriving early thing.  My hotel had free breakfast, so I got a waffle and looked over my MBE attack outline.  Got to the testing center around 8:15.

9 a.m.: they read the instructions and we filled out the scantrons.  The instructions for the MBE were the first time that I’ve ever found such instructions useful, so I’d recommend reading them.  For instance, they said to assume pure comparative negligence.  Maybe I missed the part in BarBri where they said to do so, but I’m glad I read the instructions and found out before the exam.  There was a question that assumed knowledge of that very fact.

The proctor’s microphone died toward the end of the instructions.  He tried yelling.  That obviously didn’t work in a room big enough to seat 1200 people.  I thought they would just yell “begin!”...but they didn’t, and we had to wait for them to fix the microphone.

9:30: start the morning session.  This mofo was tricky.  Some were straight gimmes.  Others used terms I’d never seen in the practice questions.  Others were toss-ups in terms of the right answer.  I made educated guesses and moved on.

12:30-2 p.m.: lunch.  Same deal as the previous day.  The break was too long and I wanted to get this ish over.

2 p.m.: same instructions and forms

2:20-5:20: they finally got their ish together and we started fairly quickly.  The afternoon session was much less tricky, though still required some educated guessing.  Property was a female dog.  Lots of parole evidence.  But people just wanted to be done.  They started getting up and leaving with an hour left in the exam.  I’m never one to leave an exam early, though, so I went back and looked over my answers.

5:20: Done!  And everyone races to throw their answers in the tubs and leave.

That night, went out for a quick celebratory dinner and drink (yes, unfortunately singular), then drove home (leaving for home/vacation tomorrow, so I needed to get back).

Overall, it was about what I expected.  No huge surprises.  No good stories about earthquakes, people throwing up next to me, going crazy, etc.  Just some amusing faces as people read questions.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 31, 2008, 08:41:52 AM
General advice that should hold even if I don’t pass:

Studying

I actually liked the BarBri method.  It’s nice and structured, and they tell you what to do every day.  If I hadn’t liked it, then I would have abandoned it for something else.  One thing I didn’t do is outline each day’s lecture after class.  I still think that would have been a waste of time.  But I did make extensive charts for Ks and Civ Pro, and attack outlines for the other subjects.  But I made the attack outline after the review session for the simulated MBE (second week of July).  By then, you’ll know what your problem areas are.  Because I like efficiency, I don’t believe in making outlines of stuff I already know well.

I also thought the BarBri lectures and questions alone were enough to prepare me for the MBE and its format.  I had access to PMBR questions and did a few.  Overall, I thought they were poorly written, and their explanations seriously sucked in comparison to BarBri.  But this is a personal call.  Some people swear by PMBR and used only their practice problems.  I guess if I fail, I’ll learn some more “fine-line distinctions” (although I found that toward the end of July, I had learned so many distinctions that I was having trouble seeing the forest for the trees.  But at some point, you have to recognize that the majority of questions aren’t testing super-fine distinctions, and govern yourself accordingly.)

I also did most of my practice online, using the StudySmart software.  This allows you to see how you’re doing compared to other people (although it’s rather skewed toward the gunners at the beginning).  You can see the explanations for each question you got wrong.  You can choose to design tests that consist entirely of questions you previously missed or marked to review (I did this a lot toward the end).  The downside is that the real exam is on paper, and you can’t make markings on your computer (well I guess you could if you have a tablet).  But that didn’t really bother me, and I did 2 full-day exams, a half-day exam, and the mixed review problems in the BarBri book, so that was enough practice with the paper format for me.  It’s not like I hadn’t taken an exam on scantrons before.

Oh, and I only cracked open the non-CMR outlines twice...and that was just to clarify a few distinctions.  CMR is your friend.  Especially the charts (and the outlines if your state, like mine, has them).

Regarding subject frequency: like I said, I don’t put much faith in them.  Sure, they’re useful to see what’s tested every single year.  Definitely know those subject really well.  But just because, e.g., commercial paper hasn’t been tested in the past decade doesn’t mean it won’t be tested this time.  Study it.  Be able to say something coherent.  By the end of July, I was by no means a tax guru (our least-tested subject), but I could say a thing or two about basis, gross income, etc. (and surprise, surprise, one of the essays had a tax subpart).

Overall, my study schedule was something like:

9-12: lectures/internet
12-1: lunch
1-2: mess around
2-4: practice subject-specific MBE questions and review
4-5: general review/mess around on the internet
5-5:30: nap (I was careful not to set my nap time during what I thought would be potential test-taking time)
5:30-7:30: practice essays
7:30-9: dinner/Law & Order
9-11: general review
11-12: mess around
12:15: bed

As I got closer to the bar, there was a bit less internet and more general review, but I don’t believe in stressing out and overworking myself.

The Bar

Not much really to add here, except a word about timing:  I’m generally a fast reader, so I set myself to do 18 questions per 20-25 mins on the MBE, even though we technically had 1.8 mins per question (1 minute and 48 secs.).  So after each section, I would have at least 30-35 mins (50 mins in the afternoon session, it turned out) left.  The key to this approach, however, is recognizing when to move on.  Don’t spend 3-4 mins mulling a problem.  Just narrow it down and go with your gut, then star it and come back during the time that’s left.  Underlining is also good, because sometimes they will ask questions about a third party suing when most of the problem involves other people.  So yeah, reading comprehension is key.

I did the same thing for the essays.  In my state, there are 9 essays, and we have 36 mins for each one.  I gave myself 30 mins per question so that I would have half an hour to go back and check for spelling errors, edit the structure, etc.  One of our lecturers made a good point: don’t spend too much time on any one essay.  Sometimes the examiners screw up and ask a question that really can’t be answered in the amount of time you should spend on it.  Just do your best and move on.  Everyone else will feel the same way, and it will be scaled accordingly.  Really, don’t get caught up on any single question.

Other general advice: don’t rehash problems after the exam.  It does no good.  Just forget about it and move on.  That said, it is rather therapeutic to talk about the exam in generalities with your fellow examinees.  E.g., “that female dog was tricky!”, “was it just me, or were there a lot of Ds?”, “did the proctor really have to spell ‘closed’ to us?”, “can you believe they threw in a tax question!?”, etc.  But don’t talk about specific problems.  Really, don’t be that annoying person who does that.

Yup, I think that’s about it.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 31, 2008, 08:45:30 AM
Oh, and another thing: should you take classes just because they're on the bar?  Heck no.  There's no way I'd want to take secured transactions or tax just because they're on the bar exam.  Take the classes you enjoy.  BarBri will teach you what you need to know.

That said, was, e.g., Evidence more manageable because I'd taken a course on it?  Of course.  But it can easily be learned with BarBri.  I know several people who didn't take Evidence and who did just fine with the evidence practice problems after going to lecture, reviewing the CMR, etc.  So don't waste your time.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on July 31, 2008, 08:52:26 AM
I LOVED my Evidence class. Easily my fave subject in law school.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 31, 2008, 09:31:03 AM


Lunch break.  Studied my outlines in my car strategically parked across the street and made an attempt to each a sandwich sorta.







Alci's overview of the July 2008 (non-NY) Bar Exam:



12:45-2: lunch.  We had to turn in our USB drives before we could go to lunch, so that cut lunch time by about 15 mins.  I used some of my westlaw points (all of them, actually, since I basically only use Lexis) to buy a cooler.  Wise investment.  I went to Subway the night before to get a sandwich, which I kept in my cooler in the trunk of my car.  Other people were scrambling to find stuff to eat.

I also reviewed some notes of the subjects that are always tested, but hadn’t come up in the morning session.





A, you are my brother from another mother.  We had the exact same attack strategy in terms of logistics.  Last year, I also got a cooler, put a couple sandwiches in there, put it in the trunk of my car, and parked my car directly across the street from the Jacob Javits Center so that I could avoid the scrambling and wasting time.  Went back to my car during the lunch break, ate a little bit (not too much, didn't want the 'itis!) and calmly looked over the subjects that I knew were frequently tested that I had not seen during the a.m. session while everybody else stood in line at the local [pick one] restaurant nearby wasting valuable time.  Good strategy.

I felt the same way about the MBE when I came out.  About 20 or so questions that I absolutely knew without a doubt, about 20 or so that I had no idea, and the rest were the 50/50 ones in the middle where I could narrow it down to 2 answers quickly and then decide from there. 

You're spot on about the moving on advice.  So many people get caught up because they simply get hung up on ONE question (on the essays or on the MBE) and they let valuable time pass.  I am a SLOW and deliberate reader, and even I made it through both the a.m. and the p.m. sessions with at least 30 minutes to spare because I just kept it moving, and went back to answer questions that I skipped at the end after completing all the questions.

Good biz, sounds like you got it in the bag.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Gary Glitter on July 31, 2008, 10:00:09 AM
that MBE was a nightmare
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 31, 2008, 10:03:49 AM
Good biz, sounds like you got it in the bag.

One can hope.  But regardless, out of sight and out of mind until it's time for results to come out.  Bar trip, here I come!

I LOVED my Evidence class. Easily my fave subject in law school.

Yeah it was one of my top three.  But I would imagine the corporate types view evidence in the same way that I view secured transactions...so for those types, they don't really have to bother.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 31, 2008, 10:04:58 AM
that MBE was a nightmare

Yeah it was tricky.  Not sure what to make of it though.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Nowhere Man on August 01, 2008, 09:05:31 PM
Yall dont understand how much I love reading these Bar Prep stories...

Sounds like you did fine to me!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on August 23, 2008, 06:04:59 AM
So my friends from North Carolina were informed that their results were mailed yesterday.  Damn that's quick!  How did they read the essays (12 per applicant) so fast?  It would be awesome to find out this early, though, and know whether or not to start studying again...we still have another 2 mos.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Gengiswump on August 24, 2008, 09:26:59 AM
Did you take the bar in [clerkship state]?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on August 24, 2008, 09:38:33 AM
Yup.  After studying [clerkship state]'s law for 3 mos, I almost regretted not taking [home state]'s bar exam so maybe I could be of some use to family and friends back home.  But then (a) I saw that [home state] has one of those torturous 3 day bars and requires all sorts of affidavits and references and such, and (b) I went home for a week and got way too many questions from people in various states of legal entanglement (surprising the dirt you can learn once you (almost) become a lawyer)...and happily told them that they should consult a [home state] lawyer.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Gengiswump on August 24, 2008, 09:42:31 AM
:D

It's always amazing to discover the sh!t people get into.  Of course, it's less amazing when they want you to help them, I dunno, sue their neighbor's dog, or whatever.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 27, 2008, 12:07:17 AM
Yup.  After studying [clerkship state]'s law for 3 mos, I almost regretted not taking [home state]'s bar exam so maybe I could be of some use to family and friends back home.  But then (a) I saw that [home state] has one of those torturous 3 day bars and requires all sorts of affidavits and references and such, and (b) I went home for a week and got way too many questions from people in various states of legal entanglement (surprising the dirt you can learn once you (almost) become a lawyer)...and happily told them that they should consult a [home state] lawyer.

Oh just wait until you pass the bar in a few months.  That's when the phone calls really begin!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on October 16, 2008, 06:49:33 PM
Alcibiades, Esq. ;D
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on October 16, 2008, 09:29:13 PM
Alcibiades, Esq. ;D

holla!!!!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on October 17, 2008, 04:25:08 AM
::terrorist fist bump::

hope everything is going well with you!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: cui bono? on October 17, 2008, 05:00:47 PM
Alcibiades, Esq. ;D


YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :) :-*
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on October 18, 2008, 06:54:40 AM
:)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: LadyKD on October 18, 2008, 07:16:00 PM
Congrats A1!!!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on October 19, 2008, 09:11:57 PM
Thanks, KD!

Although I just opened up my packet...bar fees, CLE requirements, license taxes...sheesh!  But I can't complain :)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on October 24, 2008, 04:49:03 PM
Alcibiades, Esq. ;D

Don't know how I missed this one.  Big Congrats, fellow Counselor!  Welcome to the club.

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on October 24, 2008, 04:58:18 PM
Thank you, Esquire.  And today is another happy day on Bar Exam Lane: I found out that my MBE was, indeed, high enough to waive into DC (my state doesn't tell us our MBE scores, but for $30, you can find out if your score was high enough to meet another jurisdiction's requirements).  Time to burn the BARBRI books!!!!*






*i.e., return them and get my $500 back
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on October 24, 2008, 05:17:45 PM
Thank you, Esquire.  And today is another happy day on Bar Exam Lane: I found out that my MBE was, indeed, high enough to waive into DC (my state doesn't tell us our MBE scores, but for $30, you can find out if your score was high enough to meet another jurisdiction's requirements).  Time to burn the BARBRI books!!!!*






*i.e., return them and get my $500 back


Extra $30??  What kinda scam are they runnin over there?  LOL  The MBE was the only thing that we actually got to see when we got our scores back.  It's interesting to see how the different states deal with reporting scores in different ways.  Especially when we all take the same MBE.  My homegirl in Mizzou not only got her score back, but she got a breakdown of her score per topic plus a list of the national average scores overall and per topic.  All we got was one score. Period.

I'm also interested in waiving into DC.  I understand it's an extra $500 or so yeah?



Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on October 24, 2008, 05:35:35 PM
Yeah they have some BS "your score doesn't mean anything as long as you pass" reason.  In reality, it's just a way to milk us out of more money, since a high percentage of people here want to waive into DC.  Although I wonder if there's anything to keep DC from telling us once we're admitted...

Yeah it costs a pretty penny to waive into DC.  There's the $400 application fee, then the NCBE charges another $250 to conduct a C&F review.  Since the NCBE is doing the C&F, one wonders what exactly DC is doing to warrant that $400 fee, but I digress...  Then, of course, once you're admitted, you have to pay the bar dues.  $195 for an entire year.  If you're sworn in between January 1 and April 30, then half that.  If you're sworn in between April 30 and July 1, then you will just pay the next fiscal year's dues.

So in total, you're looking at about $750-850.

The app is online and is pretty straightforward if you kept your old bar app.  The only new things you'll need are a law school certification and a certificate of good standing from your state's highest court.  And you'll also need to remember details of your speeding tickets...
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on October 24, 2008, 07:01:59 PM
Yeah they have some BS "your score doesn't mean anything as long as you pass" reason.  In reality, it's just a way to milk us out of more money, since a high percentage of people here want to waive into DC.  Although I wonder if there's anything to keep DC from telling us once we're admitted...

Yeah it costs a pretty penny to waive into DC.  There's the $400 application fee, then the NCBE charges another $250 to conduct a C&F review.  Since the NCBE is doing the C&F, one wonders what exactly DC is doing to warrant that $400 fee, but I digress...  Then, of course, once you're admitted, you have to pay the bar dues.  $195 for an entire year.  If you're sworn in between January 1 and April 30, then half that.  If you're sworn in between April 30 and July 1, then you will just pay the next fiscal year's dues.

So in total, you're looking at about $750-850.

The app is online and is pretty straightforward if you kept your old bar app.  The only new things you'll need are a law school certification and a certificate of good standing from your state's highest court.  And you'll also need to remember details of your speeding tickets...

Didn't realize it was that bad.  Sheesh.  On second thought, perhaps I'll wait until an employer actually wants me to come down to DC and is willing to pay all that jazz for me.  I'm having a time as it is keeping Jersey satisfied with all their stupid mandatory CLE classes.

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on October 24, 2008, 07:35:31 PM
That's one good thing about DC though...no additional CLE requirements.  So once you're in and pay your dues, that pretty much does it for them.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on October 24, 2008, 09:04:11 PM
Hmmm....no CLE's you say?  Hey that's my kinda bar.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Nowhere Man on April 03, 2009, 04:52:02 PM
Who is taking the July 2009 Bar?

And if so, what state(s)are you sitting for?


NY and NJ here.

I am taking the PMBR - Complete Bar Review
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on April 16, 2009, 07:50:42 AM
Good luck

Who is taking the July 2009 Bar?

And if so, what state(s)are you sitting for?


NY and NJ here.

I am taking the PMBR - Complete Bar Review
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on April 16, 2009, 07:37:11 PM
Seems like such a long time ago...
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: TruOne on June 22, 2009, 08:24:31 AM
Who is taking the July 2009 Bar?

And if so, what state(s)are you sitting for?


NY and NJ here.

I am taking the PMBR - Complete Bar Review

SC

and might I add, that this is slow torture having to sit and listen to a lecturer read from an outline that I have RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME!

Question for successful takers:

My method so far has been making flashcards of every topic. Did you all do this for the Essay topics as well?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Matthies on June 22, 2009, 08:49:20 AM
Who is taking the July 2009 Bar?

And if so, what state(s)are you sitting for?


NY and NJ here.

I am taking the PMBR - Complete Bar Review

SC

and might I add, that this is slow torture having to sit and listen to a lecturer read from an outline that I have RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME!

Question for successful takers:

My method so far has been making flashcards of every topic. Did you all do this for the Essay topics as well?

Good question, doing the same here?


I'm taking CO in July, WY in Feb (asuming I pass CO)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 22, 2009, 05:07:34 PM
My method so far has been making flashcards of every topic. Did you all do this for the Essay topics as well?

You should do whatever has worked for you in the past.  I've never found flashcards to be helpful (at least not enough to justify the time it takes to make them), so I didn't use them for the bar.  If the essays will be testing learned material, then I would imagine flashcards to be useful for those too.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 22, 2009, 06:20:32 PM
Who is taking the July 2009 Bar?

And if so, what state(s)are you sitting for?


NY and NJ here.

I am taking the PMBR - Complete Bar Review

SC

and might I add, that this is slow torture having to sit and listen to a lecturer read from an outline that I have RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME!

Question for successful takers:

My method so far has been making flashcards of every topic. Did you all do this for the Essay topics as well?


No I didn't, but then again I was never a flash cards maker.  Now my study parter (who also passed) she was a flash card person so that worked for her.  While she was making flash cards to help her learn the material, I went back over outlines and made my own notes on the outlines and then I posted a big azz 2 foot by 3 foot poster of all the important stuff that I picked out of a subject (typically questions I missed or particular doctrines that required flow-chart-analysis) and hung it on the wall so that I could look at it every day.  By the end of the summer our study room looked like homeboy's crib in "A Beautiful Mind."

Hey whatever works right?

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: TruOne on June 23, 2009, 02:05:27 PM
Who is taking the July 2009 Bar?

And if so, what state(s)are you sitting for?


NY and NJ here.

I am taking the PMBR - Complete Bar Review

SC

and might I add, that this is slow torture having to sit and listen to a lecturer read from an outline that I have RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME!

Question for successful takers:

My method so far has been making flashcards of every topic. Did you all do this for the Essay topics as well?


No I didn't, but then again I was never a flash cards maker.  Now my study parter (who also passed) she was a flash card person so that worked for her.  While she was making flash cards to help her learn the material, I went back over outlines and made my own notes on the outlines and then I posted a big azz 2 foot by 3 foot poster of all the important stuff that I picked out of a subject (typically questions I missed or particular doctrines that required flow-chart-analysis) and hung it on the wall so that I could look at it every day.  By the end of the summer our study room looked like homeboy's crib in "A Beautiful Mind."

Hey whatever works right?

Oh God I hate that movie! The ending left me with a intellectual blue-balls. All that build-up for what???

A damn pen in the library!?!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 26, 2009, 03:41:37 PM
I found both groups extremely helpful, and necessary, however the group who failed was overwhelmingly more able to say EXACTLY what did not work and what was a waste of time.  The group who passed were basically only able to tell me what they did, but not necessarily what EXACTLY made them pass.  You feel me?

What did the FAILED people have to say? Cuz I'm close to freakin' out my-damn-self.


Let's see...from what I recall the most common theme that stands out about the folks who did not pass is that they waited until the last minute.  In most cases, they didn't even start studying until July, and a handful of my friends who attended T14 schools literally waited until 2 weeks before the NY bar exam before they even started studying.  Their rationalle: they're obviously good test takers (coming from Harvard, Berkley, UChi, etc.) so why should this be any different?

Of course, we know how that turned out.  It's not about being a good test taker when it comes to the bar - there's just entirely too much friggin stuff you have to cover for the bar that can not physically be covered in a two week time span. I don't care if you're Doogie Houser, you're not passing the bar exam in 2 weeks, let alone the NY Bar Exam (considered by most to be the toughest in the country).

So if you have been studying through this month of June then you should be good money.  I coached a girl in the class behind me who, due to work obligations, had not been able to really sit down and study throughout the entire month of June.  She passed, but it was a chore getting her up to speed.  So it is possible, although highly unlikely, to wait that long and still pass.

The other thing that I hear about from folks who didn't pass was not doing well enough on the MBE.  Meaning they followed the BarBri schedule religously and hadn't practiced MBE questions all summer long.  You MUST get your MBE questions in there (see all the previous pages of this thread)  Between the Essays or the MBE, it's usually the MBE that keeps folks from passing.  In New York, it is rumored (although, of course, never confirmed by the NY State Bar) that if you score above a 140 on the MBE then they don't even read your essays b/c it is automatically assumed that you passed.

So if you have been hitting the MBE questions hard every day then, again, you should be good money.

The bar is without a doubt one of the greatest, most difficult, most monumental "academic" (for lack of a better term) achievements that I have ever accomplished in my life time.  Hands down.  However, it is completely doable (and the odds are actually IN YOUR FAVOR to pass) if you come from an ABA accredited law school and just sit your azz down for a couple months and put in the study time.

Let me know how else I can help.  There's a strong brain trust of cats around here who can also help getcha through this rough time. 

One last thing - stay positive.  Well...as much as possible that is.



Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Matthies on June 26, 2009, 03:57:16 PM
Sands, I have a question. I got really bad dyslexia, like everything I write is misspelled or backwards. They gave me accommodations on the bar of the use of a spell checker, but no extra time to do it. So realistically based on the practice essays I’ve been doing I can only afford to write for 20 of the 30 mins then I got run spell checker. So basically on all the written parts of the exam I have 1/3 less time. If I go for max points and just throw everything in there you think its possible to pass the written section with only 20 of the thirty mins available? I know the questions are designed to be answered in 30 mins, but I’m wondering if getting enough points down in 20 is doable. So far I’ve been doing ok using this time set up, getting maybe 60-70% of the points, but I don’t know if that’s enough to pass or not. I’m afraid I’m really going to be screwed on the PTs loosing 1/3 of my time. I’m taking two tomorrow and am going to try and increase my read speed to give me more write time.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 26, 2009, 04:48:15 PM
Sands, I have a question. I got really bad dyslexia, like everything I write is misspelled or backwards. They gave me accommodations on the bar of the use of a spell checker, but no extra time to do it. So realistically based on the practice essays I’ve been doing I can only afford to write for 20 of the 30 mins then I got run spell checker. So basically on all the written parts of the exam I have 1/3 less time. If I go for max points and just throw everything in there you think its possible to pass the written section with only 20 of the thirty mins available? I know the questions are designed to be answered in 30 mins, but I’m wondering if getting enough points down in 20 is doable. So far I’ve been doing ok using this time set up, getting maybe 60-70% of the points, but I don’t know if that’s enough to pass or not. I’m afraid I’m really going to be screwed on the PTs loosing 1/3 of my time. I’m taking two tomorrow and am going to try and increase my read speed to give me more write time.


Probably so. I skipped an entire essay and still passed, so I don't see why you couldn't pass with 20 minutes on each one.  The most important part of the essays is that first 2 or 3 sentences that you write anyway.  After that, from what I've been told, if your answer introduction sounds legit then they just skim the rest for buzz words and keep it moving.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Matthies on June 26, 2009, 04:49:47 PM
Sands, I have a question. I got really bad dyslexia, like everything I write is misspelled or backwards. They gave me accommodations on the bar of the use of a spell checker, but no extra time to do it. So realistically based on the practice essays I’ve been doing I can only afford to write for 20 of the 30 mins then I got run spell checker. So basically on all the written parts of the exam I have 1/3 less time. If I go for max points and just throw everything in there you think its possible to pass the written section with only 20 of the thirty mins available? I know the questions are designed to be answered in 30 mins, but I’m wondering if getting enough points down in 20 is doable. So far I’ve been doing ok using this time set up, getting maybe 60-70% of the points, but I don’t know if that’s enough to pass or not. I’m afraid I’m really going to be screwed on the PTs loosing 1/3 of my time. I’m taking two tomorrow and am going to try and increase my read speed to give me more write time.


Probably so. I skipped an entire essay and still passed, so I don't see why you couldn't pass with 20 minutes on each one.  The most important part of the essays is that first 2 or 3 sentences that you write anyway.  After that, from what I've been told, if your answer introduction sounds legit then they just skim the rest for buzz words and keep it moving.

cool, glad to hear that, I was not to happy when my accodidation made the exam shoter and harder  ::)
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Kirk Lazarus on June 26, 2009, 06:27:42 PM
if you write in your barbri books can you get the refund? Dumb question, I know...but i'm curious.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Matthies on June 26, 2009, 06:29:51 PM
if you write in your barbri books can you get the refund? Dumb question, I know...but i'm curious.

you get a refund? for what? I have not written in the books becuase I can't read my own handwriting I type it up.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 27, 2009, 12:40:04 PM
if you write in your barbri books can you get the refund? Dumb question, I know...but i'm curious.


Ehhhhhhhhhhh...I think so.  Don't quote me on that.  Been a few years since I was a BarBri rep.  I imagine you probably wouldn't be the first person to write in a BarBri book and return it.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 29, 2009, 06:23:34 AM
Yup, write in it, rip pages out, highlight, whatever you want to do.  Just throw it all back in when you're done (except lecture notes)...they just want the material back so you can't sell it.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 29, 2009, 06:25:12 AM
Meaning they followed the BarBri schedule religously and hadn't practiced MBE questions all summer long.

They must not have even followed the barbri schedule.  I did so religiously (except that outlining crap) and had MBE questions every single day.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Matthies on June 29, 2009, 07:44:29 AM
Yup, write in it, rip pages out, highlight, whatever you want to do.  Just throw it all back in when you're done (except lecture notes)...they just want the material back so you can't sell it.

This must be diffrent in diffrent states, we don't get any refund here and you get to keep everything, I got 3 sets of BarBri books, mine and 2 older sets from freinds who took the bar before me. I plan on keeping everything until I know I passed.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 29, 2009, 11:11:25 AM
Meaning they followed the BarBri schedule religously and hadn't practiced MBE questions all summer long.

They must not have even followed the barbri schedule.  I did so religiously (except that outlining crap) and had MBE questions every single day.

Yeah but how many?  I know BarBri had an MBE book but that joker was mad weak when compared to the PMBR books.

Plus those BarBri MBE questions were weird.  They covered the subjects, true, but they just seemed a bit...off from the real thing.  But then again, neither BarBri or PMBR had the questions down exactly right on test day.  However, I do have to say though that the PMBR questions seemed to more closely resemble the actual MBE questions than did the BarBri questions.

I think we had this debate earlier.

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 29, 2009, 04:55:46 PM
Meaning they followed the BarBri schedule religously and hadn't practiced MBE questions all summer long.

They must not have even followed the barbri schedule.  I did so religiously (except that outlining crap) and had MBE questions every single day.

Yeah but how many?  I know BarBri had an MBE book but that joker was mad weak when compared to the PMBR books.

Plus those BarBri MBE questions were weird.  They covered the subjects, true, but they just seemed a bit...off from the real thing.  But then again, neither BarBri or PMBR had the questions down exactly right on test day.  However, I do have to say though that the PMBR questions seemed to more closely resemble the actual MBE questions than did the BarBri questions.

I think we had this debate earlier.



Well if you do the online stuff (which is pretty much all I did except for the printed practice tests), there are thousands of questions.  I never ran out (and it was useful to mix in the ones that I'd missed before anyway).

As for BARBRI v. PMBR, I think we did have this debate.  I tried to give PMBR a go, but it just didn't do it for me.  So now I advise people to try out a few dozen questions from both and see which they find more helpful.  After doing a PMBR question set for each section, I ended up more confused than anything.  Then I had to unlearn all of those obscure exceptions and special rules they like to test.  You really can pass the bar exam with a good knowledge of the basics (and basic exceptions).  PMBR just takes it to a whole nother level.  PMBR probably would've been nice if I'd been trying to ace the bar exam...but I wasn't.  I just wanted my 133 so I could waive into the DC Bar (I still don't know my score, since VA doesn't release them, but they will tell you if it was high enough to waive into another jurisdiction, and mine, fortunately, was).

EDIT: It's possible to need higher than 133 in VA...it depends on how well you do on the VA essays.  That said, BARBRI alone was still enough for me to pass and to get at least a 133.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 29, 2009, 05:04:50 PM
Yup, write in it, rip pages out, highlight, whatever you want to do.  Just throw it all back in when you're done (except lecture notes)...they just want the material back so you can't sell it.

This must be diffrent in diffrent states, we don't get any refund here and you get to keep everything, I got 3 sets of BarBri books, mine and 2 older sets from freinds who took the bar before me. I plan on keeping everything until I know I passed.

Well, the refund is just an option.  You can keep the books in VA, but then you don't get your $200 or whatever.  That's a nice little piece of change (e.g., alcohol on your bar trip  ;)), and you can still keep your lecture notes, so I turned everything else back in.  They also allowed us to wait until after we got our results...so if I'd failed, then I guess I would've kept them.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 29, 2009, 06:15:43 PM
Meaning they followed the BarBri schedule religously and hadn't practiced MBE questions all summer long.

They must not have even followed the barbri schedule.  I did so religiously (except that outlining crap) and had MBE questions every single day.

Yeah but how many?  I know BarBri had an MBE book but that joker was mad weak when compared to the PMBR books.

Plus those BarBri MBE questions were weird.  They covered the subjects, true, but they just seemed a bit...off from the real thing.  But then again, neither BarBri or PMBR had the questions down exactly right on test day.  However, I do have to say though that the PMBR questions seemed to more closely resemble the actual MBE questions than did the BarBri questions.

I think we had this debate earlier.



Well if you do the online stuff (which is pretty much all I did except for the printed practice tests), there are thousands of questions.  I never ran out (and it was useful to mix in the ones that I'd missed before anyway).

As for BARBRI v. PMBR, I think we did have this debate.  I tried to give PMBR a go, but it just didn't do it for me.  So now I advise people to try out a few dozen questions from both and see which they find more helpful.  After doing a PMBR question set for each section, I ended up more confused than anything.  Then I had to unlearn all of those obscure exceptions and special rules they like to test.  You really can pass the bar exam with a good knowledge of the basics (and basic exceptions).  PMBR just takes it to a whole nother level.  PMBR probably would've been nice if I'd been trying to ace the bar exam...but I wasn't.  I just wanted my 133 so I could waive into the DC Bar (I still don't know my score, since VA doesn't release them, but they will tell you if it was high enough to waive into another jurisdiction, and mine, fortunately, was).

EDIT: It's possible to need higher than 133 in VA...it depends on how well you do on the VA essays.  That said, BARBRI alone was still enough for me to pass and to get at least a 133.


I can see that. 

And that makes sense: I would expect a genius such as yourself to be able to pass with BarBri, but as for the mentally challenged like myself, I am about 99.9% certain that I would have failed if I had relied on BarBri alone.

No scores back in VA?  What's that about? 

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 29, 2009, 06:50:06 PM
Lol IIRC, you rocked the NY bar exam, so I'm 99.9% confident that you could have easily passed on BARBRI alone.

Yeah VA is wack about the scores...they say that all that matters is whether you passed, not by how much you passed.  BS.  Once I waive into DC (if I do...it's been 7 mos already since I applied...they're mad slow), maybe I'll try to find out.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 29, 2009, 08:17:04 PM
Lol IIRC, you rocked the NY bar exam, so I'm 99.9% confident that you could have easily passed on BARBRI alone.

Yeah VA is wack about the scores...they say that all that matters is whether you passed, not by how much you passed.  BS.  Once I waive into DC (if I do...it's been 7 mos already since I applied...they're mad slow), maybe I'll try to find out.

7 Months?  And I thought NY was slow.

In NY we get our MBE score back and that's it, if you pass that is.  If you fail then they give you everything back: your MBE and your individual essay scores, your MPT and your NY Multiple Choice score.

In Missouri, my homegirl said that even when you pass (which she did) they give you back your MBE scores and show you how you did in each section, and they even compare each of your sections to the national average score for each section and for the MBE as a whole.

Not fair.

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on June 29, 2009, 08:27:28 PM
And even more amusing are those states (I think AZ is one) that give a prize for the highest scorer!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 07, 2009, 12:26:45 PM
Some have been asking what to do in these final weeks before the New York bar exam.   This is crunch time indeed so time to kick it up a notch.

(the following advice is specifically for New York but you can apply it generally to most other states)


In your final few weeks, you really want to shift your focus to beef up your Essay game.

Keep doing the practice MBE questions every day, of course. Do 50 a day, review the answers.  That should be like breathing at this point.

However, with respect to the Essays, start going through the separac.com/bar site and get somebody who has the MASTER outline (since that bastard is now charging for it - I don't have an electronic copy but I'm sure most of the people from last year do) and start memorizing issue paragraphs of law for the most repetitive subjects.  When I say issue paragraphs I'm talking about literally what your first 3 to 4 sentences are going to be on your essay.  For example, a question about contracts should start off with:

"Under New York law, a contract is formed when there is a valid offer, acceptance, and consideration...blah blah blah."

No matter what the specific contract question is about, could be a formation issue, could be statute of frauds issue, could be anticipatory repudiation issue,  you always start off by quoting what a contract is to get those points from the bar graders.  Apply this same logic to corporations, crim, family law, wills, trusts, etc.

Rumor has it, if your first few sentences sound legit on an essay then the just skim the rest quickly for buzz words and call it a day.

Remember, in New York, you get your essay points by throwing as much law as you can cram in your head into the "R" of the IRAC answer.  Your "I" sentence can literally be 1 sentence.  The "A" analysis can literally be 1 or 2 sentences (ie: "Here, the rule applies so he was negligent.")  Perfectly acceptable.  Likewise, the "C" can be 1 sentence as well if  you didn't lump it in with the "A" in the previous sentence.

However the "R" needs to be an entire paragraph.  Look at the NY State Bar Exam website under the model answers and you will see what I mean.  Very skimpy I, Big Fat R, very skimpy A, very skimpy C.  So your points are going to come from memorizing as many things as you can about the New York Rules of law for the 20+ subjects that are covered on the NY Bar exam.

Some subjects repeat more than others.  For example, you are almost GUARANTEED to see the following:

NY Practice
Contacts
Corporations
Wills
Trusts
Crim Law
Crim Pro
Family Law
Torts

after that, you will likely see:


Property
Federal Courts
Evidence
Ethics
Commercial f-ing Paper (sorry, flashback)
Secured Transactions
Agency
Partnerships
and all the other "secondary" essay topics that show up every so often but that are not guaranteed to be on their every year like first group above.

Speaking of the first group, you will likely have 2 subjects per essay.

For example, The essay question will be a Contracts issue that also involves NY Practice, or a Crim Law question that also involves Commercial f-ing Paper.  They like to mix it up like that.

Here's what you need to memorize:

For Corporations make sure you memorize duty of care, duty of loyalty, and involuntary dissolution. Be familiar with everything else.

For Contracts make sure you memorize the definition of a Contract, anticipatory repudiation, breach, and UCC. Be familiar with everything else.

For Family Law make sure you memorize BIOC - Best Interest of the Child, maintenance (alimony), child custody, and the definition of Divorce. Be familiar with everything else.

For Wills memorize the definition of a will. Be familiar with everything else.

For Trusts memorize the definition of a trust. Be familiar with everything else.

For NY Practice memorize Motion to Dismiss, Summary Judgment, and all the Preliminary Injunctions and all the Statute of Limitation time periods for everything.  Be familiar with everything else.

For Crim memorize murder (1st and 2nd), manslaughter (1st and 2nd) Burglary, Arson, Rape, Robery, Kidnapping.  Be familiar with everything else.

For Crim Pro memorize 4th Amend Search & Seizure, 5th Amend privilege against self incrimination, and 6th Amend right to counsel (including NY's indelible right to counsel). Be familiar with everything else.


Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Matthies on July 07, 2009, 12:40:24 PM
sands, thanks for this. I'm having the biggest issue with my I part, I tend to make the issue to braod, got an advice on making your I more pin point, like if its a mutliple rule answer should I do an I then R for eachs as diffrent paragraphs?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 07, 2009, 02:26:45 PM
sands, thanks for this. I'm having the biggest issue with my I part, I tend to make the issue to braod, got an advice on making your I more pin point, like if its a mutliple rule answer should I do an I then R for eachs as diffrent paragraphs?

It was my experience on New York and New Jersey that they would actually frame the issue for you in the question stem, or the question was narrow enough to the point where you could simply rephrase the question stem into a statement, thereby converting it into an issue statement.

How are your bar exam questions formatted?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Matthies on July 07, 2009, 02:40:05 PM
sands, thanks for this. I'm having the biggest issue with my I part, I tend to make the issue to braod, got an advice on making your I more pin point, like if its a mutliple rule answer should I do an I then R for eachs as diffrent paragraphs?

It was my experience on New York and New Jersey that they would actually frame the issue for you in the question stem, or the question was narrow enough to the point where you could simply rephrase the question stem into a statement, thereby converting it into an issue statement.

How are your bar exam questions formatted?

We are doing the MEE (Multistate Essay Exam) for the first time here in Colorado so we don't have that many old essays to work from, just what has been given in other MEE states. They can cominbe more than one subject into a question so I’ve had eassys that say like: Discuss X’s contract remidies? And Then Dicuss the constutional isues if the court upholds the contract. Mostly they have been pretty vauge open ended stuff like that. Not really a lot of direction.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 07, 2009, 04:18:24 PM
sands, thanks for this. I'm having the biggest issue with my I part, I tend to make the issue to braod, got an advice on making your I more pin point, like if its a mutliple rule answer should I do an I then R for eachs as diffrent paragraphs?

It was my experience on New York and New Jersey that they would actually frame the issue for you in the question stem, or the question was narrow enough to the point where you could simply rephrase the question stem into a statement, thereby converting it into an issue statement.

How are your bar exam questions formatted?

We are doing the MEE (Multistate Essay Exam) for the first time here in Colorado so we don't have that many old essays to work from, just what has been given in other MEE states. They can cominbe more than one subject into a question so I’ve had eassys that say like: Discuss X’s contract remidies? And Then Dicuss the constutional isues if the court upholds the contract. Mostly they have been pretty vauge open ended stuff like that. Not really a lot of direction.


Ah.  Yes.  The infamous "Discuss" question stems.  I hate those. 

New Jersey was good for throwing a few of those in the mix here or there. When an essay leaves it open ended and just says "discuss" then, as you know, its on you to rattle off as many issues as you can spot within the allotted time. 

Now as far as how do you specifically make the issues more narrow as opposed to being too broad, my answer is that they really don't have to be too narrow.

For example, thinking back to my NJ bar exam, there was a constitutional law essay that was loaded with due process, equal protection, states rights, etc.  I must have spotted a dozen issues but only had time to talk about 3 or 4.  First thing to consider is whether any one issue must, as a practical matter, be discussed before any other.  If not, then it's really up to you.  So fire away with your issue sentence.

I think nice and short Issue sentences are fine because you don't get any points for stating the issue.  Maybe like 1/2 a point or something. Stating the issue is really just a formality when you think about it.  The essay answer has to start somehow.  The bulk of your points are going to come from your discussion of the rule and analysis.


I offer the following Issue statement sentences to hopefully show how little time you should spend on writing them:

"Bernie may sue Lindsay for defamation."
"Gus may claim that Bernie is liable for intentional interference with a business."
"The issue is whether a valid contract was formed."
"The issue is whether Rich has an easement to use the driveway on Lot 1."
"The issue is whether testimony regarding a writing may be admitted to prove the contents of the writing."


Just say the issue as you see it in 60 seconds or less and keep it moving so you can get to those points in the rule/analysis.

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Matthies on July 07, 2009, 04:39:55 PM
sands, thanks for this. I'm having the biggest issue with my I part, I tend to make the issue to braod, got an advice on making your I more pin point, like if its a mutliple rule answer should I do an I then R for eachs as diffrent paragraphs?

It was my experience on New York and New Jersey that they would actually frame the issue for you in the question stem, or the question was narrow enough to the point where you could simply rephrase the question stem into a statement, thereby converting it into an issue statement.

How are your bar exam questions formatted?

We are doing the MEE (Multistate Essay Exam) for the first time here in Colorado so we don't have that many old essays to work from, just what has been given in other MEE states. They can cominbe more than one subject into a question so I’ve had eassys that say like: Discuss X’s contract remidies? And Then Dicuss the constutional isues if the court upholds the contract. Mostly they have been pretty vauge open ended stuff like that. Not really a lot of direction.


Ah.  Yes.  The infamous "Discuss" question stems.  I hate those. 

New Jersey was good for throwing a few of those in the mix here or there. When an essay leaves it open ended and just says "discuss" then, as you know, its on you to rattle off as many issues as you can spot within the allotted time. 

Now as far as how do you specifically make the issues more narrow as opposed to being too broad, my answer is that they really don't have to be too narrow.

For example, thinking back to my NJ bar exam, there was a constitutional law essay that was loaded with due process, equal protection, states rights, etc.  I must have spotted a dozen issues but only had time to talk about 3 or 4.  First thing to consider is whether any one issue must, as a practical matter, be discussed before any other.  If not, then it's really up to you.  So fire away with your issue sentence.

I think nice and short Issue sentences are fine because you don't get any points for stating the issue.  Maybe like 1/2 a point or something. Stating the issue is really just a formality when you think about it.  The essay answer has to start somehow.  The bulk of your points are going to come from your discussion of the rule and analysis.


I offer the following Issue statement sentences to hopefully show how little time you should spend on writing them:

"Bernie may sue Lindsay for defamation."
"Gus may claim that Bernie is liable for intentional interference with a business."
"The issue is whether a valid contract was formed."
"The issue is whether Rich has an easement to use the driveway on Lot 1."
"The issue is whether testimony regarding a writing may be admitted to prove the contents of the writing."


Just say the issue as you see it in 60 seconds or less and keep it moving so you can get to those points in the rule/analysis.



Sands, thanks! This helps alot. I really gotta mine for rule points fast becuase to have time to spell check I can only really write for 20 mins so I goota get as many points as I can since I have 1/3 less time than most folks. If I am runing out of time you think its best then to just start tossing out rules w/o any I A or C in a last few seconds point grab?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Nowhere Man on July 07, 2009, 09:59:11 PM
Sands thats what Im talking about!

Im gonna make poster boards of those topics you said I need to memorize
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 08, 2009, 08:29:15 AM
sands, thanks for this. I'm having the biggest issue with my I part, I tend to make the issue to braod, got an advice on making your I more pin point, like if its a mutliple rule answer should I do an I then R for eachs as diffrent paragraphs?

It was my experience on New York and New Jersey that they would actually frame the issue for you in the question stem, or the question was narrow enough to the point where you could simply rephrase the question stem into a statement, thereby converting it into an issue statement.

How are your bar exam questions formatted?

We are doing the MEE (Multistate Essay Exam) for the first time here in Colorado so we don't have that many old essays to work from, just what has been given in other MEE states. They can cominbe more than one subject into a question so I’ve had eassys that say like: Discuss X’s contract remidies? And Then Dicuss the constutional isues if the court upholds the contract. Mostly they have been pretty vauge open ended stuff like that. Not really a lot of direction.


Ah.  Yes.  The infamous "Discuss" question stems.  I hate those. 

New Jersey was good for throwing a few of those in the mix here or there. When an essay leaves it open ended and just says "discuss" then, as you know, its on you to rattle off as many issues as you can spot within the allotted time. 

Now as far as how do you specifically make the issues more narrow as opposed to being too broad, my answer is that they really don't have to be too narrow.

For example, thinking back to my NJ bar exam, there was a constitutional law essay that was loaded with due process, equal protection, states rights, etc.  I must have spotted a dozen issues but only had time to talk about 3 or 4.  First thing to consider is whether any one issue must, as a practical matter, be discussed before any other.  If not, then it's really up to you.  So fire away with your issue sentence.

I think nice and short Issue sentences are fine because you don't get any points for stating the issue.  Maybe like 1/2 a point or something. Stating the issue is really just a formality when you think about it.  The essay answer has to start somehow.  The bulk of your points are going to come from your discussion of the rule and analysis.


I offer the following Issue statement sentences to hopefully show how little time you should spend on writing them:

"Bernie may sue Lindsay for defamation."
"Gus may claim that Bernie is liable for intentional interference with a business."
"The issue is whether a valid contract was formed."
"The issue is whether Rich has an easement to use the driveway on Lot 1."
"The issue is whether testimony regarding a writing may be admitted to prove the contents of the writing."


Just say the issue as you see it in 60 seconds or less and keep it moving so you can get to those points in the rule/analysis.



Sands, thanks! This helps alot. I really gotta mine for rule points fast becuase to have time to spell check I can only really write for 20 mins so I goota get as many points as I can since I have 1/3 less time than most folks. If I am runing out of time you think its best then to just start tossing out rules w/o any I A or C in a last few seconds point grab?

For NY, they told us that after you are done writing your essay, should something else pop into your head, you should say:

"It should be noted that..."

And then say whatever else you can say to get some points. 

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Matthies on July 08, 2009, 08:32:03 AM
Ok cool, I'll try that. My issues is I run out of time before I can get all the big issues in, so I've been starting with the obviouse and the ones where the rules I know the best, but then I'm out of time and I know I am leaving points on the table becuase of the time issuse. Myabe just blurting out as many rules as I can spot at the end is the best way to salvage that
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 08, 2009, 09:07:09 AM
Ok cool, I'll try that. My issues is I run out of time before I can get all the big issues in, so I've been starting with the obviouse and the ones where the rules I know the best, but then I'm out of time and I know I am leaving points on the table becuase of the time issuse. Myabe just blurting out as many rules as I can spot at the end is the best way to salvage that

Time is an important fact.

When I was taking Jersey, we got 40 minutes per essay.   Even though the time broke down to 40 minutes/essay the bar exam proctors did not call time after 40 minutes, nor did the bar examiners care how much time you spent on each essay.  As far as they were concerned, there was an AM session of a few hours, a lunch break, and a PM session of a few hours in the afternoon and that was it.  They only called "TIME" for the lunch break and for the end of the afternoon session.  How you spent the time was up to you.

I had my watch out on the table and as soon as that thing hit the 40 minute mark I literally stopped where I was at and went on to the next essay.

I think Crim was the 2nd or 3rd essay and I remember not getting to all of the issues in that one.  But then after I did the Property essay, which was surprisingly short, I had about 10 minutes left so I went back to the Crim essay and beefed it up.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Matthies on July 08, 2009, 10:16:14 AM
Ok cool, I'll try that. My issues is I run out of time before I can get all the big issues in, so I've been starting with the obviouse and the ones where the rules I know the best, but then I'm out of time and I know I am leaving points on the table becuase of the time issuse. Myabe just blurting out as many rules as I can spot at the end is the best way to salvage that

Time is an important fact.

When I was taking Jersey, we got 40 minutes per essay.   Even though the time broke down to 40 minutes/essay the bar exam proctors did not call time after 40 minutes, nor did the bar examiners care how much time you spent on each essay.  As far as they were concerned, there was an AM session of a few hours, a lunch break, and a PM session of a few hours in the afternoon and that was it.  They only called "TIME" for the lunch break and for the end of the afternoon session.  How you spent the time was up to you.

I had my watch out on the table and as soon as that thing hit the 40 minute mark I literally stopped where I was at and went on to the next essay.

I think Crim was the 2nd or 3rd essay and I remember not getting to all of the issues in that one.  But then after I did the Property essay, which was surprisingly short, I had about 10 minutes left so I went back to the Crim essay and beefed it up.

Yea, the way its set up here is you have 3 hours in the morning and 3 in the afternoon, what you do with that time is up to you. In each of those 3 hours you have one performance test and three essays. The way barbri has taught us is do PT first, spend 45 mins reading and outlining then 45 mins writing. Then each easy spend 30 mins on.
 
All that’s well and good if you’re not dyslexic and misspell everything like me. They turned down my request for extra time (but gave it to people with just ADHD of which I also have WFT?) but gave me at least a spell checker.

So after doing practice tests its basically come down to me having 30 mins to write the PT then needing 15 mins to run the spellchecker (I spell things backwards or phonetically so its not as simple as just clicking the right word, often times it has NO IDEA what I am actually trying to spell) and only 20 mins to write on the essays with 10 to spell check. So timing is a major issue for me, I gotta cram as many points into the writing time as I can because I have to stop earlier than everyone else. 

So I’m think bang out the two best issues/rules I can make quickly then just dump rules statements for the last 2-3 mins before I gotta stop writing. Or I could skip one whole essay and devote that extra time to the other two and the PT, that would pick me up 30 more mins of writing time, but at the cost of a whole essay. Not sure I’m smart enough to get enough points on everything else to sacrifice one whole question. Dilemmas..
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: TruOne on July 08, 2009, 03:36:36 PM
Am I the only one who is taking the Exam in a state that doesn't do MPT?

My state has particular State law issues

Day 1
Domestic Relations
UCC
Insurance

Day 2
State and Federal Civil Procedure
Wills, Trusts, and Estates
Corporations and Agency

Day 3
MBE
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Matthies on July 08, 2009, 03:43:49 PM
Am I the only one who is taking the Exam in a state that doesn't do MPT?

My state has particular State law issues

Day 1
Domestic Relations
UCC
Insurance

Day 2
State and Federal Civil Procedure
Wills, Trusts, and Estates
Corporations and Agency

Day 3
MBE


That sucks abolut no MPT becuase you don't need to know any law to answer it, they give you the rules! Here is couts as 2.5 times an essay so I'm hoping I can ace that part
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 08, 2009, 04:43:35 PM
Am I the only one who is taking the Exam in a state that doesn't do MPT?

My state has particular State law issues

Day 1
Domestic Relations
UCC
Insurance

Day 2
State and Federal Civil Procedure
Wills, Trusts, and Estates
Corporations and Agency

Day 3
MBE


I didn't take the MPT.  Seems easy though.  We also didn't have 3 days of examination either...(one reason I didn't take in the bar in my home state, which does).
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 09, 2009, 12:39:17 PM
Am I the only one who is taking the Exam in a state that doesn't do MPT?

My state has particular State law issues

Day 1
Domestic Relations
UCC
Insurance

Day 2
State and Federal Civil Procedure
Wills, Trusts, and Estates
Corporations and Agency

Day 3
MBE



Jersey - no MPT.

New York - MPT (becuase 28 topics of essays aren't hard enough I guess)

The MPT was not difficult at all, and I'm not one of those people who makes a habit of saying things are easy when they're not.  You read the "file" they give you, you read the case law they give you, you write an answer.  It's like your first year closed memo assignment that you did for LRW, only now, 3 years of law school and a JD later, you actually know how to write.

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Miss P on July 09, 2009, 04:49:04 PM
I've been scared to even peek into this thread, but I just read the last few pages, and I have to say thank you, Sands, for all of your amazing advice!

[tag]
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 09, 2009, 08:17:27 PM
No prob.  Do what I can.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: TruOne on July 18, 2009, 03:26:24 PM
Anybody else take the KAPLAN 3-Day and feel like you've just been intellectually violated and taken advantage of?

Cuz I sure do.

Is KAPLAN supposed to be more difficult than the actual exam?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Matthies on July 18, 2009, 03:40:11 PM
Anybody else take the KAPLAN 3-Day and feel like you've just been intellectually violated and taken advantage of?

Cuz I sure do.

Is KAPLAN supposed to be more difficult than the actual exam?

From what peopl;e who took our exam told me, the PMBR questions in thebooks/online were harder than the real MBE questions (same for barbri too). I have been taking PMBR questions, Barbri questions and the Adpapitbar questions. Adaptibar says they use only real, realsed MBE questions, I find thier easier than PMBR/Barbri.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 19, 2009, 04:45:32 PM
Anybody else take the KAPLAN 3-Day and feel like you've just been intellectually violated and taken advantage of?

Cuz I sure do.

Is KAPLAN supposed to be more difficult than the actual exam?


Yes.

see the following:   http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php/topic,88278.msg2337963.html#msg2337963

Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Nowhere Man on July 20, 2009, 08:00:17 AM
That 3 Day test was just murder

However the lecture was informative.

I have to review EVERY SINGLE question, so I can get some points on the day of the test!

Let's get these cards!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Kirk Lazarus on July 22, 2009, 09:37:47 PM
Yeah I hear both Barbri and Kaplan's questions are harder than the MBE questions.

The essay questions, at least on Barbri, are murder. hahah 5 days.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Miss P on July 22, 2009, 09:45:27 PM
The essay questions, at least on Barbri, are murder. hahah 5 days.

I am SO BAD at these! I take some comfort in the fact that I do a little better on the released questions.  Still, WTF with testing crimes like passing bad checks and the special status of cashiers' checks and stuff?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 23, 2009, 04:26:03 AM
Yeah I hear both Barbri and Kaplan's questions are harder than the MBE questions.

The essay questions, at least on Barbri, are murder. hahah 5 days.

Which state are you doing?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 23, 2009, 07:14:21 AM
The essay questions, at least on Barbri, are murder. hahah 5 days.

I am SO BAD at these! I take some comfort in the fact that I do a little better on the released questions.  Still, WTF with testing crimes like passing bad checks and the special status of cashiers' checks and stuff?


Bad checks? That sounds painfully familiar.  NY Summer '07 Bar perhaps?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Miss P on July 23, 2009, 01:03:15 PM
The essay questions, at least on Barbri, are murder. hahah 5 days.

I am SO BAD at these! I take some comfort in the fact that I do a little better on the released questions.  Still, WTF with testing crimes like passing bad checks and the special status of cashiers' checks and stuff?


Bad checks? That sounds painfully familiar.  NY Summer '07 Bar perhaps?

I think so!  It doesn't have a released date on it, but a friend who took the bar the same summer said he thought so too.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 28, 2009, 04:44:44 AM
Good luck to everyone!!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 28, 2009, 11:52:30 AM
Good luck to everyone!!

Ditto.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Matthies on July 28, 2009, 07:29:32 PM
exhausted
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: TruOne on July 29, 2009, 07:18:16 PM
"Dude, the MBE is actually easier than the BarBri and PMBR practice questions"

NO THE F&CK IT WASN'T!

The questions weren't as convoluted as BarBri or PMBR, in fact they were more straight-forward, but them suckers were different than anything BarBri had tested me on.

Thank God and 4 white folks, that I'm done!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Rudy Huckleberry on July 29, 2009, 07:43:12 PM
Hi folks. Here in CA, we have one day left. :'(
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on July 29, 2009, 08:57:28 PM
Keep it up!

In related news, I found out today that (7 mos after applying) I've been admitted to the DC Bar...w00t!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Nowhere Man on July 30, 2009, 05:54:48 PM
NY = check

NJ = check

Now we wait...
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: ForShizzle on July 30, 2009, 05:59:33 PM
I think I did well on the first four essays, but the last three killed me. Any thoughts? I would love to hear what some other people thought, might only make me paranoid, but knowing if I was on the same track as others will help me sleep tonight.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: ForShizzle on July 30, 2009, 06:01:35 PM
I think I did well on the first four essays, but the last three killed me. Any thoughts? I would love to hear what some other people thought, might only make me paranoid, but knowing if I was on the same track as others will help me sleep tonight.

Edit: Sorry, I meant specifically with the NJ bar.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Rudy Huckleberry on July 30, 2009, 06:35:20 PM
It's over. The CA bar exam is so weird.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Kirk Lazarus on July 30, 2009, 07:35:36 PM
I thought the MBE was hard. Anyone else feel this way?
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Matthies on July 31, 2009, 08:01:37 AM
I thought the MBE was hard. Anyone else feel this way?

I thought the morning MBE was hard I actually ran out of time with 7 questions left, the afternoon was easy I thought; I either killed it, or I fell for every wrong asnwer that seemed so right.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: | J | on July 31, 2009, 09:40:30 AM
I finished the CA bar yesterday.

I thought the MBE was easier than BarBri, but perhaps I bombed it and just don't know yet.

The first essays on T and Th sucked.  Malicious Prosecution?  WTF!?!!  And, I didn't do so hot in Con Law.  It's just too abstract for me I guess.  I made *&^% up.  Hopefully the *&^% I made up was better than the *&^% everyone else made up.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Miss P on July 31, 2009, 01:40:57 PM
I thought the MBE was hard. Anyone else feel this way?

I really did -- or at least they were different!  I was used to pretty much acing the BarBri questions and was relying on the MBE to carry me to bar passage.  I did not feel at all confident after the MBE.  I should have picked up a PMBR book or something, I think, and I definitely will if I have to retake in February. 

***

Congrats to all, and thank you again to our mentor-leaders in this thread!
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 31, 2009, 05:15:54 PM
I made *&^% up.  Hopefully the *&^% I made up was better than the *&^% everyone else made up.


Classic! Sage words.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on August 01, 2009, 08:01:31 AM
I was used to pretty much acing the BarBri questions and was relying on the MBE to carry me to bar passage.  I did not feel at all confident after the MBE.

Don't worry...that's how I felt too.

I made *&^% up.  Hopefully the *&^% I made up was better than the *&^% everyone else made up.


Classic! Sage words.

 :D indeed
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Dr. Balsenschaft on August 01, 2009, 08:10:17 AM
I thought the MBE was hard. Anyone else feel this way?

I thought the morning MBE was hard I actually ran out of time with 7 questions left, the afternoon was easy I thought; I either killed it, or I fell for every wrong asnwer that seemed so right.

I more or less agree with you.  I don't know if I'd go so far as to say the afternoon was easy, but I definitely thought it was easier. 
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 01, 2009, 09:06:27 AM
I thought the MBE was hard. Anyone else feel this way?

I thought the morning MBE was hard I actually ran out of time with 7 questions left, the afternoon was easy I thought; I either killed it, or I fell for every wrong asnwer that seemed so right.

We all felt the same way coming out. 

They split it up so that 1/2 of the test takers get the "easy" half in the morning, and some get it in the afternoon (so you can't look over your neighbor's shoulder).

I remember even after having done an insane amount of MBE questions before the exam, I still had to guess on at least half of those jokers, and there were some I just did not know at all.  But you gotta remember, everybody else feels the same way and they calibrate the MBE nation-wide so the odds are in your favor to pass.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Kirk Lazarus on August 01, 2009, 09:24:44 AM
Sands and Alci:

I've known you two for about 4 years now. I don't think you guys realize how much I rely on your advice and insight. It has always been very helpful. I just wanna say, I really appreciate it ( i know we all do). You guys are pretty awesome.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on August 01, 2009, 10:10:27 AM
Sands and Alci:

I've known you two for about 4 years now. I don't think you guys realize how much I rely on your advice and insight. It has always been very helpful. I just wanna say, I really appreciate it ( i know we all do). You guys are pretty awesome.

Hey no doubt, son. Glad to help out.
Title: Re: Memoirs of a Bar Examinee
Post by: A. on August 01, 2009, 08:35:37 PM
Sands and Alci:

I've known you two for about 4 years now. I don't think you guys realize how much I rely on your advice and insight. It has always been very helpful. I just wanna say, I really appreciate it ( i know we all do). You guys are pretty awesome.

Thanks dood.  Happy to help.  Glad to see that you also chip in regularly for the n00bs.