Law School Discussion

Deciding Where to Go => Choosing the Right Law School => Topic started by: ->Soon on May 14, 2007, 09:13:28 AM

Title: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: ->Soon on May 14, 2007, 09:13:28 AM
So, some people think its top school or nothing.

why?
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: iscoredawaitlist on May 14, 2007, 09:15:59 AM
please define top school.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: ->Soon on May 14, 2007, 09:18:51 AM
please define top school.

top 14...
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: ->Soon on May 14, 2007, 09:30:12 AM
perhaps

i dunno.   thats why im asking

if you look around enough, for some people, it seems more...
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: Johnny Stuffs His Mouth on May 14, 2007, 09:34:36 AM
It depends on the person. Personally, I feel I need to be at a top school because I feel that's both where I belong and what I deserve. I think this is a pretty common feeling in every profession, though.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: Journeyman on May 14, 2007, 09:35:19 AM
If you planning on being a SCOTUS clerk or V5 associate, I would imagine its pretty important....also if you have absolutely NO clue where you want to practice and have the whole map as an option.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: flyaway on May 14, 2007, 09:40:55 AM
If you're going to take the time out of your professional life and spend the money to do this, it seems that you would want to go somewhere that would give you the best opportunities afterward.  So, I guess I don't really get where you're going with this.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: ->Soon on May 14, 2007, 09:42:43 AM
just curious

some people need a BMW, for others a honda is fine.

I dont buy into the prestige thing, thats why Im curious.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: Johnny Stuffs His Mouth on May 14, 2007, 09:46:50 AM
just curious

some people need a BMW, for others a honda is fine.

I dont buy into the prestige thing, thats why Im curious.

To continue your car analogy, for a lot of people, the BMW isn't for themselves; it's to impress the ladies. In this analogy, the ladies are the hiring partners.

Of course, there are some people who want a Beemer because it's a Beemer (though you can and should do much better if that's your rationale). In that case, it's simply an acheivement in life, and there's nothing wrong with high aspirations.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: ->Soon on May 14, 2007, 09:52:46 AM
Im one of those people that always roots for the underdog, and it just seems like your selling out to the establishment.


but i guess alot of people want to be part of the establishment.

yuck...
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on May 14, 2007, 09:54:04 AM
It depends on the person. Personally, I feel I need to be at a top school because I feel that's both where I belong and what I deserve. I think this is a pretty common feeling in every profession, though.

Honestly, I felt that I definitely needed a top school bc a) that's what i felt belonged b) i went to an ivy ug and ppl usually go upwards in schools, not down.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: Johnny Stuffs His Mouth on May 14, 2007, 09:54:15 AM
Blue, it seems to me that the question you are asking is: if something is both necessary and sufficient to acheive a certain goal, why would one feel the "need" to go above and beyond that? Really, it seems what you're asking is: why do people have different wants and goals?

You use the BMW vs. Honda analogy, but why not use this one:

some people need to be lawyers, for others being a janitor is fine.

Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: ->Soon on May 14, 2007, 09:55:48 AM
i think people are overlooking the NEEDS portion

for some, its all or nothing.

I dont get into harvard, no other school will do.

end of story.

and there are some people on the board that have this attitude, and im curious why....
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: Johnny Stuffs His Mouth on May 14, 2007, 09:58:25 AM
For the same reason that some people NEED to be a lawyer, and no other profession will do.

Perhaps I really don't understand the question. Again, it seems like all you're asking is: why do different people have different "needs" (needs is in quotation marks because I doubt they are necessary to sustain life; they're more like goals)?
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: ->Soon on May 14, 2007, 10:02:22 AM
For the same reason that some people NEED to be a lawyer, and no other profession will do.

Perhaps I really don't understand the question. Again, it seems like all you're asking is: why do different people have different "needs" (needs is in quotation marks because I doubt they are necessary to sustain life; they're more like goals)?

perhaps i am

like i said, i see some people say if they dont get in, its the end of life.

i jsut cant comprehend that...
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: The Pookie on May 14, 2007, 10:02:54 AM
well i wanted to go to a top 14 becuase they have amazing job opporunties and i wanted geographic flexibility

its really as simple as that, at least for me. Also, any top 14 was fine with me or any national law school.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: ptown on May 14, 2007, 10:04:22 AM
For the same reason that some people NEED to be a lawyer, and no other profession will do.

Perhaps I really don't understand the question. Again, it seems like all you're asking is: why do different people have different "needs" (needs is in quotation marks because I doubt they are necessary to sustain life; they're more like goals)?

I think what he is getting at is what is the motivation behind the all or nothing mentality.  I can't quite say the profession analogy works there, as I don't think I've ever heard of someone saying that if they can't do a specific job, they they would rather be unemployed or perhaps die.

I think to answer the question as he is asking it, you need to assume that everyone going to ls really wants to be a lawyer.  I definately don't find that to be true, however.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: Journeyman on May 14, 2007, 10:04:27 AM
People NEED to go to a certain level of school because they have expectations for themselves. Judging from the type of people who go into law, we're born competitors. Even if we're only competing against ourselves, we're the kind of people who NEED to run 4 miles in 25 minutes when we jog, who NEED to make dean's list in the 8th semester, long after we've been accepted to our dream school, who NEED to go to a certain level of grad school. Some people can be happy with being mediocre (however you personally measure that), but I'll never be satisfied with good enough. I NEED to succeed. I NEED to wake up tomorrow knowing that I'm just a little bit better than I was yesterday.

This sounds like a reasonable rationale to me.  I personally wasn't a T14 or nothing person, but I'll admit that I passed up 2 full tuition scholarships, because I feel like I deserved a top 50 school, even if it meant taking on a crap load of debt.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: AlphaBusey on May 14, 2007, 10:04:36 AM
I NEED it to accrue the bank necessary to maintain my Vegas, coke and hookers lifestyle.  And then I'll need it even more to have the resources to hire Johnny to defend me after the inevitable federal indictments.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: skeeball on May 14, 2007, 10:06:05 AM
It depends on the person. Personally, I feel I need to be at a top school because I feel that's both where I belong and what I deserve. I think this is a pretty common feeling in every profession, though.

ppl usually go upwards in schools, not down.

I'm doing this.

I think you *need* to go to a top school if you have a spouse and need to stay in the area, and a T14 is the only school in town.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: Johnny Stuffs His Mouth on May 14, 2007, 10:08:33 AM
I NEED it to accrue the bank necessary to maintain my Vegas, cook and hookers lifestyle.  And then I'll need it even more to have the resources to hire Johnny to defend me after the inevitable federal indictments.

There's a 95% chance that you will be my new best friend ever soon.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: Johnny Stuffs His Mouth on May 14, 2007, 10:11:09 AM
Perhaps the profession analogy isn't perfect, but I believe a sports analogy is somewhat better: most professional athletes will tell you that a season that doesn't end in a championship is a failure, playoffs or no. I think the Macho Man is right: generally, the kinds of people going to law school are highly competitive people, and the kinds of people that *need* to go to top schools are even more competitive.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: AlphaBusey on May 14, 2007, 10:12:55 AM
I NEED it to accrue the bank necessary to maintain my Vegas, cook and hookers lifestyle.  And then I'll need it even more to have the resources to hire Johnny to defend me after the inevitable federal indictments.

There's a 95% chance that you will be my new best friend ever soon.

Good.  As long as, and this is an original Buseyism, friend means : Fellowship Resolves Indictment Equitably No Detainment
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: Johnny Stuffs His Mouth on May 14, 2007, 10:18:39 AM
I NEED it to accrue the bank necessary to maintain my Vegas, cook and hookers lifestyle.  And then I'll need it even more to have the resources to hire Johnny to defend me after the inevitable federal indictments.

There's a 95% chance that you will be my new best friend ever soon.

Good.  As long as, and this is an original Buseyism, friend means : Fellowship Resolves Indictment Equitably No Detainment

It blew my mind that friend is a 6 letter word. I read the first 5 things and was like "Whoa, there's more!"
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: Johnny Stuffs His Mouth on May 14, 2007, 10:19:59 AM
Again, Blue wants to focus on the phenomenon of certain people in which anything less than HYS is unacceptable and not worth attending. I don't think there's any argument that going to a top school is more often than not better.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: ptown on May 14, 2007, 10:31:19 AM
Going to a "top school" only makes sense.  People are always trying to attain the best possible in everything in life.  

For me, I feel like I've worked hard to get into this position and that I owe it to myself to attend a top school.  The types of jobs available to graduates of top schools seem to be superior to job prospects from "lower ranked" schools, and the pay seems to be better.  Basically, I like the idea of knowing that I'm not going to have any problem paying back my school loans after I graduate.  Also, I got a MUCH different feeling when visiting the "top" schools than I did visiting T2s and lower ranked T1s.  Im not an elitist by any means but I'd have to say that attending a top 15 law school presents different/better opportunities and experiences than lower ranked schools.  It would seem silly to attend anything other than the best that you can get into (I dont mean to differentiate between a few ranking spots, of course).


This is the same reason that I'd marry the hot guy with killer abs, a great personality, and a killer wit before I married the slob with a foot odor problem.

I don't think that is the question he is asking though.  If you didn't get into a top school would you not go at all?  That is his point (I think).

It isn't silly to not go to the best school you get into in every situation.  Some people arn't interested in moving across the country to go to a better school.  Personally, I passed up some higher ranked options for one that would keep me closer to my wife and would leave me with less debt.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: skeeball on May 14, 2007, 10:35:55 AM
This is the same reason that I'd marry the hot guy with killer abs, a great personality, and a killer wit before I married the slob with a foot odor problem.

So going to a T2 = marrying a slob wit a foot odor?  ???
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: AlphaBusey on May 14, 2007, 10:36:17 AM
I NEED it to accrue the bank necessary to maintain my Vegas, cook and hookers lifestyle.  And then I'll need it even more to have the resources to hire Johnny to defend me after the inevitable federal indictments.

There's a 95% chance that you will be my new best friend ever soon.

Good.  As long as, and this is an original Buseyism, friend means : Fellowship Resolves Indictment Equitably No Detainment

It blew my mind that friend is a 6 letter word. I read the first 5 things and was like "Whoa, there's more!"

Blame the Germans, but at least we didn't get their noun structure.  Welcome to the Sanfranciscogoldengatebridge!  Ugh.

And to get back on topic: I'm sure there's at least one out there, but is it really much more frequently than as an aberrant exception that someone passes on law school simply because they didn't get in to HYS?
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: skeeball on May 14, 2007, 10:37:55 AM
I NEED it to accrue the bank necessary to maintain my Vegas, cook and hookers lifestyle.  And then I'll need it even more to have the resources to hire Johnny to defend me after the inevitable federal indictments.

There's a 95% chance that you will be my new best friend ever soon.

Good.  As long as, and this is an original Buseyism, friend means : Fellowship Resolves Indictment Equitably No Detainment

It blew my mind that friend is a 6 letter word. I read the first 5 things and was like "Whoa, there's more!"

Blame the Germans, but at least we didn't get their noun structure.  Welcome to the Sanfranciscogoldengatebridge!  Ugh.

And to get back on topic: I'm sure there's at least one out there, but is it really much more frequently than as an aberrant exception that someone passes on law school simply because they didn't get in to HYS?

People on this board post about passing on law school because they didn't get into the T14 all the time.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: Johnny Stuffs His Mouth on May 14, 2007, 10:39:30 AM
I NEED it to accrue the bank necessary to maintain my Vegas, cook and hookers lifestyle.  And then I'll need it even more to have the resources to hire Johnny to defend me after the inevitable federal indictments.

There's a 95% chance that you will be my new best friend ever soon.

Good.  As long as, and this is an original Buseyism, friend means : Fellowship Resolves Indictment Equitably No Detainment

It blew my mind that friend is a 6 letter word. I read the first 5 things and was like "Whoa, there's more!"

Blame the Germans, but at least we didn't get their noun structure.  Welcome to the Sanfranciscogoldengatebridge!  Ugh.

And to get back on topic: I'm sure there's at least one out there, but is it really much more frequently than as an aberrant exception that someone passes on law school simply because they didn't get in to HYS?

People on this board post about passing on law school because they didn't get into the T14 all the time.

Pass entirely, or wait a year?

And really, I can understand that mentality. Law school is a huge investment; you can't really blame someone for deciding not to spend 150k if they don't think it's worth it.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: AlphaBusey on May 14, 2007, 10:41:06 AM
I NEED it to accrue the bank necessary to maintain my Vegas, cook and hookers lifestyle.  And then I'll need it even more to have the resources to hire Johnny to defend me after the inevitable federal indictments.

There's a 95% chance that you will be my new best friend ever soon.

Good.  As long as, and this is an original Buseyism, friend means : Fellowship Resolves Indictment Equitably No Detainment

It blew my mind that friend is a 6 letter word. I read the first 5 things and was like "Whoa, there's more!"

Blame the Germans, but at least we didn't get their noun structure.  Welcome to the Sanfranciscogoldengatebridge!  Ugh.

And to get back on topic: I'm sure there's at least one out there, but is it really much more frequently than as an aberrant exception that someone passes on law school simply because they didn't get in to HYS?

People on this board post about passing on law school because they didn't get into the T14 all the time.

Indeed, which is why I asked specifically about HYS.  Slightly different situation, I think.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: The Pookie on May 14, 2007, 10:41:23 AM
well, i must be honest,

if i didn't get into any T14s, i would've retook the lsats and reapplied next year.

why? I'm young and i know that law is going to be my primary career and for various reasons I *need* geographic flexibility. I also have zero contacts/networks since my parents are both teachers from a foreign country and most of my friends are going into i-banking/engineering/consulting/teaching.

However, for many people, that's not true. If law is your second career, you have the networks and know-how to succeed even if you don't go to a T14. awesome! wish I was you, but I dont' have that kind of jumping-off point.

maybe i don't *need* to go to a T14, but for me, it makes the most economic and pratical sense.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: Johnny Stuffs His Mouth on May 14, 2007, 10:55:03 AM
I'm just curious as to where the cutoff is for an acceptable "if I don't get in X, then screw it" mentality. HYS is unacceptable; what about t14? t20? Tier 1? Tier 2 or better? At what point can you fall short of your goals, be unhappy about it, and have it be acceptable to the public?
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: flyaway on May 14, 2007, 11:08:34 AM
For the same reason that some people NEED to be a lawyer, and no other profession will do.

Perhaps I really don't understand the question. Again, it seems like all you're asking is: why do different people have different "needs" (needs is in quotation marks because I doubt they are necessary to sustain life; they're more like goals)?

perhaps i am

like i said, i see some people say if they dont get in, its the end of life.

i jsut cant comprehend that...

People generally try to attain the goals that they set, and get disappointed if they miss.  For some people their goal was a T14, so they will be upset if they don't get in.  Personally, I wonder if some of those people had actually set reasonable goals or not...

For many people though, their goals weren't T14.  There are plenty of people here who are going to be happy at their T1 or T2, but would have been pretty upset if they'd only gotten into a few T4s and nothing else because they would have missed their own goals of a T1 or T2. 

Others had goals such as: I must go to Law School in New Orleans because that's where my SO's job is.  Then they'll be pretty upset if they don't get into Tulane or Loyala. 

As for the people you're thinking about, they probably are so distraught because they've built the T14 up so high and mighty in their minds, and have been focusing on those schools for years, trying to craft their resume and GPA just so, that it can be especially disturbing to break down such a built up goal.  For me, I applied to law school on a whim with only a few months of prep.  Others have been focused on this for years. 

Think of the gymnast who wakes up at 4am every morning to practice before school for years and years.  She's doing great, working hard, rumored to be one of the best.  Her goal is to compete in the Olympics, and it's actually getting close enough to taste.  Then the day before the Olympic trials she breaks her leg and can't compete.  Now she has to sit out the trials, and of course the Olympics.  Sure, she can heal and compete in nationals and whatnot for the next 4 years, but it's not the same.  And in the world of Olympic gymnasts, she's probably be too old and gangly to have a decent shot at the next trials.  Maybe she will, but that still means putting her dreams on hold for 4 more years.  She definitely has a right to be upset. 

I love you very much for using a gymnast example.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: Johnny Stuffs His Mouth on May 14, 2007, 11:09:24 AM
I'm just curious as to where the cutoff is for an acceptable "if I don't get in X, then screw it" mentality. HYS is unacceptable; what about t14? t20? Tier 1? Tier 2 or better? At what point can you fall short of your goals, be unhappy about it, and have it be acceptable to the public?

That really is personal. For some people, doing your best is IU-B. For some people it's UVa. For others it's CCN. Some people get into Yale without ever having been challenged. It's about personal expectations, not universal ones.

Well, that's sort of the point, since this thread is devoted to the idea that certain mentalities are unacceptable. I've always been a defender of people who were unsatisfied with 175's. Hell, if Tiger Woods is allowed to be unhappy with 2nd place, why can't the rest of us?
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: skeeball on May 14, 2007, 11:17:32 AM
I NEED it to accrue the bank necessary to maintain my Vegas, cook and hookers lifestyle.  And then I'll need it even more to have the resources to hire Johnny to defend me after the inevitable federal indictments.

There's a 95% chance that you will be my new best friend ever soon.

Good.  As long as, and this is an original Buseyism, friend means : Fellowship Resolves Indictment Equitably No Detainment

It blew my mind that friend is a 6 letter word. I read the first 5 things and was like "Whoa, there's more!"

Blame the Germans, but at least we didn't get their noun structure.  Welcome to the Sanfranciscogoldengatebridge!  Ugh.

And to get back on topic: I'm sure there's at least one out there, but is it really much more frequently than as an aberrant exception that someone passes on law school simply because they didn't get in to HYS?

People on this board post about passing on law school because they didn't get into the T14 all the time.

Pass entirely, or wait a year?

And really, I can understand that mentality. Law school is a huge investment; you can't really blame someone for deciding not to spend 150k if they don't think it's worth it.

Yeah, but I don't understand the logic of being happy practicing law making $100K, but not if you're only making $60K. If you're unhappy being an attorney, is that extra $40K really going to make a difference?
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: Johnny Stuffs His Mouth on May 14, 2007, 11:22:58 AM
I NEED it to accrue the bank necessary to maintain my Vegas, cook and hookers lifestyle.  And then I'll need it even more to have the resources to hire Johnny to defend me after the inevitable federal indictments.

There's a 95% chance that you will be my new best friend ever soon.

Good.  As long as, and this is an original Buseyism, friend means : Fellowship Resolves Indictment Equitably No Detainment

It blew my mind that friend is a 6 letter word. I read the first 5 things and was like "Whoa, there's more!"

Blame the Germans, but at least we didn't get their noun structure.  Welcome to the Sanfranciscogoldengatebridge!  Ugh.

And to get back on topic: I'm sure there's at least one out there, but is it really much more frequently than as an aberrant exception that someone passes on law school simply because they didn't get in to HYS?

People on this board post about passing on law school because they didn't get into the T14 all the time.

Pass entirely, or wait a year?

And really, I can understand that mentality. Law school is a huge investment; you can't really blame someone for deciding not to spend 150k if they don't think it's worth it.

Yeah, but I don't understand the logic of being happy practicing law making $100K, but not if you're only making $60K. If you're unhappy being an attorney, is that extra $40K really going to make a difference?

It absolutely does. Why would you invest 150k if your salary would be comparable to another job had you invested 0?
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: pastor of muppets on May 14, 2007, 11:23:28 AM
just curious

some people need a BMW, for others a honda is fine.

I dont buy into the prestige thing, thats why Im curious.

To continue your car analogy, for a lot of people, the BMW isn't for themselves; it's to impress the ladies. In this analogy, the ladies are the hiring partners.

Of course, there are some people who want a Beemer because it's a Beemer (though you can and should do much better if that's your rationale). In that case, it's simply an acheivement in life, and there's nothing wrong with high aspirations.

But if you get a lady just because she likes your Beemer, then she is a gold-digging wh0re.  Good luck with that.   ;D
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: TimothyLeary on May 14, 2007, 11:31:19 AM
Not me.  I turned down top 25 schools to go to a T2. I did feel pressured by the internet message community to attend a top school, which is the only reason I had submitted some of those applications at all. But in the end, I realized that I just don't need to go to one.  It would be nice, but it would rather have the money in my pocket when I'm a young attorney with a young family as well as the opportunity to take a position at a firm with a better QOL than biglaw. 
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: ptown on May 14, 2007, 11:33:30 AM
I NEED it to accrue the bank necessary to maintain my Vegas, cook and hookers lifestyle.  And then I'll need it even more to have the resources to hire Johnny to defend me after the inevitable federal indictments.

There's a 95% chance that you will be my new best friend ever soon.

Good.  As long as, and this is an original Buseyism, friend means : Fellowship Resolves Indictment Equitably No Detainment

It blew my mind that friend is a 6 letter word. I read the first 5 things and was like "Whoa, there's more!"

Blame the Germans, but at least we didn't get their noun structure.  Welcome to the Sanfranciscogoldengatebridge!  Ugh.

And to get back on topic: I'm sure there's at least one out there, but is it really much more frequently than as an aberrant exception that someone passes on law school simply because they didn't get in to HYS?

People on this board post about passing on law school because they didn't get into the T14 all the time.

Pass entirely, or wait a year?

And really, I can understand that mentality. Law school is a huge investment; you can't really blame someone for deciding not to spend 150k if they don't think it's worth it.

Yeah, but I don't understand the logic of being happy practicing law making $100K, but not if you're only making $60K. If you're unhappy being an attorney, is that extra $40K really going to make a difference?

It absolutely does. Why would you invest 150k if your salary would be comparable to another job had you invested 0?

How can you be certain that they could have made 60k before?  Most people with a bachelors arn't doing that a few years out.  If they are, they won't have very far to grow.

Also, what if that other job totally sucks ass?
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: goosenesque on May 14, 2007, 11:38:51 AM
It depends on the person. Personally, I feel I need to be at a top school because I feel that's both where I belong and what I deserve. I think this is a pretty common feeling in every profession, though.

Honestly, I felt that I definitely needed a top school bc a) that's what i felt belonged b) i went to an ivy ug and ppl usually go upwards in schools, not down.

But how is it possible to go upwards if you're already at the top?  Is going "up" from one Ivy to another that important?  Not trying to be cute or anything, just curious about your train of thought.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: The Pookie on May 14, 2007, 11:40:06 AM


It depends on the person. Personally, I feel I need to be at a top school because I feel that's both where I belong and what I deserve. I think this is a pretty common feeling in every profession, though.

Honestly, I felt that I definitely needed a top school bc a) that's what i felt belonged b) i went to an ivy ug and ppl usually go upwards in schools, not down.

But how is it possible to go upwards if you're already at the top?  Is going "up" from one Ivy to another that important?

this is why i try never to be at the very top. There's nowhere to go but dooooooooown.

law of gravity.

:)
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: ->Soon on May 14, 2007, 11:57:08 AM
I'm just curious as to where the cutoff is for an acceptable "if I don't get in X, then screw it" mentality. HYS is unacceptable; what about t14? t20? Tier 1? Tier 2 or better? At what point can you fall short of your goals, be unhappy about it, and have it be acceptable to the public?

thats one reason i didnt want to put a cut off number in.

>:(
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: skeeball on May 14, 2007, 12:26:32 PM
I NEED it to accrue the bank necessary to maintain my Vegas, cook and hookers lifestyle.  And then I'll need it even more to have the resources to hire Johnny to defend me after the inevitable federal indictments.

There's a 95% chance that you will be my new best friend ever soon.

Good.  As long as, and this is an original Buseyism, friend means : Fellowship Resolves Indictment Equitably No Detainment

It blew my mind that friend is a 6 letter word. I read the first 5 things and was like "Whoa, there's more!"

Blame the Germans, but at least we didn't get their noun structure.  Welcome to the Sanfranciscogoldengatebridge!  Ugh.

And to get back on topic: I'm sure there's at least one out there, but is it really much more frequently than as an aberrant exception that someone passes on law school simply because they didn't get in to HYS?

People on this board post about passing on law school because they didn't get into the T14 all the time.

Pass entirely, or wait a year?

And really, I can understand that mentality. Law school is a huge investment; you can't really blame someone for deciding not to spend 150k if they don't think it's worth it.

Yeah, but I don't understand the logic of being happy practicing law making $100K, but not if you're only making $60K. If you're unhappy being an attorney, is that extra $40K really going to make a difference?

It absolutely does. Why would you invest 150k if your salary would be comparable to another job had you invested 0?

Because you want to be a lawyer! Sure, some T14 grads start with 6 figure salaries, but going to law school because you think it'll make you rich is a bad, bad move.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: Ersatz on May 14, 2007, 02:08:28 PM
I'm with pookie on this one - before applying, and before even taking the LSAT, I drew the line for myself at T14 schools. There are many people for whom T2-4 schools are fine, and I'm not one to make a blanket statement that if you are not at a T14, you shouldn't be going to law school. Hell, the firm I work for now has many Hastings grads, some people from Boalt, a handful of people from Loyola, and even a couple of people from Golden Gate - that's an incredible mix of tiers that's present at all levels of the firm, from associates to counsel to equity partners. So going to a less-than T14 school clearly does not preclude you from finding gainful employment.

The difference for me is that 1) I'm risk-averse, and don't want to spend 3 years stressing about staying in the top 50%, top 25%, top 10%, or whatever to land a good job, and 2) there are some things that I want to do like clerking that are incredibly more difficult to do from a lower-tier school. There are some people for whom that doesn't matter, so they are content to go to, say, a top-50 school. That's fine.

Also - are there really any people that say Harvard / Yale / Stanford or bust? I can't believe that.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: euphory on May 14, 2007, 02:42:57 PM

It depends on the person. Personally, I feel I need to be at a top school because I feel that's both where I belong and what I deserve. I think this is a pretty common feeling in every profession, though.

Honestly, I felt that I definitely needed a top school bc a) that's what i felt belonged b) i went to an ivy ug and ppl usually go upwards in schools, not down.



my thoughts exactly.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: ->Soon on May 14, 2007, 02:55:27 PM
hmmm, wonder if there is any significance where so far, the women feel they need a top school more than the men?
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: RollerOfBigCigars on May 14, 2007, 03:05:51 PM
I am actually considering turning down substantial scholarships to T20 schools and reapplying next year with an LSAT retake and an earlier application. I still don't think I could answer the OP's question though.

Did I finish high enough in my graduating class that I expected to attend a T10 school? Yes.
Did I feel that I panicked and underperformed on the LSAT? Yes.
Am I less than 5 years out of college? Yes.
Did my PS stink? Yes.
Am I confused that some T20s would give me huge scholarships even though I've (yet) to be admitted to a T14? Yes.
Is this format getting old? Yes.

I want to clerk, possibly teach, and I think, at the worst, I end up getting accepted and waitlisted at the same batch of schools next year possibly without the scholarships. The financial commitment, as well as the one-time only nature of your education, support some of these feelings. My family and friends might think I'm neurotic or immature, but, hell, I am neurotic and a little immature.

I may not even reapply, but those are the thoughts of someone very close to doing so, with options comparable to the "T14." If I did reapply and didn't get into a T10/T14 school, I'd still go whatever program I liked the most, so, to some extent, it's not a top school or bust thing for me. I want to know that I put forward the best application I could have, gave myself the best shot and right now I don't feel that way.

on another note, our sample size is just a bit too small to be making conclusions with regard to the differing expectations of men as opposed to women.
 
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: Johnny Stuffs His Mouth on May 14, 2007, 03:09:55 PM
hmmm, wonder if there is any significance where so far, the women feel they need a top school more than the men?

Which route are you going with this? "Women have more to prove than men" or "Women are more irrational than men"? Either way I'm not sure it really means much. Everyone has goals, and it would shock me if the goals of men and women were all that different. Women seek excellence while men seek mediocrity? I doubt it.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: Journeyman on May 14, 2007, 03:10:36 PM
I'm just curious as to where the cutoff is for an acceptable "if I don't get in X, then screw it" mentality. HYS is unacceptable; what about t14? t20? Tier 1? Tier 2 or better? At what point can you fall short of your goals, be unhappy about it, and have it be acceptable to the public?

That really is personal. For some people, doing your best is IU-B. For some people it's UVa. For others it's CCN. Some people get into Yale without ever having been challenged. It's about personal expectations, not universal ones.

Personal hit?   To be honest there was only one T20 school I wanted to go to from the outset, maybe two.  I don't like being around snobby people all the freaking time, I did that for 3 years.  I'm sure several of you T14'ers aren't but that was the impression I got before I started applying.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: ->Soon on May 14, 2007, 03:11:09 PM
true, but these polls never get huge numbers of votes, so u take what u can get...
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: dougiefresh on May 14, 2007, 05:39:48 PM

Personal hit?   To be honest there was only one T20 school I wanted to go to from the outset, maybe two.  I don't like being around snobby people all the freaking time, I did that for 3 years.  I'm sure several of you T14'ers aren't but that was the impression I got before I started applying.

Haha amen my friend.  I think you'll find midwesterners are a lot more grounded and friendly in general than the UVa UG types from the East Coast/NOVA
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: boulevardier on May 15, 2007, 08:45:02 AM
Shut up.

Stupid generalization.



Personal hit?   To be honest there was only one T20 school I wanted to go to from the outset, maybe two.  I don't like being around snobby people all the freaking time, I did that for 3 years.  I'm sure several of you T14'ers aren't but that was the impression I got before I started applying.

Haha amen my friend.  I think you'll find midwesterners are a lot more grounded and friendly in general than the UVa UG types from the East Coast/NOVA
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: Johnny Stuffs His Mouth on May 15, 2007, 09:00:52 AM
Sounds like midwesterners are snobby about their non-snobbery.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: AlphaBusey on May 15, 2007, 09:09:10 AM
Sounds like midwesterners are snobby about their non-snobbery.

Nah, midwest just plain sucks.  But luckily, I've only got 2 months to go.  ;D
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: Johnny Stuffs His Mouth on May 15, 2007, 09:11:31 AM
Sounds like midwesterners are snobby about their non-snobbery.

Nah, midwest just plain sucks.  But luckily, I've only got 2 months to go.  ;D

This is going to be the greatest 3 years of our lives.

And while I'm an East Coaster for life, maybe, one thing I like about the Midwest: no natural disasters, as long as you're out of tornado alley, which Midwest Proper probably is. Of course, this is balanced by not having anything interesting to do.

"But Ohio has more 'big cities' than any other state!"

Shut up.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: ->Soon on May 15, 2007, 09:17:09 AM
Sounds like midwesterners are snobby about their non-snobbery.

Nah, midwest just plain sucks.  But luckily, I've only got 2 months to go.  ;D

This is going to be the greatest 3 years of our lives.

And while I'm an East Coaster for life, maybe, one thing I like about the Midwest: no natural disasters, as long as you're out of tornado alley, which Midwest Proper probably is. Of course, this is balanced by not having anything interesting to do.

"But Ohio has more 'big cities' than any other state!"

Shut up.

not texas

or cali...
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: AlphaBusey on May 15, 2007, 09:18:26 AM
Sounds like midwesterners are snobby about their non-snobbery.

Nah, midwest just plain sucks.  But luckily, I've only got 2 months to go.  ;D

This is going to be the greatest 3 years of our lives.

And while I'm an East Coaster for life, maybe, one thing I like about the Midwest: no natural disasters, as long as you're out of tornado alley, which Midwest Proper probably is. Of course, this is balanced by not having anything interesting to do.

"But Ohio has more 'big cities' than any other state!"

Shut up.

Whoever makes that argument should hang themselves.  Cleveland is awful.  It smells.  The only cities that smell worse are Akron and Youngstown, but that's what you get when you're lined by tire plants.  I've lived my whole life in Columbus, and it is constantly referred to as a "nice place to raise a family", which I am pretty sure is code for "no cool *&^% ever happens here".  And Cincinnati, well, it's called Cinci-tucky for a reason.  In short, Ohio blows.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: Jihad_Jesus on May 15, 2007, 09:23:30 AM
Worst poll ever.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: iscoredawaitlist on May 15, 2007, 09:39:22 AM
Sounds like midwesterners are snobby about their non-snobbery.

Nah, midwest just plain sucks.  But luckily, I've only got 2 months to go.  ;D

This is going to be the greatest 3 years of our lives.

And while I'm an East Coaster for life, maybe, one thing I like about the Midwest: no natural disasters, as long as you're out of tornado alley, which Midwest Proper probably is. Of course, this is balanced by not having anything interesting to do.

"But Ohio has more 'big cities' than any other state!"

Shut up.

who actually says this? It's completely false...
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: Johnny Stuffs His Mouth on May 15, 2007, 09:41:54 AM
Sounds like midwesterners are snobby about their non-snobbery.

Nah, midwest just plain sucks.  But luckily, I've only got 2 months to go.  ;D

This is going to be the greatest 3 years of our lives.

And while I'm an East Coaster for life, maybe, one thing I like about the Midwest: no natural disasters, as long as you're out of tornado alley, which Midwest Proper probably is. Of course, this is balanced by not having anything interesting to do.

"But Ohio has more 'big cities' than any other state!"

Shut up.

who actually says this? It's completely false...

I don't remember what the argument was... maybe most metropolitan areas of a certain size, or something.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: skeeball on May 15, 2007, 09:42:18 AM
Sounds like midwesterners are snobby about their non-snobbery.

This is probably true to some extent.

We do have natural disasters--there was a whole NYT piece today about the flooding problems in my hometown. And should a big storm hit this city, your electricity will go out and you won't get it back for 7-10.

But gas is way cheap.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: Johnny Stuffs His Mouth on May 15, 2007, 09:47:28 AM
Sounds like midwesterners are snobby about their non-snobbery.

This is probably true to some extent.

We do have natural disasters--there was a whole NYT piece today about the flooding problems in my hometown. And should a big storm hit this city, your electricity will go out and you won't get it back for 7-10.

But gas is way cheap.

That's good! It's always nice to be able to drive to the... store. And the... farm. Oh, and the... other store.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: AlphaBusey on May 15, 2007, 09:49:29 AM
Sounds like midwesterners are snobby about their non-snobbery.

This is probably true to some extent.

We do have natural disasters--there was a whole NYT piece today about the flooding problems in my hometown. And should a big storm hit this city, your electricity will go out and you won't get it back for 7-10.

But gas is way cheap.

That's good! It's always nice to be able to drive to the... store. And the... farm. Oh, and the... other store.

Gas isn't cheap in my corner of the midwest.  I paid 3.51/gallon filling up before work today.  Yikes!
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: skeeball on May 15, 2007, 09:57:54 AM
That's good! It's always nice to be able to drive to the... store. And the... farm. Oh, and the... other store.

Since when does living in the Midwest = living on a farm?

I live in a city with three pro-sports teams and a T20 law school!

Gas isn't cheap in my corner of the midwest.  I paid 3.51/gallon filling up before work today.  Yikes!

It's $2.96 in my neighborhood.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: iscoredawaitlist on May 15, 2007, 10:00:03 AM
That's good! It's always nice to be able to drive to the... store. And the... farm. Oh, and the... other store.

Since when does living in the Midwest = living on a farm?

I live in a city with three pro-sports teams and a T20 law school!

Gas isn't cheap in my corner of the midwest.  I paid 3.51/gallon filling up before work today.  Yikes!

It's $2.96 in my neighborhood.

and the highest murder rate in the country? ;)
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: Johnny Stuffs His Mouth on May 15, 2007, 10:02:12 AM
That's good! It's always nice to be able to drive to the... store. And the... farm. Oh, and the... other store.

Since when does living in the Midwest = living on a farm?

I live in a city with three pro-sports teams and a T20 law school!

Gas isn't cheap in my corner of the midwest.  I paid 3.51/gallon filling up before work today.  Yikes!

It's $2.96 in my neighborhood.

and the highest murder rate in the country? ;)

St. Louis has a high murder rate? I had no idea.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: skeeball on May 15, 2007, 10:04:10 AM
That's good! It's always nice to be able to drive to the... store. And the... farm. Oh, and the... other store.

Since when does living in the Midwest = living on a farm?

I live in a city with three pro-sports teams and a T20 law school!

Gas isn't cheap in my corner of the midwest.  I paid 3.51/gallon filling up before work today.  Yikes!

It's $2.96 in my neighborhood.

and the highest murder rate in the country? ;)

St. Louis has a high murder rate? I had no idea.

Um....

St. Louis COUNTY is very nice. You don't want to actually live IN the city...
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: iscoredawaitlist on May 15, 2007, 10:07:33 AM
i was just giving you a hard time. i've lived in DC and Dallas, both of which have had that honor at some point in the recent past. I've liked and felt safe in both cities.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: TeresaPinfold on May 15, 2007, 12:33:29 PM
Well, I need to go to a top law school because I am not sure if I want to go at all, and better law schools have more value to trump opportunity costs. Going to YHS might be better than all my alternatives (working, a different graduate school, becoming a hermit, whatever), but Duke or Virginia likely isn't, in my view. Requirement isn't sufficiency, however - I am still not sure if I would go to ANY law school. Applications are fairly cheap, and the LSAT is enjoyable for me, so there's not a big risk involved with he process, whatever my ultimate decision. I guess I didn't really answer the question of what "type of person", but I suppose the type that shares my attribute of being somewhat ambivalent about law school in general.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: iscoredawaitlist on May 15, 2007, 05:21:39 PM
Well, I need to go to a top law school because I am not sure if I want to go at all, and better law schools have more value to trump opportunity costs. Going to YHS might be better than all my alternatives (working, a different graduate school, becoming a hermit, whatever), but Duke or Virginia likely isn't, in my view. Requirement isn't sufficiency, however - I am still not sure if I would go to ANY law school. Applications are fairly cheap, and the LSAT is enjoyable for me, so there's not a big risk involved with he process, whatever my ultimate decision. I guess I didn't really answer the question of what "type of person", but I suppose the type that shares my attribute of being somewhat ambivalent about law school in general.

i'm not really sure I get this. If you're not sure law school/law is what you want to do, wouldn't it make sense to take less debt? I don't think your non-law options are significantly less coming from UVa versus Yale. But maybe i'm wrong?
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: dougiefresh on May 15, 2007, 05:29:44 PM
Shut up.

Stupid generalization.



Personal hit?   To be honest there was only one T20 school I wanted to go to from the outset, maybe two.  I don't like being around snobby people all the freaking time, I did that for 3 years.  I'm sure several of you T14'ers aren't but that was the impression I got before I started applying.

Haha amen my friend.  I think you'll find midwesterners are a lot more grounded and friendly in general than the UVa UG types from the East Coast/NOVA

1) I said "in general" dumba$$, so of course it's a generalization and not always the case
2) Since he and I have the same view of East Coast people from UVa (having both gone there), I was saying he'll probably have the same view I do in regards to Midwesterners.
3) I wasn't talking about the whole East Coast, just the UVa UG population that draws from it
4) Considering how much everyone knocks the Midwest, I think it's only fair to defend it, and it wouldn't be snobby to do so.  The culture is definitely more laidback than the East Coast IN GENERAL.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: lovethelaw2010 on May 15, 2007, 05:47:04 PM
People NEED to go to a certain level of school because they have expectations for themselves. Judging from the type of people who go into law, we're born competitors. Even if we're only competing against ourselves, we're the kind of people who NEED to run 4 miles in 25 minutes when we jog, who NEED to make dean's list in the 8th semester, long after we've been accepted to our dream school, who NEED to go to a certain level of grad school. Some people can be happy with being mediocre (however you personally measure that), but I'll never be satisfied with being "good enough." I NEED to succeed. I NEED to wake up tomorrow knowing that I'm just a little bit better than I was yesterday. That's why I refused to put down a seat deposit at a school below the T6. That was my measuring stick, and I wouldn't have been happy at a T1 school.

And then you die
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: TeresaPinfold on May 15, 2007, 06:27:04 PM
Well, I need to go to a top law school because I am not sure if I want to go at all, and better law schools have more value to trump opportunity costs. Going to YHS might be better than all my alternatives (working, a different graduate school, becoming a hermit, whatever), but Duke or Virginia likely isn't, in my view. Requirement isn't sufficiency, however - I am still not sure if I would go to ANY law school. Applications are fairly cheap, and the LSAT is enjoyable for me, so there's not a big risk involved with he process, whatever my ultimate decision. I guess I didn't really answer the question of what "type of person", but I suppose the type that shares my attribute of being somewhat ambivalent about law school in general.

i'm not really sure I get this. If you're not sure law school/law is what you want to do, wouldn't it make sense to take less debt? I don't think your non-law options are significantly less coming from UVa versus Yale. But maybe i'm wrong?
Well, if I go to law school, I will definitely practice law. The decision will come before that.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: dougiefresh on May 15, 2007, 07:24:28 PM
ilovelaw - why did you edit?  your comment was pretty great with just "and then you die" haha
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: lovethelaw2010 on May 15, 2007, 07:45:40 PM
LOL I reread it and then wanted to add some.  I'll change it back just for you.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: Towelie on May 16, 2007, 08:36:18 AM
Though I haven't read any of the other answers, I don't think anyone needs to go to a top school, but there are people who will only go to a top school or nothing else. These people are usually broke or very risk adverse and only want to go to law school if they are SURE it will pay off financially - something only top schools can legitimately promise. Also, people who already have good jobs or job offers won't want to leave unless it is for a top school.

If all you desire is to become a lawyer then no person NEEDS to go to a top school.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: ě on May 17, 2007, 03:27:49 AM
"need" cannot ever stand alone.  it must always be accompanied with "in order to..."

Yes, it most certainly can. I do not "need" to explain why I feel a certain way. If I feel the "need" to go pee right now, I don't "need" to tell you that is because I just drank a pint of beer. I could, and it would add extra information, but I certainly do not NEED to do so.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: iscoredawaitlist on May 17, 2007, 08:50:48 AM
"need" cannot ever stand alone.  it must always be accompanied with "in order to..."

Yes, it most certainly can. I do not "need" to explain why I feel a certain way. If I feel the "need" to go pee right now, I don't "need" to tell you that is because I just drank a pint of beer. I could, and it would add extra information, but I certainly do not NEED to do so.

that's funny. last night when i was thinking about responding to that post, I started using a peeing analogy.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: law_dawg_07 on May 17, 2007, 09:03:10 AM
I got into a T14 school but I chose not to go.  Price was a determining factor.  $120,000 for tuition vs. $30,000 for a school that was 20 slots away.  Could not justify going into that much debt just for the name (which is pretty much what it boils down to). 
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: fowles on May 17, 2007, 09:03:18 AM
"need" cannot ever stand alone.  it must always be accompanied with "in order to..."

for example,

the following statement makes sense:

"i NEED to go to a top law school IN ORDER TO have a decent chance of clerking for the second circuit."

the following statement does not make sense:

"i NEED to go to a top law school."

the following statement makes sense:

"i NEED oxygen IN ORDER TO not suffocate."

the following statement does not make sense without the parens:

"i NEED oxygen (IN ORDER TO not suffocate)."

sometimes the "in order to" part of the statement is obvious.  sometimes it's not.

The NEED . . . IN ORDER TO structure implies rational, well reasoned needs. I seriously doubt this is the case for needing to go to a top law school.

Seconded.  And the previous example does fit into this rational structure.  As in, "I need to pee...in order to relieve the pressure building against the walls of my bladder."  Though this second part is normally implied. 
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: ě on May 17, 2007, 09:03:45 AM
Well Randy...

"I need to go to a top school in order to get any form of decent employment, because I'm a feminine hygiene product bag a-hole nobody would hire without school prestige"

I found one type of people that do need it :) They're called xoxo'ers.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: Towelie on May 17, 2007, 12:32:14 PM
Well Randy...

"I need to go to a top school in order to get any form of decent employment, because I'm a feminine hygiene product bag a-hole nobody would hire without school prestige"

I found one type of people that do need it :) They're called xoxo'ers.

That's definitely true - the worse your personality the better the school you need to go to.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: ->Soon on November 27, 2007, 09:57:42 AM
this seems an appropriate bump.
Title: Re: What type of person NEEDS to go to a Top School?
Post by: Hannibal on November 27, 2007, 04:03:49 PM
I need to get into a top school because I am would be leaving a 90k/yr job to change careers and I have to feel like this is a step forward towards world domination and not starting over.