Law School Discussion

Specific Groups => Minority and Non-Traditional Law Students => Topic started by: 1654134681665465 on May 04, 2007, 06:42:25 PM

Title: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 04, 2007, 06:42:25 PM
I am posting this under this thread b/c I didn't quite know where else to put it.  Currently there are over 20 states that offer in-state tuition to illegal immigrants.  To me this seems totally unfair that someone who is not even a citizen of this country gets in-state tution, while an American citizen has to pay out of state tuition.  Thoughts, comments, reactions?  Does anyone think that this is a good idea?  Please explain. 
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: aerynn on May 04, 2007, 06:56:21 PM
Under Plyler v. Doe, the court held that education, although not a fundamental right, was important to the long-term success of an individual as becoming a productive member of society.  In that case, the state imposed a fee on illegal immigrants attending public school, that it didn't on citizens or documented immigrants.

Other states have held that there is a fundamental right to an education in their STATE constitution.  There are several state cases to that effect, e.g. Serrano v. Priest, Abboot v. Burke, Tennessee Small School Systems v. McWherter.  If it is a fundamental right, it cannot be denied without passing strict scrutiny. 
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: naturallybeyoutiful on May 04, 2007, 06:58:00 PM
I don't yet understsand all the legal implications surrounding this issue, but hopefully one day I will.  In the meantime, I simply disagree.  I'm all for the rights of legal immigrants to go after their share of the American dream, but I do not think that there should be unfair accommodations made for illegal immigrants.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: Niiice on May 04, 2007, 07:14:18 PM
I can tell you, right or wrong, that one of the arguments in favor of this involves situations where children are moved to the United States at a young age. Under at least some of the laws the undocumented citizen must have attended high school and lived for X number of years in the States. Hypothetically, this person could graduate high school only to realize that they are not the documented citizen they thought they were. Essentially, you are punishing the child for the parent's mistakes, something which is highly uncommon (if not non-existent) in our legal system. Also, at least in the state I'm familiar with, it is a highly uncommon occurence. Anyway, just putting it out there.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: aerynn on May 04, 2007, 07:27:55 PM
I can tell you, right or wrong, that one of the arguments in favor of this involves situations where children are moved to the United States at a young age. Under at least some of the laws the undocumented citizen must have attended high school and lived for X number of years in the States. Hypothetically, this person could graduate high school only to realize that they are not the documented citizen they thought they were. Essentially, you are punishing the child for the parent's mistakes, something which is highly uncommon (if not non-existent) in our legal system. Also, at least in the state I'm familiar with, it is a highly uncommon occurence. Anyway, just putting it out there.

I've heard of this.  There was a bill pending where people who either served in the military or who got a bachelor's degree could apply to become legal citizens even if they are undocumented as children.

The benefits are not just to the undocumented immigrants, but to their kids, who like it or not are here to stay.  By denying them the right to an education, we are creating a permanent underclass of people who are unable to meaningfully participate in society.  In the case of children, especially, they did not break the law intentionally or even knowingly.  This isn't about awarding illegal behavior, but preventing a huge burden on society.  An educated member of society has a better chance of being a productive member of society, one who can contribute meaningfully. 
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 04, 2007, 09:37:42 PM
Quote
By denying them the right to an education, we are creating a permanent underclass of people who are unable to meaningfully participate in society.

I'm not saying that we should deny them an education, I am just saying that they shouldn't be given in-state tuition.  In-state tuition in California ($20,000+) is much more expensive than out-of-state tution in Utah ($14,000).  So there are still many options that illegal immigrants have when going to school, I just don't think that an illegal immigrant should be given a government subsidized education. 

As a part of this, can someone be considered a citizen of a State and not of the U.S.? 

Quote
lso, I don't follow your logic.  States shouldn't give in-state tuition to people who've lived in those states because they don't distribute those benefits to people who've never contributed to those states?

They may have lived in those states, but not LEGALLY.  In fact, they aren't legal citizens of ANY state.  I go to school outside of California, and there were several hoops I had to jump through to get residency so that I could pay in-state tuition. 

As for children who were brought here when they were young, it is truly unfortunate that they have to suffer the consequences of their parents mistakes.  However, LEGALLY there are no exceptions.  I might be unfair to them, but it is also unfair that the wonderful people of Africa have to suffer so much more than any Mexican, Central, or South American.  Famine, cruel governments, war, and genocide to a degree that has never been seen south of the U.S. border has plagued that continent for years. 

How is it fair that they have to go through the arduous process to come to the U.S. (or Europe) LEGALLY, while 12 million others cut in front of them because they have easier access to the U.S.? 
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: Swibbles on May 04, 2007, 09:44:26 PM
Quote
By denying them the right to an education, we are creating a permanent underclass of people who are unable to meaningfully participate in society.

I'm not saying that we should deny them an education, I am just saying that they shouldn't be given in-state tuition.  In-state tuition in California ($20,000+) is much more expensive than out-of-state tution in Utah ($14,000).  So there are still many options that illegal immigrants have when going to school, I just don't think that an illegal immigrant should be given a government subsidized education. 

As a part of this, can someone be considered a citizen of a State and not of the U.S.? 

Quote
By denying them the right to an education, we are creating a permanent underclass of people who are unable to meaningfully participate in society.

They may have lived in those states, but not LEGALLY.  In fact, they aren't legal citizens of ANY state.  I go to school outside of California, and there were several hoops I had to jump through to get residency so that I could pay in-state tuition. 

As for children who were brought here when they were young, it is truly unfortunate that they have to suffer the consequences of their parents mistakes.  However, LEGALLY there are no exceptions.  I might be unfair to them, but it is also unfair that the wonderful people of Africa have to suffer so much more than any Mexican, Central, or South American.  Famine, cruel governments, war, and genocide to a degree that has never been seen south of the U.S. border has plagued that continent for years. 

How is it fair that they have to go through the arduous process to come to the U.S. (or Europe) LEGALLY, while 12 million others cut in front of them because they have easier access to the U.S.? 

whatever.  "fairness" is just some *&^% that someone made up. 
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 04, 2007, 10:00:39 PM
Quote
whatever.  "fairness" is just some sh*t that someone made up.

Is this just general disagreement with the idea of fairness or are you specifically referring the plight of Africans, illegal immigrants, or U.S. citizens paying out-of-state tuition?
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: Swibbles on May 04, 2007, 10:02:28 PM
Quote
whatever.  "fairness" is just some sh*t that someone made up.

Is this just general disagreement with the idea of fairness or are you specifically referring the plight of Africans, illegal immigrants, or U.S. citizens paying out-of-state tuition?

it's not a general disagreement with the idea so much as a suggestion that "fairness" isn't a very useful analytical tool.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: chlorinated on May 04, 2007, 10:16:16 PM
How is state university-level education subsidized for residents of a state -- is it funded through (or as a result of) taxpayer's money? 

If so, illegal immigrants may pay taxes in the form of a state sales tax and/or in the form of a state income tax (often automatically withheld from paychecks), which should entitle them to in-state tuition in their state of residency.

Just throwing this out there -- Perhaps someone else knows more about this?
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: attic4fp on May 04, 2007, 10:24:43 PM
I know this isn't really the topic of discussion here, but I would encourage certain posters to take a more nuanced view of Africa.

Africa is not one place where everything is horrible.  Even in war-torn places like the Sudan, the DRC, or northern Uganda, many people live comfortable lives above the poverty line.  It is offensive to essentialize African peoples and cultures as first and foremost "poor" or "long-suffering."

Furthermore, the suggestion that no one in Latin America has suffered like everyone or even many people in Africa is ridiculous.  Colombia, Nicaragua, Guatemala, just to name a few, have all seen terrible, long civil wars marked by horrible atrocities.

Before people start having a difficult discussion about immigration, fairness, international wealth-distribution, etc. they should make sure they have some sort of understanding of the History and Politics of the regions they are discussing.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 04, 2007, 10:51:56 PM
Quote
Africa is not one place where everything is horrible.  Even in war-torn places like the Sudan, the DRC, or northern Uganda, many people live comfortable lives above the poverty line.  It is offensive to essentialize African peoples and cultures as first and foremost "poor" or "long-suffering."

First off, I didn't mean to portray Africa in that light and I was wrong for not so specifying.  I know that not ALL (or even most) of Africa is like that.  Africa is the poorest continent where there are several on going wars and where there has been a recent history of genocide.  While there have been some horrible events in Central and South America, I don't think that the amount of suffering in certain parts of Africa are comparable to that in Columbia and other countries. 

My point was, that 12 million people slipped into the country illegally (or came legally, but didn't leave when they were supposed to) and that others (some who are suffering more) have to wait through the entire process. 
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: saz on May 04, 2007, 11:46:24 PM
I really found this post to be disturbing in its callousness and disregard towards illegal immigrants, particularly children. If a child is brought to the US by parents and through some circumstance end up with illegal status what do you propose be done about this cougar? round em' up and ship them home? There are children that have gone through this, so many in fact that Congress is attempting to pass a bill called the Dream Act which has bipartisan support. This law would recognize that many people were brought here as minors and should not be punished for their parents actions. It would grant conditional permanent resident status as a path towards citizenship. I'd also like to point out the not-so-subtle racism of your comments, for some reason you equate immigrants with people of color, namely those from Africa and South America. It is not surprising that recruitment for white supremacist organizations spiked during the public debate on immigration. You have no idea how difficult it is to live as an undocumented child in this country, the fear of deportation to a place that you barely know, if at all,  is terrifying. Poverty makes it very difficult to afford the legal services required to hire a lawyer to address immigration status,and without status you can't get a good job...it is a vicious cycle. and the longer you wait the worse off you are. If you end up being ordered deported as a child it becomes nearly impossible to reverse the decision. Yet again you have no power over this because of your status as a minor. Before you start a thread attacking the ability of immigrants to obtain an education take the time to think what it would be like to have done nothing wrong yet have no power to control your destiny to improve your life through education. Allowing illegal immigrants to receive in state tuition doesn't even mean they will attend because without financial aid the expense is a burden for most immigrant families. If they do go they will need private loans, again very difficult for immigrants to receive. in any case the point is to have a more complicated understanding of the lives and experiences of people, i hope its possible for you to do so.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: simonsays on May 05, 2007, 06:09:00 AM
I really found this post to be disturbing in its callousness and disregard towards illegal immigrants, particularly children. If a child is brought to the US by parents and through some circumstance end up with illegal status what do you propose be done about this cougar? round em' up and ship them home? There are children that have gone through this, so many in fact that Congress is attempting to pass a bill called the Dream Act which has bipartisan support. This law would recognize that many people were brought here as minors and should not be punished for their parents actions. It would grant conditional permanent resident status as a path towards citizenship. I'd also like to point out the not-so-subtle racism of your comments, for some reason you equate immigrants with people of color, namely those from Africa and South America. It is not surprising that recruitment for white supremacist organizations spiked during the public debate on immigration. You have no idea how difficult it is to live as an undocumented child in this country, the fear of deportation to a place that you barely know, if at all,  is terrifying. Poverty makes it very difficult to afford the legal services required to hire a lawyer to address immigration status,and without status you can't get a good job...it is a vicious cycle. and the longer you wait the worse off you are. If you end up being ordered deported as a child it becomes nearly impossible to reverse the decision. Yet again you have no power over this because of your status as a minor. Before you start a thread attacking the ability of immigrants to obtain an education take the time to think what it would be like to have done nothing wrong yet have no power to control your destiny to improve your life through education. Allowing illegal immigrants to receive in state tuition doesn't even mean they will attend because without financial aid the expense is a burden for most immigrant families. If they do go they will need private loans, again very difficult for immigrants to receive. in any case the point is to have a more complicated understanding of the lives and experiences of people, i hope its possible for you to do so.


a primary reason people come to this country illegally is to give their children a better life. 

seeing that the children are the end goal and motivation, while the parents illegal actions are the mechanism to reach this goal, it seems reasonable to take steps and reduce the primary motivation behind the illegal acts.

Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: queencruella on May 05, 2007, 06:29:35 AM
How is state university-level education subsidized for residents of a state -- is it funded through (or as a result of) taxpayer's money? 

If so, illegal immigrants may pay taxes in the form of a state sales tax and/or in the form of a state income tax (often automatically withheld from paychecks), which should entitle them to in-state tuition in their state of residency.

Just throwing this out there -- Perhaps someone else knows more about this?

Depends on the state. Florida has no state income tax, so schools are paid for by sales tax and lottery proceeds. A good deal of the taxation comes from tourist-related enterprises, so state residents actually pay very little. Since illegal immigrants are paying the same sales tax as everyone else, they should be entitled to attend Florida schools.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: aerynn on May 05, 2007, 08:16:52 AM
Undocumented immigrants also often hold jobs, but with fake papers, so they pay taxes but can't receive any of the benefits.  So, there is an argument that illegal immigrants do pay in.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: simonsays on May 05, 2007, 12:19:06 PM
The right of the government to tax is not the same as the right to receive benefits.

I pay to subsidize farmers in Idaho and certainly don't believe the relationship is reciproacal.  That fact that they are not paying federal taxes implies illegals take far more than they receive.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: Swibbles on May 05, 2007, 01:16:01 PM
The right of the government to tax is not the same as the right to receive benefits.

I pay to subsidize farmers in Idaho and certainly don't believe the relationship is reciproacal.  That fact that they are not paying federal taxes implies illegals take far more than they receive.

again, don't really like the term "illegals".
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: chlorinated on May 05, 2007, 02:17:06 PM
The right of the government to tax is not the same as the right to receive benefits.

I pay to subsidize farmers in Idaho and certainly don't believe the relationship is reciproacal.  That fact that they are not paying federal taxes implies illegals take far more than they receive.

Just for the record - I think many illegal immigrants do pay federal taxes.  Some work at jobs that automatically withhold federal taxes.  I file a tax return each year and get a portion of what has been withheld back.  In the past, most illegal immigrants have not filed tax returns, and, therefore, do not get a refund.  If you look at that, some illegal immigrants then are paying more than they are required in federal taxes. 

That said, an increasing number of illegal immigrants are filing tax returns -- the idea that if they do everything "right", it may help them if immgiration laws change to allow them to become citizens eventually.

I do not have sources, unfortunately, though much of this is from what I've heard on NPR and from other media sources over the last few months (especially following media focus on TX's Hutto Detention Center earlier this year).  I suffer from the same problem as many others in this thread -- not knowing enough about the topic.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 05, 2007, 02:17:56 PM
Quote
I really found this post to be disturbing in its callousness and disregard towards illegal immigrants, particularly children.

I don't see how enforcing the law is callous.  It might be true that these children are suffering the consequences for their parent’s actions, but whose fault is that?  Should America assume the burden for other's choices?  That hardly seems right.  

Quote
Poverty makes it very difficult to afford the legal services required to hire a lawyer to address immigration status, and without status you can't get a good job...it is a vicious cycle.

Of course poverty is a vicious cycle, but there are millions of people all over the world who live in poverty.  Poverty is not an excuse to break the law-especially when the law is in no way discriminatory or repressive.  Opening up our borders won't bring an end to poverty.  These countries are poor because of the corrupt and unaccountable leaders.  I feel that  all the energy put into trying to change the laws of the U.S. would be better put to use calling for reform and accountability in those countries that people are fleeing from.  

Quote
 I'd also like to point out the not-so-subtle racism of your comments, for some reason you equate immigrants with people of color, namely those from Africa and South America.  

Calling someone a racist is the last resort of someone whose argument sucks.  The overwhelming majority of illegal immigrants in the U.S. are from Mexico, Central America, and South America.  Regardless of this fact, I feel the same about illegal immigrants no matter where they are from or what color of skin they have.  

I brought Africa up because there are areas of that continent experiencing extreme poverty and (as I have said twice already) those people must wait to enter the U.S. legally, while others (be they Canadians, Mexicans, people of the Caribbean, etc.) cut in front of those people.  I think that is wrong.  The only thing more reprehensible is that the countries these people flee from feed the fat of the corrupt leaders at the people's expense.  

Quote
again, don't really like the term "illegals".

I don't really want to get into what the most PC term is.  The government calls them "aliens" or "illegal aliens", but because that doesn't "sound nice" they are called "illegal immigrants".  I believe the latest spin is to call them "undocumented migrant workers".  They are illegal, so I don't find the term illegals (which is short for either illegal aliens or illegal immigrants) offensive.  I don't see either term as racist or derogatory, rather just a classification of a group of people who are unlawfully in the U.S.  If there were other terms that were racist or derogatory, I would be offended and consider them totally in appropriate.  

Finally, I would like to point out that my family is multi-racial.  I have family that came to the U.S. legally from Central America.  I do not oppose immigration and am I against prohibiting certain races or nationalities to enter the U.S.-as long as they do so in accordance with the law.  I spent several years in some of the worst parts of this country doing service and becoming friends with immigrants (legal and illegal) and I have great respect for these people.  I even became fluent in Spanish because i spent so much time with people from Latin America (again, some legal and some illegal).  I saw how hard they work, and the pain that it caused them to be away from their families.  I saw how some were forced to live difficult lives because they were here illegally.  Out of all of this I came to realize that nearly all came to the U.S. not because they wanted to leave home, but because they were forced to.  THEIR GOVERNMENTS are the problem, not our laws.  Instead of us accommodating them, we need to help them get their country back so that they can live comfortable, fulfilling lives.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: saz on May 06, 2007, 02:37:51 PM
I really found this post to be disturbing in its callousness and disregard towards illegal immigrants, particularly children. If a child is brought to the US by parents and through some circumstance end up with illegal status what do you propose be done about this cougar? round em' up and ship them home? There are children that have gone through this, so many in fact that Congress is attempting to pass a bill called the Dream Act which has bipartisan support. This law would recognize that many people were brought here as minors and should not be punished for their parents actions. It would grant conditional permanent resident status as a path towards citizenship. I'd also like to point out the not-so-subtle racism of your comments, for some reason you equate immigrants with people of color, namely those from Africa and South America. It is not surprising that recruitment for white supremacist organizations spiked during the public debate on immigration. You have no idea how difficult it is to live as an undocumented child in this country, the fear of deportation to a place that you barely know, if at all,  is terrifying. Poverty makes it very difficult to afford the legal services required to hire a lawyer to address immigration status,and without status you can't get a good job...it is a vicious cycle. and the longer you wait the worse off you are. If you end up being ordered deported as a child it becomes nearly impossible to reverse the decision. Yet again you have no power over this because of your status as a minor. Before you start a thread attacking the ability of immigrants to obtain an education take the time to think what it would be like to have done nothing wrong yet have no power to control your destiny to improve your life through education. Allowing illegal immigrants to receive in state tuition doesn't even mean they will attend because without financial aid the expense is a burden for most immigrant families. If they do go they will need private loans, again very difficult for immigrants to receive. in any case the point is to have a more complicated understanding of the lives and experiences of people, i hope its possible for you to do so.


a primary reason people come to this country illegally is to give their children a better life. 

seeing that the children are the end goal and motivation, while the parents illegal actions are the mechanism to reach this goal, it seems reasonable to take steps and reduce the primary motivation behind the illegal acts.



In case you are confused as to what precisely could be construed as callous in your position, perhaps you should consider that here you argue for punishing children based on the actions of their parents. Perhaps you are confused as to the definition of callous? If not please accept the fact that punitive measures taken against children as a way to prevent illegal immigration could be defined as callous. Also please tell me what you propose be done, perhaps Schoolchild Security task forces (aka SS) could raid kindergartens across the country rounding up undocumented children. Surely this would send a message to those who seek to leech off the system by providing a better life for their kids.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: aerynn on May 06, 2007, 06:24:41 PM
Slow down on that one.  In some states, education *is* recognized as a right in the state constitution.  Remember, rights are not granted by the states, but recognized and protected.  Thus, if the state recognizes a right (not privilege) of education, they don't have a ground to deny it to illegal aliens.  The right to an education is one they get simply for being human beings and the state will protect that right by allowing them into the schools just as it allows anyone else.

There are also fundamental rights under the federal, U.S. Constitution, which includes a right to travel.  This is a right granted to all citizens of the U.S.  An undocumented alien doesn't have that right under the constitution, because it is expressly reserved for citizens.  However, to deny them that right the state would have to provide due process, which is a fundamental right due to all human beings in the jurisdiction.  So, the state may have made a judgment call and decided that there are public policy benefits to providing an affordable education to everyone who resides in the state vs. spending the money on a series of hearings to satisfy due process to deny education to undocumented aliens.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: naturallybeyoutiful on May 07, 2007, 03:50:12 PM

In some states, education *is* recognized as a right in the state constitution.  Remember, rights are not granted by the states, but recognized and protected. 

I am too busy to read the entire thread at the moment, but I am intrigued by the bolded part of your comment.  I happen to agree that rights are recognized and protected by governments, not created by them. I thought this was a significant point and worth highlighting.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 11, 2007, 01:44:33 PM
AGAIN, can you be the citizen of a state without being a citizen of the United States? 
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: leostrauss on May 11, 2007, 02:05:55 PM
I really found this post to be disturbing in its callousness and disregard towards illegal immigrants, particularly children. If a child is brought to the US by parents and through some circumstance end up with illegal status what do you propose be done about this cougar? round em' up and ship them home? There are children that have gone through this, so many in fact that Congress is attempting to pass a bill called the Dream Act which has bipartisan support. This law would recognize that many people were brought here as minors and should not be punished for their parents actions. It would grant conditional permanent resident status as a path towards citizenship. I'd also like to point out the not-so-subtle racism of your comments, for some reason you equate immigrants with people of color, namely those from Africa and South America. It is not surprising that recruitment for white supremacist organizations spiked during the public debate on immigration. You have no idea how difficult it is to live as an undocumented child in this country, the fear of deportation to a place that you barely know, if at all,  is terrifying. Poverty makes it very difficult to afford the legal services required to hire a lawyer to address immigration status,and without status you can't get a good job...it is a vicious cycle. and the longer you wait the worse off you are. If you end up being ordered deported as a child it becomes nearly impossible to reverse the decision. Yet again you have no power over this because of your status as a minor. Before you start a thread attacking the ability of immigrants to obtain an education take the time to think what it would be like to have done nothing wrong yet have no power to control your destiny to improve your life through education. Allowing illegal immigrants to receive in state tuition doesn't even mean they will attend because without financial aid the expense is a burden for most immigrant families. If they do go they will need private loans, again very difficult for immigrants to receive. in any case the point is to have a more complicated understanding of the lives and experiences of people, i hope its possible for you to do so.


a primary reason people come to this country illegally is to give their children a better life. 

seeing that the children are the end goal and motivation, while the parents illegal actions are the mechanism to reach this goal, it seems reasonable to take steps and reduce the primary motivation behind the illegal acts.



In case you are confused as to what precisely could be construed as callous in your position, perhaps you should consider that here you argue for punishing children based on the actions of their parents. Perhaps you are confused as to the definition of callous? If not please accept the fact that punitive measures taken against children as a way to prevent illegal immigration could be defined as callous. Also please tell me what you propose be done, perhaps Schoolchild Security task forces (aka SS) could raid kindergartens across the country rounding up undocumented children. Surely this would send a message to those who seek to leech off the system by providing a better life for their kids.

I've been thinking for about thirty seconds (a long time for me!) about "punishing" children for parents mistakes. A short reply:

1) there is no punishment - all coug is arguing for is withholding a benefit - namely in state tuition, because it is reserved for residents of the state. Are undocumented migrant workers residents of the state they seek said tuition reduction from? NO, therefore, no benefit should be dispersed. This is no punishment.

2) Do we punish children in any analogous way for the crimes of parents. SURE: when your mom kills your dad, your mom goes to jail, your dad is dead, and the state does little to help you. Your family is now infected with crime and disaster. If your dad robs a bank, then he goes to jail. You now don't have a dad . . . is the state PUNISHING you? NO!!! You just reap the horrors of your parents own mistakes. Don't blame the government; blame CRIMINAL parents.

Your argument - on this score - is laudable for its passion and compassion. Perhaps Coug sounds like he lacks empathy. However, for the above reasons, I am not persuaded, though I am sympathetic.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: aerynn on May 11, 2007, 02:30:51 PM
As far as I know, there is no way to be a citizen of a state and not a citizen of the U.S.  The question of guaranteed rights doesn't turn on that, however.  If a state recognizes that education is a fundamental right, instead of a state-granted privilege as the national Constitution does, then that state should grant that right, having recognized it as due to everyone.  States can grant additional rights and privileges that the federal government doesn't recognize.

The way I understand it, to deprive someone of a right is a punishment.  Thus, although looking at it from a federal perspective the lack of in-state tuition or an education are privileges that can be not granted without it being punitive, if the state decides that education is a right, then that right cannot be revoked without it being punitive.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: Shady Lane on May 11, 2007, 02:36:57 PM
1) there is no punishment - all coug is arguing for is withholding a benefit - namely in state tuition, because it is reserved for residents of the state. Are undocumented migrant workers residents of the state they seek said tuition reduction from? NO, therefore, no benefit should be dispersed. This is no punishment.

I think under AB 540, the California bill, undocumented immigrants are not granted in-state tuition on the basis of residency anymore but graduation from a California high-school, so it's no longer a "resident" benefit.  For instance, California HS grads who attend undergrad outside California and establish residency in a another state are still eligible for in-state tuition in a UC school if they come back for grad school, regardless of citizenship. 

As a side note, I had a brief conversation with someone about her friend who is attending law school as an illegal immigrant.  Won't that come up on C&F at some point?  I'm curious if anyone knows.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: leostrauss on May 11, 2007, 02:40:36 PM
As far as I know, there is no way to be a citizen of a state and not a citizen of the U.S.  The question of guaranteed rights doesn't turn on that, however.  If a state recognizes that education is a fundamental right, instead of a state-granted privilege as the national Constitution does, then that state should grant that right, having recognized it as due to everyone.  States can grant additional rights and privileges that the federal government doesn't recognize.

The way I understand it, to deprive someone of a right is a punishment.  Thus, although looking at it from a federal perspective the lack of in-state tuition or an education are privileges that can be not granted without it being punitive, if the state decides that education is a right, then that right cannot be revoked without it being punitive.

If it's punitive, then what is it punishing?

Also, which state constitutions recognize education as a fundamental right? Don't many of them recognize through high school, but then not in college/beyond? I'm sure minnesota is that way, por example. Is there ANY state that doesn't? Does/Do this/these state/s have any undocumented migrant workers? If so, then do you admit that the argument for improper punishment of children for parents' wrongs shouldn't hold in said states?

Also, do you agree that when parents break the law, children often suffer either from the scarlet letter of being related to a criminal, possibly deprived of a parent, or even if the parent isn't caught, the kids could suffer from living with a drug addicted, murdering, violent, stealing parent . . . does the state have an obligation to rectify that to make every kids' upbringing equal? If so, is it punishment for me that another kid's upbringing was nicer than mine? Does the government owe me something for that?

Finally, doesn't the government become an accomplice to the crime of illegal immigration (is it a crime or something else? I really don't know for sure) by giving incentives for ppl to commit the crime. An an example: Wouldn't it be wrong for the govt to give out 100 dollar bills to people who do heroine or to people whose parents do heroine? I think it would be wrong. Thus, I think it is wrong of the government to incentivize this illegal activity. It's unfortunate that ppl's parents commit crimes and thus involve their kids in the suffering that results, but I'm not sure that justifies otherwise unjustifiable handouts.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 11, 2007, 02:52:49 PM
Quote
If a state recognizes that education is a fundamental right, instead of a state-granted privilege as the national Constitution does, then that state should grant that right, having recognized it as due to everyone.  States can grant additional rights and privileges that the federal government doesn't recognize.

If a state views an education as a fundamental right, does that include higher education or does that stop after the child has left high school?  I'm not saying that we throw illegal immigrant children out of primary education (although they are using resources that belong to U.S. citizens and their children). 

Further, I am not calling for the denial of a college education to illegal immigrants (whether or not a state views education as a fundamental right).  The state can let them attend college (public or private), but they should not be given the in-state tuition rate at public universities. 
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: leostrauss on May 11, 2007, 02:56:36 PM
Quote
If a state recognizes that education is a fundamental right, instead of a state-granted privilege as the national Constitution does, then that state should grant that right, having recognized it as due to everyone.  States can grant additional rights and privileges that the federal government doesn't recognize.

If a state views an education as a fundamental right, does that include higher education or does that stop after the child has left high school?  I'm not saying that we throw illegal immigrant children out of primary education (although they are using resources that belong to U.S. citizens and their children). 

Further, I am not calling for the denial of a college education to illegal immigrants (whether or not a state views education as a fundamental right).  The state can let them attend college (public or private), but they should not be given the in-state tuition rate at public universities. 

Coug, would you be ok with it if your state said, "It's wrong for us to grant undocumented migrant workers in-state-tuition on the basis of residency. So, we have decided to pass a law giving them a free ride, because we see it as a significant state interest to get this population that "lives in the shadows" educated; and to give them equal access to the opportunities afforded other human beings in this state, said education will be necessary?"
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 11, 2007, 03:12:31 PM
Of course not. 
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: ?????? on May 11, 2007, 05:16:25 PM
Two responses, as I feel this is a very interesting topic. 

1) The real question should be the basis for granting "in-state" tuition for residents.  A previous poster argued that Florida funds education through sales tax, and illegal immigrants and citizens both pay sales tax, so illegal immigrants should therefore have the same right to in-state status as citizens of the state.  In the state where I grew up educational costs are funded by property taxes. Using the previous logic one would then argue that illegal immigrants in that state would only have rights to in-state education if they paid property taxes.  Would citizens who don't pay property taxex (i.e. renters?) then have no right to in-state status? This seems fallacious.

I would argue that the determination of residency should be independent of parental taxation status in all circumstances and be based on the student's last tax filing or educational status.  A child of an illegal immigrant who completed high school in a given state should be considered a resident of that state, just as a legal citizen high school graduate would be.  Yes, this would create a potential situation where one could be a resident of the state and not the United States.   However, the state has provided that child a k-12 education just as it has a legal citizen; changing the child's residency for higher education would be inconsistent with providing a K-12 education in the first place (insert new argument here).   

2. In reponse:

"Of course poverty is a vicious cycle, but there are millions of people all over the world who live in poverty.  Poverty is not an excuse to break the law-especially when the law is in no way discriminatory or repressive.  Opening up our borders won't bring an end to poverty.  These countries are poor because of the corrupt and unaccountable leaders.  I feel that  all the energy put into trying to change the laws of the U.S. would be better put to use calling for reform and accountability in those countries that people are fleeing from".  

The ENTIRE history of immigration and immigration law has been overwhelmingly proven to be extremely discriminatory and repressive.  This country has had a long history of established ethnic groups discriminating against new immigrants, both socially and legally. Yes, improvements have been made since the Immigration Act of 1917, but arguing that the law is "in no way discriminatory or repressive" is incredibly ignorant. 

Furthermore, corrupt and unaccountable leaders are not the only reasons for poverty.  Many of these sorts of leaders in Latin America were put in to power with the help of the United States.  With that in mind, does the burden of responsibility lie with the United States to provide for those country's citizens that are poor due to inept leadership?  We put the idiotic leaders in power, many times for our own political or monetary gain. 

You're correct, opening the gates won't solve poverty around the globe, but ignorance about basic facts surrounding this issue won't solve anything either.   
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: aerynn on May 11, 2007, 06:01:08 PM
I haven't done a state-by-state comparative analysis on the approach of education as a right vs. the federal constitution's approach that education is a privilege.  I only know what I read in my Con Law book and the Chemerinsky hornbook, which was focused on the federal approach.  Probably it would take hours of research to put together a good response comparing various state approaches and then contrasting with the federal approach.

I do agree that in states that follow the federal approach there is no state or federal constitutional justification for granting illegal immigrants in-state tuition, but that doesn't mean it is a good public policy.

To learn more about the law, check out FindLaw (no passwords needed): http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_search.pl?title=8&sec=1325 (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_search.pl?title=8&sec=1325)

Looks to me like it is both a criminal and civil offense, but not a big one and the penalty is a fine/jail time not automatic deportation.  So, given that it is a crime, but a small crime, does that change your position on illegal immigration?  What would you say if shoplifting parents would deprive their children of in-state college tuition FOREVER if they shoplifted, because most parents who shoplift do so to support their children, thus penalizing the children's status in the state would discourage parental shoplifting?  It seems like a really unjust approach.

Policy for supporting in-state tuition and channel for children of undocumented immigrants to become legit citizens would help create a class of hard working immigrants who are not permanently under educated with only low paying jobs in the future. 
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 11, 2007, 06:09:58 PM
Quote
  Policy for supporting in-state tuition and channel for children of undocumented immigrants to become legit citizens would help create a class of hard working immigrants who are not permanently under educated with only low paying jobs in the future.   

No, that is what the LEGAL immigration route is for.  Legal immigrants are given special consideration by the states that they live in, even if they are only residents of the U.S. 

Quote
Using the previous logic one would then argue that illegal immigrants in that state would only have rights to in-state education if they paid property taxes.  Would citizens who don't pay property taxex (i.e. renters?) then have no right to in-state status? This seems fallacious.

We live under a federalist system of government.  We are subject to two governments-the federal and the state.  A state can educate its citizens and provide for them however a state sees fit.  Since illegal immigrants are not citizens, then they have no such right. 

Quote
A child of an illegal immigrant who completed high school in a given state should be considered a resident of that state, just as a legal citizen high school graduate would be.   

The state can educate illegal immigrant children in K-12 (which I believe they should, although the resources of legitimate citizens are being stolen), just as the state is obligated to do so for its own citizens.  After high school a state has no such obligation. 

And to address the last point that immigration laws are descriminatory-that is just ridiculous.  We aren't living in the early 1900's any more.  Government immigration laws are fair.  They are the laws of our sovereign nation and they are being ignored and violated. 

There is no legal or moral justification for granting in-state tuition to illegal immigrants. 
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: aerynn on May 11, 2007, 06:25:35 PM
Baseless assertions are just ADORABLE!  Great job on that!

Also, states can provide for rights and privileges of anyone within their jurisdiction, citizen or not, so long as they meet the Constitutional floor set by the federal constitution and they are preempted by federal statute.  So, if states want to provide an education for undocumented children in their state, they can.  The citizenship blather is only relevant in regard to the law as it applies to citizens. 
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 11, 2007, 06:45:44 PM
Quote
   The citizenship blather is only relevant in regard to the law as it applies to citizens. 
 

Oh, so it comes back down to the law?  Do you mean the same law that was broken when these same illegal immigrants came into our country?  When they by passed all the rules and regulations?  I guess to them caring about citizenship and rules is blather. 

Quote
  Baseless assertions are just ADORABLE!  Great job on that!

Only as baseless as your argument. 
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: philibusters on May 12, 2007, 06:17:56 PM
I am posting this under this thread b/c I didn't quite know where else to put it.  Currently there are over 20 states that offer in-state tuition to illegal immigrants.  To me this seems totally unfair that someone who is not even a citizen of this country gets in-state tution, while an American citizen has to pay out of state tuition.  Thoughts, comments, reactions?  Does anyone think that this is a good idea?  Please explain. 

Just skimmed the thread so literally everything I say might be repeat.

As for the argument its seems unfair that a person not a citizen of the country gets in-state tuition, I disagree.  National citizenship entails national rights, are not conservatives supposed to be the ones saying states are seperate from the national government.  It makes no sense for states to exclude somebody from receiving in state tuition on the basis of the national government calls them citizens. 

The policy goals of in state tuition are to form an educated work force that will stay in the state, that applies to citizens, legal immigrants, and illegal immigrants if they lived in the state their entire life and have strong roots in the state, also its funded by state taxes which immigrants pay.  I don't understand the policy reason why they should be denied in state tuition, if they have strong connections to the state.  If somebody from California applied to a school in Florida and got in state tuition that would piss me off because they don't have roots to the state, probably aren't likely to stay there so the state gets nothing out of their investment and they haven't been paying taxes, but I don't think thats how the current system works.

Again, who the f*ck cares if an American citizen pays out of state tuition, you are a conservative, why are you trying to bind the states by what the national government.  Plus how does that serve the policy goals of in state tuition?

To reemphasize, I think if its a good idea if it will serve the policy goals of having the the two tiered system in the first, if its a good shot the state will benefit from the person's education then give them a discount, the state benefits by having them stay in the state, while those who are unlikely to stay in the state and give the state later benefits should not get the discount.   
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: ->Soon on May 21, 2007, 07:53:57 AM
let em have it

if a kids parents move them to this country, we have nothing to gain by not educating them...
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: beeker on May 21, 2007, 08:05:15 AM
I don't yet understsand all the legal implications surrounding this issue, but hopefully one day I will.  In the meantime, I simply disagree.  I'm all for the rights of legal immigrants to go after their share of the American dream, but I do not think that there should be unfair accommodations made for illegal immigrants.

agreed
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: Katie08 on May 21, 2007, 03:17:44 PM
I don't yet understsand all the legal implications surrounding this issue, but hopefully one day I will.  In the meantime, I simply disagree.  I'm all for the rights of legal immigrants to go after their share of the American dream, but I do not think that there should be unfair accommodations made for illegal immigrants.

agreed

At least in most of the states, these are children who were brought to this country by their parents before the age of maturity (usually 15), have attended and graduated from high school, and made good grades (good enough to get accepted).  They are looking to get in-state tuition, but are still ineligible for any financial aid, subsidized loans, etc. It wasn't their choice to come here, and many of them do not have the language skills or family connections to return to their "native" country.  By educating these students, we are able to maintain an educated workforce, provide incentives for everyone to finish high school, and maximizing the tax base on a state level. We aren't making any sort of accomodation for these students that isn't already being made for other students.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: ->Soon on May 21, 2007, 05:45:45 PM
I don't yet understsand all the legal implications surrounding this issue, but hopefully one day I will.  In the meantime, I simply disagree.  I'm all for the rights of legal immigrants to go after their share of the American dream, but I do not think that there should be unfair accommodations made for illegal immigrants.

agreed

At least in most of the states, these are children who were brought to this country by their parents before the age of maturity (usually 15), have attended and graduated from high school, and made good grades (good enough to get accepted).  They are looking to get in-state tuition, but are still ineligible for any financial aid, subsidized loans, etc. It wasn't their choice to come here, and many of them do not have the language skills or family connections to return to their "native" country.  By educating these students, we are able to maintain an educated workforce, provide incentives for everyone to finish high school, and maximizing the tax base on a state level. We aren't making any sort of accomodation for these students that isn't already being made for other students.

exzactly!
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 21, 2007, 07:04:54 PM
Whether or not they chose to come here, they are here-illegally. 

Some argue that they shouldn't be able to attend any sort of higher education.  I wouldn't go that far.  If they have the grades and can pay the tuition, then go for it.  I just don't think that they should get the benefit of in-state tuition. 

I don't think we can know what their language skills are.  I met many families (legal and illegal immigrants), that lived in bilingual households.  Spanish was spoken at home and the kids spoke english everywhere else.  Anyways, I don't know what the statistics would be and I don't know if that is even available. 
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 22, 2007, 10:42:26 AM
Besides, out-of-state tuition isn't totally unfair.  It also depends where you go to school.  Out-of-state tuition in Utah is cheaper than in-state tution in California.  They can still get an education, but they shouldn't receive the benefits of legal residents. 

I am not openly calling for the deportion of illegal immigrant children who are now adults.  Even though it wasn't their choice, they are here illegally and don't get same benefits of legal citizens.  While this might not be "fair", unfortunately, the law doesn't take "fair" into consideration.  Besides, why should Americans be forced to accomodate foreign nationals?  Living here illegally, getting free primary education, and being able to work (all of which wouldn't be happening if our borders were properly maintained) is accomodation enough. 
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: Katie08 on May 22, 2007, 12:05:03 PM
Besides, out-of-state tuition isn't totally unfair.  It also depends where you go to school.  Out-of-state tuition in Utah is cheaper than in-state tution in California.  They can still get an education, but they shouldn't receive the benefits of legal residents. 

I am not openly calling for the deportion of illegal immigrant children who are now adults.  Even though it wasn't their choice, they are here illegally and don't get same benefits of legal citizens.  While this might not be "fair", unfortunately, the law doesn't take "fair" into consideration.  Besides, why should Americans be forced to accomodate foreign nationals?  Living here illegally, getting free primary education, and being able to work (all of which wouldn't be happening if our borders were properly maintained) is accomodation enough. 

How are they able to work? I mean, yes, they presumably have the same jobs available to them that other undocumented workers have access to, but isn't it more beneficial for everyone involved if they are able to pursue an education and gain a legal status here so they can pay taxes and work skilled jobs which benefit the state as a whole?
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 22, 2007, 01:34:14 PM
No, because that would encourage more illegal immigration, which is what Dems and Repubs are trying to stop. 
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: aerynn on May 22, 2007, 07:55:28 PM
No, because that would encourage more illegal immigration, which is what Dems and Repubs are trying to stop. 

You still haven't addressed my point that illegal immigrant doesn't equal automatic deportation.  If it is just a fine and continued undocumented status, then wouldn't it be beneficial to society to make the people staying here as productive as possible? 

Why give ANYONE in-state tuition?  Why do we have schools at all?  Don't these reasons and incentives apply to undocumented immigrants who intend to stay in the state forever anyway?  Education is not a reward for being a citizen; it is a benefit conferred so that the state can get something back: an educated workforce that earns more and pays more taxes.  Hopefully, those educated people will found successful businesses and successfully manage existing businesses.  Or they will provide skilled services that the state needs to attract more taxpayers to live in the state.

I am sorry I was short with you earlier, but I was running on zero sleep and was in the middle of law review write on, posting on a break.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: DDBY on May 24, 2007, 07:49:05 PM
I am posting this under this thread b/c I didn't quite know where else to put it.  Currently there are over 20 states that offer in-state tuition to illegal immigrants.  To me this seems totally unfair that someone who is not even a citizen of this country gets in-state tution, while an American citizen has to pay out of state tuition.  Thoughts, comments, reactions?  Does anyone think that this is a good idea?  Please explain. 
No one ever seem to deal with this obvoius issue.  Where does an illegal alien get a ss# to use social services and legal immigrant benefits?

Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: leostrauss on May 24, 2007, 07:53:22 PM
Uh, they do it illegally usually on a black-market . . . I think
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: DDBY on May 24, 2007, 08:00:28 PM
Uh, they do it illegally usually on a black-market . . . I think
Right.  Certain people (libs) seem to deliberately overlook this.  They like illegal aliens because they can pay them less and deny them workers rights.  They deliberately want to create a slave class in our society.



Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: leostrauss on May 24, 2007, 08:05:53 PM
Uh, they do it illegally usually on a black-market . . . I think
Right.  Certain people (libs) seem to deliberately overlook this.  They like illegal aliens because they can pay them less and deny them workers rights.  They deliberately want to create a slave class in our society.





Though I am strongly against illegal immigration, I doubt "libs" want to create a slave class. This is just step one of five toward equality for all in their minds I think. See below:

1. Amnesty
2.
3.Underpants
4.demand equal pay/rights for the downtrodden class you just demanded amnesty for in step one
5. Profit.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: DDBY on May 24, 2007, 08:11:30 PM
Uh, they do it illegally usually on a black-market . . . I think
Right.  Certain people (libs) seem to deliberately overlook this.  They like illegal aliens because they can pay them less and deny them workers rights.  They deliberately want to create a slave class in our society.





Though I am strongly against illegal immigration, I doubt "libs" want to create a slave class. This is just step one of five toward equality for all in their minds I think. See below:

1. Amnesty
2.
3.Underpants
4.demand equal pay/rights for the downtrodden class you just demanded amnesty for in step one
5. Profit.
What's funny is that you shouldn't have to say your against illegal immigration.  Its illegal.  That's like saying I'm strongly against bank robbing. 

We probably see eye to eye leo so this may just be a rant.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: Captain on May 24, 2007, 08:18:53 PM
Under Plyler v. Doe, the court held that education, although not a fundamental right, was important to the long-term success of an individual as becoming a productive member of society.  In that case, the state imposed a fee on illegal immigrants attending public school, that it didn't on citizens or documented immigrants.

Other states have held that there is a fundamental right to an education in their STATE constitution.  There are several state cases to that effect, e.g. Serrano v. Priest, Abboot v. Burke, Tennessee Small School Systems v. McWherter.  If it is a fundamental right, it cannot be denied without passing strict scrutiny. 

So, fine... What if a state gives the illegal in-state tuition, but when they show up at the bursar's office to pay for it, they get deported back to wherever they came from... is that allowed?
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: DDBY on May 24, 2007, 08:22:37 PM
Under Plyler v. Doe, the court held that education, although not a fundamental right, was important to the long-term success of an individual as becoming a productive member of society.  In that case, the state imposed a fee on illegal immigrants attending public school, that it didn't on citizens or documented immigrants.

Other states have held that there is a fundamental right to an education in their STATE constitution.  There are several state cases to that effect, e.g. Serrano v. Priest, Abboot v. Burke, Tennessee Small School Systems v. McWherter.  If it is a fundamental right, it cannot be denied without passing strict scrutiny. 

So, fine... What if a state gives the illegal in-state tuition, but when they show up at the bursar's office to pay for it, they get deported back to wherever they came from... is that allowed?
lashings first for ID theft, then deportation
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: leostrauss on May 24, 2007, 08:24:34 PM
Uh, they do it illegally usually on a black-market . . . I think
Right.  Certain people (libs) seem to deliberately overlook this.  They like illegal aliens because they can pay them less and deny them workers rights.  They deliberately want to create a slave class in our society.





Though I am strongly against illegal immigration, I doubt "libs" want to create a slave class. This is just step one of five toward equality for all in their minds I think. See below:

1. Amnesty
2.
3.Underpants
4.demand equal pay/rights for the downtrodden class you just demanded amnesty for in step one
5. Profit.
What's funny is that you shouldn't have to say your against illegal immigration.  Its illegal.  That's like saying I'm strongly against bank robbing. 

We probably see eye to eye leo so this may just be a rant.

I'm against the illegal immigrating, but I think that's blown way outa proportion. I think what's easily far worse in every way is:

1. the forged documents (federal crime . . . stealing SS #'s driver's license etc.)
2. the Americans who hire illegals intentionally.

In this debate, crossing a border should come secondary to the identity theft if you really want to get anywhere. The border jumping is a minor/petty offense. Stealing someone's identity/forging legal documents is a BIG deal. Driving without insurance comes to mind too. Oh yeah, and I thought we were suddenly really serious about our security in this country. Ft. Dix . . . ???
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: DDBY on May 24, 2007, 08:26:15 PM
I've often wondered about social contract and our obligation for civil justice toward those who chose to breach that contract.

Shoud an alien who breaks the law upon entry, and is obviously contemptuous of the law, be protected by the law they chose not to recognize.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: aerynn on May 25, 2007, 07:13:52 AM
The penalty for illegal immigration is NOT DEPORTATION.  It is a fine, maybe some very minor jail time.  It is the other stuff that leo mentioned that can lead to deportation, but even then, there are fines and jail time first.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: ->Soon on May 25, 2007, 07:13:54 AM
Uh, they do it illegally usually on a black-market . . . I think
Right.  Certain people (libs) seem to deliberately overlook this.  They like illegal aliens because they can pay them less and deny them workers rights.  They deliberately want to create a slave class in our society.





liberals?  are you high?

its the repubs and the corps that own them that demand the cheap slave labor...
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: DDBY on May 25, 2007, 08:09:15 AM
Uh, they do it illegally usually on a black-market . . . I think
Right.  Certain people (libs) seem to deliberately overlook this.  They like illegal aliens because they can pay them less and deny them workers rights.  They deliberately want to create a slave class in our society.






liberals?  are you high?

its the repubs and the corps that own them that demand the cheap slave labor...
Then why do the Dems insist on defending the wrongs of these criminals invading our baorders.  I dont see Republicans, or Conservatives demonstrating in the street side by side with thier partners in crime.

Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: leostrauss on May 25, 2007, 08:10:46 AM
Uh, they do it illegally usually on a black-market . . . I think
Right.  Certain people (libs) seem to deliberately overlook this.  They like illegal aliens because they can pay them less and deny them workers rights.  They deliberately want to create a slave class in our society.





liberals?  are you high?

its the repubs and the corps that own them that demand the cheap slave labor...

I hear liberals are often high. However, I think libertarians, who are often conservative, are high sometimes as well.

Anyway, you can't say that one party or t'other uses the slave labor . . . it's not a partisan divide
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: ->Soon on May 25, 2007, 08:42:46 AM
Uh, they do it illegally usually on a black-market . . . I think
Right.  Certain people (libs) seem to deliberately overlook this.  They like illegal aliens because they can pay them less and deny them workers rights.  They deliberately want to create a slave class in our society.






liberals?  are you high?

its the repubs and the corps that own them that demand the cheap slave labor...
Then why do the Dems insist on defending the wrongs of these criminals invading our baorders.  I dont see Republicans, or Conservatives demonstrating in the street side by side with thier partners in crime.



beacuse the rich corp slave owners do their protesting behind closed doors...
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: leostrauss on May 25, 2007, 08:47:54 AM
Uh, they do it illegally usually on a black-market . . . I think
Right.  Certain people (libs) seem to deliberately overlook this.  They like illegal aliens because they can pay them less and deny them workers rights.  They deliberately want to create a slave class in our society.






liberals?  are you high?

its the repubs and the corps that own them that demand the cheap slave labor...
Then why do the Dems insist on defending the wrongs of these criminals invading our baorders.  I dont see Republicans, or Conservatives demonstrating in the street side by side with thier partners in crime.



beacuse the rich corp slave owners do their protesting behind closed doors...

You have totally lost me.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: DDBY on May 25, 2007, 08:58:22 AM
I agree with leo, there is a class of people from bowth sides that are guilty of sins against humanity...  I still don't trust the libs, or the Dems.

Actually I'm more of a libertarian.  I have no problem with legitimate legal immigration.  In fact I suspect the system needs to be corrected so that people do not have to break the law to get in.  I believe there may be an element of racism involved (I'm not blaming a partictlar race because we all have evils to answer for). There there are certain groups of people who can come and go as they please while others are constantly interrogated about thier intent when entering the country, and are constantly denied access.

I have firsthand knowlege of this because I'm involved in business ventures in Western, and Southern Africa.  I have seen how the state department handles its temporary visa application for people who have no intention of staying in the U.S. let alone committ crimes in the U.S..

Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: Captain on May 25, 2007, 09:31:32 AM
Personally I am in favor of open (but controlled -- ie: find out who is coming in, but pretty much let everyone who isn't a criminal/terrorist in) borders and free trade. I am also in favor of a free market for labor.

In theory the system I favor leaves everyone smiling and happy.

Of course, until we have a real free-market economy, that won't really be feasible, but I AM WORKING ON IT.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: DDBY on May 25, 2007, 09:32:44 AM
Personally I am in favor of open (but controlled -- ie: find out who is coming in, but pretty much let everyone who isn't a criminal/terrorist in) borders and free trade. I am also in favor of a free market for labor.

In theory the system I favor leaves everyone smiling and happy.

Of course, until we have a real free-market economy, that won't really be feasible, but I AM WORKING ON IT.
Right on Captain!  You have my support.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: ->Soon on May 25, 2007, 10:27:04 AM
Personally I am in favor of open (but controlled -- ie: find out who is coming in, but pretty much let everyone who isn't a criminal/terrorist in) borders and free trade. I am also in favor of a free market for labor.

In theory the system I favor leaves everyone smiling and happy.

Of course, until we have a real free-market economy, that won't really be feasible, but I AM WORKING ON IT.

its getting closer...
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 25, 2007, 12:01:40 PM
In order for their to be an "open borders" system, there needs to be improvements on both sides.  It seems that the U.S. and it's policies are always to blame for the illegal immigration problem.  Americans have very little rights in Mexico (especially Mexican Courts and jails).  The reason people flee Mexico (and other southern countries) for the U.S. is because of the corruption (which has only further damaged their economies). 

And racism....    Those countries are more than happy to get rid of their "indian" populations.  They are racist against the poor, uneducated, unemployed, and darker skinned.  With illegal immigration to the U.S., not only do the elite of those countries "get rid" of the socially undesireables (uneducated, unemployed, darker skinned), but they also MAKE MONEY!  BILLIONS of U.S. dollars are sent back to those countries every year (which end up back in the system and into the pockets of the elite/corrupt). 

Before the U.S. starts making accomodations for those countries and their citizens (which they are heavily lobbying for) they need to show that they are willing to make changes as well.  Until then, the U.S. has every right to build a fence, deport families, etc. 
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: DDBY on May 25, 2007, 12:08:01 PM
In order for their to be an "open borders" system, there needs to be improvements on both sides.  It seems that the U.S. and it's policies are always to blame for the illegal immigration problem.  Americans have very little rights in Mexico (especially Mexican Courts and jails).  The reason people flee Mexico (and other southern countries) for the U.S. is because of the corruption (which has only further damaged their economies). 

And racism....    Those countries are more than happy to get rid of their "indian" populations.  They are racist against the poor, uneducated, unemployed, and darker skinned.  With illegal immigration to the U.S., not only do the elite of those countries "get rid" of the socially undesireables (uneducated, unemployed, darker skinned), but they also MAKE MONEY!  BILLIONS of U.S. dollars are sent back to those countries every year (which end up back in the system and into the pockets of the elite/corrupt). 

Before the U.S. starts making accomodations for those countries and their citizens (which they are heavily lobbying for) they need to show that they are willing to make changes as well.  Until then, the U.S. has every right to build a fence, deport families, etc. 
The Fence won't stop em but I like your statement.  I agree.  That's why the Mexican Gov't does nothing to help.  Mexico does have the money to support its own economy.  They are one of the largest oil producers in the world. 
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: simonsays on May 25, 2007, 08:06:29 PM

free trade is fine.. but why would you want to import poverty?
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: ->Soon on May 30, 2007, 07:09:58 AM
hmmmm, this is exactly what we want, isnt it?

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/atlanta/stories/2007/05/29/0530metimmtuition.html
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: darlinalexi on May 30, 2007, 09:27:52 AM
Ok, I can see the flaws on both sides...

But as far as denying Americans the same thing, there are in-state options for American citizens. If you choose to apply for out of state schools, you are assuming the cost of out of state.  For aliens, it isn't like there is another option. 
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: DDBY on May 30, 2007, 11:03:09 AM
Ok, I can see the flaws on both sides...

But as far as denying Americans the same thing, there are in-state options for American citizens. If you choose to apply for out of state schools, you are assuming the cost of out of state. For aliens, it isn't like there is another option. 
Right and they are welcome to partake if they are here legally.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: Katie08 on May 30, 2007, 11:52:50 AM
Ok, I can see the flaws on both sides...

But as far as denying Americans the same thing, there are in-state options for American citizens. If you choose to apply for out of state schools, you are assuming the cost of out of state. For aliens, it isn't like there is another option. 
Right and they are welcome to partake if they are here legally.

Immigration status- the only crime you can inherit from your parents.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: DDBY on May 30, 2007, 12:03:43 PM
Ok, I can see the flaws on both sides...

But as far as denying Americans the same thing, there are in-state options for American citizens. If you choose to apply for out of state schools, you are assuming the cost of out of state. For aliens, it isn't like there is another option. 
Right and they are welcome to partake if they are here legally.

Immigration status- the only crime you can inherit from your parents.
If your parents are crack heads you get to be a crack baby... Your point?
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 30, 2007, 12:23:46 PM
Whether or not their parents brought them here, they are still illegal.  Parents do many things that affect the lives of their children.  Physical, emotional, sexual abuse.  Some parents teach their kids to be liars, to be racists, etc.  While these don't directly have legal reprecussions, they still shape the child's life. 

Why not just let every Mexican parent who wants their kid to have a better life, throw them over the border?  Since they would be in the U.S., government would have no choice but to take them in. 

Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 30, 2007, 12:40:20 PM
Quote
hmmmm, this is exactly what we want, isnt it?

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/atlanta/stories/2007/05/29/0530metimmtuition.html 

That was a really good article.  It is sad about Macro, but Jan(?) Gonzalez makes a good point.  The U.S. needs to take care of her own citizens.  There is so much poverty and adversity in our own country, among our own citizens.  We need to use our efforts and tax dollars to benefit them. 
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: DDBY on May 30, 2007, 12:52:41 PM
Quote
hmmmm, this is exactly what we want, isnt it?

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/atlanta/stories/2007/05/29/0530metimmtuition.html 

That was a really good article.  It is sad about Macro, but Jan(?) Gonzalez makes a good point.  The U.S. needs to take care of her own citizens.  There is so much poverty and adversity in our own country, among our own citizens.  We need to use our efforts and tax dollars to benefit them. 
Perfect example:Pre-Katrina New Orleans.  The poverty there was worst than some developing countries. 
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: DDBY on May 30, 2007, 12:54:28 PM
Quote
hmmmm, this is exactly what we want, isnt it?

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/atlanta/stories/2007/05/29/0530metimmtuition.html 

That was a really good article.  It is sad about Macro, but Jan(?) Gonzalez makes a good point.  The U.S. needs to take care of her own citizens.  There is so much poverty and adversity in our own country, among our own citizens.  We need to use our efforts and tax dollars to benefit them. 
His parents moved here 15yrs ago.  They had 15 years to get legal.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: Katie08 on May 30, 2007, 12:57:24 PM
And the average backlog, particularly for certain groups of immigrants, is more than 20 years.  'Course, I'm sure you're happy to argue that somehow the people trying to get legal status are responsible for this?
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: DDBY on May 30, 2007, 01:04:04 PM
And the average backlog, particularly for certain groups of immigrants, is more than 20 years.  'Course, I'm sure you're happy to argue that somehow the people trying to get legal status are responsible for this?
No that's the fault of inefficient government, and racist policies for non-European Immagrants.  I know the system is inefficient but that doesn't mean we reward the criminals.

So I can drive without a licence because the lines at the DMV were too long? I can park in handicaped parking without a sticker because the regular spaces aren't close enough and my feet hurt? 
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: Katie08 on May 30, 2007, 01:08:04 PM
There's a big difference between someone who is in processing, and someone who isn't. If you're without a form of state ID because yours expired and you're in line at the DMV and you're unable to show a valid and current ID if the police show up, that's a very different situation from if you're out driving and get pulled over.  For example, my friend was in processing, legally in the country, and because she was limited to a certain amount of time in the country under VAWA, she "timed out" and, had she chosen to continue working towards naturalization, had to live in the country illegally for up to 7 years in order to get her application seen.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: DDBY on May 30, 2007, 01:14:26 PM
There's a big difference between someone who is in processing, and someone who isn't. If you're without a form of state ID because yours expired and you're in line at the DMV and you're unable to show a valid and current ID if the police show up, that's a very different situation from if you're out driving and get pulled over.  For example, my friend was in processing, legally in the country, and because she was limited to a certain amount of time in the country under VAWA, she "timed out" and, had she chosen to continue working towards naturalization, had to live in the country illegally for up to 7 years in order to get her application seen.
She chose not to?  She didnt want to be a criminal.  She's the one we need to protect.  She like thousands of others choose to respect the laws of our land.

The illegals don't, and they don't care about the people who are here legally.  If you want to help go into immigration law and protect the rights of the people who respect our laws.  Like your friend.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: Katie08 on May 30, 2007, 01:21:09 PM
yes, but now that she returned, she's facing a 20+ year wait to be reunited with her mother. I'd rather work on real, good, comprehensive immigration reform, so *&^% like this doesn't happen.

Also, yes, she chose to go back. She was also 26. Are you really asking a 14 year old to make that decision? 16?  What about language barriers? What about family ties? Maybe I was immature for my age, but I definitely wasn't ready to live on my own in a foreign country with a non-native language when I was that age.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: DDBY on May 30, 2007, 01:24:53 PM
yes, but now that she returned, she's facing a 20+ year wait to be reunited with her mother. I'd rather work on real, good, comprehensive immigration reform, so *&^% like this doesn't happen.

Also, yes, she chose to go back. She was also 26. Are you really asking a 14 year old to make that decision? 16?  What about language barriers? What about family ties? Maybe I was immature for my age, but I definitely wasn't ready to live on my own in a foreign country with a non-native language when I was that age.
I'm not asking a child to do anything.  I didn't create the situation.  The parents did.  That what criminals do.  They create bad situations for thier children. You have to draw the line somewhere.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: Katie08 on May 30, 2007, 01:27:13 PM
But you are assuming that anyone here illegally is responsible for it. Assuming you can't check the exact story for every person, that means that you are asking them to do something about it their 18 birthday, right?

And the United States created the situation wherein we have such massive immigration influxes. Our economy depends on millions of below-minimum wage workers without bargaining power or guaranteed labor rights. If we want to play the blame game, everyone shares in the guilt.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: DDBY on May 30, 2007, 01:32:04 PM
But you are assuming that anyone here illegally is responsible for it. Assuming you can't check the exact story for every person, that means that you are asking them to do something about it their 18 birthday, right?

And the United States created the situation wherein we have such massive immigration influxes. Our economy depends on millions of below-minimum wage workers without bargaining power or guaranteed labor rights. If we want to play the blame game, everyone shares in the guilt.
Business owners who hire illegals need to be jailed. PERIOD.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: Katie08 on May 30, 2007, 01:35:07 PM
But you are assuming that anyone here illegally is responsible for it. Assuming you can't check the exact story for every person, that means that you are asking them to do something about it their 18 birthday, right?

And the United States created the situation wherein we have such massive immigration influxes. Our economy depends on millions of below-minimum wage workers without bargaining power or guaranteed labor rights. If we want to play the blame game, everyone shares in the guilt.
Business owners who hire illegals need to be jailed. PERIOD.

Yes, and everyone should eat 5 servings of fruits and vegetables a day. Somehow, I don't see that happening
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: DDBY on May 30, 2007, 01:35:44 PM
But you are assuming that anyone here illegally is responsible for it. Assuming you can't check the exact story for every person, that means that you are asking them to do something about it their 18 birthday, right?

And the United States created the situation wherein we have such massive immigration influxes. Our economy depends on millions of below-minimum wage workers without bargaining power or guaranteed labor rights. If we want to play the blame game, everyone shares in the guilt.
Yea responsibility is tough business.  and some american 16 year olds get tried as adults in criminal court. so since you brought that up they need to start thinking what they are going to do at 16.  16 Year olds pay fed income tax, if they work, as well.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: DDBY on May 30, 2007, 01:37:49 PM
But you are assuming that anyone here illegally is responsible for it. Assuming you can't check the exact story for every person, that means that you are asking them to do something about it their 18 birthday, right?

And the United States created the situation wherein we have such massive immigration influxes. Our economy depends on millions of below-minimum wage workers without bargaining power or guaranteed labor rights. If we want to play the blame game, everyone shares in the guilt.
Business owners who hire illegals need to be jailed. PERIOD.

Yes, and everyone should eat 5 servings of fruits and vegetables a day. Somehow, I don't see that happening
It wont, but they are committing multiple crimes, including crime to humanity.  These are the sam types that will allow child labor violations, and human traffiking for slavery, ans sex.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 30, 2007, 01:46:15 PM
Quote
And the United States created the situation 

Not really....

The countries that these people are fleeing from caused the situation.  These people wouldn't come running to the U.S. if their home countries weren't corrupt.  They should try and fix their own country instead of trying to make the U.S. accomodate them. 

Even if the laws are inefficient, they are still the laws.  That doesn't give you the right to break them. 

It's the parents fault if their kids encounter problems for being illegal.  Their parents shouldn't have been so selfish as to break the law.   Now that they see the consequences, they are upset.   
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: Katie08 on May 30, 2007, 01:48:18 PM
Its not just corruption. The US has deliberately created harder economic situations in many countries. Much of the current immigration is linked to NAFTA, a US sponsored treaty.  Maybe instead of persecuting people, we should stop screwing around with other countries and then complaining about the results
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: DDBY on May 30, 2007, 01:54:29 PM
Its not just corruption. The US has deliberately created harder economic situations in many countries. Much of the current immigration is linked to NAFTA, a US sponsored treaty.  Maybe instead of persecuting people, we should stop screwing around with other countries and then complaining about the results
NAFTA was designed to export labor to cheaper regions.  Nafta was opposed here because the Unions couldn't control foreign labor markets. NAFTA also allows Mexico, and Canada to export goods to the U.S. with minimum tax, and tarifs.  That situation causes the dollar to flood into mexico, and canada.

Find another excuse
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 30, 2007, 01:54:42 PM
Even with the U.S. "screwing" around with other countries, there is SO MUCH corruption south of the border.  Such corruption (created for and by those governments) is destroying economies and keeping foreign companies from investing in their country. 

Not to mention that those same governments WANT illegal immigration to continue.  They get rid of the poorest, most uneducated, the unemployed, and the indigenous.  In return they gain billions of dollars in remitances.  This is just another example of the U.S. being blamed for the problems of other countries. 
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: DDBY on May 30, 2007, 01:56:20 PM
I was in UG before NAFTA was signed, and we had an immigration problem then as well
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 30, 2007, 02:19:40 PM
(a) In general
      Notwithstanding any other provision of law, an alien who is not
    lawfully present in the United States shall not be eligible on the
    basis of residence within a State (or a political subdivision) for
    any postsecondary education benefit unless a citizen or national of
    the United States is eligible for such a benefit
(in no less an
    amount, duration, and scope) without regard to whether the citizen
    or national is such a resident.
    (b) Effective date
      This section shall apply to benefits provided on or after July 1,
    1998.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/8/chapters/14/subchapters/ii/sections/section_1623.html
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 30, 2007, 02:22:22 PM
Claim: "Yes, but children of undocumented workers should not be punished for what their parents did."
 
Response: Should America's citizen students be punished for the illegal acts of illegal-alien parents residing?"
- Since when is the state government in the business of coming to the rescue of adults whose parents committed illegal or imprudent acts?
- Those adult illegal aliens need to go back to mom and dad and hold them accountable.
- In the case of Mexican adult illegal aliens, they can easily return to Mexico to receive a virtually free college education at the University of Mexico.

http://www.theamericanresistance.com/issues/in_state_tuition.html

I don't necessarily agree with everything said in this comment or on this site, but there are some good points. 
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: philibusters on June 01, 2007, 05:28:04 AM
Even with the U.S. "screwing" around with other countries, there is SO MUCH corruption south of the border.  Such corruption (created for and by those governments) is destroying economies and keeping foreign companies from investing in their country. 

Not to mention that those same governments WANT illegal immigration to continue.  They get rid of the poorest, most uneducated, the unemployed, and the indigenous.  In return they gain billions of dollars in remitances.  This is just another example of the U.S. being blamed for the problems of other countries. 

I agree with you that the United States didn't create the corruption in a lot of these third world countries, I am not saying there are not connections, but to put the fault on the United States would totally change the way we put responsibility and blame on parties usually, such as saying the United States is to blame for corruption in countries like Mexico is like saying because I shop at Walmart I partly responsible for how they treat their employees, the analogy is not perfect, but hopefully people understand what I am getting at.

On the other hand, its not factually true that immigrants are the poorest, most uneducated, unemployed in their society, in fact the opposite tends to be true--generalizations about immigrants  might get me in trouble because there are always exceptions, but generally immigrants tend to be of working age, maybe the most common age when they first immigrate is in their 20's, therefore they able to work, they usually are not the least educated and most poor as they almost never emigrate, at some point people give up home, its doubtful that hardly any long time Mexican beggars would ever emigrate, they probably have no skills and two they lost hope and the idea doesn't cross their mind.  Finally, though a lot of immigrants might have been unemployed when they emigrated, probably most of them worked for measley wages and because they are young the trek north seems worthwhile to make a humane wage.  For an older person, the trek north and the hardships that would be encountered, included cultural shock probably is worth the 5 or 10 years they could work in the U.S.  Trust me, their native countries would trade the elderly who can't work any more and beggars who contribute nothing for the people who do emigrate.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: philibusters on June 01, 2007, 05:33:38 AM
(a) In general
      Notwithstanding any other provision of law, an alien who is not
    lawfully present in the United States shall not be eligible on the
    basis of residence within a State (or a political subdivision) for
    any postsecondary education benefit unless a citizen or national of
    the United States is eligible for such a benefit
(in no less an
    amount, duration, and scope) without regard to whether the citizen
    or national is such a resident.
    (b) Effective date
      This section shall apply to benefits provided on or after July 1,
    1998.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/8/chapters/14/subchapters/ii/sections/section_1623.html

Interesting I did not know about that statute.  Its probably constitutional under the interstate commerce clause too, though somewhat ironically after the conservative revolution of states rights, you can't say for sure a court would find it constitutionally, but secondary education is closely enough tied to national economy that the odds are stacked that it would pass judicial review.

That said I think its a bad law, sometimes the national government should let the states make their own decisions.  I have a feeling this law is not enforced though because unless they put a lot of resources into enforcing only the colleges and universities would know and they can't compel colleges and universities to enforce national law. Also I will have to look at the link to see if there are any enforcement provisions, the part quoted is just the law with no enforcement provision, thats not to say section b,c, or d doesn't have that though.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: philibusters on June 01, 2007, 05:40:50 AM
Its not just corruption. The US has deliberately created harder economic situations in many countries. Much of the current immigration is linked to NAFTA, a US sponsored treaty.  Maybe instead of persecuting people, we should stop screwing around with other countries and then complaining about the results

NAFTA should have help Mexico, what happened was democracy got in the way, in 1998 people thought Mexico had the most to gain, well they didn't-why cause they have a weak democracy riddled with corruption, India and China have just beat them in the marketplace because they had authoritarian governments who were able to impose structural economic reform on their countries without even asking the people what they thought.---Thats one thing I didn't like about the Bush doctrine, its encouraged democracy everywhere though we all know that in certain situations like IRAQ, it might not be best-Mexico is another country that might have been better off in some ways if they were not slowed down by a weak democracy-I think democracies are possibly the best form of government over the long haul, but a weak democracy generally is not effective in a global economic marketplace.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: DDBY on June 01, 2007, 09:48:34 AM
I have an Ides.  Instead of In-State Tuition for illegals.  What if they just stayed home and we sent $50,000 per potential illegal to mexico.  Then the pathetic criminals wouldn't have to leave thier homes and be surrounded by strangers.  Infact we should protect thier rights to spend our money how they want so each one should get cash for school.  We should send money for medical care as well.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: ->Soon on June 01, 2007, 11:06:44 AM
and lets not forget

WE ARE AMERICA!

we are the dream for millions, if not BILLIONS of people around the world.

wed be doing a big disservice to both our forefathers, some of whom prob came here illegally, as well as our children and thier children if we didnt educate those within our borders.'

there here, there staying here, lets do all we can to bring them up to a level that will keep America on top for another 100 years...
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: DDBY on June 01, 2007, 11:15:34 AM
We are the Unites States of America.  We are a sovereign nation.  We have laws that every member of the society has agreed to live by.  Illegals immediately show thier lack of interest in obeying, and enforcing those laws.

If you want to make it easier for them, change the racist immigration laws, and processes.  But untill then and illegal is an illegal.  And ecouraging such behavior leads to other crimes against humanity, and our society.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: simonsays on June 01, 2007, 03:01:43 PM
and lets not forget

WE ARE AMERICA!

we are the dream for millions, if not BILLIONS of people around the world.

wed be doing a big disservice to both our forefathers, some of whom prob came here illegally, as well as our children and thier children if we didnt educate those within our borders.'

there here, there staying here, lets do all we can to bring them up to a level that will keep America on top for another 100 years...

this got me thinking... why not instead have a policy change to make public school unmandatory.  Then those citizens and non-citizens alike who don't value education can skip school, eat *&^% and die.  That savings alone could pay for illegals who value education.  (it'd also pay for my retirement)
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: DDBY on June 01, 2007, 06:56:01 PM
and lets not forget

WE ARE AMERICA!

we are the dream for millions, if not BILLIONS of people around the world.

wed be doing a big disservice to both our forefathers, some of whom prob came here illegally, as well as our children and thier children if we didnt educate those within our borders.'

there here, there staying here, lets do all we can to bring them up to a level that will keep America on top for another 100 years...

this got me thinking... why not instead have a policy change to make public school unmandatory.  Then those citizens and non-citizens alike who don't value education can skip school, eat *&^% and die.  That savings alone could pay for illegals who value education.  (it'd also pay for my retirement)

umm... yeah, About that... 
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: Miles Massey on June 05, 2007, 02:10:20 PM
You guys are all focusing on the negatives of this - let's look at the positive side:

If I really want to get in-state tuition from a state that I'm not a resident of, it would appear that I could simply claim to be an illegal alien (or undocumented, or whatever) and gain the lower tuition instead of having to go through the process of actually gaining residency. I mean what are they going to do when you say you are an illegal alien, ask for your papers?!?!

This is great! Saves me lots of money and paperwork to get in-state tuition in other states!
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: 1654134681665465 on June 05, 2007, 02:20:12 PM
That's a good point. 

Except, even as an illegal alien you would still have to show that you attended high school in the state that you seek in-state tuition. 
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: leostrauss on June 05, 2007, 02:28:07 PM
You guys are all focusing on the negatives of this - let's look at the positive side:

If I really want to get in-state tuition from a state that I'm not a resident of, it would appear that I could simply claim to be an illegal alien (or undocumented, or whatever) and gain the lower tuition instead of having to go through the process of actually gaining residency. I mean what are they going to do when you say you are an illegal alien, ask for your papers?!?!

This is great! Saves me lots of money and paperwork to get in-state tuition in other states!


Also, although illegal aliens get away with identity theft and other such felonious deceptions with no penalty, if an American citizen commits such a crime he/she could find him/herself in prison for a very long time. interesting, but true.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: blackpowerman on June 08, 2007, 12:17:45 AM
i have a close friend of mine whose daughter is in 1st grade.  in her class there are 3 illegal immigrant kids who speak NO ENGLISH.  this is in middle class america by the way.  anyways, the mother often volunteers at the school and noticed one day that the teacher spent most of the day trying to translate to the 3 criminal children.  (shut up, they are guilty be association)  anyways, she went to complain and the principal said too bad so sad.  so she wanted to move her kid to the better school down the road but was rejected...

why?
because she wasn't registered as a citizen in that specific county.  on the other hand, those illegal immigrants can have their children ANYWHERE they want.  but because this lady lives in another county, she's stuck with one school choice only.

only in america
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: 1654134681665465 on June 08, 2007, 10:18:31 AM
Just another example of illegal immigrants being an burden on our education system.  And think about all of the money wasted on ESL programs?  This, when schools are begging for more money to fund the education of regular students. 
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: Wunjin on June 08, 2007, 10:42:17 AM
Quote
By denying them the right to an education, we are creating a permanent underclass of people who are unable to meaningfully participate in society.

I'm not saying that we should deny them an education, I am just saying that they shouldn't be given in-state tuition.  In-state tuition in California ($20,000+) is much more expensive than out-of-state tution in Utah ($14,000).  So there are still many options that illegal immigrants have when going to school, I just don't think that an illegal immigrant should be given a government subsidized education. 

As a part of this, can someone be considered a citizen of a State and not of the U.S.? 

Quote
lso, I don't follow your logic.  States shouldn't give in-state tuition to people who've lived in those states because they don't distribute those benefits to people who've never contributed to those states?

They may have lived in those states, but not LEGALLY.  In fact, they aren't legal citizens of ANY state.  I go to school outside of California, and there were several hoops I had to jump through to get residency so that I could pay in-state tuition. 

As for children who were brought here when they were young, it is truly unfortunate that they have to suffer the consequences of their parents mistakes.  However, LEGALLY there are no exceptions.  I might be unfair to them, but it is also unfair that the wonderful people of Africa have to suffer so much more than any Mexican, Central, or South American.  Famine, cruel governments, war, and genocide to a degree that has never been seen south of the U.S. border has plagued that continent for years. 

How is it fair that they have to go through the arduous process to come to the U.S. (or Europe) LEGALLY, while 12 million others cut in front of them because they have easier access to the U.S.? 

The wonderful people of Africa, lol....
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: blackpowerman on June 08, 2007, 10:45:23 AM
you guys are aware that if you try to sneak inside south america from the mexican border....you will be shot to death on the spot.   they have snipers ready to take down intruders

also, mexico has some very strict immigration laws of their own, like non citizens can NOT hold demonstration marches or get involved in politics.  they also give first job preference to their own citizens, etc. 

every mexican that comes here bitching about our policies is a hypocrite criminal!  and vincente fox just laughs it up. 
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: philibusters on June 08, 2007, 03:21:57 PM
i have a close friend of mine whose daughter is in 1st grade.  in her class there are 3 illegal immigrant kids who speak NO ENGLISH.  this is in middle class america by the way.  anyways, the mother often volunteers at the school and noticed one day that the teacher spent most of the day trying to translate to the 3 criminal children.  (shut up, they are guilty be association)  anyways, she went to complain and the principal said too bad so sad.  so she wanted to move her kid to the better school down the road but was rejected...

why?
because she wasn't registered as a citizen in that specific county.  on the other hand, those illegal immigrants can have their children ANYWHERE they want.  but because this lady lives in another county, she's stuck with one school choice only.

only in america

Seems to me the illegals would have to provide an address as proof of residence just the same as the lady who tried to move her kid to another school.  Proof of residence is not the same as citizenship I think you mixing two separate issues to a small extent...however, there needs to be some special program for kids who can't speak English, it is pretty absurd if they whole class has to slow down because of 3 kids in a class of 30, that just doesn't make sense.  I think the woman has a valid complaint that her kids are getting cheated out of an education, her argument she should be allowed to move her kid to the next school doesn't make sense though, as thats based on residency with in a county, which is a separate issue from national citizenship.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: philibusters on June 08, 2007, 03:26:43 PM
Quote
By denying them the right to an education, we are creating a permanent underclass of people who are unable to meaningfully participate in society.

I'm not saying that we should deny them an education, I am just saying that they shouldn't be given in-state tuition.  In-state tuition in California ($20,000+) is much more expensive than out-of-state tution in Utah ($14,000).  So there are still many options that illegal immigrants have when going to school, I just don't think that an illegal immigrant should be given a government subsidized education. 

As a part of this, can someone be considered a citizen of a State and not of the U.S.? 

Quote
lso, I don't follow your logic.  States shouldn't give in-state tuition to people who've lived in those states because they don't distribute those benefits to people who've never contributed to those states?

They may have lived in those states, but not LEGALLY.  In fact, they aren't legal citizens of ANY state.  I go to school outside of California, and there were several hoops I had to jump through to get residency so that I could pay in-state tuition. 

As for children who were brought here when they were young, it is truly unfortunate that they have to suffer the consequences of their parents mistakes.  However, LEGALLY there are no exceptions.  I might be unfair to them, but it is also unfair that the wonderful people of Africa have to suffer so much more than any Mexican, Central, or South American.  Famine, cruel governments, war, and genocide to a degree that has never been seen south of the U.S. border has plagued that continent for years. 

How is it fair that they have to go through the arduous process to come to the U.S. (or Europe) LEGALLY, while 12 million others cut in front of them because they have easier access to the U.S.? 

The wonderful people of Africa, lol....

?????Don't get joke.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: philibusters on June 08, 2007, 03:33:11 PM
you guys are aware that if you try to sneak inside south america from the mexican border....you will be shot to death on the spot.   they have snipers ready to take down intruders

also, mexico has some very strict immigration laws of their own, like non citizens can NOT hold demonstration marches or get involved in politics.  they also give first job preference to their own citizens, etc. 

every mexican that comes here bitching about our policies is a hypocrite criminal!  and vincente fox just laughs it up. 

The sniper thing sounds like a myth or rumor, but I don't doubt that Mexico has lots of restrictions on immigrants and is trying to get rights for its emigrants that it wouldn't dream of givign to those that immigrate to Mexcio.  That doesn't make every mexican that complains about our policy a hypocritical crimina-first off lots of them have temporary work cards so they are not necessarily criminals and secondly it unlikely many of they had much to do with politics other than possible voting (if they were into politics, they would probably not emigrate as they would have a sense of pride and vision for their country) and most of them probably have no idea or at best a vague idea of what laws govern the rights of immigrates in Mexico which probably isn't a national issue in Mexico like it is here.

Also Vicente Fox isn't the President of Mexico anymore.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: queencruella on June 09, 2007, 10:04:18 AM
i have a close friend of mine whose daughter is in 1st grade.  in her class there are 3 illegal immigrant kids who speak NO ENGLISH.  this is in middle class america by the way.  anyways, the mother often volunteers at the school and noticed one day that the teacher spent most of the day trying to translate to the 3 criminal children.  (shut up, they are guilty be association)  anyways, she went to complain and the principal said too bad so sad.  so she wanted to move her kid to the better school down the road but was rejected...

why?
because she wasn't registered as a citizen in that specific county.  on the other hand, those illegal immigrants can have their children ANYWHERE they want.  but because this lady lives in another county, she's stuck with one school choice only.

only in america

Right, because illegal immigrants are just rolling in dough and have extra money to transport their kids to a non-district school miles away instead of taking the school bus to the district school? That makes sense. You have to be assigned to a school based on your residential address- e.g. lease agreement, homestead exemption, utility bill. If a student is going based on someone else's address they need extra documentation to prove that they are a)living with that individual and usually b)that it's because of extreme hardship that they have to live with a person that isn't their parent or legal guardian.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: DDBY on June 09, 2007, 10:15:19 AM
i have a close friend of mine whose daughter is in 1st grade.  in her class there are 3 illegal immigrant kids who speak NO ENGLISH.  this is in middle class america by the way.  anyways, the mother often volunteers at the school and noticed one day that the teacher spent most of the day trying to translate to the 3 criminal children.  (shut up, they are guilty be association)  anyways, she went to complain and the principal said too bad so sad.  so she wanted to move her kid to the better school down the road but was rejected...

why?
because she wasn't registered as a citizen in that specific county.  on the other hand, those illegal immigrants can have their children ANYWHERE they want.  but because this lady lives in another county, she's stuck with one school choice only.

only in america
The children are amung the many victems of thier criminal parents . They have no choice.  If they did they would not have the ability to chose. It's the same as parents who physically abuse thier children.  The parents are criminals but the children are victems.

A 1st grader does not wake up in the morning thinking: "I'm going to go to a foreign country to steal and identification and to live off of the tax payers there while living under the radar.".
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: philibusters on June 09, 2007, 03:54:17 PM
i have a close friend of mine whose daughter is in 1st grade.  in her class there are 3 illegal immigrant kids who speak NO ENGLISH.  this is in middle class america by the way.  anyways, the mother often volunteers at the school and noticed one day that the teacher spent most of the day trying to translate to the 3 criminal children.  (shut up, they are guilty be association)  anyways, she went to complain and the principal said too bad so sad.  so she wanted to move her kid to the better school down the road but was rejected...

why?
because she wasn't registered as a citizen in that specific county.  on the other hand, those illegal immigrants can have their children ANYWHERE they want.  but because this lady lives in another county, she's stuck with one school choice only.

only in america
The children are amung the many victems of thier criminal parents . They have no choice.  If they did they would not have the ability to chose. It's the same as parents who physically abuse thier children.  The parents are criminals but the children are victems.

A 1st grader does not wake up in the morning thinking: "I'm going to go to a foreign country to steal and identification and to live off of the tax payers there while living under the radar.".

I agree its somewhat un-American to classify a person as something because of their parents.  Not saying it doesn't happen all the time in all type of contexts, but one thing the framers of the Constitution did was to abolish all inheritable titles-thus we have no Dukes, or Earls or whatever and that clause in the Constitution stands for the broader  notion that every man is judged only on his own merits.  Granted they are children so its hard to separate them from their parents but still...
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: blackpowerman on June 09, 2007, 09:46:33 PM
The sniper thing sounds like a myth or rumor, but I don't doubt that Mexico has lots of restrictions on immigrants and is trying to get rights for its emigrants that it wouldn't dream of givign to those that immigrate to Mexcio.  That doesn't make every mexican that complains about our policy a hypocritical crimina-first off lots of them have temporary work cards so they are not necessarily criminals and secondly it unlikely many of they had much to do with politics other than possible voting (if they were into politics, they would probably not emigrate as they would have a sense of pride and vision for their country) and most of them probably have no idea or at best a vague idea of what laws govern the rights of immigrates in Mexico which probably isn't a national issue in Mexico like it is here.

Also Vicente Fox isn't the President of Mexico anymore.


you are right, vincent isnt president ANYMORE but he was while a lot of this was hitting its peak.  also, i want to clarify that i didn't mean the children were INTENTIONAL criminals, but they are victims of their parents criminal hood- so i must apologize about that it really was out of line.  no child should have to suffer ever.  please forgive me.

but i want to reiterate that i didnt say every MEXICAN i said every ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT.  every illegal immigrant here is by definition a hypocritical criminal.  and the south america thing i heard on a news show, so it might be biased, but they specifically said that "if you try to enter south america via mexico you will be shot on spot".  ill look for some sources.

also, you guys are right on the residency thing- that's what i meant, she wasn't a resident of said county so she couldn't put her child there. 

Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: Titus on June 21, 2007, 05:28:20 PM
So you're for interpreting the illegal immigration laws as strict liability laws? I'd say yes, but for adults. Then put the burden on the adults to put a reason as to why they illegal immigrated. Kids, however, make no willing decision. I can't interpret strict liability laws on kids.

What is a kid supposed to? Kick and scream to prevent from going to America? Well, gee that requires them to A) understand the law, B) be capable of refusing, and C) be able to support themselves in the event they actually succeed in staying behind while their parents go. Somehow, I don't think a child is really capable of that, even in the most prosperous of countries.

I'd say yes on the in-state tuition but only in cases where the child had no choice in coming across the border. If a child had a choice, then the kid has the choice to pay the out-of-state tuition or get deported. Setting an age requirement (such as attending a high school), seems to be the best way to do this. Worse case scenario, the bill for the difference between in-state/out-state tuition should be sent to the people who smuggled the child across the border.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: blackpowerman on June 21, 2007, 06:23:01 PM
the children need to be deported back along with their parents.  that's just the way it needs to be.  the children didn't commit the crime.

as far as inheriting titles-  if a parent dies and leaves the kid a fortune, the kid isn't going to say "oh no, i didnt earn this, i dont deserve it".  or if the parent is some big name celeb, the kid will more than likely live off their parents name.  you gotta take the good with the bad.  its only fair. 
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: philibusters on June 22, 2007, 05:14:16 AM
the children need to be deported back along with their parents.  that's just the way it needs to be.  the children didn't commit the crime.

as far as inheriting titles-  if a parent dies and leaves the kid a fortune, the kid isn't going to say "oh no, i didnt earn this, i dont deserve it".  or if the parent is some big name celeb, the kid will more than likely live off their parents name.  you gotta take the good with the bad.  its only fair. 

The inheriting titles was meant to illustrate that the constitutional framers had a distaste for parents legal status being passed on to their children, most of them as wealthy men themselves probably didn't even think about whether things like wealth should be allowed to transfer down, they just assumed it should, and would probably not like the inheritance tax much today

I also agree children of illegals need to be sent back if their parents are deported.  No so much cause of the children's status though, but because you can't deprive children of their parents and parents of their children--any government that did that in my opinion would seriously undervalue family life.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: Slim on June 22, 2007, 07:05:07 AM
why limit deportation to illegal immigrants?  there are broad categories of people whose deportation would be beneficial to the country.  seriously, let's ship them all somewhere else. 
Yea! You go first ;)
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: philibusters on June 22, 2007, 07:23:55 PM
why limit deportation to illegal immigrants?  there are broad categories of people whose deportation would be beneficial to the country.  seriously, let's ship them all somewhere else. 

Sounds a little like the death penalty.  If they are that bad, we do get rid of them. whether that is a good idea or bad idea is debateable.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: wellpreserved on June 23, 2007, 08:30:39 AM
Just another example of illegal immigrants being an burden on our education system.  And think about all of the money wasted on ESL programs?  This, when schools are begging for more money to fund the education of regular students. 

While I'm no propenent of immigration, legal or no, per se I thought we should clarify this issue of the cost of ESL. While it varies wildly from district to district, eliminating ESL expenditures would not "fix" the shameful underfunding of our public school systems. In fact, if the percentages of money spent directly on a child versus the money spent to maintain a beaurocracy were to hold steady, then eliminating ESL would only go to hire a new assistant to the assistant superintendent of toilets -- not exactly of benefit to the nice legal (wasp-ish?) child in public schools.

I just caution those of us who would maybe one day half way attempt to support the law not to create legal "beasts of burden" in an attempt to support our feelings on an issue. It does a disservice to the people AND your arguement.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: krystal82 on June 27, 2007, 06:53:52 PM
The primary purpose of In-state tuition is to subsidize the cost of education to make more affordable to those that would otherwise not have the opportunity to attend college. Legal residents and citizens can opt to attend their state school, so at least in theory they do have the same right. Illegal immigrants are technically not residents of any state; however by obtaining physical residency in a state, they can be seen as de facto residents. However, my concern is not the fact they are entitled to this right, but more so the fact that it is good policy. Let's be realistic, to deport 12 million immigrants isn't feasible nor is likely to ever be so. By taking on the cost to educate these people, we are preventing a group from becoming what could possible become detriment to our society (crime, poverty). Perhaps if legislation that allows some means of conditional residency is eventually established, (the only viable solution as I see fit as opposed to mass deportation) they will be productive educated residents rather than a bigger burden. It’s an investment, and while it may encourage further illegal immigration, I still see it as the lesser of two evils. 

On a different note, a previous post discussed a friend who here illegally but in law school. How is this possible? Wouldn’t they not be able to sit for the bar? I suppose law school doesn’t necessarily equate with becoming a lawyer, but I find it difficult to believe someone would incur that much debt only to not be able to practice.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: saz on July 16, 2007, 07:24:11 AM
A Modest Proposal: Send Undocumented Students Home

by Rick Jacobs

Thursday afternoon at Cal State LA, my good friend Erika Glazer joined with progressive heroes Congresswoman Hilda Solis, State Senator Gil Cedillo and Assembly member Hector de la Torre to kick off a major fund to send undocumented students home. The first five students were given a mighty lift on their journey today. You see, we welcomed these smart, tough, determined fighting kids, who have been in the US since they are were as young as one or as old as about ten, to America, because that IS home.

Erika endowed a scholarship program to the tune of $1 million to the Liberty Hill Foundation in Los Angeles last December to assure that the playing field is leveled for at least five undocumented students every year here in California. She did that because she had just finished the process of filling out myriad college applications for her son. She realized that scholarships exist for nearly every "specialty" on the planet, except that undocumented kids are specifically excluded from most and never mentioned in any. If you are Jewish, Catholic, Lutheran, of Irish, Italian, Indian or Israeli decent, if your family hails from Egypt or Syria or Pakistan, if you like math, but don't spell so well, if your dad went to Yale and your mom was a hippie, if you teach horses to count, dogs to speak or birds to swim, you can get a scholarship. But if you are "undocumented," you can work for $6.25 an hour at Burger King.

Sounds fair to me. After all, these kids made the mistake of being born to parents who moved them as babes to the land of opportunity. They planned it out really carefully, just like I planned to be born queer and my sister planned to lose her hearing. That's what kids do; they wait around in the womb until just the right moment to decide their future and then they plague society. (Oh, sorry, that'll get us into the whole stem cell thing and that's for another time.)

Five young men yesterday stood proud and spoke in perfect, unaccented, American English to tell their stories. Two had gotten straight As at Belmont High, one had gone to the downtown magnet school. One of them said that he had gotten such high grades and test scores, that he'd gotten into three University of California schools (think UCLA and Berkeley) and two Cal States. He was delighted when he got the letters of admission, but he was shocked that there was no financial aid. His parents make minimum wage. He has worked a job during high school, but there was no way he could begin to afford college. He thought that, at age 18, he faced a lifetime of minimum wage jobs rather than having a shot at the American dream, at the California dream, at improving society.

His guidance counselor told him about the new Glazer Scholarships. She drove his application to Liberty Hill. Two weeks later he got a full scholarship to Cal State LA. He stopped during his talk, he stopped to cry. It took him a minute to gain his composure, although those of us in the room never did. This fellow was a year old when he arrived in LA. California law requires him to finish twelve grades of education. He did that. But California law then prevents him from getting any help going to college. Go figure. Teach a man to fish, but then take away the water. Sounds good to me.

Most of these kids want to study math and engineering. They want to teach and lead and live in America. Watching them, I could see that they'd be about as comfortable in Mexico or El Salvador as I would in Ukraine, where my grandparents came from.

The immigration issue is thorny and divisive. Along with other forms of the politics of division, it's used by demagogues on the right to scare us, to tell us that somehow these kids will take our jobs and ruin our lives. Sixty years ago, those same sorts of politicians told us that Jews coming to the US would soil our nation, somehow reduce America to a pointy-nosed oligopoly. Even though such low lives as Albert Einstein, Leo Szilard and Edward Teller made it beyond the gates of prejudice, millions more perished in the flames of Nazi Germany.

Over the past decade or so, the gay community has received the benefit of the descendents of the Ku Klux Klan, always robed in the religion of hate, determined to sell us on the idea that a couple of guys down the street would somehow destroy the most powerful country in the history of the world. The only destruction that has occurred is from the far right that teaches its acolytes it is far better to hide and repress oneself than to live and give the most to our America.

These five kids will be doctors and engineers and scientists in a nation that produces fewer and fewer technically competent professionals while China and India graduate more of those self same engineers and scientists than we have kids in college studying anything. They are the new blood of a gene pool that reinvents America every two generations or so and keeps us at the top of the world. I'm really not sure what to do about immigration in the future, but having met these boys yesterday, having seen a school that takes risks to lead in its community, there's no doubt in my mind that national security comes from teaching and relying upon those that we have among us. Each student in turn said, "I don't want special privileges; I want an equal opportunity."

I want the America that brought my grandparents here, that kept my parents from being gassed and that allowed me to flourish, even though I'm not straight, white and protestant. I want the American dream that is a tapestry that gains strength from diversity, not existence from tolerance or power from hatred. I want the America that creates an Erika Glazer, who takes great privilege and assures that our future rests squarely in the minds and hands of those who are most determined to make it strong. That's the America I watched yesterday at Cal State LA and that's the America that will, singularly, deal with the buffeting of globalization we face as the world flattens.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rick-jacobs/a-modest-proposal-send-_b_31635.html?view=print
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: HtownsFinest on July 20, 2007, 03:24:05 PM
Its not just corruption. The US has deliberately created harder economic situations in many countries. Much of the current immigration is linked to NAFTA, a US sponsored treaty.  Maybe instead of persecuting people, we should stop screwing around with other countries and then complaining about the results
LOL @ econ-n00b
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: HtownsFinest on July 20, 2007, 03:27:37 PM
Even with the U.S. "screwing" around with other countries, there is SO MUCH corruption south of the border.  Such corruption (created for and by those governments) is destroying economies and keeping foreign companies from investing in their country. 

Not to mention that those same governments WANT illegal immigration to continue.  They get rid of the poorest, most uneducated, the unemployed, and the indigenous.  In return they gain billions of dollars in remitances.  This is just another example of the U.S. being blamed for the problems of other countries. 
Very true. Also, consider that the world's richest person lives in Mexico. Carlos Slim.
And yes, the Mexican govt. has more or less explicity endorsed illegally emigrating to the US.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: HtownsFinest on July 20, 2007, 03:34:12 PM


A 1st grader does not wake up in the morning thinking: "I'm going to go to a foreign country to steal and identification and to live off of the tax payers there while living under the radar.".
LOL Ignorance of the law =/= innocence.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: HtownsFinest on July 20, 2007, 03:37:13 PM


What is a kid supposed to? Kick and scream to prevent from going to America? Well, gee that requires them to A) understand the law,
See above.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: HtownsFinest on July 20, 2007, 03:43:12 PM
Also, please change the word "undocumented" in all of your lengthy screeds to "illegal." Don't try to put lipstick on a pig.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: aerynn on July 20, 2007, 06:40:09 PM
Also, please change the word "undocumented" in all of your lengthy screeds to "illegal." Don't try to put lipstick on a pig.

Illegal is a pretty broad brush.  If you drive with one headlight out, you are driving "illegally."
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: HtownsFinest on July 20, 2007, 07:04:45 PM
Also, please change the word "undocumented" in all of your lengthy screeds to "illegal." Don't try to put lipstick on a pig.

Illegal is a pretty broad brush.  If you drive with one headlight out, you are driving "illegally."
You know, you're right. And you get pulled over for that. And you will keep getting pulled over until you you fix your headlight, and are operating the vehicle in accordance with the law. Don't make me draw the obvious analogy.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: aerynn on July 20, 2007, 07:16:16 PM
Also, please change the word "undocumented" in all of your lengthy screeds to "illegal." Don't try to put lipstick on a pig.

Illegal is a pretty broad brush.  If you drive with one headlight out, you are driving "illegally."
You know, you're right. And you get pulled over for that. And you will keep getting pulled over until you you fix your headlight, and are operating the vehicle in accordance with the law. Don't make me draw the obvious analogy.

And tell me why this means that the driver with the broken headlight's kids shouldn't be allowed to drive or buy a car with two working headlights?
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: HtownsFinest on July 20, 2007, 07:26:56 PM
Also, please change the word "undocumented" in all of your lengthy screeds to "illegal." Don't try to put lipstick on a pig.

Illegal is a pretty broad brush.  If you drive with one headlight out, you are driving "illegally."
You know, you're right. And you get pulled over for that. And you will keep getting pulled over until you you fix your headlight, and are operating the vehicle in accordance with the law. Don't make me draw the obvious analogy.

And tell me why this means that the driver with the broken headlight's kids shouldn't be allowed to drive or buy a car with two working headlights?

He should be able to. He must remedy the illegality. Likewise, those who come here illegally can remedy their offense by leaving. If they can get into the country by legal means, hurrah!
Thanks for the soft ball, champ!
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: sc3pt0r on July 20, 2007, 07:45:15 PM
Maybe it is the same reasoning used for D.C. residents, since you aren't a member of ANY state, they will grant you in-state tuition in EVERY state.

It's still BS...they should pay the International Student Rate. (The illegal immigrants, not the D.C. kids.)
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: HtownsFinest on July 20, 2007, 07:53:51 PM
Maybe it is the same reasoning used for D.C. residents, since you aren't a member of ANY state, they will grant you in-state tuition in EVERY state.

It's still BS...they should pay the International Student Rate. (The illegal immigrants, not the D.C. kids.)

Exactly. They're foreign nationals--documented to be here or not--so should pay the same as any other international student.
And they should have to apply for student visas... from their home country.. like every other foreign student.
Title: Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
Post by: sc3pt0r on July 20, 2007, 08:00:11 PM
My undergrad had a large population of students from Nigeria.  Unless they qualified (like out of state students) under the Honors Program, or played sports, my university charged the international tuition rate, and the students had to fulfill the requirements of their visas.

One friend of mine couldn't drop a class because he would risk being deported.  Why should he face this trouble, but people who break the law get a free pass?