Law School Discussion

Deciding Where to Go => Choosing the Right Law School => Topic started by: Jay the Great on May 03, 2007, 09:17:08 PM

Title: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Jay the Great on May 03, 2007, 09:17:08 PM
No trolling here.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. US News rankings are arbitrary and overrated. So called "tiers" mean nothing in the real world, and there are some very excellent Tier 3 law schools out there.

Take the Cecil C Humphrey's law school at the University of Memphis. I live in Memphis, and I can comfortably say that the almost all of the city's most successful lawyers graduated from there. That's not to say that a Memphis graduate will go on to be the next Supreme Court Justice, but who cares? They do very well in their region and state on all levels - and I'm sure could do equally well nationally.

So stop this better tier war and go to a law school that is practical for YOU. Quit taking so much consideration in some journal's rankings and decide for yourself.

/rant

And I don't care who agrees with me!
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: paul1454 on May 04, 2007, 09:25:46 AM
I'm not going to a t3, but I do agree that the "go to the best school possible (according to USNWR)" is a bit overrated.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: adlai on May 04, 2007, 09:40:47 AM
I'd actually divide the top 100 USNWR rankings into thirds, with everything from 66-99 being interchangable, 33-66 etc.

But T3 is a big drop-off imo, I mean, they don't even bother to rank them. It's like after Top100 is a no-mans land, I know that it sounds mean, but the fact that they don't even bother to rank the t3 schools makes the schools look bad.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: paul1454 on May 04, 2007, 10:21:44 AM
Exactly.  Outside the top 25, one shouldn't focus so much on rankings in general.  One should be more focused on location and regional reputation in regard to where they would consider practicing than giving the greatest weight to the difference between #37 and #50.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 04, 2007, 10:30:03 AM
It would make more sense to divide up rankings in bulks of fairly equal schools instead of ranking everything. Like, I think everyone agrees that HYS is the top three, but to what degree Yale is better than Harvard and Harvard is better than Stanford is so subjective it doesn't really make sense to separate them. And so it goes downwards. There certainly is a difference between schools, but very marginal and at times quite arbitrary. Then again, the newest USNWR rankings had _a lot_ more ties than it usually does, so maybe it's starting to reflect this. Or maybe it's just a coincidence. Either way, there's plenty of good T3 schools.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 04, 2007, 10:33:42 AM
I'd actually divide the top 100 USNWR rankings into thirds, with everything from 66-99 being interchangable, 33-66 etc.

But T3 is a big drop-off imo, I mean, they don't even bother to rank them. It's like after Top100 is a no-mans land, I know that it sounds mean, but the fact that they don't even bother to rank the t3 schools makes the schools look bad.

Not ranking them makes them look bad, but that doesn't mean that they are bad.  They don't rank them because it's more of a regional debate.  Ranking a T3 in Florida vs. a T3 in Wyoming is ridiculous since most likely the graduates will stay local to their respective schools.  Outside of the top 25, I'd like to see USNWR rank based on geographic regions. 





exactly.  80% of arkansas graduates from both schools stay in arkansas, and both schools have good regional reputations.  its silly for them to compete with creighton or washburn because the graduates wont be working in those regions.

the t2's are even regional, to a great extent
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: yongsoo on May 04, 2007, 10:43:07 AM
So called "tiers" mean nothing in the real world, and there are some very excellent Tier 3 law schools out there.

Take the Cecil C Humphrey's law school at the University of Memphis. I live in Memphis, and I can comfortably say that the almost all of the city's most successful lawyers graduated from there.

I agree with my fellow LSDers on this: that past top 25, it really just comes down to where you want to practice. But to state that "tiers" mean NOTHING in the real world is a bit overboard...unless of course, your real world is limited to Memphis and the surrounding area.

You make a good point that when it comes down to how successful one is in their career, the greater percentage of success is due to individual motivation and perseverance. Unfortunately, the real world isn't quite what our elementary teachers described to us. It takes more than just will power. Sadly, a lot of it is 'who you know' and 'where do you come from.'

You must admit that the Vault top 10 would look more favorably upon a T14 graduate than a T3/T4 Graduate, even though the latter may be more capable. Is this fair? no. (and I hate to use the cliche, but...) "That's the way the [real] world works."
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Boalt 2010 on May 04, 2007, 10:46:08 AM
go to a law school that is practical for YOU.

i agree with this part at least.

however much of your rant doesn't apply to me since i do in fact want to become the next supreme court justice. 

but i realize most people are not the same way.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 04, 2007, 11:08:08 AM
So called "tiers" mean nothing in the real world, and there are some very excellent Tier 3 law schools out there.

Take the Cecil C Humphrey's law school at the University of Memphis. I live in Memphis, and I can comfortably say that the almost all of the city's most successful lawyers graduated from there.

I agree with my fellow LSDers on this: that past top 25, it really just comes down to where you want to practice. But to state that "tiers" mean NOTHING in the real world is a bit overboard...unless of course, your real world is limited to Memphis and the surrounding area.

You make a good point that when it comes down to how successful one is in their career, the greater percentage of success is due to individual motivation and perseverance. Unfortunately, the real world isn't quite what our elementary teachers described to us. It takes more than just will power. Sadly, a lot of it is 'who you know' and 'where do you come from.'

You must admit that the Vault top 10 would look more favorably upon a T14 graduate than a T3/T4 Graduate, even though the latter may be more capable. Is this fair? no. (and I hate to use the cliche, but...) "That's the way the [real] world works."


true, and if thats where one aspires to work, one must take that into consideration.  i just never did.  or do.  or whatever.

and, i could never pass the background check to be a supreme court justice, i'll be lucky to pass character and fitness  :D
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 04, 2007, 11:20:34 AM
Good post, I truly believe what you say, it's all about will power and dedication to do whatever it takes. To some people, success comes easier, whether it's a T14 school, genetics, rich parents, whatever. But if you're smart enough to get into law school, you're smart enough to succeed. At that point, it just comes down to how hard you work. Whatever you scored on your LSAT test is by no means directly related to how well you can perform as a lawyer, don't let semi-arbitrary numbers get you down.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 04, 2007, 11:21:44 AM
Good post, I truly believe what you say, it's all about will power and dedication to do whatever it takes. To some people, success comes easier, whether it's a T14 school, genetics, rich parents, whatever. But if you're smart enough to get into law school, you're smart enough to succeed. At that point, it just comes down to how hard you work. Whatever you scored on your LSAT test is by no means directly related to how well you can perform as a lawyer, don't let semi-arbitrary numbers get you down.


yeah, like gpa
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: pastor of muppets on May 04, 2007, 11:22:13 AM
What a heart warming lesson on personal fortitude, coming from somebody with the handle "money, baby".   ::)
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 04, 2007, 11:23:36 AM
yeah, like gpa

Your GPA is not encoded in your DNA or anything, GPA is a result of hard work. Like I said, some people got it easy, the "good students" who remember a book after looking at the pages for 10 minutes. But if you have the work ethics and the dedication to really really study hard, you can and will get a good GPA.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Money, baby on May 04, 2007, 11:29:19 AM
What a heart warming lesson on personal fortitude, coming from somebody with the handle "money, baby".   ::)

And if you happened to look at the quote in the profile, you'd realize that the handle comes from Swingers - "money, baby" as in "that's so money," which can be construed as "That's fantastic," "jolly good," "nice showing" or other equally positive comments. A great turn-of-phrase originated by the incomparable Vince Vaughn.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 04, 2007, 11:30:44 AM
yeah, like gpa

Your GPA is not encoded in your DNA or anything, GPA is a result of hard work. Like I said, some people got it easy, the "good students" who remember a book after looking at the pages for 10 minutes. But if you have the work ethics and the dedication to really really study hard, you can and will get a good GPA.


i disagree.  in law school, effort does not equal results.  that has been one of the most discouraging things i have found out this first year.

i put in 16-hour days.  never missed a class.  read every damn page.  did my own outlines, read the supplements.

i did get an A in legal writing.  where that differs from other law school exams is that you have time to prepare, revise, rewrite.  not so on a law school essay exam.  "here, take this page and a half fact pattern and give me a memo in 45 minutes.  oh, and by the way, no research materials allowed."

while some people's brains may work that way, mine does not.  which puts me at a significant disadvantage against people who can start writing quickly and just do a memory dump on the paper.

i'm not complaining, because i know i can be a good attorney.  i'm just discouraged because typical essay exams do not realistically measure my knowledge of the material -- as each professor i had a conference with admitted to me.



but then i've been told that being in the top half of the class *is* a good gpa, i just don't believe it, because it was not up to my standard.

Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Reesespbcup on May 04, 2007, 11:33:36 AM
yeah, like gpa

Your GPA is not encoded in your DNA or anything, GPA is a result of hard work. Like I said, some people got it easy, the "good students" who remember a book after looking at the pages for 10 minutes. But if you have the work ethics and the dedication to really really study hard, you can and will get a good GPA.


i disagree.  in law school, effort does not equal results.  that has been one of the most discouraging things i have found out this first year.

i put in 16-hour days.  never missed a class.  read every damn page.  did my own outlines, read the supplements.

i did get an A in legal writing.  where that differs from other law school exams is that you have time to prepare, revise, rewrite.  not so on a law school essay exam.  "here, take this page and a half fact pattern and give me a memo in 45 minutes.  oh, and by the way, no research materials allowed."

while some people's brains may work that way, mine does not.  which puts me at a significant disadvantage against people who can start writing quickly and just do a memory dump on the paper.

i'm not complaining, because i know i can be a good attorney.  i'm just discouraged because typical essay exams do not realistically measure my knowledge of the material -- as each professor i had a conference with admitted to me.



but then i've been told that being in the top half of the class *is* a good gpa, i just don't believe it, because it was not up to my standard.



Do you know what you did wrong? Were you "conclusory"?  :D
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 04, 2007, 11:34:58 AM
Well, I suppose what you define as good GPA is subjective as you say. Top half means you're above average, so that's good. Still, I understand if you feel like you belong in the top 10%, and just can't make it work on the exams. I don't really know any other type of exam than the one you describe. I've never had an exam I can prepare for or "take my time" with. Exams to me has always been getting a 2-3 page sheet, and then some sort of essay-type of question, which is what I got the impression you don't really like?

I still can't see that effort doesn't equal results, you can't really think it's pure random luck that makes the top 10% people top 10%?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 04, 2007, 11:39:32 AM
yeah, like gpa

Your GPA is not encoded in your DNA or anything, GPA is a result of hard work. Like I said, some people got it easy, the "good students" who remember a book after looking at the pages for 10 minutes. But if you have the work ethics and the dedication to really really study hard, you can and will get a good GPA.


i disagree.  in law school, effort does not equal results.  that has been one of the most discouraging things i have found out this first year.

i put in 16-hour days.  never missed a class.  read every damn page.  did my own outlines, read the supplements.

i did get an A in legal writing.  where that differs from other law school exams is that you have time to prepare, revise, rewrite.  not so on a law school essay exam.  "here, take this page and a half fact pattern and give me a memo in 45 minutes.  oh, and by the way, no research materials allowed."

while some people's brains may work that way, mine does not.  which puts me at a significant disadvantage against people who can start writing quickly and just do a memory dump on the paper.

i'm not complaining, because i know i can be a good attorney.  i'm just discouraged because typical essay exams do not realistically measure my knowledge of the material -- as each professor i had a conference with admitted to me.



but then i've been told that being in the top half of the class *is* a good gpa, i just don't believe it, because it was not up to my standard.



Do you know what you did wrong? Were you "conclusory"?  :D


mostly ran out of time.  i cant even start writing until i come up with an outline.  too much formal writing experience perhaps.  maybe its because i've been out of school for 14 years, i dont know.  all i do know is that 1) i was as well prepared as anybody in my class and 2) i busted my ass and did not get the results i wanted

the academic dean reviewed all of my exams and notes and outlines, and came to the conclusion that i worked too hard.   :P 

i'm also severely adhd, and two of my profs recommended that i get additional time through disability services
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 04, 2007, 11:43:54 AM
Well, I suppose what you define as good GPA is subjective as you say. Top half means you're above average, so that's good. Still, I understand if you feel like you belong in the top 10%, and just can't make it work on the exams. I don't really know any other type of exam than the one you describe. I've never had an exam I can prepare for or "take my time" with. Exams to me has always been getting a 2-3 page sheet, and then some sort of essay-type of question, which is what I got the impression you don't really like?

I still can't see that effort doesn't equal results, you can't really think it's pure random luck that makes the top 10% people top 10%?


oh of course not, i dont begrudge them a thing.  all i'm saying is that they didn't work any harder than i did.  however, i will say that i believe that this type of essay exam is geared towards a certain type of learning/writing style.  some people, i believe, will be naturally better at it than others.  for example, i got better grades in legal writing than most of the top 10% -- i am, perhaps, naturally better at that than they are. 

as another example, i am an adequate musician, i work really hard at it.  my son, however, is one of those gifted musicians that doesn't have to work as hard.  and no matter how hard i may work, i will never be as good as he is.


Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: yongsoo on May 04, 2007, 11:45:47 AM
Wrong...sometimes, it takes ONLY will power and perseverance to succeed, despite everyone - including negative people who post on anonymous internet message boards - telling you that you can't or aren't likely to succeed. Success through hard work is the American way - everyone gets the chance to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Yeah, that lazy jerk who managed to get into UPenn may get more chances than you - but he could also help found an internet message board that manages to offend 9 out of 10 social groups and get blackballed by every major firm in his desired job market. You make your own destiny. And, just because a Memphis grad hasn't been a Supreme Court clerk doesn't mean that there won't be one ever.

As for the negative people who say "That's the way the real world works" - that's just an excuse that they tell themselves just in case they fail. It's not my fault, the game was rigged, that guy got more than me, when's it going to be my turn to win, etc. And it's other people who just ignore the nay-sayers and have the positive attitude, strong work ethic, intelligence, and sheer will power who leave them in the dust...

I think you have misinterpreted my post, and I blame myself for not making myself clearer.
The OP stated that tiers have NOTHING to do with the real world.
My response was that they do, in fact, play a part--a substantial part in some cases.

You mistook my post to mean "you cannot succeed, if you don't have yadda yadda."

[edited to fix quote format]
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Reesespbcup on May 04, 2007, 11:49:53 AM
Well, I suppose what you define as good GPA is subjective as you say. Top half means you're above average, so that's good. Still, I understand if you feel like you belong in the top 10%, and just can't make it work on the exams. I don't really know any other type of exam than the one you describe. I've never had an exam I can prepare for or "take my time" with. Exams to me has always been getting a 2-3 page sheet, and then some sort of essay-type of question, which is what I got the impression you don't really like?

I still can't see that effort doesn't equal results, you can't really think it's pure random luck that makes the top 10% people top 10%?


oh of course not, i dont begrudge them a thing.  all i'm saying is that they didn't work any harder than i did.  however, i will say that i believe that this type of essay exam is geared towards a certain type of learning/writing style.  some people, i believe, will be naturally better at it than others.  for example, i got better grades in legal writing than most of the top 10% -- i am, perhaps, naturally better at that than they are. 

as another example, i am an adequate musician, i work really hard at it.  my son, however, is one of those gifted musicians that doesn't have to work as hard.  and no matter how hard i may work, i will never be as good as he is.


So, do you think part of the problem maybe was that you were too concerned with how to say something (ie writing well) rather than just getting it on paper?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 04, 2007, 11:51:41 AM
Well, I suppose what you define as good GPA is subjective as you say. Top half means you're above average, so that's good. Still, I understand if you feel like you belong in the top 10%, and just can't make it work on the exams. I don't really know any other type of exam than the one you describe. I've never had an exam I can prepare for or "take my time" with. Exams to me has always been getting a 2-3 page sheet, and then some sort of essay-type of question, which is what I got the impression you don't really like?

I still can't see that effort doesn't equal results, you can't really think it's pure random luck that makes the top 10% people top 10%?


oh of course not, i dont begrudge them a thing.  all i'm saying is that they didn't work any harder than i did.  however, i will say that i believe that this type of essay exam is geared towards a certain type of learning/writing style.  some people, i believe, will be naturally better at it than others.  for example, i got better grades in legal writing than most of the top 10% -- i am, perhaps, naturally better at that than they are. 

as another example, i am an adequate musician, i work really hard at it.  my son, however, is one of those gifted musicians that doesn't have to work as hard.  and no matter how hard i may work, i will never be as good as he is.


So, do you think part of the problem maybe was that you were too concerned with how to say something (ie writing well) rather than just getting it on paper?

quite probably.   
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Money, baby on May 04, 2007, 12:06:51 PM
I think you have misinterpreted my post, and I blame myself for not making myself clearer.
The OP stated that tiers have NOTHING to do with the real world.
My response was that they do, in fact, play a part--a substantial part in some cases.

You mistook my post to mean "you cannot succeed, if you don't have yadda yadda."


Ahh, I see. *burning soapbox as conciliatory gesture*
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: ty1228 on May 05, 2007, 07:34:45 AM
Why in this whole thread about whether or not working hard pays off, has nobody mentioned that it is precisely hard work that gets people into t-14 schools?  The notion that people get into the t-14 without working hard and coast once they get there is largely a myth (those people are the vast minority).  These people put in work before law school to get to a stage where they could be rewarded for that work.  I agree that people do well all the time by busting their butts at lower ranked schools, but the fact that they are not given as many chances often (notice I say often and not always) means that they did not take advantage of the opportunities to distinguish themselves in undergrad.  You do not have to go to a great or even good undergrad to be accepted into the best law schools.  What I am trying to say is that I don't know why people feel like it is wrong that people at the top schools have more opportunities coming out or that somehow that is against the American self-made man dream.  I personally think that it is perfectly in line with it, and people should start all the hard work earlier if they want to have the same opportunities.  For the record, I had a lot of fun in college and still managed to get good grades and study hard for the LSAT and in my experience so did most of the kids I go to school with.  I also know that I am speaking in generalities.  I am fully aware that there are plenty of reasons people go to lower ranked schools beyond not getting into higher ranked ones.  I am simply saying that often people who do not get into the higher ranked law schools that provide more opportunities could have had they found their work ethic earlier. 
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 05, 2007, 07:45:03 AM
not everyone could go to a traditional college.

i was married with two kids and active duty.  i got moved around during the middle of semesters, sent on deployments, etc etc etc.  i also taught at a community college part time. 

so my little 3.1 that i earned in undergrad reflects a lot more than what it seems. 

i earned my masters (3.47) while working two jobs.

i didn't get to party in college.  i didn't get to go to football games, join a fraternity, or chase undergrads.  i was busy putting food on my table.

i begrudge those who had the financial support to go to a traditional college, did well, and got into a top law school.  nor am i doing the 'woe is me' thing.   you play the cards you're dealt.  but the playing field is as even as it might seem.

so please don't assume that those of us who couldn't get into top ranked law schools had no work ethic.  i've been working for this opportunity for 28 years.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: ty1228 on May 05, 2007, 07:50:41 AM
That's impressive to be sure.  However, you might want to read a post before responding.  Nowhere did I say that all people had an even playing field and in fact I made a point of saying often not always in a paranthetical to ward off precisely the kind of comment you gave.  I was not posting about people like you.  I'm sure everything is true that you said and I congratulate you for working so hard.  But, you are certainly non-traditional in the law school process.  I think you would have recognized that if you had read carefully instead of reacting so quickly.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: queencruella on May 05, 2007, 07:54:54 AM
yeah, like gpa

Your GPA is not encoded in your DNA or anything, GPA is a result of hard work. Like I said, some people got it easy, the "good students" who remember a book after looking at the pages for 10 minutes. But if you have the work ethics and the dedication to really really study hard, you can and will get a good GPA.


i disagree.  in law school, effort does not equal results.  that has been one of the most discouraging things i have found out this first year.

i put in 16-hour days.  never missed a class.  read every damn page.  did my own outlines, read the supplements.

i did get an A in legal writing.  where that differs from other law school exams is that you have time to prepare, revise, rewrite.  not so on a law school essay exam.  "here, take this page and a half fact pattern and give me a memo in 45 minutes.  oh, and by the way, no research materials allowed."

while some people's brains may work that way, mine does not.  which puts me at a significant disadvantage against people who can start writing quickly and just do a memory dump on the paper.

i'm not complaining, because i know i can be a good attorney.  i'm just discouraged because typical essay exams do not realistically measure my knowledge of the material -- as each professor i had a conference with admitted to me.



but then i've been told that being in the top half of the class *is* a good gpa, i just don't believe it, because it was not up to my standard.



I totally agree with this since I am more like you. One thing I see during exams is that the people in front of me are on question 7-8 while I'm still plodding away at question 3-4. There are plenty of people who work hard and don't get into a T14 because of the LSAT, and plenty of people who are simply great test-takers and can coast by with lower GPAs and still get in.

bg1822, your argument is innately discriminatory against older students. I think a big problem in the field is that so many students come into school straight out of undergrad not really knowing why they want to be in law school, but since they did well in undergrad, they just go to law school. Meanwhile the rest of us who had no clue what we wanted to do in undergrad or wanted to do something else and then decided to switch careers are at a disadvantage because we didn't spend our whole undergrad career resume padding to get into a great law school or have a year of free time to study for the LSAT because we're working full-time.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 05, 2007, 07:58:51 AM
Why in this whole thread about whether or not working hard pays off, has nobody mentioned that it is precisely hard work that gets people into t-14 schools?  The notion that people get into the t-14 without working hard and coast once they get there is largely a myth (those people are the vast minority).  These people put in work before law school to get to a stage where they could be rewarded for that work.  I agree that people do well all the time by busting their butts at lower ranked schools, but the fact that they are not given as many chances often (notice I say often and not always) means that they did not take advantage of the opportunities to distinguish themselves in undergrad.  You do not have to go to a great or even good undergrad to be accepted into the best law schools.  What I am trying to say is that I don't know why people feel like it is wrong that people at the top schools have more opportunities coming out or that somehow that is against the American self-made man dream.  I personally think that it is perfectly in line with it, and people should start all the hard work earlier if they want to have the same opportunities.  For the record, I had a lot of fun in college and still managed to get good grades and study hard for the LSAT and in my experience so did most of the kids I go to school with.  I also know that I am speaking in generalities.  I am fully aware that there are plenty of reasons people go to lower ranked schools beyond not getting into higher ranked ones.  I am simply saying that often people who do not get into the higher ranked law schools that provide more opportunities could have had they found their work ethic earlier. 




it was mostly your last line i was responding to, without seeing the 'often'

nothing personal.  i have five finals beginning monday and i need a root canal.  i should just stop posting until i'm done because i've been getting into fights with everybody.    :P
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Nontradloserwhoattendsatier2onstudentloansheis on May 05, 2007, 08:09:35 AM
No trolling here.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. US News rankings are arbitrary and overrated. So called "tiers" mean nothing in the real world, and there are some very excellent Tier 3 law schools out there.

Take the Cecil C Humphrey's law school at the University of Memphis. I live in Memphis, and I can comfortably say that the almost all of the city's most successful lawyers graduated from there. That's not to say that a Memphis graduate will go on to be the next Supreme Court Justice, but who cares? They do very well in their region and state on all levels - and I'm sure could do equally well nationally.

So stop this better tier war and go to a law school that is practical for YOU. Quit taking so much consideration in some journal's rankings and decide for yourself.

/rant

And I don't care who agrees with me!

So true. A tier 3 student can get any job they want. That's why I'm borrowing so much money to attend one. It's a drop in the bucket compared to all the money I will make when I graduate.

Question, I'm not sure if I should work in biglaw, do a clerkship or become a professor after I graduate. What do you recommend?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: plex on May 05, 2007, 10:07:20 AM
Actually, there is one type of student in a tier 3 (beyond the top 5-10%) who have a good shot in biglaw, and those are the ones who have one of the "hot" technical degrees and are going into IP law. They still have to do fairly well, but the big firms dip down a good bit farther for those types of people. Less than 1% of law students fall into this category though, at any school.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: strongmace on May 05, 2007, 10:23:19 AM
Actually, there is one type of student in a tier 3 (beyond the top 5-10%) who have a good shot in biglaw, and those are the ones who have one of the "hot" technical degrees and are going into IP law. They still have to do fairly well, but the big firms dip down a good bit farther for those types of people. Less than 1% of law students fall into this category though, at any school.

yay engineering!
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: queencruella on May 05, 2007, 10:24:01 AM
Actually, there is one type of student in a tier 3 (beyond the top 5-10%) who have a good shot in biglaw, and those are the ones who have one of the "hot" technical degrees and are going into IP law. They still have to do fairly well, but the big firms dip down a good bit farther for those types of people. Less than 1% of law students fall into this category though, at any school.

yay engineering!

Lot of those jobs actually ask for both undergrad AND LS transcripts though. So isn't a cakewalk by any means.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: strongmace on May 05, 2007, 10:31:48 AM
Actually, there is one type of student in a tier 3 (beyond the top 5-10%) who have a good shot in biglaw, and those are the ones who have one of the "hot" technical degrees and are going into IP law. They still have to do fairly well, but the big firms dip down a good bit farther for those types of people. Less than 1% of law students fall into this category though, at any school.

yay engineering!

Lot of those jobs actually ask for both undergrad AND LS transcripts though. So isn't a cakewalk by any means.

yay for my gpa being pretty solid
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Tulane1L on May 05, 2007, 10:45:27 AM
Methinks the importance of rankings is blown out of proportions on these boards.

Obviously there is a difference in job opportunities between Harvard and East Boise Law School.  But surely very few people are chooing between Yale and Southern University....If you get into a top school, great, milk it, you will have lots of amazing oportunities.

If you don't, or you have to go to a lower ranked school for family or money reasons or whatever, great, go, you will still have some great job oportunities.  Yes, there are people who regret going to a lower ranked law school.  There are people that went to top schools that regret going to law school at all.  And there are people that do borrow $150k to go to tier 4 schools, and they handle it and end up just fine, just like there are people that wish they had made other choices.

So stop all the hate between the top schools and "bottom" schools - be happy that everyone is getting to pursue the career/degree that they want, whether it be from Cooley or Stanford.  There is no reason to try to make someone feel bad about the school that they are attending, and moreover, there is no reason to "open someone's eyes" to the debt or lack of job opportunites that they might have.  Especially when you haven't been to a single day of law school yet, and seen that it is *not* exactly like 0Ls on a message board would have you believe.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: nealric on May 05, 2007, 10:54:02 AM
I agree that there is nothing wrong with a t2/3/4 school.

However, I think those designations represent a huge "buyer beware" stamp.
There are some t3/t4 that are actually good, well respected local schools (many of the smaller state schools). There are some that are a terrible idea for almost anybody (cooley, ave maria, etc.).

I think mostly you have to approach them soberly if anything and understand the possibility that the debt could be crippling (which is a possibility from any school frankly)
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 05, 2007, 10:54:51 AM
Especially when you haven't been to a single day of law school yet, and seen that it is *not* exactly like 0Ls on a message board would have you believe.

My friends at a middling Tier 1 school have basically confirmed that what is said on message boards is by and large true. 

The ones with median GPAs have nothing even 2L summer, ones in top 20% have local biglaw lined up.

Your posts are so dumb I can feel my braincells getting suicidal.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 05, 2007, 10:55:34 AM
Especially when you haven't been to a single day of law school yet, and seen that it is *not* exactly like 0Ls on a message board would have you believe.

My friends at a middling Tier 1 school have basically confirmed that what is said on message boards is by and large true. 

The ones with median GPAs have nothing even 2L summer, ones in top 20% have local biglaw lined up.


t3.  state school.  top 50%.  summer clerkship as a 1L.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Swibbles on May 05, 2007, 10:59:26 AM
fyi: there's something wrong with every school.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 05, 2007, 11:01:48 AM
If you can't get a summer job at the median of a T1 school, you are the problem, not the school.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Tulane1L on May 05, 2007, 11:04:52 AM
Especially when you haven't been to a single day of law school yet, and seen that it is *not* exactly like 0Ls on a message board would have you believe.

My friends at a middling Tier 1 school have basically confirmed that what is said on message boards is by and large true. 

The ones with median GPAs have nothing even 2L summer, ones in top 20% have local biglaw lined up.


t3.  state school.  top 50%.  summer clerkship as a 1L.

Yeah...there are plenty of 1Ls at my school that are not in the top of the class, or even in the top half, that have good summer gigs lined up.  I am not in the top 10%, or even close, and got plenty of interviews, and am doing exactly what I want to do this summer.

Grades are important.  So is personality.  And so is who you know.  Really, at any given school, there will be top students that don't get the jobs they want, and bottom students who do.  And it will seem like a mystery as to why if you think that *all* that matters is school ranking and grades.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: queencruella on May 05, 2007, 11:09:31 AM
Especially when you haven't been to a single day of law school yet, and seen that it is *not* exactly like 0Ls on a message board would have you believe.

My friends at a middling Tier 1 school have basically confirmed that what is said on message boards is by and large true. 

The ones with median GPAs have nothing even 2L summer, ones in top 20% have local biglaw lined up.


t3.  state school.  top 50%.  summer clerkship as a 1L.

Yeah...there are plenty of 1Ls at my school that are not in the top of the class, or even in the top half, that have good summer gigs lined up.  I am not in the top 10%, or even close, and got plenty of interviews, and am doing exactly what I want to do this summer.

Grades are important.  So is personality.  And so is who you know.  Really, at any given school, there will be top students that don't get the jobs they want, and bottom students who do.  And it will seem like a mystery as to why if you think that *all* that matters is school ranking and grades.

Same at my school- lots of us less than stellar students have summer clerkships lined up with federal judges or other jobs they were quite happy to get, while students much nearer to the top of the pack didn't get something all that desirable. I think it has as much to do with as much effort you put into the job search. You can't expect your school to be of any use and have to do the networking/searching on your own.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Nontradloserwhoattendsatier2onstudentloansheis on May 05, 2007, 11:14:39 AM
Especially when you haven't been to a single day of law school yet, and seen that it is *not* exactly like 0Ls on a message board would have you believe.

My friends at a middling Tier 1 school have basically confirmed that what is said on message boards is by and large true. 

The ones with median GPAs have nothing even 2L summer, ones in top 20% have local biglaw lined up.


t3.  state school.  top 50%.  summer clerkship as a 1L.

Me too brah. $12 an hour baby!!!!!!
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 05, 2007, 11:15:42 AM
See, this is the problem with you retarded prestige whores. If it isn't a big firm, it's not a job right? For the 794th time - we know that if you want to be an associate at Wachtell you need to go to a top school. Stop beating the dead horse, you have nothing new to add to a discussion - ever.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: queencruella on May 05, 2007, 11:16:29 AM
Especially when you haven't been to a single day of law school yet, and seen that it is *not* exactly like 0Ls on a message board would have you believe.

My friends at a middling Tier 1 school have basically confirmed that what is said on message boards is by and large true. 

The ones with median GPAs have nothing even 2L summer, ones in top 20% have local biglaw lined up.

A low-paying clerkship is "something" not nothing as you have asserted. Plus, doesn't your sig say you were accepted to no law schools? I don't know if I would trust the quality of your friends.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Nontradloserwhoattendsatier2onstudentloansheis on May 05, 2007, 11:19:00 AM
See, this is the problem with you retarded prestige whores. If it isn't a big firm, it's not a job right? For the 794th time - we know that if you want to be an associate at Wachtell you need to go to a top school. Stop beating the dead horse, you have nothing new to add to a discussion - ever.

These people are morons. I'm making twelve (12) dollars ($) an hour this summer. You think a nontrad failure like could make this kind of payola without my sweet tier 2 degree? Puleeze.

Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Nontradloserwhoattendsatier2onstudentloansheis on May 05, 2007, 11:23:51 AM
See, this is the problem with you retarded prestige whores. If it isn't a big firm, it's not a job right? For the 794th time - we know that if you want to be an associate at Wachtell you need to go to a top school. Stop beating the dead horse, you have nothing new to add to a discussion - ever.

You're still not getting it now are you.

If somebody is ok with an approximately 15 year time to ROI going in, good for them.  But the point is that it will take a looooooong time to get back to the place you would have been without law school.

I don't get in to a top school, I go to a startup after doing my time in corp america, I'm not in any hole in any case.

Looooser alert

Look, you don't want it bad enough. Let me tell you how I got my sweet twelve (12) dollar ($) an hour job. I was balls to the wall. I went into it with the attitude that I would suck a herpetic male private part for an offer. I wanted it bad. I handed out resumes in the lobby to get my job. You can't just expect oh see eye to hook you up. You have to want it.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: queencruella on May 05, 2007, 11:24:08 AM
See, this is the problem with you retarded prestige whores. If it isn't a big firm, it's not a job right? For the 794th time - we know that if you want to be an associate at Wachtell you need to go to a top school. Stop beating the dead horse, you have nothing new to add to a discussion - ever.

You're still not getting it now are you.

If somebody is ok with an approximately 15 year time to ROI going in, good for them.  But the point is that it will take a looooooong time to get back to the place you would have been without law school.

I don't get in to a top school, I go to a startup after doing my time in corp america, I'm not in any hole in any case.

My pre-law salary- $37K. My post-law school salary= $40K if I were in the same career. 10 years down the road? Maybe $50K. Even a T3 would give me a quicker ROI than 15 years.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 05, 2007, 11:24:46 AM
If somebody is ok with an approximately 15 year time to ROI going in, good for them.

Good, now @#!* off, please. You do nothing but female dog, troll and whine on behalf of others. You're probably the most useless person who has ever been able to hook up a computer to the internet.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Nontradloserwhoattendsatier2onstudentloansheis on May 05, 2007, 11:28:18 AM
My pre-law salary- $37K. My post-law school salary= $40K if I were in the same career. 10 years down the road? Maybe $50K. Even a T3 would give me a quicker ROI than 15 years.

I guess for you it makes sense then.

You make me sick you loser.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: queencruella on May 05, 2007, 11:29:42 AM
My pre-law salary- $37K. My post-law school salary= $40K if I were in the same career. 10 years down the road? Maybe $50K. Even a T3 would give me a quicker ROI than 15 years.

I guess for you it makes sense then.

The median salary for people with a bachelor's degree in the US is $38K for women and around $51K for men. I'd say it makes sense for most people since coming out of law school you'll probably make that much to start. You are just out of touch with reality.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Nontradloserwhoattendsatier2onstudentloansheis on May 05, 2007, 11:31:00 AM
My pre-law salary- $37K. My post-law school salary= $40K if I were in the same career. 10 years down the road? Maybe $50K. Even a T3 would give me a quicker ROI than 15 years.

I guess for you it makes sense then.

The median salary for people with a bachelor's degree in the US is $38K for women and around $51K for men. I'd say it makes sense for most people since coming out of law school you'll probably make that much to start. You are just out of touch with reality.

That nincompoop thinks he really has to pay the $1,700 monthly student loan payments. That's just the man trying to scare you. You don't have to really pay that sh*t. Throw that bill in the motherfucking trash.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: strongmace on May 05, 2007, 11:34:11 AM
Quote
That nincompoop thinks he really has to pay the $1,700 monthly student loan payments. That's just the man trying to scare you. You don't have to really pay that sh*t. Throw that bill in the motherfucking trash.

Dude, you're a retard.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: queencruella on May 05, 2007, 11:36:47 AM
Quote
That nincompoop thinks he really has to pay the $1,700 monthly student loan payments. That's just the man trying to scare you. You don't have to really pay that sh*t. Throw that bill in the motherfucking trash.

Dude, you're a retard.

Most people at T3/T4 schools don't have $1700/month loan payments. That's really on the high end in any situation, but as a whole, T3/4 schools are not as expensive as T1 schools.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 05, 2007, 11:57:56 AM
See, this is the problem with you retarded prestige whores. If it isn't a big firm, it's not a job right? For the 794th time - we know that if you want to be an associate at Wachtell you need to go to a top school. Stop beating the dead horse, you have nothing new to add to a discussion - ever.

You're still not getting it now are you.

If somebody is ok with an approximately 15 year time to ROI going in, good for them.  But the point is that it will take a looooooong time to get back to the place you would have been without law school.

I don't get in to a top school, I go to a startup after doing my time in corp america, I'm not in any hole in any case.

Looooser alert

Look, you don't want it bad enough. Let me tell you how I got my sweet twelve (12) dollar ($) an hour job. I was balls to the wall. I went into it with the attitude that I would suck a herpetic male private part for an offer. I wanted it bad. I handed out resumes in the lobby to get my job. You can't just expect oh see eye to hook you up. You have to want it.

i may be working for 12 bucks an hour, but i will *always* own you.

always.

you could be chief justice of the f-ing supreme court, and you would still be my b!tch


anytime, anywhere, you dipdunk no-load pencil necked little geek.








Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Tulane1L on May 05, 2007, 12:04:43 PM
The median salary for people with a bachelor's degree in the US is $38K for women and around $51K for men. I'd say it makes sense for most people since coming out of law school you'll probably make that much to start. You are just out of touch with reality.

um.

http://bwnt.businessweek.com/bschools/undergraduate/07rankings/index.asp
http://www.ere.net/blogs/Looking_Toward_the_Future/99F80AB060844B5EB6BAEAAA47C2693C.asp

Mechanical Engineering graduates - $54,587 (up 7.7 percent from last year’s average)
Chemical Engineering graduates - $60, 054 (up 7.4 percent from last year’s average)
Electrical Engineering graduates - $54, 599 (up 3.2 percent from 06)
Computer Science graduates - $51,070 (up 2% from last year’s average starting salary)
Civil Engineering graduates - $47,145
Finance graduates - $47,905
Economics Majors - $51,631

Um.  $51k median?  So what?  Above are STARTING SALARIES.

I wonder what the percentage of engineering/econ majors is to liberal arts majors?

Surely you don't think the average english lit major is going to earn 50K to start?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: plex on May 05, 2007, 12:04:58 PM
Those top 5 you listed, if they go into IP law, get a significant starting salary boost over other law students. So a law degree is also a significant boost for them as well.

50K is probably high as an undergrad median, but there are far more male engineers than there are females, my school, for instance, had a 20:1 ratio. So males do make more on average, but it is mostly because of they choose the more lucrative degrees.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 05, 2007, 12:09:02 PM
Those top 5 you listed, if they go into law, get a significant starting salary boost over other law students, at least if they go into IP law.

As far as I can see, apart from one firm in Atlanta, you get $160k across the board, there's no boost in salary to engineers.  Does it show up in bonuses?

No, but you get a $160k job where with another UG major you would have gotten a $120k job.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Tulane1L on May 05, 2007, 12:09:34 PM
Those top 5 you listed, if they go into law, get a significant starting salary boost over other law students, at least if they go into IP law.

As far as I can see, apart from one firm in Atlanta, you get $160k across the board, there's no boost in salary to engineers.  Does it show up in bonuses?

Reading this is actually making me less smart, so I am leaving.

Congrats to everyone, no matter what law school you are going to.  And for the people who just don't get it...well, I do feel sorry for you...
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: plex on May 05, 2007, 12:10:27 PM
IP lawyers make more in every city, across the board, you would have to search hard for a place where they are not payed more, either at the small, medium or big level. 160K is in the high end of biglaw in NY, for a normal lawyer, it is higher for an IP lawyer there. Perhaps Atlanta is mirroring NY.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Nontradloserwhoattendsatier2onstudentloansheis on May 05, 2007, 12:19:47 PM
IP lawyers make more in every city, across the board, you would have to search hard for a place where they are not payed more, either at the small, medium or big level. 160K is in the high end of biglaw in NY, for a normal lawyer, it is higher for an IP lawyer there. Perhaps Atlanta is mirroring NY.

Huh?

LA just moved to $160k.
SF and SD will be at $160k soon.
DC won't be able to hold at $145k much longer either.
Chicago is bound to follow Kirkland's lead.

Most major markets will be at $160k for '08.

Your comment is interesting though, I was unaware that biglaw pays IP more.  At best I thought they occasionally got a bigger signing bonus, but the same salary structure.

$160,000 GUARANTEED? WTF BE IP AND HOW DO I GET IT?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: themanwithnoname on May 05, 2007, 12:37:50 PM
??? You do know that this is the salary in NY biglaw right?

Incidentally I think a lto of the anti tier 3 sentiment comes from the fact that the tier 3s most students at top schools are familiar with are the ones in major markets (NYLS for instance) which have crappy job prospects b/c of the sheer number of good schools in the market.

IP lawyers make more in every city, across the board, you would have to search hard for a place where they are not payed more, either at the small, medium or big level. 160K is in the high end of biglaw in NY, for a normal lawyer, it is higher for an IP lawyer there. Perhaps Atlanta is mirroring NY.

Huh?

LA just moved to $160k.
SF and SD will be at $160k soon.
DC won't be able to hold at $145k much longer either.
Chicago is bound to follow Kirkland's lead.

Most major markets will be at $160k for '08.

Your comment is interesting though, I was unaware that biglaw pays IP more.  At best I thought they occasionally got a bigger signing bonus, but the same salary structure.

$160,000 GUARANTEED? WTF BE IP AND HOW DO I GET IT?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 05, 2007, 12:41:56 PM
Well, NYLS doesn't have crappy job prospects, it has crappy big law prospects perhaps. But still, for a tier 3 school it actually places fairly good in big law too, most tier 3 schools who are more dominant in their region are actually in regions who do not have big law firms at all.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: themanwithnoname on May 05, 2007, 12:43:20 PM
Well, NYLS doesn't have crappy job prospects, it has crappy big law prospects perhaps. But still, for a tier 3 school it actually places fairly good in big law too, most tier 3 schools who are more dominant in their region are actually in regions who do not have big law firms at all.

it has better job prospects, but thats not saying too much. We are talking about a half dozen people getting biglaw. But the non-biglaw prospects are better if you are at a t3 school in a smaller market without much ocmpetition.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: pastor of muppets on May 05, 2007, 01:11:04 PM
Waitlisted,

Please f*ck off.

Thank you,
Reasonable People
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 05, 2007, 01:15:11 PM
Well, NYLS doesn't have crappy job prospects, it has crappy big law prospects perhaps. But still, for a tier 3 school it actually places fairly good in big law too, most tier 3 schools who are more dominant in their region are actually in regions who do not have big law firms at all.

it has better job prospects, but thats not saying too much. We are talking about a half dozen people getting biglaw. But the non-biglaw prospects are better if you are at a t3 school in a smaller market without much ocmpetition.

No, that's way too negative, although top 10% to have a chance at big law is reasonable. That's quite a lot more than half a dozen. But big law isn't the end all be all of being a lawyer.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: themanwithnoname on May 05, 2007, 01:33:04 PM
Well, NYLS doesn't have crappy job prospects, it has crappy big law prospects perhaps. But still, for a tier 3 school it actually places fairly good in big law too, most tier 3 schools who are more dominant in their region are actually in regions who do not have big law firms at all.

it has better job prospects, but thats not saying too much. We are talking about a half dozen people getting biglaw. But the non-biglaw prospects are better if you are at a t3 school in a smaller market without much ocmpetition.

No, that's way too negative, although top 10% to have a chance at big law is reasonable. That's quite a lot more than half a dozen. But big law isn't the end all be all of being a lawyer.

Where do you see the stats on that? Also, my point is that the NY market gets very crappy once out of biglaw and a few midlaw firms. People not in NY have it much better.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 05, 2007, 02:01:19 PM
Where do you see the stats on that? Also, my point is that the NY market gets very crappy once out of biglaw and a few midlaw firms. People not in NY have it much better.
Vault.com mainly. On what do you base that NY is crappy outside big law?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Jen2bJD on May 05, 2007, 03:27:32 PM
tag.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: jillibean on May 05, 2007, 03:55:28 PM
I think people on this site especially look at rankings and the schools that people choose as another way to judge. Outside of the Ivy Leagues I don't think it matters- but thats my opinion. W&L will do the same for me in New Mexico as Uof Miami will.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Some Comfort Gained From the Acceptance of the Inherent Lies in Everything on May 05, 2007, 03:58:16 PM
I think people on this site especially look at rankings and the schools that people choose as another way to judge. Outside of the Ivy Leagues I don't think it matters- but thats my opinion. W&L will do the same for me in New Mexico as Uof Miami will.

You really think so, huh?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: themanwithnoname on May 05, 2007, 04:17:57 PM
I think people on this site especially look at rankings and the schools that people choose as another way to judge. Outside of the Ivy Leagues I don't think it matters- but thats my opinion. W&L will do the same for me in New Mexico as Uof Miami will.
Yep its just the ivy league

Cornell: Amazing

Stanford: well it doesn't really matter.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Nontradloserwhoattendsatier2onstudentloansheis on May 05, 2007, 04:30:19 PM
I think people on this site especially look at rankings and the schools that people choose as another way to judge. Outside of the Ivy Leagues I don't think it matters- but thats my opinion. W&L will do the same for me in New Mexico as Uof Miami will.

That's right. I decide if my law school matters, and I decided it doesn't. Any hiring manager who disagrees is going to have to answer to ME. Got that?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: strongmace on May 05, 2007, 07:58:29 PM
so, is waitlisted one of these e-thugs i've been hearing about?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: plex on May 05, 2007, 08:09:34 PM
Buying repo's is a whole different situation, instead of offering someone a loan with insanely inflated interest, in which they actually expect a large number to default, someone is taking property off the banks hands, which was repo'd because someone made a very poor series of financial decisions.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: AntiGunner on May 05, 2007, 09:22:44 PM
You people can keep dreaming if you want, however, the fact is, going to a T3 is a huge waste of your time. You will come out with tons of debt and no one is going to hire you, because quite frankly if you could only get into a TTT, you aren't very bright. This is probably why you don't realize why attending such a dump is a horrible idea. Enjoy selling your souls to the bank for an ultimately useless paper, maybe i'll need a paralegal soon (nevermind, I think I can find some second tier grads to do that for me)
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 05, 2007, 09:27:10 PM
You people can keep dreaming if you want, however, the fact is, going to a T3 is a huge waste of your time. You will come out with tons of debt and no one is going to hire you, because quite frankly if you could only get into a TTT, you aren't very bright. This is probably why you don't realize why attending such a dump is a horrible idea. Enjoy selling your souls to the bank for an ultimatly useless paper, maybe i'll need a paralegal soon (nevermind, I think I can find some second tier grads to do that for me)

you, sir or ma'am, are a twat.

and i'll happily kick your worthless punk ass at the location of your choice.

you can even have choice of weapon, as i'm in such a magnanimous mood.

did i mention that you were a twat?  ah yes, i see that i did.

well, then, you female private part troll, once you're done f-ing your hand, feel free to respond in kind.

Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: AntiGunner on May 05, 2007, 09:28:18 PM
You people can keep dreaming if you want, however, the fact is, going to a T3 is a huge waste of your time. You will come out with tons of debt and no one is going to hire you, because quite frankly if you could only get into a TTT, you aren't very bright. This is probably why you don't realize why attending such a dump is a horrible idea. Enjoy selling your souls to the bank for an ultimatly useless paper, maybe i'll need a paralegal soon (nevermind, I think I can find some second tier grads to do that for me)

you, sir or ma'am, are a twat.

and i'll happily kick your worthless punk ass at the location of your choice.

you can even have choice of weapon, as i'm in such a magnanimous mood.

did i mention that you were a twat?  ah yes, i see that i did.

well, then, you female private part troll, once you're done f-ing your hand, feel free to respond in kind.




How shocking, a mentally deficient prole wants to resort to violence.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 05, 2007, 09:34:27 PM
You people can keep dreaming if you want, however, the fact is, going to a T3 is a huge waste of your time. You will come out with tons of debt and no one is going to hire you, because quite frankly if you could only get into a TTT, you aren't very bright. This is n the end that's probably why you don't realize why attending such a dump is a horrible idea. Enjoy selling your souls to the bank for an ultimatly useless paper, maybe i'll need a paralegal soon (nevermind, I think I can find some second tier grads to do that for me)

you, sir or ma'am, are a twat.

and i'll happily kick your worthless punk ass at the location of your choice.

you can even have choice of weapon, as i'm in such a magnanimous mood.

did i mention that you were a twat?  ah yes, i see that i did.

well, then, you female private part troll, once you're done f-ing your hand, feel free to respond in kind.




How shocking, a mentally deficient prole wants to resort to violence.


no more shocking than a gutless female private part like yourself declining the invitation.

Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: AntiGunner on May 05, 2007, 09:36:04 PM
You people can keep dreaming if you want, however, the fact is, going to a T3 is a huge waste of your time. You will come out with tons of debt and no one is going to hire you, because quite frankly if you could only get into a TTT, you aren't very bright. This is n the end that's probably why you don't realize why attending such a dump is a horrible idea. Enjoy selling your souls to the bank for an ultimatly useless paper, maybe i'll need a paralegal soon (nevermind, I think I can find some second tier grads to do that for me)

you, sir or ma'am, are a twat.

and i'll happily kick your worthless punk ass at the location of your choice.

you can even have choice of weapon, as i'm in such a magnanimous mood.

did i mention that you were a twat?  ah yes, i see that i did.

well, then, you female private part troll, once you're done f-ing your hand, feel free to respond in kind.




How shocking, a mentally deficient prole wants to resort to violence.


no more shocking than a gutless female private part like yourself declining the invitation.




Enjoy poverty. I delight in knowing not only are you already handicaped by inferior intelligence, but as a result of this, you will have the added burden of crippling debt you will never be able to repay, and the loss of several years where you could have at least slogged it out in some *&^% blue collar job and put bologna on the trailer table.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: KillYourself on May 05, 2007, 09:40:04 PM
I think people on this site especially look at rankings and the schools that people choose as another way to judge. Outside of the Ivy Leagues I don't think it matters- but thats my opinion. W&L will do the same for me in New Mexico as Uof Miami will.

I'm sorry, but that is the most ludicrous thing I have EVER heard.  This is why you are going to a TTT.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 05, 2007, 09:40:35 PM
You people can keep dreaming if you want, however, the fact is, going to a T3 is a huge waste of your time. You will come out with tons of debt and no one is going to hire you, because quite frankly if you could only get into a TTT, you aren't very bright. This is n the end that's probably why you don't realize why attending such a dump is a horrible idea. Enjoy selling your souls to the bank for an ultimatly useless paper, maybe i'll need a paralegal soon (nevermind, I think I can find some second tier grads to do that for me)

you, sir or ma'am, are a twat.

and i'll happily kick your worthless punk ass at the location of your choice.

you can even have choice of weapon, as i'm in such a magnanimous mood.

did i mention that you were a twat?  ah yes, i see that i did.

well, then, you female private part troll, once you're done f-ing your hand, feel free to respond in kind.




How shocking, a mentally deficient prole wants to resort to violence.


no more shocking than a gutless female private part like yourself declining the invitation.




Enjoy poverty. I delight in knowing not only are you already handicaped by inferior intelligence, but as a result of this, you will have the added burden of crippling debt you will never be able to repay, and the loss of several years where you could have at least slogged it out in some sh*t blue collar job and put bologna on the trailer table.


i've been a professional longer than you've been alive.

i find it humorous that in your poorly-crafted insult concerning intelligence, you misspell handicapped.

 
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: AntiGunner on May 05, 2007, 09:43:57 PM
A professional what? Paralegal?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: jdhu on May 05, 2007, 09:46:44 PM


Enjoy poverty. I delight in knowing not only are you already handicaped by inferior intelligence, but as a result of this, you will have the added burden of crippling debt you will never be able to repay, and the loss of several years where you could have at least slogged it out in some sh*t blue collar job and put bologna on the trailer table.
[/quote]

I wonder what it is about message boards that brings out the a-hole-ness in people.  I suppose it is the anonymity, but sheesh..

Even if it is true that a tier 3 school is a costly waste of time, would you really "delight" in knowing that this guy will suffer for it? 

I actually agree with the point you are making, but why be so mean-spirited about it?  Granted I didn't read the first few pages, maybe you guys have been going back and forth, but this particular post just seems so unnecessary...

Before you call me stupid haha, I start at a tier 1 this fall.... ;)
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 05, 2007, 09:48:11 PM
how many alts do you have, fucktard?

must be that you have nothing better to do, not having a date on saturday night....
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: AntiGunner on May 05, 2007, 09:49:16 PM
how many alts do you have, fucktard?

must be that you have nothing better to do, not having a date on saturday night....

Right, because it isn't exam week or anything.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: KillYourself on May 05, 2007, 09:50:10 PM
I admit I'm an a-hole, but there is a big problem with LSD (and xoxo obviously).  LSD people are WAY TOO optimistic, whereas xoxo people are WAY TOO pessimistic.  Can a tier 3/4 make sense for some people? Sure, but in many cases it will be a bad career choice.  People on both sites need to find a happy medium because they're both giving terrible advice. 

On LSD, I've seen threads where a person from a tier 3 writes about how he's bottom 1/3 in his class and asks whether he should drop out.  Nearly everyone responds saying no.  What kind of crappy advice is that?  If you are at the bottom of your class in a TTT you need to drop out immediately unless someone is paying for law school and you don't give a sh*t about landing a decent job post-graduation.

On xoxo, I've seen people who mention that they're going to a school like Fordham or GW and people respond that it's a TTT and how they shouldn't have gone to law school.  Absolute BS.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 05, 2007, 09:52:16 PM
ah the shticks are getting old.

goodnight, children
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: jdhu on May 05, 2007, 09:52:55 PM
You guys post fast, must be really worked up by this thread haha...

I actually wasn't referring to you Killyourself, although now I am curious, why be an a-hole haha...not a great personality trait...

I find myself being more condescending or mean online than I am in person and find human nature interesting in this sense...
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 05, 2007, 09:55:57 PM
You guys post fast, must be really worked up by this thread haha...

I actually wasn't referring to you Killyourself, although now I am curious, why be an a-hole haha...not a great personality trait...

I find myself being more condescending or mean online than I am in person and find human nature interesting in this sense...


nah, i'm half drunk and this is more fun than studying crim law  :D

i'm usually much more easy going, but wtf, like i said i'm about half in the bag an i like f-ing with people as much as the next guy  :D

Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: AntiGunner on May 05, 2007, 09:57:49 PM
You guys post fast, must be really worked up by this thread haha...

I actually wasn't referring to you Killyourself, although now I am curious, why be an a-hole haha...not a great personality trait...

I find myself being more condescending or mean online than I am in person and find human nature interesting in this sense...


nah, i'm half drunk and this is more fun than studying crim law  :D

i'm usually much more easy going, but wtf, like i said i'm about half in the bag an i like f-ing with people as much as the next guy  :D




If you're a "professional" as claimed earlier, why are you studying for Crim. aka a 1L
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 05, 2007, 10:01:51 PM
You guys post fast, must be really worked up by this thread haha...

I actually wasn't referring to you Killyourself, although now I am curious, why be an a-hole haha...not a great personality trait...

I find myself being more condescending or mean online than I am in person and find human nature interesting in this sense...


nah, i'm half drunk and this is more fun than studying crim law  :D

i'm usually much more easy going, but wtf, like i said i'm about half in the bag an i like f-ing with people as much as the next guy  :D




If you're a "professional" as claimed earlier, why are you studying for Crim. aka a 1L

ah, i've always wanted to go to law school, and didnt really care where i went.  after we got our youngest kid out of the house we figured that we'd go ahead and go before i got too damn old to enjoy it.  and that's borderline, any damn way.

just f-ing with you, by the way.  i enjoy a good exchange of insults.  i guess that comes from being the youngest in a house with 4 older brothers.   :D
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 05, 2007, 10:28:18 PM
*&^%, nobody wanted to play with AG but me it seems  :D

my bet is that he was a regular poster's alt anyways, that why i screwed with him.  but you never know, he might have been an xoxo troll just looking for some fun
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: younghova on May 06, 2007, 01:58:01 AM
I call for heavier moderation. 

if the XOXO style posts keep coming on LSD, it will turn into Law Student Paradise, which isn't doing very well right now.

if heavier moderation dosn't happen, some other forum will appear more respectable and attract more viewers. 
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: themanwithnoname on May 06, 2007, 07:20:51 AM
I admit I'm an a-hole, but there is a big problem with LSD (and xoxo obviously).  LSD people are WAY TOO optimistic, whereas xoxo people are WAY TOO pessimistic.  Can a tier 3/4 make sense for some people? Sure, but in many cases it will be a bad career choice.  People on both sites need to find a happy medium because they're both giving terrible advice. 

On LSD, I've seen threads where a person from a tier 3 writes about how he's bottom 1/3 in his class and asks whether he should drop out.  Nearly everyone responds saying no.  What kind of crappy advice is that?  If you are at the bottom of your class in a TTT you need to drop out immediately unless someone is paying for law school and you don't give a sh*t about landing a decent job post-graduation.

On xoxo, I've seen people who mention that they're going to a school like Fordham or GW and people respond that it's a TTT and how they shouldn't have gone to law school.  Absolute BS.

This is the best post I have seen in a while. I think the problem is that there are a lot of people here who are in denial about their career options and feel the need to insist to the world that htey are just as good as top students at top schools.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: simonsays on May 06, 2007, 07:55:42 AM
I admit I'm an a-hole, but there is a big problem with LSD (and xoxo obviously).  LSD people are WAY TOO optimistic, whereas xoxo people are WAY TOO pessimistic.  Can a tier 3/4 make sense for some people? Sure, but in many cases it will be a bad career choice.  People on both sites need to find a happy medium because they're both giving terrible advice. 

On LSD, I've seen threads where a person from a tier 3 writes about how he's bottom 1/3 in his class and asks whether he should drop out.  Nearly everyone responds saying no.  What kind of crappy advice is that?  If you are at the bottom of your class in a TTT you need to drop out immediately unless someone is paying for law school and you don't give a sh*t about landing a decent job post-graduation.

On xoxo, I've seen people who mention that they're going to a school like Fordham or GW and people respond that it's a TTT and how they shouldn't have gone to law school.  Absolute BS.

This is the best post I have seen in a while. I think the problem is that there are a lot of people here who are in denial about their career options and feel the need to insist to the world that htey are just as good as top students at top schools.

party true.  people object to the style and never make it to the content.  quite frankly if KillYourself used a gentler approach, the selflessness of his graciousness would be confused with mother theresa.


Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: thenodoubter on May 06, 2007, 07:59:45 AM
I call for heavier moderation. 

if the XOXO style posts keep coming on LSD, it will turn into Law Student Paradise, which isn't doing very well right now.

if heavier moderation dosn't happen, some other forum will appear more respectable and attract more viewers. 

I SECOND THAT
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 06, 2007, 08:15:47 AM
I admit I'm an a-hole, but there is a big problem with LSD (and xoxo obviously).  LSD people are WAY TOO optimistic, whereas xoxo people are WAY TOO pessimistic.  Can a tier 3/4 make sense for some people? Sure, but in many cases it will be a bad career choice.  People on both sites need to find a happy medium because they're both giving terrible advice. 

On LSD, I've seen threads where a person from a tier 3 writes about how he's bottom 1/3 in his class and asks whether he should drop out.  Nearly everyone responds saying no.  What kind of crappy advice is that?  If you are at the bottom of your class in a TTT you need to drop out immediately unless someone is paying for law school and you don't give a sh*t about landing a decent job post-graduation.

On xoxo, I've seen people who mention that they're going to a school like Fordham or GW and people respond that it's a TTT and how they shouldn't have gone to law school.  Absolute BS.

This is the best post I have seen in a while. I think the problem is that there are a lot of people here who are in denial about their career options and feel the need to insist to the world that htey are just as good as top students at top schools.


True....one of my closest friends is in the middle of the class at a law school ranked in the 50's.  She's found jobs, but it's certainly been a struggle.  People I know from T14 who are doing pretty craptacularly in law school are doing fantastically in terms of jobs.  And once you get a great job, you can move laterally pretty easily.  I'm sure people DO make it from TTT, just like some people make it into the NBA and some people can be supermodels.  But statiscally, it's unlikely if you're doing even average from a TTT that finding a job is going to be a good experience.  That's simply the honest truth of it. 
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Nontradloserwhoattendsatier2onstudentloansheis on May 06, 2007, 08:15:54 AM
These xoxo losers are just J E A L O U S

Jealous of my tier 3 degree

Jealous of my $12/hour job

Jealous of my median grades

Jealous of the fact that I'll get nine months off after I graduate, and even more time off if I don't pass the bar.

Jealous of the fact that I cizonned some dumbass student loan company into loaning me $170,000. You wants me to pay $1,700 per month? Shiyet you aints getting that money back. lols.

Jealous of all my connections. I be knowing T-bone, double D, hizlow and G-jock down at the courthouse. That's how I got my sweet $12/hour job.

*Does tier 3 dance*
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 06, 2007, 08:53:53 AM
These xoxo losers are just J E A L O U S

Jealous of my tier 3 degree

Jealous of my $12/hour job

Jealous of my median grades

Jealous of the fact that I'll get nine months off after I graduate, and even more time off if I don't pass the bar.

Jealous of the fact that I cizonned some dumbass student loan company into loaning me $170,000. You wants me to pay $1,700 per month? Shiyet you aints getting that money back. lols.

Jealous of all my connections. I be knowing T-bone, double D, hizlow and G-jock down at the courthouse. That's how I got my sweet $12/hour job.

*Does tier 3 dance*



you're not even fun to play with anymore.  all you know is one game.    :P
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 06, 2007, 09:31:05 AM
There are entirely too many law schools.  Medical schools have controlled the number of accredited schools, and they control the number of seats available.  Therefore the market for doctors is a sellers market.  The legal industry has let the number of schools and seats run wild.  That's why so many people go begging for jobs.  It's obvious that the need to go to an elite school that exists in the legal industry doesn't exist in the medical industry.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: solstice on May 06, 2007, 09:40:45 AM
No trolling here.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. US News rankings are arbitrary and overrated. So called "tiers" mean nothing in the real world, and there are some very excellent Tier 3 law schools out there.

Take the Cecil C Humphrey's law school at the University of Memphis. I live in Memphis, and I can comfortably say that the almost all of the city's most successful lawyers graduated from there. That's not to say that a Memphis graduate will go on to be the next Supreme Court Justice, but who cares? They do very well in their region and state on all levels - and I'm sure could do equally well nationally.

So stop this better tier war and go to a law school that is practical for YOU. Quit taking so much consideration in some journal's rankings and decide for yourself.

/rant

And I don't care who agrees with me!

All of the fighting from both sides aside, the heart of this original post is just not correct.  The tiers do matter.  That they are not determinative does not mean they are irrelevant.

And when you say you're sure Memphis could do equally well nationally, what are you comparing?  To how Memphis does regionally?  To how every other school does nationally?  I would say both are wrong.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 06, 2007, 09:41:09 AM
There are entirely too many law schools.  Medical schools have controlled the number of accredited schools, and they control the number of seats available.  The legal industry has let the number of schools and seats run wild.


why do you care?  no ttt grad will be competing with you for a job anyway, right?

btw, there's a fairly severe doctor shortage, especially in smaller towns and communities, which the ama predicts will get even worse as the baby-boomer physicians reach retirement. 
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 06, 2007, 09:45:55 AM
I care because it's a situation that makes all lawyers look bad.  In other developed countries, the number of lawyers is controlled by extremely difficult bar exams or law school entrance requirements.  For example, in Japan, the passage rate for the bar exam is around 2% (last time I checked which was a while ago).  In Japan, it's a big deal just to be a lawyer.  In our country, we have let too many become lawyers.  That's what has led to so much frivolous legal activity and a degradation of the industry as a whole.  The legal industry should have the discipline that medical schools do.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: queencruella on May 06, 2007, 10:13:17 AM
I care because it's a situation that makes all lawyers look bad.  In other developed countries, the number of lawyers is controlled by extremely difficult bar exams or law school entrance requirements.  For example, in Japan, the passage rate for the bar exam is around 2% (last time I checked which was a while ago).  In Japan, it's a big deal just to be a lawyer.  In our country, we have let too many become lawyers.  That's what has led to so much frivolous legal activity and a degradation of the industry as a whole.  The legal industry should have the discipline that medical schools do.

I totally disagree with your reasoning on litigation. Japan is a shame, group-based society with a middle school motto that nails who stick up need to be hammered down. It's simply not accepted over there to cause an uproar and sue when you have problems. We are a guilt, individual-based society that encourages people to express themselves and be different.

I agree with Matthies that the problem is the lack of qualifications to get into law school in the first place. Instead of focusing on just LSAT/GPA, we should have interviews and other requirements to make sure that people are going into law school for the right reasons, not just because they think it's an easy path to fast cash. They isn't to make it harder for people to pass the bar, but to make it harder to get into law school in the first place.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 06, 2007, 10:15:03 AM
I care because it's a situation that makes all lawyers look bad.  In other developed countries, the number of lawyers is controlled by extremely difficult bar exams or law school entrance requirements.  For example, in Japan, the passage rate for the bar exam is around 2% (last time I checked which was a while ago).  In Japan, it's a big deal just to be a lawyer.  In our country, we have let too many become lawyers.  That's what has led to so much frivolous legal activity and a degradation of the industry as a whole.  The legal industry should have the discipline that medical schools do.


you aren't arguing that "frivolous legal activity" only comes from lawyers who attended lower-ranked schools are you? bad lawyers, just like bad doctors, are what degrades the profession, regardless of where they graduated.  for example, isn't that judge who is facing disbarment over the 65-million pair of pants suit a georgetown grad?

i suspect that you might argue, however, that only people who can attend schools like michigan, for example, should have the opportunity to be lawyers.  i think this is foolish elitism in the extreme, but i don't expect to change your mind and do not have the attention span to try.

a free-market economy tends to weed out lesser practitioners in any field.

as i mentioned previously, the ama is now stating that their limitation has been a mistake, and it will result in a nationwide shortage of health care providers.

Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Sweetpri on May 06, 2007, 10:16:58 AM
I would be interested to see statistics on the total number of people who apply to go to law school every year vs. the number of people who actually get in anywhere.  I agree that it's pretty easy to get into law school but looking the application stats according to LSAC, John Marshall in Chicago got 3,731 applications and only admitted 1,396.  This is a tier 4 that I thought had a much much higher acceptance rate.  
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: queencruella on May 06, 2007, 10:18:29 AM
I would be interested to see statistics on the total number of people who apply to go to law school every year vs. the number of people who actually get in anywhere.  I agree that it's pretty easy to get into law school but looking the application stats according to LSAC, John Marshall in Chicago got 3,731 applications and only admitted 1,396.  This is a tier 4 that I thought had a much much higher acceptance rate. 

It's on the LSAC volume summary.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 06, 2007, 10:19:11 AM
I would be interested to see statistics on the total number of people who apply to go to law school every year vs. the number of people who actually get in anywhere.  I agree that it's pretty easy to get into law school but looking the application stats according to LSAC, John Marshall in Chicago got 3,731 applications and only admitted 1,396.  This is a tier 4 that I thought had a much much higher acceptance rate. 

according to lsac, its around 50% nationwide, i believe.  my school accepted less than 10% to the 2009 class
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: simonsays on May 06, 2007, 10:27:54 AM
I care because it's a situation that makes all lawyers look bad.  In other developed countries, the number of lawyers is controlled by extremely difficult bar exams or law school entrance requirements.  For example, in Japan, the passage rate for the bar exam is around 2% (last time I checked which was a while ago).  In Japan, it's a big deal just to be a lawyer.  In our country, we have let too many become lawyers.  That's what has led to so much frivolous legal activity and a degradation of the industry as a whole.  The legal industry should have the discipline that medical schools do.

not a good comparison.  people don't sue as often in japan.  I'm really curious what the other 98% who fail the bar do.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 06, 2007, 10:29:13 AM
I care because it's a situation that makes all lawyers look bad.  In other developed countries, the number of lawyers is controlled by extremely difficult bar exams or law school entrance requirements.  For example, in Japan, the passage rate for the bar exam is around 2% (last time I checked which was a while ago).  In Japan, it's a big deal just to be a lawyer.  In our country, we have let too many become lawyers.  That's what has led to so much frivolous legal activity and a degradation of the industry as a whole.  The legal industry should have the discipline that medical schools do.

not a good comparison.  people don't sue as often in japan.  I'm really curious what the other 98% who fail the bar do.


seppuku.  they have disgraced family honor, and must expatiate their shame
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: queencruella on May 06, 2007, 10:39:05 AM
I care because it's a situation that makes all lawyers look bad.  In other developed countries, the number of lawyers is controlled by extremely difficult bar exams or law school entrance requirements.  For example, in Japan, the passage rate for the bar exam is around 2% (last time I checked which was a while ago).  In Japan, it's a big deal just to be a lawyer.  In our country, we have let too many become lawyers.  That's what has led to so much frivolous legal activity and a degradation of the industry as a whole.  The legal industry should have the discipline that medical schools do.

not a good comparison.  people don't sue as often in japan.  I'm really curious what the other 98% who fail the bar do.

From what I've heard from the visiting Japanese scholars at my school now, it's up to 15% in preparation for the new civil system they're implementing. Still, most people are in public universities where the tuition isn't all that high and I am sure that they just continue to retake year after year. This is the same in most professional fields in Japan. I worked in a school and it's the same stats for some subjects- usually 2-15% pass each year and people retake until they pass.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: queencruella on May 06, 2007, 11:11:38 AM
As has been mentioned in previos posts, the LSAT is a predictor of nothing other than who is/isn't good at taking an LSAT.  GPAs aren't as random, just too hard to compare across the boards.  In an ideal world the application system would be far more involved and the entrance exam might mirror some watered down version of 1L. 

Reasons why it will never change?  LSAT and prep courses/prep materials are big business as is every facet of the application process.  The people who can make changes to the system don't want to, it would cost them a lot of easy money.  What is sad, and not often delicately put on these message boards... some of the "too young to know any better crowd" don't realize how unpleasant 15 years of staggering debt will ultimately be from programs that just don't offer decent initial job prospects.  As an old guy (by the standards of this board) I understand what I signed up for and what the costs will be.  I've had a career, have a house, cars etc.  The money I blow on my education isn't a huge concern as I have no BIGLAW aspirations.

I will say that as a former T4 1L student who knows many others, it is just unconscionable how much lying goes on at the lower levels about job prospects/attrition/employment stats etc.  What's worse is that a great majority of the just out of college crowd buy in to it totally.  What had me fed up was that a profession that touts ethics/community responsibility etc., allows its educational institutions to act like used car salesman to shuck their wares with doctored statistics.

I've just seen too many bright kids assume that the negative part of lower ranked school attendance won't apply to them... Sure there are the annoying, "go T-14 or go home" posts, but I for one think the "I'm going to Cooley and gonna be a Supreme Ct. Justice no matter what anyone says" posts are equally unintelligent.  I'm done ranting, but so many of you 0Ls have no idea what you are doing to your futures when you sign those loan papers at some of these schools, many of you will do well no matter what program you attend, but a significantly large population are committing financial suicide for something that will give very little financial return for your investment.

Most of the information on T4 schools is readily available if you know how to look for it. Lots of people who go to T4 schools are also older people who need more flexible part-time programs or are simply unable to move out of their local areas. People who are lured in by false promises just didn't do their research beforehand.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: queencruella on May 06, 2007, 11:27:05 AM
As has been mentioned in previos posts, the LSAT is a predictor of nothing other than who is/isn't good at taking an LSAT.  GPAs aren't as random, just too hard to compare across the boards.  In an ideal world the application system would be far more involved and the entrance exam might mirror some watered down version of 1L. 

Reasons why it will never change?  LSAT and prep courses/prep materials are big business as is every facet of the application process.  The people who can make changes to the system don't want to, it would cost them a lot of easy money.  What is sad, and not often delicately put on these message boards... some of the "too young to know any better crowd" don't realize how unpleasant 15 years of staggering debt will ultimately be from programs that just don't offer decent initial job prospects.  As an old guy (by the standards of this board) I understand what I signed up for and what the costs will be.  I've had a career, have a house, cars etc.  The money I blow on my education isn't a huge concern as I have no BIGLAW aspirations.

I will say that as a former T4 1L student who knows many others, it is just unconscionable how much lying goes on at the lower levels about job prospects/attrition/employment stats etc.  What's worse is that a great majority of the just out of college crowd buy in to it totally.  What had me fed up was that a profession that touts ethics/community responsibility etc., allows its educational institutions to act like used car salesman to shuck their wares with doctored statistics.

I've just seen too many bright kids assume that the negative part of lower ranked school attendance won't apply to them... Sure there are the annoying, "go T-14 or go home" posts, but I for one think the "I'm going to Cooley and gonna be a Supreme Ct. Justice no matter what anyone says" posts are equally unintelligent.  I'm done ranting, but so many of you 0Ls have no idea what you are doing to your futures when you sign those loan papers at some of these schools, many of you will do well no matter what program you attend, but a significantly large population are committing financial suicide for something that will give very little financial return for your investment.

Most of the information on T4 schools is readily available if you know how to look for it. Lots of people who go to T4 schools are also older people who need more flexible part-time programs or are simply unable to move out of their local areas. People who are lured in by false promises just didn't do their research beforehand.

I'm talking about giving tours to prospective students, and telling them the school has national placement...yeah, one alum in each state.  Sure you could go to NALP, but how many 22 year olds are gonna doubt or do the research?  Also, schools telling potential students that they aren't sure how many students retain their scholarships because they don't maintain those statistics?  I can tell you for a fact that my former school has nearly a 25% attrition rate and they don't tell potential students that it is due to flunk outs and transfers to greener pastures.  Their explanation is pregnancies, leaves of absence, a few students decide school isn't for them, and "of course there are transfers, but they don't transfer for professional reasons, they want to be closer to home etc."
My personal favorite is the, "Yeah, we are T4, but statistic X was reported incorrectly TO USNWR, otherwise we'd be Tier 3 or higher.  ITS LYING.

22-year-olds aren't complete dolts. They should learn how to research by the time they become seniors in college. College should teach some critical thinking skills. Most of my friends researched the schools before deciding where to go, regardless of age. People are lured in deserve it. Just like people who think that career services is going to find them a job.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Brito on May 06, 2007, 11:27:30 AM
Why in this whole thread about whether or not working hard pays off, has nobody mentioned that it is precisely hard work that gets people into t-14 schools?   

I don't think so.  I'm no slacker by any means, but my numbers had more to do with 1) natural test-taking abilities (not necessarily correlated to real intellect) and 2) ability to churn out decent enough English papers and memorize just enough historical info to squeeze by with an A--and I cut it close many times.  I expect to work hard in law school, but I don't think that I have worked harder in the past than plenty of people, including some of my friends, with amazing study habits who are going to lower-ranked schools because they happened to miss more questions on the LSAT than I did. 
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 06, 2007, 11:28:17 AM
Comparing the US to Japan is just wrong in all ways. The reason why the US has, and always has had loads of lawyers is because of the domination of written contracts, regulations, etc etc which requires large number of professionals to process the paperwork. Japan has traditionally been an honor-society where giving someone your word is enough, and to some extent it is still like this. The countries are so fundamentally different its really not a good comparison.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Gopherit on May 06, 2007, 11:51:09 AM
Comparing the US to Japan is just wrong in all ways. The reason why the US has, and always has had loads of lawyers is because of the domination of written contracts, regulations, etc etc which requires large number of professionals to process the paperwork. Japan has traditionally been an honor-society where giving someone your word is enough, and to some extent it is still like this. The countries are so fundamentally different its really not a good comparison.

(http://www.pbfcomics.com/archive/0PBF61009BC-Weeaboo.jpg)
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 06, 2007, 12:45:12 PM
Well, forget the Japan example... we have the highest number of lawyers per capita IN THE WORLD.  I know that there's the argument that different countries use different people to do work lawyers do here in the US.  Nevertheless, there's still a @#$# load of lawyers here.  Nobody honestly thinks that contributes to the sense that there is too much frivolous legal activity going on?  I'm not saying it all comes from TTT lawyers, but rather from the system allowing too many people to be lawyers.  There are two possibilities:  either we have that much more useful legal work to do than anywhere else on the planet or there is a considerable amount of useless legal activity going on.  Well of course there are also the contributing possibilities that there aren't enough lawyers in other contries or that there are a lot of unemployed lawyers running around.

I can see how people might get upset and say my argument is elitist.  But I guess I will say that not everybody who wants to be a lawyer should be able to be one.  I know that people might think that there is a high rejection rate already....but it's not enough to keep the balance.  Or let me put it this way.... what would the significant downside be to there being half the number of law schools that exist already? 
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: plex on May 06, 2007, 01:04:08 PM
One potential scenario for a simple halving of law schools: Law school prices sky rocket (even higher) since there is drastically less competition and twice the applicant pool to choose. As a "side effect", no one is able able to become a public defender anymore, because of their 2000-3000/month loan payments. The government then has to step in, and dump billions of taxpayer dollars into subsidizing, even more so than now, so that more can become public defenders. Even with these measures though, the net result would be less of the badly needed public defenders, another drain on taxpayer dollars and smiling board members at the remaining law schools.

Slippery slope argument...

Side note: What is covered in IP law in other countries usually doesn't require a JD. So, I, and many others who go into IP law, wouldn't even need to waste our money if it weren't for the unusual additional requirement of a JD, on top of already needing to take an additional bar exam and a difficult undergrad.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 06, 2007, 01:09:53 PM
One potential scenario for a simple halving of law schools: Law school prices sky rocket (even higher) since there is drastically less competition and twice the applicant pool to choose. As a "side effect", no one is able able to become a public defender anymore, because of their 2000-3000/month loan payments. The government then has to step in, and dump billions of taxpayer dollars into subsidizing, even more so than now, so that more can become public defenders. Even with these measures though, the net result would be less of the badly needed public defenders, another drain on taxpayer dollars and smiling board members at the remaining law schools.

Slippery slope argument...

Side note: What is covered in IP law in other countries usually doesn't require a JD. So, I, and many others who go into IP law, wouldn't even need to waste our money if it weren't for the unusual additional requirement of a JD, on top of already needing to take an additional bar exam and a difficult undergrad.


I guess you don't think there are too many lawyers running around.  I bet you're in the minority.  I know it's unfair for me (who wants to be a lawyer) to say that there are too many lawyers.... but most lawyers I've talked to say there are too many lawyers too!
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 06, 2007, 01:27:13 PM
I'd argue that the fact that lawyers do find work (although at times quite bad work) means there isn't really too many lawyers in it self, rather that too many of the lawyers wants to break into the same business field. Which of course is a result of that field paying better than other alternatives. If the lawyer profession in it self was overcrowded, billing prices would have dropped from $500 an hour :)
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: KillYourself on May 06, 2007, 01:29:58 PM
Clearly we have too many schools.  I have no idea why the ABA continues to accredit.  Enough is enough. 

How do we know there's a massive over saturation of lawyers?  Because Tier 3 and 4 lawyers can't all find jobs.  Simple as that. Not to mention the extremely low salary given to some attorneys...   supply v. demand.

Lastly, I agree it might be a little unfair for some of us going to top schools to say there's an over abundance of lawyers, but it's pretty obvious -- even to lay people who know nothing about law school.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: younghova on May 06, 2007, 11:44:10 PM
god, I know I've already posted this on the thread, but this forum needs heavier moderation

criticism of lower ranked law schools isn't bad in itself.  but its pretty obvious who the trolls are (those with posting numbers in between 1-50 and screen names such as "killyourself".)

xoxo style posters will repel many potential legitimate posters.  And some other website will benefit. 

Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: KillYourself on May 07, 2007, 01:10:48 AM
i'm guessing you go to a TTT because i clearly have almost 160 posts.  idiot
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 07, 2007, 06:14:03 AM
ya know the internet is a funny place.  because you can't see the people with whom you are conversing, their posts seem to become somehow more authoritative than they really are.

for example, i suspect that most of the posters who tell us that there is no future or no jobs for us t3 grads are what -- 23/24 years old?  and that many of them have gone to school on daddy's nickel and have never held a job outside of maybe slinging burgers or stocking shelves?

what credentials do they possess that makes them an authority on anything?  especially to tell us non-trads about life, the workforce, the future, economics, or anything else for that matter?

that 5 years ago, when i was sitting on the board of a multi-national nfp organization, many of them had no greater concern than getting in their girlfriend's pants after the prom.

that 10 years ago, when i was finishing up my first professional degree, many of them couldn't even legally drive.

that 20 years ago, when i held a command as a military officer, many of them weren't even in pre-school.

now there are many of you younger guys and gals on this board that are pretty damn smart.  a few of you are even brilliant.   

i will be your colleague, hell, i might even end up working for you.

that's fine.  you'll earn my respect and loyalty through your competence, by being a damn good attorney.  there may be things i can learn from you about the lawyering profession, once we get into practice.

that's fine too.

but you'll have to earn those credentials.  you don't have them now.

so don't try to tell me anything about how my life is going to be, or try to pass yourself off and as expert on anything.  because you're not.



edit:  this is not a blanket condemnation of every 20-something on the board -- only the trolls, who know who they are.


Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 07, 2007, 06:18:11 AM
a few of you are even brilliant.   

Thanks  ;D
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: strongmace on May 07, 2007, 06:18:44 AM
getting in their girlfriend's pants after the prom.

I'm pretty expert at that Rev. :)

Seriously, word.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: themanwithnoname on May 07, 2007, 07:01:28 AM
First of all, most people at top law schools have had some work experience, often as legal assistance, in finance, or in politics/government. Second, its not the t14 or whatever you want to call it grads who started this whole idea of no jobs for t3/t4. JDJive was dedicated to telling people how impossible it is to get a job rom anything but a t1. You have that loyola 2l guy whining about his inability to find a job... so stop pointing to us.

ya know the internet is a funny place.  because you can't see the people with whom you are conversing, their posts seem to become somehow more authoritative than they really are.

for example, i suspect that most of the posters who tell us that there is no future or no jobs for us t3 grads are what -- 23/24 years old?  and that many of them have gone to school on daddy's nickel and have never held a job outside of maybe slinging burgers or stocking shelves?

what credentials do they possess that makes them an authority on anything?  especially to tell us non-trads about life, the workforce, the future, economics, or anything else for that matter?

that 5 years ago, when i was sitting on the board of a multi-national nfp organization, many of them had no greater concern than getting in their girlfriend's pants after the prom.

that 10 years ago, when i was finishing up my first professional degree, many of them couldn't even legally drive.

that 20 years ago, when i held a command as a military officer, many of them weren't even in pre-school.

now there are many of you younger guys and gals on this board that are pretty damn smart.  a few of you are even brilliant.   

i will be your colleague, hell, i might even end up working for you.

that's fine.  you'll earn my respect and loyalty through your competence, by being a damn good attorney.  there may be things i can learn from you about the lawyering profession, once we get into practice.

that's fine too.

but you'll have to earn those credentials.  you don't have them now.

so don't try to tell me anything about how my life is going to be, or try to pass yourself off and as expert on anything.  because you're not.



edit:  this is not a blanket condemnation of every 20-something on the board -- only the trolls, who know who they are.



Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Swibbles on May 07, 2007, 07:18:56 AM
edit:  this is not a blanket condemnation of every 20-something on the board -- only the trolls, who know who they are.

This, on the other hand, IS a blanket condemnation of every 20-something on the board: you all suck.  Every last one of you.  ESPECIALLY the 27-year-olds.

Also, there's no such thing as the T14.  That's just a myth.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Butters Stotch on May 07, 2007, 07:47:00 AM
One potential scenario for a simple halving of law schools: Law school prices sky rocket (even higher) since there is drastically less competition and twice the applicant pool to choose. As a "side effect", no one is able able to become a public defender anymore, because of their 2000-3000/month loan payments. The government then has to step in, and dump billions of taxpayer dollars into subsidizing, even more so than now, so that more can become public defenders. Even with these measures though, the net result would be less of the badly needed public defenders, another drain on taxpayer dollars and smiling board members at the remaining law schools.

Slippery slope argument...

Side note: What is covered in IP law in other countries usually doesn't require a JD. So, I, and many others who go into IP law, wouldn't even need to waste our money if it weren't for the unusual additional requirement of a JD, on top of already needing to take an additional bar exam and a difficult undergrad.


I guess you don't think there are too many lawyers running around.  I bet you're in the minority.  I know it's unfair for me (who wants to be a lawyer) to say that there are too many lawyers.... but most lawyers I've talked to say there are too many lawyers too!

Obviously, neither do you.  Either that, or you have no conscience of which to speak.  It isn't "unfair" of an aspiring attorney to bemoan a perceived over-abundance of attorneys...it is downright hypocritical. 

As for the rest of you myopic trolls:  You need the "TTT" schools a helluva lot more than you realize.  How would you ever manage to impress people at parties with your "top law school" credentials absent the existence of those bottom-feeder schools? 
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Swibbles on May 07, 2007, 07:58:32 AM
As for the rest of you myopic trolls:  You need the "TTT" schools a helluva lot more than you realize.  How would you ever manage to impress people at parties with your "top law school" credentials absent the existence of those bottom-feeder schools? 

Actually, I was thinking more in terms of "when I need a real estate (or whathaveyou) lawyer to buy a house (or some other normal function etc. etc.) I don't want to be competing with Skadden to get that person.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Butters Stotch on May 07, 2007, 08:01:24 AM
As for the rest of you myopic trolls:  You need the "TTT" schools a helluva lot more than you realize.  How would you ever manage to impress people at parties with your "top law school" credentials absent the existence of those bottom-feeder schools? 

Actually, I was thinking more in terms of "when I need a real estate (or whathaveyou) lawyer to buy a house (or some other normal function etc. etc.) I don't want to be competing with Skadden to get that person.

This is also a valid point, one which will no doubt be summarily lost on our lovable trolls who think that there is no law other than BIG law.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 07, 2007, 08:02:50 AM
I suppose the point is that lawyers as a whole would then be held in greater regard.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Butters Stotch on May 07, 2007, 08:04:53 AM
I suppose the point is that lawyers as a whole would then be held in greater regard.

I would counter that the problem with the way the legal profession, in general, and lawyers, in particular, are "regarded" is more an issue of quality rather than quantity.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Swibbles on May 07, 2007, 08:06:59 AM
I suppose the point is that lawyers as a whole would then be held in greater regard.

in the same vein, i suggest that we have the ABA ban TV ads.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 07, 2007, 08:07:44 AM
exactly...if the number of seats were controlled, the quality could also be better managed.  Looking at it macroscopically.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Swibbles on May 07, 2007, 08:09:13 AM
exactly...if the number of seats were controlled, the quality could also be better managed.  Looking at it macroscopically.

are there good ways of implementing such controls? 
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: themanwithnoname on May 07, 2007, 08:09:33 AM
I suppose the point is that lawyers as a whole would then be held in greater regard.

You know what, I say more lawyers. First of all, I think it is absolutely fine if there is a surplus of lawyers. Brings down the cost of legal services, makes sure the less affluent can get them. If the price of legal services rose, legal aid would be the first thing to suffer. Also, lets be honest, where would corporate lawyers be without desperately litigious plaintiff's lawyers? I have no problem with somebody deciding to go to a T4, doesn't affect me one bit. Might be an economic choice for them, and if this is somebody I know i might point out how tough it is for T4 grads, but I don't feel the need for the gov't or the bar ass'n to regulate it.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: queencruella on May 07, 2007, 08:09:56 AM
exactly...if the number of seats were controlled, the quality could also be better managed.  Looking at it macroscopically.

Or they could use a more holistic admissions process instead of focusing solely on LSAT/GPA. There are plenty of ways to help make lawyers have better respect, but limiting the number is not necessarily the best way to do it. Some states are actually still adding law schools, and for a state to do that, there is probably some reason.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: themanwithnoname on May 07, 2007, 08:10:14 AM
I suppose the point is that lawyers as a whole would then be held in greater regard.

in the same vein, i suggest that we have the ABA ban TV ads.

and somebody has not taken first amendment law.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Butters Stotch on May 07, 2007, 08:10:26 AM
exactly...if the number of seats were controlled, the quality could also be better managed.  Looking at it macroscopically.


If you follow your line of reasoning to its logical conclusion, you will be left with the notion that "population control" is the answer to pretty much all of society's ills. 

Besides, I firmly believe that the antipathy directed toward the legal profession a product more of politics and ignorance than anything else, the perceived "glut" of lawyers included.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: themanwithnoname on May 07, 2007, 08:11:53 AM
I really don't think we should be making decisions about the legal profession based on how the public perceives lawyers. The job of the Bar is to uphold the public interest, not the interest of lawyers
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Swibbles on May 07, 2007, 08:12:17 AM
exactly...if the number of seats were controlled, the quality could also be better managed.  Looking at it macroscopically.

Or they could use a more holistic admissions process instead of focusing solely on LSAT/GPA. There are plenty of ways to help make lawyers have better respect, but limiting the number is not necessarily the best way to do it. Some states are actually still adding law schools, and for a state to do that, there is probably some reason.

C&F prior to admission?

I suppose the point is that lawyers as a whole would then be held in greater regard.

in the same vein, i suggest that we have the ABA ban TV ads.

and somebody has not taken first amendment law.

well of course not.  since when was that a 1L class?

I really don't think we should be making decisions about the legal profession based on how the public perceives lawyers. The job of the Bar is to uphold the public interest, not the interest of lawyers

wait, seriously?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: queencruella on May 07, 2007, 08:16:06 AM
I think it would be more about finding people who are going into law school for the right reasons and trying to weed out the people who just want to go into it to make the most money possible or because they don't know what else to do with their lives. If it were more like med school where there were minimum qualifications for each school to get to an interview and people got picked from the interviews, I think there would be less of a problem.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Butters Stotch on May 07, 2007, 08:17:27 AM
I think it would be more about finding people who are going into law school for the right reasons and trying to weed out the people who just want to go into it to make the most money possible or because they don't know what else to do with their lives. If it were more like med school where there were minimum qualifications for each school to get to an interview and people got picked from the interviews, I think there would be less of a problem.

You just eliminated half the T14 grads.   :P
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Swibbles on May 07, 2007, 08:18:05 AM
I think it would be more about finding people who are going into law school for the right reasons and trying to weed out the people who just want to go into it to make the most money possible or because they don't know what else to do with their lives. If it were more like med school where there were minimum qualifications for each school to get to an interview and people got picked from the interviews, I think there would be less of a problem.

well what are the right reasons?  ;)

You just eliminated half the T14 grads.   :P

stop stereotyping.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 07, 2007, 08:18:18 AM
I suppose it would be great to multiply the number of ambulance chasers and 1-800 number lawyers.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Butters Stotch on May 07, 2007, 08:19:27 AM
You just eliminated half the T14 grads.   :P

stop stereotyping.

Touche.  [face_applause]
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Butters Stotch on May 07, 2007, 08:22:48 AM
I suppose it would be great to multiply the number of ambulance chasers and 1-800 number lawyers.

 :D Love the straw guy!

As to your sentiment, perhaps we could strive to eliminate the sort of elitist attitudes (like the ones presenting herein) that "force" people to become ambulance chasers in order to pay off their student loans.   ;)
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Swibbles on May 07, 2007, 08:24:22 AM
As to your sentiment, perhaps we could strive to eliminate the sort of elitist attitudes (like the ones presenting herein) that "force" people to become ambulance chasers in order to pay off their student loans.   ;)

wait, elitist attitudes force people to become ambulance chasers to...  EH?

please elaborate.

also, there's good elitism, and then there's bad elitism.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: queencruella on May 07, 2007, 08:25:02 AM
I suppose it would be great to multiply the number of ambulance chasers and 1-800 number lawyers.

 :D Love the straw guy!

As to your sentiment, perhaps we could strive to eliminate the sort of elitist attitudes (like the ones presenting herein) that "force" people to become ambulance chasers in order to pay off their student loans.   ;)

No one's forced to do anything to pay off student loans. Most normal people do not need to live off of $100K+ a year- they make much less. The loans are a lot, but if people actually worked beforehand and realized that they didn't need to live off of that much, they'd be better off.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Butters Stotch on May 07, 2007, 08:26:28 AM
As to your sentiment, perhaps we could strive to eliminate the sort of elitist attitudes (like the ones presenting herein) that "force" people to become ambulance chasers in order to pay off their student loans.   ;)

wait, elitist attitudes force people to become ambulance chasers to...  EH?

please elaborate.


also, there's good elitism, and then there's bad elitism.

Tongue-in-cheek, not intended to be taken seriously.  I was following up one straw-man with another.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Swibbles on May 07, 2007, 08:26:54 AM
As to your sentiment, perhaps we could strive to eliminate the sort of elitist attitudes (like the ones presenting herein) that "force" people to become ambulance chasers in order to pay off their student loans.   ;)

wait, elitist attitudes force people to become ambulance chasers to...  EH?

please elaborate.


also, there's good elitism, and then there's bad elitism.

Tongue-in-cheek, not intended to be taken seriously.  I was following up one straw-man with another.

i see.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Nontradloserwhoattendsatier2onstudentloansheis on May 07, 2007, 08:26:58 AM
Tier 2 students can get any jobs they want. I networked my way into a sweet $12/hour gig this summer. When I graduate I'm going to upgrade to a biglaw job. After I rake in the cash at biglaw for 10 years I'm going to retire into a professorship position.

If a tier 2 student is ever rejected because of their school, which never happens, it's solely because of the elitism created by people who brag about their fancy top 14 schools.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Swibbles on May 07, 2007, 08:27:23 AM
oh good.  entertainment has arrived.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Butters Stotch on May 07, 2007, 08:32:47 AM
also, there's good elitism, and then there's bad elitism.

I missed this one before.

What you say may be entirely true.  However, this entire conversation boils down to elitism, and it is this sort of self-serving elitism that leads to the attitudes on display here.  It cuts across many sections of society too, not just the legal profession.  The sad part about it is that, in the end, clients wind up suffering as a result.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 07, 2007, 08:34:02 AM
In the current environment, I really do wish that people from lower ranked schools were looked at more closely by more firms.  I know from my friends that the heartbreaking truth is that this is not the case.  

THAT is the reason why I wish that there were fewer law schools and fewer seats.  So that people who do make it in have better prospects.  Trust me, it's not for myself.  I know that IF I work hard and don't @#$# up, my prospects should be fine.  But I know other law students in lower ranked who are suffering from the overabundance of law students.  I think they are great, smart people.... but there are just too many of them seeking out too few economically viable (considering loans etc) jobs.

I think people shouldn't look at the prospect of fewer lawyers as a threat to them.  I'm not saying get rid of all but T14 schools.  There are 170+ ABA accredited schools.

I'm also not trying to insult anybody.  I'm trying to address the statement "there's nothing wrong with TTT schools".  I don't think there's anything wrong with the students who go there (no more so than for higher ranked schools)... but with the schools themselves...yes there is a problem there.  A big part of the problem is the false dream promised by these schools.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Swibbles on May 07, 2007, 08:35:00 AM
also, there's good elitism, and then there's bad elitism.

I missed this one before.

What you say may be entirely true.  However, this entire conversation boils down to elitism, and it is this sort of self-serving elitism that leads to the attitudes on display here.  It cuts across many sections of society too, not just the legal profession.  The sad part about it is that, in the end, clients wind up suffering as a result.

which attitudes are those again?

In the current environment, I really do wish that people from lower ranked schools were looked at more closely by more firms.  I know from my friends that the heartbreaking truth is that this is not the case.  

THAT is the reason why I wish that there were fewer law schools and fewer seats.  So that people who do make it in have better prospects.  Trust me, it's not for myself.  I know that IF I work hard and don't @#$# up, my prospects should be fine.  But I know other law students in lower ranked who are suffering from the overabundance of law students.  I think they are great, smart people.... but there are just too many of them seeking out too few economically viable (considering loans etc) jobs.

I think people shouldn't look at the prospect of fewer lawyers as a threat to them.  I'm not saying get rid of all but T14 schools.  There are 170+ ABA accredited schools.

I'm also not trying to insult anybody.  I'm trying to address the statement "there's nothing wrong with TTT schools".  I don't think there's anything wrong with the students who go there (no more so than for higher ranked schools)... but with the schools themselves...yes there is a problem there.  A big part of the problem is the false dream promised by these schools.

can people stop using the term T14 please?  i mean really, T14 is just a myth propogated by georgetown trolls. 
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: themanwithnoname on May 07, 2007, 08:36:38 AM
Tier 2 students can get any jobs they want. I networked my way into a sweet $12/hour gig this summer. When I graduate I'm going to upgrade to a biglaw job. After I rake in the cash at biglaw for 10 years I'm going to retire into a professorship position.

If a tier 2 student is ever rejected because of their school, which never happens, it's solely because of the elitism created by people who brag about their fancy top 14 schools.

let me translate this

"blah blah blah... god I hope my employer doesn't figure out that I posted all those obscene comments on the autoadmit site. Blah blah blah, oh my god i can't go a day without on a web forum. Without that, my below median grades at a t14, and my job at that one v100 firm that took pity on me at oci IM NOTHING."
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: themanwithnoname on May 07, 2007, 08:38:41 AM
can people stop using the term T14 please?  i mean really, T14 is just a myth propogated by georgetown trolls. 

fine, tell us what term to use so we can figure out which school you go to.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Butters Stotch on May 07, 2007, 08:44:55 AM
In the current environment, I really do wish that people from lower ranked schools were looked at more closely by more firms.  I know from my friends that the heartbreaking truth is that this is not the case. 

THAT is the reason why I wish that there were fewer law schools and fewer seats.  So that people who do make it in have better prospects.  Trust me, it's not for myself.  I know that IF I work hard and don't @#$# up, my prospects should be fine.  But I know other law students in lower ranked who are suffering from the overabundance of law students.  I think they are great, smart people.... but there are just too many of them seeking out too few economically viable (considering loans etc) jobs.

I think people shouldn't look at the prospect of fewer lawyers as a threat to them.  I'm not saying get rid of all but T14 schools.  There are 170+ ABA accredited schools.

I'm also not trying to insult anybody.  I'm trying to address the statement "there's nothing wrong with TTT schools".  I don't think there's anything wrong with the students who go there (no more so than for higher ranked schools)... but with the schools themselves...yes there is a problem there.  A big part of the problem is the false dream promised by these schools.

I get the sentiment you are trying to express, and I agree with much of your concern. 

I simply disagree with your (apparent) assertion that the proper way to address these concerns is by offering fewer opportunities to those who would otherwise not be able to pursue their chosen career path (regardless of whether or not their 'reasons' for choosing that career path appear sound to you and me).
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Butters Stotch on May 07, 2007, 08:49:12 AM
also, there's good elitism, and then there's bad elitism.

I missed this one before.

What you say may be entirely true.  However, this entire conversation boils down to elitism, and it is this sort of self-serving elitism that leads to the attitudes on display here.  It cuts across many sections of society too, not just the legal profession.  The sad part about it is that, in the end, clients wind up suffering as a result.

which attitudes are those again?

The attitudes that continually propagate the myth that the only good legal education (and, by definition, the only good law student/lawyer) comes from one of the top schools, and the rest are *&^%. 
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 07, 2007, 08:53:24 AM
Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm not sure that everyone SHOULD be able to be a lawyer just because they want to.  I want to play in the NBA, but if they did let me in, the quality of the game would probably plummet.  I know it's not the best analogy, but I guess the bottom line is that I feel that the legal industry should make a greater effort to up the quality.  Not just the quality of lawyers, but the quality of opportunities available to lawyers.

Let's say there was only T1-T3.  Wouldn't it increase the prospects of those in the T3?  And those who couldn't get in the first time around could work hard and reapply.  In some countries (I know people hate it when I start this kind of thinking), people try for years to get admitted to be a lawyer.  Consequentially, being a lawyer at all is a big deal.  

Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 07, 2007, 08:55:58 AM
One of the most depressing things I ever encountered was a night manager at a Days Inn who went to a T4 and couldn't get a job.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: queencruella on May 07, 2007, 08:58:35 AM
Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm not sure that everyone SHOULD be able to be a lawyer just because they want to.  I want to play in the NBA, but if they did let me in, the quality of the game would probably plummet.  I know it's not the best analogy, but I guess the bottom line is that I feel that the legal industry should make a greater effort to up the quality.  Not just the quality of lawyers, but the quality of opportunities available to lawyers.

Let's say there was only T1-T3.  Wouldn't it increase the prospects of those in the T3?  And those who couldn't get in the first time around could work hard and reapply.  In some countries (I know people hate it when I start this kind of thinking), people try for years to get admitted to be a lawyer.  Consequentially, being a lawyer at all is a big deal. 



But some Tier 4's have fine placement. It depends on the market. You can be in a tier 3 in a saturated market and have a hard time getting a job or be the only Tier 4 in a market and have very little trouble getting a job. I think market saturation is probably more of a problem than having a tier 4.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: strongmace on May 07, 2007, 09:00:06 AM
The number of lawyers should be controlled by the bar exam, not necessarily by the number of accredicted schools.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: queencruella on May 07, 2007, 09:01:56 AM
The number of lawyers should be controlled by the bar exam, not necessarily by the number of accredicted schools.

I think some states actually do that. From what I understand Florida bar exam results go to the Fl. Supreme Ct. who then decides what the pass rate is depending on how many lawyers are needed.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Swibbles on May 07, 2007, 09:02:32 AM
part of the problem is it doesn't make a lot of sense to rank schools nationally beyond a certain point.  the T3/4 guys in one region are not competing with those in another.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on May 07, 2007, 09:03:12 AM
Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm not sure that everyone SHOULD be able to be a lawyer just because they want to.  I want to play in the NBA, but if they did let me in, the quality of the game would probably plummet.  I know it's not the best analogy, but I guess the bottom line is that I feel that the legal industry should make a greater effort to up the quality.  Not just the quality of lawyers, but the quality of opportunities available to lawyers.

Let's say there was only T1-T3.  Wouldn't it increase the prospects of those in the T3?  And those who couldn't get in the first time around could work hard and reapply.  In some countries (I know people hate it when I start this kind of thinking), people try for years to get admitted to be a lawyer.  Consequentially, being a lawyer at all is a big deal. 



But some Tier 4's have fine placement. It depends on the market. You can be in a tier 3 in a saturated market and have a hard time getting a job or be the only Tier 4 in a market and have very little trouble getting a job. I think market saturation is probably more of a problem than having a tier 4.

agreed
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Nontradloserwhoattendsatier2onstudentloansheis on May 07, 2007, 09:23:50 AM
One of the most depressing things I ever encountered was a night manager at a Days Inn who went to a T4 and couldn't get a job.

LIAR! Tier2 students can get any job they want by networking.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Swibbles on May 07, 2007, 09:26:17 AM
One of the most depressing things I ever encountered was a night manager at a Days Inn who went to a T4 and couldn't get a job.

LIAR! Tier2 students can get any job they want by networking.

you need to put some variety into this schtick to make it interesting.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Nontradloserwhoattendsatier2onstudentloansheis on May 07, 2007, 09:27:07 AM
Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm not sure that everyone SHOULD be able to be a lawyer just because they want to.  I want to play in the NBA, but if they did let me in, the quality of the game would probably plummet.  I know it's not the best analogy, but I guess the bottom line is that I feel that the legal industry should make a greater effort to up the quality.  Not just the quality of lawyers, but the quality of opportunities available to lawyers.

Let's say there was only T1-T3.  Wouldn't it increase the prospects of those in the T3?  And those who couldn't get in the first time around could work hard and reapply.  In some countries (I know people hate it when I start this kind of thinking), people try for years to get admitted to be a lawyer.  Consequentially, being a lawyer at all is a big deal. 



But some Tier 4's have fine placement. It depends on the market. You can be in a tier 3 in a saturated market and have a hard time getting a job or be the only Tier 4 in a market and have very little trouble getting a job. I think market saturation is probably more of a problem than having a tier 4.

agreed

Me too. As long as WE think it's a good degree, that's all that matters.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: mathlete on May 07, 2007, 09:35:56 AM
This thread makes me quite pleased that I'm not going to law school. What the hell was I thinking applying in the first place? :D

Now I can go back to disliking lawyers and making lawyer jokes without feeling any guilt. Woohoo! You ambulance chasing leeches are all the same, stop quibbling over schools.  ;)
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Swibbles on May 07, 2007, 09:46:18 AM
putz.

hmmmm......
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 07, 2007, 09:57:19 AM
One of the most depressing things I ever encountered was a night manager at a Days Inn who went to a T4 and couldn't get a job.

LIAR! Tier2 students can get any job they want by networking.

I guess this would be why the LSAT seemed difficult huh?    j/k
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: natalunia on May 07, 2007, 10:08:04 AM
I know of several very successful attorneys who went to South Texas College of Law in Houston (which is a T4 if I remember correctly). For instance, one of them has made millions in toxic torts and has a great boutique firm for toxics. Don't count out the T4's, especially STCL...
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: pastor of muppets on May 07, 2007, 10:15:00 AM
One of the most depressing things I ever encountered was a night manager at a Days Inn who went to a T4 and couldn't get a job.

And yet you still let him suck you off?   :o
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: ptown on May 07, 2007, 10:35:59 AM
The number of lawyers should be controlled by the bar exam, not necessarily by the number of accredicted schools.

I think some states actually do that. From what I understand Florida bar exam results go to the Fl. Supreme Ct. who then decides what the pass rate is depending on how many lawyers are needed.


Shouldn't the market be regulated by demand?  If there are too many lawyers they all won't get hired, thus you will always have exactly the right number of lawyers practicing, since many won't be able to succeed in private practice straight off.

Wait isn't that how it works now?  For everything...

We don't need some governmental or quasi-governmental body telling us what education we can or can't pursue.  If everyone in the USA wants to go to school to be a lawyer, doctor, or whatever else, they should be able to attempt it.  Many wont make it into school, some won't pass the licensing exam, many others will fail in the workplace, but at least they have the option to try.

The government regulating how many people can study this or that sounds a bit too socialist for me.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 07, 2007, 10:39:20 AM
The number of lawyers should be controlled by the bar exam, not necessarily by the number of accredicted schools.

No on both accounts, the number of lawyers should be controlled by the invisible hand of the free market. Not to go all Adam Smith on your asses, but I would imagine if in any country the "supply and demand" mentality was wanted, it would be in the US.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: adlai on May 07, 2007, 10:42:56 AM
Yes, I do think there are probably too many tier 4 schools.

It would be better if law schools were more limiting, especially with the ridiculously high costs.

And a surprising number of yale/harvard grads go into public interest, if anything, graduates from tier 4 schools are the least likely to do low-income stuff.

With fewer lawyers from crappy tier 4 schools, there probably would be less litigation, fewer personal liability leeches, and so on.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 07, 2007, 10:50:26 AM
With fewer lawyers from crappy tier 4 schools, there probably would be less litigation, fewer personal liability leeches, and so on.

Hardly. If you think it's Tier 4 lawyers that are the reason for $65million law suits for lost pants, you're severely mistaken.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: pastor of muppets on May 07, 2007, 10:51:50 AM
Yes, I do think there are probably too many tier 4 schools.

It would be better if law schools were more limiting, especially with the ridiculously high costs.

And a surprising number of yale/harvard grads go into public interest, if anything, graduates from tier 4 schools are the least likely to do low-income stuff.

With fewer lawyers from crappy tier 4 schools, there probably would be less litigation, fewer personal liability leeches, and so on.

Thats the most ridiculous piece of Tier 4 hate I've ever read.  Do you HONESTLY believe that Tier 4 schools are the reason there are too many lawsuits in the U.S.?   ::)
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 07, 2007, 11:54:50 AM
The number of lawyers should be controlled by the bar exam, not necessarily by the number of accredicted schools.

No on both accounts, the number of lawyers should be controlled by the invisible hand of the free market. Not to go all Adam Smith on your asses, but I would imagine if in any country the "supply and demand" mentality was wanted, it would be in the US.

This is a good point. The problem with law school is that students don't realize how low the demand is until they graduate. Sure US News tells them that almost half their class doesn't have a job at graduation. Sure US News tells them they have very little chance at getting a high paying biglaw job. But for some reason they just don't want to accept it. Eventually they graduate, are forced into a bad job to pay off their loans, and finally accept reality, but by then it's too late.

In response to OP. There IS something wrong with tier 3 schools. They are a fraud and a scam. They are a way for top school grads to earn an easy $150,000 per year, at your expense.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 07, 2007, 12:08:14 PM
This is a good point. The problem with law school is that students don't realize how low the demand is until they graduate. Sure US News tells them that almost half their class doesn't have a job at graduation. Sure US News tells them they have very little chance at getting a high paying biglaw job. But for some reason they just don't want to accept it. Eventually they graduate, are forced into a bad job to pay off their loans, and finally accept reality, but by then it's too late.

Yeah, those bad legal jobs instead of taking all the wonderful, instant-millionaire bachelor's degree based jobs out there. Damn fools, not just becoming the new Bill Gates.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: strongmace on May 07, 2007, 12:19:05 PM
The number of lawyers should be controlled by the bar exam, not necessarily by the number of accredicted schools.

No on both accounts, the number of lawyers should be controlled by the invisible hand of the free market. Not to go all Adam Smith on your asses, but I would imagine if in any country the "supply and demand" mentality was wanted, it would be in the US.

it is controlled by the bar :|

if you dont pass, you suck!
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 07, 2007, 12:22:35 PM
This is a good point. The problem with law school is that students don't realize how low the demand is until they graduate. Sure US News tells them that almost half their class doesn't have a job at graduation. Sure US News tells them they have very little chance at getting a high paying biglaw job. But for some reason they just don't want to accept it. Eventually they graduate, are forced into a bad job to pay off their loans, and finally accept reality, but by then it's too late.

Yeah, those bad legal jobs instead of taking all the wonderful, instant-millionaire bachelor's degree based jobs out there. Damn fools, not just becoming the new Bill Gates.

You don't need to make a million dollars to have a good job. You do need to make more than $60,000 though, especially when you have $1,500 a month in student loan payments.

That's just a stupid post. No wonder you got a 156 and a 3.0. While we're on the topic, you don't deserve to be at NYU. You're dumber than most of the people going to tier 4 schools. Plain and simple, you stole someone's spot. I hope karma repays you for that. Not to mention repaying you for all the people you killed in the military. Baby killing animal.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 07, 2007, 12:27:46 PM
Well mate, life ain't fair. So whether I deserved the spot or not really doesn't mean jack *&^% to me. I got it, I'll take advantage of it.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: ptown on May 07, 2007, 12:37:45 PM

This is a good point. The problem with law school is that students don't realize how low the demand is until they graduate. Sure US News tells them that almost half their class doesn't have a job at graduation. Sure US News tells them they have very little chance at getting a high paying biglaw job. But for some reason they just don't want to accept it. Eventually they graduate, are forced into a bad job to pay off their loans, and finally accept reality, but by then it's too late.



So you are saying that most people are too dumb to make their own choices, so they should be made for them?  If people make bad choices, that is just too bad for them.  Free will and all that...

What about those that do make it?  Should they have not had the chance?


Also, I guess you would agree with the statement Biglaw = bad job

Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 07, 2007, 12:46:56 PM
First of all, most people at top law schools have had some work experience, often as legal assistance, in finance, or in politics/government. Second, its not the t14 or whatever you want to call it grads who started this whole idea of no jobs for t3/t4. JDJive was dedicated to telling people how impossible it is to get a job rom anything but a t1. You have that loyola 2l guy whining about his inability to find a job... so stop pointing to us.

first, most people at top law schools have had work experience...etc etc etc...   upon WHAT do you base that assumption?

second, where in my post did i even reference the t14? 

third, where am i pointing to you? 

 













ya know the internet is a funny place.  because you can't see the people with whom you are conversing, their posts seem to become somehow more authoritative than they really are.

for example, i suspect that most of the posters who tell us that there is no future or no jobs for us t3 grads are what -- 23/24 years old?  and that many of them have gone to school on daddy's nickel and have never held a job outside of maybe slinging burgers or stocking shelves?

what credentials do they possess that makes them an authority on anything?  especially to tell us non-trads about life, the workforce, the future, economics, or anything else for that matter?

that 5 years ago, when i was sitting on the board of a multi-national nfp organization, many of them had no greater concern than getting in their girlfriend's pants after the prom.

that 10 years ago, when i was finishing up my first professional degree, many of them couldn't even legally drive.

that 20 years ago, when i held a command as a military officer, many of them weren't even in pre-school.

now there are many of you younger guys and gals on this board that are pretty damn smart.  a few of you are even brilliant.   

i will be your colleague, hell, i might even end up working for you.

that's fine.  you'll earn my respect and loyalty through your competence, by being a damn good attorney.  there may be things i can learn from you about the lawyering profession, once we get into practice.

that's fine too.

but you'll have to earn those credentials.  you don't have them now.

so don't try to tell me anything about how my life is going to be, or try to pass yourself off and as expert on anything.  because you're not.



edit:  this is not a blanket condemnation of every 20-something on the board -- only the trolls, who know who they are.



[/quote]
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 07, 2007, 12:50:34 PM

This is a good point. The problem with law school is that students don't realize how low the demand is until they graduate. Sure US News tells them that almost half their class doesn't have a job at graduation. Sure US News tells them they have very little chance at getting a high paying biglaw job. But for some reason they just don't want to accept it. Eventually they graduate, are forced into a bad job to pay off their loans, and finally accept reality, but by then it's too late.



So you are saying that most people are too dumb to make their own choices, so they should be made for them?  If people make bad choices, that is just too bad for them.  Free will and all that...

What about those that do make it?  Should they have not had the chance?


Also, I guess you would agree with the statement Biglaw = bad job



Please do not go into any area of the law based on preventing fraud or deception. Since that's every every area of the law, you should just stay out of the legal field altogether.

This is another problem. People are practicing law without the required aptitude and it makes the profession look bad.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: kirkcameronsgf on May 07, 2007, 01:00:05 PM
tag
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: ptown on May 07, 2007, 01:11:36 PM

This is a good point. The problem with law school is that students don't realize how low the demand is until they graduate. Sure US News tells them that almost half their class doesn't have a job at graduation. Sure US News tells them they have very little chance at getting a high paying biglaw job. But for some reason they just don't want to accept it. Eventually they graduate, are forced into a bad job to pay off their loans, and finally accept reality, but by then it's too late.



So you are saying that most people are too dumb to make their own choices, so they should be made for them?  If people make bad choices, that is just too bad for them.  Free will and all that...

What about those that do make it?  Should they have not had the chance?


Also, I guess you would agree with the statement Biglaw = bad job



Please do not go into any area of the law based on preventing fraud or deception. Since that's every every area of the law, you should just stay out of the legal field altogether.

This is another problem. People are practicing law without the required aptitude and it makes the profession look bad.


I state that people should be able to make their own financial and educational decisions, and you equate that to advocating fraud?

Perhaps you could enlighten us by proving that all schools under the USNWR rank of 50 are in fact committing fraud by enrolling students.



Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: CoxlessPair on May 07, 2007, 01:27:03 PM
BAFF for unreads
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 07, 2007, 01:41:41 PM

This is a good point. The problem with law school is that students don't realize how low the demand is until they graduate. Sure US News tells them that almost half their class doesn't have a job at graduation. Sure US News tells them they have very little chance at getting a high paying biglaw job. But for some reason they just don't want to accept it. Eventually they graduate, are forced into a bad job to pay off their loans, and finally accept reality, but by then it's too late.



So you are saying that most people are too dumb to make their own choices, so they should be made for them?  If people make bad choices, that is just too bad for them.  Free will and all that...

What about those that do make it?  Should they have not had the chance?


Also, I guess you would agree with the statement Biglaw = bad job



Please do not go into any area of the law based on preventing fraud or deception. Since that's every every area of the law, you should just stay out of the legal field altogether.

This is another problem. People are practicing law without the required aptitude and it makes the profession look bad.


I state that people should be able to make their own financial and educational decisions, and you equate that to advocating fraud?

Perhaps you could enlighten us by proving that all schools under the USNWR rank of 50 are in fact committing fraud by enrolling students.







dont pay attention to the self-proclaimed expert.

just let him bray
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: grlykoolblah on May 07, 2007, 02:19:42 PM
Sigh,  So basically is it that if you Go to a t14 school you are a good/ethical/moral person who will make a great ethical lawyer? If you go to a t4 school you are not?  Am I the only person who wants to go to law school to help people?  There is just so much wrong w/this thread that it makes me sick!  Oh btw, b4 anyone says I'm just trying to rationalize my decision let me just state yeah I'm going to a T20-25 school, but my husband w/go to a t4 (JD and LLm fr tax )school (bc gasps his job asked him to/and they are paying for it).  My sister is going to IUPUI bc they have excellent health law (and again her employer asked her to).  Everyone has different reasons for doing what they do.  I will say I think it is bad that some of the lower ranked schools have the deadly curves and what not, but I refuse to say that the state of the legal profession is due to t4 grads.  I worked for a collections firm where the founding attys were from USC, and let me just say if you want to talk about frivolous actions/ disregard for ethics then you  can look no further than the 3rd prty collections agencies.  Again all of this is just my opinion.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 07, 2007, 02:29:03 PM
I like pie.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 07, 2007, 02:44:33 PM
I like pie.

hair pie?  moon pie?  which?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: mathlete on May 07, 2007, 02:56:55 PM
Yes, I do think there are probably too many tier 4 schools.

It would be better if law schools were more limiting, especially with the ridiculously high costs.

And a surprising number of yale/harvard grads go into public interest, if anything, graduates from tier 4 schools are the least likely to do low-income stuff.

With fewer lawyers from crappy tier 4 schools, there probably would be less litigation, fewer personal liability leeches, and so on.

Heh. Are you serious?

Which of the following statements represents a key flaw in the argument presented in this post?

a) Fails to establish that the contradictory results mentioned in the arguments are the result of other causes
b) Falsely identifies the proximate and ultimate causes in the chain of causation
c) Relies upon an ambiguous use of a key term
d) Applies a standard for accepting the correctness of a theory that may be satisfied equally well by another theory
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: adlai on May 07, 2007, 03:03:57 PM
okay, the most notorious personal injury lawyers, you know, the ones that you see advertising on late-night/daytime tv... where do you think they got their degrees from? I'll wager mostly tier 4's.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: jillibean on May 07, 2007, 03:17:01 PM
okay, the most notorious personal injury lawyers, you know, the ones that you see advertising on late-night/daytime tv... where do you think they got their degrees from? I'll wager mostly tier 4's.

it's true. A guy I work with for events and such is a lawyer- a highly successful one at that with a really hott wife (trophy) and an awesome car (not that any of that equals success but it shows it)....and he went to a T4- one that we make fun of a lot on this site
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 07, 2007, 03:19:05 PM
Yes, I do think there are probably too many tier 4 schools.

It would be better if law schools were more limiting, especially with the ridiculously high costs.

And a surprising number of yale/harvard grads go into public interest, if anything, graduates from tier 4 schools are the least likely to do low-income stuff.

With fewer lawyers from crappy tier 4 schools, there probably would be less litigation, fewer personal liability leeches, and so on.

Heh. Are you serious?

Which of the following statements represents a key flaw in the argument presented in this post?

a) Fails to establish that the contradictory results mentioned in the arguments are the result of other causes
b) Falsely identifies the proximate and ultimate causes in the chain of causation
c) Relies upon an ambiguous use of a key term
d) Applies a standard for accepting the correctness of a theory that may be satisfied equally well by another theory



thats not even a passing grade.  good luck on an exam with that kind of answer.

okay, the most notorious personal injury lawyers, you know, the ones that you see advertising on late-night/daytime tv... where do you think they got their degrees from? I'll wager mostly tier 4's.


well, go ahead and prove it.  you do know how to use nalp, don't you?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: mathlete on May 07, 2007, 03:24:43 PM
okay, the most notorious personal injury lawyers, you know, the ones that you see advertising on late-night/daytime tv... where do you think they got their degrees from? I'll wager mostly tier 4's.
And that proves... what, exactly?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: BriGuy1818 on May 07, 2007, 03:29:44 PM
Tier depends on where you live, and want to practice.  I'm sure there are many attorneys in Memphis making a good living going to tier 4 but when you live in N.J. which is close enough to Yale, NYU, Columbia, etc. going to a t3 or t4 will not help.  After 5 years, no one cares about the school you went to.  The prosecutor of my county went to rutgers newark, and his assistant Widener, and they are succesful both financially, and politically, not to mention they are doing what they love. 
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: KillYourself on May 07, 2007, 04:25:48 PM
this thread is even crappier than when i first started posting in it (maybe it's my fault, who knows).

to sum up:  t14 = you're golden,  t15-t25 and you probably have to be above median to 1/3 to land big law, but otherwise you're also golden (especially if you don't give a *&^% about big law), t25-t50 same as above except you need probably top 15-20% for big law but otherwise you're pretty much fine finding a job, tier 2  top 10% for big law and you still should be relatively okay finding a job, tier 3 you have to be at the absolute top for a shot at big law and you might have some trouble finding a job until you pass the bar, tier 4 and you have basically no shot at big law and you might not find a job even after you pass the bar unless you can network well and the market you're in has a need for more attorneys.  there are obviously exceptions to the above depending on the school and location.

there are definitely too many attorneys, but i don't think the problem is the number of law schools on second thought.  the bar exam needs to be much more difficult in every state.  the overall reputation of attorneys is pretty bad and this is not good for anyone (t14, tier 4, and everyone in between).   

this board seriously has to get a grip and realize that it's OKAY to criticize people's decisions to attend tier 3/4 schools.  if they can't stand up to it, they were likely to have an extremely bad time in law school anyways.  it's okay to debate whether it makes sense to stay in a tier 3 school when you're bottom of your class.  this does not make you a troll. 
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: CoxlessPair on May 07, 2007, 05:00:46 PM

to sum up:  t14 = you're golden,  t15-t25 and you probably have to be above median to 1/3 to land big law, but otherwise you're also golden (especially if you don't give a *&^% about big law), t25-t50 same as above except you need probably top 15-20% for big law but otherwise you're pretty much fine finding a job,

What about those of us at schools ranked exactly at #25? Which category do we fall in?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: slacker on May 07, 2007, 05:02:52 PM
this board seriously has to get a grip and realize that it's OKAY to criticize people's decisions to attend tier 3/4 schools.  if they can't stand up to it, they were likely to have an extremely bad time in law school anyways.  it's okay to debate whether it makes sense to stay in a tier 3 school when you're bottom of your class.  this does not make you a troll. 
Why is it okay? It's not your life. You don't know an individual's reasons for being where they are, and doing what he or she is doing.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: strongmace on May 07, 2007, 05:04:23 PM
What about those of us at schools ranked exactly at #25? Which category do we fall in?

you are in limbo

EDIT: damn you matthies for posting just before me!
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: slacker on May 07, 2007, 05:08:52 PM
What about those of us at schools ranked exactly at #25? Which category do we fall in?

you are in limbo

EDIT: damn you matthies for posting just before me!
Limbo is in limbo, per one of the latest church proclamations. I think screwed is the more appropriate term.

As for the "richest lawyers" post that precedes mine, reminds me of the old saying:
- Law students who get A's become professors
- Law students who get B's become judges
- Law students who get C's become rich
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: CoxlessPair on May 07, 2007, 05:44:14 PM
What about those of us at schools ranked exactly at #25? Which category do we fall in?

you are in limbo

EDIT: damn you matthies for posting just before me!
Limbo is in limbo, per one of the latest church proclamations. I think screwed is the more appropriate term.

As for the "richest lawyers" post that precedes mine, reminds me of the old saying:
- Law students who get A's become professors
- Law students who get B's become judges
- Law students who get C's become rich

Unless of course you are banking $4,000,000 annually at Watchell. Then you need As again.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 07, 2007, 06:04:15 PM
Wachtell's lockstep system doesn't pay 4mill does it? :p
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: CoxlessPair on May 07, 2007, 06:14:23 PM
Wachtell's lockstep system doesn't pay 4mill does it? :p

I always factor in the bonus and stolen office supplies in my salary forecasts. Watchell has a lot of pens to steal and chairs to put on Craigslist.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: adlai on May 07, 2007, 07:47:38 PM
Btw, barring people at the bar is a pretty awful idea. Because, if you go through 3 years of law school only to fail the bar... you're in the hole 150k.

Seriously, law school should make it so that if you are going to put in the investment, and you make it through all three years, then you will have a good job. Oh, I wish.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 08, 2007, 08:13:10 AM
Btw, barring people at the bar is a pretty awful idea. Because, if you go through 3 years of law school only to fail the bar... you're in the hole 150k.

Seriously, law school should make it so that if you are going to put in the investment, and you make it through all three years, then you will have a good job. Oh, I wish.

It would make much more sense to limit the number of law schools.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: pastor of muppets on May 08, 2007, 10:51:36 AM
Btw, barring people at the bar is a pretty awful idea. Because, if you go through 3 years of law school only to fail the bar... you're in the hole 150k.

Seriously, law school should make it so that if you are going to put in the investment, and you make it through all three years, then you will have a good job. Oh, I wish.

It would make much more sense to limit the number of law schools.

What about eugenics to stop Tier 3/Tier 4 students from breeding?  I know it'll take a while to pay off, but by the next generation maybe we could really clean up the profession.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 08, 2007, 11:04:05 AM
Perhaps more efficient would be exiling all tier 1 graduates who despite their prestigious education turned out to be sub-par lawyers. This would make more room for the people who did turn into good lawyers, be it from tier 1 or tier 3 schools to get acceptance into more firms etc. Reality is, the T14 schools produce a lot of worthless graduates who take up spots in the employment circle (at least for a few years) that would be better spent on others. My sixth sense tells me wiimote falls into this category, but I shall not judge.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: prelaw200 on May 08, 2007, 11:16:53 AM
http://news.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/05/08/when-student-loans-dont-pay-off/

Hit control F, type in law, and read these people's stories.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 08, 2007, 11:19:09 AM
People whining in comment fields on a blog is totally new. Good find.

That being said, I did actually find one good comment there;

Quote
Yup. Best decision I ever made. Otherwise I’d be flipping burgers or some other menial task for little pay, no benefits and no security. And I’ll be trippling my debt for a Master’s Degree. Not everybody can have mommy and daddy pay their way, so we have to go into debt, it’s not that bad - I make more than my parents (no degree) did at my age. Just gotta live within my means for a few years and not try to keep up with the Joneses.

Seriously America, it’s not that hard to give up cable/satellite and drive a POS car (or better yet, a bike!) and live cheap long enough to pay what you owe.

I'd rather encourage people to listen to these comments than the "OMG NOBODY WAS WAITING AT THE DOOR WITH A $150k/year JOB FOR ME!!"
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Suckit on May 08, 2007, 12:55:20 PM
Perhaps more efficient would be exiling all tier 1 graduates who despite their prestigious education turned out to be sub-par lawyers. This would make more room for the people who did turn into good lawyers, be it from tier 1 or tier 3 schools to get acceptance into more firms etc. Reality is, the T14 schools produce a lot of worthless graduates who take up spots in the employment circle (at least for a few years) that would be better spent on others. My sixth sense tells me wiimote falls into this category, but I shall not judge.

ummm... u spent the second to last sentence and the first clause in the last sentence judging.... Internal contradiction flaw.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 08, 2007, 12:56:47 PM
Did not.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: CoxlessPair on May 08, 2007, 01:02:33 PM
Perhaps more efficient would be exiling all tier 1 graduates who despite their prestigious education turned out to be sub-par lawyers. This would make more room for the people who did turn into good lawyers, be it from tier 1 or tier 3 schools to get acceptance into more firms etc. Reality is, the T14 schools produce a lot of worthless graduates who take up spots in the employment circle (at least for a few years) that would be better spent on others. My sixth sense tells me wiimote falls into this category, but I shall not judge.

ummm... u spent the second to last sentence and the first clause in the last sentence judging.... Internal contradiction flaw.

I think that was Keno using a rhetorical device and not expressly warranting that there would be no judging.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: jdin3 on May 08, 2007, 02:04:55 PM
I'll probably end up going to a tier three and I'm fine with it.

Whick T3's do you think are the best?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: plex on May 08, 2007, 02:25:42 PM
http://www.elsblog.org/the_empirical_legal_studi/files/the_us_news_and_world_report_rankings_without_the_clutter.pdf

The rankings, same criteria US News uses, but some of the lesser criteria removed. It numbers the schools, rather than lumping them into tier3/tier4 or dumping them into a whole lower tier for a year because of mis-reported data.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 08, 2007, 02:36:11 PM
Interesting ranking. Good to see Regent didn't go all the way to the bottom :)
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: plex on May 08, 2007, 02:40:05 PM
The schools at the very bottom are the ones you'd expect and deserve to be at the bottom.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 08, 2007, 02:41:31 PM
No doubt. Kinda sad that the second to last school is the one with the best placement in the current administration tho. Where's the Cooley love, Dubya?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 08, 2007, 03:19:20 PM
Still don't think tier 3 schools are a fraud and a scam? Read this.

I went to law school, graduated with 80 grand in debt, tried private practice for a few years, got out, went back for my teaching certificate and now I’m teaching high school Spanish. I make as much as my friends who are prosecutors and I have less stress and better benefits and vacation. I still will probably never pay off my student loans though.

— Posted by Aaron in St. Louis

http://news.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/05/08/when-student-loans-dont-pay-off/#comment-60575

Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 08, 2007, 03:20:46 PM
Stillllll don't think tier 3 schools are a fraud and a scam? Read this.

i went to state school for undergrad but, pending my law school graduation, i now owe about $120,000 for that j.d. i will be a public defender earning, well, not very much. a little more than my sister, who barely graduated high school and works in a customer service job. of course, my sister has capped her income in the mid-30s. i have earning potential thanks to my degree. i also get to give back to society by serving in a public interest position, something customer service employees, nice as they may be, aren’t doing. as a public defender, i assure you that i have job security. i don’t get to eat out alot but have compensated by becoming a great cook. i don’t get to buy a house in the next few years, but considering the price range i’d be looking in, any house i buy would be a money pit. renting is smart! i get to help people who truly need it and that is important to me. it’s a job i could not have done without the degree. so i think it was worth it.

— Posted by liz

http://news.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/05/08/when-student-loans-dont-pay-off/#comment-60580

Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 08, 2007, 03:22:19 PM
Stillllllllll don't think you're getting scammed?

As a lawyer, almost half of my paycheck each month goes to student loans. Before law school I remember thinking that taking out loans was fine because I would be making a lot of money once I graduated. That is not the case for about 80% of lawyers, particularly if you want to go into public service, including working for the government. Many law schools emphasize public service, but lack the means to really assist those students who pursue careers helping the public. If I knew then what I know now, I would have gone to school part-time and worked my way through law school in order to have less debt.

— Posted by Robyn

http://news.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/05/08/when-student-loans-dont-pay-off/#comment-60586
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: pastor of muppets on May 08, 2007, 03:23:06 PM
Oh look:  anecdotal evidence from anonymous posters on an internet message board.  You've swayed me, wiimote!
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 08, 2007, 03:24:44 PM
Did you read the stuff I posted for you? Let me explain it simply to you.

If you were smart enough to realize you're being scammed, you wouldn't be attending a tier 2, 3 or 4 law school.

HTH
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: pastor of muppets on May 08, 2007, 03:26:43 PM
You're right, I wish I was smart enough to take everything I read on the internet as Gospel.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 08, 2007, 03:27:28 PM
You're right, I wish I was smart enough to take everything I read on the internet as Gospel.

Whatever. Enjoy your post graduation bad job massive debt pwnage.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 08, 2007, 03:29:09 PM
You're right, I wish I was smart enough to take everything I read on the internet as Gospel.

Whatever. Enjoy your post graduation bad job massive debt pwnage.


thank you again, o self-proclaimed expert!   :P
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 08, 2007, 03:30:13 PM
You're right, I wish I was smart enough to take everything I read on the internet as Gospel.

Whatever. Enjoy your post graduation bad job massive debt pwnage.

Look, if you're not going to a tier2/3/4 school yourself, why the @#!* do you care so much?

That Aaron guy from St. Louis seems pretty bright. If teachers are making, what, 70-80k a year in STL, I'd say that's a pretty good place to be a teacher? And if he's "never going to pay off" his $80k student loan, I sure as @#!* hope he never plans to buy a home.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 08, 2007, 03:33:27 PM
You're right, I wish I was smart enough to take everything I read on the internet as Gospel.

Whatever. Enjoy your post graduation bad job massive debt pwnage.

Look, if you're not going to a tier2/3/4 school yourself, why the @#!* do you care so much?

That Aaron guy from St. Louis seems pretty bright. If teachers are making, what, 70-80k a year in STL, I'd say that's a pretty good place to be a teacher? And if he's "never going to pay off" his $80k student loan, I sure as @#!* hope he never plans to buy a home.




he's apparently an angry little boy who didn't get enough hugs growing up and was picked on by the football team


i can just see him on his soapbox, shaking his little fist
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 08, 2007, 03:34:38 PM
Hmm, I can give him a hug, I'm not even homophobic.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: pastor of muppets on May 08, 2007, 03:35:10 PM
You're right, I wish I was smart enough to take everything I read on the internet as Gospel.

Whatever. Enjoy your post graduation bad job massive debt pwnage.

Maybe if you post that in bigger letters it will finally get through my apparently thick skull?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: queencruella on May 08, 2007, 03:41:53 PM
Still don't think tier 3 schools are a fraud and a scam? Read this.

I went to law school, graduated with 80 grand in debt, tried private practice for a few years, got out, went back for my teaching certificate and now I’m teaching high school Spanish. I make as much as my friends who are prosecutors and I have less stress and better benefits and vacation. I still will probably never pay off my student loans though.

— Posted by Aaron in St. Louis

http://news.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/05/08/when-student-loans-dont-pay-off/#comment-60575



My friends who teach are pretty stressed and miserable. I think prosecutors probably make more than them as well. Bad argument.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: plex on May 08, 2007, 03:46:21 PM
In addition the job market for teaching is extremely stretched, far more teachers graduate than there are positions, perhaps it is only as bad as the law field, but it certainly isn't better. Districts across the country are having to merge due to the serious lack of students to fill schools. The boom of the 60s and 70s has been long gone for teachers.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: queencruella on May 08, 2007, 03:47:55 PM
In addition the job market for teaching is extremely stretched, far more teachers graduate than there are positions, perhaps it is only as bad as the law field, but it certainly isn't better. Districts across the country are having to merge due to the serious lack of students to fill schools. The boom of the 60s and 70s has been long gone for teachers.

That is not entirely true. Some states are still in dire need because they're growing, but those states also have the worse pay. (Florida, for instance.) The districts/states with excellent pay are very hard to get work in though.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Rule of Reason on May 08, 2007, 03:49:23 PM
Quote
Whatever. Enjoy your post graduation bad job massive debt pwnage.

"Scammed..." !?!  :D

Maybe some truth in this might apply for the many people who go to non-nat'l schools in other parts of the country that they don't even know, and they have no idea where they'll be when they get out...and nobody explicitly tells them about job prospects...

(Woah, just barely escaped that one).

But even considering that, good grief, (a) I don't think most l.s. grads walk out saying "I got scammed" and (b) they have the luxury to take such a risk in the first place.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 08, 2007, 04:04:56 PM
(b) they have the luxury to take such a risk in the first place.

Student loans aren't a luxury. You people are just dumb.

One other thing. You know the people bearing the fruits of the tier 3 scam? You know, those people making $175,000 per year to teach a few hours a week? Top school grads. Top school grads always win. Always. 
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: slacker on May 08, 2007, 04:11:00 PM
(b) they have the luxury to take such a risk in the first place.

Student loans aren't a luxury. You people are just dumb.

One other thing. You know the people bearing the fruits of the tier 3 scam? You know, those people making $175,000 per year to teach a few hours a week? Top school grads. Top school grads always win. Always. 

Massive insecurity + undeserved sense of entitlement = inadvertently amusing posts
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 08, 2007, 04:13:54 PM
Wow.... I am also in the "there are too many law schools" vein, but wiimote is way harsh.  Just out of curiousity, where are you going to law school?  Please not Michigan, please, please

There's no need to degrade people for going to T3/T4 schools.  Those schools aren't a scam, although many students may have an unrealistic idea of what their prospects are.  My argument is rather that the system should somehow adjust and reduce the number of schools that exist.  The point being to upgrade the prospects for people who are in the lower ranked schools.  
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: queencruella on May 08, 2007, 04:19:47 PM
Wow.... I am also in the "there are too many law schools" vein, but wiimote is way harsh.  Just out of curiousity, where are you going to law school?  Please not Michigan, please, please

There's no need to degrade people for going to T3/T4 schools.  Those schools aren't a scam, although many students may have an unrealistic idea of what their prospects are.  My argument is rather that the system should somehow adjust and reduce the number of schools that exist.  The point being to upgrade the prospects for people who are in the lower ranked schools. 

Jobs do exist, just not necessarily in markets people are interested in. Again, the real problem is that there are some markets that have far too many law schools, while some states are still adding schools to keep up with demand (or give more reputable options).
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Goodfella on May 08, 2007, 04:55:11 PM
Posted by one of the guys who ran Barely Legal:

If you haven't seen it yet, my good friend and co-blogger Russ made a new post on our old blog. If you're thinking about going to law school or are already in, you definitely should check it out. You might not like it, but the man speaks the truth.

His post inspired me to write a few wrap-up thoughts on law school, seeing as how I am almost a year removed from it, and have a little more perspective. I don't practice law, and I didn't even take the bar. I have a job that I like, in an industry that interests me. I am very lucky. You can agree with me if you want, you can disagree with me if you want, and either way I'm fine. And probably right.

For most people, law school is a mistake. The size of that mistake varies from person to person, ranging from "ate the worm from the tequila bottle and felt like *&^% all weekend" to "knocked up my 1st cousin and felt like pushing her down a flight of stairs was the best remedy," and all points in between. I documented this on my old blog, so I see no need to go into any detail, but the people for whom law school is a smart decision are those people who know exactly what they are getting themselves into, and actually want it. Everyone else is chasing a pipe dream.

Everyone has something that exposes their inner nerd, and mine is economics. I love it, I wish I had just gone to grad school for that instead. Regardless, it doesn't take a PhD to tell you that the economics of law school are screwed up. And I mean, seriously screwed up. Michael Lewis should write a book on it. Let me lay it out there for you:

Anyone can go to law school. There are way too many law schools out there. Probably at least 100 too many, maybe more. And more open every year. If you have a degree from an accredited university and an LSAT over 140 (and if you can't get over a 140 on the LSAT that degree from an accredited university is probably fraudulent) you can find a school to accept you. Might not be your first choice, or second, or tenth, but if you want it enough, you can go. How is this at all selective or exclusive? Easy answer: it isn't. As a result...

The market is flooded with law school graduates. This is simple supply and demand. The demand for lawyers is low, compared to the supply of lawyers available. This is really the *&^% you cover on the first day of Macroeconomics. Every year, tens of thousands of freshly minted JDs come on the market, and there aren't enough jobs for them. They simply don't exist. This benefits legal employers, because they can pick and choose who they want for the select few open jobs, but this means the law grads are the ones being screwed over. In an macroeconomic sense, this isn't a problem, except...

Law school is f-ing expensive. Even the worst of schools charge an arm and a leg for the right to attend. Now we're moving into microeconomics, which frankly, is more important to you, the individual. Prospective lawyers take on massive amounts of debt, usually well into the six figure range, to finance their education, and upon graduation, find little to no interest in their services. The "lucky" ones - those who attend a small number of elite schools, or who can graduate at the very top of their classes at the non elite schools- get to slave at a big firm for lots of money to pay off that debt. Some are stuck to fend off that female dog Sallie Mae while working relatively low playing legal jobs, and everyone else is strapped with debt, yet in the lawyers market, is virtually unemployable. This is hardly fair, but we forget...

Law schools are a business. The first goal of a business is to make money. By admitting more, less qualified students, or by creating new law schools, universities are simply exploiting another revenue stream. They don't care about the individual students. They care about the bottom line. Sure , they give lip service to caring about students, but that's all it is. Try this: go to your school, tell them you don't like your job options, and ask for a refund of your money. You already know what the reaction will be. They don't care about you, they care about your money. As long as you are paid in full, they're happy. If you happen to find success after, all the better, they'll use your story to sell it to future unsuspecting prospective students while conveniently ignoring all the grads who are working for low pay in bad jobs, or can't find a law job at all. To me...

This sounds a lot like a scam. You put down a lot of money up front for a potential payoff, but they don't tell you the odds of winning that payoff. In fact, it could be argued that they even mislead you to think your chances are better than they are. You work hard for the right to pay that money, and at the end, for many, the payoff never comes. This sounds like a scam. I'm not saying that it is a real scam, like a pyramid scheme...but it sounds like one. And the beauty (and perhaps, genius) of it is, the people whom law school attracts are just the people who don't believe they can be scammed. They all think they're the exception. Not one of them believes they will be the one with huge debt and no real prospects. Otherwise, why would they do it?

One of the biggest cliches in law school is that lawyers aren't good at math. I'd add economics to that list. Sadly, for most of them, as I just demonstrated, it's true.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Rule of Reason on May 08, 2007, 05:13:40 PM
I just googled "barely legal" and a Hustler site was the first search response.

Then I read some of the stuff on the blog.
Is it sexual deprivation fueling all this?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 08, 2007, 05:15:32 PM
I like Hustler.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 08, 2007, 05:21:20 PM
I just googled "barely legal" and a Hustler site was the first search response.

Then I read some of the stuff on the blog.
Is it sexual deprivation fueling all this?

i think its probably small penises.


pssst....T14 /=/ 14"
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 08, 2007, 05:22:36 PM
Goodfella's post has a lot of validity.  You can respond with jokes, but to those planning to attend T3/T4 schools, it is certainly something worth considering.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 08, 2007, 05:28:10 PM
what does not have validity is the "advice," liberally wrapped with condescending attitude, of many those who are going to higher ranked schools.

i for one am quite tired of it, and if mocking the purveyors of same will 1) make it go away or 2) make me feel better, then 3) i will continue to do so.

self proclaimed experts, apparently trying to validate their own lives at the expense of others.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 08, 2007, 05:28:58 PM
That's not the point possum. The point is that the same stuff is posted 50 times in every thread relating to any sub #50 school. It's getting f-ing old.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: slacker on May 08, 2007, 05:32:11 PM
Goodfella's post has a lot of validity.  You can respond with jokes, but to those planning to attend T3/T4 schools, it is certainly something worth considering.
Goodfella's post is second-hand, reeks of entitlement, and presumes that all attending law school have the same goal.

Some people attending law school, regardless of how a magazine ranks that school, should not be there. Who are you, or Goodfella, or Goodfella's writer, or whomever, to make that choice for someone else?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: pastor of muppets on May 08, 2007, 05:41:10 PM
Goodfella - I'm glad you've found something you liked to do.  Do you think your law degree helped you at all in getting or succeeding in that job?

Let me also say that you seem like a pretty smart guy, and that if you really wanted to succeed in law, you could have done so.  Maybe you just didn't like it.  Fine.  That happens.  Lots of people get into careers they don't like and end up making changes.  Or maybe you should have put more energy into getting a job rather than b*tching about how law school let you down.

I'm not sure, because I don't know you or your circumstances, but then again, you don't know mine.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 08, 2007, 05:42:14 PM
I think that article or blog or whatever that was isn't trying to make the choice for you.  Instead it's one take on the economics of the situation.  I don't know what everybody wants out of law school but it probably isn't to spend a long time stifled by ridiculous amounts of debt.  Yes.. SOME people can make a T3/T4 school economically viable with little suffering...but do people really think that's typical?

I said this before, (of course to be ridiculed) but one of the most depressing things I ever encountered was a night clerk at a Days Inn who went to a T4 and could never find a decent job.  I wasn't condenscending to him.  I was really sad.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Rule of Reason on May 08, 2007, 05:42:26 PM
Another word of advice, BIGLAW is Ego City (for better or for worse). Plenty of kids from the best schools will get hired at a big firm (or any prestigous job for that matter), think they're god, go offend some emotionally-needy / egotistically-fragile parter (or boss of some sort), and get thrown out on their head.  Then what?

(greater age-old point is, while better schools put you in a better position, there's never a guarantee that your career's gonna shine -- and having a lot at stake can wind up being good or bad - you'd better be able to manage).

EDIT: that being said I'd rather have a lot on my plate... not making a justification for complacency.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: slacker on May 08, 2007, 05:47:20 PM
I said this before, (of course to be ridiculed) but one of the most depressing things I ever encountered was a night clerk at a Days Inn who went to a T4 and could never find a decent job.  I wasn't condenscending to him.  I was really sad.
Is the fact that he couldn't find a decent job necessarily stemming from the fact that he went to a T4 law school? First, you can't conclude that causal link in this one anecdotal instance. Second, even if you could make such a link in this one case does not necessarily mean that the findings of one person's inadequacy to find a job translates to the problems of all T4 law school grads.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 08, 2007, 05:55:08 PM
If you look at the jobs at graduation number for T4's (many are N/A) but the best ones are at around 60-70 percent.  Many are 50% or below.  Some are at 20 - 30%!!!!!  The numbers for T3's are better, but not by that much.  There are so many N/A's that it's hard to tell what the overall picture is.  But if the numbers were good, I doubt it'd be N/A.

This is NOT the fault of the students.  Many of these students are probably very bright.  It is the fault of the system that they're paying into.

It is not an optimistic picture.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 08, 2007, 05:58:38 PM
Uhm, most of my friends who are working in various businesses were not employed at graduation either, that doesn't mean they're going to end up at the counter of McDonalds.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 08, 2007, 06:06:52 PM
If you look at the jobs at graduation number for T4's (many are N/A) but the best ones are at around 60-70 percent.  Many are 50% or below.  Some are at 20 - 30%!!!!!  The numbers for T3's are better, but not by that much.  There are so many N/A's that it's hard to tell what the overall picture is.  But if the numbers were good, I doubt it'd be N/A.

This is NOT the fault of the students.  Many of these students are probably very bright.  It is the fault of the system that they're paying into.

It is not an optimistic picture.




creighton, t3:  93.5 EMPLOYED, 0% STUDYING FOR BAR

ualr, t3:  79.2% EMPLOYED, 13.2% STUDYING FOR BAR

hamline, t4:  88% EMPLOYED, 5.5% STUDYING FOR BAR

granted, that's only 3 schools, but taking the employed + studying for bar figures, it just doesnt look as bleak as people make out.


of course, the troll answer will be "Theyre all lying!  You can't trust those figures!" 

to which i respond, "thanks, self-proclaimed expert.  and the empirical data study you did personally says....?  oh, you didn't do one?  you just read about it somewhere?  i see.  so therefore i should believe you (whom i've never met) because you read something somewhere (written by someone i don't know)."

not the most logical analysis, in my opinion.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: plex on May 08, 2007, 06:39:10 PM
It is not only possible to succeed from a tier 3/4, but it is more common than not. Of those who don't make it, I would suspect that the vast majority did not even see it coming. Honestly, anyone making an effort to contribute and learn from discussions with other law students on forums such as this (BEFORE they begin law school and cannot correct their mistakes), will very likely be successful.

The key to doing well in any sort of job is to actually actively pursue their degree and to use the options they have available. I watched completely capable people in engineering school, some of them amazingly intelligent/capable, not get jobs at all during their first and even second year of school. It happened because they weren't prepared for what they were going into. When I asked them who they had contacted, they told me that the job placement office at school hadn't contacted them with much of anything. It was ridiculous, all they had to do, was send out a few e-mails to the long list of hundreds of employers connected to the school, and with their fairly good grades, they would have easily gotten interviews, but instead, they sat on their butts, and some of them even had to leave out of discouragement, since they needed to gain some sort of technical job before senior year or they wouldn't graduate.

Anyone intelligent enough to network, is able to plan for the debt they are getting themselves into and can think themselves out of a paper bag can get a job. Those that don't either don't have the ability to earn even mediocre grades or really had no interest in (insert field here) in the first place (or both). They just didn't bother to really research it first to figure that out.

I will say the law school debt is a PITA, especially if want to go into the lowest paying types of law such as public defense or governmental work. But, there are lower costing law schools that will let a person graduate with less than a 100k debt, though probably not much less than 100k. That is still very burdensome for the lower end payscale law jobs, there are some deferment policies in place to help combat this, but it still is really isn't really nearly enough, people shouldn't be burdened with debt they cannot pay off for half their life just for a single level of education.

To those who "decided that law wasn't for them in the end, but are smart", I have no pity for you, and really don't care about your opinion, unless it is just to warn others to put some careful study in their choice. You should have known, when you saw those big dollar figures for the first time, AFTER already having been through undergrad, to have been able  to conceptualize that it was time to actually make some sort of decision on what you were going to do with your life, and if you decided to ignore it, then that is your problem. Graduate students are well past the point of breaking into adulthood, realize that you learned how life works late, and enjoy whatever it is you find makes you happy.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 08, 2007, 07:16:07 PM
Let's take the example of UALR you presented.  Well first of all that's 87% 9 months after graduation.  13% can't even find a job after nine months!!!!  The national unemployment rate (for those actively seeking a job) is less than 5%.  The bar passage rate for UALR people taking the bar in Arkansas is less than the average for the state!  The overall bar passage rate is higher, but i don't know the weighted average of passage rates for the agregate.  

Average starting salary is 47k.  I know that includes people in PI, but still....that's pretty grim taking in the debt from law school and maybe undergrad.

Sorry for picking on this particular school, but I'm just showing that all the numbers put together doesn't paint a pretty picture.  If folks understand that... well that's fine, but it isn't as rosy as just saying... YAY!  87% !!!!

I hope that people reading these boards ARE the successful ones.  But I think having a realistic picture of the whole situation is important.  I know that for myself, I did a lot of analysis that included asking myself... what happens if I'm not in the top 30%?  What happens if I'm not in the top 50%?   What happens if I'm in the bottom 10%?  I tried to find out all that information and see if I could live with it.  

Please don't take this to say I hope T4's won't succeed.... I hope people do succeed, but also realize the uphill battle they're facing.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 08, 2007, 07:22:12 PM

latest bar passage figures just released were 93% -- they took some measures over the past year to try to bring that up, and apparently were successful.


as to the 47K, that is low, but again, its cost of living adjusted.


i'm not looking to make a gazillion dollars.  but i'll be able to pay my student loans, put money away for retirement, and live ok.

thats all i ever wanted to do anyway


edit:  heres all the figures: 


employed:  79.2%  (84)
pursuing graduate degrees: 4.7% (5)
unemployed seeking employment:  1.9% (2)
unemployed not seeking employment: .9% (1)
unemployed and studying for bar:  13.2% (14)


this is not bad, in my opinion.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: slacker on May 08, 2007, 07:36:59 PM
Let's take the example of UALR you presented.  Well first of all that's 87% 9 months after graduation.  13% can't even find a job after nine months!!!!  The national unemployment rate (for those actively seeking a job) is less than 5%.  The bar passage rate for UALR people taking the bar in Arkansas is less than the average for the state!  The overall bar passage rate is higher, but i don't know the weighted average of passage rates for the agregate.  

Average starting salary is 47k.  I know that includes people in PI, but still....that's pretty grim taking in the debt from law school and maybe undergrad.

Sorry for picking on this particular school, but I'm just showing that all the numbers put together doesn't paint a pretty picture.  If folks understand that... well that's fine, but it isn't as rosy as just saying... YAY!  87% !!!!

I hope that people reading these boards ARE the successful ones.  But I think having a realistic picture of the whole situation is important.  I know that for myself, I did a lot of analysis that included asking myself... what happens if I'm not in the top 30%?  What happens if I'm not in the top 50%?   What happens if I'm in the bottom 10%?  I tried to find out all that information and see if I could live with it.  

Please don't take this to say I hope T4's won't succeed.... I hope people do succeed, but also realize the uphill battle they're facing.
I still contend that it's rather patronizing to think that these students haven't considered the same things that you have prior to deciding to go to school, yet this appears to be the implication.

I suppose I should appreciate the amount of entertainment in these threads; after all, they're doing quite a good job of distracting me from studying for my final.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 08, 2007, 07:47:41 PM
Creighton
-------------
Graduates known to be employed at graduation: 74.7%
Median in the private sector: $65,000
Percent in the private sector who reported salary information: 75%
Median in public service: $43,000

U Ark. LR
--------------
Graduates known to be employed at graduation: N/A
Private sector (25th-75th percentile): $38,000 - $55,000
Median in the private sector: $47,750 lol
Percent in the private sector who reported salary information: 67%
Median in public service: $40,000

Hamline
---------------
Graduates known to be employed at graduation: 46.2%
Median in the private sector: $47,000
Percent in the private sector who reported salary information: 75%
Median in public service: $41,000

For comparison here are George Mason's stats (a bad tier 1 school.)
--------------
Graduates known to be employed at graduation: 96.5%
Median in the private sector: $101,250 (the market says thsi degree is worth twice your degree and their tuition is only $11,000 per year)
Percent in the private sector who reported salary information: 64%
Median in public service: $52,468

Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 08, 2007, 07:50:17 PM
The 'lol' probably isn't helpful.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 08, 2007, 07:52:00 PM
The 'lol' probably isn't helpful.

Sawwweey

Question for the engineers in this thread. If Joe makes $48,000, and has to make payments on $150,000 worth of student loans, how much does he effectively make?

Still don't think you're being scammed?

You people at tier 3 schools better start busting your ass in moot court or any class which will improve your trial skills, because plaintiff's law jury verdicts are the only way you're going to make money. The only theoretical course you take should be in plaintiff's law (toxic torts, employment discrimination and such.) I'm not even kidding.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 08, 2007, 07:57:00 PM
Well UALR probably isn't THAT expensive.  I don't think the average UALR student will be carrying quite THAT much debt unless it's carrying over from undergrad.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 08, 2007, 08:00:16 PM
i'll carry around 30k

so wii, go @#!* yourself
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: plex on May 08, 2007, 08:00:21 PM
I watched completely capable people in engineering school, some of them amazingly intelligent/capable, not get jobs at all during their first and even second year of school. It happened because they weren't prepared for what they were going into.

Guess engineering schools are tiered too... I know not a single person who got an undergrad degree (at any GPA) who was making under $53k (<2.5 GPA) within two months of graduation.

Then again, maybe you graduated 2002-2004.

My engineering school has a 99% employment rate, at least, if you graduate, there is about a 40% attrition rate. 2002-04 was probably the worst its been in the last 25-30 years, it still wasn't that difficult finding co-ops though.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: slacker on May 08, 2007, 08:01:04 PM
The 'lol' probably isn't helpful.

Sawwweey

Question for the engineers in this thread. If Joe makes $48,000, and has to make payments on $150,000 worth of student loans, how much does he effectively make?

Still don't think you're being scammed?

You people tier 3 schools better start busting your ass in moot court or any class which will improve your trial skills, because plaintiff's law jury verdicts are the only way you're going to make money. I'm not even kidding. All your courses better be related to plaintiff's litigation.
Did your babysitter fall asleep for the night?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 08, 2007, 08:04:24 PM
The 'lol' probably isn't helpful.

Sawwweey

Question for the engineers in this thread. If Joe makes $48,000, and has to make payments on $150,000 worth of student loans, how much does he effectively make?

Still don't think you're being scammed?

You people tier 3 schools better start busting your ass in moot court or any class which will improve your trial skills, because plaintiff's law jury verdicts are the only way you're going to make money. I'm not even kidding. All your courses better be related to plaintiff's litigation.
Did your babysitter fall asleep for the night?


he's still bemoaning his small penis.

these kids who think they're experts   ::)

Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Goodfella on May 08, 2007, 09:21:39 PM
Well, it wasn't me who posted that, it's one of the geniuses behind barelylegalblog.blogspot.com. Go there for all sorts of anecdotes about how hard it is to get a job out of a lower ranked school. But if you want data, here's the biggie (backed up by data the blog links to from the BLS and ABA): there are 1.2 million JDs but only 530,000 practicing lawyers. What happened to the rest of those JDs? Employment data count anyone working any job, not necessarily a legal one.

EDITED to give right URL
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 08, 2007, 09:33:29 PM
actually goodfella, the url is http://barelylegalblog.blogspot.com/

It seems a tiny bit overdone though....
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Qui Ju on May 08, 2007, 09:34:08 PM
Well, it wasn't me who posted that, it's one of the geniuses behind barelylegal.blogspot.com. Go there for all sorts of anecdotes about how hard it is to get a job out of a lower ranked school. But if you want data, here's the biggie (backed up by data the blog links to from the BLS and ABA): there are 1.2 million JDs but only 530,000 practicing lawyers. What happened to the rest of those JDs? Employment data count anyone working any job, not necessarily a legal one.

i aspire to be one of those non-practicing lawyers someday.

it'll give me time to work on my screenplay.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 03:00:51 AM
I'm just going to law school to become a stand-up comedian like Greg Giraldo...
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: queencruella on May 09, 2007, 04:39:50 AM
Well, it wasn't me who posted that, it's one of the geniuses behind barelylegalblog.blogspot.com. Go there for all sorts of anecdotes about how hard it is to get a job out of a lower ranked school. But if you want data, here's the biggie (backed up by data the blog links to from the BLS and ABA): there are 1.2 million JDs but only 530,000 practicing lawyers. What happened to the rest of those JDs? Employment data count anyone working any job, not necessarily a legal one.

EDITED to give right URL

Is that really so different from other professions other than medicine? The reality is that in any profession, there are many unhappy people who leave to do something else. A portion of those are probably retired as well.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 04:48:08 AM
I know plenty of unhappy doctors too, although there is essentially enough jobs for them, far from everyone gets a job they're happy with.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: queencruella on May 09, 2007, 04:53:23 AM
I know plenty of unhappy doctors too, although there is essentially enough jobs for them, far from everyone gets a job they're happy with.

I'm not disagreeing, but after spending 4 years in school and several more years in residency, people are probably less likely to quit. Plus, once people finish that phase, they are much more likely to have their own practice than lawyers.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 09, 2007, 06:07:01 AM
It is plenty different in medicine.  Medical schools strictly control the number of seats available, so there are good paying jobs available for any doctor. (who hasn't killed anybody or has any other strange problem)  Some may argue that there is a doctor shortage, but many also think that this has allowed better control over the quality of students they admit...and hence there are better doctors (which is important).  The legal industry has no such discipline.  Which is why many very bright and capable law students at lower tiered schools SEEM to get the short end of the stick.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: ptown on May 09, 2007, 06:43:53 AM
Still don't think tier 3 schools are a fraud and a scam? Read this.

I went to law school, graduated with 80 grand in debt, tried private practice for a few years, got out, went back for my teaching certificate and now I’m teaching high school Spanish. I make as much as my friends who are prosecutors and I have less stress and better benefits and vacation. I still will probably never pay off my student loans though.

— Posted by Aaron in St. Louis

http://news.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/05/08/when-student-loans-dont-pay-off/#comment-60575



Random anecdotal evidence from anonymous internet posters as evidence to prove fraud?  Not only is your argument lacking in concrete support, but it addresses none of the essential elements of fraud.  You are going to be a killer lawyer.

Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 06:47:44 AM
So, go to med school instead and stop bitching and whining then. The MCAT isn't that hard.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 09, 2007, 06:49:51 AM
If my only options were T3/T4, I probably would look elsewhere.  I hate bio though, so med school would probably not be an option.   ;D  So I guess to you, stating any problems with a system is just 'bitching' and shouldn't be addressed huh? 
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Butters Stotch on May 09, 2007, 06:58:33 AM
Still don't think tier 3 schools are a fraud and a scam? Read this.

I went to law school, graduated with 80 grand in debt, tried private practice for a few years, got out, went back for my teaching certificate and now I’m teaching high school Spanish. I make as much as my friends who are prosecutors and I have less stress and better benefits and vacation. I still will probably never pay off my student loans though.

— Posted by Aaron in St. Louis

http://news.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/05/08/when-student-loans-dont-pay-off/#comment-60575



Random anecdotal evidence from anonymous internet posters as evidence to prove fraud?  Not only is your argument lacking in concrete support, but it addresses none of the essential elements of fraud.  You are going to be a killer lawyer.

People who sport 'words' like 'pwnage' in quasi-intellectual settings are as free to give career advice as anyone else; however, they probably should not be taken seriously.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have a question about a point raised earlier in the thread:  Do assistant prosecutor/public defender jobs really pay only $35k-$40k in areas where you folks are located?  I know they make a bit more than that in my area of the country. 

Heck, I know paralegals who make similar salaries.  If this data is accurate, wouldn't it make more "financial" sense to drop out after the 1L year (assuming one does not make the top 20% of his/her class) and pursue a career as a paralegal instead.  Ostensibly, one would have all of the research and writing skills necessary for such a position...
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Butters Stotch on May 09, 2007, 07:00:52 AM
By the way, chapter 9 of Planet Law School II gives some solid insight as to the reason why these lower-tiered schools charge so much for tuition. 
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Reesespbcup on May 09, 2007, 07:01:29 AM
By the way, chapter 9 of Planet Law School II gives some solid insight as to the reason why these lower-tiered schools charge so much for tuition. 

Do share
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 07:01:34 AM
If my only options were T3/T4, I probably would look elsewhere.  I hate bio though, so med school would probably not be an option.   ;D  So I guess to you, stating any problems with a system is just 'bitching' and shouldn't be addressed huh? 
Good for you, so please, get the @#!* out of T3-related threads then.

Quote
Heck, I know paralegals who make similar salaries.  If this data is accurate, wouldn't it make more "financial" sense to drop out after the 1L year (assuming one does not make the top 20% of his/her class) and pursue a career as a paralegal instead.  Ostensibly, one would have all of the research and writing skills necessary for such a position...
Indeed a few 1Ls actually do this, and paralegal work is on an above average rise, so it's not a bad job per se to jump on. What you need to keep in mind is that paralegals suffer the same situation as most undergrad educations do. While the starting salary might not be bad, compared to the relatively cheap and easy education, you will hit your earning potential very quickly. If you compare a lawyer and a paralegal who both start out at $50k a year, the paralegal will only have potential of rising slightly, where as the lawyer essentially has no fixed cap on the potential future earnings (not saying all of the numbnuts with a JD will reach it).
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Qui Ju on May 09, 2007, 07:02:57 AM
If my only options were T3/T4, I probably would look elsewhere.  I hate bio though, so med school would probably not be an option.   ;D  So I guess to you, stating any problems with a system is just 'bitching' and shouldn't be addressed huh? 
Good for you, so please, get the @#!* out of T3-related threads then.

wait, aren't you going to NYU?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 09, 2007, 07:03:25 AM
It's going to be okay KeNo...relax...don't have a heart attack...
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Qui Ju on May 09, 2007, 07:04:57 AM
It's going to be okay

why do people keep saying this?  it's completely baseless and probably untrue.  it's NOT going to be okay. 
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Reesespbcup on May 09, 2007, 07:05:34 AM
It's going to be okay KeNo...relax...don't have a heart attack...

At least he's kinda polite
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 07:06:46 AM
wait, aren't you going to NYU?

I am, but my mother gave me love and attention, so I don't have this craving to be a female private part to everyone going to a lower ranked school to feel good about myself. Unlike quite a few others around here.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Qui Ju on May 09, 2007, 07:07:16 AM
wait, aren't you going to NYU?

I am, but my mother gave me love and attention, so I don't have this craving to be a female private part to everyone going to a lower ranked school to feel good about myself. Unlike quite a few others around here.

what about your dad?  :(
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Butters Stotch on May 09, 2007, 07:09:04 AM
By the way, chapter 9 of Planet Law School II gives some solid insight as to the reason why these lower-tiered schools charge so much for tuition. 

Do share

It's a really LONG chapter.   ;D 

Falcon (not his real name, btw) essentially blames the ABA's monopolistic stranglehold on the accreditation process (in the case of "independent" schools) for the phenomenon.  He blames the universities, in part, for the high costs of law school education at law schools tied to universities, and notes that universities regularly skim up to 40% of a law student's tuition to pay for underfunded programs elsewhere in the university.

I have no idea whether or not he is right about this, but he makes a very compelling argument.  If you don't own the book, and don't plan on purchasing it, stop by Borders and read Chapter 9. 
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 07:09:08 AM
Yup, my father too. I actually come from a very functioning family. It's all good. I even had friends in high school and stuff, so I guess I kinda stand out from the typical T14 crowd, at least if they can be judged by some of these posters.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 09, 2007, 07:09:37 AM
wait, aren't you going to NYU?

I am, but my mother gave me love and attention, so I don't have this craving to be a female private part to everyone going to a lower ranked school to feel good about myself. Unlike quite a few others around here.

what about your dad?  :(

So stating your opinion on how a system works/doesn't work is being a female private part huh?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: kirkcameronsgf on May 09, 2007, 07:10:33 AM
 :D Gawd, the arrogance in this thread is insane.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Qui Ju on May 09, 2007, 07:11:41 AM
Yup, my father too. I actually come from a very functioning family. It's all good. I even had friends in high school and stuff, so I guess I kinda stand out from the typical T14 crowd, at least if they can be judged by some of these posters.

hey now, that's uncalled for!

but yeah, give the dad some credit too.  i always feel bad that they never seem to get any appreciation.  

wait, aren't you going to NYU?

I am, but my mother gave me love and attention, so I don't have this craving to be a female private part to everyone going to a lower ranked school to feel good about myself. Unlike quite a few others around here.

what about your dad?  :(

So stating your opinion on how a system works/doesn't work is being a female private part huh?

way to go quoting the wrong person.  ;)
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 09, 2007, 07:12:21 AM
so sorry.  I need to work on that!!!!

apologies.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 07:12:31 AM
First, you're not stating your opinion, you're spamming on random anecdotal evidence by retards who screwed up and seems to be bigger crybabies than you are. Secondly, the same *&^% is posted in every single thread related to a Tier 3 school by the same f-ing people (you being one of the usual suspects) at least 20 times per thread.

Its...getting...really...old. Go get a life instead of trying to put down other people in some lame, half-assed attempt at building the self-confidence you obviously lack and hope UMich will grant you in the orientation.

Quote
but yeah, give the dad some credit too.  i always feel bad that they never seem to get any appreciation. 
Word ;)
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Butters Stotch on May 09, 2007, 07:13:04 AM
wait, aren't you going to NYU?

I am, but my mother gave me love and attention, so I don't have this craving to be a female private part to everyone going to a lower ranked school to feel good about myself. Unlike quite a few others around here.

what about your dad?  :(

So stating your opinion on how a system works/doesn't work is being a female private part huh?

You are always free to offer your opinion, but I also find it dubious that one who is "in at Michigan" would be the least bit interested in the plight of the T3/T4 plebs on LSD.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 09, 2007, 07:14:17 AM
Hey KeNo.... anger management is not that expensive.  No need to resort to insults. 
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Qui Ju on May 09, 2007, 07:15:08 AM
Hey KeNo.... anger management is not that expensive.  No need to resort to insults. 

anger management actually IS kind of expensive.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 07:15:43 AM
Hey KeNo.... anger management is not that expensive.  No need to resort to insults. 
Talk about the pot and the kettle? Do you seriously not see how all this *&^%-talking about these schools are highly insulting to everyone going there? Are you really that socially retarded?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: kirkcameronsgf on May 09, 2007, 07:16:59 AM
Hey KeNo.... anger management is not that expensive.  No need to resort to insults. 

anger management actually IS kind of expensive.

 :D :D
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Qui Ju on May 09, 2007, 07:17:39 AM
Hey KeNo.... anger management is not that expensive.  No need to resort to insults. 

anger management actually IS kind of expensive.

 :D :D

you wouldn't be laughing if it were YOU with the burning hole in the wallet.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 09, 2007, 07:17:48 AM
I am interested actually.  Somebody I'm close to is in a T2 and has found a decent job, but it has been a rough road.  If lawyers were more in demand, being a lawyer would be a far more pleasant career choice for everyone involved.  Imagine...you could be in at a "T3" and still have any opportunity you were looking for!  Wouldn't that be a great thing for the whole profession?  More controls at the door, but the benefits would be huge for everyone!  
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 09, 2007, 07:19:37 AM
Sorry for the wrong assumption that anger management was cheap.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 07:20:13 AM
Quote
More controls at the door, but the benefits would be huge for everyone! 
Except for the general public in need of legal services who then would have to pay $1250 an hour instead of $350 an hour. But yeah, lawyers would have more Ferraris, that would be like awesome dude.

Kinda cute how you dodged the entire issue of your negativity towards these schools being very insulting to all the people going there. You really didn't even think about it like that, did you?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Butters Stotch on May 09, 2007, 07:20:26 AM
I am interested actually.  Somebody I'm close to is in a T2 and has found a decent job, but it has been a rough road.  If lawyers were more in demand, being a lawyer would be a far more pleasant career choice for everyone involved.  Imagine...you could be in at a "T3" and still have any opportunity you were looking for!  Wouldn't that be a great thing for the whole profession?  More controls at the door, but the benefits would be huge for everyone! 

There are ample "controls at the door."  They are, collectively, referred to as the "forced curve."  It's the biggest scam going in law schools today, and it applies to pretty much ALL of them. 
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Qui Ju on May 09, 2007, 07:23:33 AM
Kinda cute how you dodged the entire issue of your negativity towards these schools being very insulting to all the people going there. You really didn't even think about it like that, did you?

is it possible to critique these schools without being insulting, in your opinion?  if so, how would you go about doing it?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 07:27:11 AM
Kinda cute how you dodged the entire issue of your negativity towards these schools being very insulting to all the people going there. You really didn't even think about it like that, did you?

is it possible to critique these schools without being insulting, in your opinion?  if so, how would you go about doing it?

You're not criticizing schools, you're criticizing the people who made the decision to go there. The board of directors of NYLS does not go to this forum, the students do. Your negativity has no effect what-so-ever on these schools, their only purpose served is to make people who chose this option bad, and more importantly, making you feel better about yourself because you got into a T1 school. It's pathetic, narcissistic and petty. 
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Butters Stotch on May 09, 2007, 07:28:43 AM
Kinda cute how you dodged the entire issue of your negativity towards these schools being very insulting to all the people going there. You really didn't even think about it like that, did you?

is it possible to critique these schools without being insulting, in your opinion?  if so, how would you go about doing it?

You're not criticizing schools, you're criticizing the people who made the decision to go there. The board of directors of NYLS does not go to this forum, the students do. Your negativity has no effect what-so-ever on these schools, their only purpose served is to make people who chose this option bad, and more importantly, making you feel better about yourself because you got into a T1 school. It's pathetic, narcissistic and petty

Hear, hear. 
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Qui Ju on May 09, 2007, 07:28:59 AM
Kinda cute how you dodged the entire issue of your negativity towards these schools being very insulting to all the people going there. You really didn't even think about it like that, did you?

is it possible to critique these schools without being insulting, in your opinion?  if so, how would you go about doing it?

You're not criticizing schools, you're criticizing the people who made the decision to go there. The board of directors of NYLS does not go to this forum, the students do. Your negativity has no effect what-so-ever on these schools, their only purpose served is to make people who chose this option bad, and more importantly, making you feel better about yourself because you got into a T1 school. It's pathetic, narcissistic and petty. 

i assume you're using "you" as "one" since i didn't actually say anything about either.  

but if you were going to critique the school and not the students, how would you go about doing it in an acceptable manner?  seriously, this might be helpful.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Reesespbcup on May 09, 2007, 07:31:10 AM
Kinda cute how you dodged the entire issue of your negativity towards these schools being very insulting to all the people going there. You really didn't even think about it like that, did you?

is it possible to critique these schools without being insulting, in your opinion?  if so, how would you go about doing it?

You're not criticizing schools, you're criticizing the people who made the decision to go there. The board of directors of NYLS does not go to this forum, the students do. Your negativity has no effect what-so-ever on these schools, their only purpose served is to make people who chose this option bad, and more importantly, making you feel better about yourself because you got into a T1 school. It's pathetic, narcissistic and petty. 

i assume you're using "you" as "one" since i didn't actually say anything about either.  

but if you were going to critique the school and not the students, how would you go about doing it in an acceptable manner?  seriously, this might be helpful.

OT
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Butters Stotch on May 09, 2007, 07:31:46 AM
Kinda cute how you dodged the entire issue of your negativity towards these schools being very insulting to all the people going there. You really didn't even think about it like that, did you?

is it possible to critique these schools without being insulting, in your opinion?  if so, how would you go about doing it?

You're not criticizing schools, you're criticizing the people who made the decision to go there. The board of directors of NYLS does not go to this forum, the students do. Your negativity has no effect what-so-ever on these schools, their only purpose served is to make people who chose this option bad, and more importantly, making you feel better about yourself because you got into a T1 school. It's pathetic, narcissistic and petty. 

i assume you're using "you" as "one" since i didn't actually say anything about either. 

but if you were going to critique the school and not the students, how would you go about doing it in an acceptable manner?  seriously, this might be helpful.

I would say that the first step would be to acquire some sort of actual, first-hand knowledge about the school in question, ie, something other than "what you heard," or, "what some guy said about it on a message board."
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Qui Ju on May 09, 2007, 07:33:59 AM
Kinda cute how you dodged the entire issue of your negativity towards these schools being very insulting to all the people going there. You really didn't even think about it like that, did you?

is it possible to critique these schools without being insulting, in your opinion?  if so, how would you go about doing it?

You're not criticizing schools, you're criticizing the people who made the decision to go there. The board of directors of NYLS does not go to this forum, the students do. Your negativity has no effect what-so-ever on these schools, their only purpose served is to make people who chose this option bad, and more importantly, making you feel better about yourself because you got into a T1 school. It's pathetic, narcissistic and petty. 

i assume you're using "you" as "one" since i didn't actually say anything about either. 

but if you were going to critique the school and not the students, how would you go about doing it in an acceptable manner?  seriously, this might be helpful.

I would say that the first step would be to acquire some sort of actual, first-hand knowledge about the school in question, ie, something other than "what you heard," or, "what some guy said about it on a message board."

what level of first-hand knowledge is requisite?  do you have to actually attend the school (in which case you're saying people who don't go to those schools can't critique them, which is a valid position but probably not the one you're taking)?  what if you have "a friend" that went there?  in that case it seems like you fall into the "what you heard" category, doesn't it?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 09, 2007, 07:35:23 AM
Quote
More controls at the door, but the benefits would be huge for everyone! 
Except for the general public in need of legal services who then would have to pay $1250 an hour instead of $350 an hour. But yeah, lawyers would have more Ferraris, that would be like awesome dude.

Kinda cute how you dodged the entire issue of your negativity towards these schools being very insulting to all the people going there. You really didn't even think about it like that, did you?

Sorry man... to address your point... it seemed way earlier in this thread that people believed that simply being a lawyer at T3/T4 would grant all sorts of great job opportunities.  My point has always been that many people applying to law (of all tiers) are plenty capable.  I haven't said that they aren't (or that T14's are arrogant lifeless SOB's like you have... you're going to love your classmates huh?)  But life is made more difficult because the system is flooded with law schools and too many seats.  That has affected the reputation of all lawyers (granted that's not the only reason why lawyers are looked down on) and made life more difficult for everyone... but disporportionately for people at the bottom.

I don't think this is negativity, it's simply being realistic.  Yes... you CAN make it from a T3/T4.  But it isn't very likely.  The way it works has made for an UNFAIR underclass of lawyers.  

Believe it or not, if you knew me, you would know I would be VERY HAPPY if opportunities were abound for people graduating from all law schools.  UNFORTUNATELY this isn't the case.  But you don't know me or my situation.  Which is as it will stay.

I hate how lawyers from non top tier schools are judged on the rank of their school at hiring time.  But the system has developed these stupid classifications because of a job market that is a total buyers market.  There is no demand for lawyers as a whole..... unfortunately the demand is all concentrated at the top.  That is NOT FAIR... I would hate swimming upstream like that after all that work.  Again, you don't know my sitation that I'm able to relate to that.

So bring on your insults KeNo.  
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Qui Ju on May 09, 2007, 07:36:43 AM
So bring on your insults KeNo.  

are the rest of us allowed to bring on our insults as well?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 07:37:17 AM
I wouldn't, for several reason. Every source I talk to in the legal business makes it pretty clear that future from these schools are nowhere near as bleak the anecdotal loser-stories makes it seem. No question, life from a tier3 is harder than life from Harvard, we all know that. But we also know that plenty of people graduating Harvard fucks up, and plenty of people graduating from NYLS becomes very successful. As I was told from a friend who is a BigLaw partner; if you cannot deal with the competition in law school, you certainly cannot deal with the competition in the business. And the theories that there are too many lawyers simply isn't true, there is plentiful legal work available, what there is too many of is lawyers looking for corporate BigLaw as the only option. Now, I will concede on one point; this is a result of schools being so expensive people are forced to prioritize pay checks over jobs. This is an unfortunate situation, and it somewhat applies to T3 schools like NYLS who charge $40k a year. But plenty of tier3 grads are able to complete their JD with little to no debt, and for those people - the ones that really want to be a lawyer, not chasing some pipe dream about being Alan Shore, they will probably be quite successful.


Yet again, the "problem" here isn't really that people are criticizing schools. The problem is that every single thread on this forum where people want to talk about T3/T4 schools become spammed to death with "TTT IS THE END OF THE LINE YOUR LIFE IS OVER" bull. It doesn't even matter if it's true or not. We've heard it before.

Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Butters Stotch on May 09, 2007, 07:38:02 AM
Kinda cute how you dodged the entire issue of your negativity towards these schools being very insulting to all the people going there. You really didn't even think about it like that, did you?

is it possible to critique these schools without being insulting, in your opinion?  if so, how would you go about doing it?

You're not criticizing schools, you're criticizing the people who made the decision to go there. The board of directors of NYLS does not go to this forum, the students do. Your negativity has no effect what-so-ever on these schools, their only purpose served is to make people who chose this option bad, and more importantly, making you feel better about yourself because you got into a T1 school. It's pathetic, narcissistic and petty. 

i assume you're using "you" as "one" since i didn't actually say anything about either. 

but if you were going to critique the school and not the students, how would you go about doing it in an acceptable manner?  seriously, this might be helpful.

I would say that the first step would be to acquire some sort of actual, first-hand knowledge about the school in question, ie, something other than "what you heard," or, "what some guy said about it on a message board."

what level of first-hand knowledge is requisite?  do you have to actually attend the school (in which case you're saying people who don't go to those schools can't critique them, which is a valid position but probably not the one you're taking)?  what if you have "a friend" that went there?  in that case it seems like you fall into the "what you heard" category, doesn't it?

Good points, all. 

First, I never said you "can't critique them."  Obviously, you are free to say whatever you want, about whomever you want, most of the time.

Second:  Obviously, if you have never even bothered to visit a school's Web site, then you have no "first-hand knowledge" about the school.  If you have a friend who attended the school, his opinion would qualify as "first-hand knowledge."  You repeating what your friend says about the school demonstrates "second-hand knowledge."

Does the absence of "first-hand knowledge" mean that you aren't "allowed" to critique a school?  Of course not.  It does, however, mean that you don't have a clue what the f*ck you're talking about when you do.

Does this make sense?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 09, 2007, 07:38:16 AM
If my only options were T3/T4, I probably would look elsewhere.  I hate bio though, so med school would probably not be an option.   ;D  So I guess to you, stating any problems with a system is just 'bitching' and shouldn't be addressed huh? 
Good for you, so please, get the @#!* out of T3-related threads then.

wait, aren't you going to NYU?


yeah.  but like me, he's tired of all the self-appointed experts with no real experience in this field who seem to think their LSAT scores translate into the right to disparage others.

i personally think that they were either picked on a lot as children; or they are simply afraid of the competition. 

legal writing is legal writing, whether you go to harvard or cooley.  judges across the board repeatedly state that this is the number one problem in the practice of law, regardless of the name on the degree.  court clerks don't give a damn if you're a michigan grad, they will deny your filing in a minute if it doesn't conform to court rules.

advocacy skills are also the same, regardless of school.  research skills are the same.

i can't speak for traditional students, but i've been doing writing and public speaking for 25 years.  i was in 2/131 of legal writing and the top oral argument.

i look forward to meeting any of you in court. especially if you think that the name of your school guarantees you an automatic win.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 09, 2007, 07:38:39 AM
No, only KeNo.  He is the sensei of insults.     :P

j/k... if you are so inclined, go ahead!    :'(
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: grlykoolblah on May 09, 2007, 07:41:06 AM
Just a thought, I think if another "Bush" is elected, even big law w/have to hire Regent grads.  Then what happens?  :-*
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Butters Stotch on May 09, 2007, 07:42:11 AM
I don't think this is negativity, it's simply being realistic.  Yes... you CAN make it from a T3/T4.  But it isn't very likely.  The way it works has made for an UNFAIR underclass of lawyers.

I would like to see what (if any) evidence you have to base such a statement upon.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Qui Ju on May 09, 2007, 07:42:23 AM
Kinda cute how you dodged the entire issue of your negativity towards these schools being very insulting to all the people going there. You really didn't even think about it like that, did you?

is it possible to critique these schools without being insulting, in your opinion?  if so, how would you go about doing it?

You're not criticizing schools, you're criticizing the people who made the decision to go there. The board of directors of NYLS does not go to this forum, the students do. Your negativity has no effect what-so-ever on these schools, their only purpose served is to make people who chose this option bad, and more importantly, making you feel better about yourself because you got into a T1 school. It's pathetic, narcissistic and petty. 

i assume you're using "you" as "one" since i didn't actually say anything about either. 

but if you were going to critique the school and not the students, how would you go about doing it in an acceptable manner?  seriously, this might be helpful.

I would say that the first step would be to acquire some sort of actual, first-hand knowledge about the school in question, ie, something other than "what you heard," or, "what some guy said about it on a message board."

what level of first-hand knowledge is requisite?  do you have to actually attend the school (in which case you're saying people who don't go to those schools can't critique them, which is a valid position but probably not the one you're taking)?  what if you have "a friend" that went there?  in that case it seems like you fall into the "what you heard" category, doesn't it?

Good points, all. 

First, I never said you "can't critique them."  Obviously, you are free to say whatever you want, about whomever you want, most of the time.

Second:  Obviously, if you have never even bothered to visit a school's Web site, then you have no "first-hand knowledge" about the school.  If you have a friend who attended the school, his opinion would qualify as "first-hand knowledge."  You repeating what your friend says about the school demonstrates "second-hand knowledge."

Does the absence of "first-hand knowledge" mean that you aren't "allowed" to critique a school?  Of course not.  It does, however, mean that you don't have a clue what the f*ck you're talking about when you do.

Does this make sense?

it makes some sense.  i was just trying to get a gage for how much knowledge you wanted before people started criticizing.  doesn't seem you're holding the bar too high, which is probably a good thing.

If my only options were T3/T4, I probably would look elsewhere.  I hate bio though, so med school would probably not be an option.   ;D  So I guess to you, stating any problems with a system is just 'bitching' and shouldn't be addressed huh? 
Good for you, so please, get the @#!* out of T3-related threads then.

wait, aren't you going to NYU?


yeah.  but like me, he's tired of all the self-appointed experts with no real experience in this field who seem to think their LSAT scores translate into the right to disparage others.

i personally think that they were either picked on a lot as children; or they are simply afraid of the competition. 

legal writing is legal writing, whether you go to harvard or cooley.  judges across the board repeatedly state that this is the number one problem in the practice of law, regardless of the name on the degree.  court clerks don't give a damn if you're a michigan grad, they will deny your filing in a minute if it doesn't conform to court rules.

advocacy skills are also the same, regardless of school.  research skills are the same.

i can't speak for traditional students, but i've been doing writing and public speaking for 25 years.  i was in 2/131 of legal writing and the top oral argument.

i look forward to meeting any of you in court. especially if you think that the name of your school guarantees you an automatic win.

well you know this board is FULL of self-appointed experts.  :D

Just a thought, I think if another "Bush" is elected, even big law w/have to hire Regent grads.  Then what happens?  :-*

i don't even know how to respond to this.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Goodfella on May 09, 2007, 07:43:12 AM
If my only options were T3/T4, I probably would look elsewhere.  I hate bio though, so med school would probably not be an option.   ;D  So I guess to you, stating any problems with a system is just 'bitching' and shouldn't be addressed huh? 
Good for you, so please, get the @#!* out of T3-related threads then.

wait, aren't you going to NYU?


yeah.  but like me, he's tired of all the self-appointed experts with no real experience in this field who seem to think their LSAT scores translate into the right to disparage others.

i personally think that they were either picked on a lot as children; or they are simply afraid of the competition. 

legal writing is legal writing, whether you go to harvard or cooley.  judges across the board repeatedly state that this is the number one problem in the practice of law, regardless of the name on the degree.  court clerks don't give a damn if you're a michigan grad, they will deny your filing in a minute if it doesn't conform to court rules.

advocacy skills are also the same, regardless of school.  research skills are the same.

i can't speak for traditional students, but i've been doing writing and public speaking for 25 years.  i was in 2/131 of legal writing and the top oral argument.

i look forward to meeting any of you in court. especially if you think that the name of your school guarantees you an automatic win.


Oh yeah, well I can do 30 pushups in 2 minutes!

In all seriousness, you better be patient. Most of us won't see the inside of a courtroom for a while. But I'll doc review your ass into oblivion!
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Qui Ju on May 09, 2007, 07:44:19 AM
I don't think this is negativity, it's simply being realistic.  Yes... you CAN make it from a T3/T4.  But it isn't very likely.  The way it works has made for an UNFAIR underclass of lawyers.

I would like to see what (if any) evidence you have to base such a statement upon.

well, depends on how healthy an idea of "making it" you have.

if making it means getting a big firm job in ny, dc, etc, then chances are slimmer at a lower tiered school.  i won't bother citing the relevant stats, but i don't think anyone disputes this.

if "making it" means something else, well.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Qui Ju on May 09, 2007, 07:45:05 AM
Oh yeah, well I can do 30 pushups in 2 minutes!

In all seriousness, you better be patient. Most of us won't see the inside of a courtroom for a while. But I'll doc review your ass into oblivion!

stop making fun of him for being old, decrepit.

and are you hitting on him?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 07:45:44 AM
Sorry man... to address your point... it seemed way earlier in this thread that people believed that simply being a lawyer at T3/T4 would grant all sorts of great job opportunities.
I think 99% of the people who go to a T3 school knows they're not going to be on equal standing with Yale grads. That being said, the most selective law firm in the country, Wachtell, have T3 grads working there. So it's not the end of the line for your career either.

Quote
you're going to love your classmates huh?
I expect that I will like some, dislike others and for the majority of them, I just won't give a *&^%. I'm fine with that, I never made it a point to win any popularity contests.


Quote
Believe it or not, if you knew me, you would know I would be VERY HAPPY if opportunities were abound for people graduating from all law schools.  UNFORTUNATELY this isn't the case.  But you don't know me or my situation.  Which is as it will stay.
Why would you want incompetent people to succeed? For me, that even applies to the top schools. Harvard will graduate several lawyers who will get very good jobs, and still be incompetent at their work. Truth is, these people will probably vanish out of the law business within a few years as well. What does your situation have to do with anything tbh? :)

Quote
I hate how lawyers from non top tier schools are judged on the rank of their school at hiring time.
Yet, you're one of the most frequent ranking trolls on this forum. How the hell did that work out?


Quote
But the system has developed these stupid classifications because of a job market that is a total buyers market.  There is no demand for lawyers as a whole.....
Actually, there is. Lawyers on the whole is in demand, what is not in demand is moneygrabbing whores looking for corporate BigLaw. Which is what you, and most other prestige-monkeys, define a "a job". As stated before, this is somewhat understandable because of the price of law school.

Quote
I would hate swimming upstream like that after all that work.  Again, you don't know my sitation that I'm able to relate to that.
Not the point, again. Whether you would want to or not doesn't matter. Your continuous efforts to talk down on these schools do nothing but insult the people who did chose that route. Who are you to judge?

Quote
So bring on your insults KeNo. 
I generally have no need to insult anyone, nor do I think I frequently do.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Butters Stotch on May 09, 2007, 07:46:32 AM
it makes some sense.  i was just trying to get a gage for how much knowledge you wanted before people started criticizing.  doesn't seem you're holding the bar too high, which is probably a good thing.

As for how much knowledge I "want" before someone starts to criticize a particular school, well, let's just say that what we sometimes "want" and what we actually "get" are often polar opposites. 

Again, you are obviously free to criticize/critique/offer your opinion as Gospel on, well, pretty much any matter you choose.  Conversely, others are just as free to point out your ignorance in doing so.

Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 09, 2007, 07:48:25 AM
If my only options were T3/T4, I probably would look elsewhere.  I hate bio though, so med school would probably not be an option.   ;D  So I guess to you, stating any problems with a system is just 'bitching' and shouldn't be addressed huh? 
Good for you, so please, get the @#!* out of T3-related threads then.

wait, aren't you going to NYU?


yeah.  but like me, he's tired of all the self-appointed experts with no real experience in this field who seem to think their LSAT scores translate into the right to disparage others.

i personally think that they were either picked on a lot as children; or they are simply afraid of the competition. 

legal writing is legal writing, whether you go to harvard or cooley.  judges across the board repeatedly state that this is the number one problem in the practice of law, regardless of the name on the degree.  court clerks don't give a damn if you're a michigan grad, they will deny your filing in a minute if it doesn't conform to court rules.

advocacy skills are also the same, regardless of school.  research skills are the same.

i can't speak for traditional students, but i've been doing writing and public speaking for 25 years.  i was in 2/131 of legal writing and the top oral argument.

i look forward to meeting any of you in court. especially if you think that the name of your school guarantees you an automatic win.


Oh yeah, well I can do 30 pushups in 2 minutes!

In all seriousness, you better be patient. Most of us won't see the inside of a courtroom for a while. But I'll doc review your ass into oblivion!


i'm already in court.  by the end of next semester i will be rule 15 certified and representing clients on my own.

no, i dont have a glamorous biglaw clerkship.  i work with poor people.  but i'm getting what biglaw clerks aren't going to get -- real-life litigation experience.  a lot of it.

i've done doc review  :P and that's not worth a big paycheck for me.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Butters Stotch on May 09, 2007, 07:49:16 AM
I don't think this is negativity, it's simply being realistic.  Yes... you CAN make it from a T3/T4.  But it isn't very likely.  The way it works has made for an UNFAIR underclass of lawyers.

I would like to see what (if any) evidence you have to base such a statement upon.

well, depends on how healthy an idea of "making it" you have.

if making it means getting a big firm job in ny, dc, etc, then chances are slimmer at a lower tiered school.  i won't bother citing the relevant stats, but i don't think anyone disputes this.

if "making it" means something else, well.

Indeed.  The entire conversation turns on this person's definition of "making it," I suppose.

That said, I would argue that the definition of "making it" as "being a part of a BIGLAW factory" is a minority opinion, prestige-whores on LSD notwithstanding.

Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 09, 2007, 07:49:30 AM
If my only options were T3/T4, I probably would look elsewhere.  I hate bio though, so med school would probably not be an option.   ;D  So I guess to you, stating any problems with a system is just 'bitching' and shouldn't be addressed huh? 
Good for you, so please, get the @#!* out of T3-related threads then.

wait, aren't you going to NYU?


yeah.  but like me, he's tired of all the self-appointed experts with no real experience in this field who seem to think their LSAT scores translate into the right to disparage others.

i personally think that they were either picked on a lot as children; or they are simply afraid of the competition. 

legal writing is legal writing, whether you go to harvard or cooley.  judges across the board repeatedly state that this is the number one problem in the practice of law, regardless of the name on the degree.  court clerks don't give a damn if you're a michigan grad, they will deny your filing in a minute if it doesn't conform to court rules.

advocacy skills are also the same, regardless of school.  research skills are the same.

i can't speak for traditional students, but i've been doing writing and public speaking for 25 years.  i was in 2/131 of legal writing and the top oral argument.

i look forward to meeting any of you in court. especially if you think that the name of your school guarantees you an automatic win.


Oh yeah, well I can do 30 pushups in 2 minutes!

In all seriousness, you better be patient. Most of us won't see the inside of a courtroom for a while. But I'll doc review your ass into oblivion!

STOP INSULTING THOSE OF US WHO CAN'T DO 30 PUSHUPS YOU ARROGANT..... FEMALE PRIVATE PART!!!

 ;D

Ummm, in all seriousness, the statistics on hiring are everywhere.  I've stated some, and I really don't want to go to the trouble of doing it again.  You can look back a few pages on this thread.  BTW, when looking at the 9 month figures, take into consideration that the higher you go, the fewer people are studying for the bar or going back to grad school 9 months later.  Those statistics could be because people in T3/T4 are just far more scholarly and take far more care in studying 9 months for the bar, but I'm looking for an alterate explanation.

I have taken great care not to insult any person.  The system however is something else.  The system is a problem, and we should think about how it can be fixed.  Unless of course you think the system is perfect.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 09, 2007, 07:51:41 AM
This was such a good post. A few numbers cut through all the bull.

Creighton
-------------
Graduates known to be employed at graduation: 74.7%
Median in the private sector: $65,000
Percent in the private sector who reported salary information: 75%
Median in public service: $43,000

U Ark. LR
--------------
Graduates known to be employed at graduation: N/A
Private sector (25th-75th percentile): $38,000 - $55,000
Median in the private sector: $47,750 lol
Percent in the private sector who reported salary information: 67%
Median in public service: $40,000

Hamline
---------------
Graduates known to be employed at graduation: 46.2%
Median in the private sector: $47,000
Percent in the private sector who reported salary information: 75%
Median in public service: $41,000

For comparison here are George Mason's stats (a bad tier 1 school.)
--------------
Graduates known to be employed at graduation: 96.5%
Median in the private sector: $101,250 (the market says thsi degree is worth twice your degree and their tuition is only $11,000 per year)
Percent in the private sector who reported salary information: 64%
Median in public service: $52,468

Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Butters Stotch on May 09, 2007, 07:52:52 AM
You should reference "pwnage" a few more times.  It really enhances your credibility.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 09, 2007, 07:53:10 AM
i dont think ap has been insulting.  he is passionately defending his views, and while i don't agree with him, i don't think he's been an ass about it.

wii, on the other hand, is a male private part, and i'd happily kick his ass.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 07:53:26 AM
I don't think being elitist about it will solve anything.

You do see the correlation between supply and demand of lawyers with the supply and demand of legal fees right? If you, say removed all law schools below the top 100 (almost cutting it in half), there would be a huge inflation the the hourly cost of legal services? Most private citizens today can't afford to hire a Cravath lawyer for their personal legal issues, mainly millionaires and corporate clients can. When that fee is tripled, and the "TTT lawyers" suddenly no longer exist (because the TTT schools are gone, we're just left with BigLaw firms now - exaggeration yes), the average Joe (and believe it or not, unless your last name is Buffett, you're an average Joe by American standards) no longer will have even a remote chance at defending themselves in the judicial system.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 09, 2007, 07:53:41 AM
You should reference "pwnage" a few more times.  It really enhances your credibility.

Just out of curiousity, do people actually say "pwnage", or is it something that's just written?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Qui Ju on May 09, 2007, 07:54:19 AM
That said, I would argue that the definition of "making it" as "being a part of a BIGLAW factory" is a minority opinion, prestige-whores on LSD notwithstanding.

i don't know why you're so negative on biglaw and status-seeking.  i mean, those are just things that some people want.  are their preferences less legitimate than yours?

I don't think being elitist about it will solve anything.

but elitism is the solution to ALL of life's problems!

wait, that's alcohol.  nevermind.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 07:55:21 AM
You should reference "pwnage" a few more times.  It really enhances your credibility.

Just out of curiousity, do people actually say "pwnage", or is it something that's just written?

I've heard 9 out of 10 judges considers it justifiable to stab people who say "pwnage", "lol" or other internet-related acronyms in real life.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Butters Stotch on May 09, 2007, 07:55:32 AM
You should reference "pwnage" a few more times.  It really enhances your credibility.

Just out of curiousity, do people actually say "pwnage", or is it something that's just written?

I've heard it pronounced "OWN-age," and I've also heard, "PAWN-age."  I have no idea which is "correct."  I'm guessing neither, at least for the purposes of intelligent, adult conversation.   ;D
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Butters Stotch on May 09, 2007, 07:59:16 AM
That said, I would argue that the definition of "making it" as "being a part of a BIGLAW factory" is a minority opinion, prestige-whores on LSD notwithstanding.

i don't know why you're so negative on biglaw and status-seeking.  i mean, those are just things that some people want.  are their preferences less legitimate than yours?

Hey, I'm not saying that BIGLAW isn't a valid goal for some aspiring attorneys.  What I am saying (without any evidence to back it up, take that!) is that most attorneys/aspiring attorneys do not use their position in BIGLAW (or lack thereof) as "the" ruler by which to measure their success & their penises.

To each his own, obviously. 
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Tony Montana on May 09, 2007, 08:01:23 AM
I wouldn't, for several reason. Every source I talk to in the legal business makes it pretty clear that future from these schools are nowhere near as bleak the anecdotal loser-stories makes it seem. No question, life from a tier3 is harder than life from Harvard, we all know that. But we also know that plenty of people graduating Harvard fucks up, and plenty of people graduating from NYLS becomes very successful. As I was told from a friend who is a BigLaw partner; if you cannot deal with the competition in law school, you certainly cannot deal with the competition in the business. And the theories that there are too many lawyers simply isn't true, there is plentiful legal work available, what there is too many of is lawyers looking for corporate BigLaw as the only option. Now, I will concede on one point; this is a result of schools being so expensive people are forced to prioritize pay checks over jobs. This is an unfortunate situation, and it somewhat applies to T3 schools like NYLS who charge $40k a year. But plenty of tier3 grads are able to complete their JD with little to no debt, and for those people - the ones that really want to be a lawyer, not chasing some pipe dream about being Alan Shore, they will probably be quite successful.


Yet again, the "problem" here isn't really that people are criticizing schools. The problem is that every single thread on this forum where people want to talk about T3/T4 schools become spammed to death with "TTT IS THE END OF THE LINE YOUR LIFE IS OVER" bull. It doesn't even matter if it's true or not. We've heard it before.



Like that Harvard grad called Alberto "I don't recall" Gonzales.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Qui Ju on May 09, 2007, 08:01:37 AM
That said, I would argue that the definition of "making it" as "being a part of a BIGLAW factory" is a minority opinion, prestige-whores on LSD notwithstanding.

i don't know why you're so negative on biglaw and status-seeking.  i mean, those are just things that some people want.  are their preferences less legitimate than yours?

Hey, I'm not saying that BIGLAW isn't a valid goal for some aspiring attorneys.  What I am saying (without any evidence to back it up, take that!) is that most attorneys/aspiring attorneys do not use their position in BIGLAW (or lack thereof) as a ruler with which to measure their success & their penises.

To each his own, obviously. 

well there were some subtle implications there.  "factory" and "whores" come to mind.  ;)
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 08:04:30 AM
i don't know why you're so negative on biglaw and status-seeking.  i mean, those are just things that some people want.  are their preferences less legitimate than yours?

Actually, I do. Out of 100 people going into Big Law, you're going to have 90 people who went there for big paychecks, and 10 people that went there because they wanted the Big Law career. Out of those 90 people, a lot will crash and burn, simply because the paycheck isn't worth the time, the sacrifices, the humiliation and the isolation this job brings with it. If you wanted to be a lawyer, Big Law isn't where you should be going. If you want to be a highly paid, extremely specialized secretary or type-writer in Armani suits and Ferragamo ties, it's a good choice. But becoming a lawyer in its right meaning in Big Law takes many years, arguably not before you're into partnership. Most of these people would be much happier going into a smaller-sized firm and actually get trained to be a lawyer. But I digress.

Quote
Like that Harvard grad called Alberto "I don't recall" Gonzales.
Not quite the same type of f-ing up I was thinking of, but sure ;)
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Butters Stotch on May 09, 2007, 08:04:44 AM
That said, I would argue that the definition of "making it" as "being a part of a BIGLAW factory" is a minority opinion, prestige-whores on LSD notwithstanding.

i don't know why you're so negative on biglaw and status-seeking.  i mean, those are just things that some people want.  are their preferences less legitimate than yours?

Hey, I'm not saying that BIGLAW isn't a valid goal for some aspiring attorneys.  What I am saying (without any evidence to back it up, take that!) is that most attorneys/aspiring attorneys do not use their position in BIGLAW (or lack thereof) as a ruler with which to measure their success & their penises.

To each his own, obviously. 

well there were some subtle implications there.  "factory" and "whores" come to mind.  ;)

LOL touche.

I picked up both on this very site, actually. 

I know people who have worked in NY BIGLAW, however, and the universal sentiment expressed by them has been along the lines of "factory."  Lots of money, yes, but that stellar income is tempered by long hours, tedious, thankless work, and burnout (which explains why those firms have to recruit so aggressively each year).  The turnover is unbelievable given the salaries.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Qui Ju on May 09, 2007, 08:06:38 AM
i don't know why you're so negative on biglaw and status-seeking.  i mean, those are just things that some people want.  are their preferences less legitimate than yours?

Actually, I do. Out of 100 people going into Big Law, you're going to have 90 people who went there for big paychecks, and 10 people that went there because they wanted the Big Law career. Out of those 90 people, a lot will crash and burn, simply because the paycheck isn't worth the time, the sacrifices, the humiliation and the isolation this job brings with it. If you wanted to be a lawyer, Big Law isn't where you should be going. If you want to be a highly paid, extremely specialized secretary or type-writer in Armani suits and Ferragamo ties, it's a good choice. But becoming a lawyer in its right meaning in Big Law takes many years, arguably not before you're into partnership. Most of these people would be much happier going into a smaller-sized firm and actually get trained to be a lawyer. But I digress.

Quote
Like that Harvard grad called Alberto "I don't recall" Gonzales.
Not quite the same type of f-ing up I was thinking of, but sure ;)

cite?  ;)

That said, I would argue that the definition of "making it" as "being a part of a BIGLAW factory" is a minority opinion, prestige-whores on LSD notwithstanding.

i don't know why you're so negative on biglaw and status-seeking.  i mean, those are just things that some people want.  are their preferences less legitimate than yours?

Hey, I'm not saying that BIGLAW isn't a valid goal for some aspiring attorneys.  What I am saying (without any evidence to back it up, take that!) is that most attorneys/aspiring attorneys do not use their position in BIGLAW (or lack thereof) as a ruler with which to measure their success & their penises.

To each his own, obviously. 

well there were some subtle implications there.  "factory" and "whores" come to mind.  ;)

LOL touche.

I picked up both on this very site, actually. 

I know people who have worked in NY BIGLAW, however, and the universal sentiment expressed by them has been along the lines of "factory."  Lots of money, yes, but that stellar income is tempered by long hours, tedious, thankless work, and burnout (which explains why those firms have to recruit so aggressively each year).  The turnover is unbelievable given the salaries.

well to be fair, your impressions are second-hand, in your terms.  i just want some equity here.  :D
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: grlykoolblah on May 09, 2007, 08:07:29 AM
Just a thought.

The divorce court judge (on t.v.) has a Harvard u-grad and a JD from UPenn.  http://www.divorcecourt.com/inside.asp?category_id=50
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 08:07:43 AM
I know people who have worked in NY BIGLAW, however, and the universal sentiment expressed by them has been along the lines of "factory."  Lots of money, yes, but that stellar income is tempered by long hours, tedious, thankless work, and burnout (which explains why those firms have to recruit so aggressively each year).  The turnover is unbelievable given the salaries.

Extremely valid points most people don't think of. I've been told from very reliable sources that in a specific NYC Big Law firm, approximately 5% of the first year associates (that's lower than the class rank you need to get a big law job from Tier 3 schools, you trolls!) will actually make it to partner.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 09, 2007, 08:10:03 AM
I've heard 9 out of 10 judges considers it justifiable to stab people who say "pwnage", "lol" or other internet-related acronyms in real life.

About as credible as anything else that comes out of your 3.0 156 mouth. 
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 08:11:28 AM
I've heard 9 out of 10 judges considers it justifiable to stab people who say "pwnage", "lol" or other internet-related acronyms in real life.

About as credible as anything else that comes out of your 3.0 156 mouth.

No, you made me cry :(

You know, at least possum and the others are at least showing some intelligence and point in their posts. You're just a ball-less fuckwit who got afraid of posting on xoxo, so you decided to take a stab here instead. Grow a pair, and get a life.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 09, 2007, 08:12:20 AM
You like to make up statistics. Too bad you couldn't make up your GPA and LSAT.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Butters Stotch on May 09, 2007, 08:12:36 AM
PWNAGE

(http://www.geekdroppings.com/images/kfm_pwned.jpg)
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 09, 2007, 08:12:43 AM
I've heard 9 out of 10 judges considers it justifiable to stab people who say "pwnage", "lol" or other internet-related acronyms in real life.

About as credible as anything else that comes out of your 3.0 156 mouth. 

Man, when this guy starts with the insults, I always get hit by the crossfire.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Tony Montana on May 09, 2007, 08:13:06 AM

Quote
Like that Harvard grad called Alberto "I don't recall" Gonzales.
Not quite the same type of f-ing up I was thinking of, but sure ;)

It applies in an indirect way--if you think about it...
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 08:14:07 AM
You like to make up statistics. Too bad you couldn't make your GPA and LSAT.

Why is that too bad? I got in to my #1 school, I fail to see what's bad about that?

How about you?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Qui Ju on May 09, 2007, 08:15:09 AM
You like to make up statistics. Too bad you couldn't make your GPA and LSAT.

Why is that too bad? I got in to my #1 school, I fail to see what's bad about that?

How about you?

well to be fair, you're not going to yale, which makes you a failure in life just like the rest of us non-yalies.  :(
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: ptown on May 09, 2007, 08:15:45 AM


i don't know why you're so negative on biglaw and status-seeking.  i mean, those are just things that some people want.  are their preferences less legitimate than yours?



It would seem that most people are of the opinoin that if this is not your preference, it is less legitimate than if Biglaw is your preference.

I am going to a t2 with a scholarship and my GOAL is to make 55k out of school for the Army.  I can't come to grips with why people feel the need to dispariage this type of goal or that of working in a small city over Biglaw aspirations.



Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 08:17:06 AM
well to be fair, you're not going to yale, which makes you a failure in life just like the rest of us non-yalies.  :(

Hehe, fair enough :p That being said, I've never been interested in academia or clerkships, so the only school I arguably would have chosen over NYU would be CLS, and I'm far from sure I'd have preferred Columbia.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Butters Stotch on May 09, 2007, 08:17:27 AM
You like to make up statistics. Too bad you couldn't make your GPA and LSAT.

Why is that too bad? I got in to my #1 school, I fail to see what's bad about that?

How about you?

The University of Nintendo let him in, so you obviously lose.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 09, 2007, 08:17:32 AM
I am going to a t2 with a scholarship and my GOAL is to make 55k out of school for the Army.

At least your goals are realistic.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 09, 2007, 08:18:04 AM
Actually not me.  I was simply too scared to apply to Yale.  Actually that's not true.  I was too lazy to write their extra 250 word essay.  However, I did not get into my top choice.... Harvard wasn't even considerate enough to string me along for a few months on their waitlist.


Of course I was smart about it.... Michigan is my new top choice.   So yes, I did get into my top choice!   :o
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 09, 2007, 08:20:45 AM
Actually not me.  I was simply too scared to apply to Yale.  Actually that's not true.  I was too lazy to write their extra 250 word essay.  However, I did not get into my top choice.... Harvard wasn't even considerate enough to string me along for a few months on their waitlist.


Of course I was smart about it.... Michigan is my new top choice.   So yes, I did get into my top choice!   :o

The employment prospects out of UM & H are basically the same.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Tony Montana on May 09, 2007, 08:22:13 AM


i don't know why you're so negative on biglaw and status-seeking.  i mean, those are just things that some people want.  are their preferences less legitimate than yours?



It would seem that most people are of the opinoin that if this is not your preference, it is less legitimate than if Biglaw is your preference.

I am going to a t2 with a scholarship and my GOAL is to make 55k out of school for the Army.  I can't come to grips with why people feel the need to dispariage this type of goal or that of working in a small city over Biglaw aspirations.




You have to be an elitist prick to understand the reasoning behind the bs.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Qui Ju on May 09, 2007, 08:24:19 AM
well to be fair, you're not going to yale, which makes you a failure in life just like the rest of us non-yalies.  :(

Hehe, fair enough :p That being said, I've never been interested in academia or clerkships, so the only school I arguably would have chosen over NYU would be CLS, and I'm far from sure I'd have preferred Columbia.

damned nyu trolls.



i don't know why you're so negative on biglaw and status-seeking.  i mean, those are just things that some people want.  are their preferences less legitimate than yours?



It would seem that most people are of the opinoin that if this is not your preference, it is less legitimate than if Biglaw is your preference.

I am going to a t2 with a scholarship and my GOAL is to make 55k out of school for the Army.  I can't come to grips with why people feel the need to dispariage this type of goal or that of working in a small city over Biglaw aspirations.




You have to be an elitist prick to understand the reasoning behind the bs.

does one have to be elitist AND a prick or can one just be an elitist?  or are you saying that all elitists are pricks?  if you are, elitist prick is rather redundant, don't you think?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Tony Montana on May 09, 2007, 08:30:51 AM
Lol... The redundancy was used as a rhetorical device...Way to stay on top of it though... :D 

Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: ptown on May 09, 2007, 08:37:49 AM
I am going to a t2 with a scholarship and my GOAL is to make 55k out of school for the Army.

At least your goals are realistic.

I hardly think that JAG corps is a poor goal for underachievers.  There are plenty of t14 grads that are commissioned as well. Unfortunately for prestige whores, the military doesn't pander to the USNWR rankings.

Why would I go to a t1 with more debt to make 55k out of school?  Even if I didn't go military I will want to live in a small midwestern city anyway where there just is no advantage.

People have many reasons for going to lower ranked schools, not just that they can't get in.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Qui Ju on May 09, 2007, 08:39:31 AM
I am going to a t2 with a scholarship and my GOAL is to make 55k out of school for the Army.

At least your goals are realistic.

I hardly think that JAG corps is a poor goal for underachievers.  There are plenty of t14 grads that are commissioned as well. Unfortunately for prestige whores, the military doesn't pander to the USNWR rankings.

Why would I go to a t1 with more debt to make 55k out of school?  Even if I didn't go military I will want to live in a small midwestern city anyway where there just is no advantage.

People have many reasons for going to lower ranked schools, not just that they can't get in.

i'm confused.  who said it was a poor goal?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 09, 2007, 08:41:54 AM
I hardly think that JAG corps is a poor goal for underachievers.  

All I said was you're being realistic. Like a Georgetown student who expects a $160,000 biglaw job.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Qui Ju on May 09, 2007, 08:42:19 AM
I hardly think that JAG corps is a poor goal for underachievers.  

All I said was you're being realistic. Like a Georgetown student who expects a $160,000 biglaw job.

they expect this?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 08:42:58 AM
Well, you need a somewhat decent rank at Georgetown to land a $160k job actually. Sorry to burst your bubble :)
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: ptown on May 09, 2007, 08:44:37 AM
I am going to a t2 with a scholarship and my GOAL is to make 55k out of school for the Army.

At least your goals are realistic.

I hardly think that JAG corps is a poor goal for underachievers.  There are plenty of t14 grads that are commissioned as well. Unfortunately for prestige whores, the military doesn't pander to the USNWR rankings.

Why would I go to a t1 with more debt to make 55k out of school?  Even if I didn't go military I will want to live in a small midwestern city anyway where there just is no advantage.

People have many reasons for going to lower ranked schools, not just that they can't get in.

i'm confused.  who said it was a poor goal?

The implication as I understood it is that in going to a t2 school the highest goal I should have is making 55k for the govt, and thus relatively compared to a 160k biglaw job, it is inferior.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Reesespbcup on May 09, 2007, 08:46:57 AM
Could someone please tell me whether this thread applies to T2 as well? I need to know whether I should be insulted reading this  :D
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 08:47:25 AM
This thread stopped applied to anything about 15 pages ago.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 09, 2007, 08:48:22 AM
Well, you need a somewhat decent rank at Georgetown to land a $160k job actually. Sorry to burst your bubble :)

Georgetown's stats.

Private sector (25th-75th percentile): $125,000 - $125,000 (this is from 2005. before the biglaw pay raises.)
Median in the private sector: $125,000
Percent in the private sector who reported salary information: 91%
Median in public service: $50,541

HTH 3.0 156.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Reesespbcup on May 09, 2007, 08:48:42 AM
This thread stopped applied to anything about 15 pages ago.


>:(
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: ptown on May 09, 2007, 08:49:41 AM
Could someone please tell me whether this thread applies to T2 as well? I need to know whether I should be insulted reading this  :D

In my experience, people do lump the t2 in with t3/4.

You can look through the thread and see that at least wiimote has referenced them as being in the same boat.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Qui Ju on May 09, 2007, 08:49:46 AM
I am going to a t2 with a scholarship and my GOAL is to make 55k out of school for the Army.

At least your goals are realistic.

I hardly think that JAG corps is a poor goal for underachievers.  There are plenty of t14 grads that are commissioned as well. Unfortunately for prestige whores, the military doesn't pander to the USNWR rankings.

Why would I go to a t1 with more debt to make 55k out of school?  Even if I didn't go military I will want to live in a small midwestern city anyway where there just is no advantage.

People have many reasons for going to lower ranked schools, not just that they can't get in.

i'm confused.  who said it was a poor goal?

The implication as I understood it is that in going to a t2 school the highest goal I should have is making 55k for the govt, and thus relatively compared to a 160k biglaw job, it is inferior.

really?  i read it as, "you're going to a t2 school and your target is the JAG corps?  you've got a good shot at that.  at least you're not saying that you've got just as good a shot at biglaw as people at yale or something like that."

i might have misread.

Well, you need a somewhat decent rank at Georgetown to land a $160k job actually. Sorry to burst your bubble :)

Georgetown's stats.

Private sector (25th-75th percentile): $125,000 - $125,000
Median in the private sector: $125,000
Percent in the private sector who reported salary information: 91%
Median in public service: $50,541

HTH 3.0 156.

huh.  i didn't think the big firms went that deep into georgetown.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 09, 2007, 08:50:13 AM
Could someone please tell me whether this thread applies to T2 as well? I need to know whether I should be insulted reading this  :D

It does. There is little difference in career prospects between the two.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: ptown on May 09, 2007, 08:51:37 AM
Quote
really?  i read it as, "you're going to a t2 school and your target is the JAG corps?  you've got a good shot at that.  at least you're not saying that you've got just as good a shot at biglaw as people at yale or something like that."

i might have misread.


I inferred the negative implications from past posts of wiimote.  It was not explicitly stated, and I may have been wrong.

Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Reesespbcup on May 09, 2007, 08:52:21 AM
Could someone please tell me whether this thread applies to T2 as well? I need to know whether I should be insulted reading this  :D

It does. There is little difference in career prospects between the two.

So, I should chose the T4 state school over the T2 which dominates in the geographic region where I want to practice? (Both are in the same market)
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 09, 2007, 08:52:35 AM
huh.  i didn't think the big firms went that deep into georgetown.

This is the problem with this whole thread. "I think" =/= "what actually happens."
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Qui Ju on May 09, 2007, 08:53:00 AM
I inferred the negative implications from past posts of wiimote.  It was not explicitly stated, and I may have been wrong.



i've never seen him before.  is he entertaining?

huh.  i didn't think the big firms went that deep into georgetown.

This is the problem with this whole thread. "I think" =/= "what actually happens."

okay but what about not thinking, which is what i did?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 09, 2007, 08:53:36 AM
Could someone please tell me whether this thread applies to T2 as well? I need to know whether I should be insulted reading this  :D

It does. There is little difference in career prospects between the two.

So, I should chose the T4 state school over the T2 which dominates in the geographic region where I want to practice? (Both are in the same market)

If the tier3 gives you money, then yes.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 09, 2007, 08:55:13 AM
This was so good I'm posting it again.

Georgetown's stats.

Private sector (25th-75th percentile): $125,000 - $125,000 (this is from 2005. before the biglaw pay raises.)
Median in the private sector: $125,000
Percent in the private sector who reported salary information: 91%
Median in public service: $50,541

HTH 3.0 156.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: ptown on May 09, 2007, 08:55:36 AM
I inferred the negative implications from past posts of wiimote.  It was not explicitly stated, and I may have been wrong.



i've never seen him before.  is he entertaining?


No, quite trollish actually.  Don't know why I even respond other than I don't have much work today.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Qui Ju on May 09, 2007, 08:57:51 AM
This was so good I'm posting it again.

Georgetown's stats.

Private sector (25th-75th percentile): $125,000 - $125,000 (this is from 2005. before the biglaw pay raises.)
Median in the private sector: $125,000
Percent in the private sector who reported salary information: 91%
Median in public service: $50,541

HTH 3.0 156.

why so hung up on Georgetown in particular anyway? 

I inferred the negative implications from past posts of wiimote.  It was not explicitly stated, and I may have been wrong.



i've never seen him before.  is he entertaining?


No, quite trollish actually.  Don't know why I even respond other than I don't have much work today.

meh.  i try not to feed the trolls.  but of course i'm doing it here.  now that's just bad luck.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 08:59:14 AM
Well, you need a somewhat decent rank at Georgetown to land a $160k job actually. Sorry to burst your bubble :)

Georgetown's stats.

Private sector (25th-75th percentile): $125,000 - $125,000 (this is from 2005. before the biglaw pay raises.)
Median in the private sector: $125,000
Percent in the private sector who reported salary information: 91%
Median in public service: $50,541

HTH 3.0 156.

Hmm, that's quite surprising, considering the reported portion of GULC graduates in V100 firms is 34.4% - But then again, on every statistic NYU places better than GULC, so I still feel pretty good about it, you feminine hygiene product.

wiimote, to ask you a serious question for once though; where do you get those numbers from? Google indicates they're found nowhere except on LSD and AutoAdmit, which is somewhat weird, not saying you're making it up.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Qui Ju on May 09, 2007, 09:00:39 AM
Well, you need a somewhat decent rank at Georgetown to land a $160k job actually. Sorry to burst your bubble :)

Georgetown's stats.

Private sector (25th-75th percentile): $125,000 - $125,000 (this is from 2005. before the biglaw pay raises.)
Median in the private sector: $125,000
Percent in the private sector who reported salary information: 91%
Median in public service: $50,541

HTH 3.0 156.

Hmm, that's quite surprising, considering the reported portion of GULC graduates in V100 firms is 34.4% - But then again, on every statistic NYU places better than GULC, so I still feel pretty good about it, you feminine hygiene product.

who's being elitist now?  ::)  :D
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 09:03:18 AM
Why didn't you disable the swear-filter?:p
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 09, 2007, 09:05:07 AM
Hmm, that's quite surprising, considering the reported portion of GULC graduates in V100 firms is 34.4% - But then again, on every statistic NYU places better than GULC, so I still feel pretty good about it, you feminine hygiene product.

wiimote, to ask you a serious question for once though; where do you get those numbers from? Google indicates they're found nowhere except on LSD and AutoAdmit, which is somewhat weird, not saying you're making it up.

The latest US News, 3.0 156.

Are you ever right about anything? You weren't in undergrad (3.0) or on the LSAT (156.)
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Qui Ju on May 09, 2007, 09:06:03 AM
Why didn't you disable the swear-filter?:p

too much trouble.

but seriously, what's with the not-so-subtle GULC trolling?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 09, 2007, 09:08:30 AM
Good question.  When I visited GULC I thought it was fantastic.  A teensy bit big and impersonal... but pretty fantastic.  I was under the impression that hiring out of GULC was as good as anywhere.  Plus you get to watch some damn fine basketball.  I don't know why GULC and Cornell get picked on so much.  If I hadn't done Cornell for grad work, I would have considered coming here too.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 09:10:02 AM
Are you ever right about anything? You weren't in undergrad (3.0) or on the LSAT (156.)

Well, I took my undergrad in 2 years while working 40 hour weeks. I kinda doubt you'd do any better.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Qui Ju on May 09, 2007, 09:10:42 AM
i suppose part of me is still annoyed about the fact that i didn't apply there, then later found out that they sent out their first decisions in like november or something.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Tony Montana on May 09, 2007, 09:13:52 AM

huh.  i didn't think the big firms went that deep into georgetown.

That is what happens when 0L speculate about programs they really don't know about...
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 09:15:51 AM
Well, actually, Qui Ju was correct. Those numbers were not for the 25th and 75th percentile of their graduates, it was the 25th and 75th percentile of 91% of the people who went into private practice which indeed leaves out quite a large number of graduates in total.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Tony Montana on May 09, 2007, 09:17:38 AM
And how is that different from MOST t14 schools?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 09:18:57 AM
Well, I didn't really say it was. But looking at the placement numbers in V100, there seems to be quite a noticeable difference between the schools.

Quote
Columbia 80.2%
Harvard 74.1%
Chicago 71.4%
Yale 68.8%
Stanford 65.9%
NYU 61.2%
Duke 55.8%
Northwestern 53.1%
Penn 49.4%
Cornell 43.0%
Virginia 41.4%
Michigan 41.3%
Georgetown 34.4%
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 09, 2007, 09:21:32 AM
Are you ever right about anything? You weren't in undergrad (3.0) or on the LSAT (156.)

Well, I took my undergrad in 2 years while working 40 hour weeks. I kinda doubt you'd do any better.

O RLY? What about your LSAT?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Qui Ju on May 09, 2007, 09:22:02 AM

huh.  i didn't think the big firms went that deep into georgetown.

That is what happens when 0L speculate about programs they really don't know about...

what makes you think i'm a 0L? 
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 09:23:15 AM
O RLY? What about your LSAT?

Good enough to get into my #1 choice, doesn't need to be better than that. Not like any employer is going to give a *&^% about what I got at the LSAT you know.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 09, 2007, 09:24:23 AM
Is anyone else offended that a 156 3.0 is about to scam his way into biglaw?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Qui Ju on May 09, 2007, 09:25:47 AM
Is anyone else offended that a 156 3.0 is about to scam his way into biglaw?

not really.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 09, 2007, 09:27:13 AM

not really.

Well I would be scared to death that he would be working with me. Based on his incorrect comments in this thread, he will drag the team down.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 09:27:24 AM
Is anyone else offended that a 156 3.0 is about to scam his way into biglaw?

Actually, I'm not going to take your Big Law spot, so you don't have to worry about that. I already got all the money I need, I'm going for a job that offers me some quality of life.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Tony Montana on May 09, 2007, 09:28:17 AM

huh.  i didn't think the big firms went that deep into georgetown.

That is what happens when 0L speculate about programs they really don't know about...

what makes you think i'm a 0L? 

Doesn’t matter... as it applies to speculating about programs you really don't know about...
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 09, 2007, 09:28:37 AM
Actually, I'm not going to take your Big Law spot, so you don't have to worry about that. I already got all the money I need, I'm going for a job that offers me some quality of life.

What money?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Qui Ju on May 09, 2007, 09:29:09 AM

not really.

Well I would be scared to death that he would be working with me. Based on his incorrect comments in this thread, he will drag the team down.

eh, i can carry the team by myself so i wouldn't care.*

*intentional arrogance.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 09:31:13 AM
Actually, I'm not going to take your Big Law spot, so you don't have to worry about that. I already got all the money I need, I'm going for a job that offers me some quality of life.

What money?

Considering you went through the effort of finding my LSAT and UGPA, I'm sure you were able to find the rest too.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 09, 2007, 09:33:46 AM
I'm not offended.  Congrats to him.  I am curious about how it came about though.  Must have some great soft factors.  

My cousin is going to NYU law next fall.  She's really looking forward to it.  She's on something where she gets a full ride but MUST work for PI for some really long time or pay the money back.  Eeek.  She got into CLS and NYU ... and one impression she had was that a lot of NYU's were still pining for CLS.  But hey, I'm sure they'll get over it.

This is somewhat irrelevant, but one criteria I had for a school was a place where students weren't upset that they couldn't get in somewhere better.  Although I guess that feeling is true for some people no matter what school you go to except MAYBE HYS.  Probably some Harvard people pissed they couldn't get into Yale.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: dukedogalley on May 09, 2007, 09:45:50 AM
Is anyone else offended that a 156 3.0 is about to scam his way into biglaw?

not at all, undergrad gpa doesnt mean anything, some people dont try because they are too busy partying and havent matured enough to realize that your gpa might actually matter...some people work 40 hours a week...some people go through major life crisis in college...there are many reasons why an intelligent person might have done poorly as an undergrad...as for the lsat, many people don't do well the first time they take it, i don't know if that is the case here, but for Keno it really doesnt matter because he/she got into his/her number one choice....why would anyone retake the lsat if they didnt have to..
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 09, 2007, 09:51:30 AM
Is anyone else offended that a 156 3.0 is about to scam his way into biglaw?


the only thing that offends me is your douchebaggery.

and that not much, because to be offended i would have to actually care about your opinion.

that said, having already made the moot court traveling team (and by the way, we won 3 national/regional competitions last year, kicking the *&^% out of some t14's where it really counts - the courtroom) i would hope that you would someday be on your school's team.  then you could tell me to my face, should you have the balls (which i doubt) what a ttt loser i am.

just make sure you have finished your arguments first.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Rule of Reason on May 09, 2007, 09:55:31 AM
f*ck it forget the LSAT and the GPA - neither of them mean a thing anymore once you're enrolled.

Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: pastor of muppets on May 09, 2007, 10:03:17 AM
Can we have a serious discussion about the possible motives for the trolls in this thread?  I have been wondering about this.  They seem bright enough in an abstract sort of way, so I have to figure it isn't jealousy.  But I just can't believe that there are people out there petty enough to dedicate what would be otherwise productive lives to trolling on an internet message board.  Something doesn't add up.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: ptown on May 09, 2007, 10:05:12 AM
Can we have a serious discussion about the possible motives for the trolls in this thread?  I have been wondering about this.  They seem bright enough in an abstract sort of way, so I have to figure it isn't jealousy.  But I just can't believe that there are people out there petty enough to dedicate what would be otherwise productive lives to trolling on an internet message board.  Something doesn't add up.

Believe it, there are tons of UG students with litte to do and big egos that need stroking.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 10:07:12 AM
Not big egos, it's insecurity. It's quite common that people belittle others in an attempt to make themselves feel better. It's not exclusive for internet forums or law students or whatever.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: pastor of muppets on May 09, 2007, 10:13:45 AM
Not big egos, it's insecurity. It's quite common that people belittle others in an attempt to make themselves feel better. It's not exclusive for internet forums or law students or whatever.

Its hard for me to believe, but I guess you must be right.  What a sad, miserable existence.  If these people were to put their time and energy into something positive, for themselves or others, think of how much happier they might be.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Jay the Great on May 09, 2007, 10:21:32 AM
The point I was making with this topic was that you don't become a good lawyer in law school.

You become a good lawyer after you graduate.

And wiimote, you are a troll. What are your credentials since you're so busy tearing everyone else down?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: ptown on May 09, 2007, 10:27:18 AM
very good reading at work, just got through 10 pages.  :D

anyway, who cares HOW you got into a school?  long as you did it, and finish respectably, I don't think it matters much.

rule of thumb: if your expected debts coming out of any school (ug, graduate, or prof) are greater than one year of salary, you're making a huge mistake.




I had a lot more debt from ug than I made right out.  I don't think it was a mistake, as it's paid now.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 10:29:50 AM
The point I was making with this topic was that you don't become a good lawyer in law school.

You become a good lawyer after you graduate.
This is certainly true

Quote
And wiimote, you are a troll. What are your credentials since you're so busy tearing everyone else down?
At this point, how convinced would people be that he'd be truthful?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: kirkcameronsgf on May 09, 2007, 10:32:09 AM
very good reading at work, just got through 10 pages.  :D

anyway, who cares HOW you got into a school?  long as you did it, and finish respectably, I don't think it matters much.

rule of thumb: if your expected debts coming out of any school (ug, graduate, or prof) are greater than one year of salary, you're making a huge mistake.




I had a lot more debt from ug than I made right out.  I don't think it was a mistake, as it's paid now.

If you don't mind me asking, how long did it take you to pay it off?  I'm just curious.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 09, 2007, 10:35:14 AM
The point I was making with this topic was that you don't become a good lawyer in law school.

You become a good lawyer after you graduate.
This is certainly true

Quote
And wiimote, you are a troll. What are your credentials since you're so busy tearing everyone else down?
At this point, how convinced would people be that he'd be truthful?


Well this is true of everyone.  Plus, even if he was truthful, how would he prove it?  I know I wouldn't give my name or anything that could substantially prove anything.  I have the admitted website pword, but I could have gotten it from anyone.

So... point is moot really.  I am interested in hearing where he says he's going to LS though. 
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: ptown on May 09, 2007, 10:35:27 AM
very good reading at work, just got through 10 pages.  :D

anyway, who cares HOW you got into a school?  long as you did it, and finish respectably, I don't think it matters much.

rule of thumb: if your expected debts coming out of any school (ug, graduate, or prof) are greater than one year of salary, you're making a huge mistake.




I had a lot more debt from ug than I made right out.  I don't think it was a mistake, as it's paid now.

If you don't mind me asking, how long did it take you to pay it off?  I'm just curious.


I graduated in 2003, and it is recently paid off.

Also, I made less than the total debt when I got out, I make more now.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 09, 2007, 10:46:34 AM
very good reading at work, just got through 10 pages.  :D

anyway, who cares HOW you got into a school?  long as you did it, and finish respectably, I don't think it matters much.

rule of thumb: if your expected debts coming out of any school (ug, graduate, or prof) are greater than one year of salary, you're making a huge mistake.



3.0 156 should not be allowed an NYU degree. He should be at a tier 3.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 10:57:19 AM
very good reading at work, just got through 10 pages.  :D

anyway, who cares HOW you got into a school?  long as you did it, and finish respectably, I don't think it matters much.

rule of thumb: if your expected debts coming out of any school (ug, graduate, or prof) are greater than one year of salary, you're making a huge mistake.



3.0 156 should not be allowed an NYU degree. He should be at a tier 3.

Does it hurt to know your precious LSAT numbers doesn't equate to success?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: CoxlessPair on May 09, 2007, 11:02:48 AM
very good reading at work, just got through 10 pages.  :D

anyway, who cares HOW you got into a school?  long as you did it, and finish respectably, I don't think it matters much.

rule of thumb: if your expected debts coming out of any school (ug, graduate, or prof) are greater than one year of salary, you're making a huge mistake.



3.0 156 should not be allowed an NYU degree. He should be at a tier 3.

Does it hurt to know your precious LSAT numbers doesn't equate to success?

The GPA/LSAT argument also falls apart in light of the highly successful transfer programs at NYU, Columbia, WUSTL, GULC, UIUC, etc. Each of those T25/T20/T14 programs let in dozens of T2-T4 students each year, most of which absolutely thrive at the "more prestigious" program. Clearly transfers did not measure up with LSAT/GPA yet still excel as law students.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 11:06:47 AM
Yeah, the transfer programs just shows that the schools know LSAT and UPGA doesn't say it all about your chances to succeed. The continued use of UPGA and LSAT numbers for admissions also prove that they do to some degree indicate your ability. But certainly, people allowed transfer have proven that they are capable of success in law school, which is infinitely more important to a top school than your LSAT number. Successful student usually means successful lawyer (not always), which again means a valuable alumni post graduation.

I believe I read somewhere that CLS's transfer class for fall 2006 was over 50 people... Which is a quite considerably number compared to their inaugural class.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 11:23:02 AM
I believe I read somewhere that CLS's transfer class for fall 2006 was over 50 people... Which is a quite considerably number compared to their inaugural class.

Not so fast there.  How many of those 50 are from national or top regional schools (ie, everything through around GWU). 

While I have seen no official numbers on that, I doubt it's many. Two reasons, first of all top schools generally want to pick up the good ones in the Top 25 to very good Tier 3 kids, and not really steal students from eachother. Secondly, I doubt many top students at top schools would be willing to take the risk of transfering to another school. If you're in the top 20% or whatever at GWU, you really have plenty of employment opportunities, and would have little to gain from transferring to a school a few spots higher on the rankings. And a lot to lose.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: mgoblue85 on May 09, 2007, 12:32:13 PM
I don't think you can generalize about the motivations of transfers.  Perhaps they want to be closer to a spouse/relationship.  Perhaps they are homesick and want to be closer to family/friends.  Perhaps they did not like the programs/atmosphere in their law school.  All of these factors can indeed influence a student to jump from one good school to another.

Secondly, only top 10% generally are able to transfer from T2 programs into t14 or comparable schools.  You have to assess what their LSAT/GPAs were, because some students choose T2s despite their high numbers, for a variety of reasons (cost being the most prominent, I presume).  Perhaps they did not feel challenged at their T2 school, or perhaps they even strategically played this by fulfilling reqs at one school for a much lower cost with the idea of transferring to a more expensive, prestigious school for the last two years. 

So I think a lot (perhaps not a majority, but a lot) of these transfers already have good LSAT/GPA combos.  Furthermore, the rest of the transfers are the tiny minority of students to have lesser LSAT/GPA combos but have performed well in law school.  It's akin to the existence of MLB pitchers who have an 85 mph fastball, but are still able to pitch in the majors. 
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: KillYourself on May 09, 2007, 12:50:39 PM
Once again, there needs to be a happy medium between LSD and XoXo.  Not exactly in the middle though since xoxo is crazy.  Maybe like 10% xoxo, 90% LSD.  That 10% would be enough to give LSD a healthy dose of reality.  I understand that a lot of you feel that by criticizing Tier 3/4 schools people are criticizing the students that attend there.  That's probably true for some of the xoxo trolls that have migrated over here, but it's not true for all of us.  To deny the somewhat grim nature of the prospects coming from a lot of the tier 3/4 schools is doing a disservice to the students that might end up attending there.  I'm not trying to stop people from going, but I think a lot of them need a wake up call.  They need to know what they are getting into so that it doesn't seem like the end of the world and a wasted 3 years if they are in the pool of people that doesn't find the job they want.

Obviously, each thread does not need to divulge into a discussion like this, but every time I have seen someone ask about T3/T4 schools people only have positive things to say. 

Reality is good!!
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: ptown on May 09, 2007, 12:56:33 PM
I don't think I have ever seen anyone state that it is just as well to go to a t14 as a t3.  People applying to and attending T3 schools know the disadvantages, they don't need to be rattled off over and over.

The main problem I have is that there are a lot of xoxo-type trolls that insist that if your school is ranked 51 or below by USNWR, you might as well be flipping burgers.

there is nothing wrong with saying that a t3 grad has less doors opened for them on graduation, but condemning every single person below t1 to a marginalized existence is just wrong, and it isn't based on fact.

Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 12:59:29 PM
So I think a lot (perhaps not a majority, but a lot) of these transfers already have good LSAT/GPA combos.  Furthermore, the rest of the transfers are the tiny minority of students to have lesser LSAT/GPA combos but have performed well in law school.  It's akin to the existence of MLB pitchers who have an 85 mph fastball, but are still able to pitch in the majors. 

I do not for a second below that is a minority. I believe that the high LSAT/GPA scores who chose to go to lower ranked school (95% of the time for money) and then decide to transfer and have 0 chance at any kind of money is a minority. If they didn't care for scholarships to begin with they would have gone to a better school from the get-go. Unless they won the lottery half-way through, I doubt their priorities have changed so much that they transfer into a school where they get no money - transfers generally never do from what I hear.

I don't really see why we need 10% of XOXO here at all. The sad fact that people believe the loudest bitching to necessarily be reality is kinda scary. You should be much more careful about who you take your advice from. Screaming higher than the others doesn't mean you're more right.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 09, 2007, 01:02:15 PM
Just another reminder so it doesn't get buried. Keno got a 156  and 3.0  GPA.

The only reason he is going to get a good job is because he went to NYU, and something feels really wrong about that.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 01:04:54 PM
Just another reminder so it doesn't get buried. Keno got a 156  and 3.0  GPA. and got in to a better school than wiimote

Fixed.

Quote
The only reason he is going to get a good job is because he went to NYU, and something feels really wrong about that.

And yeah, the fact that I've been successful within both creative arts and business before doesn't prove anything about my ability to succeed. Where as your kiddie ass, right out of high school through undergrad, really stands out as the new Johnnie Cochran.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: UFBGD on May 09, 2007, 01:10:53 PM
and it doesnt really take someone that intelligent to figure out that NYU would not take a 156 3.0 just because of URM status.  There must be many other great things about you Keno. Congrats!
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 01:11:32 PM
I'm not an URM, I'm a pale white trustfund baby. But thanks :)
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: UFBGD on May 09, 2007, 01:12:56 PM
 :P
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: UFBGD on May 09, 2007, 01:14:06 PM
wow even more reason to congradulate!   mmmm trust fund babies...i like them! LOL
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 01:15:25 PM
Well, the trust fund part might be a tad bit exaggerated, but I sure am white as snow:p
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: UFBGD on May 09, 2007, 01:15:55 PM
ew I just did the CongraD and CongraT slip up.  Must be my true T3-ness slipping in. Ooopps!
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 01:16:49 PM
Yeah, you're so TTT!
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: UFBGD on May 09, 2007, 01:18:03 PM
The least you could have said was that I was HOTTT! lol
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 01:18:59 PM
You're not female enough for me to say that :(
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: UFBGD on May 09, 2007, 01:20:25 PM
I'm a girl  ;D and HOTTTTTTTT lol :-*
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 01:21:55 PM
Ah, alright then!  ;D
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: UFBGD on May 09, 2007, 01:23:16 PM
maybe ill put a racey self-tar later lol.  But I dont think us T3 people know how to do such...so...georgey is gonna have to work for awhile.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 09, 2007, 01:24:43 PM
And yeah, the fact that I've been successful within both creative arts and business before doesn't prove anything about my ability to succeed. Where as your kiddie ass, right out of high school through undergrad, really stands out as the new Johnnie Cochran.

If you were so successful, then why did you have to switch careers, and why do you have enough time to post on LSD 24 hours a day?

Lehusehur?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: UFBGD on May 09, 2007, 01:26:13 PM
was that the jim carey loser bit...ahh i love it.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: mgoblue85 on May 09, 2007, 01:26:23 PM
First of all, as a person who will attend a T2 myself, I'm certainly not an elitist by any means.  I just think you need to be realistic.  You are probably not the only one thinking about transferring to a T14 school, and it's very difficult to get the grades necessary for that to happen, even at a T2 school, where the students are generally bright.

Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 01:27:22 PM
If you were so successful, then why are you going to law school, and why do you have enough time to post on LSD 24 hours a day?

Lehusehur?
Because I want to become a lawyer of some sorts. I have time to post on LSD 24 hours a day because, as written elsewhere, I'm in my final undergrad semester, lectures etc are complete, and finals doesn't start until May 25th. So I'm pretty much in a deadzone where I'm watching movies, reading some outlines and getting drunk. Not necessarily in that order.

UFBGD; 1) What does your name stand for 2) Who is Georgey?

Quote
First of all, as a person who will attend a T2 myself, I'm certainly not an elitist by any means.  I just think you need to be realistic.  You are probably not the only one thinking about transferring to a T14 school, and it's very difficult to get the grades necessary for that to happen, even at a T2 school, where the students are generally bright.
Very true, not denying that. Still, people seem to be successful at transferring quite a few spots upwards every year. What I do get an impression is that you really want to have a reason other than "want a better ranked school", as neither the school you transfer out of or the school you transfer into appears to like that much.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: UFBGD on May 09, 2007, 01:28:50 PM
I'm going to a T3 because my boss is footing some of the bill and I have a job with him when I graduate.  If I didn't have a job, I still don't know if I would care that much about the rankings.  I do go by what local people think about certain schools because these are the only people that matter to me (the people I'm going to be working around later).  
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 09, 2007, 01:29:36 PM
First of all, as a person who will attend a T2 myself, I'm certainly not an elitist by any means.  I just think you need to be realistic.  You are probably not the only one thinking about transferring to a T14 school, and it's very difficult to get the grades necessary for that to happen, even at a T2 school, where the students are generally bright.

Which tier 2? I'll look up their employment stats for you. I'll also compare them to the stats of a good school, and to your local tier 3.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: UFBGD on May 09, 2007, 01:30:36 PM
LOL. If I told you...I'd have to.. well it stands for UF-university that owns the nation Florida, and then my initials (yes G. for a middle initial, I don't want to talk about it) LOL!
Georgey---G.B. "Dubs" "W"
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 01:32:42 PM
Aha, capisco.  Florida is good, much better weather than Norway :(
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: ptown on May 09, 2007, 01:37:36 PM
First of all, as a person who will attend a T2 myself, I'm certainly not an elitist by any means.  I just think you need to be realistic.  You are probably not the only one thinking about transferring to a T14 school, and it's very difficult to get the grades necessary for that to happen, even at a T2 school, where the students are generally bright.


you are aware that the trolls in this thread are contesting that even a t2 school is not worth attending, and the bolded section is false, right?

Only if your school is ranked <50 this year, are you worth anything.  So the trolling goes...
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 01:38:40 PM
Better not go to a school in the 40s either, they might fall below #51 the next three years, and then your life is screwed.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: pastor of muppets on May 09, 2007, 02:01:46 PM
Just another reminder so it doesn't get buried. Keno got a 156  and 3.0  GPA.

The only reason he is going to get a good job is because he went to NYU, and something feels really wrong about that.

I bet KeNo will do a hell of a lot better than you in law school and his career after school.  Attitudes like yours turn people off big-time.  If I were in a position over you I would be sure to screw you over as much as I could, and believe me, I'm not the only one that feels that way.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 09, 2007, 02:04:21 PM
If I were in a position over you I would be sure to screw you over as much as I could, and believe me, I'm not the only one that feels that way.

One reason why it's good that tier 3 people are blacklisted from positions of authority.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: pastor of muppets on May 09, 2007, 02:04:47 PM
First of all, as a person who will attend a T2 myself, I'm certainly not an elitist by any means.  I just think you need to be realistic.  You are probably not the only one thinking about transferring to a T14 school, and it's very difficult to get the grades necessary for that to happen, even at a T2 school, where the students are generally bright.


you are aware that the trolls in this thread are contesting that even a t2 school is not worth attending, and the bolded section is false, right?

Only if your school is ranked <50 this year, are you worth anything.  So the trolling goes...

Yeah, isn't that hilarious?!  A Tier 2 student trying to pile on to his own hate fest!
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 02:05:36 PM
You assume he acts like this in real life, where as most likely he's quite shy and introvert, he would never have the balls to confront anyone face to face with his rambling.

Quote
One reason why it's good that tier 3 students people are blacklisted from positions of authority.
I bet Kenneth B. Forrest disagrees.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: pastor of muppets on May 09, 2007, 02:06:05 PM
If I were in a position over you I would be sure to screw you over as much as I could, and believe me, I'm not the only one that feels that way.

One reason why it's good that tier 3 students people are blacklisted from positions of authority.

Well, you'd better hope that is true.  My guess, though, is that you will end working for at least one person who was much less prestijus than yourself, and yet managed to get fairly high up because of hard work and determination.  They will not like you, I guarantee it.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 02:09:56 PM
Well, you'd better hope that is true.  My guess, though, is that you will end working for at least one person who was much less prestijus than yourself, and yet managed to get fairly high up because of hard work and determination.  They will not like you, I guarantee it.
Sure they will. As any good Big Law associate he will fetch the coffee, work on Sundays and accept being nicknamed "Hey, Jerk-off" to please his boss. Tough on internet does not correlate to tough in person. Usually the opposite.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 09, 2007, 02:15:24 PM
Well, you'd better hope that is true.  My guess, though, is that you will end working for at least one person who was much less prestijus than yourself, and yet managed to get fairly high up because of hard work and determination.  They will not like you, I guarantee it.

But should I believe you? I mean, you're too daft to realize you're being scammed by top school profs. who reap the fruits of your toilet school.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 09, 2007, 02:29:56 PM
wii reminds me of going to the zoo.

you walk past the monkey cage, and there they are, screeching and throwing their own poo.

you can reason with the monkies, you can argue with them, hell you can even get mad at them, but they don't care, they just keep screeching and flinging.

they're just doing they were made to do, they don't know any better.

wii is apparently the same product of his evolution and environment, so when he screeches and slings turds, he's just being true to his nature.

so pity poor wii.  he may go to yale and become a partner at skadden, and have a gazillion dollars.

but a monkey, even a monkey in an armani suit, is still just a monkey.





Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 02:31:41 PM
Monkey good. The Koreans serve them very well prepared.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 09, 2007, 02:33:18 PM
uh, that was pretty racist.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 09, 2007, 02:33:54 PM
Monkey good. The Koreans serve them very well prepared.


no, that would be vietnamese, thai.  monkies are not indigenous to the korean peninsula, even though there are some snow monkies in japan.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 09, 2007, 02:34:41 PM
uh, that was pretty racist.


meh, my wife is korean and i didn't take offense
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 02:34:52 PM
uh, that was pretty racist.

How can dinner be racist?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 09, 2007, 02:35:59 PM
Well, I'm only half korean, but that was pretty racist.

What compelled you to say that Koreans eat monkeys?  Are we barbaric?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 09, 2007, 02:37:29 PM
Well, I'm only half korean, but that was pretty racist.

What compelled you to say that Koreans eat monkeys?  Are we barbaric?



especially in the fact that wii would leave a bad taste in your mouth no matter how he was prepared.


ap, you can only be half offended then
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: fowles on May 09, 2007, 02:39:37 PM
Monkey good. The Koreans serve them very well prepared.

And here I thought you were well traveled. 
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 09, 2007, 02:40:32 PM
To tell you the truth, I'm not really offended.  I'm just surprised by the ignorance of that statement.  I don't run into blatant racism that often, so I guess I was just pretty shocked.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 02:43:19 PM
Not racist at all, and not even barbaric I'd say. I've had monkey brains served in very fashionable restaurants in Seoul. Whether they are local monkeys (if that even exist) or imported, I do not know. Weird texture, but quite tasty. One should not take things to be racist just because they're rather unique to a given part of the world.

Different != bad. At least in my book.

Quote
especially in the fact that wii would leave a bad taste in your mouth no matter how he was prepared.
:)
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 09, 2007, 02:43:32 PM
And here I thought you were well traveled. 

He was wrong on his LSAT (156), wrong in undergrad (3.0), so why are you surprised that he's wrong in this thread?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 02:44:21 PM
And here I thought you were well traveled. 

He was wrong on his LSAT (156), wrong in undergrad (3.0), so why are you surprised that he's wrong in this thread?
Hi broken record.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: fowles on May 09, 2007, 02:46:00 PM
Not racist at all, and not even barbaric I'd say. I've had monkey brains served in very fashionable restaurants in Seoul. Whether they are local monkeys (if that even exist) or imported, I do not know. Weird texture, but quite tasty. One should not take things to be racist just because they're rather unique to a given part of the world.

Different != bad. At least in my book.

Quote
especially in the fact that wii would leave a bad taste in your mouth no matter how he was prepared.
:)

Were they ninja monkey brains?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 02:47:16 PM
Not sure to be honest, they're not allowed to serve monkey brains from live monkeys anymore, so can't identify them. I hear that in some more rural provinces in China they still do, but no first hand experience there. And even if I did have, I guess that'd be racist too.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Thistle on May 09, 2007, 02:47:40 PM
Not racist at all, and not even barbaric I'd say. I've had monkey brains served in very fashionable restaurants in Seoul. Whether they are local monkeys (if that even exist) or imported, I do not know. Weird texture, but quite tasty. One should not take things to be racist just because they're rather unique to a given part of the world.

Different != bad. At least in my book.

Quote
especially in the fact that wii would leave a bad taste in your mouth no matter how he was prepared.
:)



they must have been imported.  i had them in thailand with a thai air force colonel, and like you say, the texture was somewhat off-putting, but they didn't necessarily taste bad.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 09, 2007, 02:49:59 PM
Whatever KeNo.  Go ahead and defend being racist like that.  And you were the one who was saying that others were going to be such jerks in law school?  It's fine.  Whatever.  All I know is for all the names you've called other people, you're one to judge other peoples attitudes.


Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: awesomepossum on May 09, 2007, 02:51:27 PM
Even compared to Wii.  He's probably just trying to get people annoyed and riled up.  But in your case, you don't even realize when you're being racist. 
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 02:54:47 PM
You're the one that's turning something regional and making it all negative. I'm pretty sure you know that monkey brains is considered a delicacy in several Asian countries. If anyone is being racist, it's you that makes it a bad thing to talk about it. I've never said a single derogatory word about it, I've seen served and eaten quite a lot of stuff that in my part of the world would be considered non-food, yet I've never once turned that into a racial negative. You just did, and still, you claim to be half-Korean. So what you're saying is that most of the Koreans are also racist, since they sometimes talk about eating monkey brains then. Good call.

Quote
All I know is for all the names you've called other people
What did I call other people?

Quote
Even compared to Wii.  He's probably just trying to get people annoyed and riled up.  But in your case, you don't even realize when you're being racist.
If you think saying "Koreans eat monkeys" (or several other Asian nationalities) is racist when they very clearly are, and this is quite common knowledge, you're just being a dumbass.

Hey, black people like fried chicken! Now I'm being double racist. Oh, and French people eat frogs! Damn, there I made it a triple.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: wiimote on May 09, 2007, 02:57:26 PM
How dumb are you? Someone (not me, don't worry) might forward these messages to NYU and they will retract their offer. You better edit that last comment out.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: «ě» on May 09, 2007, 02:58:30 PM
How dumb are you? Someone (not me, don't worry) might forward these messages to NYU and they will retract their offer. You better edit that last comment out.

Heh, go for it :)
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: blackpeoplelikeporkchops on May 09, 2007, 03:08:42 PM
blackpeoplelikeporkchopsbecau setheyareshapedlikeafrica
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Ersatz on May 09, 2007, 04:31:34 PM
Wow. This thread went to *&^% on about page 2 and just kept going downhill for the next 30 pages.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: CoxlessPair on May 09, 2007, 04:35:33 PM
blackpeoplelikeporkchopsbecausetheyareshapedlikeafrica

+10 if only for the trouble of creating a new moniker just for that post.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: pastor of muppets on May 09, 2007, 04:46:05 PM
Wow. This thread went to sh*t on about page 2 and just kept going downhill for the next 30 pages.

And yet it just keeps going.

I feel dirty for posting in this thread.   :-[
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Butters Stotch on May 09, 2007, 05:35:04 PM
Once again, there needs to be a happy medium between LSD and XoXo.  Not exactly in the middle though since xoxo is crazy.  Maybe like 10% xoxo, 90% LSD. 

Why don't you go sign up for a phpBB account and start one yourself?  Run along now.  Take 'pwnage' with you.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Jay the Great on May 09, 2007, 06:11:36 PM
You assume he acts like this in real life, where as most likely he's quite shy and introvert, he would never have the balls to confront anyone face to face with his rambling.

Quote
One reason why it's good that tier 3 students people are blacklisted from positions of authority.
I bet Kenneth B. Forrest disagrees.

I bet Senator Joe Biden would too.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: UFBGD on May 09, 2007, 06:36:48 PM

ap, you can only be half offended then
[/quote]


 :D :D :D :D :D
hahaha I had to back up a couple of pages to catch up on this good read lol
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: vap on May 09, 2007, 07:50:44 PM
tag for later.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Jay the Great on May 16, 2007, 12:22:03 PM
bump 4 more controversy
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: moonpie on May 18, 2007, 01:17:53 PM
You assume he acts like this in real life, where as most likely he's quite shy and introvert, he would never have the balls to confront anyone face to face with his rambling.

Quote
One reason why it's good that tier 3 students people are blacklisted from positions of authority.
I bet Kenneth B. Forrest disagrees.

I bet Senator Joe Biden would too.

Joe Biden is a) either an inept speaker or racist, b) a tool of the banks, and c) runs a lame state. he should be blacklisted from positions of authority..
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: pastor of muppets on May 18, 2007, 01:59:48 PM
You assume he acts like this in real life, where as most likely he's quite shy and introvert, he would never have the balls to confront anyone face to face with his rambling.

Quote
One reason why it's good that tier 3 students people are blacklisted from positions of authority.
I bet Kenneth B. Forrest disagrees.

I bet Senator Joe Biden would too.
Joe Biden is a) either an inept speaker or racist, b) a tool of the banks, and c) runs a lame state. he should be blacklisted from positions of authority..

Nah.  He's a blowhard, but other than that, he's okay.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: adlai on May 18, 2007, 02:39:51 PM
Joe Biden... is actually pretty intelligent in his area of foreign policy.

He was telling the truth too, just in a blunt and uncouth way. Fact is, Barak Obama is the first legitimate African-American candidate ever to run for president.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with Tier 3 law schools
Post by: Jay the Great on May 20, 2007, 01:27:54 AM
Back to the University of Memphis law school:

"The law school has graduated more than 4,500 students since its inception, and it currently has approximately 460 students and twenty-three full time professors. It is consistently named an “excellent value” in legal education by National Jurist Magazine. The law school also has had the highest bar passage rate in the State of Tennessee over the last 15 years surpassing both Vanderbilt Law School and the University of Tennessee School of Law. Additionally, for the last two years, it has a top law school job placement rate in the state with over 98% of graduates being employed within nine months of graduation. Many students participate on moot court or mock trial teams or are involved with one of the school's law journals, the University of Memphis Law Review and the Tennessee Journal of Practice and Procedure. Last year's Moot Court team placed second in the nation, behind only Duke. A member of the Memphis team was named "Best Oral Advocate." Also, the school's Moot Court/Mock Trial program has sent seven teams in ten years to the national competitions."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecil_C._Humphreys_School_of_Law

Also, all of the city's "TV" lawyers got their degree from the law school, as well as most of the city's top flight attorneys,