Law School Discussion

Applying to Law School => Law School Admissions => Topic started by: Cantillon on April 14, 2007, 01:33:58 PM

Title: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: Cantillon on April 14, 2007, 01:33:58 PM
So I just got this email from Boalt that lists the 56 students that have committed to attending Boalt.  The list has each student's location, email, undergraduate major, etc.  Surprise, surprise.  I only saw one hard science major (physics) and no engineering/CS majors.  Are such majors an oddity in law school or is it just a Boalt thing?  I'm going to feel like the odd man out in LS.
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: Texas2L on April 14, 2007, 02:58:50 PM
Engineering/hard science/CS departments tend to not have the ridiculous grade inflation that some of the business/liberal arts departments have, so those students typically have lower GPA's.  Since your GPA isn't normalized against your class/major but rather everyone who has ever graduated college for rankings purposes, people who took grade-deflated classes are at a disadvantage especially at a place that focuses more heavily on GPA like Boalt.

Not to say you can't have a very good GPA in any undergraduate endeavor if you put your mind to it, it's just less common in eng/cs/bio/physics.
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: TeresaPinfold on April 14, 2007, 05:32:42 PM
Well, that's no doubt true to some degree, but Law School is actually extremely forgiving of GPA compared to a lot of other options, since the LSAT counts for so much.

I think the supply factor is probably more important than the demand. Law School is a default that doesn't require any particular knowledge or skills for people drifting along aimlessly (myself, for instance), while someone in hard science might have more focused interests or practical knowledge.
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: makalika on April 15, 2007, 01:02:20 AM
I got my BS in Math and Computer Science - I just forgot to release my information on the Boalt list. 

Oh, and I agree about the grades - With my LSAT score and soft factors, its definitely my GPA keeping me out of Harvard so far...which kills me cause I worked really hard and in my degree, my GPA is considered really competitive.  Its hard competing against history majors though :(
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: SanchoPanzo on April 15, 2007, 09:02:34 AM
I am a 1L-Undergrad engineering major. In general, there are many more liberal arts majors in LS. However, to the extent that admissions folks believe that hard science majors tend to have lower GPAs than, say, liberal arts majors, the admissions officers probably consider this when admitting students.



Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: Cantillon on April 15, 2007, 09:48:18 AM
I got my BS in Math and Computer Science - I just forgot to release my information on the Boalt list. 

Oh, and I agree about the grades - With my LSAT score and soft factors, its definitely my GPA keeping me out of Harvard so far...which kills me cause I worked really hard and in my degree, my GPA is considered really competitive.  Its hard competing against history majors though :(

Makalika, are you planning on attending Boalt?  I thought the list was only of people who have definitely committed and not tentatively committed.  I haven't definitely committed though.
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: UcsbEng on April 15, 2007, 11:04:42 AM
I am a 1L-Undergrad engineering major. In general, there are many more liberal arts majors in LS. However, to the extent that admissions folks believe that hard science majors tend to have lower GPAs than, say, liberal arts majors, the admissions officers probably consider this when admitting students.





I used to think (hope) that.  I can say it seems some schools do take that into account, but a lot of them seem to count it for little if anything.  You're GPA hurts their numbers that they report to US News and so they will be ranked lower.  They just can't take tons of people from a major with such low GPAs without it hurting their rankings.  It's pretty bad when average is about a 2.7 or 2.8 tops in your major versus average being about a 3.5. 
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: ChiTownEE on April 15, 2007, 11:12:54 AM
I am confirmed at Boalt - have been for a while. I didn't submit the paper work though to be on that list.
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: qmmm on April 15, 2007, 11:43:28 AM
I'm a chemist who has committed to Boalt, but I didn't feel like sending in that form.
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: plex on April 15, 2007, 12:09:38 PM
I'm an EE, I had every intent to go into IP law before I even began undergrad. I went into EE because it is an extremely useful degree for IP. The grade curve is particularly brutal on EE's, even among engineers. I had something like a 4.0 average in my english/social science classes, since those are the ones I have always been strongest, but barely survived the insanely hard engineering classes. Ended up with a lower end 3, which was still well above average. With that GPA, and the three years of technical work experience, I could get a 80-100k starting pay job right now. So, if an EE goes into law, it isn't because of money, it is because it is something they want to do, they actually take a penalty if they go into anything other than IP law. I am going to a low end tier 2, and will be very surprised if I run into more than one other EE there, I don't expect to have any trouble at all, I am used to a curve even harder than the one I will have in law school.
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: Texas2L on April 15, 2007, 12:11:10 PM
But hard sciences people get the advantage on the LSAT, as they tend to do better than liberal arts people (or so I've heard), so wouldn't it balance out to some extent?  I think physics and math majors have the highest average LSAT scores

The LSAT is equal.  I do not get an advantage on it for having been an engineering major.  You took the same test I did.  I on the other hand was in classes which were graded far more harshly and given lower numbers for similar amounts of work. 

You cannot compare a test which is standardized to classes which are not and because one group is penalized in one area and scores better in another that it "balances".  If anything it means that the GPA's are even MORE deflated than they appear because as the LSAT indicates the engineering majors have more raw intellectual potential.
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: seacotton on April 15, 2007, 01:18:47 PM
I didn't feel any love for being an engineer in my recent admission process. 
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: Texas2L on April 15, 2007, 01:34:46 PM
I daresay there's nothing you could possibly learn in college that would help you on the LSAT besides basic reading comprehension, a bit of formal logic (engineers take this) and intelligence. 

The LSAT breakdown table given has a nice mix of sci/eng and other majors right near the top, I think if that data is accurate it's safe to say there's no benefit to any particular undergraduate major on the LSAT.
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: Texas2L on April 15, 2007, 01:41:06 PM
I don't think it's any coincidence that the admissions test to law school could be construed as a speed-reading competition, given what you have to do in law school.  I didn't do super-fantastic on the LSAT (167) but what I can say is I didn't have trouble finishing any of the sections without rushing.  I read fast.  :)
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: Alan Shore on April 15, 2007, 01:45:03 PM
I'm a computer science major.

I've seen a couple of schools put out their student body in terms of major.
Typically, a large bulk are English, Political Science or History.
About 5% or less are Computer Science/Engineering/Hard Sciences.

I think one of the reasons for this is interest.
How many people are computer science majors planning on going to law school?
It's pretty much just the people who want to do IP or Patent law.
In my case, it's an interest in the above, and I decided definitively on law school about 3 years into my undergraduate studies.

I think that having such a major can actually be a plus.
As someone said already, grade inflation usually isn't an issue, and they're often really tough courses.
On top of that, it gives us the diversity edge!! If we don't get to play the URM card, we get to play the "hey, we're an atypical applicant" card! :D
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: Alan Shore on April 15, 2007, 01:48:34 PM
The reason you do not see this I think is because of the generally good job/career prospects of being an engineer right now [with a lot of people scheduled to retire] and because of the type of person engineering schools attract.  By this I mean that law school/career in IP requires people/business skills that some people in our field seem to lack (more than average), the rest go into engineering management or at least this what it seems to me.

That's another great point.
I even had a professor ask me once, "Are you sure you're a computer science major? You help people and you're a great writer!" :)

And I worked a programming job last summer... and hated it. I was sitting there clicking on my keyboard all day. I need people interaction! I'm a people-person, and to be a lawyer, you have to know how to deal with people... and well, the typical CS/Engineering crowd usually doesn't fit this bill!
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: makalika on April 15, 2007, 01:56:32 PM
I did feel like I had an advantage on the LSAT than softer majors. 

My upper div math courses - esp analysis courses - already provided the groundwork to make arguments simpler and easily able to break down into patterns. Skills already honed from degree were: 1) Know how to disregard extraneous or irrelevant info 2)break down the relevent info into exactly what it does and does not imply. 3)Firmly define key terms (infer = what must be true, etc). 

Formal logic, also taught in higher level math courses, made the games section easier to wrangle in quick time.

However if anything, the fact that our (Technical Degreed people) LSATs balance our GPAs is MORE painful - because for many of us, that effectively makes us only "comparable" to someone with a high GPA and low LSAT in  a softer major...which is unfair because ultimately I think the argument some are trying to make is that we should be "ranked" ahead.  Not only is our LSAT higher, but our GPA "should" be thought of as equivalent to someone with a softer degree maybe 1 or 2 tenths higher due to the higher difficulty level of our programs.   

Now, I'm not personally trying to start a little war of the degrees on here, but I think these are the points that some are trying to make, and I can see where they are coming from...
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: botbot on April 15, 2007, 02:38:05 PM
Anyone know of a study that has looked at UG majors and grades/rank in law school?
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: krockband on April 15, 2007, 06:30:43 PM
The LSAT is equal.  I do not get an advantage on it for having been an engineering major.  You took the same test I did.  I on the other hand was in classes which were graded far more harshly and given lower numbers for similar amounts of work. 

The analytical science/engineering curriculum could provide a not-so-insignificant advantage on the LSAT, especially for the Games section, and probably also for the Reasoning section (if you figure out how to diagram the word problems into pure logic).
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: krockband on April 15, 2007, 07:09:11 PM
The analytical science/engineering curriculum could provide a not-so-insignificant advantage on the LSAT, especially for the Games section, and probably also for the Reasoning section (if you figure out how to diagram the word problems into pure logic).

lies.  an analytical mind would provide that advantage.  it doesn't test anything a high school student can't figure out.

I guess if you don't have an analytical mind at all, the course work wouldn't help. If you did, however, it could certainly help you hone your skills, thereby making studying for the LSAT much less painful.
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: Stuart on April 15, 2007, 07:18:36 PM
As a math / physics major, I found my training EXTREMELY useful on all but the passages section of the LSAT.
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: krockband on April 15, 2007, 07:21:18 PM
I guess if you don't have an analytical mind at all, the course work wouldn't help. If you did, however, it could certainly help you hone your skills, thereby making studying for the LSAT much less painful.

conjecture.

As opposed to your...conjecture?
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: Alan Shore on April 15, 2007, 07:22:08 PM
The analytical science/engineering curriculum could provide a not-so-insignificant advantage on the LSAT, especially for the Games section, and probably also for the Reasoning section (if you figure out how to diagram the word problems into pure logic).

lies.  an analytical mind would provide that advantage.  it doesn't test anything a high school student can't figure out.

This is absolutely true. Those that think more abstractly and analytically will likely be the CS/Science/Engineering majors.

So it's not really a causal relationship, it's just that those who would do well because of the way they think are CS/etc. majors!
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: Stuart on April 15, 2007, 07:28:09 PM
In all honesty, the fact that no one tosses around claims that humanities majors do better on the parts of the LSAT that heavily involve reading comprehension (Um, 3/4 of the test?) is either a really lame comeback to complaints by science students that their heavily discounted GPAs leave them at a disadvantage in their applications or a sign that humanities degrees are slightly less valuable than toilet paper.

I'm going to side with the former. If anyone wants to try to convince me otherwise, knock yourself out.

I disagree with bolded. I think the short passages are more about logical reasoning than reading comprehension....
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: skillerj on April 15, 2007, 08:03:33 PM
I used to think (hope) that.  I can say it seems some schools do take that into account, but a lot of them seem to count it for little if anything.  You're GPA hurts their numbers that they report to US News and so they will be ranked lower.  They just can't take tons of people from a major with such low GPAs without it hurting their rankings.  It's pretty bad when average is about a 2.7 or 2.8 tops in your major versus average being about a 3.5. 

I have heard that they do take into account your major from an admission officer.  But the admission officer was talking to my undergrad and knew the school very well since they are in same local area.  I suspect local reputations has a lot to do with it and also reputations created from alumni going to that particular school.  I have heard that students from my undergrad tend to be the top graduates of another local school (reason being engineering school is harder than/prepares students better for law school).

One would think there would be a ton of engineering/science students wanting to go to law school due to the high salary/demand in intellectual property.  The reason you do not see this I think is because of the generally good job/career prospects of being an engineer right now [with a lot of people scheduled to retire] and because of the type of person engineering schools attract.  By this I mean that law school/career in IP requires people/business skills that some people in our field seem to lack (more than average), the rest go into engineering management or at least this what it seems to me.

May I add on behalf of life sciences majors; the majority pursues med school because of the stability and good pay, and  the rest of us are attracted by business in biotechnology/pharma industry. 
I might sound stereotypical, but I think this is the trend these days.
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: krockband on April 15, 2007, 08:13:50 PM
Yes.  It's way more far out to say x major helps prepare for the LSAT when, in fact, people of all majors do well on the LSAT.

hth.

I'm talking about averages here
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: ChiTownEE on April 15, 2007, 08:37:50 PM
I won't miss engineering school. I haven't slept for 4 years, Im usually doing school work ~12 hrs a day 7 days a week, thats why my GPA is so high, I live and breath my work - and at night I dream about it... yeah its frustrating watching polisci majors work 1/10 as much as me, but in the end I think an ee degree is worth more than 10x more. I also watch people who aren't willing to work their absolute hardest and give everything they have to their engineering studies complain about low GPAs, for them I rarely have sympathy.

Edit: I also found nothing in my studies, with the possible minor exception of discrete math, even remotely helpful for the LSAT; in fact, I think the lack of emphasis on language skills and reading in engineering education is harmful to LSAT scores.
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: Wunjin on April 15, 2007, 08:54:59 PM
Engineering/hard science/CS departments tend to not have the ridiculous grade inflation that some of the business/liberal arts departments have, so those students typically have lower GPA's.  Since your GPA isn't normalized against your class/major but rather everyone who has ever graduated college for rankings purposes, people who took grade-deflated classes are at a disadvantage especially at a place that focuses more heavily on GPA like Boalt.

Not to say you can't have a very good GPA in any undergraduate endeavor if you put your mind to it, it's just less common in eng/cs/bio/physics.

For the most part, I wouldn't put business and liberal arts in the same boat.  On the whole, I think a business degree is much harder to get a really good GPA in.
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: ChiTownEE on April 15, 2007, 09:30:56 PM
Engineering/hard science/CS departments tend to not have the ridiculous grade inflation that some of the business/liberal arts departments have, so those students typically have lower GPA's.  Since your GPA isn't normalized against your class/major but rather everyone who has ever graduated college for rankings purposes, people who took grade-deflated classes are at a disadvantage especially at a place that focuses more heavily on GPA like Boalt.

Not to say you can't have a very good GPA in any undergraduate endeavor if you put your mind to it, it's just less common in eng/cs/bio/physics.

For the most part, I wouldn't put business and liberal arts in the same boat.  On the whole, I think a business degree is much harder to get a really good GPA in.

At most schools I dont think that this is the case at all. Every UG business program Ive ever heard of has massive grade inflation, thats their lure.
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: Stuart on April 15, 2007, 09:35:15 PM
In all honesty, the fact that no one tosses around claims that humanities majors do better on the parts of the LSAT that heavily involve reading comprehension (Um, 3/4 of the test?) is either a really lame comeback to complaints by science students that their heavily discounted GPAs leave them at a disadvantage in their applications or a sign that humanities degrees are slightly less valuable than toilet paper.

I'm going to side with the former. If anyone wants to try to convince me otherwise, knock yourself out.

I disagree with bolded. I think the short passages are more about logical reasoning than reading comprehension....

And I'll disagree right back. Clearly, the LR section are more about logical reasoning than the RC section is, but if you are honestly telling me that reading comprehension is completely divorced from being able to understand basic logic, I'm going to have to start to slide towards my alternate hypothesis of "Humanities majors are morons."

Ummm... OK, although if that was intended as an insult,  you should probably have noted first (as per above) that I'm a math / physics major.

Also, obviously reading comprehension is a prerequisite to understanding basic logic; but that's exactly the kind of reading that math and science majors have to do routinely, and excel at. Since we're having a discussion about LSAT abilities in the context of majors, I naturally interpreted your comment to refer to the more subtle and intensive reading comprehension at which humanities majors should excel, and at which science majors might be expected not to. My point was that the primary thing tested by the LR sections is logic, and I stand by that. The only reading ability required is the same ability that is required to parse the statement of a mathematical theorem.
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: krockband on April 15, 2007, 10:02:28 PM
I won't miss engineering school. I haven't slept for 4 years, Im usually doing school work ~12 hrs a day 7 days a week, thats why my GPA is so high, I live and breath my work - and at night I dream about it...

Do you love pain?

j/k
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: makalika on April 16, 2007, 12:53:08 AM
I also watch people who aren't willing to work their absolute hardest and give everything they have to their engineering studies complain about low GPAs, for them I rarely have sympathy.


lame. 

That support for your peers is going to be something for 2010 Boalt students to look forward to. 
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: TeresaPinfold on April 16, 2007, 01:24:00 AM
All these damn doctors causing plagues!
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: iSalute on April 16, 2007, 01:26:50 AM
I won't miss engineering school. I haven't slept for 4 years, Im usually doing school work ~12 hrs a day 7 days a week, thats why my GPA is so high, I live and breath my work - and at night I dream about it...

Do you love pain?

j/k

Really not unusual. I sleep about 3-6 hours per night. Every other hour I am either in class, doing school work, going to meetings, or making sure my clubs do not go to crap. I even eat in class because I dont have time for breakfast, lunch, or dinner. Woohooo!

But of course I do have time for LSD!
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: JuanTwoThree on April 16, 2007, 05:44:19 AM
Schools DO NOT take strength of classes/major into account. I did no better than my numbers and LSN would dictate. This whole process is numbers driven except for the absolute rarest case.
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: Geo_Storm on April 16, 2007, 06:12:55 AM
I can't help but think that my EE degree and a heavy course load throughout my UG played a role in my acceptances.
As for higher LSAT, I think only very motivated students go from Hard science/engineering to Law, whereas some more mediocre students from arts majors go into law because that's what they decided on before starting UG. Most hard science majors decide on law midway through their UG.
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: krockband on April 16, 2007, 07:42:34 AM
I won't miss engineering school. I haven't slept for 4 years, Im usually doing school work ~12 hrs a day 7 days a week, thats why my GPA is so high, I live and breath my work - and at night I dream about it...

Do you love pain?

j/k

Really not unusual. I sleep about 3-6 hours per night. Every other hour I am either in class, doing school work, going to meetings, or making sure my clubs do not go to crap. I even eat in class because I dont have time for breakfast, lunch, or dinner. Woohooo!

But of course I do have time for LSD!

My comment was more of a remark on how you're in for more of the same by going to law school (of course, still a joke).
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: seacotton on April 16, 2007, 07:51:22 AM
Schools DO NOT take strength of classes/major into account. I did no better than my numbers and LSN would dictate. This whole process is numbers driven except for the absolute rarest case.

Same here
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: Stuart on April 16, 2007, 02:51:29 PM
Ah, sorry to be oversensitive then.

But if I implied that humanities majors are divorced from logic, I'm sorry -- I meant only to suggest that math was a good preparation, and that the sections in question were more dependent on logic than on reading comprehension. Perhaps I mis-comprehended your original point.  :D

Also, I suppose there might be other reasons to major in humanities than just picking up logical thinking skills. I know, for example, that as a math major, my writing skills have suffered. (My writing skills are a math major).

In all honesty, the fact that no one tosses around claims that humanities majors do better on the parts of the LSAT that heavily involve reading comprehension (Um, 3/4 of the test?) is either a really lame comeback to complaints by science students that their heavily discounted GPAs leave them at a disadvantage in their applications or a sign that humanities degrees are slightly less valuable than toilet paper.

I'm going to side with the former. If anyone wants to try to convince me otherwise, knock yourself out.

I disagree with bolded. I think the short passages are more about logical reasoning than reading comprehension....

And I'll disagree right back. Clearly, the LR section are more about logical reasoning than the RC section is, but if you are honestly telling me that reading comprehension is completely divorced from being able to understand basic logic, I'm going to have to start to slide towards my alternate hypothesis of "Humanities majors are morons."

Ummm... OK, although if that was intended as an insult,  you should probably have noted first (as per above) that I'm a math / physics major.

Also, obviously reading comprehension is a prerequisite to understanding basic logic; but that's exactly the kind of reading that math and science majors have to do routinely, and excel at. Since we're having a discussion about LSAT abilities in the context of majors, I naturally interpreted your comment to refer to the more subtle and intensive reading comprehension at which humanities majors should excel, and at which science majors might be expected not to. My point was that the primary thing tested by the LR sections is logic, and I stand by that. The only reading ability required is the same ability that is required to parse the statement of a mathematical theorem.

Was not intended as an insult, I know you aren't a humanities major.

My point remains that if the subject matter in the humanities truly is as divorced from logic as you seem to claim, perhaps we need to start questioning how humanities degrees still have a $160k price tag associated with them.
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: ChiTownEE on April 16, 2007, 03:26:56 PM
I also watch people who aren't willing to work their absolute hardest and give everything they have to their engineering studies complain about low GPAs, for them I rarely have sympathy.


lame. 

That support for your peers is going to be something for 2010 Boalt students to look forward to. 

Law school and Boalt in particular are VERY different environments than engineering. I look forward to being able to support my classmates and knowing that they are have the type of character that Boalt recruits. Everyone I met at the ASW was strong, confident and social - I don't think that it will be an issue at all.

Besides, Boalt fosters support among peers, Cal EECS is much more cut throat and very much less social and supportive. Like I said in my original post, I won't miss engineering school.
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: EEtoJD on April 16, 2007, 06:08:08 PM
I'm EE (duh) and Boalt flat out rejected me. Bastards. I have a great background for Silicon Valley IP (semiconductor, photonics, and nanotechnology research and graduate coursework), but they didn't seem to care. Maybe my 1st LSAT, maybe something else. My GPA is high for an EE [3.96 degree, 3.85 LSAC (a story for another day)].

So, in closing, I hate you Boalt. :P
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: krockband on April 16, 2007, 06:44:23 PM
I'm EE (duh) and Boalt flat out rejected me. Bastards. I have a great background for Silicon Valley IP (semiconductor, photonics, and nanotechnology research and graduate coursework), but they didn't seem to care. Maybe my 1st LSAT, maybe something else. My GPA is high for an EE [3.96 degree, 3.85 LSAC (a story for another day)].

So, in closing, I hate you Boalt. :P

Your stats are great. I think Boalt rejected you because they simply get so many applications from people interested in IP, many with ridiculous credentials.
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: EEtoJD on April 16, 2007, 08:00:01 PM
I'm EE (duh) and Boalt flat out rejected me. Bastards. I have a great background for Silicon Valley IP (semiconductor, photonics, and nanotechnology research and graduate coursework), but they didn't seem to care. Maybe my 1st LSAT, maybe something else. My GPA is high for an EE [3.96 degree, 3.85 LSAC (a story for another day)].

So, in closing, I hate you Boalt. :P

Your stats are great. I think Boalt rejected you because they simply get so many applications from people interested in IP, many with ridiculous credentials.

Thanks. I was WLed at CLS and NYU today, so I'm feeling especially dumb. It was offset a bit by a nice increase in scholarship from GULC, but I'm still gonna drown my sorrows in Thai food and ice cream tonight.
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: Chingon on April 16, 2007, 10:11:51 PM
I'm EE (duh) and Boalt flat out rejected me. Bastards. I have a great background for Silicon Valley IP (semiconductor, photonics, and nanotechnology research and graduate coursework), but they didn't seem to care. Maybe my 1st LSAT, maybe something else. My GPA is high for an EE [3.96 degree, 3.85 LSAC (a story for another day)].

So, in closing, I hate you Boalt. :P

Wow, I think you stole my life.  I'm EE (nano, semiconductor, optics), with grad work, bad (relatively) 1st LSAT, and rejected at Boalt.  I thought I was a good fit for them, too. 

I wish Michigan would give me some love as well.
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: EEtoJD on April 16, 2007, 10:14:39 PM
I'm EE (duh) and Boalt flat out rejected me. Bastards. I have a great background for Silicon Valley IP (semiconductor, photonics, and nanotechnology research and graduate coursework), but they didn't seem to care. Maybe my 1st LSAT, maybe something else. My GPA is high for an EE [3.96 degree, 3.85 LSAC (a story for another day)].

So, in closing, I hate you Boalt. :P

Wow, I think you stole my life.  I'm EE (nano, semiconductor, optics), with grad work, bad (relatively) 1st LSAT, and rejected at Boalt.  I thought I was a good fit for them, too. 

I wish Michigan would give me some love as well.

Whoa. We should start our own law school.
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: Texas2L on April 18, 2007, 06:59:49 PM
The real irony would be if he were actually getting good grades and had a 3.5+ GPA like 90% of the humanities majors.
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: Ravynous Elegance on April 18, 2007, 07:06:12 PM
I'm not saying this because I'm a philosophy major (which I am... philosophy of science) but as a general trend, Philosophy undergraduate majors do perform "best" on all standardized grad school tests, including the MCAT.

It is probably just because of the amount of dense boring impenetrable reading that we do (ever read Kant's CPR?), and its probably true that most philosophy majors go onto grad school, which may not be true of most other majors.

I've never heard the correlation between the LSAT and physics undergrads, but the analytical reasoning section makes sense, as does the logical reasoning (to a lesser extent) but analytical (logic games) are less than 25% of the test, and the easiest section to learn...
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: plex on May 01, 2007, 03:54:01 PM
I'm an EE, I had every intent to go into IP law before I even began undergrad. I went into EE because it is an extremely useful degree for IP. The grade curve is particularly brutal on EE's, even among engineers. I had something like a 4.0 average in my english/social science classes, since those are the ones I have always been strongest, but barely survived the insanely hard engineering classes. Ended up with a lower end 3, which was still well above average. With that GPA, and the three years of technical work experience, I could get a 80-100k starting pay job right now. So, if an EE goes into law, it isn't because of money, it is because it is something they want to do, they actually take a penalty if they go into anything other than IP law. I am going to a low end tier 2, and will be very surprised if I run into more than one other EE there, I don't expect to have any trouble at all, I am used to a curve even harder than the one I will have in law school.

I disagree and agree about the money factor (I am an EE as well).  Engineering majors make a lot of money starting out, but then it kinda peaks if one doesn't go into engineering management (at least that is what I have seen in my experience, others may see different things).  The salary for patent lawyers is higher in BIGLAW compared to other associates (ie, BIGLAW starting is $125,000, then patent lawyers is $135,000 (I have seen as high as $160,000 starting, which I think that is starting to border on ridiculous)).  But of course that is biglaw, but the others translate down as well.  There is also growth in these jobs with experience.  Being that the hot jobs in patent law is EE and biotechnology, I would expect more EE's wanting to go into law (especially typical requirement for EE patent law jobs is a bachelors vs. PhD for things like biotech.)  You are right to a certain extent, if they decided to do something other than IP/patent law, it might result in a pay cut.  But I also think that salaries grow more in law than they do in straight engineering.  What has been your experience?

Ah, been away from the board for a bit.

Anyways, pay comparison wise, I am just speaking from my situation, over 80% of those who are from my undergrad engineering school, that go into engineering, also end up in management, usually within 3-5 years after starting, so when I was thinking of pay, I meant it scaled at an engineering managers pay level. However, managers have to change locations all the time, every few years or so, and it is not uncommon at all to switch companies, which can also easily lead to a change in location, so in order for pay to scale fairly well, an engineer has to move, a lot. It is just a different kind of trade off. Engineers, especially EE's, have a lot of options open to them.
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: EEtoJD on May 01, 2007, 05:34:10 PM
The partnership track for IP boutiques is also shorter, meaning you can make big bucks sooner (if that is the path one would want to take, don't know if I can do the long hours for that many years).  I still disagree with your premise about the money.  Yes, engineers make a good amount of money in general, but there is a lot more in IP law in general(but not as much someone who does investment banking).

Non sequitur:  Until yesterday.  I'm thinking KSR is gonna take some of the shine off the patent business.

I'll actually go out on a limb and take the contrarian viewpoint that the hot IP market will contract, perhaps substantially, over the next 5-8 years. 

I'd love to be wrong, but I'm hedging my bets.  I'd advise others interested in patent to keep an eye on what the Fed Circuit and Congress do over the next couple years.

I disagree. I think KSR helps. Allows for leeway and common sense decisions instead of strigent rule application. Gets rid of a bunch of patent trolls that scare real inventors away. Real inventors come to realize that they don't need to be as scared of patent trolls as they were.

It hurts incremental patents, true. I don't know how much of a chunk they are in a patent firm's work, but I don't imagine much. It also might hurt litigation.

But what the hell do I know. I'm a freakin' 0L. I'm not worried, though. :) I'm psyched about this decision. I always thought that this was one major flaw in the patent system, and now steps are being made to fix it.
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: plex on May 01, 2007, 05:37:32 PM
Contract....how?

A lot of aspects of IP law require not only a JD/passing the bar, but also to be registered to practice before the USPTO, which only engineers/science majors are even allowed to take the test to qualify for the registration.

Anyways, anyone have a link to a relevant article?
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: EEtoJD on May 01, 2007, 05:53:05 PM
Agreed. If it does mean that it's harder to get a patent law job, I (personally) hope that means that they'll still go deep in "top" schools and maybe not as deep at lower-ranked schools... this would at least justify my decision as to where I should go. :)

I'm sad to hear that incremental patterns are a significant chunk, because it's clear that they'll be significantly affected by KSR.

So, prosecution will take a hit, but how do you think it will affect litigation?

EDIT: Thanks for the link!
Title: Re: Where are my engineers/hard science majors at?
Post by: EEtoJD on May 01, 2007, 06:22:49 PM
Interesting analysis. It seems that software-related patents will be affected the most, considering the sheer volume of incremental patents in this realm (I mean, just look at the splash screen for Acrobat!).