Law School Discussion

Off-Topic Area => General Off-Topic Board => Topic started by: brown on April 12, 2007, 07:12:54 PM

Title: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: brown on April 12, 2007, 07:12:54 PM
I'm listening to the oral arguments for Roe v. Wade where the advocate for the appellant claimed that abortions are safer than childbirth.  Does anyone know if that is true today?
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: brown on April 12, 2007, 08:02:51 PM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9292639&dopt=Abstract

This Finnish study says childbirth is safer (like 3-4x).
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: obamacon on April 12, 2007, 09:01:37 PM
Death is not the only risk.
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: wannaB1L on April 12, 2007, 09:42:21 PM
abortion always ends in the murder of a baby. killing = death.
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: brown on April 12, 2007, 09:49:26 PM
abortion always ends in the murder of a baby. killing = death.

piss off.

You have to agree that all abortions produce a death.
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: Lampshade Punk on April 12, 2007, 09:54:31 PM
someone can have two kids without jeopordizing their chances of having another.  2 abortions and you can say bye bye to kids. 
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: wannaB1L on April 12, 2007, 09:55:49 PM
infanticide. a baby should have a chance to smell a flower, see a cloud feel the grass with their feet. I love children and think abortion is murder. I have only known two girls that had abortions (and told me).One was guilty, the other one was scared of becoming infertile so she kept her 3rd prenancy. If you have a moral compass you feel bad about killing your unborn child. It is just so unnatural to kill your offspring. If you don't have a moral compass, well then you just have a scarred uterus. And babies cry and Angels scream.
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: Lampshade Punk on April 12, 2007, 09:56:22 PM
someone can have two kids without jeopordizing their chances of having another.  2 abortions and you can say bye bye to kids. 

source?

planned parenthood.  go to the clinic and ask, you'll see.  is it bad that i know this?
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: Lampshade Punk on April 12, 2007, 09:57:46 PM
planned parenthood.  go to the clinic and ask, you'll see.  is it bad that i know this?

Only if you think it's bad.

personally i'm glad i know.  especially for threads like this because it makes me sound smart. 
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: Lampshade Punk on April 12, 2007, 09:59:20 PM
excuse me.  you can actually have two but it greatly reduces the risk of being able to become pregnant.  3 and your done for sure.  sorry to mix it up but I'm absolutely sure of this now.  the other just didn't seem right.  
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: wannaB1L on April 12, 2007, 10:00:54 PM
You have to agree that all abortions produce a death.

Inasmuch as male masturbation or the female menstrual cycle produces a death.

hth.

I never knew that sperm had a heartbeat, or had brain activity, or little arms and finger buds. Anyone who cannot admit that a fetus is differant than an egg or sperm is lying to themselves. Didn't we all watch that video in Jr High?
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: brown on April 12, 2007, 10:01:01 PM
You have to agree that all abortions produce a death.

Inasmuch as male masturbation or the female menstrual cycle produces a death.

hth.

It doesn't because a fetus is human (if not a person).
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: brown on April 12, 2007, 10:09:44 PM
abortion always ends in the murder of a baby. killing = death.

piss off.

You have to agree that all abortions produce a death.

Not in the context of this-- your!-- thread.

Good point.  I should have asked if it is safer for the mother.
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: wannaB1L on April 12, 2007, 10:10:13 PM
EKG of babies heartbeat 18 days after conception. Abortion is the murder of an unborn baby. Half of those murdered are women. It looks like a child after a few weeks, it looks human.
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: wannaB1L on April 12, 2007, 10:13:25 PM
You have to agree that all abortions produce a death.

Inasmuch as male masturbation or the female menstrual cycle produces a death.

hth.

I never knew that sperm had a heartbeat, or had brain activity, or little arms and finger buds. Anyone who cannot admit that a fetus is differant than an egg or sperm is lying to themselves. Didn't we all watch that video in Jr High?

Uh, no.

I didn't go to Pat Robertson Junior High.  

neither did I, it was sex ed, and we saw a sperm enter an egg. then it starts repruducing cells. Next thing you know there is a heart beat 18 days later.
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: brown on April 12, 2007, 10:14:46 PM

I never knew that sperm had a heartbeat, or had brain activity, or little arms and finger buds. Anyone who cannot admit that a fetus is differant than an egg or sperm is lying to themselves. Didn't we all watch that video in Jr High?

mmmhmmm.  And what's the earliest point in a pregnancy that a viable child might be born?

The new record is 21 weeks:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17304274/site/newsweek/

As science gets better, fetuses start turning into people.
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: wannaB1L on April 12, 2007, 10:15:57 PM
I don't know, but when is the earliest stage we can remove a kangaroo from it's mothers pouch and have it live. If I pull a little kangaroo out of there and squash it, is it not murder. Was'nt Scott Peterson convicted of double homocide?
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: brown on April 12, 2007, 10:21:39 PM
The new record is 21 weeks:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17304274/site/newsweek/

As science gets better, fetuses start turning into people.

Indeed, 21 weeks is a bit over half a pregnancy; now what are the potentially horrible side effects of being born that premature?  How many babies survive when born that premature?

1. The side effects are not as bad as being dead.

2. This was the first baby and not likely the last.
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: Miss P on April 12, 2007, 10:22:25 PM
excuse me.  you can actually have two but it greatly reduces the risk of being able to become pregnant.  3 and your done for sure.  sorry to mix it up but I'm absolutely sure of this now.  the other just didn't seem right.  

Making things up as you go along is fun, but this is absurd.  There are some studies that suggest that abortions -- and especially multiple abortions -- make cervical damage marginally (from 1-15%) more likely than incidental cervical damage in women who have not had abortions, and some kinds of cervical damage lead to infertility.  But no one at Planned Parenthood told you that any number of abortions would prevent future pregnancies.  You know that.  

Quote from: Planned Parenthood - Abortion Risks and Side Effects
Future Pregnancies

Safe, uncomplicated abortion should not affect your ability to have a child in the future. In future pregnancies, it does not

-cause birth defects
-cause premature birth or low infant birth weight
-make ectopic (not in the uterus) pregnancy more likely
-make miscarriage more likely
-make the risk of infant death more likely

Having more than one abortion also should not affect future pregnancies.

Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: Miss P on April 12, 2007, 10:24:01 PM
Also, at least 99% of abortions happen before this point of putative fetal viability.  And the vast majority (95%) happen in the first trimester.
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: wannaB1L on April 12, 2007, 10:24:11 PM
abortion = scarred uteruses and dead babies. Abortion stops a heartbeat. I have no respect for women that kill their babies and feel no remorse. I feel bad that the guilty ones bought all the "pro choice" lies.
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: brown on April 12, 2007, 10:30:41 PM
I heard about this story when it aired.  Every single day the doctors had to decide whether or not to abandon the baby as hopeless.  It's not a normal outcome in any sense.

Yet.  But as technology advances...

Total regression:  sperm and egg are viable; masturbation and menstrual cycle are murder.

Sperm is not a developing human life.   An egg is not a developing human life.
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: brown on April 12, 2007, 10:31:52 PM
I disagree.

Didn't want to touch it, but yes, there are worse things than not existing.

I think you can only decide that for your own life.
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: brown on April 12, 2007, 10:32:53 PM
I would also add that the law can and often does define the unlawful killing of a fetus as homicide while still not defining the fetus as a human being.

The new record is 21 weeks:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17304274/site/newsweek/

As science gets better, fetuses start turning into people.

Indeed, 21 weeks is a bit over half a pregnancy; now what are the potentially horrible side effects of being born that premature?  How many babies survive when born that premature?

1. The side effects are not as bad as being dead.

2. This was the first baby and not likely the last.

I disagree.

So, what class of people, now living, do you suggest we exterminate?
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: wannaB1L on April 12, 2007, 10:34:05 PM
I disagree.

Didn't want to touch it, but yes, there are worse things than not existing.

not existing is hell. I think that seeing one sunset, smelling one rose, seeing one cloud drift, hearing wind through trees for a moment, hearing laughter for a second would be a fair price to pay for a terrible end to life. This would be a worse case scenario. At best they end up in love and have children of their own. Everyone deserves a chance, even if there are some failures. That is life, but give people a chance at life.
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: wannaB1L on April 12, 2007, 10:37:06 PM
I disagree.

Didn't want to touch it, but yes, there are worse things than not existing.

sounds like a slippery slope. Kinda Nazi-ish. Who are you to decide?
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: brown on April 12, 2007, 10:37:28 PM
I heard about this story when it aired.  Every single day the doctors had to decide whether or not to abandon the baby as hopeless.  It's not a normal outcome in any sense.

Yet.  But as technology advances...

Total regression:  sperm and egg are viable; masturbation and menstrual cycle are murder.

Sperm is not a developing human life.   An egg is not a developing human life.

Combine the two bolded statements.  One day, I may have children through an asexual process... you know... as technology advances.

Here's the difference:  For a very long time, many, many fetuses have been viable since day one (in the womb).  This is the case today.  I'm not aware of any current asexual human reproduction.
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: Miss P on April 12, 2007, 10:38:39 PM
To what extent, then, do you believe it is our moral duty to devote resources to pushing independent fetal viability earlier in the pregnancy?  Should we work toward asexual reproduction?  Is anything less murder?
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: brown on April 12, 2007, 10:39:35 PM
Sperm is not a developing human life.   An egg is not a developing human life.

A fetus, like a sperm or an egg, is a potential human life.  What's the point of this framing game?

I disagree.

Didn't want to touch it, but yes, there are worse things than not existing.

I think you can only decide that for your own life.

You said that death is worse than these consequences.  If you can say that, I don't see why I can't say that these consequences are in fact worse than death.

You're close to making a point, however.

Well, from a legal standpoint, anything else is a subset of death.
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: Lampshade Punk on April 12, 2007, 10:41:10 PM
as Mr. King once said "can't we all just get along?"
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: brown on April 12, 2007, 10:42:39 PM
To what extent, then, do you believe it is our moral duty to devote resources to pushing independent fetal viability earlier in the pregnancy?  Should we work toward asexual reproduction?  Is anything less murder?

Hmmm...I wish we could have this conversation over coffee.  I'll just say that our moral duty is to take care that we don't unjustly kill people.
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: Lampshade Punk on April 12, 2007, 10:43:17 PM
that was the great, prophetic, Rodney King, not Dr. King.
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: brown on April 12, 2007, 10:43:37 PM
Here's the difference:  For a very long time, many, many fetuses have been viable since day one (in the womb).  This is the case today.  I'm not aware of any current asexual human reproduction.

Cite one instance that a viable baby was born after one day. 

Why?
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: wannaB1L on April 12, 2007, 10:44:08 PM
I disagree.

Didn't want to touch it, but yes, there are worse things than not existing.

not existing is hell. I think that seeing one sunset, smelling one rose, seeing one cloud drift, hearing wind through trees for a moment, hearing laughter for a second would be a fair price to pay for a terrible end to life. This would be a worse case scenario. At best they end up in love and have children of their own. Everyone deserves a chance, even if there are some failures. That is life, but give people a chance at life.

Life is hell.  Nonexistence is arguably more pleasant than existence even in the best of circumstances.  Now destroy the quality of that life.  Your experiences with sunsets, grass, and clouds are irrelevant.

Life is beautiful. I have come to look on pain, sorrow and heartache as being a fundamental and a beautiful part of life as happiness, and love and joy. I can remember as a young man being destroyed by something. But none of it mattered when I surfed until night. Saw that red sunset change colors a dozen times. I saw colors that have no names. I dropped in frontside and drove down the line. I saw the stars come out. And I knew that I had life, and there was a future. There were going to be years to come.
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: brown on April 12, 2007, 10:45:33 PM
Life is hell.  Nonexistence is arguably more pleasant than existence even in the best of circumstances. 

clearly, you don't believe that.
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: Miss P on April 12, 2007, 10:45:53 PM
Life is beautiful. I have come to look on pain, sorrow and heartache as being a fundamental and a beautiful part of life as happiness, and love and joy. I can remember as a young man being destroyed by something. But none of it mattered when I surfed until night. Saw that red sunset change colors a dozen times. I saw colors that have no names. I dropped in frontside and drove down the line. I saw the stars come out. And I knew that I had life, and there was a future. There were going to be years to come.

I don't believe in the liberal lie that all civilizations are equal. Also the Islamo-Fascists would first cut the throuts/ toss off of minarets the Liberals, communists, femminists, hippies, gays- and because I am a Republican and an American and a human- I think this would be wrong. Thus I have had enough of them- I say "Israel- bomb 'em into the stone age as they seem to have a stone age mentality. You cannot make peace with them- you tried and failed. So now it is time to beat them at their own game and fight fire with fire.
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: brown on April 12, 2007, 10:46:22 PM
Here's the difference:  For a very long time, many, many fetuses have been viable since day one (in the womb).  This is the case today.  I'm not aware of any current asexual human reproduction.

Cite one instance that a viable baby was born after one day. 

Why?

Because you said many fetuses have been viable since day one.

Yes, in the womb (is what I said).
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: Miss P on April 12, 2007, 10:47:01 PM
To what extent, then, do you believe it is our moral duty to devote resources to pushing independent fetal viability earlier in the pregnancy?  Should we work toward asexual reproduction?  Is anything less murder?

Hmmm...I wish we could have this conversation over coffee.  I'll just say that our moral duty is to take care that we don't unjustly kill people.

What is a just killing?

Or a person, for that matter.
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: brown on April 12, 2007, 10:48:35 PM
To what extent, then, do you believe it is our moral duty to devote resources to pushing independent fetal viability earlier in the pregnancy?  Should we work toward asexual reproduction?  Is anything less murder?

Hmmm...I wish we could have this conversation over coffee.  I'll just say that our moral duty is to take care that we don't unjustly kill people.

What is a just killing?

Or a person, for that matter.

Like I said, coffee.
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: Lampshade Punk on April 12, 2007, 10:50:26 PM
the lack of reverance for Mr. Rodney King is disturbing.
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: brown on April 12, 2007, 10:52:30 PM
Life is hell.  Nonexistence is arguably more pleasant than existence even in the best of circumstances. 

clearly, you don't believe that.

Clearly?  False.  I do believe that.  What's your evidence to the contrary?



Here's the difference:  For a very long time, many, many fetuses have been viable since day one (in the womb).  This is the case today.  I'm not aware of any current asexual human reproduction.

Cite one instance that a viable baby was born after one day. 

Why?

Because you said many fetuses have been viable since day one.

Yes, in the womb (is what I said).

That's not what viability means.

1. My evidence is that you haven't killed yourself.  If you really believed it, you'd be gone by now.

2. The phrase, "viable outside the womb" is a used quite often.  I don't see why I can't say a fetus is viable inside the womb.
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: wannaB1L on April 12, 2007, 10:55:38 PM
Life is beautiful. I have come to look on pain, sorrow and heartache as being a fundamental and a beautiful part of life as happiness, and love and joy. I can remember as a young man being destroyed by something. But none of it mattered when I surfed until night. Saw that red sunset change colors a dozen times. I saw colors that have no names. I dropped in frontside and drove down the line. I saw the stars come out. And I knew that I had life, and there was a future. There were going to be years to come.

I don't believe in the liberal lie that all civilizations are equal. Also the Islamo-Fascists would first cut the throuts/ toss off of minarets the Liberals, communists, femminists, hippies, gays- and because I am a Republican and an American and a human- I think this would be wrong. Thus I have had enough of them- I say "Israel- bomb 'em into the stone age as they seem to have a stone age mentality. You cannot make peace with them- you tried and failed. So now it is time to beat them at their own game and fight fire with fire.

red herring indeed. apples and oranges. surgar and spice. there was a woman in Israel hit by a rocket on her balcony. Why shouldn't have Israel knocked out power and bridges and roads that helped their enemies? If someone came into my house and attacked me I would try to destroy them. Maybe an argument can be made against the nuking of Japan. that might be akin to killing the attacker, by firebombing his house while his children are home. But one must be able to do something. One must take a stand. What would you have done? Have the UN condemn the attacks on Israel? Now back to the topic (put red herring back into the freezer).
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: brown on April 12, 2007, 11:01:57 PM
Life is hell.  Nonexistence is arguably more pleasant than existence even in the best of circumstances. 

clearly, you don't believe that.

Clearly?  False.  I do believe that.  What's your evidence to the contrary?

My evidence is that you haven't killed yourself.  If you really believed it, you'd be gone by now.

False.

1.  See "arguably."
2.  Still doesn't follow.  Why not?  Because (a) it would be painful (and there is no guarantee of success--this is often the case, and tends to be disastrous) and (b) nonexistence can't be isolated (i.e. because I exist my future nonexistence through suicide, even if qualifying as nonexistence, would cause suffering for people I don't care to cause to suffer).

1. Well, if you really want to emphasize "arguably", then you're not saying much since most things are arguable.

2. Then you're back to my point where, at best, you can only decide that for yourself.
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: wannaB1L on April 12, 2007, 11:10:54 PM

red herring indeed. apples and oranges. surgar and spice. there was a woman in Israel hit by a rocket on her balcony. Why shouldn't have Israel knocked out power and bridges and roads that helped their enemies? If someone came into my house and attacked me I would try to destroy them. Maybe an argument can be made against the nuking of Japan. that might be akin to killing the attacker, by firebombing his house while his children are home. But one must be able to do something. One must take a stand. What would you have done? Have the UN condemn the attacks on Israel? Now back to the topic (put red herring back into the freezer).

Because you're a nazi fucktard?  That works for me.

So what's the difference if a baby dies in Iraq because of our ahem, help, compared to a few cells going flush?
enough red herrings- stick with the topic- but I will humor you one more time before me and my dog take our pisses. To stop a greater evil that gassed Kurdish villages, had women raped in front of their husbands, childrens ears cut off in front of parents, mass killing if Shia, Soccer teams shot for losing a game, paying Palestinian suicide bombers families, supporting terrorist like the one they found in Bagdad who was responsible for Achille Laurel, that had invaded his neighbors in the past, to stopp people that blow up families in market places. And Americans don't purposefully kill children. And when we do, we cry and we send them to our medics, and we even help the sick ones we find.

You see my friend killing is not the same as purposeful, willful murder. Now my dog and I are going outside for a pee, as we love life and the out of doors and nature...and we hate things unatural like killing babies just because.

there was a quote forgot by who something like this "There is nothing worse than war except for the mind that thinks that there is nothing worth fighting for."

Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: brown on April 12, 2007, 11:15:57 PM
So if death is the worst possible outcome (which I don't buy) how does this weigh in against the answer to the initial question posed?   

Also, what's safer:  abortion or Aslan?
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: wannaB1L on April 12, 2007, 11:18:23 PM
and how many future babies will live because no more gassing villages, genocide against the Marsh Arabs, killing Kuwaiti children in hospitals, suicide bombings, no vicious uday and khusay to kill for another generation. We killed some innocent civilians in Germany, but we saved so many Jews and English babies. And in the long run we saved the Germans. PWND  
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: Miss P on April 12, 2007, 11:30:14 PM
and how many future babies will live because no more gassing villages, genocide against the Marsh Arabs, killing Kuwaiti children in hospitals, suicide bombings, no vicious uday and khusay to kill for another generation. We killed some innocent civilians in Germany, but we saved so many Jews and English babies. And in the long run we saved the Germans. PWND  

Oh, the veneration of human life!  Glory in God!

Good luck Israel and kick some a$$.



Quote
HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH
Indiscriminate Bombardment
By Kenneth Roth, Executive Director Human Rights Watch, published in Jerusalem Post

Why did so many Lebanese civilians lose their lives to Israeli bombing? The government line is that the IDF was doing the best it could, but these deaths were the result of Hizbullah hiding its rockets and fighters among civilians. But that assertion doesn't stand up to the facts.

Of course Hizbullah did sometimes hide among civilians, breaching its duty to do everything feasible to protect civilians and possibly committing the war crime of deliberate shielding, but that's not the full story.  
 
Human Rights Watch investigated some two dozen bombing incidents in Lebanon involving a third of the civilians who by then had been killed. In none of those cases was Hizbullah anywhere around at the time of the attack.  
 
How do we know? Through the same techniques we use in war zones around the world to cut through people's incentive to lie. We probed and cross-checked multiple eyewitnesses, many of whom talked openly of Hizbullah's presence elsewhere but were adamant that Hizbullah was not at the scene of the attack. We examined bombing sites for evidence of military activity such as trenches, destroyed rocket launchers and military equipment, or dead or wounded fighters. If we were unsure, we gave the IDF the benefit of the doubt.  
 
The case of Kana shows how this works. After two Israeli missiles killed 28 civilians in a house there on July 30, the IDF initially charged that Hizbullah had been firing rockets from the vicinity of the targeted house. But Human Rights Watch investigators who visited Kana found that there had been no Hizbullah presence near the bomb site at the time of the attack. IDF sources later admitted to an Israeli military correspondent that Hizbullah wasn't shooting at all from Kana that day.  
 
In some cases, the IDF trotted out video of Hizbullah firing rockets from a village. But it has yet to show that Hizbullah was in a civilian building or vehicle at the time of an Israeli attack that killed civilians. Blaming Hizbullah is simply not an honest explanation for why so many Lebanese civilians died. And without honest introspection, the IDF can't meet its duty and self-professed goal to do everything possible to spare civilians.  
 
Hizbullah certainly should not be let off the hook. Human Rights Watch has conducted detailed investigations of the militia's obvious war crimes - its deliberate efforts to kill Israeli civilians by indiscriminately targeting Israeli cities. Israel had every right to try to stop Hizbullah from raining death and destruction on its people. But under international humanitarian law, just as Israeli abuses in Lebanon did not justify reprisals against Israeli civilians, so Hizbullah's war crimes did not justify Israel shirking its duty to protect Lebanese civilians.  
 
So what was the cause of so many civilian deaths? The IDF seemed to assume that, because it gave warnings to civilians to evacuate southern Lebanon, anyone who remained was a Hizbullah fighter. When the IDF saw a civilian home or vehicle that Hizbullah might use, it often bombed, even if, as in Kana, Srifa, Marwahin, or Aitaroun, there was no evidence that Hizbullah was in fact using the structure or vehicle at the time of attack. In weighing the military advantage of an attack against the civilian cost, the IDF seemed to assume no civilian cost, because all the "innocent" civilians had supposedly fled. Through these calculations, the IDF effectively turned southern Lebanon into a free-fire zone.  
 
But giving warning, as required by international humanitarian law, does not relieve the attacker of the duty to distinguish between civilians and combatants and to target only combatants. Otherwise, Palestinian militants might "warn" Israeli settlers to leave their West Bank settlements and then be justified in attacking anyone who remained. Hizbullah might have done the same in northern Israel.  
 
Nor does an evacuation warning mean that all civilians did in fact flee. Many remained in southern Lebanon because of age, infirmity, inability to afford exorbitant taxi fares charged for evacuation, or fear of becoming yet another roadside casualty of IDF bombing. As a result, the IDF's indiscriminate bombardment had devastating consequences for civilians.  
 
So how should the IDF fight such a war? By complying with international humanitarian law. That means not treating southern Lebanon as a free-fire zone. It means attacking civilian structures and vehicles only if there is evidence that Hizbullah is actually using them. Even then, it means making serious efforts to determine whether civilian structures and vehicles contain civilians, and attacking only if the definite military advantage is so powerful that it justifies their deaths.  
 
Above all, it means treating Lebanese civilians as human beings whose lives are as valuable as Israelis'. Protecting Israelis from Hizbullah's deadly rockets is vital, but it does not justify indifference to the taking of civilian lives on the other side of the border.  
 
August 20, 2006  
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: wannaB1L on April 12, 2007, 11:32:37 PM
I have lived in an orphanage overseas, in a country that makes Mexico look rich. I have a maternal grandfather that was an orphan. My uncle adopted a druggies 4 yr old child, my lil brother was adopted by my parents, my exgirlfriends mom was adopted by a super rich Stanford educated family, I worked on a poor Indian reservation with children whose parents were 50% druggies and alcoholics. All these people were happy to be alive. Life was not perfect for them all, but it was life!!! Life is precious. Abortion is murder.
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: wannaB1L on April 12, 2007, 11:37:15 PM
how many thousands of children died because we attacked the Fatherland? Again differant than purposeful willful murder. See post above for same answer that you cannot answer. PWND Good night 1136 on westcoast.
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: Miss P on April 12, 2007, 11:37:59 PM
Life is precious.

bomb 'em into the stone age
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: wannaB1L on April 12, 2007, 11:41:07 PM
I have lived in an orphanage overseas, in a country that makes Mexico look rich. I have a maternal grandfather that was an orphan. My uncle adopted a druggies 4 yr old child, my lil brother was adopted by my parents, my exgirlfriends mom was adopted by a super rich Stanford educated family, I worked on a poor Indian reservation with children whose parents were 50% druggies and alcoholics. All these people were happy to be alive. Life was not perfect for them all, but it was life!!! Life is precious. Abortion is murder.

Okay, if abortion is murder and you're so much in favor of adoption, why don't you go to an abortion clinic and instead of telling the women going in how wrong and misguided they are by the "pro-choice" lies, offer to adopt all of their children instead. Tell them you will take their children in, feed and clothe them, and provide for their college education. Anything less is half-assing it, and you should stay the @#!* out of their business.

I will adopt.In fact I will someday have a house full of them. I am a broke ass now. And that girl I mentioned earlier who had two abortions and was going to maybe have a third- I offered t buy her baby for $2000 (all I could afford). I also said that my parents would probably give her $10000 for her baby. She decided that she might become sterile and kept that one. PWND
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: brown on April 13, 2007, 08:22:05 AM
Life is hell.  Nonexistence is arguably more pleasant than existence even in the best of circumstances. 

clearly, you don't believe that.

Clearly?  False.  I do believe that.  What's your evidence to the contrary?

My evidence is that you haven't killed yourself.  If you really believed it, you'd be gone by now.

False.

1.  See "arguably."
2.  Still doesn't follow.  Why not?  Because (a) it would be painful (and there is no guarantee of success--this is often the case, and tends to be disastrous) and (b) nonexistence can't be isolated (i.e. because I exist my future nonexistence through suicide, even if qualifying as nonexistence, would cause suffering for people I don't care to cause to suffer).

1. Well, if you really want to emphasize "arguably", then you're not saying much since most things are arguable.

2. Then you're back to my point where, at best, you can only decide that for yourself.

Causing people to suffer?  That doesn't even apply.  You're smarter than this.  The fetus doesn't suffer.  The mother chooses to abort her pregnancy because she will suffer less by doing that than by continuing it.  How is the analogy at all meaningful or relevant?

That's not what I was getting at.  I shouldn't have bolded so much.  I should have just bolded the "I."  The point was that your subjective desires affect the pleasantness.

By the way, who are you--thinking you can talk to me with that tone?

Edit:  I can't believe I didn't realize it was you.
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: skeeball on April 13, 2007, 08:28:58 AM
Tag
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: brown on April 13, 2007, 09:38:17 AM
neat

" The prospect of all-female conception"

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_technology/article2444462.ece

Yeah, a classmate sent me that this morning.
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: brown on April 13, 2007, 09:43:40 AM
Yeah, a classmate sent me that this morning.

I don't know if it qualifies as the asexual reproduction we brought up yesterday, but it's neat on its own.

I hear ya.
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: This is wrong. on April 13, 2007, 03:45:18 PM
Life is hell.  Nonexistence is arguably more pleasant than existence even in the best of circumstances. 

clearly, you don't believe that.

Clearly?  False.  I do believe that.  What's your evidence to the contrary?

1. My evidence is that you haven't killed yourself.  If you really believed it, you'd be gone by now.

<---really unclear as to why you think that he wouldn't try and fail.
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: darlinalexi on April 16, 2007, 07:32:09 AM
This thread turned into the Liberty University Thread in no time fast.


In many cases, having a child before you are ready to support a new life can ruin three lives: that of the mother, the father, and the child.  Do you really think uneducated people who have multiple children at young ages and in poverty are really doing what's best for all involved and for society as a whole?

I believe I read once that as abortion rates rise, crime levels have been reduced. Also, it's a continuing cycle. Those who have children while young (imo especially those who get married just for the sake of the child) are much more likely for the same thing to happen to their kids.

Abortion is not anyone's first choice, but it makes sense in many cases.   Those who see absolute right and absolute wrong here are probably not looking at the whole issue.  Furthermore, imo, men should not be able to have a say in this issue as it will never be a decision that they have to make.
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: vercingetorix on April 16, 2007, 12:32:18 PM
  Furthermore, imo, men should not be able to have a say in this issue as it will never be a decision that they have to make.
[/quote]

whaaa? this is precisely what is wrong with the rabid left's opinion of abortion.  it takes two people to make a child, the choice about whether it lives or dies should be a choice both make...if mom decides she wants it and dad doesn't, can dad refuse to pay child support?  if dad wants the kid and mom does not then she just gets to kill it...yep that sounds fair.
Title: Re: Is abortion safer than childbirth?
Post by: brown on April 16, 2007, 06:24:30 PM
there's also the other side:  if she wants it and he doesn't, he still has to pay.