Law School Discussion

Law Students => Incoming 1Ls => Topic started by: Matthies on March 25, 2007, 12:19:53 PM

Title: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Matthies on March 25, 2007, 12:19:53 PM
The purpose of this thread is to discuss general questions, strategies and obstacles related to law schools outside the top 50. The majority of law students go to these schools, yet there is very little in the way of books or threads discussing topics specific to these level schools. A lot of the advice given to students at top schools does not work down here, or is just plain BAD for people not going to them.

Here Rev and I will try to answer questions and give advice from what we have personally learned thus far.

As to me, I have three years and 70 or so credits at T2 school ranked 70ish I think.

This thread is more about general strategies and questions, than school specific questions, so save those for another thread.

If you will be attending a school outside of the top 50, or a currently a student at one, please feel free to ask any questions and post any advice you might have.

Thanks!

Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on March 25, 2007, 12:50:15 PM
here i will attempt to not blatantly flirt with the ladies or drop sarcastic one-liners; but will endeavor to actually give good advice.

i am an older, nontrad 1L at a t3 school, dead middle of my class.  why on earth would you want advice from someone in the middle of his class?  because at least half of you will be joining me there.  only one-fourth can be top 25% and one-fourth can be bottom 25%.  the rest of you will be taking a seat next to me.

so ask away.


Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: slacker on March 25, 2007, 02:40:36 PM
here i will attempt to not blatantly flirt with the ladies or drop sarcastic one-liners; but will endeavor to actually give good advice.

Darn it! I wanted this job. Oh well.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on March 25, 2007, 02:42:02 PM
here i will attempt to not blatantly flirt with the ladies or drop sarcastic one-liners; but will endeavor to actually give good advice.

Darn it! I wanted this job. Oh well.


no, look i said attempt *not* to -- the job is open in this thread
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: PhiMuAmberkins on March 25, 2007, 02:49:14 PM
How's UALR Rev?  I'll be at Fayetteville in the Fall...finally got all my stuff taken care of and *hopefully* will be graduating soon. 

On a advice/question/something actually pertaining to this thread note, I'm so incredibly confused about grading curves.  My school doesn't curve grades, so I've never experienced this at all.  Anyone care to explain? 
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on March 25, 2007, 02:59:30 PM
good for you!

UALR has a C curve -- i would imagine fayetteville is the same, but i'm not sure.  a C curve means that roughly 50% of the class will receive a C.  our grade distribution worked out somewhat like this:

A - 5-10%
B - 10-15%
C - 50%
D - 10-15%
F - < 5%

a 2.71 is the class median, and works out roughly to 65th out of 131.  on campus interviewers will almost always require a 3.0 or better to grant an interview.  network early is my motto.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: slacker on March 25, 2007, 03:03:53 PM
Rev - gotcha. (I'm reading this board about as well as I'm reading for classes anymore. I figure my summer w/bar-prep will not be fun; this semester is my last bit of 'time off' for a bit.

Curves. The law school curve is a mandatory grading scale. I copied one from the Loyola Chicago web site (not my school, but I found it on a quick search):
The official grade curve (revised as of September 21, 2004) is:
A 5-10%
A- 5-15%
B+ 10-20%
B 20-30%
B- 10-25%
C+ 10-25%
C 5-20%
C- 0-10%
D 0-10%
F 0-5%

This means that for a class that falls into the curve (25 or more students, with some exceptions, I didn't copy all those bits), from 5-10% of the students can get an A. From 5-15% of the class can get an A-. Etc. On the lower end, it's at the instructor's discretion whether or not a C- or lower is awarded.

Some schools don't have a minimum percentage for a grading curve, so the A range might be 0-10%, for example. Also, the number of students in a class for it to fall into the curve can vary. Some schools it could be a higher number such as 40 or 50. For the Loyola curve, it looks like most of the students would fall into the B range, but schools can also change the percentages for what the "average" student gets.

This forced 'only so many people for the best grades' approach tends to make grading very tight. You'll be at school in a section full of people who are used to getting good grades, but only a certain, and fixed, percentage, will be able to get those A's.

Another note about curves, for those who end up on the lower end of things. In law school, people don't usually flunk out, but they can grade out. Again, going on the Loyola information, students need a 1.75 gpa or better their first semester, first year to continue. Post that semester, they need a cumulate 2.0 gpa. That is, if you can't maintain a 2.0 GPA at that school, you'll merit an academic dismissal (ie, grade out).

So, aside from the considerations of who you can interview with, whether you get onto law review, and all that for those with the higher grades, those with the lower grades need to consider if they want to or will be able to continue.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on March 25, 2007, 03:06:14 PM
yeah, loyola chicago is a B curve, so you can see the difference
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: PhiMuAmberkins on March 25, 2007, 03:07:57 PM
Awesome, that helps a lot.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: slacker on March 25, 2007, 03:10:52 PM
One thing I forgot...because curves can vary so much from school to school, a lot of people will probably want to know your class rank. Since that gives your relative place in the pecking order of those on the same curve, it's considered more meaningful, sometimes, to those who just look at numbers. (Which is a lot of would-be employers).
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: slacker on March 25, 2007, 03:33:24 PM
Good points, all, on the curves. I thought of one more thing based on Matthies' comments about "don't expect to be top 25%"...

If you have a scholarship based on maintaining a certain GPA, see where that GPA places you in terms of class ranking. This is especially useful if you're measuring a couple different offers against each other. For example, if one means you need to stay top 25% or you lose it, and another is more top 50% or has no gpa requirement other than good academic standing, this can be an important factor when making final decisions.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on March 25, 2007, 03:39:01 PM
How's UALR Rev?  I'll be at Fayetteville in the Fall...finally got all my stuff taken care of and *hopefully* will be graduating soon. 

On a advice/question/something actually pertaining to this thread note, I'm so incredibly confused about grading curves.  My school doesn't curve grades, so I've never experienced this at all.  Anyone care to explain? 

There are as many different curves as there are law schools. The ones I am familiar with are the mean/median curves. Some schools range from a B+ (top schools) to I have heard a low curve of C-!

The way a mean/median curve works is that the entire class must come out to a mean/median of say 3.0. At my school it works like this: After the exam the prof reads all the tests, they then assign a grade to them. They then take all the grades and add them up, if that does not hit the mean/median of 3.0 for the entire class, they re-grade them. And start taking off points. This is where you can loose points for arbitrary reasons, nothing more than to get the grades to fit into the curve. You may have done A work, but be at the bottom of the A pile, so you get moved to B+ to make the curve work. It can be very aggravating. For there to be X amount of Aís there will need to be Y amount of Cís to get the curve to come out at 3.0.

The curve can save you, or it can kill you, and there is not a lot you can do about it. There are no ďright answersĒ on law school exams (and you donít loose points for being wrong either). The exams are completely subjective, so your grade will vary with how the professor sees your answer. Itís a very different system than undergrad, knowing the material is NOT enough to get an A, there is luck, and knowing the prof to contend with.



another thing that annoys me is with a forced curve, the difference between an A and a C may be as little as a few percentage points.

for example, lets say that there are 100 people in your class. 
the top ten papers in your class of 100 got 96 - 100% of the answers correct.  A's
the next 20% of papers got 91-95% of the answers correct.  B's
you got 90% of the answers correct -- an A in undergrad -- and you got a C.

unfair?  absolutely.  pity the poor bastard with the 80% who got a D-
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: PhiMuAmberkins on March 25, 2007, 03:45:45 PM
Yeah, I'm just a little worried cause I have to be in the top 20% to keep my scholarship (which isn't huge, and seems like it should be bigger, but whatever).  I've never had a problem with that in college, but, like I said, we don't have a curve. 
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: button127 on March 25, 2007, 05:21:53 PM
Rev - Could you please tell us what you feel are the reasons as to why you're in the percentage of the class rank that you are? Do you feel its a direct correlation to the amount of work/study time, or do you think its academically exceptional people outdoing the others.

Do you think that achieving a top 10% class rank was/is possible for you? If you had it to do over what would you have done to secure better grades? Different study tactics, worked alone, worked with a group, studied less, studied more, etc...? Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on March 25, 2007, 07:10:29 PM
Rev - Could you please tell us what you feel are the reasons as to why you're in the percentage of the class rank that you are? Do you feel its a direct correlation to the amount of work/study time, or do you think its academically exceptional people outdoing the others.

Do you think that achieving a top 10% class rank was/is possible for you? If you had it to do over what would you have done to secure better grades? Different study tactics, worked alone, worked with a group, studied less, studied more, etc...? Thanks in advance.



one of the things i had to get over was that there is nothing intriniscally wrong with being in my percentile.  honestly, top half of class isnt that bad for an old guy like me.  i dont know if top 10% is possible for me, and i have to be ok with that, even if i strive for it.

however, to answer your question, i believe that my issues were:

first, i've been out of school for over ten years.  even though i have done a lot of reading and writing during that time, it's not the same as coming right from undergrad.

second, i am extremely adhd but did not request an accomodation for more time.

third, the academic dean thinks i probably studied too much, if thats possible, and got burned out.  i never missed a class, and read every page.  was in the library until closing time every night.

fourth, i think that the learning environment in law school is not the primary way i learn.  i learn best by doing.  ergo, an A and a top 5% (i was 3rd out of 131) in legal writing, and C's in the policy/theory classes.

finally, in contracts (B-), property (C+), civ pro and torts (C) my professors said during conferences, was that i bypassed the simple issues and wrote about the complex ones.  i didnt give the elements of promissory estoppel, for example, because i assumed that from my application of it, the professor would know that i knew it; and i could spend the limited amount of time i had writing about the more complex topics.   every professor told me that although they knew that i knew the basic elements, if it wasnt on paper, i couldnt get credit.

so, for this semester, my plan has been:

first, i cant do too much about being out of school for so long. 

second, i got retested and am asking for the extra time on exams.  i didnt really want to, because i want a level playing field between myself and the other students; but my academic dean said that this does level the playing field - for me.

third, i'm working on more of a balanced life.  i still study quite a bit, but i no longer live in the library.  i go out with my wife, and watch some movies, and kick my younger classmates asses in texas hold em.

fourth, i will write down everything on the exams; all the elements, and then the application.  show the work, just like algebra.

my goal for this semester is to progress to a 3.0, which is top 1/3.  if i dont, its not because i'm a dumbass, or because i dont get it.  *everybody* is smart in law school.  us t3/t4's have professors from harvard (torts) nyu (contracts) etc as well as a t14.  a t3/t4 isnt any easier, and in many cases its harder.  therefore, i've just had to plug along as best i could.  study habits that worked in my undergrad and masters programs dont work in law school.  i will find out during this semester exams whether or not my adjustments helped.

i'm also one of two 1L's interning at a legal services center.  i interview clients, file motions, complaints, answers, counterclaims, the works.  this has benefitted me because it proves that i can do it.  the law really isnt rocket science, and my grades do not reflect my ability or potential to be a good lawyer.  a three-hour closed book exam cant do that.  i mean really -- can you imagine a senior partner coming to a young associate and saying "here is a complicated two page fact pattern.  i want a memo in three hours.  oh, and you cant use any research on it."  sounds insane -- but thats exactly what my law school exams were like.

in addition, i was the full-time honor justice this past year, and wrote three opinions on honor code matters, which my dean praised to the skies.  i've been elected to the student bar executive board for next year, and ran unopposed. i can think analytically, and apply law to facts.  but i do it better when i have time to consider the implications and do appropriate research.

in addition, i refuse to compete against my classmates.  i share notes, pick up extra handouts when theyre absent, listen to their troubles (everybody knows i'm a minister, and i still do my share of counseling).  when i am remembered by my classmates, i want to be remembered as a guy who was always willing to help out -- even if it pushes me down the curve. (and last semester it did -- i gave my outlines to a guy whose computer died a week before finals, and he did better than i -- so what.  life is too short).

finally, i had to learn that a C was actually a "satisfactory" grade -- and that it reflects that i do "get it" and that i really am ok.

and i also firmly believe, as matthies said in another thread, that a good 25% of it is luck.   did you get an exam question that you just happened to spend a little more time on -- or one that happened to be a favorite topic?  never undersetimate the value of hard work -- or of luck.

hope this answered your questions somewhat -- anything else i can do to help, please ask.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Chibundu on March 25, 2007, 10:30:56 PM
Hey Rev,
Great Information. I appreciate it it all. I am also looking at UALR as my top choice. A couple of questions, though. What are the housing prices there. I am looking for some good ol affordable housing. I have seent the info about Barrister Place, but at $450, it is a little more than I want to spend. I would prefer to be around $250/ month. I know might be ridiculous, but I would like to try before I go and get a one bedroom. Also I wont be able to visit before the middle of the summer, so I would also like to know about the library? Work out facilities? Non-law extracurriculars? Lastly, How well are you aware of the job prospects in Houston. I have read that Fayetteville have more jobs outside of Ark, whereas Lil Rock work more in the state. I am not from Ark and I would prefer not to stay in the state. I want to go back home. Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on March 26, 2007, 05:50:12 AM
Hey Rev,
Great Information. I appreciate it it all. I am also looking at UALR as my top choice. A couple of questions, though. What are the housing prices there. I am looking for some good ol affordable housing. I have seent the info about Barrister Place, but at $450, it is a little more than I want to spend. I would prefer to be around $250/ month. I know might be ridiculous, but I would like to try before I go and get a one bedroom. Also I wont be able to visit before the middle of the summer, so I would also like to know about the library? Work out facilities? Non-law extracurriculars? Lastly, How well are you aware of the job prospects in Houston. I have read that Fayetteville have more jobs outside of Ark, whereas Lil Rock work more in the state. I am not from Ark and I would prefer not to stay in the state. I want to go back home. Thanks in advance.


consider, however, that barrister includes all utilities, wireless internet, and you wont spend a nickel on gas to drive to school.  and sometimes its nice having your classmates just down the hall.  there is an elliptical machine, a couple of bikes, a 5-station machine, and free weights on the second floor.

i dont think you'll find a habitable place for 250.  an option is (are you coming to admitted students day?) to find a classmate or two to share rent with.  i honestly think you'll end up spending more than 250 though.

you have access to the main campus gym which is very nice.  the law library is tops, in my opinion.  i havent seen a lot of law libraries, but other people have told me that its better than most theyve seen.  i dont know much about extracurriculars, being an old married guy.  the downtown area is ok, though, i've been to a couple of bars down there.

as far as houston goes, i dont know.  i do know that some 3rd years i was talking to have jobs in dallas and atlanta.  its all about networking.  spend the sumer making some contacts in houston and getting some names of people to apply to for clerkships would be my advice.  if you come to asd, look me up.  good luck!
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: RN to JD on March 26, 2007, 11:11:30 AM
Thanks for such a great thread guys. I will also be attending a T2 (very low to the bottom T2) if I can get my LSAT up. When I was reading about the curve in LS I was also totally lost. This has cleared it up alot. The only curve that was ever used in my school was in one of my chemistry classes (thank God). I have always been so anal about my grades and getting the best scores that I will have to get into a different mindset in LS. A good friend of mine that has a private practice in AR. graduated from University of Memphis 7 or 8 years ago and told me that one of his professors told him not to worry so much because "D means done". He is expecting me to be a basket-case in LS when grades are posted.lol
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Clara Bear on March 26, 2007, 11:33:44 AM
Rev-

I'm starting at UALR this August and I'm way excited.  What kinds of places do OCIs there?  Is it only the big firms from LR?  Also, what are you doing for the summer?  Is it easy to find a paying legal job for the summer?

Thanks for your help! (Thanks to Matthies, too, for starting this thread)
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on March 26, 2007, 12:34:54 PM
Rev-

I'm starting at UALR this August and I'm way excited.  What kinds of places do OCIs there?  Is it only the big firms from LR?  Also, what are you doing for the summer?  Is it easy to find a paying legal job for the summer?

Thanks for your help! (Thanks to Matthies, too, for starting this thread)


yes, only the big firms (plus the military and the attorney general) interview here.  everyone except the military/atty gen require a 3.0 gpa just to interview.  from the oci's, i only know of 3 people who received jobs.  in short, the oci's account for less that 10% of the available jobs.  i certainly wouldn't count on them.

network, network, network.  go to bar association lunches (local firms pay for student meals and sponsor them) and find ways -- any ways -- to meet practicing attorneys.  i have just been elected to executive council for student bar association, and our incoming president has some good ideas, including finding an attorney-mentor for all incoming students.  wont have that done by next fall, but its a start.  in addition, there are only 2 1L's in the FT program interning this year.  We are allowed to do it, but nobody has taken advantage of it.  Center for Arkansas Legal Services is *always* looking for interns -- and they train you to do *actual legal work.*  once you get Rule 15 authorized (second year) you can actually *represent clients in court* -- i cant wait for that myself.

i dont have a job yet -- one of the things i'm stressing about -- but i have some interviews coming up in the next two weeks.

good luck, and see you next fall.

while grades are important in all areas, the only thing any interviewer has asked me about were my rwa (legal writing) and legal research grades.  nobody asked me how i did in torts -- hiring bodies are interested in the practical aspects of law school, and those two classes are pretty much the only ones 1L's get.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Clara Bear on March 26, 2007, 12:50:10 PM
Thanks for the info, Rev!  Do you go to the PCBA luncheons?  If so, you've probably seen me; I'm the one who always takes pictures of the meetings because I'm the photog at the Daily Record.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on March 26, 2007, 12:53:45 PM
Thanks for the info, Rev!  Do you go to the PCBA luncheons?  If so, you've probably seen me; I'm the one who always takes pictures of the meetings because I'm the photog at the Daily Record.


i'm not sure i've been to one of those or not.  i usually attend wherever there is free food, though.  no wonder i've gained 25 pounds this year and am now on a terrible diet.   :P

are you coming to admitted student day in april?  if you sit in on one of our classes, i'm in the middle section, back row.  old guy with hat on backwards, probably making a smart-ass comment about something.  say hello if you get the chance.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Clara Bear on March 26, 2007, 01:42:30 PM
I didn't realize so few people got jobs from OCIs. Luckily, my job puts me in contact with lots of attorneys and other legal types (I work for a legal newspaper), so I'm able to get a jump on networking.

Rev, unfortunately I won't be able to come to ASD in April because I have to work that day. Good luck with the job hunt!
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: jsbowen on March 26, 2007, 01:58:16 PM
tag
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: button127 on March 26, 2007, 06:42:25 PM
Thanks for the reply Rev, great info. I'll have to post some more questions when they come to mind. I've been trying to clear my head of them to focus on my thesis lately :)
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on March 27, 2007, 07:52:26 AM
just so you know:

ualr was the overall winner for the Herbert J. Wechsler National Criminal Law Moot Court Competition hosted by the University at Buffalo, The State University of New York.   There were schools from all over which included such schools as Appalachian School of Law, George Washington, George Mason, Loyola, Charleston, Hofstra, Liberty Univ., Ohio State, Seton Hall, St. Thomas, Dayton, Toledo, Washburn, West Virginia, Whittier, and the schools here in the State of New York.

ualr was also the overall winner of the Hispanic National Moot Court Competition that was held this past weekend in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Some of the schools included: Penn, Northwestern, Univ. of Minn, Emory, Univ. of Illinois, BYU, SMU and those are just the schools that US News and World Reports has ranked in the top 50.   

just because you're going to a t3 doesnt mean that students at higher ranked schools are any better or are more competitive than you.  our little t3 kicked some serious t1 ass this past weekend.  no reason yours cant do the same thing.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Astro on March 27, 2007, 04:23:26 PM
I vote for this thread to be stickied.  Where's GH when you need him?
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Astro on March 27, 2007, 04:40:33 PM
Rev-

I'm starting at UALR this August and I'm way excited.  What kinds of places do OCIs there?  Is it only the big firms from LR?  Also, what are you doing for the summer?  Is it easy to find a paying legal job for the summer?

Thanks for your help! (Thanks to Matthies, too, for starting this thread)



network, network, network.  go to bar association lunches (local firms pay for student meals and sponsor them) and find ways -- any ways -- to meet practicing attorneys.  

Please, please, PLEASE if anyone reading this takes nothing else from this thread, take this to heart. OCI is the WORST way to land a job, networking is the best. Too few of your classmates will network though, they just donít get it until its too late. Network from the beginning of law school and I will promise you, you will have a job by 3L regardless of where you go to school or what your class rank is. Law is about WHO you know, not WHERE you go. Iíll try to post something later on networking, but my spring break is over so its back to the grindÖ


I am very much looking forward to this post.  The sooner I start networking, the better.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Clara Bear on March 27, 2007, 05:21:34 PM
Matthies -- I was reading on another thread that you went to Kinkos and got them to chop the binding off of you casebooks and then divide them up into binders.  I think that's a great idea, but inquiring minds want to know how much something like that would cost?

I'm looking at the backpack I got for Christmas and wondering how a laptop and millions of huge textbooks are going to fit, so anything to save space is a must...
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: somniferum on March 27, 2007, 07:44:29 PM
I thought I'd bump this thread and join in (I'm hoping the OPs don't mind).  I'm currently a 1L at University of Mississippi.  Will be around for the next hour or so taking ?s about anything.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Astro on March 27, 2007, 07:49:24 PM
What's the ranking?
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: somniferum on March 27, 2007, 07:53:51 PM
What's the ranking?


Ole Miss was ranked around 90ish last year IIRC
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on March 27, 2007, 07:55:06 PM
What's the ranking?


Ole Miss was ranked around 90ish last year IIRC


ok, you've met our low standards, then  :D
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Astro on March 27, 2007, 07:55:46 PM
What's the ranking?


Ole Miss was ranked around 90ish last year IIRC

Cool. Thanks.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: somniferum on March 27, 2007, 07:56:08 PM
What's the ranking?


Ole Miss was ranked around 90ish last year IIRC


ok, you've met our low standards, then  :D

well hey there neighbor ;)
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: slacker on March 28, 2007, 01:57:52 AM
I've been intruding on this thread, also. For the record, I'm a 3L at a T2.

What Matties is saying about OCI is spot on. Take advantage of any opportunity you have to get out there an meet people. In my experience, a lot of students don't take advantage of resources such as city bar meetings, law school receptions, etc. Go to places like this; meet people. Sure, it's a hassle. But if it pays off as a job, it's a hassle that's well worth its time.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: RedWine on March 28, 2007, 08:56:59 AM
I have a question regarding networking - I've been trolling the attorney bios on the websites of various firms in my city, and have come across many alums of the school I'll be attending (a T2) who are working in the field I'm interested in.  One in particular had a very similar career to mine before attending law school and graduated recently, so I'd love to get her opinions about the school and her career path.  Also, it would be great to talk to some of the other alums I found who head practice groups in the field.  But is it bad form to just email them out of the blue?  Their email addresses are on the website, so it's not like it's private information, but I don't want to give the wrong impression or bother them unduly.  Should I wait until I'm in school and try to contact them through the alumni office, or see if they show up at networking events?  What would you all recommend?
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Astro on March 28, 2007, 09:12:28 AM
FWIW, I've already emailed some attorneys who graduated from the schools I plan to attend and are working in the area where I will probably be living.  I've gotten a couple of responses and already set up a meeting with one of them. 

They didn't seem to be annoyed at the email.  Just make clear why you'd like to meet with them, that they get to call the shots as to time and place, and keep it brief and to the point so they don't have to spend half their day reading your letter.  Also, as Matthies said, make it implicitly clear that this is not job-trolling, but rather advice-seeking.

Good luck!
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: RedWine on March 28, 2007, 09:21:45 AM
Great!  I only know one or two lawyers in the field I want to practice in, so it would be good to hear other perspectives.  I'm definitely not job-trolling, I just want to start finding my way into the legal community here because, as I've been told by most lawyers I know here, it's much smaller than most people think, and once people start to hear your name, everyone knows who you are before long.  So I'd like to start off on a good note  :)
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: skeeball on March 28, 2007, 09:44:22 AM
TAG.

This is good advice for ANYONE.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: slacker on March 28, 2007, 11:11:10 AM
as I've been told by most lawyers I know here, it's much smaller than most people think, and once people start to hear your name, everyone knows who you are before long. 

This is true in almost every legal market, the law field is small and tight nit, everyone knows eeveryone by at most 2 degrees of seperation. Your rep starts in LS, so be nice, the a-holes in my class already have a bad rep, and when we are all working together in a few years that rep will stay with them.

This is a "for sure." Even in a larger city, the legal community can be small in its own way. Play nice w/the other kids while in school becuase you never know.

As for reputations...yes, we've got some of those at my school, also.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on March 28, 2007, 11:52:41 AM
i've met a number of high-profile attorneys in NA  :P


it's true that the smaller the school (especially a state regional school like ualr) the more people know each other and the more your reputation matters.  dont be "that guy"

go out of your way to be remembered favorably
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on March 28, 2007, 12:05:57 PM
i've met a number of high-profile attorneys in NA  :P


it's true that the smaller the school (especially a state regional school like ualr) the more people know each other and the more your reputation matters.  dont be "that guy"

go out of your way to be remembered favorably

Yea, and don't get drunk with your classmates, save that for your non law school frineds. LS is like HS, everything you did, everyone your hit on, and the places you barfed that weekend, everyone in the class will know about the next Monday morning. Its worse than HS actually. Thursday night pub night is just make a fool of yourself and screw up your rep night at my school.



i hit on everybody, but then i am everybody's pet dirty ol man. so it's more like a "oohhh, how cute!" than "ick, get away you bastard"
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: rukiddin on March 28, 2007, 12:18:06 PM
Tag. This thread is fantastic!
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on March 28, 2007, 12:33:37 PM
Just released from LSAC:

Chuck Norris took a Feb. LSAT. When LSAC realized this, it was disclosed.

Chuck Norris did not write the certifying statement. He simply wrote, "Roundhouse kick". When an LSAC employee read this, her neck was mysteriously snapped. Because other LSAC employees feared touching his test, Chuck Norris received the only 181 in history. He went to Cooley and killed everyone on campus. He then renamed it, "Chuck Norris Law". There is only one class, "Chuck Norris Law". The answer to everything is "Because Chuck Norris said so." The only student who ever left Chuck Norris Law alive is Chuck Norris. Despite this fact, it is the most popular law school in the world.


i actually answered a legal research final exam question with "because chuck norris said so."
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: vap on March 28, 2007, 01:39:03 PM
Did any of you law students choose a T2/3/4 school over a higher-tier school because of financial reasons and then regret the decision?  I could definitely see regretting the decision if grades were too low to keep a scholarship, but what about otherwise?  I'm 99% sure I'm heading for a low T2 with scholarship over T1 (just need "good standing" to keep it), but I'm wondering if I will think "what if" 1, 5, maybe 10 years from now.

The poll in this thread (http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php/topic,84904.0.html) gives some reassurance that not everyone on this board thinks going to the highest ranked school is always the end-all-be-all answer.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: slacker on March 28, 2007, 04:37:49 PM
Matthies' last point -- all hugely relevant stuff. I did something similar. No regrets, either. (And, still have a feeling the powerball is for me...but maybe it's the carbolic smoke ball that I'm thinking of.)
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on March 28, 2007, 04:38:56 PM
i've regretted law school in general, but not the school i chose to attend.  i would make the same choice again.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: somniferum on March 28, 2007, 07:25:13 PM
Did any of you law students choose a T2/3/4 school over a higher-tier school because of financial reasons and then regret the decision?  I could definitely see regretting the decision if grades were too low to keep a scholarship, but what about otherwise?  I'm 99% sure I'm heading for a low T2 with scholarship over T1 (just need "good standing" to keep it), but I'm wondering if I will think "what if" 1, 5, maybe 10 years from now.

The poll in this thread (http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php/topic,84904.0.html) gives some reassurance that not everyone on this board thinks going to the highest ranked school is always the end-all-be-all answer.

I took a full ride at Ole Miss (T2) over Bama (T1) with no $$$.  I've got no regrets, but I'm also in the top 10% with a SA position.  In retrospect, it was a gamble that paid off. Honestly, if I had finished up at the median or worse and was unemployed this summer, I would probably feel differently.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Freak on March 28, 2007, 07:28:04 PM
3L, Depaul 80ish.

I would just like to echo the OCI, I did not attend one OCI function - didn't even pay attention to it - and have a position when I pass the BAR. It's networking and your 2L summer position that make all the difference.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Astro on March 28, 2007, 07:30:35 PM
Did any of you law students choose a T2/3/4 school over a higher-tier school because of financial reasons and then regret the decision?  I could definitely see regretting the decision if grades were too low to keep a scholarship, but what about otherwise?  I'm 99% sure I'm heading for a low T2 with scholarship over T1 (just need "good standing" to keep it), but I'm wondering if I will think "what if" 1, 5, maybe 10 years from now.

The poll in this thread (http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php/topic,84904.0.html) gives some reassurance that not everyone on this board thinks going to the highest ranked school is always the end-all-be-all answer.

I took a full ride at Ole Miss (T2) over Bama (T1) with no $$$.  I've got no regrets, but I'm also in the top 10% with a SA position.  In retrospect, it was a gamble that paid off. Honestly, if I had finished up at the median or worse and was unemployed this summer, I would probably feel differently.


How tough has it been for you to keep that scholarship?
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: somniferum on March 28, 2007, 07:39:59 PM
My scholarship didn't have a minimum grade requirement, it just required me to make "satisfactory academic progress"... whatever that means.

Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Astro on March 28, 2007, 07:42:23 PM
My scholarship didn't have a minimum grade requirement, it just required me to make "satisfactory academic progress"... whatever that means.



Damn.  hahahaha

Well, the same question stands for anyone else who posts in this thread: if you're attending a lower ranked school with a major scholarship, how tough has it been for you to keep that scholarship? 
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Freak on March 28, 2007, 07:53:49 PM
I lost mine, it required a 3.3...really tough first year.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Astro on March 28, 2007, 07:56:38 PM
I lost mine, it required a 3.3...really tough first year.


Ouch.  Did you work hard, or was it a matter of not putting enough into it to get the scholarship back?

I'm also particularly interested in hearing back from those attending T3/T4 schools, if anyone happens upon this thread. 
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Freak on March 28, 2007, 08:14:37 PM
I'm T3 or wait we jumped to a T2.. :P

I worked very hard the first semester, and gave up the second. It really boiled down to legal writing draining me and my time.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on March 29, 2007, 07:30:39 AM
I'm T3 or wait we jumped to a T2.. :P

I worked very hard the first semester, and gave up the second. It really boiled down to legal writing draining me and my time.

Welcome Freak!

Boy thats the truth. legal writing was a total time sink, I spent more time/effort on that class than any other 1L, and it was only worth 2 credits, I did however am jur it, but it hurt my other grades by not putting as much time into them. In retrospect, pick your battles, all that work on 2 credits was not a smart move on my part.



my scholarship only require successful academic progress as well.  i echo matthies and freak with respect to the time legal writing sucks up; as i've spent my entire spring break week on an appellate brief, as well as putting way too much time into it last semester.  i almost did as well, i was 3/131 in that class.  but, that is the only class i was asked about in any interview, besides one person who wanted to know about legal research - the 1 semester hour class.

i had an interview yesterday, and the first thing out of her mouth was 'we were impressed by your writing sample and grade"

so i dunno.  perhaps that is the right battle to fight.

and freak -- a 3.3?  jeebus, i only need a 3.25 to graduate with honors....
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: RN to JD on March 29, 2007, 07:47:52 AM
I thought I'd bump this thread and join in (I'm hoping the OPs don't mind).  I'm currently a 1L at University of Mississippi.  Will be around for the next hour or so taking ?s about anything.

Hey somniferum, I was just wondering if you knew how old the oldest student in 1L is. I know the web site shows avg. age to be 25 or so but what do you actually see on campus? I do expect to be a good bit older than the avg. but it would be nice to have a few more around my age  ;D
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on March 29, 2007, 07:50:59 AM
I thought I'd bump this thread and join in (I'm hoping the OPs don't mind).  I'm currently a 1L at University of Mississippi.  Will be around for the next hour or so taking ?s about anything.

Hey somniferum, I was just wondering if you knew how old the oldest student in 1L is. I know the web site shows avg. age to be 25 or so but what do you actually see on campus? I do expect to be a good bit older than the avg. but it would be nice to have a few more around my age  ;D



here at ualr, i'm 47, and the 2nd oldest.  was the 3rd, but #2 changed to night division.  there is a 53-yo doctor ahead of me.  i dont know where i'd be in the night division, i know there was a chiropractor and a business owner who were both older than me....  doesnt help a lot because it's not your specific school, but still
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: siacollegato on March 29, 2007, 09:24:02 AM
I have nothing of value to contribute. Merely checking in to join the ranks of the T2/3/4.

Still waiting to hear from some places, but looks like I'm going to Seton Hall.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on March 29, 2007, 09:32:26 AM
I have nothing of value to contribute. Merely checking in to join the ranks of the T2/3/4.

Still waiting to hear from some places, but looks like I'm going to Seton Hall.


welcome, and feel free to chime in whenever.


"Law School:  So easy a caveman can do it."
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: RN to JD on March 29, 2007, 09:49:40 AM
I thought I'd bump this thread and join in (I'm hoping the OPs don't mind).  I'm currently a 1L at University of Mississippi.  Will be around for the next hour or so taking ?s about anything.

Hey somniferum, I was just wondering if you knew how old the oldest student in 1L is. I know the web site shows avg. age to be 25 or so but what do you actually see on campus? I do expect to be a good bit older than the avg. but it would be nice to have a few more around my age  ;D



here at ualr, i'm 47, and the 2nd oldest.  was the 3rd, but #2 changed to night division.  there is a 53-yo doctor ahead of me.  i dont know where i'd be in the night division, i know there was a chiropractor and a business owner who were both older than me....  doesnt help a lot because it's not your specific school, but still

Thanks Rev, I kind of have the feeling that this is probably the norm. I'm not really bothered about being around the younger students, it's just that I don't want them to think of me as their MOM and expect to be taken care of lol (I have spent my life taking care of people).  A large majority of my friends now are at least 10-15 years younger than me and we actually have alot in common. Of couse, my 18 yo daughter and her friends love to hang out with me because I'm the "cool mom". I do know of a couple of physicians that have gone to LS at Ole Miss and I believe that there is an nurse there in 2L this year. So maybe I won't be the only token "old person".  ;D
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on March 29, 2007, 09:53:37 AM
I thought I'd bump this thread and join in (I'm hoping the OPs don't mind).  I'm currently a 1L at University of Mississippi.  Will be around for the next hour or so taking ?s about anything.

Hey somniferum, I was just wondering if you knew how old the oldest student in 1L is. I know the web site shows avg. age to be 25 or so but what do you actually see on campus? I do expect to be a good bit older than the avg. but it would be nice to have a few more around my age  ;D



here at ualr, i'm 47, and the 2nd oldest.  was the 3rd, but #2 changed to night division.  there is a 53-yo doctor ahead of me.  i dont know where i'd be in the night division, i know there was a chiropractor and a business owner who were both older than me....  doesnt help a lot because it's not your specific school, but still

Thanks Rev, I kind of have the feeling that this is probably the norm. I'm not really bothered about being around the younger students, it's just that I don't want them to think of me as their MOM and expect to be taken care of lol (I have spent my life taking care of people).  A large majority of my friends now are at least 10-15 years younger than me and we actually have alot in common. Of couse, my 18 yo daughter and her friends love to hang out with me because I'm the "cool mom". I do know of a couple of physicians that have gone to LS at Ole Miss and I believe that there is an nurse there in 2L this year. So maybe I won't be the only token "old person".  ;D

i was a youth/college pastor for a lot of years so i hang out with the kids as a matter of course.  geez, the kids in my band were all 25 years younger than me  ;D

i do have quite a few kids here come to me for counsel/advice; however i'm used to that, and see it somewhat as a responsibility of just being older.

Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: RN to JD on March 29, 2007, 10:08:50 AM
You are a good man Rev.  ;)
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: somniferum on March 29, 2007, 10:39:29 AM
Well, of course the vast majority of people here are in their mid-20s, but there also a good bit of non-trads. Quite a few people in my section are married with kids, or are starting a 2nd career (including one nurse).  Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Freak on March 29, 2007, 11:12:58 AM
I'm T3 or wait we jumped to a T2.. :P

I worked very hard the first semester, and gave up the second. It really boiled down to legal writing draining me and my time.

Welcome Freak!

Boy thats the truth. legal writing was a total time sink, I spent more time/effort on that class than any other 1L, and it was only worth 2 credits, I did however am jur it, but it hurt my other grades by not putting as much time into them. In retrospect, pick your battles, all that work on 2 credits was not a smart move on my part.



my scholarship only require successful academic progress as well.  i echo matthies and freak with respect to the time legal writing sucks up; as i've spent my entire spring break week on an appellate brief, as well as putting way too much time into it last semester.  i almost did as well, i was 3/131 in that class.  but, that is the only class i was asked about in any interview, besides one person who wanted to know about legal research - the 1 semester hour class.

i had an interview yesterday, and the first thing out of her mouth was 'we were impressed by your writing sample and grade"

so i dunno.  perhaps that is the right battle to fight.

and freak -- a 3.3?  jeebus, i only need a 3.25 to graduate with honors....

 >:( >:( oh well it all matters not, I have the end in sight, I will finish the race. If I pass the BAR in 2 tries or less I have a job.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on March 29, 2007, 11:20:18 AM
I'm T3 or wait we jumped to a T2.. :P

I worked very hard the first semester, and gave up the second. It really boiled down to legal writing draining me and my time.

Welcome Freak!

Boy thats the truth. legal writing was a total time sink, I spent more time/effort on that class than any other 1L, and it was only worth 2 credits, I did however am jur it, but it hurt my other grades by not putting as much time into them. In retrospect, pick your battles, all that work on 2 credits was not a smart move on my part.



my scholarship only require successful academic progress as well.  i echo matthies and freak with respect to the time legal writing sucks up; as i've spent my entire spring break week on an appellate brief, as well as putting way too much time into it last semester.  i almost did as well, i was 3/131 in that class.  but, that is the only class i was asked about in any interview, besides one person who wanted to know about legal research - the 1 semester hour class.

i had an interview yesterday, and the first thing out of her mouth was 'we were impressed by your writing sample and grade"

so i dunno.  perhaps that is the right battle to fight.

and freak -- a 3.3?  jeebus, i only need a 3.25 to graduate with honors....

 >:( >:( oh well it all matters not, I have the end in sight, I will finish the race. If I pass the BAR in 2 tries or less I have a job.


that just seemed ridiculously high to me.  perhaps its because youre on a higher curve.  no offense intended
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on March 29, 2007, 11:21:03 AM
You are a good man Rev.  ;)


shhhhhhhhh! for god's sake, dont tell anybody!
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: notmikejones on March 29, 2007, 11:26:48 AM
I have seen alot of people get offers of 7,500$ or 5,000$ per year at Rutgers-Camden but you had to maintain a 3.5 gpa!!!  I think that they basically just give out a ton of these things knowing that only 10% or something will be able to maintain grades that high.  Hell when my dad went to law school he graduated 7th in his class (of around 160-170) with a 3.07gpa.  I think it is VERY important to evaluate the terms and conditions attached to a scholarship, I think some schools want to give people unrealistic expectations.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Astro on March 29, 2007, 12:06:20 PM
I lost a full scholarship as well....needed a 3.0 to keep it, had a 2.94.  I transferred soon after...came down to Case Western/Denver/Lewis Clark.  Chose the lowest ranked and am very happy.  I'm 38.


In that case, I'm posing the same questions to you that I posed to Freak: was it that difficult to keep it, or was it more a case of you not putting in enough work to do so?
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Freak on March 29, 2007, 12:08:18 PM
I'm T3 or wait we jumped to a T2.. :P

I worked very hard the first semester, and gave up the second. It really boiled down to legal writing draining me and my time.

Welcome Freak!

Boy thats the truth. legal writing was a total time sink, I spent more time/effort on that class than any other 1L, and it was only worth 2 credits, I did however am jur it, but it hurt my other grades by not putting as much time into them. In retrospect, pick your battles, all that work on 2 credits was not a smart move on my part.



my scholarship only require successful academic progress as well.  i echo matthies and freak with respect to the time legal writing sucks up; as i've spent my entire spring break week on an appellate brief, as well as putting way too much time into it last semester.  i almost did as well, i was 3/131 in that class.  but, that is the only class i was asked about in any interview, besides one person who wanted to know about legal research - the 1 semester hour class.

i had an interview yesterday, and the first thing out of her mouth was 'we were impressed by your writing sample and grade"

so i dunno.  perhaps that is the right battle to fight.

and freak -- a 3.3?  jeebus, i only need a 3.25 to graduate with honors....

 >:( >:( oh well it all matters not, I have the end in sight, I will finish the race. If I pass the BAR in 2 tries or less I have a job.


that just seemed ridiculously high to me.  perhaps its because youre on a higher curve.  no offense intended

The curve is about a 2.75 average for 1L
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: RN to JD on March 29, 2007, 12:20:35 PM
Well, of course the vast majority of people here are in their mid-20s, but there also a good bit of non-trads. Quite a few people in my section are married with kids, or are starting a 2nd career (including one nurse).  Hope this helps.
Thanks, that does help. I have a niece that works on campus in the publicity dept. and she is going to try to hook up a lunch with the dean for me. She doesn't do the pub. for the  law school, but her best friend does. Maybe this, a stellar LSAT and my winnning personality will help. I really don't think I will have much of a problem fitting in, esp. with other medical people there. Thanks alot.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: RN to JD on March 29, 2007, 12:24:32 PM
I have a lady in my class who is 70ish, her husband was in the class too but he had to drop out becuase he was a volunteer with red Cross and had to go help with Katrina. I know there are 3-4 others at the school in thier 70's, we also have two MD's in my class, one of which is number 1!

I know you probably won't say, but I have to ask. Where do you go to LS?? That sounds like a wonderfully diverse class.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: RN to JD on March 29, 2007, 12:29:18 PM
You are a good man Rev.  ;)


shhhhhhhhh! for god's sake, dont tell anybody!

I was just about to send all of my deliquent Ar. friends to see you for counselling. Oh well, I will just keep it under my cap  ;D
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on March 29, 2007, 12:46:09 PM
You are a good man Rev.  ;)


shhhhhhhhh! for god's sake, dont tell anybody!

I was just about to send all of my deliquent Ar. friends to see you for counselling. Oh well, I will just keep it under my cap  ;D




send the hot ones  ;)
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: RN to JD on March 29, 2007, 12:54:37 PM
You are a good man Rev.  ;)


shhhhhhhhh! for god's sake, dont tell anybody!

I was just about to send all of my deliquent Ar. friends to see you for counselling. Oh well, I will just keep it under my cap  ;D




send the hot ones  ;)

You got it!!  ;)
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: ptown on March 29, 2007, 12:58:52 PM
I lost a full scholarship as well....needed a 3.0 to keep it, had a 2.94.  I transferred soon after...came down to Case Western/Denver/Lewis Clark.  Chose the lowest ranked and am very happy.  I'm 38.


In that case, I'm posing the same questions to you that I posed to Freak: was it that difficult to keep it, or was it more a case of you not putting in enough work to do so?



I was almost in the top 1/3 of my class...around 36%.  I probably could have studied more efficiently, but its just flat out a numbers game.  For example, I got a 91% first term in Legal Writing which was an A.  The following term I was at 92%....B+.  The middle of our class was around a 2.8 and classes like Con Law had means around a 2.3.  With 40% of the students with some form of scholarship dependent on a 3.0, somebody is gonna lose.  

So... this is my take.

True "scholarships" require that you are in "good standing."

Any other money offers with contingencies should be considered "teaser rates"  There is just too much left to chance.  I can't tell you how much more pressure is added to your studies when a bad grade may cost you 30K.  I remember reading in a WUSTL brochure that they guaranteed their scholarships for just that reason, they wanted you to focus on the law and your contribution to the legal community, not your financial aid package.  Lower ranked schools have to offer money to attract high numbers...just the unfortunate facts.  They know their best students (with scholarships) may transfer and that there will be several who lose scholarships with gpas too low to transfer.  I don't think it is a scam, I just think it would be far more fair to let students (especially the younger ones) know that arbitrary grading systems and the abundance of conditional scholarships tied to gpas creates a very tense learning environment.  Like law school isn't tense already!

I guess the simple answer to your question is that I could have been more productive, but I'm not sure that it would have helped.  Had any one of my grades been just a tiny bit higher... I'd still have the scholarship.  

What about scholarships that are only tied to class rank and not GPA?  That is more fair wouldn't you say?

For the scholarship I am taking, I need to stay in the top 50%.  I think that is pretty rational and fair, I mean the school is laying out thousands of dollars for you to go there in the hopes that your success will be theirs when you graduate.  Why should they have to keep dishing out the money if you arn't living up to doing better than the average student? 
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: John Blackthorne on March 29, 2007, 01:04:10 PM

tag

i go to a law school on the cusp of T1, who knows, maybe it will be T2 by monday

taking questions, forcing my opinions down your throat
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: laxlaw on March 29, 2007, 01:06:25 PM
At this point, I do not have much to add to this conversation, but I would like to echo my fears of conditional scholarships.

Right now, I'm debating over a full ride at MSU (3.0), Kent (20k 3.25/10k 3.0) and Cincy (10k/good standing)

I would love the no debt, but I am terrified I'd be stuck in t3 ville michigan for the rest of my life if i dont hit a 3.0 my 1l year.
Being a lifelong MI resident, I can tell you how truly terrifying that prospect is.

This process is so nerve racking.

From first hand knowledge, I can tell you it is worse than athletic recruiting; there is more bull flung at you and a hell of a lot more pressure to perform.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Astro on March 29, 2007, 01:08:58 PM
I lost a full scholarship as well....needed a 3.0 to keep it, had a 2.94.  I transferred soon after...came down to Case Western/Denver/Lewis Clark.  Chose the lowest ranked and am very happy.  I'm 38.


In that case, I'm posing the same questions to you that I posed to Freak: was it that difficult to keep it, or was it more a case of you not putting in enough work to do so?



I was almost in the top 1/3 of my class...around 36%.  I probably could have studied more efficiently, but its just flat out a numbers game.  For example, I got a 91% first term in Legal Writing which was an A.  The following term I was at 92%....B+.  The middle of our class was around a 2.8 and classes like Con Law had means around a 2.3.  With 40% of the students with some form of scholarship dependent on a 3.0, somebody is gonna lose. 

So... this is my take.

True "scholarships" require that you are in "good standing."

Any other money offers with contingencies should be considered "teaser rates"  There is just too much left to chance.  I can't tell you how much more pressure is added to your studies when a bad grade may cost you 30K.  I remember reading in a WUSTL brochure that they guaranteed their scholarships for just that reason, they wanted you to focus on the law and your contribution to the legal community, not your financial aid package.  Lower ranked schools have to offer money to attract high numbers...just the unfortunate facts.  They know their best students (with scholarships) may transfer and that there will be several who lose scholarships with gpas too low to transfer.  I don't think it is a scam, I just think it would be far more fair to let students (especially the younger ones) know that arbitrary grading systems and the abundance of conditional scholarships tied to gpas creates a very tense learning environment.  Like law school isn't tense already!

I guess the simple answer to your question is that I could have been more productive, but I'm not sure that it would have helped.  Had any one of my grades been just a tiny bit higher... I'd still have the scholarship. 


Thanks for the thorough answer!

I suppose I'm also really curious about how difficult it is to maintain that sort of standing in a Tier 4 school.  I'd imagine that the student body is a little bit weaker -- not much, but some. 
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: John Blackthorne on March 29, 2007, 01:09:40 PM
At this point, I do not have much to add to this conversation, but I would like to echo my fears of conditional scholarships.

Right now, I'm debating over a full ride at MSU (3.0), Kent (20k 3.25/10k 3.0) and Cincy (10k/good standing)

I would love the no debt, but I am terrified I'd be stuck in t3 ville michigan for the rest of my life if i dont hit a 3.0 my 1l year.
Being a lifelong MI resident, I can tell you how truly terrifying that prospect is.

This process is so nerve racking.

From first hand knowledge, I can tell you it is worse than athletic recruiting; there is more bull flung at you and a hell of a lot more pressure to perform.

i 3.0 is easy, its a simple trade.  your life as you knew it for grades.  its that easy.  just spend 12 hrs/day 6 days a week in the library, buy and read the supplements, and visit with your profs often
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on March 29, 2007, 01:10:52 PM
At this point, I do not have much to add to this conversation, but I would like to echo my fears of conditional scholarships.

Right now, I'm debating over a full ride at MSU (3.0), Kent (20k 3.25/10k 3.0) and Cincy (10k/good standing)

I would love the no debt, but I am terrified I'd be stuck in t3 ville michigan for the rest of my life if i dont hit a 3.0 my 1l year.
Being a lifelong MI resident, I can tell you how truly terrifying that prospect is.

This process is so nerve racking.

From first hand knowledge, I can tell you it is worse than athletic recruiting; there is more bull flung at you and a hell of a lot more pressure to perform.

i 3.0 is easy, its a simple trade.  your life as you knew it for grades.  its that easy.  just spend 12 hrs/day 6 days a week in the library, buy and read the supplements, and visit with your profs often


did all that and still came up short
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: laxlaw on March 29, 2007, 01:14:09 PM
Wow, that was the most depressing advice I have ever received.

Naturally, I have to assume you're joking/exaggerating A LOT.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: John Blackthorne on March 29, 2007, 01:15:20 PM
I lost a full scholarship as well....needed a 3.0 to keep it, had a 2.94.  I transferred soon after...came down to Case Western/Denver/Lewis Clark.  Chose the lowest ranked and am very happy.  I'm 38.


In that case, I'm posing the same questions to you that I posed to Freak: was it that difficult to keep it, or was it more a case of you not putting in enough work to do so?



I was almost in the top 1/3 of my class...around 36%.  I probably could have studied more efficiently, but its just flat out a numbers game.  For example, I got a 91% first term in Legal Writing which was an A.  The following term I was at 92%....B+.  The middle of our class was around a 2.8 and classes like Con Law had means around a 2.3.  With 40% of the students with some form of scholarship dependent on a 3.0, somebody is gonna lose. 

So... this is my take.

True "scholarships" require that you are in "good standing."

Any other money offers with contingencies should be considered "teaser rates"  There is just too much left to chance.  I can't tell you how much more pressure is added to your studies when a bad grade may cost you 30K.  I remember reading in a WUSTL brochure that they guaranteed their scholarships for just that reason, they wanted you to focus on the law and your contribution to the legal community, not your financial aid package.  Lower ranked schools have to offer money to attract high numbers...just the unfortunate facts.  They know their best students (with scholarships) may transfer and that there will be several who lose scholarships with gpas too low to transfer.  I don't think it is a scam, I just think it would be far more fair to let students (especially the younger ones) know that arbitrary grading systems and the abundance of conditional scholarships tied to gpas creates a very tense learning environment.  Like law school isn't tense already!

I guess the simple answer to your question is that I could have been more productive, but I'm not sure that it would have helped.  Had any one of my grades been just a tiny bit higher... I'd still have the scholarship. 


Thanks for the thorough answer!

I suppose I'm also really curious about how difficult it is to maintain that sort of standing in a Tier 4 school.  I'd imagine that the student body is a little bit weaker -- not much, but some. 


i heard (hearsay) that T4s are more competitive, I am not sure exactly what you mean by weak, because everyone is afraid of being in the bottom half of the class at a T4.  Also, supposedly, the first year is intended to weed people out, so it can be more challenging at a T4 then say a T1.  
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: John Blackthorne on March 29, 2007, 01:19:25 PM
Wow, that was the most depressing advice I have ever received.

Naturally, I have to assume you're joking/exaggerating A LOT.

i know some of the 2L and 3Ls who graded onto law review.  Two thirds of them treated law school like a more-than-full-time job and rarely went out--for the bulk of the semester they immersed themselves in studying.  The other third were either lucky or brilliant.  A friend of mine who is a 3L and on law review partied hard for most of the semester, and then buckled down and studied 12 hrs/day for the last 6 weeks of the semester. 

 
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: somniferum on March 29, 2007, 01:46:44 PM
i 3.0 is easy, its a simple trade.  your life as you knew it for grades.  its that easy.  just spend 12 hrs/day 6 days a week in the library, buy and read the supplements, and visit with your profs often

FWIW (to any scared people) I didn't put in anywhere near that many hours...
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Astro on March 29, 2007, 02:14:08 PM

Thanks for the thorough answer!

I suppose I'm also really curious about how difficult it is to maintain that sort of standing in a Tier 4 school.  I'd imagine that the student body is a little bit weaker -- not much, but some. 


i heard (hearsay) that T4s are more competitive, I am not sure exactly what you mean by weak, because everyone is afraid of being in the bottom half of the class at a T4.  Also, supposedly, the first year is intended to weed people out, so it can be more challenging at a T4 then say a T1. 


You know what I mean, Cheesemonger. 

There's a certain level of comprehension and uptake required to succeed in law school.  While I wouldn't say T4 students are WEAK in and of themselves, it is true that the student body tends to be weaker than schools that are much higher ranked.  It's not a matter of effort.  It's a matter of comprehension and application.

I fully expect the class to be full of paranoid gunners.  I just want to know whether I have to be concerned about large numbers of intelligent sharks circling the waters as well.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Astro on March 29, 2007, 02:15:54 PM
At my former T4 people were really great.  I actively looked for the stupid/weak students...and never found them.  As for competition... Imagine that roughly half your enrollment enters with contingent scholarships, statistically roughly half of thiose will lose them.  Then throw into the hopper that the school offers significant scholarships to those who end up in the top 15% of the class, about half have dreams of a transfer to a higher ranked school, and then finish the whole thing off with the fact that only the top 10 or so really have a realistic chance of cracking the BIGLAW ranks.  All of course have a potential six figure debt...

Not to mention nobody really wants to be the bottom of the class and at many T4s such a placement can flunk you out.  I'd say that is pretty competitive.


This is more what I was looking for.

I never expected these students to be stupid.  That said, how do they compare to your new school?
 
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: RN to JD on March 29, 2007, 02:22:48 PM
I have a lady in my class who is 70ish, her husband was in the class too but he had to drop out becuase he was a volunteer with red Cross and had to go help with Katrina. I know there are 3-4 others at the school in thier 70's, we also have two MD's in my class, one of which is number 1!

I know you probably won't say, but I have to ask. Where do you go to LS?? That sounds like a wonderfully diverse class.

I'm at Denver, I don't keep it a secreate, I stand by everything I say on here, the good and the bad, so I'm OK with saying where I go.

Also I think Valpo is dead on about scholorships, I however, never got the chance to loose any money, cuase I never got any in the first place. :)

On a side note, Matthies was a huge help in choosing my transfer destination.  Almost sold me on Denver... even though family and friends were all on the coast!  I really did appreciate the detailed lay of the land regarding Denver it was a huge help.

Denver sounds really great. I don't know anything about the school or rank (which rank means nothing to me) but I know it would be a great place to live. My family roots (husband) are so deep in Ms., I really have no other choice except Ole Miss unless I want to get a divorce and move away with my daughter. I am a die hard Ole Miss fan though. Hotty Toddy
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: RN to JD on March 29, 2007, 02:25:55 PM
i 3.0 is easy, its a simple trade.  your life as you knew it for grades.  its that easy.  just spend 12 hrs/day 6 days a week in the library, buy and read the supplements, and visit with your profs often

FWIW (to any scared people) I didn't put in anywhere near that many hours...
I am one of the scared people, so that's nice to hear  :)
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: notmikejones on March 29, 2007, 02:31:28 PM
As for the school expecting you to be top half, that isn't really their job.  They are in essence "buying" your numbers with a scholarship.  What they put in their brochures and report to USNWR is what they trade you for the scholarship.  Of course they hope you remain and become a successful/generous alum, but make no mistake, they made you an offer to improve their appearance and encourage other higher caliber students to apply.  My view is that you fulfill your obligation by enrolling and it ends there. 

This is exactly how I see it, in a sense you are selling yourself to a law school.  It is a much more attractive offer to have X amount of money basically guarenteed over three years than to have Y amount of money only guarenteed the first year (maybe even only the first semester!) with a bunch of strings attached for the remaining two years.  It seems much more professional to me for a school to choose students that they really like, and want at the school and then offer them money rather than throw money at everybody above a certain LSAT and then add a bunch of stipulations so only 30% will get to keep the money for 2L.  I for one do not want to be worried about my performance because of financial reasons.  I will be putting plenty of stress on myself without having to worry about financial issues tied to my grades.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: somniferum on March 29, 2007, 02:44:41 PM
i 3.0 is easy, its a simple trade.  your life as you knew it for grades.  its that easy.  just spend 12 hrs/day 6 days a week in the library, buy and read the supplements, and visit with your profs often

FWIW (to any scared people) I didn't put in anywhere near that many hours...
I am one of the scared people, so that's nice to hear  :)

Glad to be of help ;)  Don't get me wrong, you'll have to put in 12 hours days sometimes (generally when a big LRW assignment is due or around exam time), but its definitely not the norm.  For example, this afternoon I think I've read all of 5 pages and I'm getting ready to head out to the Square to sit on a balcony, have a cold beverage, and enjoy the delightful spring weather. :)
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: RN to JD on March 29, 2007, 02:55:28 PM
That still sounds very doable. I am usually working 12-16 hour days, comming home doing the family thing, helping with 4th grade homework and my own work to finish my UG studies. My days usually end around 2am and start at 6am. I think I will be able to handle it much better when I get to ditch the job. Actually, I should be writing a paper right now but I'm not in the groove. I think I may go sit on my patio and sip me a cool beverage. This weather is great today.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: skeeball on March 29, 2007, 02:58:39 PM
I heart Denver. I would probably have applied there if I was single.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: RN to JD on March 29, 2007, 08:21:09 PM
That still sounds very doable. I am usually working 12-16 hour days, comming home doing the family thing, helping with 4th grade homework and my own work to finish my UG studies. My days usually end around 2am and start at 6am. I think I will be able to handle it much better when I get to ditch the job. Actually, I should be writing a paper right now but I'm not in the groove. I think I may go sit on my patio and sip me a cool beverage. This weather is great today.

It was 70 yesterday, and 50 degrees wehn I went to bed. Now its snowing here, with about 14 inches thus far, Denver weather is crazy.

I would love to see some of that snow. It is very rare around here. Maybe I need to get a vacation home in Denver :D  That's about as long as I could tolerate the cold.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on March 30, 2007, 08:06:35 AM
no one ever plans to lose scholarships.  no one plans to be in the bottom of the class.  no one plans for that sinking feeling when you see a "C" for a class you busted your ass in.

its harder, because most of us were in the top of our college classes, or are coming from very successful other careers.  we've been told we were smart all of our lives, and we knew that if we just put everything we had into it, we be at the top of our classes here.

a rude awakening to find that everybody here is smart.  some are lucky.  others just test extremely well.

10% of us are ecstatic. we have the legal world by the balls, and we strut around in our suits because we got the interviews YOU didn't qualify for. another 20% are satisfied, yet eying the top 10%, wondering what we can do to displace them.  the next 40% have adopted an 'i don't give a sh*t attitude.'  we know that there is no way in hell we will be able to reach that magical top 10%, and are doing just enough to get by.  'a C is ok' is our mantra, along with 'sure i'll have another beer.'  but we don't fool anyone, least of all ourselves.  we're just as stressed and disgusted with ourselves as anyone else.  the bottom 30% waver between hope and despair.  we just want to pass.  we're not stupid, but we sure feel that way.  we listen to the morons in class offering their idiotic opinions over and over, and when we find that their gpa's are 1.5 higher than ours we just want to gouge our eyes out with our own highlighters.

and then theres a very, very small percentage of us, hidden in the greater masses, who have determined that the law probably isn't for us.  it's not that we can't do it -- we just don't know if we want to.  but we've already invested a LOT of money in discovering this -- because coming to law school was the only way to find out.  we're looking for an out.  don't be surprised when we disappear, regardless of our gpa or class standing.

remember, kiddies, that C average attorneys still find jobs, have successful careers, and pay their student loans.  if you determine not to get caught up in the gpa rat race; or use it as a measuring stick to determine your own self-worth, you'll be ok.  you'll do a little of it, guaranteed -- just don't let it pwn you.  keep your eyes on the prize, do the networking, make the contacts, get the practical experiences, and things will work out.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: rukiddin on March 30, 2007, 08:57:02 AM
no one ever plans to lose scholarships.  no one plans to be in the bottom of the class.  no one plans for that sinking feeling when you see a "C" for a class you busted your ass in.

its harder, because most of us were in the top of our college classes, or are coming from very successful other careers.  we've been told we were smart all of our lives, and we knew that if we just put everything we had into it, we be at the top of our classes here.

a rude awakening to find that everybody here is smart.  some are lucky.  others just test extremely well.

10% of us are ecstatic. we have the legal world by the balls, and we strut around in our suits because we got the interviews YOU didn't qualify for. another 20% are satisfied, yet eying the top 10%, wondering what we can do to displace them.  the next 40% have adopted an 'i don't give a sh*t attitude.'  we know that there is no way in hell we will be able to reach that magical top 10%, and are doing just enough to get by.  'a C is ok' is our mantra, along with 'sure i'll have another beer.'  but we don't fool anyone, least of all ourselves.  we're just as stressed and disgusted with ourselves as anyone else.  the bottom 30% waver between hope and despair.  we just want to pass.  we're not stupid, but we sure feel that way.  we listen to the morons in class offering their idiotic opinions over and over, and when we find that their gpa's are 1.5 higher than ours we just want to gouge our eyes out with our own highlighters.

and then theres a very, very small percentage of us, hidden in the greater masses, who have determined that the law probably isn't for us.  it's not that we can't do it -- we just don't know if we want to.  but we've already invested a LOT of money in discovering this -- because coming to law school was the only way to find out.  we're looking for an out.  don't be surprised when we disappear, regardless of our gpa or class standing.

remember, kiddies, that C average attorneys still find jobs, have successful careers, and pay their student loans.  if you determine not to get caught up in the gpa rat race; or use it as a measuring stick to determine your own self-worth, you'll be ok.  you'll do a little of it, guaranteed -- just don't let it pwn you.  keep your eyes on the prize, do the networking, make the contacts, get the practical experiences, and things will work out.

The best post I've read in a while. Thanks, Rev.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: laxlaw on March 30, 2007, 10:09:26 AM
no one ever plans to lose scholarships.  no one plans to be in the bottom of the class.  no one plans for that sinking feeling when you see a "C" for a class you busted your ass in.

its harder, because most of us were in the top of our college classes, or are coming from very successful other careers.  we've been told we were smart all of our lives, and we knew that if we just put everything we had into it, we be at the top of our classes here.

a rude awakening to find that everybody here is smart.  some are lucky.  others just test extremely well.

10% of us are ecstatic. we have the legal world by the balls, and we strut around in our suits because we got the interviews YOU didn't qualify for. another 20% are satisfied, yet eying the top 10%, wondering what we can do to displace them.  the next 40% have adopted an 'i don't give a sh*t attitude.'  we know that there is no way in hell we will be able to reach that magical top 10%, and are doing just enough to get by.  'a C is ok' is our mantra, along with 'sure i'll have another beer.'  but we don't fool anyone, least of all ourselves.  we're just as stressed and disgusted with ourselves as anyone else.  the bottom 30% waver between hope and despair.  we just want to pass.  we're not stupid, but we sure feel that way.  we listen to the morons in class offering their idiotic opinions over and over, and when we find that their gpa's are 1.5 higher than ours we just want to gouge our eyes out with our own highlighters.

and then theres a very, very small percentage of us, hidden in the greater masses, who have determined that the law probably isn't for us.  it's not that we can't do it -- we just don't know if we want to.  but we've already invested a LOT of money in discovering this -- because coming to law school was the only way to find out.  we're looking for an out.  don't be surprised when we disappear, regardless of our gpa or class standing.

remember, kiddies, that C average attorneys still find jobs, have successful careers, and pay their student loans.  if you determine not to get caught up in the gpa rat race; or use it as a measuring stick to determine your own self-worth, you'll be ok.  you'll do a little of it, guaranteed -- just don't let it pwn you.  keep your eyes on the prize, do the networking, make the contacts, get the practical experiences, and things will work out.


WOW! Thank you for that post.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Paper Chaser on March 30, 2007, 11:17:27 AM
That was a dead on post for describing the experience...but you forgot one smaller percentage...the people who flunk out not knowing all this stuff, but who come back and know it all before they come through the door again. Since the ABA requires them to take two years off after flunking out they work as paralegals, stock brokers, go to school for master degrees, or get paralegal certificates. When you come into class the first day intimidated by the professors glare behind his/her horned rim spectacles, the flunkie responds cooly by saying nothing the entire class while the gunners hack themselves to death with questions that somehow just miss the mark every class...and while the professor hides the ball, possibly oogles some young chick's unmentionables in the front, and openly befriends another student because of her daddy's ties to President Bush. you begin to realize that the very top 10 percent that you want to get into is only like top 5 because if you think that grading is anonymous you are a fool, because they find out who is getting what grades before they even turn them in when they match up your social with a name...and you stress with a study partner who goes through cartons a week as if they were blow pops, its all a sham, and if most knew, most wouldn't go. But hey they've got you for 50k on the line, you dont know what else you would do, and what would mommy and daddy say? Face it, this is a disgrace, "oh what a rat race?" Its lonely at the top, because if you are lucky enough to be that top 10, students will begin to love or hate you, people will want to know you, and girls will want to date you. Law school shows you the ugly side of the world that people don't want to address, where its all about money, forget the politics...lol. Good luck.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: irvineizle on March 30, 2007, 03:17:35 PM
Law school shows you the ugly side of the world that people don't want to address, where its all about money

It's not that people don't want to address that, it's that they're too naive to know or think about it. Power and money make the world go round, round, round...  :)
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: RN to JD on March 30, 2007, 04:44:07 PM
That still sounds very doable. I am usually working 12-16 hour days, comming home doing the family thing, helping with 4th grade homework and my own work to finish my UG studies. My days usually end around 2am and start at 6am. I think I will be able to handle it much better when I get to ditch the job. Actually, I should be writing a paper right now but I'm not in the groove. I think I may go sit on my patio and sip me a cool beverage. This weather is great today.

It was 70 yesterday, and 50 degrees wehn I went to bed. Now its snowing here, with about 14 inches thus far, Denver weather is crazy.

I would love to see some of that snow. It is very rare around here. Maybe I need to get a vacation home in Denver :D  That's about as long as I could tolerate the cold.


Ok, RN to JD, I have to ask. In your avatar did you guys just walk into an operating room and ask the poor guy on the table your about to disembowel to take your picture. Because that is what the angle looks like.

How did you guess? It was a very cooperative pt. also.  ;D
No, actually we had just set up for a C-Section (non-emergent), pt. wasn't even in the room yet. Another one of the nurses that didn't have to scrub in took the pic. I liked your version better.  ;)
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: laxlaw on March 30, 2007, 08:12:30 PM
Law school shows you the ugly side of the world that people don't want to address, where its all about money

It's not that people don't want to address that, it's that they're too naive to know or think about it. Power and money make the world go round, round, round...  :)

It doesn't have to...

"I hope some dayyyyy you'll join us, and the wooooorld will live as one" ;D

A little Lennon always cheers me up.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: PhiMuAmberkins on March 30, 2007, 08:15:58 PM
Law school shows you the ugly side of the world that people don't want to address, where its all about money

It's not that people don't want to address that, it's that they're too naive to know or think about it. Power and money make the world go round, round, round...  :)

It doesn't have to...

"I hope some dayyyyy you'll join us, and the wooooorld will live as one" ;D

A little Lennon always cheers me up.

Aw, quoting John Lennon makes my day!  And boy...did I need it today!
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Paper Chaser on March 31, 2007, 03:01:00 AM
GMU begs to differ. :)
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on April 02, 2007, 12:23:08 PM
agreed.  law school teaches nothing about actual lawyering.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Big Slick on April 02, 2007, 12:31:51 PM
Here is a quick post do get the some discussion going:

What do you think is the purpose of law school (either as a current student or future student)?

I have come to the conclusion that law school has two, and only two purposes that student should focus on above anything else: 1) ALLOW you to take the bar, 2) Getting you a JOB as a lawyer.

I donít think you learn enough of the law in law school to PASS the bar, you need to take a bar course.

I also donít think you learn enough of the law in law school to be practice ready. Employers expect to have to train you.

I also think most law schools donít focus enough of helping students get a job, they leave this up to the student, and a lot of students just donít know what to do to land one.


Thus its my view that because by default in most jurisdictions purpose 1 is satisfied by graduating, any law students primary goal in law school should be number 2. It should be their primary focus in law school. Law school is a three year interviewing job search in my view, nothing else.

Thus everything you do, from day one, should be focused on getting a job. Sure grades help, but trust me grades alone will not land you a job. Prospective law students, I believe, should be focused on day one on doing everything they can to land a job. Donít wait till 3L to start this process, start it first semester of 1L, if you do you can overcome any obstacles in your way, as you have plenty of time to do so.

Thoughts?



Well.. I am a 0L so I can't give definitive answer on purpose of law school.  However, I think I can draw analogy based on my undergrad degree in accounting and my current job as tax accountant.

I think the purpose of school is to get you the fundamentals.  Accounting student does not learn how to fill out tax form, file 10K with SEC, or how to use tax or accounting software.

Consequently, as you correctly pointed out, employers (accounting firms, corporation, gov't) expect to teach new hires.  Employers will teach you the company's business, software, and other stuff they think that you did not learn from college.  However, they expect you to know how to make journal entries, what balance sheet looks like, distinguish between current asset and non-current asset, so forth and so on.

Think about this, how would you teach someone how to read and write in English if he/she does not even know the alphabet.  Teaching something to someone without any fundamentals in the subject area that you are trying to teach is like screaming to a wall.  

IMHO, it is necessary to have strong fundamental in order to be successful at one's profession.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Freak on April 02, 2007, 12:46:06 PM
Agreed, but the depth you need depends on law you practice - a real estate lawyer doesn't need to know crim pro...
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Big Slick on April 02, 2007, 01:55:33 PM
Even at undergrad level, some people treated college as academic experience and some treated as training for job.  I treated as the latter.  My approach to undergrad was to learn how to act/think like an accounting/tax professional.  Opponents of such approach often ridiculed my approach by saying stuff like "Why didn't you go to Devry" since Devry prides themselves on giving students "Skills employers seek."

If Devry were to have lawschool what tier would it be  ::)
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: John Blackthorne on April 02, 2007, 02:31:09 PM
Even at undergrad level, some people treated college as academic experience and some treated as training for job.  I treated as the latter.  My approach to undergrad was to learn how to act/think like an accounting/tax professional.  Opponents of such approach often ridiculed my approach by saying stuff like "Why didn't you go to Devry" since Devry prides themselves on giving students "Skills employers seek."

If Devry were to have lawschool what tier would it be  ::)

Devry = TTT

I agree 100% that the purpose of law school is to get a job.  Grades, journals, clubs, networking are all means to an end.  If you treat grades as the end, you will be helping yourself out in getting a job, but you will not be on the same path as one simply seeking a job.  Great grades will never hurt anyone, but those with the best job prospects on graduation have been marketing, networking, resume building, and resume sending since first semester. 

Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Freak on April 02, 2007, 10:37:18 PM
I agree with all the above. However, classmates will help you, once you have a job, because then you know who to call for advice in areas other than your speciality. But he's right, they will almost certainly not find you a job.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: notmikejones on April 02, 2007, 10:40:38 PM
excellent post Matthies, I see myself as an extremely sociable person, but I have often thought that I am not an effective networker.  I want to develop my networking ability and have been planning on getting some books on the subject to help me with that.  You seem to have some great ideas and I appreciated reading them, do you have any suggestions on specific books that would be helpful, or did you learn to network in a different way?
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Astro on April 04, 2007, 03:02:12 PM
Dammit, I'm waiting for part II here, Matthies!  NEED MORE EXCELLENT INFO!
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Chibundu on April 04, 2007, 04:23:39 PM
Excellent posts on here. I initially came here to receive advice and post questions I had for the lower tiered schools, but as I can see this has turned into a forum on information that i believe could be useful to any type of law student. Excellent job Rev and Matthies. I appreciate all the information.

I too have been a pretty sociable individual, but as I have learned from my sales job (Best Buy; Home Theater Specialist) that I am not a shoot the S&#t type of person. I would also like to know of some books that assist in networking and also what kinds of areas most lawyers tend to "hang out." I am going to be in Houston and i am also a bartender and I would like to know how to better position myself to meet lawyers and begin my expanding my network.

Cant wait to read Part II!!!
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on April 04, 2007, 07:09:21 PM
a good way to get lawyers talking is to ask for advice.  "what specialties of law do you see there being a growing need for in the next few years?"  "if you were going to law school today, what would you specialize in?"  stuff like that.

lawyers are like fighter pilots.  their idea of foreplay:  talk about themselves for five minutes.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: skeeball on April 05, 2007, 07:16:25 AM
This is all really good info.

I kinda feel like I should be paying for it...
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Freak on April 05, 2007, 10:11:25 AM
I'm sure he'll gladly accept paypal.

I would like to add that maintaining contacts takes time! You must make the calls, send the emails, go to lunch, listen and respond, don't become a burden, help them with something, become friends. Maybe they have a kid who needs tutoring or need a ride somewhere. If you dine with them, find a restaurant they like and handle the details; pay your half. If they mention a play, concert or sporting event, find the tickets at a discount and a time to attend. Even if you cannot make it, give them the details on how to get the tickets cheaper. As Matt said, if they show interest in a case or topic, find some articles online and email it to them.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: RN to JD on April 05, 2007, 11:52:06 AM
This is really great advice, Thanks guys. Sure will be great when we are on the other side being the ones that people want to network with. ;D
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Paper Chaser on April 05, 2007, 12:41:08 PM
Attending WVU event next weekend, and have been invited to sit at the Dean of the University's banquet table as well as top partners in major law firms. I will defnitely put this to use.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Astro on April 13, 2007, 06:39:27 PM
BUMP


srsly

I'm waiting for part 3, Matthies!
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: rusty on April 13, 2007, 09:48:10 PM

Accounting student does not learn how to fill out tax form, file 10K with SEC, or how to use tax or accounting software.


 ??? Not true at all.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on April 13, 2007, 11:30:02 PM
networking got me a summer clerkship.  volunteered 4 hours a week at legal services all semester, now i've got a job.  woot!
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Chibundu on April 14, 2007, 12:49:46 PM
Yea, congrats to Rev. I will post my networking works in real life example later today. First I need to do some Spring yard work I have been avoiding...

Whoa that was a tease, This is like crack...... Oh well I will still be waiting
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: pastor of muppets on April 16, 2007, 02:51:31 PM
FWIW, an admissions director at a Tier 3 school told me that about 25% of their scholarship students lose their scholarship after their first year.

I am not sure I trusted that person though because they then went on about how its unfortunate when students lose their scholarships and that the school wishes none of them did.  Well if thats true, then why does the school tie-in certain GPA requirements that they know everyone can't possibly meet?
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: keelee on April 16, 2007, 03:59:03 PM
FWIW, an admissions director at a Tier 3 school told me that about 25% of their scholarship students lose their scholarship after their first year.

I am not sure I trusted that person though because they then went on about how its unfortunate when students lose their scholarships and that the school wishes none of them did.  Well if thats true, then why does the school tie-in certain GPA requirements that they know everyone can't possibly meet?

That's how they can give out so many scholarships...it is absolutely certain that not everyone will make the cut. Some schools take it a step farther by "stacking". That is, they will take everyone who has a scholarship and put them in the same section. They are all graded on the same curve. If there is a cut off, let's say top 50% of the class, then it is guaranteed that 50% of those with scholarships will lose them. It is important to find out if a school you are planning to attend stacks, and they will not all be upfront about it.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: pastor of muppets on April 16, 2007, 05:25:08 PM
That's how they can give out so many scholarships...it is absolutely certain that not everyone will make the cut. Some schools take it a step farther by "stacking". That is, they will take everyone who has a scholarship and put them in the same section. They are all graded on the same curve. If there is a cut off, let's say top 50% of the class, then it is guaranteed that 50% of those with scholarships will lose them. It is important to find out if a school you are planning to attend stacks, and they will not all be upfront about it.

I just recently found out about the "stacking" ploy.  Sadly, I did not know about this before my round of law school visits that I went on about a month ago.

I do know that they give out more scholarships that they know people can possibly keep.  My point was that if this is their practice, how can their admissions director then look me in the face and say that they wish everyone could keep their scholarship?  That director KNOWS, for a FACT, that everyone won't keep them, its by design!  So don't try and make it like there are circumstances outside of the school's control that regrettably result in some losing their scholarship.

Sorry to get all pissed about this...I just don't like people trying to put crap like that over me.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Astro on April 16, 2007, 06:56:44 PM
I f-ing love this thread.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: rusty on April 16, 2007, 08:07:25 PM
FWIW, an admissions director at a Tier 3 school told me that about 25% of their scholarship students lose their scholarship after their first year.

I am not sure I trusted that person though because they then went on about how its unfortunate when students lose their scholarships and that the school wishes none of them did.  Well if thats true, then why does the school tie-in certain GPA requirements that they know everyone can't possibly meet?

That's how they can give out so many scholarships...it is absolutely certain that not everyone will make the cut. Some schools take it a step farther by "stacking". That is, they will take everyone who has a scholarship and put them in the same section. They are all graded on the same curve. If there is a cut off, let's say top 50% of the class, then it is guaranteed that 50% of those with scholarships will lose them. It is important to find out if a school you are planning to attend stacks, and they will not all be upfront about it.

How does one go about finding that information?  I assume the admissions office probably wouldn't talk about that even if asked.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: keelee on April 16, 2007, 08:15:13 PM
FWIW, an admissions director at a Tier 3 school told me that about 25% of their scholarship students lose their scholarship after their first year.

I am not sure I trusted that person though because they then went on about how its unfortunate when students lose their scholarships and that the school wishes none of them did.  Well if thats true, then why does the school tie-in certain GPA requirements that they know everyone can't possibly meet?

That's how they can give out so many scholarships...it is absolutely certain that not everyone will make the cut. Some schools take it a step farther by "stacking". That is, they will take everyone who has a scholarship and put them in the same section. They are all graded on the same curve. If there is a cut off, let's say top 50% of the class, then it is guaranteed that 50% of those with scholarships will lose them. It is important to find out if a school you are planning to attend stacks, and they will not all be upfront about it.

How does one go about finding that information?  I assume the admissions office probably wouldn't talk about that even if asked.

Pester them again and again. They won't at first, but if you bother them about it, they might. I don't know if they have to, but one would think it is required.

One method that gives away that they are likely doing it: an "Honors" program in which the honor students are in the same class.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: GwenK on April 16, 2007, 08:26:03 PM
Matthies -- fantastic advice! Thanks and keep it comin'!!
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: GloveDoesntFit on April 16, 2007, 08:31:48 PM
Some good stuff here. Thanks.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: rtqw on April 16, 2007, 08:41:16 PM
Tagging this thread because I'm incompetent at networking/interviewing and need all the help I can find, even if I'm going to a T1 :) Thanks to those providing the advice!
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Big Slick on April 17, 2007, 11:12:39 AM
So does anyone have any questions about law school in general, or life at large?


Now is the time to ask them, the law students on this board are getting close to exams, so we will be absent more in the next few weeks, so ask now or hold you peace till late May!


Yes I do, Oh the wise one.

I will be attending LS on PT basis while working 30 hours per week for my 1st year.  I will be taking 9 hours per semester (6 on summer).

Assuming that all of my classes are in the evening (6 - 9), what would be the ideal daily schedule with 6 hours of work incorporated into it.

Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Reesespbcup on April 17, 2007, 12:42:04 PM
I'd like to ask a few things...

First, somebody mentioned the "hide-the-ball" game profs play. Is this really that prevalent? I understand the saying to mean that profs don't tell you what you need to know for exams or worse, tell you you don't need to know or mention certain things when you really do need to know/mention them (eg black letter law).

Secondly, how surprised where you by who did well and who did not on exams? Did those who did well have any identifiable common attributes?

Last, regarding the Outline, how do you compile this? Do you mostly just note stuff the prof talks about or do you incorporate a lot from the study aids that s/he doesnít mention? And how do you organize yours so you can find stuff quickly during an exam?

Last (OK, I mean it this time), did you read any books on LS in general or exam-taking that were really helpful?

Anybody want to take a stab at any of those? (Thanks in advance!).
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: P.U.S.H on April 19, 2007, 08:51:29 PM
Don't know why I didn't do this before... *tag*
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Sell Out on April 19, 2007, 09:28:59 PM
I posted this on anouther thread, but hey I wrote it and think its funny, so here you go:


Ok, I was saving this for another thread, but UGA is right, your doomed if you go to T3, you will never get a job for more than $14 an hour, why, because this is really the way BIG LAW hiring/partner track works:

(Discussion of four partners deciding who should get the one job they have open from their summer interns at a NH BIG LAW firm)


P1: Ok, letís get down to business, who are the two final candidates for our associate position?

P2: I nominated Jack, he goes to NYU, we got him from OCI in the spring.

P3: Very prestigious!

P4: I nominated Bill, he goes to Franklin Pierce, Chris Smith recommended him after he spent his 1L summer interning over at their firm.

P1: I like Chris, heís a good lawyer.

P3: He went to Cornell I believe, very prestigious!

P1: Ok, so what do we know about each candidate?

P2: Jack goes to NYU

P3: Prestigious!!!

P1: Indeed!

P4: What are his grades like?

P2: I think 2.4 GPA, but NYU is a hard school.

P4: They donít even curve their gradesÖ

P2: Oh, have you seen his personalized license plates? They say NYU LAW!

P3: VERY PRESTIGIOUS!!! I want that!

P4: Um, Mike you canít get plates like that.

P3: Why NOT???

P4: Because ďThe Ohio State University School of LawĒ wonít fit.

P3: Oh, are you sure? Iím going to have my intern research that, he goes to Stanford by the way.

P1: Oh, hey, send me a memo on what you find, Iím doing some work for the DMV, I can bill for that.

P1: So what about this other guy, Tom, Ted, what was his name?

P4: Bill

P1: He goes to NYU?

P4: No he goes to Franklin Pierce

P2: They have a law school?

P3: Are you going to eat that bagel Jim?

P1: No, you can have it. I sent my intern to grab them from Johnsonís Bakery down the street. He's from Harvard.

P2: The baker?

P1: No my intern who got the bagels.

P3: I heard that bakerís cousinís son is at MIT, thatís pretty prestigious.

P4: Can we get back to the subject at hand?

P1: Sure, ok tell us about Dave.

P4: His names Bill. He rewrote the memo your last intern screwed up, the one where she called Mr. Shateed, Mr. Shithead over and over again.

P1: Oh, yes, she went to Yale you know, my last intern.

P3: Youíre prestigious Jim!

P4: Anyway, Bill is in the top 30% of his class, on law review, done moot court and comes highly recommended by Chris after volunteering there last summer. I have been extremely pleased with his work.

P2: He does not go to NYU though.

P3: True!

P4: Um, isnít Jack, the NYU kid, the one who got so drunk and the last company party he screamed ANN IN ACCOUNTING LIKE GIRLS then threw up on the Mayorís wife?

P2: Yea, thatís him, heís at NYU.

P4: We had to buy the Mayorís wife a new dress for 5K, thanks to him.

P3: It was a Dolce dress, very prestigious!!!

P4: Well Bill has authored three memos for us, all great, he has stayed late each night making sure everything is done, and he co-writing an article with Mike Jones about superfund liability.

P2: Oh, did I mention Jack got a 168 on his third LSAT?

P4: Isnít he also the one thatís under investigation for taking $600 our of the clients trust account and spending it on a hooker?

P2: She was a transvestite hooker, and she does a lot of work with the big five firms up in NY.

P3: She sounds prestigious!

P1: Ok, lets make the decision. It seems pretty clear that Jack is the front runner here, letís take a vote. All in favor of the NYU guy say ďAYEĒ.

P2: Aye

P3: Aye

P4: Nay

P1: Aye

P1: Ok, that settled, hire the NYU guy. Anything else before we break?

P3: Does anyone have the number for that transvestite hooker?

P2: Iíll Blackberry it to you.

P3: Blackberryís are prestigious!!

P1: Ok, Stan, let me talk to you a second.

P4: Yes?

P1: I think we need to get rid on this Carl guy from Franklin Pierce, it sounds like he is not working out. We have an image to keep at this firm, and our clients expect a certain level of proficiency. Let him go today and put the new guy in charge of his duties.

P4: Dear god take me nowÖ.

P1: Oh, yea, and see if you can deduct $600 out of his pay to cover the NYU kids debt.



First, I would like to point out that BigLaw is not the only way to make good money as a lawyer.

Also, I just spit my coffee all over the room reading that.  :D
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: LizD on April 26, 2007, 04:50:45 AM
tag
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: strongmace on April 26, 2007, 07:36:12 AM
Quote

First, I would like to point out that BigLaw is not the only way to make good money as a lawyer.

Also, I just spit my coffee all over the room reading that.  :D


tell me how else to make good money :)
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on April 26, 2007, 07:39:02 AM
Quote

First, I would like to point out that BigLaw is not the only way to make good money as a lawyer.

Also, I just spit my coffee all over the room reading that.  :D


tell me how else to make good money :)



marry rich.


ok, i'm pretty much out until finals are over. 
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: RN to JD on April 26, 2007, 10:10:32 AM
Good luck guy's! Hope you do well  ;D
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Reesespbcup on April 26, 2007, 11:43:04 AM
Yeah, thanks for all the insight!
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: strongmace on April 28, 2007, 07:37:39 AM
Quote
marry rich.


ok, i'm pretty much out until finals are over. 

Good luck to both of you with your finals. 

Unfortunately, I cannot marry rich.  Well, maybe I can.  I want to marry a cute pastry chef girl.  Having handmade pastries fed to me by my supercute wife each night is my ultimate fantasy.  :)
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on April 28, 2007, 07:54:41 AM
thanks all, and i wish i could actually force myself to get some studying done...

2nd semester of 1L is not a fun time
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: UGAfootballfanatic on April 28, 2007, 08:16:45 AM
I agree- I've been using LSD as a crutch to avoid studying. Only 1 final left, and it's civ pro. Two days left to study, and I'm already burned out. I think I peaked too early. Those who slacked all semester will have no trouble finding motivation at this point, but I started outlining 12 hrs/weekend almost 2 months ago. I'm tired.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on April 28, 2007, 08:23:16 AM
I agree- I've been using LSD as a crutch to avoid studying. Only 1 final left, and it's civ pro. Two days left to study, and I'm already burned out. I think I peaked too early. Those who slacked all semester will have no trouble finding motivation at this point, but I started outlining 12 hrs/weekend almost 2 months ago. I'm tired.


i did that last semester, and really paid for it come crunch time.  i went the slacker route this semester, and am just starting to gear up now as my finals dont start until may 7th
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: AndyB on April 29, 2007, 01:30:29 PM
Here is my law school grading horror story:

I had a class where you could work in groups on the final exam, the only requirement was that what you turned in you wrote yourself (so you could not split it up, with each person writing half). Me and my best friend in law school work on this together. Both of us are pretty smart and have the about the same GPA. We hash it all out, agree on the issues and points, then go off to work on it. We each write our responses, we both come to the same conclusions, use the same cases, make the same points. One of us got an A, second highest raw grade in the class, the other a C+. There is no rhyme or reason to it, we compared papers afterwards, no conclusions different, just different writing styles. We still don’t know what happened there, prof must have been in a bad mood when he got to the C+ paper.


Mattheis,

In the Loyola thread, you said exams weren't random, and started a huge argument over it. You also said you were so successful you didn't care about jobs, but in this thread you say you had to take out student loans.

So are you just a liar, or a full blown psycho?
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on April 29, 2007, 01:35:08 PM
Here is my law school grading horror story:

I had a class where you could work in groups on the final exam, the only requirement was that what you turned in you wrote yourself (so you could not split it up, with each person writing half). Me and my best friend in law school work on this together. Both of us are pretty smart and have the about the same GPA. We hash it all out, agree on the issues and points, then go off to work on it. We each write our responses, we both come to the same conclusions, use the same cases, make the same points. One of us got an A, second highest raw grade in the class, the other a C+. There is no rhyme or reason to it, we compared papers afterwards, no conclusions different, just different writing styles. We still donít know what happened there, prof must have been in a bad mood when he got to the C+ paper.


Mattheis,

In the Loyola thread you said exams weren't random, and started a huge argument over it. You also said you were so successful you didn't care about jobs, but in this thread you say you had to take out student loans.

So are you just a liar, or a full blown psycho?




matthies has given more good advice on this board than you will ever know, noob.

although i doubt you're really a noob, my guess is that you're just a gutless cretin afraid to use his/her own name.


Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: AndyB on April 29, 2007, 01:36:45 PM
Here is my law school grading horror story:

I had a class where you could work in groups on the final exam, the only requirement was that what you turned in you wrote yourself (so you could not split it up, with each person writing half). Me and my best friend in law school work on this together. Both of us are pretty smart and have the about the same GPA. We hash it all out, agree on the issues and points, then go off to work on it. We each write our responses, we both come to the same conclusions, use the same cases, make the same points. One of us got an A, second highest raw grade in the class, the other a C+. There is no rhyme or reason to it, we compared papers afterwards, no conclusions different, just different writing styles. We still don’t know what happened there, prof must have been in a bad mood when he got to the C+ paper.


Mattheis,

In the Loyola thread you said exams weren't random, and started a huge argument over it. You also said you were so successful you didn't care about jobs, but in this thread you say you had to take out student loans.

So are you just a liar, or a full blown psycho?




matthies has given more good advice on this board than you will ever know, noob.

although i doubt you're really a noob, my guess is that you're just a gutless cretin afraid to use his/her own name.




Seems like a lying psycho to me.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on April 29, 2007, 01:37:43 PM
Here is my law school grading horror story:

I had a class where you could work in groups on the final exam, the only requirement was that what you turned in you wrote yourself (so you could not split it up, with each person writing half). Me and my best friend in law school work on this together. Both of us are pretty smart and have the about the same GPA. We hash it all out, agree on the issues and points, then go off to work on it. We each write our responses, we both come to the same conclusions, use the same cases, make the same points. One of us got an A, second highest raw grade in the class, the other a C+. There is no rhyme or reason to it, we compared papers afterwards, no conclusions different, just different writing styles. We still donít know what happened there, prof must have been in a bad mood when he got to the C+ paper.


Mattheis,

In the Loyola thread you said exams weren't random, and started a huge argument over it. You also said you were so successful you didn't care about jobs, but in this thread you say you had to take out student loans.

So are you just a liar, or a full blown psycho?




matthies has given more good advice on this board than you will ever know, noob.

although i doubt you're really a noob, my guess is that you're just a gutless cretin afraid to use his/her own name.




Seems like a lying psycho to me.




my observation stands.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: AndyB on April 29, 2007, 01:59:07 PM
Rev, Wait a second. Why would you ruin a thread with statements which completely contradict what you wrote in another thread? By what definition is that not psychotic behavior? Students use this board for credible information.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: AndyB on April 29, 2007, 05:26:32 PM
1. You ruined the thread by arguing about it.
2. You're on loans because you're not anywhere near successful.
You're a lying piece of sh*t and a thread ruining troll.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: kc13 on April 29, 2007, 05:30:26 PM
1. You ruined the thread by arguing about it.
2. You're on loans because you're not anywhere near successful.
You're a lying piece of sh*t and a thread ruining troll.

Well,we are all in a friendly mood today again,i see
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: aslaw505 on April 29, 2007, 06:32:02 PM
1. You ruined the thread by arguing about it.
2. You're on loans because you're not anywhere near successful.
You're a lying piece of sh*t and a thread ruining troll.

Ummm....since when does having a loan = not being at all successful?
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: mugatu on April 29, 2007, 06:35:14 PM
1. You ruined the thread by arguing about it.
2. You're on loans because you're not anywhere near successful.
You're a lying piece of sh*t and a thread ruining troll.

Yes.  Yes you are, AndyB.   :D

 :D

I can almost see the pout.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: pastor of muppets on April 29, 2007, 06:45:10 PM
1. You ruined the thread by arguing about it.
2. You're on loans because you're not anywhere near successful.
You're a lying piece of sh*t and a thread ruining troll.

LOL, My mission was a success then. Glad to know Iím important enough to be on your mind so much. You donít have the same luxury it seems.

No kidding. This f*cking loser actually made an alias just to take a cheap shot at you (and a rather poor one at that).  You must be proud.   ;D
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Sell Out on April 29, 2007, 08:33:07 PM
Andy seems like a lovely human being, doesn't he?
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Sell Out on April 30, 2007, 07:58:24 AM
Andy seems like a lovely human being, doesn't he?

Congrats on U of H Sgt. D, thats a great school. I almost went there myslef, but Texas was much father from home than CO.

Thank you!  I'm going to take them my seat deposit today!
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Reesespbcup on April 30, 2007, 10:25:31 AM
OK, so I have a question?  I planned to start outlining at the very beginning of the semester, probably the first week. Yet, it sounds like many of you who did that burned out. Was it overall studying too hard or something specific you were trying to do that maybe wasn't necessary?

While were on the topic of outlines, anybody have a favorite 'brand'? (Maybe 'brand' isn't the appropriate term). One more Ďthoughtí Ė do you ever read the restatements or is that just too much in an already packed schedule? Appreciate your thoughts, WHEN you are done studying/taking finals, of course.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: cesco on April 30, 2007, 10:54:09 AM
OK, so I have a question?  I planned to start outlining at the very beginning of the semester, probably the first week. Yet, it sounds like many of you who did that burned out. Was it overall studying too hard or something specific you were trying to do that maybe wasn't necessary?

While were on the topic of outlines, anybody have a favorite 'brand'? (Maybe 'brand' isn't the appropriate term). One more Ďthoughtí Ė do you ever read the restatements or is that just too much in an already packed schedule? Appreciate your thoughts, WHEN you are done studying/taking finals, of course.


An outline is essentially a synthesis of all the material you have learned.  While it is helpful to start outlining early, outlining the first week or two or school will not be helpful.  You will not have learned enough material to piece anything together.  I personally waited till mid semester.  By then you can see how the material fits together and you develop an understanding of the "big picture"

Reading Restatements that arnt required will only screw you up.  Most classes will teach you the part of the Restatements you need to know - but remember the Restatements arn't official law (and sometimes havent been adopted by courts).  If you learn something outside the bounds of what the teacher wants, well, you could be causing yourself problems. Trust me - you will have PLENTY of material to learn...
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Reesespbcup on April 30, 2007, 11:48:46 AM
Cool, thanks. So I guess class must be kind of all over the place to such an extent that you can't piece even little bits together(?). For instance, when you learn battery, don't you also learn the elements and sub-elements? Couldn't I add that to my outline? I thought maybe I would go back and condense, too, as I committed stuff to memory.

But maybe what you are saying is that, while I will understand the major headings, I won't know how to order my major headings. Is that the problem?

Thanks for the tip regarding restatements!
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: ipwannabe on April 30, 2007, 01:14:08 PM
any adivce on choosing between john marshall in chicago and case western in ohio? i posted this on an earlier thread-- my friend probably doesnt want to stay in ohio... which would have better job placement in chi?

thanks in advance!!!

Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on April 30, 2007, 01:17:53 PM
any adivce on choosing between john marshall in chicago and case western in ohio? i posted this on an earlier thread-- my friend probably doesnt want to stay in ohio... which would have better job placement in chi?

thanks in advance!!!




if you want to practice in chi, take marshall.  if you're not going to a t14, always attend in the area where you wish to practice.  certainly, graduating at the top of your class makes your degree more portable for your first job, but never count on graduating at the top of your class.  140 other people in your class have the same intention
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Sweetpri on April 30, 2007, 04:03:16 PM
tag
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: slacker on April 30, 2007, 04:34:13 PM
Cool, thanks. So I guess class must be kind of all over the place to such an extent that you can't piece even little bits together(?). For instance, when you learn battery, don't you also learn the elements and sub-elements? Couldn't I add that to my outline? I thought maybe I would go back and condense, too, as I committed stuff to memory.

But maybe what you are saying is that, while I will understand the major headings, I won't know how to order my major headings. Is that the problem?

Thanks for the tip regarding restatements!

I'd also wait to start outlining until you get through a "section" of material. In this example, I'd go for all the intentional torts (there's not that many of them) before worrying about outlining.

Battery's just one tort. It's elements are easy, honestly. There's some twists like transferred intent and such that go with intentional torts, but for the most part, it's a small little section that you'll probably start with and should be good for the first foray into outlining.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Rule of Reason on April 30, 2007, 04:44:43 PM
tag

@ TRANSFER STUDENTS:

Anyone here have good basis for comparison of the "metality" behind an elite school vs. that of a T2 ??

e.g. I have heard the generalization that the elite schools have the luxury to theorize more about "policy" than  "black letter law"; that T2's that bait out scholarships that are hard to keep will create tough classes while the elite schools cooperate more, etc...

ok i have no clue as to the validity of these generalizations... but if someone does, I'd be really interested in that.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: cesco on April 30, 2007, 08:53:41 PM
As to the scholarships, at least at my school they spread them out between sections I have heard. I also donít see much competition at all. But that may be because Iím PT and most of my classmates are older. We share everything and work toghter, its more of a us vs. the prof mentality, then me vs. everyone else. I canít speak to the day section on this, maybe Cesco can.

I think the scholarship competition is going to vary school to school.  At DU they require you to be close to the top 50%... but I believe they actually give you 3 semesters to do it in.  The scholarships are spread between the 3 sections, and considering less than 1/3 of students get them, it is very realistic that everyone could keep their scholarship.  I have no idea the true #s though - and I am sure every school handles this differently.

As for competition... I am in the day section and find that everyone has a pretty strong "work together" mentality.  Most students have formed groups of about 5 or so that they really bond with and share stuff with, but I think the we all work together really well.  I am actually a very competitive person (in most aspects of life) and I have found that I am not at all competitive with my classmates, just w/myself.  I like to feel on top of the material and that I can control getting a good grade (in theory) but I would never not share info.  You actually learn the best when you can explain something to someone else, or talk something out together. 

Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: latinlord on April 30, 2007, 11:09:10 PM
Hey this is an interestings Thread... Let me know if anyone has any questions about IU-INDY.. i'll chime in if anything comes to mind as I'm reading this...
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Reesespbcup on May 01, 2007, 07:58:45 AM
OK, so I have a question?  I planned to start outlining at the very beginning of the semester, probably the first week. Yet, it sounds like many of you who did that burned out. Was it overall studying too hard or something specific you were trying to do that maybe wasn't necessary?

While were on the topic of outlines, anybody have a favorite 'brand'? (Maybe 'brand' isn't the appropriate term). One more Ďthoughtí Ė do you ever read the restatements or is that just too much in an already packed schedule? Appreciate your thoughts, WHEN you are done studying/taking finals, of course.


An outline is essentially a synthesis of all the material you have learned.  While it is helpful to start outlining early, outlining the first week or two or school will not be helpful.  You will not have learned enough material to piece anything together.  I personally waited till mid semester.  By then you can see how the material fits together and you develop an understanding of the "big picture"

Reading Restatements that arnt required will only screw you up.  Most classes will teach you the part of the Restatements you need to know - but remember the Restatements arn't official law (and sometimes havent been adopted by courts).  If you learn something outside the bounds of what the teacher wants, well, you could be causing yourself problems. Trust me - you will have PLENTY of material to learn...

What commercial outlines do you like though? Should we wait to get those to see what our prof has to say about his preference or are profs likely to shun commercial outlines?
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on May 01, 2007, 08:18:24 AM
most profs dont like them.  i ended up buying a bunch of them and not using them all that much.

the only ones i used religiously were the examples and explanations for civ pro and the high court case summaries for criminal law.  i would recommend the high court summaries for any class, however they must be keyed to your text, and crim was the only class where that happened

i like gilberts a little better than emmanuels, for everything else

if you like flashcards, law in a flash is good
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Reesespbcup on May 01, 2007, 08:51:38 AM
most profs dont like them.  i ended up buying a bunch of them and not using them all that much.

the only ones i used religiously were the examples and explanations for civ pro and the high court case summaries for criminal law.  i would recommend the high court summaries for any class, however they must be keyed to your text, and crim was the only class where that happened

i like gilberts a little better than emmanuels, for everything else

if you like flashcards, law in a flash is good

So, how do you get an overview of the case you will be reading (ie the Black Letter Law pertaining to the case)? Do the E&E's have BLL? Also, are E&Es aka "Hornboonks"? Thanks so much for all the insight!!!!
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: latinlord on May 01, 2007, 08:58:31 AM
most profs dont like them.  i ended up buying a bunch of them and not using them all that much.

the only ones i used religiously were the examples and explanations for civ pro and the high court case summaries for criminal law.  i would recommend the high court summaries for any class, however they must be keyed to your text, and crim was the only class where that happened

i like gilberts a little better than emmanuels, for everything else

if you like flashcards, law in a flash is good

So, how do you get an overview of the case you will be reading (ie the Black Letter Law pertaining to the case)? Do the E&E's have BLL? Also, are E&Es aka "Hornboonks"? Thanks so much for all the insight!!!!

YEAH!! i'll answer this one there are a couple of books that summarize each and every case in your text book... The first is "Legal Lines" I'v heard they are ok.. But I like "Case Notes Legal Briefs" by Aspen publishers. Of course you should not use this as a substitute for reading the case.. I usually read both I read the legal brief to get a quick understanding of the case then read the whole case for all the extensive information... I incorporate both in my personal brief as well.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on May 01, 2007, 09:06:13 AM
most profs dont like them.  i ended up buying a bunch of them and not using them all that much.

the only ones i used religiously were the examples and explanations for civ pro and the high court case summaries for criminal law.  i would recommend the high court summaries for any class, however they must be keyed to your text, and crim was the only class where that happened

i like gilberts a little better than emmanuels, for everything else

if you like flashcards, law in a flash is good

So, how do you get an overview of the case you will be reading (ie the Black Letter Law pertaining to the case)? Do the E&E's have BLL? Also, are E&Es aka "Hornboonks"? Thanks so much for all the insight!!!!


i ALWAYS have lexis-nexis briefs with headnotes up.  it picks out the bll for you, as do the case summaries, BUT don't forget, most black-letter law you will be studying is state-specific.  in  those cases, just make note of the concepts, AND always listen for "the majority of states follow....." and "in this state we use....."  that stuff is gold.

Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Reesespbcup on May 01, 2007, 09:13:11 AM
most profs dont like them.  i ended up buying a bunch of them and not using them all that much.

the only ones i used religiously were the examples and explanations for civ pro and the high court case summaries for criminal law.  i would recommend the high court summaries for any class, however they must be keyed to your text, and crim was the only class where that happened

i like gilberts a little better than emmanuels, for everything else

if you like flashcards, law in a flash is good

So, how do you get an overview of the case you will be reading (ie the Black Letter Law pertaining to the case)? Do the E&E's have BLL? Also, are E&Es aka "Hornboonks"? Thanks so much for all the insight!!!!


i ALWAYS have lexis-nexis briefs with headnotes up.  it picks out the bll for you, as do the case summaries, BUT don't forget, most black-letter law you will be studying is state-specific.  in  those cases, just make note of the concepts, AND always listen for "the majority of states follow....." and "in this state we use....."  that stuff is gold.



Yikes, I didn't realize it was that state-specific...Will watch out for that. Does Headnotes pick out ALL the bll or just the bll pertaining to that case? For example, in a case discussing the meaning of "intent" in a battery, would it just give you bll on intent or all the elements/sub elements on battery? (I keep talking about battery 'cause that's all I know right now  :D)

Alternatively, Latin, what about case-notes re the above question?
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: UGAfootballfanatic on May 01, 2007, 09:17:31 AM
As for supplements- I agree with Rev: you don't have to use them to do well, and I didn't use them much. Most people who buy supps only use them as a security blanket for the portions they don't understand. Here's what I used last year (this will differ according to your professor's preference also):
Criminal Law- Understanding Criminal Law, Dressler
Torts- nothing (my prof taught differently than most, and we spent 90% of the semester on negligence)
Contracts- Barbri outlines. A lot of people use gilbert, but I felt comfortable with the material so I didn't buy anything. The barbri outlines are free if you sign up for barbri.
CivPro- most people use Glannon's E&E. I bought the Black letter law outline, which was useful mainly for the practice questions.
Property- nothing
Con Law- most people use Chemerinsky, I didn't buy anything.

The best use I had for supplements was getting extra practice questions of varying levels of difficulty- starting with T/F, then doing MC, then starting practice essays a week before the exam. But that's just me.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Reesespbcup on May 01, 2007, 09:20:31 AM
As for supplements- I agree with Rev: you don't have to use them to do well, and I didn't use them much. Most people who buy supps only use them as a security blanket for the portions they don't understand. Here's what I used last year (this will differ according to your professor's preference also):
Criminal Law- Understanding Criminal Law, Dressler
Torts- nothing (my prof taught differently than most, and we spent 90% of the semester on negligence)
Contracts- Barbri outlines. A lot of people use gilbert, but I felt comfortable with the material so I didn't buy anything. The barbri outlines are free if you sign up for barbri.
CivPro- most people use Glannon's E&E. I bought the Black letter law outline, which was useful mainly for the practice questions.
Property- nothing
Con Law- most people use Chemerinsky, I didn't buy anything.

The best use I had for supplements was getting extra practice questions of varying levels of difficulty- starting with T/F, then doing MC, then starting practice essays a week before the exam. But that's just me.

Great info, UGA, thanks! I think I am big on 'security blankets'  ;)
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on May 01, 2007, 09:32:25 AM
most profs dont like them.  i ended up buying a bunch of them and not using them all that much.

the only ones i used religiously were the examples and explanations for civ pro and the high court case summaries for criminal law.  i would recommend the high court summaries for any class, however they must be keyed to your text, and crim was the only class where that happened

i like gilberts a little better than emmanuels, for everything else

if you like flashcards, law in a flash is good

So, how do you get an overview of the case you will be reading (ie the Black Letter Law pertaining to the case)? Do the E&E's have BLL? Also, are E&Es aka "Hornboonks"? Thanks so much for all the insight!!!!


i ALWAYS have lexis-nexis briefs with headnotes up.  it picks out the bll for you, as do the case summaries, BUT don't forget, most black-letter law you will be studying is state-specific.  in  those cases, just make note of the concepts, AND always listen for "the majority of states follow....." and "in this state we use....."  that stuff is gold.



Yikes, I didn't realize it was that state-specific...Will watch out for that. Does Headnotes pick out ALL the bll or just the bll pertaining to that case? For example, in a case discussing the meaning of "intent" in a battery, would it just give you bll on intent or all the elements/sub elements on battery? (I keep talking about battery 'cause that's all I know right now  :D)

Alternatively, Latin, what about case-notes re the above question?


typically just what pertains to the appellate case because thats all thats being ruled on.  it will occasionally give you all the elements, it depends on who wrote the opinion.  fortunately, for things like battery, the elements are pretty well standard across the board, and codified by most, if not all, states.  what you will find frustrating is reading cases with basically the same fact pattern and opposite decisions, because they are in different states.

one of the main things i have learned in my first year of law school is:

there is no such thing as justice.  there is only law, and how it is applied by the guy or gal in the black robe.

a jaded view, perhaps.  but true nonetheless, and even more enforced by what i see working for state legal services.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: latinlord on May 01, 2007, 09:43:16 AM
most profs dont like them.  i ended up buying a bunch of them and not using them all that much.

the only ones i used religiously were the examples and explanations for civ pro and the high court case summaries for criminal law.  i would recommend the high court summaries for any class, however they must be keyed to your text, and crim was the only class where that happened

i like gilberts a little better than emmanuels, for everything else

if you like flashcards, law in a flash is good

So, how do you get an overview of the case you will be reading (ie the Black Letter Law pertaining to the case)? Do the E&E's have BLL? Also, are E&Es aka "Hornboonks"? Thanks so much for all the insight!!!!


i ALWAYS have lexis-nexis briefs with headnotes up.  it picks out the bll for you, as do the case summaries, BUT don't forget, most black-letter law you will be studying is state-specific.  in  those cases, just make note of the concepts, AND always listen for "the majority of states follow....." and "in this state we use....."  that stuff is gold.



Yikes, I didn't realize it was that state-specific...Will watch out for that. Does Headnotes pick out ALL the bll or just the bll pertaining to that case? For example, in a case discussing the meaning of "intent" in a battery, would it just give you bll on intent or all the elements/sub elements on battery? (I keep talking about battery 'cause that's all I know right now  :D)

Alternatively, Latin, what about case-notes re the above question?


typically just what pertains to the appellate case because thats all thats being ruled on.  it will occasionally give you all the elements, it depends on who wrote the opinion.  fortunately, for things like battery, the elements are pretty well standard across the board, and codified by most, if not all, states.  what you will find frustrating is reading cases with basically the same fact pattern and opposite decisions, because they are in different states.

one of the main things i have learned in my first year of law school is:

there is no such thing as justice.  there is only law, and how it is applied by the guy or gal in the black robe.

a jaded view, perhaps.  but true nonetheless, and even more enforced by what i see working for state legal services.

HAHA yea Rev there is never any justice, just who has the better lawyer!!

Casenotes is specifiic to the issue present in that specific case, but it will also give you the total rules for the tort... So I guess both..
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Reesespbcup on May 01, 2007, 09:51:31 AM

typically just what pertains to the appellate case because thats all thats being ruled on.  it will occasionally give you all the elements, it depends on who wrote the opinion.  fortunately, for things like battery, the elements are pretty well standard across the board, and codified by most, if not all, states.  what you will find frustrating is reading cases with basically the same fact pattern and opposite decisions, because they are in different states.

one of the main things i have learned in my first year of law school is:

there is no such thing as justice.  there is only law, and how it is applied by the guy or gal in the black robe.

a jaded view, perhaps.  but true nonetheless, and even more enforced by what i see working for state legal services.

But this is what we need to do in exams, right (argue both sides), right? I mean, isn't that why we cover such conflicting opinions-- so that we see both sides of an issue?
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on May 01, 2007, 10:48:53 AM

typically just what pertains to the appellate case because thats all thats being ruled on.  it will occasionally give you all the elements, it depends on who wrote the opinion.  fortunately, for things like battery, the elements are pretty well standard across the board, and codified by most, if not all, states.  what you will find frustrating is reading cases with basically the same fact pattern and opposite decisions, because they are in different states.

one of the main things i have learned in my first year of law school is:

there is no such thing as justice.  there is only law, and how it is applied by the guy or gal in the black robe.

a jaded view, perhaps.  but true nonetheless, and even more enforced by what i see working for state legal services.

But this is what we need to do in exams, right (argue both sides), right? I mean, isn't that why we cover such conflicting opinions-- so that we see both sides of an issue?


sometimes.  other times you would argue why an element or something does not apply.


a lot of the time, the opinions dont make a lot of sense, and you have to look it up on lexis to even see whats going on  (coughcoughcardozocoughlearned handcough)
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Reesespbcup on May 01, 2007, 11:02:20 AM

typically just what pertains to the appellate case because thats all thats being ruled on.  it will occasionally give you all the elements, it depends on who wrote the opinion.  fortunately, for things like battery, the elements are pretty well standard across the board, and codified by most, if not all, states.  what you will find frustrating is reading cases with basically the same fact pattern and opposite decisions, because they are in different states.

one of the main things i have learned in my first year of law school is:

there is no such thing as justice.  there is only law, and how it is applied by the guy or gal in the black robe.

a jaded view, perhaps.  but true nonetheless, and even more enforced by what i see working for state legal services.

But this is what we need to do in exams, right (argue both sides), right? I mean, isn't that why we cover such conflicting opinions-- so that we see both sides of an issue?


sometimes.  other times you would argue why an element or something does not apply.


a lot of the time, the opinions dont make a lot of sense, and you have to look it up on lexis to even see whats going on  (coughcoughcardozocoughlearnedhandcough)

I really dislike that man.

lol! Can't wait...
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Nontradloserwhoattendsatier3onstudentloansheis on May 01, 2007, 09:03:49 PM
This thread is too hilarious to die.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Nontradloserwhoattendsatier3onstudentloansheis on May 01, 2007, 09:09:19 PM
This thread is too hilarious to die.

Hey my fanboy is back!

Wow, you still think about me this much huh? Must be eating you up inside.

We all love you! You don't mind if I give advice too do you?
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: cesco on May 01, 2007, 09:37:07 PM
What commercial outlines do you like though? Should we wait to get those to see what our prof has to say about his preference or are profs likely to shun commercial outlines?

UGA gave a pretty good wrap up... (and like UGA, we spent almost all our torts time on negligence.  I think we spent one week of a whole semester on intentional torts) 

I recommend the E&E or other similar supplements over commercial outlines.  COmmercial outlines are just that - outlines.  You dont learn material by looking at an outline, you learn the material through the PROCESS of outlining.  Supplements like the E&Es, or Dressler's crim law will actually explain concepts to you in plain English.

If you want help outlining, I would recommend trading outlines w/a couple of classmates instead of buying a commercial outline b/c commercial outlines are very generic.

One final note...I broke down and bought the "High Court Summaries" for Con Law.  I am kicking myself for not doing it earlier.  High Court Summaries and  Legallines are keyed to textbooks (they make them for most major textbooks) and pull out hte BLL and important facts.  I don't think they'd be too helpful for hte subjects with pretty easy cases (torts, contracts) but for understanding the Supreme Court's often convoluted analysis in Con Law - they are great.

ok, one final final note.... outlining is very personal.  Dont get caught up in the hype of what someone else did, or how long someone's outline is.  My outlines are usually ridiculous... I put everything under the sun in them and often include detailed explanations of things.  Most of my friends do skeleton outlines - and are horrified at my monster outlines.  So, use other people's outlines as a resource, but do what works for you.

And get OneNote.  TOTALLY worth the $50.

Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on May 01, 2007, 09:44:45 PM
This thread is too hilarious to die.

Hey my fanboy is back!

Wow, you still think about me this much huh? Must be eating you up inside.

We all love you! You don't mind if I give advice too do you?

matthies attends denver.  denver is a t2. 

i, on the other hand, attend a t3.  as a nontrad.  on student loans.

you got a problem with that?
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Nontradloserwhoattendsatier3onstudentloansheis on May 01, 2007, 09:50:33 PM
This thread is too hilarious to die.

Hey my fanboy is back!

Wow, you still think about me this much huh? Must be eating you up inside.

We all love you! You don't mind if I give advice too do you?

matthies attends denver.  denver is a t2. 

i, on the other hand, attend a t3.  as a nontrad.  on student loans.

you got a problem with that?


You're not as funny. Your advice doesn't have that "idiot who doesn't know he's an idiot" feel.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: paul1454 on May 01, 2007, 09:57:05 PM
Whew, I'm glad someone as intelligent as Nontradloserwhoattendsatier3o nstudentloansheis is here so he can give all of us T2-4 losers the good advice we so eagerly yearn for [insert hint of sarcasm here]!
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Nontradloserwhoattendsatier3onstudentloansheis on May 01, 2007, 09:58:52 PM
Whew, I'm glad someone as intelligent as Nontradloserwhoattendsatier3o nstudentloansheis is here so he can give all of us T2-4 losers the good advice we so eagerly yearn for [insert hint of sarcasm here]!

Let me start with a lesson on networking.

As many of you know for the last 12-15 months I have been working on making networking contacts, nothing more than that, just getting to know people in the legal community and taking those relationships beyond just acquaintances.

Iíve done this by joining an Inn of the Court (IOC). The IOC meets once a month, and has about 150 members, judges and lawyers. Youíre assigned to a table with at least one judge, 2 lawyers with 15 years experience, 2 with 10 years, 2 with five years and one student. From my IOC experience I got to know a Judge pretty well.

This Judge gets together with other judges and lawyers once a week for lunch. He invites me, I start going on a regular basis. Though this I get to know a Supreme Court Justice. Both Judges happen to be ex-criminal defense attorneys, so through them I meet the top criminal defense lawyers in the state. One of them invites me to a monthly dinner. I start going to this and meet some other top CD lawyers.

So one day Iím at one of these meals and mention I am really interested in legal specialty X (nothing to do with criminal defense). Well Judge says I known someone who does that, Iíll invite them next week. Next week comes and sitting at the table is a named partner at THE boutique law firm that specializes in X law. HOLY CRAP. We talk, we find something in common, and lawyer invites me to some meetings where the movers and shakers hang out in specialty X.

Long story short, Partner does not have anything for me yet, but is keeping me in mind when a project comes up. And seems to be showing me a lot of inside stuff in this specialty I never would have gotten to see first hand.

Then about a week ago one of the big criminal defense lawyers I see at lunch asks me if I would like to help him on a case. He fills me in on the details. Itís a case of first impression (meaning no court has yet ruled on this issue) in the 10th Circuit Court (federal court) going against the Department of Justice dealing with the Patriot Act (nothing AT ALL to do with terrorism though). This is a HUGE case, very complex, and he wants me to do a bunch of work for him. Ok, so I have no interest in criminal defense, but it does not matter, this is a once in a life time type case, I would be crazy not to accept it. The learning experience and resume booster alone is worth it.

I never approached him about this, never gave out a resume or transcript, never said I was looking for work, he approached me, and offered me the job. By the way, this guy does NOT take interns, he has had like 2 in 35 years, he is very picky about who he works with.

The point is networking works. Even though most of my mentors do not practice what I want to practice, it does not mean they canít help me. I have gotten several great opportunities out of this group and will help me get into my specialty of choice (which BTW is minuscule, supper small, like 300 people in my state practice it so no chance in hell I would get in by OCI).

So no matter what you want to do, network, you never know what you might get out of it.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Sell Out on May 02, 2007, 01:12:02 AM
This thread is too hilarious to die.

Hey my fanboy is back!

Wow, you still think about me this much huh? Must be eating you up inside.

We all love you! You don't mind if I give advice too do you?

matthies attends denver.  denver is a t2. 

i, on the other hand, attend a t3.  as a nontrad.  on student loans.

you got a problem with that?


You're not as funny. Your advice doesn't have that "idiot who doesn't know he's an idiot" feel.

Worthless trolling=

do                     uch
eb    ag             do     uc 
he        ba         gd         ou
ch           eb      ag d ou   
ch              eb   ag        do
uc          he       ba              gd
ou       ch          eb         ag
do   uc              he     ba
gd                     ouc
h                        e
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Chibundu on May 02, 2007, 06:51:06 AM
It appears his goal is to TRY to ruin this thread like he felt you ruined the other thread.

Fanboy, errrr..... Nontrad can we sit down and talk about this over some coffee or a beer or you eating glass?! I mean it cant be that serious! Can it? By the way, I loved your post on networking. Can't wait to hear more although it had that eerie deja vu effect.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Nontradloserwhoattendsatier3onstudentloansheis on May 02, 2007, 08:51:51 AM
It appears his goal is to TRY to ruin this thread like he felt you ruined the other thread.

Fanboy, errrr..... Nontrad can we sit down and talk about this over some coffee or a beer or you eating glass?! I mean it cant be that serious! Can it? By the way, I loved your post on networking. Can't wait to hear more although it had that eerie deja vu effect.

This thread better not get ruined.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on May 02, 2007, 07:11:34 PM
ok, matthies asked me to post this here....


From my first year of law school.

1.  Do NOT be "that guy."  You KNOW who I'm talking about.  The guy who won't shut up, and offers his worthless opinion on EVERY topic.  With all the experience of 23 years of living at his command, this loudmouth cretin's hand shoots up so many times that by the second semester, you can actually hear the groans of dismay.  When the professor says, desperately, "Anyone?  Anyone else?" you will know that you have become "that guy."

And that we all hate you.

2.  Share.  Yes, it's a concept that you should have learned in kindergarten, but somehow your mommy forgot to teach it to you.  If a classmate is gone, grab them an extra handout.  Give them a copy of your notes.  Email them the next assignment.  I will promise you, especially if you will be practicing in a small market, that you will be remembered.  Wouldn't you rather that, the first time you argue before the judge that you went to school with, they remember you as the guy who gave them their notes when their computer crashed a week before finals?  Or the jackass that said, "Oh well, wouldn't wanna be YOU."  In this situation, just bend over and kiss your ass goodbye, because you are DONE, son.  Judges have long memories.

3.  Don't make fun of the old people.  Yes, maybe you think that us old folks who return to school at age whatever are pathetic.  Keep it to yourself.  In my class, there are at least two of us whom you would never even hear coming:  The 17-year special forces veteran who sits in my seat, and the airborne ranger with the bronze star and CIB who sits across the way.  Oh, and if you think that the 55-year-old ex-doctor is safe to mock, he's treated half the justices on the state supreme court, and can get a phone call through within minutes.  I've seen him do it.  The dumpy lady on the front row?  Her husband is managing partner at one of the biggest firms in Memphis.  The quiet, grey-haired guy that *always* sits by himself?  20 years as an IRS agent.  At least thats what he says.  I can smell CIA all over him, though, and once a company man, *always* a company man.

Play nice with us and we'll play nice with you.  @#!* with us, and we'll make your life a living hell.

4.  Keep your family connections to yourself.  Those of us who have busted our asses to get where we are will NOT look kindly on your never having worked because your grandpa is a federal judge, or the fact that your 1.90 GPA will still get you a job in daddy's firm -- and he's paying your tuition, room and board, and even gives you an allowance.  If you are one of these fortunates, count your blessings and shut up.  Or better still, help those of us who aren't that lucky find something too, or at least buy us a beer every once and a while.

Oh, and btw, no we *don't* want to see your new beemer while we're driving a Honda Civic and eating ravioli.

5.  Don't kiss and tell.  Don't @#!* the professors.  Don't cheat.  Don't make life harder on your classmates.  Don't drink too much at social functions.  Don't hit on the dean's wife.  Anything I missed?  Oh, yeah, don't hit the "send" button on an angry email until you've let it sit overnight, no matter how "right" you are.

6. Don't talk about grades, exams, class rank, or anything else with anyone but your closest confidants.  Someone will *always* feel bad after one of these exchanges.  It is ok to female dog about a particular exam, but the old "What did you get for #3?  Really?  Man, the right answer was ......!"  needs to stay in middle school where it belongs.  Too many repeats of that and you will be found behind the dumpster with a Gilbert's stuffed down your throat.

7.   Don't pound on your keyboard during exams like it's halftime at the f-ing Rose Bowl.  Settle down, son, you're driving me nuts!

8.  Do turn your volume down and set your cell phone on vibrate.  The last thing I want to hear during a lecture is your newest rap ringtone.  I have enough trouble paying attention as it is.

9.  Don't have side conversations while the professor is talking.  I don't *CARE* what you think about the way so-and-so is dressed, where you are going after class, how much you drank or who you screwed last weekend.  YOU are not writing the exam.  That's what IM is for, use it!

10.  Take a shower.  Please.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: UGAfootballfanatic on May 02, 2007, 07:44:47 PM
If at the end of the first week, you don't know who "that guy" is- then you're forewarned it's you. the rest of the class will bond in empathizing about the misery of having to hear you speak.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: chonefiggins on May 02, 2007, 07:47:05 PM
Whats wrong with ravioli?
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: pastor of muppets on May 02, 2007, 11:08:26 PM
Thanks a lot for the LR info Matthies.  I was wondering what specific form those competitions tend to take.

Both you and Rev have provided a lot of valuable insight for us T2/T3/T4 students out there.  It is a much welcome break from the standard "you are ruined if you don't get into a T1 school" mantra, and we appreciate it.   ;D
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: skeeball on May 03, 2007, 07:29:19 AM
I'm scared of LR&W. After two and a half years of working in an office, the longest thing I've had to write for work is a very detailed email, and I'm afraid my writing skills have gone to crap. It took me three months to write my personal statement.

Do you have any words of wisdom to those of us who have been out of UG for a while? I thought I was a pretty good writer in college, but now I'm a lot less sure of myself...
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Reesespbcup on May 03, 2007, 07:42:40 AM
I'm scared of LR&W. After two and a half years of working in an office, the longest thing I've had to write for work is a very detailed email, and I'm afraid my writing skills have gone to crap. It took me three months to write my personal statement.

Do you have any words of wisdom to those of us who have been out of UG for a while? I thought I was a pretty good writer in college, but now I'm a lot less sure of myself...

I wouldn't worry about it too much but you could get a grammar book; I love mine and use it all the time.  Its called "Simon & Schuster Handbook for Writers" by Lynn, Quitman and Troyka. Mine's the 6th ed but its really old, probably there are newer versions. You could also contact the English dept of a local college and find out what grammar books they have the UGs use for their writing classes. If you start using a grammar book now, or at least glancing through it, you'll know where to find stuff once in LS. Just my 2 cents...
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on May 03, 2007, 08:45:34 AM
I'm scared of LR&W. After two and a half years of working in an office, the longest thing I've had to write for work is a very detailed email, and I'm afraid my writing skills have gone to crap. It took me three months to write my personal statement.

Do you have any words of wisdom to those of us who have been out of UG for a while? I thought I was a pretty good writer in college, but now I'm a lot less sure of myself...


dont worry about.  legal writing is sooooooo different and specialized, that you have to basically learn a whole new system.  i've published articles, technical manuals, and even government regulations, and it still gave me fits.  however,  the good thing about it is that (at least at my school) you have a pretty concise checklist of things to follow for cites, format, etc.

also, there is all kinds of legal writing assistance available on the internet from various schools, etc.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Astro on May 04, 2007, 02:51:22 AM
The quiet, grey-haired guy that *always* sits by himself?  20 years as an IRS agent.  At least thats what he says.  I can smell CIA all over him, though, and once a company man, *always* a company man.



 :D :D :D
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: jsbowen on May 04, 2007, 09:57:25 AM
Just a quick thank you for keeping this thread going with such great information.  I have my questions answered before I ask.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: slacker on May 04, 2007, 01:07:57 PM
LR&W will probably kick your arse your first year. It'll suck up far more time than you would think, and you still have to deal with it.

Legal writing looks like English, but it's really not. Competence in the general rules of English grammar are necessary, but not sufficient, to succeed.

I suggest not waiting until the last minute to start/write your memos/briefs/whatever. The temptation is there, but it's really not a good idea.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on May 04, 2007, 01:15:48 PM
LR&W will probably kick your arse your first year. It'll suck up far more time than you would think, and you still have to deal with it.

Legal writing looks like English, but it's really not. Competence in the general rules of English grammar are necessary, but not sufficient, to succeed.

I suggest not waiting until the last minute to start/write your memos/briefs/whatever. The temptation is there, but it's really not a good idea.


abso-f-in-lutely
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: slacker on May 04, 2007, 01:42:35 PM
Legal writing looks like English, but it's really not. Competence in the general rules of English grammar are is necessary, but not sufficient, to succeed.

And, uh, proofread before you hand something in.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on May 04, 2007, 01:44:05 PM
Legal writing looks like English, but it's really not. Competence in the general rules of English grammar are is necessary, but not sufficient, to succeed.

And, uh, proofread before you hand something in.


and site cite check it twice
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: slacker on May 04, 2007, 01:50:29 PM
I spent the early part of this week reviewing the cite checking (and redoing the cite checking, in the process) of a journal article. Yeah...fun stuff.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on May 04, 2007, 01:51:14 PM
I spent the early part of this week reviewing the cite checking (and redoing the cite checking, in the process) of a journal article. Yeah...fun stuff.


i'd rather get a prostate exam by edward scissorhands
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Reesespbcup on May 04, 2007, 01:57:39 PM
Legal writing looks like English, but it's really not. Competence in the general rules of English grammar are is necessary, but not sufficient, to succeed.

And, uh, proofread before you hand something in.

Wait. since "rules" is plural, shouldn't it be "are" and not "is"?
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on May 04, 2007, 02:00:03 PM
Legal writing looks like English, but it's really not. Competence in the general rules of English grammar are is necessary, but not sufficient, to succeed.

And, uh, proofread before you hand something in.

Wait. since "rules" is plural, shouldn't it be "are" and not "is"?


competence is the subject, so the correct adverb is "is" rather than "are."  remove the phrase "in the general rules of english grammar" and you have "competence is necessary"
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Reesespbcup on May 04, 2007, 02:03:44 PM
Legal writing looks like English, but it's really not. Competence in the general rules of English grammar are is necessary, but not sufficient, to succeed.

And, uh, proofread before you hand something in.

Wait. since "rules" is plural, shouldn't it be "are" and not "is"?


competence is the subject, so the correct adverb is "is" rather than "are."  remove the phrase "in the general rules of english grammar" and you have "competence is necessary"

Or is English grammar the subject?
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on May 04, 2007, 02:05:17 PM
Legal writing looks like English, but it's really not. Competence in the general rules of English grammar are is necessary, but not sufficient, to succeed.

And, uh, proofread before you hand something in.

Wait. since "rules" is plural, shouldn't it be "are" and not "is"?


competence is the subject, so the correct adverb is "is" rather than "are."  remove the phrase "in the general rules of english grammar" and you have "competence is necessary"

Or is English grammar the subject?


actually, sex is the subject, as always, but he has cleverly disguised it to throw off future hiring partners
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Reesespbcup on May 04, 2007, 02:09:03 PM
Legal writing looks like English, but it's really not. Competence in the general rules of English grammar are is necessary, but not sufficient, to succeed.

And, uh, proofread before you hand something in.

Wait. since "rules" is plural, shouldn't it be "are" and not "is"?


competence is the subject, so the correct adverb is "is" rather than "are."  remove the phrase "in the general rules of english grammar" and you have "competence is necessary"

Or is English grammar the subject?


actually, sex is the subject, as always, but he has cleverly disguised it to throw off future hiring partners

Seriously, is this debatable? I may need to re-take 6th grade English...
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on May 04, 2007, 02:21:22 PM
Legal writing looks like English, but it's really not. Competence in the general rules of English grammar are is necessary, but not sufficient, to succeed.

And, uh, proofread before you hand something in.

Wait. since "rules" is plural, shouldn't it be "are" and not "is"?


competence is the subject, so the correct adverb is "is" rather than "are."  remove the phrase "in the general rules of english grammar" and you have "competence is necessary"

Or is English grammar the subject?


actually, sex is the subject, as always, but he has cleverly disguised it to throw off future hiring partners

Seriously, is this debatable? I may need to re-take 6th grade English...

me?  seriously?  i dunno, but i will try.

i learned that if you rewrite the sentence and it makes sense, then it is correct.


for example:  Competence in the general rules of English grammar is necessary, but not sufficient, to succeed.

to:  Competence is necessary in the general rules of English grammar, but not sufficient, to succeed.

i also learned that is you ask a question and answer it, then the sentence is correct:

what is necessary?  "competence is necessary"



Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: slacker on May 04, 2007, 02:22:54 PM
What Rev (not Rev) said.

"Competence" is the subject. "rules" is part of a phrase, but not the subject of the sentence."

Stripped of the phrase, "Competence is necessary..." is the proper way to view the subject/verb agreement.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Reesespbcup on May 04, 2007, 02:27:25 PM
Thank you (both)
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Chibundu on May 04, 2007, 02:31:15 PM
Rev you are right. Competency is the subject and "is" the verb that begins the predicate. The rest of the phrases are all prepositions. Which like you showed, if they are removed then the sentence still makes sense.

Oooops I guess I was just a lil late.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: John Blackthorne on May 04, 2007, 03:29:51 PM

the LR comp. this year requires writing a case note.  the packet is rumored to be 300 pages long and contain painfully obscure citations.  yay!
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Astro on May 04, 2007, 07:43:50 PM
Legal writing looks like English, but it's really not. Competence in the general rules of English grammar are is necessary, but not sufficient, to succeed.

And, uh, proofread before you hand something in.

Wait. since "rules" is plural, shouldn't it be "are" and not "is"?


competence is the subject, so the correct adverb is "is" rather than "are."  remove the phrase "in the general rules of english grammar" and you have "competence is necessary"

Or is English grammar the subject?


actually, sex is the subject, as always, but he has cleverly disguised it to throw off future hiring partners

Seriously, is this debatable? I may need to re-take 6th grade English...


It's not debatable.  There's a very simple trick to follow.

Take the "is" phrase, and ask yourself, "What is ___?"  (Or, alternatively, "Who is ___?")  In this case, the "is" phrase is "is necessary".  Ask yourself:  "What is necessary?"


The answer is suddenly simple.  COMPETENCE is necessary.  Voila.  You have your subject, and tenses flow from there.  "Competence" is singular, so the verb must be singular.



By the way, contrary to popular belief, a similar rule works for "Someone and I" versus "me and Someone".  The best way to determine the correct usage is to remove the "and someone" from the sentence and see if it still makes sense.  For instance:

"That solution was the best one for Billybob and I."

Is this correct?  Let's remove "Billybob and". 

"That solution was the best one for I."

Nope.  Doesn't make sense.  The correct usage was "and me", not "and I".

Alternatively:

"You and me wanted to go look at Cady's BFTs, remember?"

Let's remove the "You and".

"Me wanted to go look at Cady's BFTs, remember?"

Here, clearly, the correct usage is "and I".




Ta da.  Hope you enjoyed the lesson, kids.
 
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Tulane1L on May 04, 2007, 10:33:01 PM
A few more pieces of advise from a procrastinating 1L...

1.  Don't be a feminine hygiene product.  Really.  Don't go around telling people that you *already know* that you are going to make law review or that your daddy is giving you a job no matter what or that you spent the entire summer reading E&Es.  Which brings me to..

2.  Don't spend your summer reading law books.  There is more than enough time to learn everything that you need to know in the semester.  By exam time, pretty much everyone knows the same stuff anyway.  If you must do something to prep for law school over the summer, do LEEWS - some people swear by it, I found it moderatly helpful.  Or better yet, prepare your liver for a lifetime of alcoholism...(yeah I'm not kidding).

3.  You will have more free time than you realize during the semester.  Don't get scared from books that say you won't have time to call home, etc. - really, except for the week that a research and writing assignment is due, and the weeks leading up to exams, if you are not also working full time, you will have more time than you know what to do with.  Or at least enough time to put your c&f app. into question....

4.  Keep in touch with your friends outside of law school.  If you only hang out with law students, it really will seem like you are back in high school - if that's your thing, great - if not, spend time with non-law students.  This will also keep you sane during finals when everyone at school is about to have a nervous breakdown.

5.  It won't be that bad.  Really - you have sucessfully made it through at least 16 years of school.  Law school is not that different - you go to class, you study your notes, you take exams.  Just remember, you will get through it - and if you ever doubt this, take a look at all the incompetent and borderline schizophrenic lawyers out there - they sucessfully got through 3 years of law school and the bar, and you can too!

Have a great summer, relax, and don't stress about lawschool - its not that bad, i promise!

p.s. I am also not looking foward to the LR and journal write-on....
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Nontradloserwhoattendsatier2onstudentloansheis on May 04, 2007, 11:38:35 PM
A few more pieces of advise from a procrastinating 1L...

1.  Don't be a feminine hygiene product.  Really.  Don't go around telling people that you *already know* that you are going to make law review or that your daddy is giving you a job no matter what or that you spent the entire summer reading E&Es.  Which brings me to..

2.  Don't spend your summer reading law books.  There is more than enough time to learn everything that you need to know in the semester.  By exam time, pretty much everyone knows the same stuff anyway.  If you must do something to prep for law school over the summer, do LEEWS - some people swear by it, I found it moderatly helpful.  Or better yet, prepare your liver for a lifetime of alcoholism...(yeah I'm not kidding).

3.  You will have more free time than you realize during the semester.  Don't get scared from books that say you won't have time to call home, etc. - really, except for the week that a research and writing assignment is due, and the weeks leading up to exams, if you are not also working full time, you will have more time than you know what to do with.  Or at least enough time to put your c&f app. into question....

4.  Keep in touch with your friends outside of law school.  If you only hang out with law students, it really will seem like you are back in high school - if that's your thing, great - if not, spend time with non-law students.  This will also keep you sane during finals when everyone at school is about to have a nervous breakdown.

5.  It won't be that bad.  Really - you have sucessfully made it through at least 16 years of school.  Law school is not that different - you go to class, you study your notes, you take exams.  Just remember, you will get through it - and if you ever doubt this, take a look at all the incompetent and borderline schizophrenic lawyers out there - they sucessfully got through 3 years of law school and the bar, and you can too!

Have a great summer, relax, and don't stress about lawschool - its not that bad, i promise!

p.s. I am also not looking foward to the LR and journal write-on....

Right on. DO NOT DO BETTER THAN ME. This tier 2 law degree is my last chance in life.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Nontradloserwhoattendsatier2onstudentloansheis on May 04, 2007, 11:41:54 PM
Thanks a lot for the LR info Matthies.  I was wondering what specific form those competitions tend to take.

Both you and Rev have provided a lot of valuable insight for us T2/T3/T4 students out there.  It is a much welcome break from the standard "you are ruined if you don't get into a T1 school" mantra, and we appreciate it.   ;D

You're welcome. My motto is that as long as I don't know I'm am idiot, then I'm not an idiot.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: kc13 on May 05, 2007, 05:43:53 AM
Let me guess ;someone told you once you have talent for stand up comedy,well,let me help you out of that dream
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on May 05, 2007, 08:34:53 AM
Thanks a lot for the LR info Matthies.  I was wondering what specific form those competitions tend to take.

Both you and Rev have provided a lot of valuable insight for us T2/T3/T4 students out there.  It is a much welcome break from the standard "you are ruined if you don't get into a T1 school" mantra, and we appreciate it.   ;D

You're welcome. My motto is that as long as I don't know I'm am idiot, then I'm not an idiot.




kid, this isn't just matthies, thread, its also *my* thread.

while i am a fairly tolerant fellow, you're beginning to annoy me.

everyone is welcome here, but if all you have to offer is this bullsh!t, then GO AWAY
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Swibbles on May 05, 2007, 09:01:33 AM
tag
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Swibbles on May 05, 2007, 09:17:39 AM
Thanks a lot for the LR info Matthies.  I was wondering what specific form those competitions tend to take.

Both you and Rev have provided a lot of valuable insight for us T2/T3/T4 students out there.  It is a much welcome break from the standard "you are ruined if you don't get into a T1 school" mantra, and we appreciate it.   ;D

You're welcome. My motto is that as long as I don't know I'm am idiot, then I'm not an idiot.

Its my little Fanboi again!

People over at oxox not think your stuff is funny either? I actually think this is hilarious, you have been stewing over me for what a two weeks now? Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Here is something for you:

(http://wildbill.nulldevice.net/images/fanboi-anatomy.jpg)

that thing about callouses and lotion... are you comfortable knowing that it all revolves around you?
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: John Blackthorne on May 05, 2007, 01:20:43 PM
PSA to OLs:  Matthies and Rev are dishing out great info--FOR FREE!!

keep up the great work gentlemen.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Nontradloserwhoattendsatier2onstudentloansheis on May 05, 2007, 01:24:54 PM

PSA to OLs:  Matties and Rev are dishing out great info--FOR FREE!!

keep up the great work gentlemen.

Thanks! Finally, people who appreciate the wisdom of nontrads who did average at law school, and life.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on May 05, 2007, 01:26:34 PM

PSA to OLs:  Matties and Rev are dishing out great info--FOR FREE!!

keep up the great work gentlemen.

Thanks! Finally, people who appreciate the wisdom of nontrads who failed at law school, and life.



as i said before.

anytime, anywhere, female private part.

Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: John Blackthorne on May 05, 2007, 01:28:54 PM

PSA to OLs:  Matties and Rev are dishing out great info--FOR FREE!!

keep up the great work gentlemen.

Thanks! Finally, people who appreciate the wisdom of nontrads who failed at law school, and life.



as i said before.

anytime, anywhere, female private part.



i'd say we got his back....but i know he doesn't need it
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Astro on May 05, 2007, 02:21:59 PM

PSA to OLs:  Matties and Rev are dishing out great info--FOR FREE!!

keep up the great work gentlemen.

Thanks! Finally, people who appreciate the wisdom of nontrads who failed at law school, and life.



as i said before.

anytime, anywhere, female private part.





::remembers desperately trying to avoid drawing Rev in the Fight to the Death threads::
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Swibbles on May 05, 2007, 02:22:56 PM

PSA to OLs:  Matties and Rev are dishing out great info--FOR FREE!!

keep up the great work gentlemen.

Thanks! Finally, people who appreciate the wisdom of nontrads who failed at law school, and life.



as i said before.

anytime, anywhere, female private part.





::remembers desperately trying to avoid drawing Rev in the Fight to the Death threads::


you know what was the *&^%?  the terrible people's club thread.  that was the *&^%.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Astro on May 05, 2007, 02:26:05 PM

PSA to OLs:  Matties and Rev are dishing out great info--FOR FREE!!

keep up the great work gentlemen.

Thanks! Finally, people who appreciate the wisdom of nontrads who failed at law school, and life.



as i said before.

anytime, anywhere, female private part.





::remembers desperately trying to avoid drawing Rev in the Fight to the Death threads::


you know what was the *&^%?  the terrible people's club thread.  that was the *&^%.


Easily the most hilarious *&^% ever on LSD.


Puppying was funny, but not nearly THAT funny.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: doondoon on May 06, 2007, 01:33:24 AM
This is full of good advice.  I am still waiting to hear from two schools, both T2.  I was beginning to lose hope, but hey maybe it will still work out.  What are some ways you would advise for being more proactive about finding out their decisions?
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on May 06, 2007, 11:16:48 AM
This is full of good advice.  I am still waiting to hear from two schools, both T2.  I was beginning to lose hope, but hey maybe it will still work out.  What are some ways you would advise for being more proactive about finding out their decisions?

Send them a letter of continuing intrest saying you really want to attend X school.


call and speak to the admissions dean.  they are actually pretty nice people, and unless you curse at them or something, they will give you a fair evaluation of their chances.

best time to call:  first thing in the morning.  before the meetings and other labors of the day wear them done and make them grouchy  :D
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Chibundu on May 06, 2007, 09:09:07 PM
So if you are waitlisted you can call and ask to speak with the Dean of Admissions and they might actually tell you about your chances to attend the school?

I am in like an fritz. I NEED to go to UHLC!!! I want to do anything I can to get in off of this waitlist.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Butters Stotch on May 07, 2007, 10:16:22 AM
Is anyone thinking of borrowing money and "hanging out a shingle" after law school?  I've heard tales of yore that allege this *actually* happens, but I have yet to speak with anyone who's done it, or planning to do it.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: jsbowen on May 07, 2007, 11:19:03 AM
I've thought about this.  There is a good thread on the students board about this:

http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/students/index.php/topic,6338.45.html
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Astro on May 07, 2007, 11:20:48 AM
I've thought about this.  There is a good thread on the students board about this:

http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/students/index.php/topic,6338.45.html


OH GOD!!!  BLUEBOY HAS AN ACCOUNT ON THE STUDENTS BOARD ALREADY?!! 

::hangs self::
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: sbcman9690 on May 07, 2007, 11:25:09 AM
Is anyone thinking of borrowing money and "hanging out a shingle" after law school?  I've heard tales of yore that allege this *actually* happens, but I have yet to speak with anyone who's done it, or planning to do it.

Yeah, I'm going to.  With technology being the way it is, you don't even need to borrow that much if any to hang out a shingle.  The shingle being hung it probably on the internet, you can do anything from a home office.  You can then rent office space per hour from a firm to meet with clients. I am planning on starting by doing contract work and working more towards the areas of law which really interest me.  It takes some balls, I think, to start up a practice right out of school.  And lawyers are traditionally risk-adverse so you don't see that same entrepenurial spirit pervading the newly minted classes of lawyers.  If you are risk tolerant, it can be a great way to put your life in your own hands and make some damn good money doing it too.  If you would like, I can point you to some good sources of info.  There is so much out there on opening a practice.  PM me if you want to,
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: UGAfootballfanatic on May 07, 2007, 12:24:50 PM
You should see the rates for advertising on google for most kinds of solo practitioner law (small PI, etc). It's like $80 per click in some cities.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: plex on May 07, 2007, 04:20:50 PM
Or...you could create your own site, and set it up properly so it comes up in the top 10 hits on most search engines, its easier to do than you think. Now I know how google gets such an insane amount of revenue.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on May 07, 2007, 04:22:03 PM
You should see the rates for advertising on google for most kinds of solo practitioner law (small PI, etc). It's like $80 per click in some cities.


hmmm..... (thinking that you could easily put your competitors out of business by hiring some kid to click on their site like 800 times a day"   ;D
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Astro on May 07, 2007, 04:54:10 PM
Or...you could create your own site, and set it up properly so it comes up in the top 10 hits on most search engines, its easier to do than you think. Now I know how google gets such an insane amount of revenue.


This is way tougher than you think.

Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Astro on May 07, 2007, 07:47:52 PM
Just found this golden oldie and thought it was actually pretty good advice.  It belongs on this thread.

I remember being in your shoes this time last year, and I received a lot of good advice from 1Ls, so I thought I'd do a little payback.  Here are my "hints."

Summer Reading:  Do nothing!  You're more likely to learn bad habits trying to be the 0L gunner over the summer.  If you must read, take a look at how courts are structured.  Many people in my class had no idea how the trial/appellate level system worked, and it's important when you're looking for binding vs persuasive authority.  If you're unclear of how they work and/or the hierarchy, read about it because it will not be covered in class. 

Class notes/reading is NOT enough:  Most of you already know this from being on this board, but most of your classmates will not.  One of the most annoying things in law school is how professors love to hide the ball and then expect you to play.  One of the ways to "discover the ball" is through commercial outlines, hornbooks, etc.  I'm partial to Examples and Explanations.  It will take your fellow students a semester to learn this; use it to your advantage!

Study for exams like they're a math test:  Most people approach law exams as though it's their poly sci final-- it's not!  You will be given a factual scenario that you have not seen and asked to apply legal premises to the facts.  This is much like math...  you know the general principles of how to differentiate/integrate/add/etc, but on the exam you'll see the problem in a form that you haven't worked with.  I prepared for my math tests with a formula sheet (which will be your law outline) and through practicing the problems!  I know it's cliche and seems obvious, but you must work hypotheticals in all parts of your class to get a firm grasp.  Nothing will focus you like having to explain the law.  It's all so clear when the professor is working through an issue in class, but, just like math, when it's you and the blank paper, things become more challenging.  You couldn't score well on math without working the problems... same thing here.

Legal writing is not for English majors:  The people with extensive writing backgrounds were crushed in legal writing.  Legal writing looks more like math (surprising?) than English.  They will focus on sharp, condensed sentences.  For an excellent example of modern day legal writing, look up some opinions by judge Easterbrook (7th Circuit court of appeals).  Do not read the opinion for the law, but for an idea of how legal writing should look.  Once you can rid yourself of the idea that you'll be writing verbose prose, the better you'll be.

Take LEEWS:  I can't stress it enough, but that helped me to all As.  There is more than one way to skin the proverbial cat, and I'm sure there are other ways to writing exams which work, but this one is proven.  Buy it.

Half of your class is there because of their parents:  Shocking to learn, but many are there because of outside pressures.  They are not your competition and will not put up much of a fight.  This also tends to be true at the Harvards of the world as well.

Don't be a dickhead:  If someone asks you a question, answer it.  If someone asks which outline you like the best, tell them.  That doesn't mean you have to go around giving up "secrets", but if you're asked a pointed question, give a pointed answer.  It'll serve you much better in the long run.

Do not join anything your first year:  People will disagree with me on this, but you have three years to pad your resume; how about you start by padding it with As?  There's plenty of time for this stuff, but none of that time will be found in your first year.  Get the grades!!

I hope this helps, and I'll post more as it comes to me. :)

http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php/topic,60390.0.html
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: plex on May 07, 2007, 09:57:42 PM
Thanks Nibs, missed that one. Still really torn on whether to get LEEWS or not. Definitely will be hitting exam questions all term long, referring to E&E's for subject matter I don't understand, and making my own outline (have a pretty good strategy developed that I think will work)...but, I am still thinking about whether I will be able to fit LEEWS in with all that, there is only so much studying you can pack in before it becomes pointless.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: skeeball on May 08, 2007, 07:30:07 AM
I'm not sure about the not joining anything comment. I'm not saying I want to jump in and be involved in every LS activity, but I think joining at least one student group will help me meet some 2 and 3Ls...
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: UGAfootballfanatic on May 08, 2007, 07:42:59 AM
Join at least 1 student group and DO SOMETHING. Being a member who just shows up at the meetings once a semester gets you nowhere. At least volunteer to help with some event, etc. It's a good way to meet 2Ls and 3Ls, and get some leadership experience as well. Keep in mind the colleagues you get involved in will likely be the movers and shakers within your region a few years from now-people you want to know that you're competent and dependable.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: skeeball on May 08, 2007, 07:46:33 AM
Join at least 1 student group and DO SOMETHING. Being a member who just shows up at the meetings once a semester gets you nowhere. At least volunteer to help with some event, etc. It's a good way to meet 2Ls and 3Ls, and get some leadership experience as well. Keep in mind the colleagues you get involved in will likely be the movers and shakers within your region a few years from now-people you want to know that you're competent and dependable.

No worries there. I'll be one of the incoming 1Ls who's worked in the real world for a while and has a pretty good idea of what I want to do when I get out of LS. I chose my school because it's strong in my area of interest and they have a joing degree program not many other schools have. I won't be looking to meet people who can offer guidance on how to outline for torts class, but also folks who share similar career goals as me.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: strongmace on May 08, 2007, 07:47:51 AM
sounds like you have a plan...

UNACCEPTABLE!

:)
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: slacker on May 08, 2007, 08:25:02 AM
I'm not sure about the not joining anything comment. I'm not saying I want to jump in and be involved in every LS activity, but I think joining at least one student group will help me meet some 2 and 3Ls...
Definitely join one (or more) groups to meet 2Ls and 3Ls, but don't get overwhelmed with volunteering; keep that to a minimum. Your 1L grades are quite important, so be sure to keep the focus on those, and do the other stuff as you can. (Most 2L/3Ls will know to not abuse the 1Ls in their group.)
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: FrankWhite on May 08, 2007, 02:54:29 PM
Hey I must have missed it but what is LEEWS again?

ALso this may sound silly but I have a tattoo on my leg and Im concerned it may give off a bad impression. Should I stick to jeans this fall?
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: slacker on May 08, 2007, 03:19:48 PM
LEEWS is a program to help issue-spot and write essay exams. (I've forgotten the meaning of the acronym.)

As for the tattoo, I'd be concerned if an employer is going to see it, esp. in an interview. That, to me, would be inappropriate. If your professors/classmates are going to see it, no big deal. (With a few caveats for appropriateness of the subject matter.)
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: John Blackthorne on May 08, 2007, 03:25:50 PM
LEEWS is a program to help issue-spot and write essay exams. (I've forgotten the meaning of the acronym.)

As for the tattoo, I'd be concerned if an employer is going to see it, esp. in an interview. That, to me, would be inappropriate. If your professors/classmates are going to see it, no big deal. (With a few caveats for appropriateness of the subject matter.)

the law profession is very conservative in this regard.  guys should have a grey or navy suit with white or blue shirt and quiet tie.  black or brown shoes (please wear white socks).  clean shaven.  short clean cut hair.  no earrings (or other visible piercings), no visible tats.

Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: mugatu on May 08, 2007, 03:27:24 PM
you're frightening the young 'uns.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: John Blackthorne on May 08, 2007, 03:29:34 PM
you're frightening the young 'uns.

i went to networking events where people came up to me and told me that i should take out the earring that i have (top-of-the-ear-lobe whatever thats called), i got it 10 years ago, i've never taken it out, and i forget that its in there unless the barber catches it with the clippers. 
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on May 08, 2007, 03:30:36 PM
i dont take mine out.  its a conservative stud, though.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: John Blackthorne on May 08, 2007, 03:31:59 PM
i dont take mine out.  its a conservative stud, though.

just like you?
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: mugatu on May 08, 2007, 03:33:17 PM
you're frightening the young 'uns.

i went to networking events where people came up to me and told me that i should take out the earring that i have (top-of-the-ear-lobe whatever thats called), i got it 10 years ago, i've never taken it out, and i forget that its in there unless the barber catches it with the clippers. 

wait, you're serious?

If so, the white socks are not the way to go.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on May 08, 2007, 03:33:34 PM
i dont take mine out.  its a conservative stud, though.

just like you?


i was actually going to say that, but i'm more libertarian   :D
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: John Blackthorne on May 08, 2007, 03:36:39 PM
you're frightening the young 'uns.

i went to networking events where people came up to me and told me that i should take out the earring that i have (top-of-the-ear-lobe whatever thats called), i got it 10 years ago, i've never taken it out, and i forget that its in there unless the barber catches it with the clippers. 

wait, you're serious?

If so, the white socks are not the way to go.

maybe its diff in california, as my dad likes to say "everything loose rolls left."

i went to three conferences this year, and with the exception of the enviro conference (hippies!), people were dressed very conservatively.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on May 08, 2007, 03:40:44 PM
we had a guy come here from guam recruiting for the prosecuting attorney's office  --- fridays are island wear days in court -- hawaiian shirts, shorts, sandals
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: mugatu on May 08, 2007, 03:43:22 PM
Well, sure, wear a suit.  But I don't think there are any real problems with piercings or tattoos.  I probably wouldn't have one on my forehead, but a wrist of the nape of the neck shouldn't be too big of a deal (so long as they're tasteful.)

Did you mean to say "please don't wear white socks?"
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Astro on May 08, 2007, 03:44:57 PM
you're frightening the young 'uns.

i went to networking events where people came up to me and told me that i should take out the earring that i have (top-of-the-ear-lobe whatever thats called), i got it 10 years ago, i've never taken it out, and i forget that its in there unless the barber catches it with the clippers. 

wait, you're serious?

If so, the white socks are not the way to go.

maybe its diff in california, as my dad likes to say "everything loose rolls left."

i went to three conferences this year, and with the exception of the enviro conference (hippies!), people were dressed very conservatively.


Black suits better be cool.  That's all I've f-ing got.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: John Blackthorne on May 08, 2007, 03:46:29 PM
you're frightening the young 'uns.

i went to networking events where people came up to me and told me that i should take out the earring that i have (top-of-the-ear-lobe whatever thats called), i got it 10 years ago, i've never taken it out, and i forget that its in there unless the barber catches it with the clippers. 

wait, you're serious?

If so, the white socks are not the way to go.

maybe its diff in california, as my dad likes to say "everything loose rolls left."

i went to three conferences this year, and with the exception of the enviro conference (hippies!), people were dressed very conservatively.


Black suits better be cool.  That's all I've f-ing got.


aren't you going to school on the west coast?  see above
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Astro on May 08, 2007, 03:47:51 PM
you're frightening the young 'uns.

i went to networking events where people came up to me and told me that i should take out the earring that i have (top-of-the-ear-lobe whatever thats called), i got it 10 years ago, i've never taken it out, and i forget that its in there unless the barber catches it with the clippers. 

wait, you're serious?

If so, the white socks are not the way to go.

maybe its diff in california, as my dad likes to say "everything loose rolls left."

i went to three conferences this year, and with the exception of the enviro conference (hippies!), people were dressed very conservatively.


Black suits better be cool.  That's all I've f-ing got.


aren't you going to school on the west coast?  see above


I just mean in general. 
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: slacker on May 08, 2007, 05:05:16 PM
Well, sure, wear a suit.  But I don't think there are any real problems with piercings or tattoos.  I probably wouldn't have one on my forehead, but a wrist of the nape of the neck shouldn't be too big of a deal (so long as they're tasteful.)

Did you mean to say "please don't wear white socks?"

For the tats, depends on the firm. There are still a lot of firms that won't want a lawyer with tattoos that would be visible to the client.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: mugatu on May 08, 2007, 06:22:45 PM
OK, since C hasn't responded:

Don't ever wear white socks with dress shoes.  Ever.  Your shoes, socks and belt should all be fairly close.

(I'm pretty sure this is what C meant.)
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: pastor of muppets on May 08, 2007, 07:02:47 PM
OK, since C hasn't responded:

Don't ever wear white socks with dress shoes.  Ever.  Your shoes, socks and belt should all be fairly close.

(I'm pretty sure this is what C meant.)

You can derelique my balls   :D

Seriously, who the f*ck would wear white socks with dress shoes?  I hope to all hell that C mis-spoke.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: mugatu on May 08, 2007, 07:05:00 PM
OK, since C hasn't responded:

Don't ever wear white socks with dress shoes.  Ever.  Your shoes, socks and belt should all be fairly close.

(I'm pretty sure this is what C meant.)

You can derelique my balls   :D

Seriously, who the f*ck would wear white socks with dress shoes?  I hope to all hell that C mis-spoke.

I can derelique my own balls.

I've seen it happen.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on May 08, 2007, 07:08:17 PM
OK, since C hasn't responded:

Don't ever wear white socks with dress shoes.  Ever.  Your shoes, socks and belt should all be fairly close.

(I'm pretty sure this is what C meant.)

You can derelique my balls   :D

Seriously, who the f*ck would wear white socks with dress shoes?  I hope to all hell that C mis-spoke.

I can derelique my own balls.

I've seen it happen.


me too.  the white socks, not the ball lique-ing
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: mugatu on May 08, 2007, 07:09:21 PM
I probably should have clarified that I meant socks.  :D
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: John Blackthorne on May 08, 2007, 08:53:29 PM
OK, since C hasn't responded:

Don't ever wear white socks with dress shoes.  Ever.  Your shoes, socks and belt should all be fairly close.

(I'm pretty sure this is what C meant.)

i am not kidding.  i went to the corporate law institute (THE corporate law conference in the country), and was listening to Robert Kindler speak about the state of the M&A markets, and i looked down for some reason and the guy next to me was wearing white socks (athletic socks) with black shoes and a navy blue suit. 
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: mugatu on May 08, 2007, 08:56:52 PM
I don't even know where to start.  That dude was seriously poorly dressed.

Black shoes don't go with navy.  Dark brown (socks, shoes, belt.)  Period.

And never, ever, wear white socks.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: John Blackthorne on May 08, 2007, 08:59:02 PM
I don't even know where to start.  That dude was seriously poorly dressed.

Black shoes don't go with navy.  Dark brown (socks, shoes, belt.)  Period.

And never, ever, wear white socks.

the eic of the law review (who will be at cravath this summer) will wear a grey suit and white shirt (no tie), and then have his grey velcro running shoes on.  the kid is hilarious.  he said that his first day at cravath he will wear either his blue and white seersucker suit with black and white shoes, or his white linen suit with white shoes.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: mugatu on May 08, 2007, 09:04:51 PM
I don't even know where to start.  That dude was seriously poorly dressed.

Black shoes don't go with navy.  Dark brown (socks, shoes, belt.)  Period.

And never, ever, wear white socks.

the eic of the law review (who will be at cravath this summer) will wear a grey suit and white shirt (no tie), and then have his grey velcro running shoes on.  the kid is hilarious.  he said that his first day at cravath he will wear either his blue and white seersucker suit with black and white shoes, or his white linen suit with white shoes.

That seems more "hipster, ironic" than anything else.  If he was trying to take himself seriously it would be a problem.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: John Blackthorne on May 08, 2007, 09:08:17 PM
I don't even know where to start.  That dude was seriously poorly dressed.

Black shoes don't go with navy.  Dark brown (socks, shoes, belt.)  Period.

And never, ever, wear white socks.

the eic of the law review (who will be at cravath this summer) will wear a grey suit and white shirt (no tie), and then have his grey velcro running shoes on.  the kid is hilarious.  he said that his first day at cravath he will wear either his blue and white seersucker suit with black and white shoes, or his white linen suit with white shoes.

That seems more "hipster, ironic" than anything else.  If he was trying to take himself seriously it would be a problem.

he is from the south.  its what he would wear in june if he was working down here, its what he has always worn in june.  i think its funny in context.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: FrankWhite on May 09, 2007, 07:55:57 AM
I don't even know where to start.  That dude was seriously poorly dressed.

Black shoes don't go with navy.  Dark brown (socks, shoes, belt.)  Period.

And never, ever, wear white socks.

Hmm I've never heard this? I do both with navy personally. Although my suit is real dark navy.


Oh and as far as my tat I was only talking about in class. Whereever I end up working at they will more than likely never see it.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: John Blackthorne on May 09, 2007, 11:04:46 AM
I don't even know where to start.  That dude was seriously poorly dressed.

Black shoes don't go with navy.  Dark brown (socks, shoes, belt.)  Period.

And never, ever, wear white socks.

Hmm I've never heard this? I do both with navy personally. Although my suit is real dark navy.


Oh and as far as my tat I was only talking about in class. Whereever I end up working at they will more than likely never see it.

until the firm xmas party when you're like "Hey everybody!  Look  at this!"
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: pastor of muppets on May 09, 2007, 11:28:00 AM
I don't even know where to start.  That dude was seriously poorly dressed.

Black shoes don't go with navy.  Dark brown (socks, shoes, belt.)  Period.

And never, ever, wear white socks.

Hmm I've never heard this? I do both with navy personally. Although my suit is real dark navy.


Oh and as far as my tat I was only talking about in class. Whereever I end up working at they will more than likely never see it.

until the firm xmas party when you're like "Hey everybody!  Look  at this!"

Hopefully he is firmly entrenched by then.  Or perhaps his tatoo will be overshadowed by the female partner flashing her breasts?
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on May 09, 2007, 11:30:21 AM
about 50% of my class has a tattoo, even what i would term the "conservative" kids
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: ptown on May 09, 2007, 11:48:51 AM
about 50% of my class has a tattoo, even what i would term the "conservative" kids

How do you know?  50% have visible tattoos? That would be pretty astounding.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Reesespbcup on May 09, 2007, 11:52:02 AM


Hopefully he is firmly entrenched by then.  Or perhaps his tatoo will be overshadowed by the female partner flashing her breasts?

That would be me, showing off MY tattoo  ;D
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on May 09, 2007, 12:03:03 PM
about 50% of my class has a tattoo, even what i would term the "conservative" kids

How do you know?  50% have visible tattoos? That would be pretty astounding.


i've seen them all naked.  :o


actually about 25% have visible tattoos (usually arm, ankle, or in some of the girl's cases, lower back.)  the others (like myself) have them on a shoulderblade or somewhere like that, with another small except of the girls who may have something closer to a more personal region.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: ptown on May 09, 2007, 12:10:51 PM
lower back tattoos are visible?  what are these people wearing to class, bikinis?
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on May 09, 2007, 12:21:35 PM
lower back tattoos are visible?  what are these people wearing to class, bikinis?


slacks with shirt that was a bit too short, in my opinion, for a bar luncheon.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Reesespbcup on May 09, 2007, 12:26:29 PM
lower back tattoos are visible?  what are these people wearing to class, bikinis?


slacks with shirt that was a bit too short, in my opinion, for a bar luncheon.

Yikes! The thing about lower back tattoos is that you don't know exactly where they are so you can't be cognizant of them....
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: skeeball on May 09, 2007, 12:43:55 PM
And here I am wondering if I'll have to remove my bellybutton ring once I start working in a firm...
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: John Blackthorne on May 09, 2007, 12:53:21 PM
And here I am wondering if I'll have to remove my bellybutton ring once I start working in a firm...

if you are at a firm and wearing a business suit with a blouse underneath that is tucked into your pants/skirt,  whats the issue?

Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Le Docteur De Peste on May 09, 2007, 01:11:48 PM
And here I am wondering if I'll have to remove my bellybutton ring once I start working in a firm...

<---- Will have at least one sleeve by 3L
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: John Blackthorne on May 09, 2007, 01:19:38 PM
And here I am wondering if I'll have to remove my bellybutton ring once I start working in a firm...

<---- Will have at least one sleeve by 3L

good for you.  if the firm wants you to cover it up, wear a shirt with sleeves.  if they don't care, then who cares.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: skeeball on May 09, 2007, 01:21:25 PM
And here I am wondering if I'll have to remove my bellybutton ring once I start working in a firm...

if you are at a firm and wearing a business suit with a blouse underneath that is tucked into your pants/skirt,  whats the issue?



Sometimes it sticks out through my shirts. But not very often.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: John Blackthorne on May 09, 2007, 01:29:05 PM

this has become a long discussion about nothing.  just be prepared for a generally conservative culture in law firms, and don't be surprised if someone says something about covering up your fav tat or removing a visible piercing.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Le Docteur De Peste on May 09, 2007, 02:41:06 PM
And here I am wondering if I'll have to remove my bellybutton ring once I start working in a firm...

<---- Will have at least one sleeve by 3L

good for you.  if the firm wants you to cover it up, wear a shirt with sleeves.  if they don't care, then who cares.

i figured court: sleeves w/ blazer, always

formal meeting w/ clients: same as above (regardless of weather-- c'mon, we're lawyers, we can afford A/C)

informal meeting w/ newer clients: something not so strict

informal meeting w/ trusted/old clients: doesn't matter.

i'm not a factoid junkie, but i think the percentage of people that will actually have a tattoo by the time i'll be practicing is large and rising fast.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: ptown on May 09, 2007, 02:49:09 PM
And here I am wondering if I'll have to remove my bellybutton ring once I start working in a firm...

<---- Will have at least one sleeve by 3L

good for you.  if the firm wants you to cover it up, wear a shirt with sleeves.  if they don't care, then who cares.

i figured court: sleeves w/ blazer, always

formal meeting w/ clients: same as above (regardless of weather-- c'mon, we're lawyers, we can afford A/C)

informal meeting w/ newer clients: something not so strict

informal meeting w/ trusted/old clients: doesn't matter.

i'm not a factoid junkie, but i think the percentage of people that will actually have a tattoo by the time i'll be practicing is large and rising fast.

I will envy you if you have a full sleeve, I wouldn't personally be able to take the risk.

How are you going to get money for a sleeve while going to school anyway?
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Le Docteur De Peste on May 09, 2007, 02:54:24 PM
And here I am wondering if I'll have to remove my bellybutton ring once I start working in a firm...

<---- Will have at least one sleeve by 3L

good for you.  if the firm wants you to cover it up, wear a shirt with sleeves.  if they don't care, then who cares.

i figured court: sleeves w/ blazer, always

formal meeting w/ clients: same as above (regardless of weather-- c'mon, we're lawyers, we can afford A/C)

informal meeting w/ newer clients: something not so strict

informal meeting w/ trusted/old clients: doesn't matter.

i'm not a factoid junkie, but i think the percentage of people that will actually have a tattoo by the time i'll be practicing is large and rising fast.

I will envy you if you have a full sleeve, I wouldn't personally be able to take the risk.

How are you going to get money for a sleeve while going to school anyway?

Most of one will be completed before I enter LS with money I've been saving up. The rest will have to be done piecemeal (as taking long breaks in between puts new ink next to old ink-- not always a pretty sight)-- $300 here and there every 4-6 months. I should/will be able to scrounge it.

And I'm not starting from scratch, which helps. I'm having some stuff reinked as part of the big pre-LS project. And my other arm/second sleeve-to-be already has two images. It can also be done piecemeal.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: vap on May 09, 2007, 08:48:43 PM
And here I am wondering if I'll have to remove my bellybutton ring once I start working in a firm...

<---- Will have at least one sleeve by 3L

good for you.  if the firm wants you to cover it up, wear a shirt with sleeves.  if they don't care, then who cares.

i figured court: sleeves w/ blazer, always

formal meeting w/ clients: same as above (regardless of weather-- c'mon, we're lawyers, we can afford A/C)

informal meeting w/ newer clients: something not so strict

informal meeting w/ trusted/old clients: doesn't matter.

i'm not a factoid junkie, but i think the percentage of people that will actually have a tattoo by the time i'll be practicing is large and rising fast.

Male or female?  Because most of those situations should be suit and tie if you're a guy.  If you are billing time and meeting with a client in person, then dress the part, unless you have a previous non-business relationship with them.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: wellpreserved on June 24, 2007, 03:31:21 PM
I thought I'd bump this thread and join in (I'm hoping the OPs don't mind).  I'm currently a 1L at University of Mississippi.  Will be around for the next hour or so taking ?s about anything.

I know I'm late as all get out but I'm newish and Ole Miss is on my list for the 09 cycle. I'll take anything you've got:

- how many out of staters?
- how is it to get instate residency?
- where do most folks live?
- grads go out of state to work? how likely is it?
- reputation?
- um, don't get mad but I'm brown and my Momma (a 60s child) always told me to never go to MS. Thus far I've listened to her. How's the "climate"?
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: wellpreserved on June 24, 2007, 04:27:17 PM
I'm late but I'd just like to add that all of these skills are useful for not only building a career but for ANY relationship! Marriage, bumping ugly partners, church, social clubs - it's all about a give and take and listening.

I cannot tell  you how many people confuse exchanging business cards with networking. In my professional experience I had run ins with people who felt like it was ok to call me after one meeting, weeks of no contact and mispronounce my name while asking me to look at someone's resume!

I imagined such folks were also lousy in bed and would need to be millionaires to buy something resembling a relationship. :'(



PART II STARTING AND SUSTAINING NETWORKING CONVERSATIONS:

Iím shy, Iím not good at talking to strangers, how do I network?

Folks youíre in law school. Lawyers talk to strangers all the time; clients, judges, other lawyers. If you want to be a lawyer youíre going need to get over this. You can start easy by networking. The more you do it, the easier talking to strangers will get.

How do I start a conversation with someone I have just met?

This is probably the hardest part of networking, at first. But trust me once you have done it a few times it really becomes pretty easy. The key is knowing what youíre going to say BEFORE you go out networking. Basically you need what networking professionalís call and elevator speech (google this for some examples). This is a speech you have memorized beforehand that you use to start a conversation. They say you should have a 10 second one, a 30 second one, and a 2 min one. The point of this speech is to a) tell people who you are, b) tell people what you want.

An example might be: ďHi Iím Matthias, Iím a 1L at XXX, Iím here because I would like to meet some working attorneys because I donít know a lot yet about how the law works in practice, and I figure this is a good place to meet some experts.Ē Ok, that one sucks, but you get the idea.

The elevator speech should be personal to you. You donít have to memorize it word for word, and you can change it up as the need arises, the point is you should have some kind of introduction speech ready BEFORE you go out and meet people. That way you donít stumble through the introduction.

Ok, I introduced myself, now what the hell do I talk about?

Here again preparation is key. Before you go to any networking function have some questions in mind you want to ask or get answers to. Write these down, try to memorize them before hand (you can use the same questions over and over when meeting new people). Youíre going to be nervous, so if you donít have them memorized your likely to forget them and have that uncomfortable pause.

The best questions are the ones the person you are asking canít answer yes or no to, and the ones that give you feedback you can use. Some basic ones are ďdid you go to school here is state X?Ē What type of law do your practice? Wow, that is an interesting field what does lawyer in that capacity do?

The point of these types of questions is two fold: a) to keep the conversation going b) to solicit INFORMATION you can use to further network with this person. Networking is about the exchange of information. Meaning you need to give back something to the lawyer giving you something for the networking to move beyond just a one time conversation. And a one time conversation is just that, its not networking, networking is getting another meeting with this person later.

What can I do for a lawyer who is an expert in X when Iím just a law student?

Itís the lawyerís job to give you legal info, which is what you need. Itís your job to find something else you can give back. This is where listening comes in. Pay attention to what they say. Did they mention a recent case in their practice area that was a big deal (note it, research it, maybe find an article to e-mail this person later about it). Did they mention a restaurant they went to an liked recently? (Note it, maybe you have not been there, maybe you can ask this lawyer out to lunch at this place later). Did they mention their kids, that their kids play X (If you played X, here is a link between you and this lawyer). The point is your not going to share legal info with this person, you need to find some other ground you can come together on so you can carry on this relationship after the first meeting.

Once you have gotten 2-3 meetings or conversations with someone by using something you have in common, the networking relationship is probably self sufficient, you donít need to do as much to keep it growing. The key is getting over the ďhumpĒ between the first introduction and the next two meetings. This is the hardest part of networking! If you donít do this then the person you just met becomes the person you met once, nothing more. That is not networking. You do this by finding a common ground and giving back to that person something you have, like info, interest, an article you read, whatever.

How will I know if this person will become a good networking contact?

You wonít right away. Just like meeting friends or people in your class, some you ďclick withĒ some you donít. Same with networking. I have found about 4 out 10 people I talk to at an event might turn into networking contacts I talk to more than once. Of those maybe two will be regular contacts, and one will become a very close mentor. So you need to spread out your networking to catch as many of the good ones you can. If you try networking with someone and it repeatedly does not work out, put your energies someplace else.






OK, Iíll work on part three next week, the networking survial kit. If anyone has anything to add, please do, Iím not expert in this stuff.



Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: pastor of muppets on June 24, 2007, 08:11:56 PM
I'm late but I'd just like to add that all of these skills are useful for not only building a career but for ANY relationship! Marriage, bumping ugly partners, church, social clubs - it's all about a give and take and listening.

I cannot tell  you how many people confuse exchanging business cards with networking. In my professional experience I had run ins with people who felt like it was ok to call me after one meeting, weeks of no contact and mispronounce my name while asking me to look at someone's resume!

I imagined such folks were also lousy in bed and would need to be millionaires to buy something resembling a relationship. :'(


Maybe you are just not important enough for people to feel the need to repeatedly kiss your ass?

Nah, couldn't be that.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: wellpreserved on June 24, 2007, 09:17:16 PM
huh?

Maybe I am, maybe I am not but I am of the school of thought if one is the gatekeeper for something you want it would behoove you to not approach a situation from a position of power when you don't have much.

Although, I do feel the need to add that my ass is quite nice and is often propositioned for bussing.

I'm late but I'd just like to add that all of these skills are useful for not only building a career but for ANY relationship! Marriage, bumping ugly partners, church, social clubs - it's all about a give and take and listening.

I cannot tell  you how many people confuse exchanging business cards with networking. In my professional experience I had run ins with people who felt like it was ok to call me after one meeting, weeks of no contact and mispronounce my name while asking me to look at someone's resume!

I imagined such folks were also lousy in bed and would need to be millionaires to buy something resembling a relationship. :'(


Maybe you are just not important enough for people to feel the need to repeatedly kiss your ass?

Nah, couldn't be that.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: pastor of muppets on June 25, 2007, 12:33:36 AM
huh?

Maybe I am, maybe I am not but I am of the school of thought if one is the gatekeeper for something you want it would behoove you to not approach a situation from a position of power when you don't have much.

Although, I do feel the need to add that my ass is quite nice and is often propositioned for bussing.


 :D
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on June 25, 2007, 06:36:54 AM

Although, I do feel the need to add that my ass is quite nice and is often propositioned for bussing spanking.

Quote



outstanding!  :D
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: wellpreserved on June 25, 2007, 01:53:54 PM
*takes a bow*

no...wait... ;D


Although, I do feel the need to add that my ass is quite nice and is often propositioned for bussing spanking.

Quote



outstanding!  :D
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: ithappensforareason on June 25, 2007, 10:15:20 PM
Question: I read in another that thread that some schools will give you scholarships for your 2nd and 3rd year if you are in top 10% of your class after 1L. How common is this?


Does this happen at all tiers of schools or only at the top?


Thanks in advance,
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: John Blackthorne on June 25, 2007, 10:17:50 PM
Question: I read in another that thread that some schools will give you scholarships for your 2nd and 3rd year if you are in top 10% of your class after 1L. How common is this?


Does this happen at all tiers of schools or only at the top?


Thanks in advance,

a school's only incentive to do this would be to keep you there and lead you not to transfer.  i heard of it at a few schools, but you really should check with the schools that you want to attend. 
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Thistle on June 25, 2007, 10:18:03 PM
Question: I read in another that thread that some schools will give you scholarships for your 2nd and 3rd year if you are in top 10% of your class after 1L. How common is this?


Does this happen at all tiers of schools or only at the top?


Thanks in advance,


more common for editors of law review, imho.  dont know, its probably different for every school.


dont hijack the thread with your serious questions while i'm trying to spank honey  :D
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Le Docteur De Peste on June 26, 2007, 02:58:01 PM
::decides from this day forth to call Matthies by "maffies :O)"::
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Le Docteur De Peste on June 26, 2007, 03:36:07 PM
::decides from this day forth to call Matthies by "maffies :O)"::

That sounds too french

Is it the ":O)"?
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: ithappensforareason on June 26, 2007, 05:12:57 PM
Question: I read in another that thread that some schools will give you scholarships for your 2nd and 3rd year if you are in top 10% of your class after 1L. How common is this?


Does this happen at all tiers of schools or only at the top?


Thanks in advance,


more common for editors of law review, imho.  dont know, its probably different for every school.


dont hijack the thread with your serious questions while i'm trying to spank honey  :D


My bad, continue spanking.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Eugene Young on April 06, 2008, 03:13:59 PM
baff
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: 8MAN on April 17, 2008, 08:41:52 AM
bump/tag
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: boombasticlady on April 30, 2008, 04:35:24 PM
tag
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: terranullius on June 16, 2008, 03:17:11 PM
BUMP
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Matthies on June 16, 2008, 03:18:46 PM
egads blast from the past
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: vap on June 16, 2008, 08:18:04 PM
egads blast from the past

I sacrifice lambs for Matthies.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Matthies on June 17, 2008, 10:50:59 AM
egads blast from the past

I sacrifice lambs for Matthies.

Cool when I start a Junta in a small country I'll have a spot for you on my death squad
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: jbakguy on June 17, 2008, 12:05:37 PM
Quick question,  Does "we don't employ a mandatory curve in 1L classes" mean a 2.0 curve?
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Matthies on June 17, 2008, 01:09:26 PM
Quick question,  Does "we don't employ a mandatory curve in 1L classes" mean a 2.0 curve?

I think it means there is no mandatory curve, whether that means prof can curve on his/herown I don't know. A 2.0 curve would be really harsh, I've heard of 2.5 curve, but 2.0 OUCH
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: jbakguy on June 17, 2008, 04:12:26 PM
Yeah, 2.0 would be a little unruly to navigate.   I bet (hope) the professors at my future T3 mostly grade/curve with a reasonable consistency, it just makes me a little uneasy not knowing.  I've struck out trying to nail down any concrete information from all the usual sources; student ambassadors, adcomms, tea leaves, Facebook etc. Sadly, even knowledge of a range of what to expect or which professors grading methods are more conducive to a high GPA then others has eluded my grasp.

Oh well, I suppose knowing the median 1L year end GPA is .1 below my scholarshipís retention requirement will be enough of a stick to keep me in stealth gunner mode. 
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: weez on July 11, 2008, 04:16:34 PM
who gets the best grades at a T2-T4- the people who studied a lot undergrad but maybe arent naturally smart (say 3.7gpa but 151 LSAT) or the underachieves in college who have more natural ability or whatever (3.0 but 162 LSAT)

so say they both come into school thinking top 10% of the class...who's got the better chance?
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: weez on July 11, 2008, 04:18:21 PM
with a 156 LSAT I got a 47% scholarship. After retaking it I got a 164 and they emailed me offering 85% scholarship and I made it clear that with my new score I had some decisions to make. Can I ask for a full ride (and walk otherwise, applying to other schools for the next year?)
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Matthies on July 11, 2008, 04:39:20 PM
who gets the best grades at a T2-T4- the people who studied a lot undergrad but maybe arent naturally smart (say 3.7gpa but 151 LSAT) or the underachieves in college who have more natural ability or whatever (3.0 but 162 LSAT)

so say they both come into school thinking top 10% of the class...who's got the better chance?

Its totally random, there really is no way to guess at the start of 1L year whose is going to end up where. I mean there are predictors, high GPA/LSAT, but they are only that - predictors, and there are so many variables (easy major, prepared for the LSAT for 9 months). Basically there is no way to tell. Highest LSAT in my class is not number 1, but some people with very low LSATs are in the top 10%. Some folks will just ďget itĒ easier than others, some know how to study for their learning style better than others, some adjust to law school quicker, some just get lucky. No way to predict where you will fall out and no good predictors, so just do the best you can.

As to your scholarship question I have no idea, I did not get one so not sure how the bargaining thing works, maybe someone else can answer that.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Speedzie on July 12, 2008, 03:02:22 PM
with a 156 LSAT I got a 47% scholarship. After retaking it I got a 164 and they emailed me offering 85% scholarship and I made it clear that with my new score I had some decisions to make. Can I ask for a full ride (and walk otherwise, applying to other schools for the next year?)

I talked up a higher scholarship based on a high scholarship from a similarly ranked school (one that I had no plans of attending).  I'm not sure how you could get your scholarship upped without a competing offer...
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: jsbowen on July 20, 2008, 08:23:50 PM
with a 156 LSAT I got a 47% scholarship. After retaking it I got a 164 and they emailed me offering 85% scholarship and I made it clear that with my new score I had some decisions to make. Can I ask for a full ride (and walk otherwise, applying to other schools for the next year?)

Seems that is somewhat expected according to this article (thanks, of course, to sites like LSD) - http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2008/07/11/lets-make-a-deal-dickering-down-your-law-school-tuition/
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: Astro on July 27, 2008, 04:26:53 AM
Eternal bump.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: vap on May 06, 2009, 11:20:31 PM
Bumping for those who have made their decision this year.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: sethayates on April 25, 2011, 11:53:31 PM
I must say as a new person to this site I read all 33 pages of this post and I am impressed. The mix of serious questions and unintentional comedy (and sometimes intentional) kep me going all the way to page 33 (yes I can admit I read the whole thing). 

It looks like this thread died a little at the end but I will ask my question like the poster above.  I am considering going to Law School. I am a recently seperated veteran with full GI Bill benefits. I am one of the few who also bothered to take advantage of the free money while I was still in to nearly compleet my degree even around all the constant deployments and other BS that is the military.

I have a 3.8 GPA and I am majoring in accounting (that was my job in the military so I fell into it).  I havent sat yet for the LSAT but I typically do well on standardized tests.  The big issue I see is the Law school in my area is 4th tier.  Im thinking with my GPA and a decent LSAT I could easily come away with a scholarship and use my GI Bill to pay the rest.

My Questions is mostly aimed at the 3rd and 4th tier students.  What has your experience been like?  Would you make the same decision again? I could assumably do this with little or no risk but its obviously a huge time investment as I am 27 years old now and would be 30 before I even graduated.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: FalconJimmy on April 26, 2011, 02:39:27 AM
I must say as a new person to this site I read all 33 pages of this post and I am impressed. The mix of serious questions and unintentional comedy (and sometimes intentional) kep me going all the way to page 33 (yes I can admit I read the whole thing). 

It looks like this thread died a little at the end but I will ask my question like the poster above.  I am considering going to Law School. I am a recently seperated veteran with full GI Bill benefits. I am one of the few who also bothered to take advantage of the free money while I was still in to nearly compleet my degree even around all the constant deployments and other BS that is the military.

I have a 3.8 GPA and I am majoring in accounting (that was my job in the military so I fell into it).  I havent sat yet for the LSAT but I typically do well on standardized tests.  The big issue I see is the Law school in my area is 4th tier.  Im thinking with my GPA and a decent LSAT I could easily come away with a scholarship and use my GI Bill to pay the rest.

My Questions is mostly aimed at the 3rd and 4th tier students.  What has your experience been like?  Would you make the same decision again? I could assumably do this with little or no risk but its obviously a huge time investment as I am 27 years old now and would be 30 before I even graduated.

I'm a 0L, so, I can't address your question, but I have one for you:  with the type of GPA you have, and with the potential to have a really good LSAT, why do you feel you have to go to a law school that's in one area?  Why not go national?  I guess I'd just say that regardless of your circumstances (maybe you have wife and kids, who knows), you have more options than you may think.  The school you pick will have huge implications on your career in the law, forever. 

A friend of mine who got an LLM in Tax from SMU says that it still didn't matter:  most job interviews, they were still asking about his undergrad school.

Law isn't like business.  In business, 3 years after college, nobody cares where you went.  Other than a very, very select few fields (wall street investment bankers, some high prestiege consulting firms), you'll see a smatterring of people from the best schools, but also people from the "worst" schools.  The CEOs of most fortune 500 companies didn't necessarily go to ivy league schools.  In fact, a lot of them went to schools that weren't very hard to get into at all.

In law, 30 years after college, people will still care where you went.  This decision is huge.  The rules seem to be pretty straightforward:  get into the best school you can, then get the best grades you can. 

Why not see if you can get into a top school somewhere?
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: jack24 on April 26, 2011, 11:23:48 AM
sethayates:

Your question is difficult to answer. I go to a T2 that competes for the market with a few T3s.  Our school doesn't dominate those other schools, but we have a significant advantage (especially as a tiebreaker).
I don't know why you are tied down to a particular area (maybe you own a house or something), but it's really difficult to predict your job chances out of a T3 or T4 school.  Lets say you go to the University of Montana (T3) Or the University of South Dakota (T4 I think?).  If you rank in the top 10%, you are almost guaranteed a good job at a mid-sized firm (especially if you want to do tax law).  If you go to a decent T2, like the University of New Mexico (which also dominates it's local market), and you rank right around the middle, you might be struggling to find a job at all when you graduate.
The problem is there's no guarantee you'll do any better at a T3 than you would at a T2.  Ranking in the top 10% is really hard no matter what school you go to.
If you get in the top third at your T3/T4, bust your butt your 2l Year to get a good summer job, and network all three years, (all difficult to do) you will probably be alright.  It just might be easier at a "better" school.
   
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: sethayates on April 26, 2011, 03:56:24 PM
Thank you for the answers.  The reason I am considering staying in the area is exactly what you mentioned. I own a house here.  I do not have a wife or any kids so I could presumeably leave.  WIth all of the research I have done it seems like it would be a big risk to pick up and leave to go to law school.

A lot of people would probably think I am crazy for turning down accouting jobs which generally pay about the same as most low end law jobs just to waste 3 years of my life and a lot of money for a degree from a 4th tier law school.

Your comments are definitly noted though.  It seems kind of odd to me that so much in the law world is based strictly on where you went and not what you know. I am starting to grasp the concept though and I will continue to research.  Thank you for the input.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: bigs5068 on April 26, 2011, 06:09:08 PM
Basically everything Jack said is true. I attend a Tier 4 school in a crowded market San Francisco and it works out for some and not for others. Law school is really no different from anything else in life how it turns out depends largely on YOU. If you finish in the top 10% at any ABA school you are going to be alright, but as Jack said it is very difficult to do and there is a 90% chance you won't be in the top 10% at any ABA school.

Even if you do not rank highly if you get a lot of legal experience you can probably find a job. There are just a million different things that can happen and law school like any other educational investment is a risk. However, if you want to be a lawyer then go to law school because there is a 0% chance you will be a lawyer without attending law school. Also remember law school is a LONG-TERM investment. You will have the ability to be a lawyer for the rest of your life if you get a J.D. and if you practice law for 10-15 years no matter what school you went if you practice law for 15 years or do anything for 15 years you are going to be pretty good at it. Law is a demanding profession with high stakes and if you can handle it then you will be alright. Harvard Lawyers screw up as do Cooley Grads and if you watch any court proceeding you will notice what law school the attorneys went to never comes up. If you are good then you will get the result your client wants and you will get more clients which means more money and so on. If you are terrible then you will not get good results your client will be pissed and you will not get more clients and you won't make money and sh** will hit the fan.

All the negative stuff you read on ridiculous websites like JD underground etc are b.s. If someone sits around on a website complaining about how unfair everything is you have to question the person spending all their time female dog*** instead of getting something done. Whining and complaining doesn't get it done in any aspect of life and law school is no different. People that go out and get sh** done succeed in life no matter what school they went to and people that sit around and bi*** sit around and bi*** no matter what school they went to.

If you want to be a lawyer then go to law school and do the best you can. If you work hard, are respectful to others, and can handle a few rejections along the way you will probably be alright.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: MikePing on April 27, 2011, 12:29:18 PM
While the difference in ranking will follow you for a long time, some tier 4s are much better than others.  Great example is in the Houston market:  South Texas v. Texas Southern.  South Texas graduates have a huge advantage over TSU--even the top 10%.  The right law school for you will depend on too many factors for any list to give you the answer.   

You are still very young, I wouldn't worry too much about the time commitment.  The real question is whether you would enjoy being a lawyer or not.  If you would, go to the best law school for you. 

Your concern about what people would think if you sold your house and moved to go to law school should not be an issue.  The fact you mention it signals that you probably need further consideration on whether being a lawyer is the right move for you.   Law school for the sake of extra options = a bad idea. 
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: vap on April 30, 2011, 07:32:46 AM
My Questions is mostly aimed at the 3rd and 4th tier students.  What has your experience been like?  Would you make the same decision again?

I recently graduated from Mercer.  I had a full ride + living stipend and graduated without debt.  I would make the same decision given my options (mediocre first tier schools with $120,000 debt).  I got a job in my preferred state clerking for a judge--the type of job I wanted before school.
Title: Re: Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:
Post by: jack24 on April 30, 2011, 09:34:25 AM
My Questions is mostly aimed at the 3rd and 4th tier students.  What has your experience been like?  Would you make the same decision again?

I recently graduated from Mercer.  I had a full ride + living stipend and graduated without debt.  I would make the same decision given my options (mediocre first tier schools with $120,000 debt).  I got a job in my preferred state clerking for a judge--the type of job I wanted before school.

Yeah, so feel free to go to any school you want if it means no debt and getting the job you want.