Law School Discussion

Specific Groups => Minority and Non-Traditional Law Students => Topic started by: 1LCorvo on March 17, 2007, 10:52:21 PM

Title: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: 1LCorvo on March 17, 2007, 10:52:21 PM
 
 Middle class african americans DON'T need AA programs. It does not make much sense to give a person an unfair advantage, when the resources are obtainable. It seems to beg the question. If one has the available resource to excel (academically), then it is rather unjust to give assistance to those who do not really need it. Nevertheless, it does not seem to follow that a person should receive help because of their race; apropos their skin color. Since it does not follow, it is not a legitimate argument to justify providing AA for all african americans. Those who deserve the advantage, are those who are poor (who live in impoverished areas)-regardless of race.

I suppose that race based AA is rather antiquated and injurious. My arguments aren't new, but I would like to hear some rebuttals from blacks, whom seem to benefit from AA (when they do not need it)...I make this claim because (presumably) middle class AA tend to go to law school at a higher rate than poorer AA. If it is your desire, correct me when I have erred.

BTW, I am an African American dude; born in the ghetto of Newark NJ. But, this certainly ought not vitiate my claims.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: tigerfly0110 on March 17, 2007, 11:09:21 PM
I am not an Upper-Middle Class African American and I came from an impoverished community myself so I will cannot comment on your question about how Middle Class African Americans might feel.  However,you might want to consider that Middle Class Blacks are still equivalent to lower class Whites economically.  On average (according to the most recent sensus and what i've learned in most Sociology, AAS and History classes at Emory) middle class African Americans have about $3000 in income (money earned through working) and wealth (assets such as home, stocks, bonds etc.) while middle class Whites have about $40,000.  Institutional racism affects ALL minorities regardles of income and the historical barriers that Blacks have had to cross still exist.  Lastly, I wish people (not just you) would stop making Afirmative Action a Black issue.  White women have been and still are the major beneficiaries of Affirmative Action AND Affirmative Action DOES work for economically deprived people as well.  In case you hadn't read most of your applications the personal statements tend to ask people to describe any hardships they have overcome.  This information works in your favor as well.  In short, EVERYONE benefits from some form of Affirmative Action.  Its purpose was and is to create an equal playing field for all those applying to college.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: jillibean on March 18, 2007, 06:03:32 AM
all blacks need AA-- they are still underrepresented in most professional careers especially black men and most black people are middle class- they don't have the contacts that old white guys have. I grew up in a black upper class family and it's just stupid to think that there shouldn't be AA because of your economic staus. Its based on race. When I am no longer the only black on the block or the only black at my school then maybe I will agree with you but until then....
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: naturallybeyoutiful on March 18, 2007, 06:21:03 AM
I've never been too fond of African Americans in the upper (middle) class. There is something rather duplicitous about them, yet I cannot put my finger on it. 

:-\ I wonder what kind of world we'd have if people in real positions of power--teachers, professors, policemen, judges, managers, supervisors, storekeepers, insurance agents, salesmen, medical professionals, lawyers, politicians, etc.--felt the the same way.  What kind of a mess would we really be in if people had the  unmitigated discretion and authority to make decisions consistent with their disdain (or, as you put it, lack of "fondness") for a particular group?  Imagine the way such attitudes from cradle to grave would likely affect the life chances of people from the impacted group.  Imagine why there would be a need for some measure to ensure that your highly subjective (and perhaps baseless) lack of "fondness" doesn't get a free pass to rear its ugly head unrestrained and unchecked whenever it fancies you to do so.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: sharky on March 18, 2007, 07:12:51 AM
I can understand the claim that white women historically have benefited "the most" from AA, but is there anything to back up your claim that white women CONTINUE to benefit from AA at a higher rate than black men or black women?  Seems like a bold statement sans evidence, or an opinion submitted as fact.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: Captain on March 18, 2007, 10:12:21 AM
I can understand the claim that white women historically have benefited "the most" from AA, but is there anything to back up your claim that white women CONTINUE to benefit from AA at a higher rate than black men or black women?  Seems like a bold statement sans evidence, or an opinion submitted as fact.


TITCQ

Middle class blacks/hispanics/whites/whoever, all have the same advantages -- educationally speaking. The traditional example of how the SAT was racially biased, was "if there is an analogy that asks me for a synonym for 'regatta,' how is some kid from a poor black neighborhood going to know what that is?"

Well, if you're black and middle class, you have about the same chance of your dad being a member of the yacht club as the white kid on your street.

Helping poor students to get out of a bad situation is at least a noble cause, but Michael Jordan's kid doesn't need an added advantage.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: 1LCorvo on March 18, 2007, 11:53:36 AM
I've never been too fond of African Americans in the upper (middle) class. There is something rather duplicitous about them, yet I cannot put my finger on it. 

:-\ I wonder what kind of world we'd have if people in real positions of power--teachers, professors, policemen, judges, managers, supervisors, storekeepers, insurance agents, salesmen, medical professionals, lawyers, politicians, etc.--felt the the same way.  What kind of a mess would we really be in if people had the  unmitigated discretion and authority to make decisions consistent with their disdain (or, as you put it, lack of "fondness") for a particular group?  Imagine the way such attitudes from cradle to grave would likely affect the life chances of people from the impacted group.  Imagine why there would be a need for some measure to ensure that your highly subjective (and perhaps baseless) lack of "fondness" doesn't get a free pass to rear its ugly head unrestrained and unchecked whenever it fancies you to do so.


This is extraneous to the main discussion. However, even if I am not fond of a group's actions, it does not follow that I will deny them an opportunity of any sort. Moreover, it does not follow that legislation is needed to ensure that they'll receive these opportunities. For instance, I might despise Dennis Rodman's antics off the court, but when he gets on the court, it is an entirely different ball game.

Race based AA presumes that how whites treated blacks in the past will continue in the future. However, any student of David Hume will note there is a fallacy in that type of reasoning. One cannot project past regularities onto the future (neither deductive nor inductive reasoning ensures such a position). And, I reckon that many african americans (primarily those that benefit, apropos middle class blacks) will continue to use such logic (albeit fallacious logic).
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: 1LCorvo on March 18, 2007, 12:03:32 PM
all blacks need AA-- they are still underrepresented in most professional careers especially black men and most black people are middle class- they don't have the contacts that old white guys have. I grew up in a black upper class family and it's just stupid to think that there shouldn't be AA because of your economic staus. Its based on race. When I am no longer the only black on the block or the only black at my school then maybe I will agree with you but until then....

Midgets are also underrepresented, ought we to create legislation to ensure that they are represented. How about basketball players? Your reasoning is apparently flawed.
How you perform academically is ultimately tied to your available resources. If you have to money to afford a tutor, you purchase one. When does race become a factor? Are schools denying blacks the opportunity to learn? Perhaps in 1947, but not in 2007 (maybe in isolated events). However, middle class blacks do not suffer from the same economic obstacles that poor whites, asians, latinos, and blacks suffer from.

Moreover, I never argued that there should not be AA. That's a presumption on your part (also a straw-man fallacy). If AA is to exist, it must not be tied to race. All blacks do not need AA. Some blacks might need it, but not all. And, if they do need it, it is not because they are black. But, for other reasons like poverty.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: Captain on March 18, 2007, 12:13:21 PM
However, any student of David Hume ...

I was only at the University of Edinburgh for a semester, but I still get a warm and fuzzy feeling every time I hear this guy's name mentioned. :-D


Midgets are also underrepresented, ought we to create legislation to ensure that they are represented. How about basketball players? Your reasoning is apparently flawed.
How you perform academically is ultimately tied to your available resources. If you have to money to afford a tutor, you purchase one. When does race become a factor? Are schools denying blacks the opportunity to learn? Perhaps in 1947, but not in 2007 (maybe in isolated events). However, middle class blacks do not suffer from the same economic obstacles that poor whites, asians, latinos, and blacks suffer from.

Moreover, I never argued that there should not be AA. That's a presumption on your part (also a straw-man fallacy). If AA is to exist, it must not be tied to race. All blacks do not need AA. Some blacks might need it, but not all. And, if they do need it, it is not because they are black. But, for other reasons like poverty.

I was going to reply to that one as well. As I said, Michael Jordan's kid doesn't need AA. He's rich no matter what. If he's an idiot and can't pass a class, he's going to be well-off. His dad went to college. He will go to college most likely. He can get tutors, go to an SAT class and a Prep School.

If you want to increase the number of black families in middle-class suburban and upper-class neighborhoods, you need to bring kids out of the lower-class inner-cities.

In fact, allowing AA to benefit rich or middle-class kids really only takes that opportunity away from a poor kid in the Bronx who needs it more.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: 1LCorvo on March 18, 2007, 12:26:17 PM
However, any student of David Hume ...

I was only at the University of Edinburgh for a semester, but I still get a warm and fuzzy feeling every time I hear this guy's name mentioned. :-D


Midgets are also underrepresented, ought we to create legislation to ensure that they are represented. How about basketball players? Your reasoning is apparently flawed.
How you perform academically is ultimately tied to your available resources. If you have to money to afford a tutor, you purchase one. When does race become a factor? Are schools denying blacks the opportunity to learn? Perhaps in 1947, but not in 2007 (maybe in isolated events). However, middle class blacks do not suffer from the same economic obstacles that poor whites, asians, latinos, and blacks suffer from.

Moreover, I never argued that there should not be AA. That's a presumption on your part (also a straw-man fallacy). If AA is to exist, it must not be tied to race. All blacks do not need AA. Some blacks might need it, but not all. And, if they do need it, it is not because they are black. But, for other reasons like poverty.

I was going to reply to that one as well. As I said, Michael Jordan's kid doesn't need AA. He's rich no matter what. If he's an idiot and can't pass a class, he's going to be well-off. His dad went to college. He will go to college most likely. He can get tutors, go to an SAT class and a Prep School.

If you want to increase the number of black families in middle-class suburban and upper-class neighborhoods, you need to bring kids out of the lower-class inner-cities.

In fact, allowing AA to benefit rich or middle-class kids really only takes that opportunity away from a poor kid in the Bronx who needs it more.

Intuitively, those that benefit from something, will not want to let it go. In the process, they'll use anything (even bad reasoning) to justify why that something should remain the same. For instance, slave owners (and those who benefited) argued that the bible justify slavery. It is a natural thing to do. So, I sort of understand why middle class blacks tend to feverently defend AA. However, CL already noted, supporting how AA is currently practiced, may be a detrement to those who really need it.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: 1LCorvo on March 18, 2007, 12:27:39 PM
However, any student of David Hume ...

I was only at the University of Edinburgh for a semester, but I still get a warm and fuzzy feeling every time I hear this guy's name mentioned. :-D



BTW, David Hume is a fantastic philosopher...
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: jillibean on March 18, 2007, 02:08:42 PM
However, any student of David Hume ...

I was only at the University of Edinburgh for a semester, but I still get a warm and fuzzy feeling every time I hear this guy's name mentioned. :-D


Midgets are also underrepresented, ought we to create legislation to ensure that they are represented. How about basketball players? Your reasoning is apparently flawed.
How you perform academically is ultimately tied to your available resources. If you have to money to afford a tutor, you purchase one. When does race become a factor? Are schools denying blacks the opportunity to learn? Perhaps in 1947, but not in 2007 (maybe in isolated events). However, middle class blacks do not suffer from the same economic obstacles that poor whites, asians, latinos, and blacks suffer from.

Moreover, I never argued that there should not be AA. That's a presumption on your part (also a straw-man fallacy). If AA is to exist, it must not be tied to race. All blacks do not need AA. Some blacks might need it, but not all. And, if they do need it, it is not because they are black. But, for other reasons like poverty.

I was going to reply to that one as well. As I said, Michael Jordan's kid doesn't need AA. He's rich no matter what. If he's an idiot and can't pass a class, he's going to be well-off. His dad went to college. He will go to college most likely. He can get tutors, go to an SAT class and a Prep School.

If you want to increase the number of black families in middle-class suburban and upper-class neighborhoods, you need to bring kids out of the lower-class inner-cities.

In fact, allowing AA to benefit rich or middle-class kids really only takes that opportunity away from a poor kid in the Bronx who needs it more.


Well guess what- a kid from the bronx and a middle-class black are most likely the same thing. The middle class is not the upper class- lets not get that confused. And no matter how much you talk about it there will never be a way to give just economically poor blacks AA and not to those who are well off- try to manage that one and I'm pretty sure that the whole system would go away pretty fast. Look up the actual purpose of AA and maybe that will make more sense- you can't just shut off one part of a group. There are programs out there for the disadvantaged, AA is not one of them and it was never supposed to be- it's based on race and sex.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: naturallybeyoutiful on March 18, 2007, 02:28:12 PM
I've never been too fond of African Americans in the upper (middle) class. There is something rather duplicitous about them, yet I cannot put my finger on it. 

:-\ I wonder what kind of world we'd have if people in real positions of power--teachers, professors, policemen, judges, managers, supervisors, storekeepers, insurance agents, salesmen, medical professionals, lawyers, politicians, etc.--felt the the same way.  What kind of a mess would we really be in if people had the  unmitigated discretion and authority to make decisions consistent with their disdain (or, as you put it, lack of "fondness") for a particular group?  Imagine the way such attitudes from cradle to grave would likely affect the life chances of people from the impacted group.  Imagine why there would be a need for some measure to ensure that your highly subjective (and perhaps baseless) lack of "fondness" doesn't get a free pass to rear its ugly head unrestrained and unchecked whenever it fancies you to do so.

This is extraneous to the main discussion.
Not exactly.  I think there is strong correlation between attitudes and beliefs presently held and the actions they inspire.


However, even if I am not fond of a group's actions, it does not follow that I will deny them an opportunity of any sort.
In issues of the sort we are talking about, both history and experience prove otherwise. (btw - Your initial comment talked about not being fond of the people in and of themselves; you did not limit yourself to simply evaluating their actions.)


Moreover, it does not follow that legislation is needed to ensure that they'll receive these opportunities.  For instance, I might despise Dennis Rodman's antics off the court, but when he gets on the court, it is an entirely different ball game.
If you are comparing antics on a basketball court to a political, economic, academic, and cultural system that was built on a system of racial preferences for Europeans (at the expense of all others) that was in effect the day the first black Africans stepped off the boat in 1619 in Jamestown, VA -- I can see that this conversation is going nowhere fast. 


Race based AA presumes that how whites treated blacks in the past will continue in the future.  However, any student of David Hume will note there is a fallacy in that type of reasoning. One cannot project past regularities onto the future (neither deductive nor inductive reasoning ensures such a position). And, I reckon that many african americans (primarily those that benefit, apropos middle class blacks) will continue to use such logic (albeit fallacious logic).
Is this fallacy similar to the way that you presume that middle-class African Americans who have been "duplicitous" in the past will continue to be that way (thus, consistently evoking and justifying your lack of fondness) in the future?


To be clear -- I have no real desire to debate AA at this point.  Just yesterday I attended a conference where UCLA professor Richard Sander was presenting his same old arguments against AA, and it was clear that even he was unable to answer my questions sufficiently.  I did, however, find it necessary to get some clarification on some of the points you raised. 

Also, please note that it should not be inferred from any of my statements or the color of my skin that I am for or against AA.  I simply am interested in receiving an answer to the question I initially posed.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: 1LCorvo on March 18, 2007, 03:35:22 PM
I want to note a few things:

(1) A strong correlation does not imply necessary causation. Most of us are familiar with the dreaded LSAT, so this should be standard knowledge. Thus, even if one's presently held belief strongly correlate to actions inspired, it does not follow that they direct certain actions. Moreover, it is debatable that this claim applies to everyone. It might be the case that some people act in accordance to their presently held beliefs. But, again, it does not follow that all people will act. More importantly, it does not follow that they will always act in conjunction with their presently held beliefs. I'm not arguing that beliefs do not affect actions. Yet, I'm arguing that it does not necessarily follow...

(2) Even if I committ a similar fallacy (which is debatable), it does absolve you of the fact that you still committed the fallacy.
I trust that this isn't your argument is not as follows:

P1: You commited fallacy X, therefore your reasoning is flawed
P2: Well you committed fallacy X at time t, therefore your reasoning is also flawed
P1: However, you still committed the fallacy, so how will you fix your logic
P2: Well, you still committed the same fallacy, so how will you fix your logic too!
...ad infinitum

Invoking that I committed the same fallacy isn't a defense; it is a fallacy (see tu quoque fallacy). Pointing out fallacies can be annoying and fastidious. However, it is something that must be done to ensure reasonable and responsible discussion.

(3) I concede that we will probably gain little from this discussion. I'm sure I've done little to convert any of you to my position. And,suffice it to say that much has not changed on my side of the park as well. However, in due time, one must admit that AA will become obsolete for some. I think this applies to middle class blacks, just like it applies to middle class white females. But, only time will tell. In the end, however, I appreciate the discussion; and perhaps, I'll see you (meaning all) down the road.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: naturallybeyoutiful on March 18, 2007, 04:02:49 PM
Hi 1L.  Thanks for your response.

1) A strong correlation does not imply necessary causation.
On this point, I am clear.  That is why I used the word correlation. 


(2) Even if I committ a similar fallacy (which is debatable), it does absolve you of the fact that you still committed the fallacy.
I'm assuming you mean that if you did commit a fallacy, it does NOT absolve me from having done the same.


I trust that this isn't your argument is not as follows:

P1: You commited fallacy X, therefore your reasoning is flawed
P2: Well you committed fallacy X at time t, therefore your reasoning is also flawed
P1: However, you still committed the fallacy, so how will you fix your logic
P2: Well, you still committed the same fallacy, so how will you fix your logic too!
...ad infinitum
If you were to trust that, you'd be correct.


Invoking that I committed the same fallacy isn't a defense; it is a fallacy (see tu quoque fallacy). Pointing out fallacies can be annoying and fastidious. However, it is something that must be done to ensure reasonable and responsible discussion.
On these points, we can agree.  My need for clarification on your part was meant to be neither a defense of my position (which I have not yet articulated) or an attack against your own.  My statement in no way should have led you to conclude that I discredited your arguments against AA because you committed a logical fallacy in stating your position about another matter.  Your third sentence above leads me to believe that we are both clear as to why logical fallacies must be pointed out.  While principles of logic alone are not sufficient to lead us to truth, they do go a long way in helping us to detect error. 


(3) I concede that we will probably gain little from this discussion. I'm sure I've done little to convert any of you to my position. And,suffice it to say that much has not changed on my side of the park as well. However, in due time, one must admit that AA will become obsolete for some.I think this applies to middle class blacks, just like it applies to middle class white females. But, only time will tell. In the end, however, I appreciate the discussion; and perhaps, I'll see you (meaning all) down the road.
I, too, appreciate the discussion.  Good luck to you in law school and beyond! :)
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: Captain on March 18, 2007, 04:45:47 PM
Well guess what- a kid from the bronx and a middle-class black are most likely the same thing. The middle class is not the upper class- lets not get that confused. And no matter how much you talk about it there will never be a way to give just economically poor blacks AA and not to those who are well off- try to manage that one and I'm pretty sure that the whole system would go away pretty fast. Look up the actual purpose of AA and maybe that will make more sense- you can't just shut off one part of a group. There are programs out there for the disadvantaged, AA is not one of them and it was never supposed to be- it's based on race and sex.

Um. Middle-class =/= lower-class. Sure, it isn't the same as upper-class either...

BUT, if we exclude the extremely wealthy from the equation: Middle Class families live in the same areas and towns as lower-upper class families. They often go to the same schools, hire the same tutors and SAT/Admissions consultants. Sure, the Middle Class kid might need financial aid to go to college whereas the upper-class kid has parents with enough money to pay for tuition in entirety.

I guess I don't much care about what the "basis" of AA was. I think the point of this thread is to talk about what it should be.

Having a purely race-based AA program is akin to saying that black people are incapable of doing well in school or on standardized tests. I don't believe this is true. Sure, the population of minority groups in Universities is not equivalent to the  population in general, BUT, this is not because middle-class kids of any race are being wrongfully denied admission to college.

There is a much larger percentage of minorities living in inner-cities, where the school districts/crime/etc. all work against them. If we are going to have AA, it should benefit these individuals.

And there damn well is a way to limit AA to the economically disadvantaged. When you apply to universities, they know where you went to school... if you went to a disadvantaged HS in Newark, they have a pretty good idea what sort of economic background you come from.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: donwario on March 19, 2007, 12:25:21 PM
However, any student of David Hume ...



Well guess what- a kid from the bronx and a middle-class black are most likely the same thing. The middle class is not the upper class- lets not get that confused. And no matter how much you talk about it there will never be a way to give just economically poor blacks AA and not to those who are well off- try to manage that one and I'm pretty sure that the whole system would go away pretty fast. Look up the actual purpose of AA and maybe that will make more sense- you can't just shut off one part of a group. There are programs out there for the disadvantaged, AA is not one of them and it was never supposed to be- it's based on race and sex.

What is the actual purpose of AA?
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: Captain on March 19, 2007, 12:59:34 PM
However, any student of David Hume ...



Well guess what- a kid from the bronx and a middle-class black are most likely the same thing. The middle class is not the upper class- lets not get that confused. And no matter how much you talk about it there will never be a way to give just economically poor blacks AA and not to those who are well off- try to manage that one and I'm pretty sure that the whole system would go away pretty fast. Look up the actual purpose of AA and maybe that will make more sense- you can't just shut off one part of a group. There are programs out there for the disadvantaged, AA is not one of them and it was never supposed to be- it's based on race and sex.

What is the actual purpose of AA?

The purpose is to make the percentage of minority groups in higher education be equal to the percentage in the general population.

Apparently this works by taking kids who were going to go to college anyway, and sending them to Yale instead of Rutgers.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: donwario on March 19, 2007, 01:43:07 PM
However, any student of David Hume ...



Well guess what- a kid from the bronx and a middle-class black are most likely the same thing. The middle class is not the upper class- lets not get that confused. And no matter how much you talk about it there will never be a way to give just economically poor blacks AA and not to those who are well off- try to manage that one and I'm pretty sure that the whole system would go away pretty fast. Look up the actual purpose of AA and maybe that will make more sense- you can't just shut off one part of a group. There are programs out there for the disadvantaged, AA is not one of them and it was never supposed to be- it's based on race and sex.

What is the actual purpose of AA?

The purpose is to make the percentage of minority groups in higher education be equal to the percentage in the general population.
Apparently this works by taking kids who were going to go to college anyway, and sending them to Yale instead of Rutgers.

Are you saying that the Supreme Court allows AA as an instument to make the percentage of minority groups in higher education equal to the percentage in the general population? Which case does that come from? I thought the Supreme Court ruled that AA could be used by schools to promote diversity for the benefit of the school if the school desired to do so.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: donwario on March 19, 2007, 02:03:56 PM
Wow...no wonder we have so many problems.

?
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: Captain on March 19, 2007, 02:10:41 PM
However, any student of David Hume ...



Well guess what- a kid from the bronx and a middle-class black are most likely the same thing. The middle class is not the upper class- lets not get that confused. And no matter how much you talk about it there will never be a way to give just economically poor blacks AA and not to those who are well off- try to manage that one and I'm pretty sure that the whole system would go away pretty fast. Look up the actual purpose of AA and maybe that will make more sense- you can't just shut off one part of a group. There are programs out there for the disadvantaged, AA is not one of them and it was never supposed to be- it's based on race and sex.

What is the actual purpose of AA?

The purpose is to make the percentage of minority groups in higher education be equal to the percentage in the general population.
Apparently this works by taking kids who were going to go to college anyway, and sending them to Yale instead of Rutgers.

Are you saying that the Supreme Court allows AA as an instument to make the percentage of minority groups in higher education equal to the percentage in the general population? Which case does that come from? I thought the Supreme Court ruled that AA could be used by schools to promote diversity for the benefit of the school if the school desired to do so.

The question wasn't, "What did the Supreme Court rule that AA could be used for," it was "What is the purpose of AA."

Even so, a middle class black kid from NJ who went to a prep school isn't making your school more diverse. He had basically the same experience as I did... Now, the kid from inner city Newark had a VERY different experience.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: donwario on March 19, 2007, 02:24:12 PM
However, any student of David Hume ...



Well guess what- a kid from the bronx and a middle-class black are most likely the same thing. The middle class is not the upper class- lets not get that confused. And no matter how much you talk about it there will never be a way to give just economically poor blacks AA and not to those who are well off- try to manage that one and I'm pretty sure that the whole system would go away pretty fast. Look up the actual purpose of AA and maybe that will make more sense- you can't just shut off one part of a group. There are programs out there for the disadvantaged, AA is not one of them and it was never supposed to be- it's based on race and sex.

What is the actual purpose of AA?

The purpose is to make the percentage of minority groups in higher education be equal to the percentage in the general population.
Apparently this works by taking kids who were going to go to college anyway, and sending them to Yale instead of Rutgers.

Are you saying that the Supreme Court allows AA as an instument to make the percentage of minority groups in higher education equal to the percentage in the general population? Which case does that come from? I thought the Supreme Court ruled that AA could be used by schools to promote diversity for the benefit of the school if the school desired to do so.

The question wasn't, "What did the Supreme Court rule that AA could be used for," it was "What is the purpose of AA."

Even so, a middle class black kid from NJ who went to a prep school isn't making your school more diverse. He had basically the same experience as I did... Now, the kid from inner city Newark had a VERY different experience.

I'm still a little confused by Jillibean's post to "Look up the actual purpose of AA and maybe that will make more sense." Where do you look up the actual purpose?


On the other issue, your example raises a valid point.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: donwario on March 19, 2007, 02:40:29 PM
Why do people make such a big deal of a few blacks getting into law school? Because it really is still a few...

I'm not sure I follow. Do you mean it is not worth discussing because of the number of students?
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: naturallybeyoutiful on March 19, 2007, 03:26:42 PM
Even so, a middle class black kid from NJ who went to a prep school isn't making your school more diverse. He had basically the same experience as I did... Now, the kid from inner city Newark had a VERY different experience.

With all due respect, Captain Longshot --
I do take issue with the bolded statements, particularly the latter.  Being black in this country IS in itself an experience. It would be incorrect of you to assume that a middle class black kid attending a prep school is (a) receiving similar benefits and opportunities in both home, school, and society as white kids from the same social class or is (b) somehow immune from facing some of the same obstacles, discrimination, and barriers to opportunity as do blacks of a lower social status. 

I find it difficult to believe that the student you referenced (and the family he hails from) is simply living a "chocolate-covered" version of your life, as your second statement seems to imply.  This seems to be a conception of "race" that a non-minority would likely hold.  I would venture to guess that you may simply not know this student well enough, or be made privy to enough of his family's business, to genuinely know whether "he had basically the same experience [you] did."  In fact, I wouldn't be surprised at all to find that he may have a "VERY different experience" than *YOU*, while at the same time share a wealth of common experiences with that black kid from Newark.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: 1LCorvo on March 19, 2007, 05:03:38 PM
A great deal has been said since my latest comments. In any case, I think Captain Longshot has a point (albeit a deceptively valid and good one).

In seems as if the main thesis for those who defend AA is that MOST blacks (despite economic status) still suffer in this country. One might easily look at the number of black students who attend law school, and subsequently go on to practice law. Thus, AA is justified because of the fact that blacks (of any class) are still second, or maybe third, class citizens. However, there's a HUGE problem with this reasoning, that is to say, it is not quite right. African Americans, today, have gained so much. Sure, we do not have thirty members in the senate, but we are making strides in many other professions. I think this is particularly noticable among middle class African Americans; and hence the disutility of a program such as AA.

Suffice it to say that middle class blacks have a different experience than lower (poor) class blacks. They are usually better educated, with more access to resources. As longshot was trying to state, middle class blacks usually enjoy a financial burden-less (not to say that they are immune to financial problems) life comparable to middle class whites. Which, theoretically, ought to put them in a better academic situation than say poor whites and asians. This, in turn, should translate into higher LSAT scores and UGPAs.

In any case, it seems erroneous to argue that African American's have different life experience because of their skin color. This supposes that blacks have experiences that raise awareness to the fact that they black. Moreover, this also supposes that these "experiences" will lead to something intriguing about the person, which might add to the diversity of a law class. Again, none of this follows. Being black doesn't necessarily lead to having a distinct burdensome black experience (whatever that means).

Excuse me if I've gone off a tangent. I'm not even sure what my original purpose was...but I do look forward to you ripping me apart.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: UGAfootballfanatic on March 19, 2007, 05:35:13 PM
This was posted on the students and grads board, but it does fit into this discussion well:


http://www.law.ucla.edu/sander/Systemic/final/SanderFINAL.pdf

The author is a law school professor who studies race and the law, and his overall conclusion is that AA doesn't help but instead hurts the students it was created to help. Why? Because those students end up in schools where they will struggle, often end up in the bottom of the class, and get a bigger disincentive for being lower ranked in the class than if they'd gone to school with their academic peers and ranked in the middle of the class.
Just one person's opinion, but this is very well reasoned out, and has one of the few places where you can get hard #'s related to LS performance and race.

My personal experience: I know one black student in the top 10% of the class, and both her parents are upper middle class attorneys and doctors. Frankly, she didn't need AA to do well, and was probably going to succeed where ever she went because she was well prepared and frankly, works her a55 off.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: naturallybeyoutiful on March 19, 2007, 06:49:46 PM
African Americans, today, have gained so much. Sure, we do not have thirty members in the senate, but we are making strides in many other professions. I think this is particularly noticable among middle class African Americans; and hence the disutility of a program such as AA.
I'm not exactly clear as to how the moderate gains blacks have made over the past 40 years justify an outright dissolution of AA programs.  I'd be interested in hearing more about this though.


Suffice it to say that middle class blacks have a different experience than lower (poor) class blacks. They are usually better educated, with more access to resources.
If the applicant pool were made up only of "lower (poor) class blacks, " then I could understand not supporting AA for middle class blacks on those grounds. 


As longshot was trying to state, middle class blacks usually enjoy a financial burden-less (not to say that they are immune to financial problems) life comparable to middle class whites. Which, theoretically, ought to put them in a better academic situation than say poor whites and asians. This, in turn, should translate into higher LSAT scores and UGPAs.
I've never seen anyone in the middle class living a financially burdenless life, particularly in the black middle class which has not yet achieved parity with the white middle class.  That aside, I think your last points get closer to substantive issues.  The real question that you are raising here is, then why do black applicants on average have lower LSATs and GPAs than the rest of the population, even of students from lower social classes.  This is an idea worth discussing because, barring any ludicrous claims of genetic/innate inferiority, it raises the issue that there must be some other mitigating factors (internal or external to the black applicant pool) at work. 


In any case, it seems erroneous to argue that African American's have different life experience because of their skin color.
I could accept this statement were we not living in a country founded on a racial caste system.  It would think it would be erroneous to make rash judgments about a particular individual, but quite acceptable to speak about the increased likelihood of members of a group on average to be dealing with a set of conditions known to be present within a racial caste system.


This supposes that blacks have experiences that raise awareness to the fact that they black.
I've never met a black person in this country who was completely unaware that they were black.  Unaccepting perhaps.  Unaware, doubtful!


Moreover, this also supposes that these "experiences" will lead to something intriguing about the person, which might add to the diversity of a law class. Again, none of this follows. Being black doesn't necessarily lead to having a distinct burdensome black experience (whatever that means).
In some ways, I agree with your first statement.  The point I tried to make in my clarification to Longshot was that he could not assume that a black person of his same socio-economic status shared his life experience.  This in no way conflicts with what you just shared here.  I agree that the simple fact that a person has "black" skin is not in and of itself an indicator of "diversity."  It is the growing up, attending schools, renting or buying a house, applying for jobs, receiving services, choosing a neighborhood, buying a car, raising your kids, demanding equal access to any and everything, and driving while black (not by any stretch an all-inclusive list!) that create the diversity of experience that is common to many blacks in this country, irrespective of social class. 


Excuse me if I've gone off a tangent. I'm not even sure what my original purpose was...but I do look forward to you ripping me apart.
:D  Never that!  Thanks for posting.  Discussing issues like this sharpens us all! 
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: naturallybeyoutiful on March 19, 2007, 06:53:04 PM
http://www.law.ucla.edu/sander/Systemic/final/SanderFINAL.pdf

The author is a law school professor who studies race and the law, and his overall conclusion is that AA doesn't help but instead hurts the students it was created to help. Why? Because those students end up in schools where they will struggle, often end up in the bottom of the class, and get a bigger disincentive for being lower ranked in the class than if they'd gone to school with their academic peers and ranked in the middle of the class.
Just one person's opinion, but this is very well reasoned out, and has one of the few places where you can get hard #'s related to LS performance and race.

I just heard him speak at a conference this weekend.  I agree that the introduction of empirical data is a boon to discussions like these.  I will say that Sander makes a number of points that require careful consideration.  I will also say that it was interesting (a) to see other professors/practitioners use his same data in other presentations and arrive at just as compelling yet differing conclusions, and (b) to not feel like he adequately answered my question to him about his position.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: 1LCorvo on March 19, 2007, 07:51:11 PM
Quote from: 1LCorvo on Today at 08:03:38 PM
African Americans, today, have gained so much. Sure, we do not have thirty members in the senate, but we are making strides in many other professions. I think this is particularly noticable among middle class African Americans; and hence the disutility of a program such as AA.

I'm not exactly clear as to how the moderate gains blacks have made over the past 40 years justify an outright dissolution of AA programs.  I'd be interested in hearing more about this though.

I am certainly not advocating the outright dissolution of AA programs. However, I do
believe that AA programs should be geared toward students who need it more (i.e. students from lower class families)-regardless of race. With that said, I think a proportionate number of blacks benefited from AA programs of the past, and it would seem reasonable to suggest that their offspring ought not to need it. Yet, it seems as if AA programs are being recycled. So, those who benefited from it in the past are continuing to benefit (well at least their offspring). And, I’m pretty confident that there is a general approbation on the classic “Michael Jordan Sons Case”. That is, most would agree that AA programs should not benefit the offspring of parents that are incredibly rich (i.e. Michael Jordan) over a poor ____ child from the ghetto.


Quote from: 1LCorvo on Today at 08:03:38 PM
As longshot was trying to state, middle class blacks usually enjoy a financial burden-less (not to say that they are immune to financial problems) life comparable to middle class whites. Which, theoretically, ought to put them in a better academic situation than say poor whites and asians. This, in turn, should translate into higher LSAT scores and UGPAs.
I've never seen anyone in the middle class living a financially burdenless life, particularly in the black middle class which has not yet achieved parity with the white middle class.  That aside, I think your last points get closer to substantive issues.  The real question that you are raising here is, then why do black applicants on average have lower LSATs and GPAs than the rest of the population, even of students from lower social classes.  This is an idea worth discussing because, barring any ludicrous claims of genetic/innate inferiority, it raises the issue that there must be some other mitigating factors (internal or external to the black applicant pool) at work.

Burdenless is a terrible word to use (is it even a word?). A clearer term might be financial stable. However, being financial stable rest on a continuum. So, there are some people who barely worry (i.e. paying the bills) about finances-think Bill Gates. While, there might exist those who are living pay check to pay check.
In any case, the LSAT/GPA discrepancies among white/Asian and black law applicants are unexplained phenomena. However, do you think the comfort of AA might contribute to black students and their performance on the LSAT. That is, since black students can rely somewhat on AA programs to gain seats into top programs, they do not stress as much over the LSAT (probably study less). It is sort like when you have a tough older brother. So, at times, you feel like you can get away with murder. That’s just one possible explanation. I’m confident that there are many more.


Quote from: 1LCorvo on Today at 08:03:38 PM
In any case, it seems erroneous to argue that African American's have different life experience because of their skin color.

I could accept this statement were we not living in a country founded on a racial caste system.  It would think it would be erroneous to make rash judgments about a particular individual, but quite acceptable to speak about the increased likelihood of members of a group on average to be dealing with a set of conditions known to be present within a racial caste system.
I agree (though hesitantly)

Quote from: 1LCorvo on Today at 08:03:38 PM
This supposes that blacks have experiences that raise awareness to the fact that they black.
I've never met a black person in this country who was completely unaware that they were black.  Unaccepting perhaps.  Unaware, doubtful!

I should have been more specific. “Blackness” is a loaded and often poorly explained concept. The term black could mean a few things depending on the person. Some might view being black as purely genetic (scientific); while others will might add more characteristics (such as a common historical bond, accepted behavior/language, etc.). There seems to be a divide between the purely scientific concept and the metaphysical/theoretical concept. So, when I said that some blacks are “unaware that they are black”, I was referring to the theoretical/metaphysical concept of black. I hope that makes some sense. It seemed like a coherent thought when I was reflecting on it….

Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: 1LCorvo on March 19, 2007, 08:01:42 PM


http://www.law.ucla.edu/sander/Systemic/final/SanderFINAL.pdf

The author is a law school professor who studies race and the law, and his overall conclusion is that AA doesn't help but instead hurts the students it was created to help. Why? Because those students end up in schools where they will struggle, often end up in the bottom of the class, and get a bigger disincentive for being lower ranked in the class than if they'd gone to school with their academic peers and ranked in the middle of the class.
Just one person's opinion, but this is very well reasoned out, and has one of the few places where you can get hard #'s related to LS performance and race.

My personal experience: I know one black student in the top 10% of the class, and both her parents are upper middle class attorneys and doctors. Frankly, she didn't need AA to do well, and was probably going to succeed where ever she went because she was well prepared and frankly, works her a55 off.

This is a controversial article. It was published in 2003, and has received some criticism  (see the following: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=886382 (http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=886382). In any case, I was a somewhat skeptical of the final conclusion. It might be the case that African American peform (on average) worse than whites in the first year of law school. But, there are SO many factors that might contribute to why this is. It seems to matter minutely on the school. this is so because presumably each law school has a similar first year curriculum, so it would not seem to matter what tier the school might be. Thus, I reason that their are other factors (like the enviorment) that would contribute greater to a students performance. And, not so much where they are placed; Unless you can prove that Harvard has a tougher curriculum than say Temple.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: Captain on March 19, 2007, 08:50:06 PM

sure he did  ::)

:( MCB disagrees with me

I just deleted a pretty  long response I was going to post. Frankly, it doesn't matter. All I really care about is if I get into a school or not, at this point, and I don't really care who my classmates are. I'm not interested in being the bad guy in this thread.

I'm staying out of AA threads from now on.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: 1LCorvo on March 19, 2007, 10:22:14 PM

sure he did  ::)

:( MCB disagrees with me

I just deleted a pretty  long response I was going to post. Frankly, it doesn't matter. All I really care about is if I get into a school or not, at this point, and I don't really care who my classmates are. I'm not interested in being the bad guy in this thread.

I'm staying out of AA threads from now on.

Damn, and I was all ready to jump in with my (lower upper class) racial burden, namely that, until you've been spit on, denied service, or various other sundry indignities based on your race, it might behoove you not to presume how much prejudice money can or can't buy off in our fine nation.

Do you think this is enough to justify AA programs? If the admissions process was, indeed, behaving prejudicially against black, then AA might be justified. however, is this the case? Perhaps in the past, but does it still occur today?
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: segundo on March 20, 2007, 06:33:12 AM
Even so, a middle class black kid from NJ who went to a prep school isn't making your school more diverse. He had basically the same experience as I did... Now, the kid from inner city Newark had a VERY different experience.

With all due respect, Captain Longshot --
I do take issue with the bolded statements, particularly the latter.  Being black in this country IS in itself an experience. It would be incorrect of you to assume that a middle class black kid attending a prep school is (a) receiving similar benefits and opportunities in both home, school, and society as white kids from the same social class or is (b) somehow immune from facing some of the same obstacles, discrimination, and barriers to opportunity as do blacks of a lower social status. 

I find it difficult to believe that the student you referenced (and the family he hails from) is simply living a "chocolate-covered" version of your life, as your second statement seems to imply.  This seems to be a conception of "race" that a non-minority would likely hold.  I would venture to guess that you may simply not know this student well enough, or be made privy to enough of his family's business, to genuinely know whether "he had basically the same experience [you] did."  In fact, I wouldn't be surprised at all to find that he may have a "VERY different experience" than *YOU*, while at the same time share a wealth of common experiences with that black kid from Newark.


The example used earlier was not perfectly worded, but was correct in spirit. A better example would have been to say that a black and a white student (from the same high school) who each have parents that earn roughly $70,000 per year are in no different position in terms of access to opportunity or potential for success. Neither of them should be given preference simply based on their race. 
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: UGAfootballfanatic on March 20, 2007, 07:23:03 AM
Sanders' article is controversial, and leaves a lot of room for criticism. But to me, the thesis is that we should look at the long-term consequences of any program quantitatively rather than just assuming that the program is successful. I'd love to see others complile their own data and reanalyze his data as a catalyst to opening up discussion based on real numbers rather than straw men created by both sides.

I am skeptical that the system can be changed at all in the near future. It's become too ingrained and in the short term would lead to a severe drop in URMs at the top schools, law firms, etc. The public owuldn't stand for this, which is why the system would need to be phased out or revised VERY gradually to make progress without hurting those who it had initially intended to help.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: Captain on March 20, 2007, 08:03:06 AM
I am skeptical that the system can be changed at all in the near future. It's become too ingrained and in the short term would lead to a severe drop in URMs at the top schools, law firms, etc. The public owuldn't stand for this, which is why the system would need to be phased out or revised VERY gradually to make progress without hurting those who it had initially intended to help.

Ok, I'm back but only to say the following: AA, or any program like it, should exist, not as a form of repayment for misdeeds, but as a device to create opportunities where none would exist otherwise. America is a land of opportunity (or so we tell ourselves) and education is the mode through which we can all make something of ourselves.

Sadly, in many ways the K-12 education system in this country fails those who are poor. I'm not sure if that system can ever be fixed. AA is (or at least can be) a system to provide students from underprivileged backgrounds with a chance to do better than their parents, and give a better chance for their kids.

I refuse to believe that any racial group is so genetically different that they are not able to score well on standardized tests or do well in school. We're all the same damn species!

I know this isn't the argument that everyone is having here (or maybe it is), but that's my opinion on AA.

(I really wanted out of this conversation, but Paper Chaser is right, the friggin "unread replies" dealie keeps pulling you back in...)
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: 1LCorvo on March 20, 2007, 08:10:02 AM

I think captain longshot's position on AA is the most just one.

So, it is not a refusal of AA, just a slight modification.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: 1LCorvo on March 20, 2007, 08:21:01 AM
MCB

I'm just playing devil's advocate

So, how is this thread (topic i presume) probelmatic?

it does serve a point (albeit subtle)...and the tern "lame" is awfully subjective
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: segundo on March 20, 2007, 09:37:48 AM
I think it's problematic that you think there is something dublicitous about middle class blacks.  Where does this opinon come from?

In any case, let me say for full disclosure that i'm working class and come from a single parent home.  According to Opoto, I've done the "come up"  :D

I don't think middle class blacks defend AA for some ulterior or covert reason.   They defend it bc, despite the problematics behind it (like i personally think it's really sh*tty that a poor rural white kid can't get the same bumbs).  However, it seems to me that you are saying that middle class blks shouldn't get AA and it should solely go to the poorer ones.  But this begs the question--just who is applying to law school in huge amounts?  If it's the middle class ones, should we just forget about them and admit the 5 poorer blks?   And if it's the poorer blks that apply in larger #s, they will probably get looked at with even more attention than the middle class blacks anyway (especially if they cannot tell a compelling story).

Middle class blacks do defend AA for an ulterior reason: they (along with wealthy blacks) are the greatest beneficiaries of AA. The classic argument is that wealth buys access to better schools and greater preparation for standardized testing. Blacks who can afford this are at a competitive advantage from poorer blacks who cannot.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: prelaw200 on March 20, 2007, 09:56:02 AM
I think it's problematic that you think there is something dublicitous about middle class blacks.  Where does this opinon come from?

In any case, let me say for full disclosure that i'm working class and come from a single parent home.  According to Opoto, I've done the "come up"  :D

I don't think middle class blacks defend AA for some ulterior or covert reason.  They defend it bc, despite the problematics behind it (like i personally think it's really sh*tty that a poor rural white kid can't get the same bumbs).  However, it seems to me that you are saying that middle class blks shouldn't get AA and it should solely go to the poorer ones.  But this begs the question--just who is applying to law school in huge amounts?  If it's the middle class ones, should we just forget about them and admit the 5 poorer blks?  And if it's the poorer blks that apply in larger #s, they will probably get looked at with even more attention than the middle class blacks anyway (especially if they cannot tell a compelling story).

Just wondering what you reason for why they defend AA is, it doesn't look like you finished your thought.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: dashrashi on March 20, 2007, 10:13:17 AM
subtle goalie baff

True.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: Miss P on March 20, 2007, 10:14:34 AM
Stay out, girlie. 

 :D

Okay.

Good idea.  [ain't nothing subtle about me]
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: Pulchritudinous Male on March 20, 2007, 10:34:29 AM
Quote
Michael Jordan (attending):
Hakeem Olajuwon (accepted): Duke, Mich, N/W, Penn, UVA, Columbia, Wash U($$$), Temple($$$), Georgetown, Cornell, NYU, Pitt
John Stockton (w/l):Harvard
Sam Bowie (rejected):
Sam Perkins (lost cause): UNC, W&L

Let's get to the real issue at hand. The original poster is a self-admitted African-American, and obviously an intelligent person judging by his acceptances and the way he "speaks". He obviously didn't need AA and since he's from "New Jeruz" and made it without AA then a middle class black DEFINITELY doesn't need it.

Let's give the OP a cookie, no matter fact some biscotti and tea, becuase he's from the 'Hood and didn't need AA.

It's so interesting when I see the African-Americans that are fortunate enough to attain a high level of education automatically assume that becuase they did it that there are no problems, obstacles, or barriers for the rest of their representative race.

Hey buddy I'm genuinely happy about your academic fortunes, but that does not automatically qualify you to make such statements. Just consider yourself fortunate and keep it moving.

Perhaps you feel a little insecure that once you start LS that people will think you benefitted from AA and not becuase of your merit, and this post is a result of the underlying insecurities. I don't know, I never was good at playing Dr. Phil. lol
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: pikey on March 20, 2007, 12:28:12 PM
Did I miss all the fun?
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: 1LCorvo on March 20, 2007, 02:12:13 PM
"It's so interesting when I see the African-Americans that are fortunate enough to attain a high level of education automatically assume that becuase they did it that there are no problems, obstacles, or barriers for the rest of their representative race.

Hey buddy I'm genuinely happy about your academic fortunes, but that does not automatically qualify you to make such statements. Just consider yourself fortunate and keep it moving.

Perhaps you feel a little insecure that once you start LS that people will think you benefitted from AA and not becuase of your merit, and this post is a result of the underlying insecurities. I don't know, I never was good at playing Dr. Phil. lol"

I'm not sure how we deviated to this topic (which is incidentally about my character).In any case, I never assumed that there were no problems, obstacles, or barriers for the rest of African Americans. That's certainly not true. However, we must have an honest discussion on whether these "obstacles" are severe enough to deter blacks from becoming lawyers. More importantly, we must discuss whether these "obstacles" are detrimental to the point where AA is justified (like the 60s). That is why I propounded these questions.

It would be preposterous to assert that AA is wrong in all cases. However, we must access whether current AA programs are consistent with the actions of today's society. I suppose that they are not. Hence the title of the thread.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: 1LCorvo on March 20, 2007, 05:04:45 PM
::yawns::


  hahaha there's nothing like a crappy ending
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: OperaAttorney on August 13, 2007, 08:12:18 PM
1LCorvo is a flippant dolt!!


My reasoning ability increased greatly with each Philosophy class I took, but this brutha obviously experienced the converse.

WHAT HAPPENED TO COMMON SENSE?

I will not engage him in conversation like you all have so graciously done. The daft brutha AIN'T worth it!
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: Pop Up Video on August 13, 2007, 08:29:48 PM
1LCorvo is a flippant dolt!!


My reasoning ability increased greatly with each Philosophy class I took, but this brutha obviously experienced the converse.

WHAT HAPPENED TO COMMON SENSE?

I will not engage him in conversation like you all have so graciously done. The daft brutha AIN'T worth it!

You're the first person to reply to this thread since March.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: OperaAttorney on August 13, 2007, 08:40:17 PM
I know.

I just had to throw in my 1 cent.

And, for the record, I believe AA is a legitimate AND necessary institution.

Now I've gotta study so I can matriculate at NYU Law in '09 (Well, I hope I do  ;)).
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: OperaAttorney on August 29, 2007, 12:33:54 AM
I know.

I just had to throw in my 1 cent.

And, for the record, I believe AA is a legitimate AND necessary institution.

Now I've gotta study so I can matriculate at NYU Law in '09 (Well, I hope I do  ;)).

No.


3.  Do you think the fact you're applying soon may affect your perceptions of what's "legitimate and necessary?"

Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: OperaAttorney on August 29, 2007, 01:07:31 AM
I know.

I just had to throw in my 1 cent.

And, for the record, I believe AA is a legitimate AND necessary institution.

Now I've gotta study so I can matriculate at NYU Law in '09 (Well, I hope I do  ;)).

No.


3.  Do you think the fact you're applying soon may affect your perceptions of what's "legitimate and necessary?"



Fair enough -- maybe only whites are motivated by self-interest.

Not even close. There are millions of underrepresented minorities behind me. They need it, too.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: OperaAttorney on August 29, 2007, 01:10:10 AM
1LCorvo is a flippant dolt!!


My reasoning ability increased greatly with each Philosophy class I took, but this brutha obviously experienced the converse.

WHAT HAPPENED TO COMMON SENSE?

I will not engage him in conversation like you all have so graciously done. The daft brutha AIN'T worth it!


1.  If you speak properly, you'll be more pursuasive.

2.  I don't blame you for not arguing with him -- he's clearly sharper than you.



LAUGH OUT LOUD!!!!! Especially at # 1.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: rempli2 on August 30, 2007, 10:05:34 PM
I am not an Upper-Middle Class African American and I came from an impoverished community myself so I will cannot comment on your question about how Middle Class African Americans might feel.  .

I am an upper middle class black woman.

My parents were in the corps diplomatique and I had the privilege of living in a number of cosmopolitan areas of the world.  I certainly never experienced the ghetto, and grew up with almost exclusively white friends.  I graduated with no debt.

Do I feel that I was disadvantaged?  Probably not.  But it is a difficult thing to say, because my upbringing was somewhat unorthodox.  I went to a lot of international schools, where nobody really stuck out.  I felt most awkward at college where the three black girls across the hall pounced into my room the first day and thought we had a bond.  At the same time, I have dated mostly black men.

Will I benefit from AA in this cycle?  Sure.  My numbers are good enough to get into T14 regardless....but the URM status may get me HYS as a nice bonus.  Do I feel guilty about that?  Not really and I'm not sure whether I should. 
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: OperaAttorney on August 31, 2007, 03:15:54 AM
I am not an Upper-Middle Class African American and I came from an impoverished community myself so I will cannot comment on your question about how Middle Class African Americans might feel.  .

I am an upper middle class black woman.

My parents were in the corps diplomatique and I had the privilege of living in a number of cosmopolitan areas of the world.  I certainly never experienced the ghetto, and grew up with almost exclusively white friends.  I graduated with no debt.

Do I feel that I was disadvantaged?  Probably not.  But it is a difficult thing to say, because my upbringing was somewhat unorthodox.  I went to a lot of international schools, where nobody really stuck out.  I felt most awkward at college where the three black girls across the hall pounced into my room the first day and thought we had a bond.  At the same time, I have dated mostly black men.

Will I benefit from AA in this cycle?  Sure.  My numbers are good enough to get into T14 regardless....but the URM status may get me HYS as a nice bonus.  Do I feel guilty about that?  Not really and I'm not sure whether I should. 


I don't think you should feel guilty, and it appears that you'll be perfectly capable of thriving at HYS, which is what really matters anyway. 

However, I would simply say that it would raise some problematic moral/ethical issues if you were preferred over a significantly less advantaged white/asian who achieved even better numbers despite that disadvantage.

Hey Lindbergh,

I think you should become the Dean of Admissions at Yale after law school.  Or how about Harvard? Stanford?  UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN? :)

That way, you can reject all the unqualified URM applicants--let's not forget how much privilege URMs enjoy--and dole out acceptances to as many poor, disadvantaged white/asian students as you wish.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: dashrashi on August 31, 2007, 05:18:30 AM
Bet you Michael Jordan got pulled over the first time he drove his fancy new car. I'm sure the officer was apologetic once he realized, but...
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: dashrashi on August 31, 2007, 06:06:26 AM
Your presumption is unwarranted. Saved ticket money vs. constantly being thought a criminal by the authority figures in society based on the color of your skin. Certainly not an obvious choice.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: lollypotter on August 31, 2007, 09:23:52 AM
This thread is so bizarre...

As a Hume lover, I think the OP is seriously misunderstanding his work (and comes off like one of those not-too-clever kids using big words he doesn't understand).

JSIA

 

Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: Miss P on August 31, 2007, 10:29:55 AM
it appears that you'll be perfectly capable of thriving at [your law school], which is what really matters anyway.

On this, we agree.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: t... on August 31, 2007, 01:41:50 PM
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=721722 (http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=721722)

Read that. Though it's not a study about affirmative action or specific instances of racism, it's an interesting survey of student impressions at law school. I think it might well explain what different groups of people feel about the experience of law school.

Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: t... on August 31, 2007, 02:29:45 PM
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=721722 (http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=721722)

Read that. Though it's not a study about affirmative action or specific instances of racism, it's an interesting survey of student impressions at law school. I think it might well explain what different groups of people feel about the experience of law school.



Appears to note that minorities and women are less comfortable in law school, without acknowledging the role preferential admissions likely plays in this.  Their solution:  more preferences, and less rigorous academics. 

Read the article, then comment.

Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: Miss P on August 31, 2007, 02:30:50 PM
less rigorous academics. 

I will generally stay on the sidelines for this one, but I can't help but note the twist you put on people's demands for additional academic support resources.  It has nothing to do with rigor.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: dashrashi on August 31, 2007, 03:17:27 PM
Your presumption is unwarranted. Saved ticket money vs. constantly being thought a criminal by the authority figures in society based on the color of your skin. Certainly not an obvious choice.


Your presumption is unwarranted.  On what do you base the belief that MJ will constantly be thought a criminal by authority figures based on the color of his skin?  1)  His windows will probably be tinted, as noted.  2.  Actually, he'll probably have a driver.  3)  He's basically instantly recognizable. 

Even if some cops are more suspicious of blacks, that will generally decline based on the dress of the individual, the type of car he drives, etc.  And regardless of any suspicion accorded someone like MJ, it's unclear how that could affect his academic achievement. 


Hey dummy. No particular reason to think that his windows will be tinted; illegal in many states. He is not necessarily instantly recognizable. Perhaps the cop is very young/foreign/etc etc etc? And presumably MJ wants to drive his own fancy car and not have his driver do it--that's why he got the convertible in the first place. AND the po pull black people over just as often when they're in nice cars--there's a happy little presumption that since black folk can't afford nice cars, they probably stole it. And being systematically oppressed by authority figures in society affects absolutely everything in your life--being pulled over is symptomatic of a larger issue, A, and B is that being discriminated against and hated counts as adversity last time I checked. People who overcome adversity make better people, and add diversity to the class.
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: dashrashi on August 31, 2007, 04:00:43 PM
1. for example: your teachers have biases from living in a racist and oppressive system, and think you're dumb, and therefore do not push you to achieve as they do other students. I am sure there are many many many other ways in which this could play out.

2. Did I say that MJ has it worse than all whites? (Hint: no.) Did I say that MJ doesn't have it better than most whites? (Hint: no again.)

3. People who aren't visible URMs can still face the same kind of discrimination that their visibly-URM counterparts face, e.g. once someone finds out that they are of that group.

This stuff is not that hard. No one is saying that all URMS are worse off than all non-URMs. What i think most proponents of race-based AA are saying is that pretty much all URMs, regardless of SES, face adversity on the basis of their race, and that that should be a consideration. No one is saying anything about poor white people, or, if they are, they're almost certainly saying that poor white folk should get a leg up too: SES diversity is also good for a class. I don't see why you can't have both programs in effect.

Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: Viv212 on September 02, 2007, 03:14:52 PM
Middle class blacks benefit from AA?  I had no idea.  Why do middle class blacks need AA?  Doesn't being middle class mean you have access to an adequate education?  Will that mean I have to go to school with people who are intellectually my inferior?  I like that idea.  It makes me look better.  If you're black and headed to Harvard next year, don't worry, I'll be there to help you with the big words...I'
Title: Re: Middle Class Blacks Do Not Need AA
Post by: dashrashi on September 02, 2007, 06:22:15 PM
gothefuckaway.