Law School Discussion

Specific Groups => Minority and Non-Traditional Law Students => Topic started by: deltaAoverT on February 16, 2007, 08:17:53 AM

Title: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: deltaAoverT on February 16, 2007, 08:17:53 AM
Hi all-

Last year I came across the following factiod when researching minority performance on standardized tests:

"…for high school seniors across the country in 2005, there were 864 African-Americans and 2,033 Latinos who earned a composite score of 29 or above on the ACT, while 66,708 white seniors did."

Does anyone know where I could locate similar statistics for the LSAT?  The project is over, it's more out of personal interest now.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Ulfrekr on February 16, 2007, 09:43:42 AM
Delta, did you find what you were looking for? I'd be interested in that info.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: A. on February 16, 2007, 10:32:17 AM
There are also lots of interesting studies here:

http://www.lsacnet.org/Research/TOC-research-reports2.htm
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: TurboGirl on February 19, 2007, 05:11:25 PM
Hi all-

Last year I came across the following factiod when researching minority performance on standardized tests:

"…for high school seniors across the country in 2005, there were 864 African-Americans and 2,033 Latinos who earned a composite score of 29 or above on the ACT, while 66,708 white seniors did."

Does anyone know where I could locate similar statistics for the LSAT?  The project is over, it's more out of personal interest now.

A more accurate statistic would show what overall percentage of African Americans and what percentage of whites made these scores.

Even if ALL black seniors in the study scored 29 or higher the number would probably still be smaller.

African Americans only make up 12% of the American population.

 Fewer of these blacks are African American. Did you mean just African American or all blacks?
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: TurboGirl on February 20, 2007, 05:18:33 PM
While I do agree that rates are important, I feel that the fact that the numbers are so low bear more weight.  Say the ACT has LSAT like status and is the only test administered for college.  Each of the top ten schools has a 25% score of 29 and approximately 100 Black students in its 1st year class.  Regardless of the rate (since black applicants and matrics are already underrepresented), you've got an issue of more spaces than "qualified" applicants.  I personally think that the standardized test, while useful, does not tell the whole story.  I also think that as a race, it is less likely for blacks to use test prep services, because they are either unaware of the services (didn't know what an SAT tutor was in high school), don't have financial resources, or have priorities (financial and otherwise) placed elsewhere.  Notice I didn't say misplaced.

And for purposes of admissions, black=African American.  Origin/heritage doesn't matter.

I'm not disagreeing that the numbers for blacks are lower, but without a percentage rate the gap can be skewed to look much larger than it is.

If 100 people take a test, and the results show 50 whites make A's while only 3 blacks make A's it would seem to be a huger gap if people didn't realize that there were only 12 blacks to begin with....

To really be accurate, you would have to say that 25% of black students made A's or the results are going to be screwed since there are fewer black students taking the test than white students..

Yes African-American's are blacks, but not all blacks are African-American. When reporting statistics it is important to know whether the study was just about African American's or about all blacks. If the study were about all blacks the number of 170+ scorers would most likely be higher than if the study were just about African-American blacks which could lead people who don't read as carefully to making false assumptions about blacks as a whole rather than a subset of the black community.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Catherine Morland on February 20, 2007, 10:23:59 PM
While I do agree that rates are important, I feel that the fact that the numbers are so low bear more weight.  Say the ACT has LSAT like status and is the only test administered for college.  Each of the top ten schools has a 25% score of 29 and approximately 100 Black students in its 1st year class.  Regardless of the rate (since black applicants and matrics are already underrepresented), you've got an issue of more spaces than "qualified" applicants.  I personally think that the standardized test, while useful, does not tell the whole story.  I also think that as a race, it is less likely for blacks to use test prep services, because they are either unaware of the services (didn't know what an SAT tutor was in high school), don't have financial resources, or have priorities (financial and otherwise) placed elsewhere.  Notice I didn't say misplaced.

And for purposes of admissions, black=African American.  Origin/heritage doesn't matter.

I'm not disagreeing that the numbers for blacks are lower, but without a percentage rate the gap can be skewed to look much larger than it is.

If 100 people take a test, and the results show 50 whites make A's while only 3 blacks make A's it would seem to be a huger gap if people didn't realize that there were only 12 blacks to begin with....

To really be accurate, you would have to say that 25% of black students made A's or the results are going to be screwed since there are fewer black students taking the test than white students..

Yes African-American's are blacks, but not all blacks are African-American. When reporting statistics it is important to know whether the study was just about African American's or about all blacks. If the study were about all blacks the number of 170+ scorers would most likely be higher than if the study were just about African-American blacks which could lead people who don't read as carefully to making false assumptions about blacks as a whole rather than a subset of the black community.

Are you comfortable making that distinction? The last time I self-identified, I don't recall being asked to clarify whether I was black or African-American. The statistics of170+ scorers comes from the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education, which uses the terms interchangeably.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: TurboGirl on February 20, 2007, 10:38:00 PM
While I do agree that rates are important, I feel that the fact that the numbers are so low bear more weight.  Say the ACT has LSAT like status and is the only test administered for college.  Each of the top ten schools has a 25% score of 29 and approximately 100 Black students in its 1st year class.  Regardless of the rate (since black applicants and matrics are already underrepresented), you've got an issue of more spaces than "qualified" applicants.  I personally think that the standardized test, while useful, does not tell the whole story.  I also think that as a race, it is less likely for blacks to use test prep services, because they are either unaware of the services (didn't know what an SAT tutor was in high school), don't have financial resources, or have priorities (financial and otherwise) placed elsewhere.  Notice I didn't say misplaced.

And for purposes of admissions, black=African American.  Origin/heritage doesn't matter.

I'm not disagreeing that the numbers for blacks are lower, but without a percentage rate the gap can be skewed to look much larger than it is.

If 100 people take a test, and the results show 50 whites make A's while only 3 blacks make A's it would seem to be a huger gap if people didn't realize that there were only 12 blacks to begin with....

To really be accurate, you would have to say that 25% of black students made A's or the results are going to be screwed since there are fewer black students taking the test than white students..

Yes African-American's are blacks, but not all blacks are African-American. When reporting statistics it is important to know whether the study was just about African American's or about all blacks. If the study were about all blacks the number of 170+ scorers would most likely be higher than if the study were just about African-American blacks which could lead people who don't read as carefully to making false assumptions about blacks as a whole rather than a subset of the black community.

Are you comfortable making that distinction? The last time I self-identified, I don't recall being asked to clarify whether I was black or African-American. The statistics of170+ scorers comes from the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education, which uses the terms interchangeably.

I don't have a problem making that distinction if asked. I was just wondering whether the survey said black or African American. Mainly because in statistics people make conclusions based on assumptions or because of overlooking friends. I have friends of West-Indian background here in the states who are black but certainly not African American and wouldn't appreciate being called so. The term black can be used for anyone, but African-American can't be used to describe all blacks.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: TurboGirl on February 20, 2007, 11:29:42 PM
Quote
The term black can be used for anyone, but African-American can't be used to describe all blacks.
I feel as though the Black vs. African-American vs. African Heritage vs. Regular Black vs. Caribbean argument could spawn a thread of its own.  Although you may disagree with semantics, for test reporting purposes, and in the eyes of most people looking at statistics, black and African-American are interchangeable.   

I realize that may be the case, but wanted to make sure that in this specific study there was no differentiation. It doesn't hurt to clarify.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: pikey on February 21, 2007, 06:48:34 PM
Quote
The term black can be used for anyone, but African-American can't be used to describe all blacks.
I feel as though the Black vs. African-American vs. African Heritage vs. Regular Black vs. Caribbean argument could spawn a thread of its own.  Although you may disagree with semantics, for test reporting purposes, and in the eyes of most people looking at statistics, black and African-American are interchangeable.    


Titcr.  I'm definitely not African-American (since I'm not American) but if that was the only option (ie just AA, not AA/Black), I would check that.  I think most people I know who are Black but not American do the same.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: butterz on February 23, 2007, 06:37:47 AM
Quote
The term black can be used for anyone, but African-American can't be used to describe all blacks.
I feel as though the Black vs. African-American vs. African Heritage vs. Regular Black vs. Caribbean argument could spawn a thread of its own.  Although you may disagree with semantics, for test reporting purposes, and in the eyes of most people looking at statistics, black and African-American are interchangeable.    


Titcr.  I'm definitely not African-American (since I'm not American) but if that was the only option (ie just AA, not AA/Black), I would check that.  I think most people I know who are Black but not American do the same.

I disagree with doing that...it's inaccurate.  Equivalent to a Spaniard checking off hispanic because it's convenient and will benefit them while they do not personally identify with the Hispanic-American experience.  For diversity purposes, check International or Other and include a comment...anything else is unfair, misleading and goes against the spirit of legislation put in place to assist historically disadvantaged AMERICAN people.  But that's a completely different thread.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: pikey on February 23, 2007, 12:19:50 PM
Quote
The term black can be used for anyone, but African-American can't be used to describe all blacks.
I feel as though the Black vs. African-American vs. African Heritage vs. Regular Black vs. Caribbean argument could spawn a thread of its own.  Although you may disagree with semantics, for test reporting purposes, and in the eyes of most people looking at statistics, black and African-American are interchangeable.    


Titcr.  I'm definitely not African-American (since I'm not American) but if that was the only option (ie just AA, not AA/Black), I would check that.  I think most people I know who are Black but not American do the same.

I disagree with doing that...it's inaccurate.  Equivalent to a Spaniard checking off hispanic because it's convenient and will benefit them while they do not personally identify with the Hispanic-American experience.  For diversity purposes, check International or Other and include a comment...anything else is unfair, misleading and goes against the spirit of legislation put in place to assist historically disadvantaged AMERICAN people.  But that's a completely different thread.

Umm, who the hell are you to tell me what I should check?  The Italicised is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.  If you want to make a relevant comparison, its equivalent to a Cuban or a Mexican checking the box, even though they do not have the "Hispanic-American" experience.  Oh, wait, they do.  Dumbass.

The term African American is used as a racial category, not a national one.  I agree that statistical forms should use Black or even Black/African American to be more correct, but if they don't it is completely stupid for someone with 2 Black parents and 4 Black grandparents to check Other.  I'm not Other, I'm Black.  If they happen to put African-American, then that's what I will always check.  Deal with it.  There is no international category because they're not trying to record nationality.  They're trying to record 'race' (whatever that means) and for that I can only be Black, African American, Negro or Colored.  Whatever you call it, that's what I am.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Statistic on February 23, 2007, 12:24:04 PM
only a black person can be so gangsta' with a post.  :P
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: pikey on February 23, 2007, 12:55:26 PM
only a black person can be so gangsta' with a post.  :P

I just don't like it when people try and tell me what to do when their advice is ignant.  That's all.  0:)
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Stand under my Umbrella ella ella, aye!! on February 23, 2007, 01:26:29 PM
I think there should be a foreign born black catagory, but they don't have one.  I think it has something to do with there being so few american born blacks having numbers that qualify them for ls.  I think schools would rather just count any black person as afro am so as to increase their chances of getting blacks over their 25th, median, and 75th on the LSAT, and help their numbers as well as be able to report they are 10% afro am.  I feel a certain way about this, but whatever; I'm not on an adcom and I seriously doubt adcoms care.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Denny Crane on February 23, 2007, 02:46:00 PM
Quote
The term black can be used for anyone, but African-American can't be used to describe all blacks.
I feel as though the Black vs. African-American vs. African Heritage vs. Regular Black vs. Caribbean argument could spawn a thread of its own.  Although you may disagree with semantics, for test reporting purposes, and in the eyes of most people looking at statistics, black and African-American are interchangeable.    


Titcr.  I'm definitely not African-American (since I'm not American) but if that was the only option (ie just AA, not AA/Black), I would check that.  I think most people I know who are Black but not American do the same.

I disagree with doing that...it's inaccurate.  Equivalent to a Spaniard checking off hispanic because it's convenient and will benefit them while they do not personally identify with the Hispanic-American experience.  For diversity purposes, check International or Other and include a comment...anything else is unfair, misleading and goes against the spirit of legislation put in place to assist historically disadvantaged AMERICAN people.  But that's a completely different thread.

Umm, who the hell are you to tell me what I should check?  The Italicised is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.  If you want to make a relevant comparison, its equivalent to a Cuban or a Mexican checking the box, even though they do not have the "Hispanic-American" experience.  Oh, wait, they do.  Dumbass.

The term African American is used as a racial category, not a national one.  I agree that statistical forms should use Black or even Black/African American to be more correct, but if they don't it is completely stupid for someone with 2 Black parents and 4 Black grandparents to check Other.  I'm not Other, I'm Black.  If they happen to put African-American, then that's what I will always check.  Deal with it.  There is no international category because they're not trying to record nationality.  They're trying to record 'race' (whatever that means) and for that I can only be Black, African American, Negro or Colored.  Whatever you call it, that's what I am.

Moni, I agree with you about checking African American in the absence of a "black" option, but it's not fair to say that Mexicans and Cubans have had the same experiences as Mexican-Americans or Cuban-Americans.  Because I agree with you that the options are meant to record racial information, not national information, that ultimately none of this matters, but clearly people of different national origins are going to have different experiences, especially when some are racial minorities in their country and others are racial majorities in theirs. 
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: 1654134681665465 on February 23, 2007, 03:20:42 PM
How about we make it simple for everyone: Black, White, Asian, Pacific Islander, Indian, American Indian (or Native American Indian-they can't make up their mind what they want to be called either), Aboriginal, Hispanic/Latino (again, Mexicans want to be called Mexicans and Mexican Americans can't agree on what to be called).  I think that this whole argument is stupid.  Why don't white people argue about whether they are of English, French, German, Polish, Italian, Irish, Scottish, Welsh, Dutch, Swiss (French OR German speaking), etc.  And what about people who are mixed? When I lived in Newark people I met people who were part Asian, Black, and Hispanic?  Who do they identify with?  Black is black, white is white.  If you want to differentiate between your heritage, that is for you and your family.  RACE does not include heritage. 
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: pikey on February 24, 2007, 06:25:05 PM
Quote
The term black can be used for anyone, but African-American can't be used to describe all blacks.
I feel as though the Black vs. African-American vs. African Heritage vs. Regular Black vs. Caribbean argument could spawn a thread of its own.  Although you may disagree with semantics, for test reporting purposes, and in the eyes of most people looking at statistics, black and African-American are interchangeable.    


Titcr.  I'm definitely not African-American (since I'm not American) but if that was the only option (ie just AA, not AA/Black), I would check that.  I think most people I know who are Black but not American do the same.

I disagree with doing that...it's inaccurate.  Equivalent to a Spaniard checking off hispanic because it's convenient and will benefit them while they do not personally identify with the Hispanic-American experience.  For diversity purposes, check International or Other and include a comment...anything else is unfair, misleading and goes against the spirit of legislation put in place to assist historically disadvantaged AMERICAN people.  But that's a completely different thread.

Umm, who the hell are you to tell me what I should check?  The Italicised is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.  If you want to make a relevant comparison, its equivalent to a Cuban or a Mexican checking the box, even though they do not have the "Hispanic-American" experience.  Oh, wait, they do.  Dumbass.

The term African American is used as a racial category, not a national one.  I agree that statistical forms should use Black or even Black/African American to be more correct, but if they don't it is completely stupid for someone with 2 Black parents and 4 Black grandparents to check Other.  I'm not Other, I'm Black.  If they happen to put African-American, then that's what I will always check.  Deal with it.  There is no international category because they're not trying to record nationality.  They're trying to record 'race' (whatever that means) and for that I can only be Black, African American, Negro or Colored.  Whatever you call it, that's what I am.

Moni, I agree with you about checking African American in the absence of a "black" option, but it's not fair to say that Mexicans and Cubans have had the same experiences as Mexican-Americans or Cuban-Americans.  Because I agree with you that the options are meant to record racial information, not national information, that ultimately none of this matters, but clearly people of different national origins are going to have different experiences, especially when some are racial minorities in their country and others are racial majorities in theirs. 

I never said that Mexicans or Cubans have the same experiences as Mexican-Americans et al.  I just pointed out that for statistical purposes, it really doesn't matter if you were born in the US, Europe or Africa.  If you're 'racially' Black, you're Black or African American.  You're Asian regardless or Hispanic regardless.  The intent is not to determine your nationial origin.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Denny Crane on February 24, 2007, 06:29:52 PM
Quote
The term black can be used for anyone, but African-American can't be used to describe all blacks.
I feel as though the Black vs. African-American vs. African Heritage vs. Regular Black vs. Caribbean argument could spawn a thread of its own.  Although you may disagree with semantics, for test reporting purposes, and in the eyes of most people looking at statistics, black and African-American are interchangeable.    


Titcr.  I'm definitely not African-American (since I'm not American) but if that was the only option (ie just AA, not AA/Black), I would check that.  I think most people I know who are Black but not American do the same.

I disagree with doing that...it's inaccurate.  Equivalent to a Spaniard checking off hispanic because it's convenient and will benefit them while they do not personally identify with the Hispanic-American experience.  For diversity purposes, check International or Other and include a comment...anything else is unfair, misleading and goes against the spirit of legislation put in place to assist historically disadvantaged AMERICAN people.  But that's a completely different thread.

Umm, who the hell are you to tell me what I should check?  The Italicised is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.  If you want to make a relevant comparison, its equivalent to a Cuban or a Mexican checking the box, even though they do not have the "Hispanic-American" experience.  Oh, wait, they do.  Dumbass.

I was responding to the bolded part of your quote.  I probably misread it, though it did seem to me that you were saying that Cubans and Mexicans have had the same experiences as Hispanic-Americans, which I felt was wrong.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: pikey on February 24, 2007, 06:33:45 PM
Quote
The term black can be used for anyone, but African-American can't be used to describe all blacks.
I feel as though the Black vs. African-American vs. African Heritage vs. Regular Black vs. Caribbean argument could spawn a thread of its own.  Although you may disagree with semantics, for test reporting purposes, and in the eyes of most people looking at statistics, black and African-American are interchangeable.    


Titcr.  I'm definitely not African-American (since I'm not American) but if that was the only option (ie just AA, not AA/Black), I would check that.  I think most people I know who are Black but not American do the same.

I disagree with doing that...it's inaccurate.  Equivalent to a Spaniard checking off hispanic because it's convenient and will benefit them while they do not personally identify with the Hispanic-American experience.  For diversity purposes, check International or Other and include a comment...anything else is unfair, misleading and goes against the spirit of legislation put in place to assist historically disadvantaged AMERICAN people.  But that's a completely different thread.

Umm, who the hell are you to tell me what I should check?  The Italicised is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.  If you want to make a relevant comparison, its equivalent to a Cuban or a Mexican checking the box, even though they do not have the "Hispanic-American" experience.  Oh, wait, they do.  Dumbass.

I was responding to the bolded part of your quote.  I probably misread it, though it did seem to me that you were saying that Cubans and Mexicans have had the same experiences as Hispanic-Americans, which I felt was wrong.

No, I was just saying that the "Hispanic" box is for all Hispanics, not just those in the US.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: butterz on February 26, 2007, 02:02:06 PM
Quote
The term black can be used for anyone, but African-American can't be used to describe all blacks.
I feel as though the Black vs. African-American vs. African Heritage vs. Regular Black vs. Caribbean argument could spawn a thread of its own.  Although you may disagree with semantics, for test reporting purposes, and in the eyes of most people looking at statistics, black and African-American are interchangeable.    


Titcr.  I'm definitely not African-American (since I'm not American) but if that was the only option (ie just AA, not AA/Black), I would check that.  I think most people I know who are Black but not American do the same.

I disagree with doing that...it's inaccurate.  Equivalent to a Spaniard checking off hispanic because it's convenient and will benefit them while they do not personally identify with the Hispanic-American experience.  For diversity purposes, check International or Other and include a comment...anything else is unfair, misleading and goes against the spirit of legislation put in place to assist historically disadvantaged AMERICAN people.  But that's a completely different thread.

Umm, who the hell are you to tell me what I should check?  The Italicised is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.  If you want to make a relevant comparison, its equivalent to a Cuban or a Mexican checking the box, even though they do not have the "Hispanic-American" experience.  Oh, wait, they do.  Dumbass.

The term African American is used as a racial category, not a national one.  I agree that statistical forms should use Black or even Black/African American to be more correct, but if they don't it is completely stupid for someone with 2 Black parents and 4 Black grandparents to check Other.  I'm not Other, I'm Black.  If they happen to put African-American, then that's what I will always check.  Deal with it.  There is no international category because they're not trying to record nationality.  They're trying to record 'race' (whatever that means) and for that I can only be Black, African American, Negro or Colored.  Whatever you call it, that's what I am.

;D ;D ;D ;D I MUST HAVE STRUCK A NERVE...No one is telling you what to do, I just stated that as a black person born and bred in this country whose parent suffered through Jim Crow and segregated schools that I disagree with your actions.  I happen to disagree with your actions because personally I do not think that they are in the spirit of the purpose of affirmative action legislation, which I think is to assist disadvantaged Black-Americans.  Granted this is just my personal opinion, I'm no adcom, and the adcom probably doesn't really care either, because to them a spade is a spade. 

To be quite frank, I think that you are taking it so personally because you are not disadvantaged and know little with regard to the Black-American experience, yet you are still taking advantage of the system as if you have suffered by being black.  And if you ceased to defend your actions then that would be an admission of guilt.  But maybe you can relate to the Black-American, because you've lived in the US for most of your life and maybe you have been subjected to its institutionalized racial disparities.  Maybe this is the case.  However based on your reaction, I have an exceedingly strong feeling that you have not been "privy" to the Black-American experience, how could you be you're not a Black-American.  You don't even know what you don't know about the Black-American experience, you're looking out for number one and defending your actions because that's the "natural" thing to do.  I say natural because people generally take actions based upon their own self-interest.

You speak of not denying your race, but are you not denying your country when you put African-American? African-American is defined as " a member of an ethnic group in the United States whose ancestors, usually in predominant part, were indigenous to Sub-Saharan Africa."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American 

You say that the intent is to survey race and not nationality, whatever helps you sleep at night.  And last but not least, I love it when I get people so mad that they call me out of my name, the sheer eloquence is dumbfounding   :-*
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: pikey on February 26, 2007, 02:58:47 PM
Quote
The term black can be used for anyone, but African-American can't be used to describe all blacks.
I feel as though the Black vs. African-American vs. African Heritage vs. Regular Black vs. Caribbean argument could spawn a thread of its own.  Although you may disagree with semantics, for test reporting purposes, and in the eyes of most people looking at statistics, black and African-American are interchangeable.    


Titcr.  I'm definitely not African-American (since I'm not American) but if that was the only option (ie just AA, not AA/Black), I would check that.  I think most people I know who are Black but not American do the same.

I disagree with doing that...it's inaccurate.  Equivalent to a Spaniard checking off hispanic because it's convenient and will benefit them while they do not personally identify with the Hispanic-American experience.  For diversity purposes, check International or Other and include a comment...anything else is unfair, misleading and goes against the spirit of legislation put in place to assist historically disadvantaged AMERICAN people.  But that's a completely different thread.

Umm, who the hell are you to tell me what I should check?  The Italicised is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.  If you want to make a relevant comparison, its equivalent to a Cuban or a Mexican checking the box, even though they do not have the "Hispanic-American" experience.  Oh, wait, they do.  Dumbass.

The term African American is used as a racial category, not a national one.  I agree that statistical forms should use Black or even Black/African American to be more correct, but if they don't it is completely stupid for someone with 2 Black parents and 4 Black grandparents to check Other.  I'm not Other, I'm Black.  If they happen to put African-American, then that's what I will always check.  Deal with it.  There is no international category because they're not trying to record nationality.  They're trying to record 'race' (whatever that means) and for that I can only be Black, African American, Negro or Colored.  Whatever you call it, that's what I am.

;D ;D ;D ;D I MUST HAVE STRUCK A NERVE...No one is telling you what to do, I just stated that as a black person born and bred in this country whose parent suffered through Jim Crow and segregated schools that I disagree with your actions.  I happen to disagree with your actions because personally I do not think that they are in the spirit of the purpose of affirmative action legislation, which I think is to assist disadvantaged Black-Americans.  Granted this is just my personal opinion, I'm no adcom, and the adcom probably doesn't really care either, because to them a spade is a spade. 

To be quite frank, I think that you are taking it so personally because you are not disadvantaged and know little with regard to the Black-American experience, yet you are still taking advantage of the system as if you have suffered by being black.  And if you ceased to defend your actions then that would be an admission of guilt.  But maybe you can relate to the Black-American, because you've lived in the US for most of your life and maybe you have been subjected to its institutionalized racial disparities.  Maybe this is the case.  However based on your reaction, I have an exceedingly strong feeling that you have not been "privy" to the Black-American experience, how could you be you're not a Black-American.  You don't even know what you don't know about the Black-American experience, you're looking out for number one and defending your actions because that's the "natural" thing to do.  I say natural because people generally take actions based upon their own self-interest.

You speak of not denying your race, but are you not denying your country when you put African-American? African-American is defined as " a member of an ethnic group in the United States whose ancestors, usually in predominant part, were indigenous to Sub-Saharan Africa."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American 

You say that the intent is to survey race and not nationality, whatever helps you sleep at night.  And last but not least, I love it when I get people so mad that they call me out of my name, the sheer eloquence is dumbfounding   :-*


Aww butterz.  Your ignorance is showing again.  You obviously know nothing about me, so why are you trying to tell me about my history, which also includes parents who suffered from discrimination and segregated schools.  You don't know anything about my own personal experiences, yet you continue to make stupid assumptions relating to my past and my experiences.  smh.  Do you somehow own the black experience?  Did someone appoint you as the gatekeeper of blackness? Because that's exactly how you come across and quite frankly its a little annoying.

In addressing other assumptions (which still make you look like an ass), I never deny my country.  On every single application I write that I am Bermudian and my statements also mention my heritage.  Nice try. 

Maybe we just aren't filling out the same application forms, but when my applications call for me to identify the racial or ethnic group that I most identify with, that is Black or African American.  When they ask about my nationality, that is Bermudian.  That is the reality.  I'm sorry it hurts your feelings, but that's the way it is.  Cry me a river.

As for the purpose of AA, that's the most laughable argument to bring.  Law schools themselves can't agree on the purpose of AA, but somehow you are the definitive source!  Is it to redress historical wrongs?  Is it to increase diversity? Is it to increase represesentation in the legal profession?  Ask three different people and you're liable to get three different answers, so I'll feel free to disregard yours.

In the future, personal attacks aren't the way to go if you want to disagree with someone.  If you had just said "I disagree, because I think African American is a category that should be reserved for African Americans" then that's fine; you're stating your opinion.  But to tell me that I am wrong and dishonest and telling me what to check based on your personal opinion isn't on.  Be prepared to be very upset throughout your life, because there are lots of people like me, black immigrants and children of immigrants, who are doing big things.  There are a number of them on this board and you will encounter even more of them in law school and beyond.  Try not to let it upset you too much, because we certainly won't.  ::)

At the end of the day, no one is 'entitled' to AA.  Law schools choose students that they like, based on the whole person.  I presented myself fairly and accurately. I felt that I am an interesting applicant because of who I am, which includes being a Black Bermudian, and my applications reflected this.  Obviously the schools that I applied to also like who I am.  If you feel that I got some unfair advantage or that I "stole" something from you, then the onus is on you to present yourself as the best applicant possible.  If you feel that you have a unique experience as a Black American, then share that unique experience.  And if you can't then it makes no sense to complain over a message board about me.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: SBToLaw on February 26, 2007, 08:11:50 PM
Everybody dance....now?

*crickets*
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: butterz on February 27, 2007, 06:16:30 AM
Quote
The term black can be used for anyone, but African-American can't be used to describe all blacks.
I feel as though the Black vs. African-American vs. African Heritage vs. Regular Black vs. Caribbean argument could spawn a thread of its own.  Although you may disagree with semantics, for test reporting purposes, and in the eyes of most people looking at statistics, black and African-American are interchangeable.    


Titcr.  I'm definitely not African-American (since I'm not American) but if that was the only option (ie just AA, not AA/Black), I would check that.  I think most people I know who are Black but not American do the same.

I disagree with doing that...it's inaccurate.  Equivalent to a Spaniard checking off hispanic because it's convenient and will benefit them while they do not personally identify with the Hispanic-American experience.  For diversity purposes, check International or Other and include a comment...anything else is unfair, misleading and goes against the spirit of legislation put in place to assist historically disadvantaged AMERICAN people.  But that's a completely different thread.

Umm, who the hell are you to tell me what I should check?  The Italicised is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.  If you want to make a relevant comparison, its equivalent to a Cuban or a Mexican checking the box, even though they do not have the "Hispanic-American" experience.  Oh, wait, they do.  Dumbass.

The term African American is used as a racial category, not a national one.  I agree that statistical forms should use Black or even Black/African American to be more correct, but if they don't it is completely stupid for someone with 2 Black parents and 4 Black grandparents to check Other.  I'm not Other, I'm Black.  If they happen to put African-American, then that's what I will always check.  Deal with it.  There is no international category because they're not trying to record nationality.  They're trying to record 'race' (whatever that means) and for that I can only be Black, African American, Negro or Colored.  Whatever you call it, that's what I am.

;D ;D ;D ;D I MUST HAVE STRUCK A NERVE...No one is telling you what to do, I just stated that as a black person born and bred in this country whose parent suffered through Jim Crow and segregated schools that I disagree with your actions.  I happen to disagree with your actions because personally I do not think that they are in the spirit of the purpose of affirmative action legislation, which I think is to assist disadvantaged Black-Americans.  Granted this is just my personal opinion, I'm no adcom, and the adcom probably doesn't really care either, because to them a spade is a spade. 

To be quite frank, I think that you are taking it so personally because you are not disadvantaged and know little with regard to the Black-American experience, yet you are still taking advantage of the system as if you have suffered by being black.  And if you ceased to defend your actions then that would be an admission of guilt.  But maybe you can relate to the Black-American, because you've lived in the US for most of your life and maybe you have been subjected to its institutionalized racial disparities.  Maybe this is the case.  However based on your reaction, I have an exceedingly strong feeling that you have not been "privy" to the Black-American experience, how could you be you're not a Black-American.  You don't even know what you don't know about the Black-American experience, you're looking out for number one and defending your actions because that's the "natural" thing to do.  I say natural because people generally take actions based upon their own self-interest.

You speak of not denying your race, but are you not denying your country when you put African-American? African-American is defined as " a member of an ethnic group in the United States whose ancestors, usually in predominant part, were indigenous to Sub-Saharan Africa."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American 

You say that the intent is to survey race and not nationality, whatever helps you sleep at night.  And last but not least, I love it when I get people so mad that they call me out of my name, the sheer eloquence is dumbfounding   :-*


Aww butterz.  Your ignorance is showing again. HERE WE GO AGAIN WITH THE PERSONAL ATTACKS You obviously know nothing about me, so why are you trying to tell me about my history, I KNOW THAT ON ANOTHER BOARD YOU SAID THAT YOU WERE RICH which also includes parents who suffered from discrimination and segregated schools.  You don't know anything about my own personal experiences, yet you continue to make stupid assumptions relating to my past and my experiences. NEVER MADE ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE  smh.  Do you somehow own the black experience? NO, AND I NEVER CLAIMED TO   Did someone appoint you as the gatekeeper of blackness? NO, AND YOUR LINE OF QUESTIONING IS IRRELEVANT Because that's exactly how you come across and quite frankly its a little annoying.  OH, HOW I LOVE TO ANNOY YOU AND CONSIDER IT A PRIVILEGE

In addressing other assumptions (which still make you look like an ass), OOH THAT HURTS  ;)I never deny my country.  YOU ONLY CHECK OFF BLACK-AMERICAN WHEN IT'S CONVENIENT...JUST TO MAKE SURE YOU GET IN THE RIGHT PILE  On every single application I write that I am Bermudian and my statements also mention my heritage.  Nice try.  THANK YOU, I TREASURE YOUR COMPLIMENTS  

Maybe we just aren't filling out the same application forms, but when my applications call for me to identify the racial or ethnic group that I most identify with, that is Black or African American.   LAST TIME I CHECKED BERMUDA WAS 54.8% BLACK, I'M SURE YOU CONSTANTLY FEEL MARGINALIZED When they ask about my nationality, that is Bermudian.  That is the reality.  I'm sorry it hurts your feelings, SORRY TO DISAPPOINT, BUT THEIR NOT  but that's the way it is.  Cry me a river. SOUNDS LIKE YOU'RE THE ONE CRYING

As for the purpose of AA, that's the most laughable argument to bring.  Law schools themselves can't agree on the purpose of AA, but somehow you are the definitive source! NEVER CLAIMED TO BE  Is it to redress historical wrongs?  Is it to increase diversity? Is it to increase represesentation in the legal profession?  Ask three different people and you're liable to get three different answers, so I'll feel free to disregard yours.  OBVIOUSLY YOU HAVEN'T, IT APPEARS THAT YOU HAVE PONDERED ON IT QUITE A BIT

In the future, personal attacks aren't the way to go if you want to disagree with someone. SOUNDS LIKE SOMEONE HAS FINALLY LOOKED IN THE MIRROR If you had just said "I disagree, because I think African American is a category that should be reserved for African Americans" then that's fine; you're stating your opinion. ESSENTIALLY THIS IS WHAT I DID, SOMEONE DECIDED TO TAKE IT PERSONALLY But to tell me that I am wrong and dishonest and telling me what to check based on your personal opinion isn't on. SORRY IF I WAS UNCLEAR, I'M NOT JUDGING YOU, I COULD NOT CARE LESS ABOUT YOU I DO NOT KNOW YOU, I'M JUDGING THE ACTIONS OF FOREIGN BORN BLACKS WHO CHECK OFF AMERICAN.    Be prepared to be very upset throughout your life, because there are lots of people like me, black immigrants and children of immigrants, who are doing big things. WHY WOULD THIS UPSET ME??? I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR "BIG THINGS", AS LONG THEY ARE ACQUIRED HONESTLY  There are a number of them on this board and you will encounter even more of them in law school and beyond.  Try not to let it upset you too much, because we certainly won't.  ::) BUT I'M NOT UPSET, YOU ARE


At the end of the day, no one is 'entitled' to AA.  SO IS THAT WHY YOU MAKE SURE YOU CHECK OFF THE BLACK-AMERICAN BOX? Law schools choose students that they like, based on the whole person.  I presented myself fairly and accurately. I felt that I am an interesting applicant because of who I am, which includes being a Black Bermudian, EXACTLY, NOT A BLACK-AMERICAN  and my applications reflected this.  Obviously the schools that I applied to also like who I am.  If you feel that I got some unfair advantage or that I "stole" something from you, YOU DON'T HAVE THE CAPACITY  then the onus is on you to present yourself as the best applicant possible.  If you feel that you have a unique experience as a Black American, then share that unique experience. I DO, AND I HAVE  And if you can't then it makes no sense to complain over a message board about me.
  MY DEAR, DON'T TAKE THINGS SO PERSONALLY, SORRY TO BREAK IT TO YOU BUT YOU'RE NOT THAT IMPORTANT
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: pikey on February 27, 2007, 06:19:21 AM
  NO ONE IS COMPLAINING ABOUT YOU MY DEAR, YOU THINK WAY TOO MUCH OF YOURSELF

Hmm, your posts on this thread contradict you.  ::)
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on February 27, 2007, 06:21:19 AM
Man, Butterz aren't you a non-trad?  If so, are you really trying to have this type of trivial argument with a younger applicant? No bueno.

Furthermore, IIRC most boxes say Black or African-American. MoniLi is clearly black, so she is entitled to check the box.  You have ppl who are wondering whether the fact that their great great great great grandfather was blk makes them entitled to click the box and you are arguing that MoniLi shouldn't?  Ridiculous.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Statistic on February 27, 2007, 06:38:49 AM
Yes, the boxes say Black or African-American. These schools are completely aware of the fact that black people do exist otherwise in the world, and if that mattered to them, they would create another category for non-American Negro, Darky or whatever we are being called at the time. They don't. If you resent blacks that haven't faced American discrimination are getting boosts, I hope you join me in not particularly liking the fact that the top schools are filled with black kids that come from upper-middle class to rich families. I say this as one of those black kids. The *&^% is mad annoying, but hey.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on February 27, 2007, 06:42:59 AM
Yes, the boxes say Black or African-American. These schools are completely aware of the fact that black people do exist otherwise in the world, and if that mattered to them, they would create another category for non-American Negro, Darky or whatever we are being called at the time. They don't. If you resent blacks that haven't faced American discrimination are getting boosts, I hope you join me in not particularly liking the fact that the top schools are filled with black kids that come from upper-middle class to rich families. I say this as one of those black kids. The *&^% is mad annoying, but hey.

every blue moon, you grace BLSD with your wisdom.  Bravo  :-*
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Statistic on February 27, 2007, 06:44:08 AM
die #%@!
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: One Step Ahead on February 27, 2007, 06:49:42 AM
the moon has waned.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on February 27, 2007, 06:50:05 AM
die #%@!


 :(
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Statistic on February 27, 2007, 06:52:41 AM
live #%@!
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on February 27, 2007, 06:53:58 AM
live #%@!

 :)
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: pikey on February 27, 2007, 06:55:14 AM
This last page made me laugh.  Minus the wise words from RBG, of course.

And yes, I put RBG just to irritate you.   :P
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Statistic on February 27, 2007, 06:57:13 AM
 >:(
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: pikey on February 27, 2007, 06:57:55 AM
 :-*
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Stand under my Umbrella ella ella, aye!! on February 27, 2007, 07:28:11 AM
don't applications have several different options for hispanic?  i.e. Mexican American, Cuban, hispanic non white, hispanic white etc etc... Like I said earlier, I think schools lump all blacks (international/domestic) into a pile in order to help their odds of getting high scoring blacks, and be able to report a certain percentage of blacks.  The intent behind it seems a bit disingenuous.  If they reported hispanics the same way, with no regard to nationality, then I would think differently.  However, schools don't.  I think this is problematic because it allows innercity American schools to be further ignored.  If schools were unable to lump Africans, Carribeans etc into the group with African Americans then they would be forced to face the harsh reality that African Americans are not being prepared for higher education.  I mean it's already pretty obvious, but the presence of black faces, and the ability to tout a certain percentage of black/african americans allows them to cover it up a bit. 

but whatever, if I was African or Carribean I would do the same thing.  The option is there for a reason. One would be a fool not to take advantage of it.  It does say African American/Black, after all.  There is an international option, but if a black person identifies more with race in this country than their nation of origin I can't say I blame them.  This country is pretty damned racist. 

I even read an article once about dark and light skinned Cubans who knew each other in cuba and also migrated here.  Eventually race relations were such that they would separate and one would generally befreind whites or lighter peoples, and the other would befreind blacks.  that was one case where race trumps nationality, and even old freindships.  I actually understand both sides of the argument, but I think you are barking up the wrong tree butterz.  I think your issue is with the system of reporting, not with individual applicants.         
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: One Step Ahead on February 27, 2007, 07:34:32 AM
I find the argument "they are taking our spots" as offensive coming from a black person as a white person, but maybe thats just me.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Statistic on February 27, 2007, 07:35:50 AM
 :D
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on February 27, 2007, 07:36:01 AM
I find the argument "they are taking our spots" as offensive coming from a black person as a white person, but maybe thats just me.

not just you
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: pikey on February 27, 2007, 07:37:49 AM
don't applications have several different options for hispanic?  i.e. Mexican American, Cuban, hispanic non white, hispanic white etc etc... Like I said earlier, I think schools lump all blacks (international/domestic) into a pile in order to help their odds of getting high scoring blacks, and be able to report a certain percentage of blacks.  The intent behind it seems a bit disingenuous.  If they reported hispanics the same way, with no regard to nationality, then I would think differently.  However, schools don't.  I think this is problematic because it allows innercity American schools to be further ignored.  If schools were unable to lump Africans, Carribeans etc into the group with African Americans then they would be forced to face the harsh reality that African Americans are not being prepared for higher education.  I mean it's already pretty obvious, but the presence of black faces, and the ability to tout a certain percentage of black/african americans allows them to cover it up a bit. 

but whatever, if I was African or Carribean I would do the same thing.  The option is there for a reason. One would be a fool not to take advantage of it.  It does say African American/Black, after all.  There is an international option, but if a black person identifies more with race in this country than their nation of origin I can't say I blame them.  This country is pretty damned racist. 

I even read an article once about dark and light skinned Cubans who knew each other in cuba and also migrated here.  Eventually race relations were such that they would separate and one would generally befreind whites or lighter peoples, and the other would befreind blacks.  that was one case where race trumps nationality, and even old freindships.  I actually understand both sides of the argument, but I think you are barking up the wrong tree butterz.  I think your issue is with the system of reporting, not with individual applicants.         

Another person who writes before checking the facts.  ::)   There is NOT an international option under racial/ethnic identitity, at least not for any of the 20 or so apps that I filled out (didn't send them all).  The nationality question is completely seperate from your racial background, which is why it is entirely possible to identify with both.

As for Hispanics, it varies by application.  Some just have a Hispanic category, some seperate out Mexicans or Puerto Ricans, but that still has to do with "ethnic" or national background, not current nationality.  They don't distinguish between Mexicans from Mexico and Americans of Mexican heritage.

The racial/ethnic question looks at heritage, in terms of nationality, race, and ethnicity, which is why an Asian from China is treated the same as an Asian from California.  This is across the board.  If an applicant feels that their race/ethnicity them or makes them unique, either as an American or not, then it is their responsibility to demonstrate it in their application.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: pikey on February 27, 2007, 07:38:35 AM
I find the argument "they are taking our spots" as offensive coming from a black person as a white person, but maybe thats just me.

not just you

thirded
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Eugene Young on February 27, 2007, 07:41:49 AM
Man, Butterz aren't you a non-trad?  If so, are you really trying to have this type of trivial argument with a younger applicant? No bueno.

Furthermore, IIRC most boxes say Black or African-American. MoniLi is clearly black, so she is entitled to check the box.  You have ppl who are wondering whether the fact that their great great great great grandfather was blk makes them entitled to click the box and you are arguing that MoniLi shouldn't?  Ridiculous.

Exactly.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Stand under my Umbrella ella ella, aye!! on February 27, 2007, 07:53:17 AM
where is this taking our spots stuff coming from.  I re-read the thread and no one has said that.  someone please quote it for me I may have missed it.  I hate that mentality it reeks of entitlement.

also, I've seen an international option.  but I literally went through 100 aps looking for hidden fee waivers etc...so...yeah, maybe its not on all aps.  

"some seperate out Mexicans or Puerto Ricans, but that still has to do with "ethnic" or national background, not current nationality"

I never argued anything about current nationality. I just said it was odd that they subgroup a race (hispanic) into different nationalities, whether that be their current or historic nationality.  I've even seen south asian on some applications.  Yet, they do not do this for black people.  I think I know their reasons for doing this, and I do not like it (numbers game).  However, I cannot say for certain that that is their reason for doing it. I will cede that I am somewhat cynical.

That said, I have no qualms with you reporting the way you did.  I hope I've made that clear, for whatever thats worth - maybe a gum ball or something.

Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: pikey on February 27, 2007, 08:01:25 AM
where is this taking our spots stuff coming from.  I re-read the thread and no one has said that.  someone please quote it for me I may have missed it.  I hate that mentality it reeks of entitlement.

also, I've seen an international option.  but I literally went through 100 aps looking for hidden fee waivers etc...so...yeah, maybe its not on all aps.  

"some seperate out Mexicans or Puerto Ricans, but that still has to do with "ethnic" or national background, not current nationality"

I never argued anything about current nationality. I just said it was odd that they subgroup a race (hispanic) into different nationalities, whether that be their current or historic nationality.  I've even seen south asian on some applications.  Yet, they do not do this for black people.  I think I know their reasons for doing this, and I do not like it (numbers game).  However, I cannot say for certain that that is their reason for doing it. I will cede that I am somewhat cynical.

That said, I have no qualms with you reporting the way you did.  I hope I've made that clear, for whatever thats worth - maybe a gum ball or something.



I think Hispanic is the only case where they seperate it out because some schools give certain Hispanics (usually Mexican and Puerto Rican) more of a boost.  I don't think many schools seperate out South Asian, in fact, they usually lump together the diverse group of Asian/Pacific Islander.  You cannot tell me that someone from Fiji has similar experiences to someone from China.  The trend is more towards broad geographic representations of race/ethnicity than specialised sub-categories.  Hispanic is the exception, not the rule.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Stand under my Umbrella ella ella, aye!! on February 27, 2007, 08:22:55 AM
but why do it for Mexicans (Hispanics), and not for blacks?  where does this exception to the rule come from? 
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: pikey on February 27, 2007, 08:27:08 AM
but why do it for Mexicans (Hispanics), and not for blacks?  where does this exception to the rule come from? 

Because Mexicans have historically born the brunt of a lot of discrimination, etc in the US, more so than many other Hispanic groups.  Blacks people in general are discriminated in the US, they don't care if you are from Ghana, Bahamas, or Dublin, GA.

Superficial example: there are tons of Mexican jokes or stereotypes, but the only Jamaican jokes/stereotypes you hear are amongst Black people.  Most non-Black people don't know and don't care.

ETA:  Most of the time Black people aren't complaining either.  Nobody is disowning Biggie because his Mom is Jamaican and being from Guinea certainly didn't prevent Diallo from being gunned down by the police (the ultimate black experience  ???).
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Miss P on February 27, 2007, 09:32:19 AM
I find the argument "they are taking our spots" as offensive coming from a black person as a white person, but maybe thats just me.

not just you

thirded

I disagree slightly.  I think they are equally wrongheaded, but not necessarily equally offensive.  A white applicant complaining that "undeserving" URM students are taking his (well, usually) spot fails to recognize the reality of educational and other disadvantage most URM students bring to the table.  An African American applicant making this complaint about international black applicants is specifically recognizing those disadvantages.  Further, Madness is right: Adcomms do seize on the opportunity to admit international black applicants with higher entry credentials at the expense of African American applicants with lower entry credentials; it's not the African American students who are pitting themselves against international black applicants, it's the adcomms.  Still, I find the complaint misdirected, crass, unsavvy, etc.  And most important, it should never be leveled at individual applicants, like Moni, who are responding to race/ethnicity and other questions truthfully.

But I'm mostly posting as a belated tag.  Seeing Moni get all up in someone's face is hot.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Statistic on February 27, 2007, 09:33:53 AM
Seeing Moni get all up in someone's face is hot.

 :D
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: leostrauss on February 27, 2007, 09:40:23 AM
I was wondering, if they give advantages to races which have clearly been discriminated against in the nation's past/present, then why not for nationalities that have been discriminated against (think Chinese, Irish, Italians, Mexicans etc)? Or do they? just trying to understand this complicated crap. thanks
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: One Step Ahead on February 27, 2007, 09:50:12 AM
I find the argument "they are taking our spots" as offensive coming from a black person as a white person, but maybe thats just me.

not just you

thirded

I disagree slightly.  I think they are equally wrongheaded, but not necessarily equally offensive.  A white applicant complaining that "undeserving" URM students are taking his (well, usually) spot fails to recognize the reality of educational and other disadvantage most URM students bring to the table.  An African American applicant making this complaint about international black applicants is specifically recognizing those disadvantages.  Further, Madness is right: Adcomms do seize on the opportunity to admit international black applicants with higher entry credentials at the expense of African American applicants with lower entry credentials; it's not the African American students who are pitting themselves against international black applicants, it's the adcomms.  Still, I find the complaint misdirected, crass, unsavvy, etc.  And most important, it should never be leveled at individual applicants, like Moni, who are responding to race/ethnicity and other questions truthfully.

But I'm mostly posting as a belated tag.  Seeing Moni get all up in someone's face is hot.

I disagree.  They are both neglecting the value that the individual brings to the slot.  Why does a rich or uppermiddle class African American feel entitlement towards a particular slot over an African or Carribbean who may have themselves gone to shanty schools/faced obstacles etc.  Both views implicitly bring the baggage of their own version of merit/entitlement that I find problematic.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Miss P on February 27, 2007, 09:57:57 AM
Like I said, I agree that the sense of entitlement is wrongheaded, and it bugs me to no end.  I still think that a recognition of the uniqueness of African American experiences, as distinguished both from other minority experiences and majority experiences, is less offensive than a pure numbers-based complaint.  That doesn't mean that I think international black applicants are undeserving of whatever extra consideration they may get under affirmative action programs.  It means that I think it's unfortunate that adcomms likely use that extra consideration to justify their lack of extra consideration of black applicants (whether they be international or African American) with lower numbers.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: pikey on February 27, 2007, 10:01:13 AM
I find the argument "they are taking our spots" as offensive coming from a black person as a white person, but maybe thats just me.

not just you

thirded

I disagree slightly.  I think they are equally wrongheaded, but not necessarily equally offensive.  A white applicant complaining that "undeserving" URM students are taking his (well, usually) spot fails to recognize the reality of educational and other disadvantage most URM students bring to the table.  An African American applicant making this complaint about international black applicants is specifically recognizing those disadvantages.  Further, Madness is right: Adcomms do seize on the opportunity to admit international black applicants with higher entry credentials at the expense of African American applicants with lower entry credentials; it's not the African American students who are pitting themselves against international black applicants, it's the adcomms.  Still, I find the complaint misdirected, crass, unsavvy, etc.  And most important, it should never be leveled at individual applicants, like Moni, who are responding to race/ethnicity and other questions truthfully.

But I'm mostly posting as a belated tag.  Seeing Moni get all up in someone's face is hot.

I disagree.  They are both neglecting the value that the individual brings to the slot.  Why does a rich or uppermiddle class African American feel entitlement towards a particular slot over an African or Carribbean who may have themselves gone to shanty schools/faced obstacles etc.  Both views implicitly bring the baggage of their own version of merit/entitlement that I find problematic.

Ita.  Just because someone if not American, even if they are from a country where they are not the (demographic) minority, does not mean that they are not disadvantaged or have not been discriminated against.  Even if they haven't, is discriminate or disadvantage the only marker of Blackness?  Is that the scale we should use to judge who is most deserving?  I would argue that it isn't.

Even if it we all agreed that it is the correct scale, in the end it doesn't matter what we think.  What matters is what admissions people think.  It's their perogative to choose whoever they want to make up their law school.  Part of the problem is that there are so many objectives for AA, some of which are conflicting.  If your goal is diversity than it might make sense to choose a Black person from Ghana over a Black American.  If your goal is to redress historical wrongs then you'd probably do the opposite.  The reality is that none of us really know exactly why we are selected to attend a school...
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Miss P on February 27, 2007, 10:04:28 AM
I don't disagree with either of you.  My point was more subtle.  Or silly.  Or maybe I was just wrong.  Who knows?
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: pikey on February 27, 2007, 10:07:14 AM
I don't disagree with either of you.  My point was more subtle.  Or silly.  Or maybe I was just wrong.  Who knows?

I understand the point you're making.  I just don't know that it's fair to expect schools to make that distinction for Black people when they don't do it for anyone else...  Heck, Black people can't agree what's "Black enough" (or "American enough"), why should we expect law schools to?
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: One Step Ahead on February 27, 2007, 10:08:10 AM
I don't disagree with either of you.  My point was more subtle.  Or silly.  Or maybe I was just wrong.  Who knows?

You wrong!  :D
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Miss P on February 27, 2007, 10:12:01 AM
I don't disagree with either of you.  My point was more subtle.  Or silly.  Or maybe I was just wrong.  Who knows?

I understand the point you're making.  I just don't know that it's fair to expect schools to make that distinction for Black people when they don't do it for anyone else...  Heck, Black people can't agree what's "Black enough" (or "American enough"), why should we expect law schools to?

Well, it's not that I don't think schools make that distinction.  I think schools prey upon that distinction precisely because the ABA and USNews do not make it.  But no, I don't think this is a good enough reason to change the ABA and USNews standards.  I would like law schools to admit more black people -- international, African American, I don't really care.  

All I was saying is that the "You're taking my spot!" complaint coming from an embittered African American applicant is somewhat different from the same complaint (leveled against all black applicants) coming from an embittered white applicant.  That was really it.

I don't disagree with either of you.  My point was more subtle.  Or silly.  Or maybe I was just wrong.  Who knows?

You wrong!  :D

It wouldn't be the first time.  :D
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Miss P on February 27, 2007, 10:15:02 AM
I don't disagree with either of you.  My point was more subtle.  Or silly.  Or maybe I was just wrong.  Who knows?

right for the wrong reasons.

Wisen me up.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: leostrauss on February 27, 2007, 10:48:23 AM
I was wondering, if they give advantages to races which have clearly been discriminated against in the nation's past/present, then why not for nationalities that have been discriminated against (think Chinese, Irish, Italians, Mexicans etc)? Or do they? just trying to understand this complicated crap. thanks
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: leostrauss on February 27, 2007, 10:54:01 AM
thanks!

just as a follow up: does anyone ever argue that such considerations/actions fail the separate but equal test? why/why not?
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: leostrauss on February 27, 2007, 10:55:09 AM
also, how about jews? aren't they currently discriminated against?
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: leostrauss on February 27, 2007, 10:59:29 AM
yeah, I read thomas' dissent there. Have you read seattle school district v parents? Roberts makes a remark about it in the oral argument, but then sorta leaves it. I'm wondering if this argument is taken seriously. Good point about the jews. So, the standard is: 1)must be discriminated against, and 2) must be effective discrimination. So, does this apply only broadly (meaning to the whole race)? If so, then how many jews would have to be effectively discriminated against to count? What does effective discrimination look like? If not, then does it apply to individuals? If it does, then shouldnt each person have to prove their own disadvantage? If not, then how does this work in practice? thanks
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: leostrauss on February 27, 2007, 11:04:54 AM
also, I thought it was grutter v bollinger. I could be wrong. I don't remember clearly
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: leostrauss on February 27, 2007, 11:25:18 AM
I don't have a position, because I think we need affirmative action, but I also fear that many times as we put these good ideas into practice we lose respect for what got us what little progress we have in the first place. I'm truly truly perplexed. I know people like Ginsburg, Stevens, Kennedy Breyer Thomas Roberts Souter Rehnquist Alito Scalia  etc realize what Thomas/Roberts are pointing out, but I dont think they take it seriously. Surely its not just because it's inconvenient to their arg. I think these things just get really sticky when put into practice, and I wish I had a way to understand in a clear/legal way where we are headed. I think it would cut down on the debate. I fear, though, both sides are too concerned about some sort of agenda to pause and think things through objectively/rationally/responsibly. That's no good. That gets us nowhere, or so I suspect. I could easily have it all wrong though, and that's why I'm slow to take a side.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: leostrauss on February 27, 2007, 11:34:24 AM
Can i get that by googling it? If not, where can I get it? I will read it, and I appreciate the nudge in an informative direction.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: leostrauss on February 27, 2007, 11:46:11 AM
I work at a law firm that has all of this stuff, but I'm not sure if they will let me check stuff out for leisure reading. Thanks a bunch though. I'll have access to a good law library in a matter of months ;)
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Stand under my Umbrella ella ella, aye!! on February 27, 2007, 12:56:07 PM
enh.  I disagree mole.

I think the main reason Mexicans are granted that boost over say an Argentinian is because of the Mexican population.  If white hispanics were given the same boost as Mexicans would the Mexican perspective get heard?  Higher education has reasoned, no.  That Argentinians do not represent the Mexican perspective, thus Mexicans are given a boost above and beyond Argentinians to ensure Mexicans have a voice.  Indeed, the Mexican population in the US is growing exponentially.  Conversely, it seems schools have reasoned that a Jamaican (no matter how long hes lived in the US) can be a voice for American born blacks.  I'm not too sure that is an assumption that can be made.  To be frank, I think it has less to do with Diallo and the discrimination immigrant blacks face than with it merely being a way to tweak the numbers.

That said, I would never look at an immigrant derisively for receiving the boost.  As one person has already stated, I'm for more black faces.  period.  I mean Asians get hit over the head by AA, and American born blacks are beneffiting less from it, but white numbers always stay the same.  hmmm... 
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: pikey on February 27, 2007, 01:05:01 PM
enh.  I disagree mole.

I think the main reason Mexicans are granted that boost over say an Argentinian is because of the Mexican population.  If white hispanics were given the same boost as Mexicans would the Mexican perspective get heard?  Higher education has reasoned, no.  That Argentinians do not represent the Mexican perspective, thus Mexicans are given a boost above and beyond Argentinians to ensure Mexicans have a voice.  Indeed, the Mexican population in the US is growing exponentially.  Conversely, it seems schools have reasoned that a Jamaican (no matter how long hes lived in the US) can be a voice for American born blacks.  I'm not too sure that is an assumption that can be made.  To be frank, I think it has less to do with Diallo and the discrimination immigrant blacks face than with it merely being a way to tweak the numbers.

That said, I would never look at an immigrant derisively for receiving the boost.  As one person has already stated, I'm for more black faces.  period.  I mean Asians get hit over the head by AA, and American born blacks are beneffiting less from it, but white numbers always stay the same.  hmmm... 

You're confusing race and nationality.  A Mexican gets the same consideration regardless of whether he/she is White, Mestizo, etc.  There are plenty of White Mexicans who don't look like the 'stereotypical' Hispanic who get the same consideration as any other Mexican.

Schools have not reasoned that Jamaican blacks are a voice for American Blacks, they have reasoned that they are a Black voice.  Period.  Blackness is defined by 'racial' factors, not nationality.  Asian are defined by 'race', white people are defined by 'race'.  Obviously these are broad generalizations, but you get my point.

Hispanic is the only 'category' that is defined by nationality, because it has no racial identifier.  You can be Black, White or other and still be Hispanic.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Stand under my Umbrella ella ella, aye!! on February 27, 2007, 01:23:52 PM
white hispanic is just a category that they have on aps.  Maybe I should have been more clear.  I understand that there are white mexicans (which actually pokes holes in your discrimination argument).  I also know what a mestizo is. 

"they have reasoned that they are a Black voice.  Period.  Blackness is defined by 'racial' factors, not nationality. "

and thats the problem.  if they were to be consistent across the board, and say a hispanic voice is a hispanic voice.  I would understand.  However schools clearly make the distinction between a Mexican and a Hispanic born in Spain.  I posit that this has to do with the prevalence of Mexicans in the US.  Why have people from Spain receiving the boost, when Mexicans are the vast majority of Hispanics in the US?  And thus need the representation.  However, American born blacks are just as prevalent as Mexicans.  And worthy of the same consideration, in regards to nationality, in my eyes.  If not, keep it consistant across the board.  Hispanic is hispanic.  Black is black.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Miss P on February 27, 2007, 01:25:14 PM
AA has a social policy component to it that is both retrospective & prospective. It isn't entirely and always about the 'merit', 'qualifications', 'obstacles overcome', etc that individual applicants bring to the table.

African-American is a problematic category, yes, but not nearly as problematic as 'hispanic' or any other designation. Schools should set aside a minimum # of spots for african-americans [a quota, yes]. Not because of whatever retrospective merit the particular applicant brings to the table, but because there is an strong prospective value to turning out african-american lawyers. 

Whereas schools make an attempt to distinguish betweenthe korean and the filipina, between the argentine and the puerto rican, they apparently make no such attempt to distinguish between African-American and Black. That's on them and not on the black applicant who marks the box.


ETA: butterz's posts are silly and annoying precisely because they traffic in the same kinds of half-truths that anti-AA people use. 

I think that I agree with you, but I'm not sure this is the crucial distinction.  Non-American black lawyers who want to practice in the U.S. bring at least some of the same special (if not unproblematically assessed ;))value as African American lawyers, right?  I could be missing something here.

I agree with you about the rest.  I'm just less sure, perhaps, that affirmative action programs really do lead to the kinds of comprehensive assessments of merit (however defined) we want.  Law schools look to cut corners, and I think they do so by admitting a minimum number of black applicants, and they assess those candidates principally based on numbers.  To this extent, African American applicants and international black applicants may really be pitted against each other.  

I still think the programs, as they stand, are better than any of the available (legal) alternatives (e.g., not actual, if flexible, quota systems -- which I would endorse), and I am still entirely behind (a) any school's attempts to admit and matriculate more black students, whether they be African American or otherwise black, and (b) any black applicant's "checking the box," whether they be African American or otherwise black.  I would just love to see schools take a more critical look at the value of the LSAT, for example.

EDIT to correct an embarrassing typo, forever captured in Moni's and Gao's posts.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on February 27, 2007, 02:09:16 PM
Gao, I really wish you'd stop changing you name all the time...I get too confused  :-[
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on February 27, 2007, 02:16:51 PM
:D

Look at my sig. It'll never change.

good point  :)
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Miss P on February 27, 2007, 02:37:30 PM
There is no question, I think, that black applicants from recent-immigrant backgrounds are disproportionately well-placed to benefit from the "Black" designation on college and professional school applications. Black lawyers, physicians, investment bankser, etc are increasingly of proximate Nigerian, Ghanaian, Eritro-Ethiopian & Jamaican backgrounds.  It is not hard to see how this could excacerbate the Good-Black/Bad-Black dynamic that will further serve to stereotype and stigmatize African-Americans, a process that is already well under way. In so far as a major objective of AA is to reverse stereotyping and stigmatization of African-Americans over time, this is or would be a perverse result.

I think this is an interesting issue, and I'd like to see some research on whether the good black/bad black dynamic operates through national-ethnic distinctions as much as it does through class (or at all).  If you know of any resources, let me know. :)



Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: pikey on February 27, 2007, 04:25:10 PM
white hispanic is just a category that they have on aps.  Maybe I should have been more clear.  I understand that there are white mexicans (which actually pokes holes in your discrimination argument).  I also know what a mestizo is. 

"they have reasoned that they are a Black voice.  Period.  Blackness is defined by 'racial' factors, not nationality. "

and thats the problem.  if they were to be consistent across the board, and say a hispanic voice is a hispanic voice.  I would understand.  However schools clearly make the distinction between a Mexican and a Hispanic born in Spain.  I posit that this has to do with the prevalence of Mexicans in the US.  Why have people from Spain receiving the boost, when Mexicans are the vast majority of Hispanics in the US?  And thus need the representation.  However, American born blacks are just as prevalent as Mexicans.  And worthy of the same consideration, in regards to nationality, in my eyes.  If not, keep it consistant across the board.  Hispanic is hispanic.  Black is black.

People born in Spain aren't Hispanic and don't receive a boost.  Hispanic is Hispanic.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: pikey on February 27, 2007, 04:31:18 PM

I think that I agree with you, but I'm not sure this is the crucial distinction.  Non-American black lawyers who want to practice in the U.S. bring at least some of the same special (if not unproblematically assessed ;))value as African American lawyers, right?  I could be missing something here.

I agree with you about the rest.  I'm just less sure, perhaps, that affirmative action programs really do lead to the kinds of comprehensive assessments of merit (however defined) we want.  Law schools look to cut corners, and I think they do so by admitting a minimum number of black applicants, and they assess those candidates principally based on numbers.  To this extent, African American applicants and international black applicants may really be pitted against each other.  

I still think the programs, as they stand, are better than any of the available (legal) alternatives (e.g., not actual, if flexible, quota systems -- which I would endorse), and I am still entirely behind (a) any school's attempts to admit and matriculate more black students, whether they be African American or otherwise black, and (b) any black applicant's "checking the box," whether they be African American or otherwise black.  I would just love to see school's take a more critical look at the value of the LSAT, for example.

I agree 100% with the last couple of paragraphs.

As to the first paragraph, I am concerned that the way that schools implement affirmative action will inexorably lead to the increasing invisibility of African-Americans in professional life.

There is no question, I think, that black applicants from recent-immigrant backgrounds are disproportionately well-placed to benefit from the "Black" designation on college and professional school applications. Black lawyers, physicians, investment bankser, etc are increasingly of proximate Nigerian, Ghanaian, Eritro-Ethiopian & Jamaican backgrounds.  It is not hard to see how this could excacerbate the Good-Black/Bad-Black dynamic that will further serve to stereotype and stigmatize African-Americans, a process that is already well under way. In so far as a major objective of AA is to reverse stereotyping and stigmatization of African-Americans over time, this is or would be a perverse result.

Just like all other immigrant groups, it becomes less of a problem as Blacks assimilate.  I have tons of friends who are Black Americans but their parents are immigrants and you could not tell the difference between them and a 'regular African American' unless you knew.  Other Black people wouldn't know (unless they were told) and White people definitely don't know that they aren't as African American as Alex Haley. 

I think Miss P is correct in saying that the Good Black is more of a class issue than a nationality/ethnicity issue.  These up-and-coming immigrants (and children of immigrants) will (mostly) marry middle and upper class blacks (immigrants and AAs).

The issue that bothers me: How long (in terms of family history) does one have to be in the US to be considered African American?
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Miss P on February 27, 2007, 06:33:29 PM
I think it should be a matter of self-identification more than anything else.  Not that anyone asked me. :D
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: TurboGirl on February 27, 2007, 10:51:38 PM
Reading some of this I thought I should add that not all blacks born in the United States are African-American. I know many black people who have parents who were both born in Trinidad, or Gayana, while they were born here in the U.S. By saying that only African-Americans should be able to check the box, that closes the door for a lot of other American blacks. Personally I've never noticed the box with the option of only African-American, for me it's always said Black/African American which brought up my question in the first place.

It's difficult to really get on anyone's case about being foreign born and raised, then checking the African-American box when, as shown in the confusion displayed in this topic, there is such a lack-of-clarification, ignorance, and indifference surrounding the requirements for any given box.

That being said, I find it interesting that some surveys go the extra step and tell you if you aren't sure, or are of mixed heritage, to check the box of whichever option you appear closest too.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Miss P on February 28, 2007, 01:47:24 PM

Do I sense skepticism? [ :)]

Actually, seriously not at all.  I don't know anything about this kind of stuff (I know about differences in achievement, but that's it).  I was (and am) genuinely curious, if a little too lazy to wade through all those names.  If you can come up with a specific cite or two, I'd be very grateful. :)
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Stand under my Umbrella ella ella, aye!! on February 28, 2007, 02:13:44 PM
"People born in Spain aren't Hispanic and don't receive a boost.  Hispanic is Hispanic"

okay.  I did not know people from Spain aren't considered Hispanic.  At any rate, thats just one example.  Cubans ARE Hispanic, yet they don't receive the Mexican boost.  Hispanic is not Hispanic.  Some Hispanics get greater boosts than others.  Why does nationaility matter with Hispanics, but not with blacks?  Again, I posit that it is a way to tweak the numbers.  I disagree with that strategy.  It is disingenuous.  Otherwise, be the same across the board.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on February 28, 2007, 03:27:08 PM
"People born in Spain aren't Hispanic and don't receive a boost.  Hispanic is Hispanic"

okay.  I did not know people from Spain aren't considered Hispanic.  At any rate, thats just one example.  Cubans ARE Hispanic, yet they don't receive the Mexican boost.  Hispanic is not Hispanic.  Some Hispanics get greater boosts than others.  Why does nationaility matter with Hispanics, but not with blacks?  Again, I posit that it is a way to tweak the numbers.  I disagree with that strategy.  It is disingenuous.  Otherwise, be the same across the board.


I didn't know that Mexican = Hispanic.

Hispanic refers to the ppl from the Spanish diaspora iirc, that's why Spainards aren't considered hispanic.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: TurboGirl on February 28, 2007, 04:03:10 PM
"People born in Spain aren't Hispanic and don't receive a boost.  Hispanic is Hispanic"

okay.  I did not know people from Spain aren't considered Hispanic.  At any rate, thats just one example.  Cubans ARE Hispanic, yet they don't receive the Mexican boost.  Hispanic is not Hispanic.  Some Hispanics get greater boosts than others.  Why does nationaility matter with Hispanics, but not with blacks?  Again, I posit that it is a way to tweak the numbers.  I disagree with that strategy.  It is disingenuous.  Otherwise, be the same across the board.


Nationality doesn't matter with Hispanics. Mexicans are not Hispanics which is why they are not grouped together. Saying that Mexicans and Cubans should get the same boost on the basis that they are both Hispanics is incorrect.

Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: flyaway on February 28, 2007, 04:40:15 PM
"People born in Spain aren't Hispanic and don't receive a boost.  Hispanic is Hispanic"

okay.  I did not know people from Spain aren't considered Hispanic.  At any rate, thats just one example.  Cubans ARE Hispanic, yet they don't receive the Mexican boost.  Hispanic is not Hispanic.  Some Hispanics get greater boosts than others.  Why does nationaility matter with Hispanics, but not with blacks?  Again, I posit that it is a way to tweak the numbers.  I disagree with that strategy.  It is disingenuous.  Otherwise, be the same across the board.


I didn't know that Mexican = Hispanic.

Hispanic refers to the ppl from the Spanish diaspora iirc, that's why Spainards aren't considered hispanic.

I didn't know what that meant, so I went to wikpedia (yes I know I'm not black, but there are still interesting topics here sometimes):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic

This makes me thinks there are stricter and looser definitions.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Stand under my Umbrella ella ella, aye!! on March 01, 2007, 12:42:41 AM
from wikipedia:


"Hispanic" specifically refers to Spain, and to the Spanish-speaking nations of the Americas, as cultural and demographic extensions of Spain. It should be further noted that in a U.S. context, a Hispanic population consists of the people of Spain and everyone with origins in any of Spanish-speaking nations of the Americas, regardless of ancestry of the latter (including Amerindians). In the context of Spain and Latin America, a Hispanic population consists of the people of Spain, and when regarding the inhabitants of the Spanish-speaking nations of the Americas, includes only criollos, mestizos, mulattos, and others with Spanish ancestry, to the exclusion of indigenous Amerindians, unmixed descendants of black Africans and whites or other peoples from later migrations without any Spanish lineage.

yeah.  knew i wasnt crazy.  This is the U.S. right?

at any rate, i think there is some confusion about this because alot of people we would call hispanic have fought off the term hispanic.  choosing latino and chicano instead.  they basically created new terms to better fit what they beleive themselves to be, and to demarcate where they differ from "hispanics".  I'm not mad.  I think American born blacks should follow suit.  thats a different conversation however, and one i really dont feel like debating.  I will say, drawing that line has benefitted them.  at least as far as aa goes.  kudos.  nonetheless, cubans and mexicans are considered hispanic in the broader sense (as far as the U.S. is concerned) - same way Texas is Texas and not Tejas.

Hispanic is not hispanic.  as some people from Spanish-speaking nations of the Americas receive greater boosts than others.  They account for nationality. 
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: 1654134681665465 on March 26, 2007, 12:22:39 PM
This whole nationality argument is idiotic.  I think that affirmative action has served its usefulness and should be done away with.  Racism has been stomped out as much as it can be.  I'm white and I have met soooooo many black and Hispanic, Mexican, Latino (whatever they are called) racists.  Everyone thinks that only white people are racist and it is just not true.  The majority of white people are very tolerant and understanding, probably more so than most minorities.  As a child, I had it crammed into my mind that I was a horrible person for being white.  Once I got out into the real world and saw how people really acted, I quickly saw that this was not the case.  The only way to make school as fair as possible is to look at what a person has done, IE scores and experience. 

Besides, there are so many mixed people these days that using "race" as a factor for getting into school is misleading at best. 
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: leostrauss on March 26, 2007, 12:27:47 PM
This whole nationality argument is idiotic.  I think that affirmative action has served its usefulness and should be done away with.  Racism has been stomped out as much as it can be.  I'm white and I have met soooooo many black and Hispanic, Mexican, Latino (whatever they are called) racists.  Everyone thinks that only white people are racist and it is just not true.  The majority of white people are very tolerant and understanding, probably more so than most minorities.  As a child, I had it crammed into my mind that I was a horrible person for being white.  Once I got out into the real world and saw how people really acted, I quickly saw that this was not the case.  The only way to make school as fair as possible is to look at what a person has done, IE scores and experience. 

Besides, there are so many mixed people these days that using "race" as a factor for getting into school is misleading at best. 

wow, you're right . .. it's so simple. False alarm everybody! Forget about it.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: 1654134681665465 on March 26, 2007, 03:57:44 PM
So many problems in this country ARE simple.  It is just that nobody has the balls to step up to the plate and to something about it.  Everyone is too afraid to do anything about it. 

Affirmative Action is broken and out of date.  Nothing will get done about it unless enough people actually say something about it. 
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Smokey on March 26, 2007, 05:03:41 PM
This whole nationality argument is idiotic.  I think that affirmative action has served its usefulness and should be done away with.  Racism has been stomped out as much as it can be.  I'm white and I have met soooooo many black and Hispanic, Mexican, Latino (whatever they are called) racists.  Everyone thinks that only white people are racist and it is just not true.  The majority of white people are very tolerant and understanding, probably more so than most minorities.  As a child, I had it crammed into my mind that I was a horrible person for being white.  Once I got out into the real world and saw how people really acted, I quickly saw that this was not the case.  The only way to make school as fair as possible is to look at what a person has done, IE scores and experience. 

Besides, there are so many mixed people these days that using "race" as a factor for getting into school is misleading at best. 


I definitely agree that there are Black and Hispanic racists, but the thing is that racism on an individual level doesn't matter.   It doesn't matter when individual white people are racist either.  What matters is institutional racism, because this is what kills people, keeps people from getting jobs, apts, loans, houses, being elected into political office, etc.  Blacks and Hispanics aren't really in the position to hurt whites by implementing institutional racism against them, so these biases aren't as important as far as policy is concerned.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Ulfrekr on March 27, 2007, 08:28:53 AM
Quote
Blacks and Hispanics aren't really in the position to hurt whites by implementing institutional racism against them, so these biases aren't as important as far as policy is concerned.

Seriously. Why is this so hard for people to grasp?

Also, this right here:
Quote
The majority of white people are very tolerant and understanding, probably more so than most minorities.
is itself a racist statement.

And ALSO, I'm not really sure what to make of this:
Quote
Besides, there are so many mixed people these days that using "race" as a factor for getting into school is misleading at best.
and would like some clarification on what was trying to be said there.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: 1654134681665465 on March 28, 2007, 01:02:53 PM
First of all, saying that white people are "very tolerant and understanding, probably more so than most minorities" is not a racist statement.  It is an observation I have made having grown up in a majority white suburb-then living in Newark, NJ where there were more blacks and hispanics than whites.  Seeing blacks attack hispanics because many are illegal and carry a lot of cash on them, and hearing many hispanics refer to blacks in horribly racist terms was quite common.  In addition, white people (including myself) have been told that we are such a horrible bunch of people for white people did in the past (not even my ancestors).  I have had "tolerance" crammed down my throat from the first day of school.  Me, and many of my classmates, openly accepted this-which is why I was shocked at what I saw when I lived in Newark. 

In response to "institutional racism"-so when whites are the minority and are in a position to be hurt by the impelmenting of institutional racism, will there by policies for their protection?   While there might be institutional racism at the career level, colleges are WELL past this point.  Why can't students just be accepted for what they have accomplished and not for the color of their skin?

Quote
Besides, there are so many mixed people these days that using "race" as a factor for getting into school is misleading at best.
and would like some clarification on what was trying to be said there.
This refers to AA.  I've met people who don't consider themselves one race or another.  How can race be used in the admissions process when people don't identify themselves as a particular race?  You can't-at least not fairly. 

People want AA because it gives them an advantage-not because they feel that it is morally justified.  It is the embodiment of racism-using race to benefit one group over another. 
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Miss P on March 28, 2007, 01:14:51 PM
People want AA because it gives them an advantage-not because they feel that it is morally justified.  It is the embodiment of racism-using race to benefit one group over another. 

Try again.  Most of the people around here who advocate for affirmative action are not in a position to benefit from it (except by attending more diverse schools), and a lot of the people who are in a position to benefit from it do not support it.  The notion that it is simply a matter of crass self-interest really should be dead by now.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: 1654134681665465 on March 28, 2007, 01:28:57 PM
Quote
ry again.  Most of the people around here who advocate for affirmative action are not in a position to benefit from it (except by attending more diverse schools), and a lot of the people who are in a position to benefit from it do not support it.  The notion that it is simply a matter of crass self-interest really should be dead by now.

Where is your evidence?  How do you know that most people who support it won't benefit from it?  Unless there is some evidence to back this up, then you have no way of knowing. 
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Miss P on March 28, 2007, 01:40:31 PM
lol

Yeah.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Mr. Bitterness on March 28, 2007, 02:21:43 PM
First of all, saying that white people are "very tolerant and understanding, probably more so than most minorities" is not a racist statement.  It is an observation I have made having grown up in a majority white suburb-then living in Newark, NJ where there were more blacks and hispanics than whites.  Seeing blacks attack hispanics because many are illegal and carry a lot of cash on them, and hearing many hispanics refer to blacks in horribly racist terms was quite common.  In addition, white people (including myself) have been told that we are such a horrible bunch of people for white people did in the past (not even my ancestors).  I have had "tolerance" crammed down my throat from the first day of school.  Me, and many of my classmates, openly accepted this-which is why I was shocked at what I saw when I lived in Newark.

It's racist because it's making a big, negative blanket statement about race (minorities are probably more intolerant and less understanding than whites) based on the few you've met in Newark. Now unless every single minority lives in Newark, or unless Newark minorities were exactly analogous to every other minority that lives in any other region of the country, that statement is foolish and racist. That's like me saying that, since I grew up in Ohio and most white Ohioans where I'm from are good farmers and the black folk don't farm at all, than white folks are generally better farmers than any other race. It's just deeply illogical.
 

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In response to "institutional racism"-so when whites are the minority and are in a position to be hurt by the impelmenting of institutional racism, will there by policies for their protection?

Should that day ever come, and should minorities actually sieze the opportunity to discriminate against white people, then yes, policies should be put into place for their protection.

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While there might be institutional racism at the career level, colleges are WELL past this point.

Colleges are well past this point? That's a bold statement. Where's your proof of this?

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People want AA because it gives them an advantage-not because they feel that it is morally justified.  It is the embodiment of racism-using race to benefit one group over another. 

People want AA for themselves for advantage reasons, yes. But policy-makers, the ones who institute AA, want it because it's "morally justified". Or at least it's more morally justified than the alternative of letting URMs continue to be an uneducated underclass.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: 1654134681665465 on March 28, 2007, 02:59:51 PM
Wrong.  Policy makers want it because it gets votes. 
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: One Step Ahead on March 28, 2007, 03:04:22 PM
Dear moderators,

can we move this entire thread or the parts of this thread implicated to the more appropriate Affirmative Action childboard?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Miss P on March 28, 2007, 03:09:07 PM
Wrong.  Policy makers want it because it gets votes. 

In those elections for university regents and admissions committees?  What are you talking about?  And how does it "get votes" if you believe that only people who benefit directly from affirmative action, who are, by definition, minorities, could possibly support it?
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Miss P on March 28, 2007, 03:09:26 PM
Dear moderators,

can we move this entire thread or the parts of this thread implicated to the more appropriate Affirmative Action childboard?

Thanks.

Hear, hear.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: 1654134681665465 on March 28, 2007, 03:12:40 PM
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First of all, saying that white people are "very tolerant and understanding, probably more so than most minorities" is not a racist statement.  It is an observation I have made having grown up in a majority white suburb-then living in Newark, NJ where there were more blacks and hispanics than whites.  Seeing blacks attack hispanics because many are illegal and carry a lot of cash on them, and hearing many hispanics refer to blacks in horribly racist terms was quite common.  In addition, white people (including myself) have been told that we are such a horrible bunch of people for white people did in the past (not even my ancestors).  I have had "tolerance" crammed down my throat from the first day of school.  Me, and many of my classmates, openly accepted this-which is why I was shocked at what I saw when I lived in Newark.

It's racist because it's making a big, negative blanket statement about race (minorities are probably more intolerant and less understanding than whites) based on the few you've met in Newark. Now unless every single minority lives in Newark, or unless Newark minorities were exactly analogous to every other minority that lives in any other region of the country, that statement is foolish and racist. That's like me saying that, since I grew up in Ohio and most white Ohioans where I'm from are good farmers and the black folk don't farm at all, than white folks are generally better farmers than any other race. It's just deeply illogical.

First of all it is an observation-what I have seen and experienced.  I don't think that every minority I meet is less tolerant than white people.  So yes, it is illogical, as most observations are, but it is what I have seen. 

You calling my statement racist is a cheap way of getting out of having to make a valid argument for yourself as to why you disagree with my observation.  Blanket beliefs are racist, not an observation. 

As for having proof that institutional racism doesn't exist in higher education, I don't have to have any.  Unless it can be proven that it still exists, then AA should be done away with.  If institutional racism doesn't exist and AA is still being used, then it is a racist program. 

My whole point is that student gender and race shouldn't be taken into account in the admissions process.  Scores, grades, resumes are what acceptance should be based on. 

Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: 1654134681665465 on March 28, 2007, 03:14:59 PM
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Dear moderators,

can we move this entire thread or the parts of this thread implicated to the more appropriate Affirmative Action childboard?

Thanks.

Sounds good.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Bridge83 on March 28, 2007, 03:20:00 PM
My whole point is that student gender and race shouldn't be taken into account in the admissions process.  Scores, grades, resumes are what acceptance should be based on.

Scores, grades and resumes are heavily influenced by race, gender and background.  These influences and biases can haunt generations.  It is not that simple.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: 1654134681665465 on March 28, 2007, 05:02:52 PM
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Scores, grades and resumes are heavily influenced by race, gender and background.  These influences and biases can haunt generations.  It is not that simple.

So how long should AA and other policies be used to try and "equalize"?  The system is probably never going to be equal.  Someone somewhere is always going to be disadvantaged.  AA only perpetuates steriotypes and discriminates against others. 
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Miss P on March 28, 2007, 06:36:45 PM
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Scores, grades and resumes are heavily influenced by race, gender and background.  These influences and biases can haunt generations.  It is not that simple.

So how long should AA and other policies be used to try and "equalize"?  The system is probably never going to be equal.  Someone somewhere is always going to be disadvantaged.  AA only perpetuates steriotypes and discriminates against others. 

You can't pretend to be thoughtful or informed about this when people are trying to tell you about recent research in the area, and all you can do is respond to the thread title.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: 1654134681665465 on March 28, 2007, 08:12:03 PM
Of course I am responding to the thread title-that's why I came to this thread. 

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You can't pretend to be thoughtful or informed about this when people are trying to tell you about recent research in the area, and all you can do is respond to the thread title.

There are several studies out there which support both sides, so one study doesn't necessarily prove anything. 
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Miss P on March 28, 2007, 08:16:10 PM
Of course I am responding to the thread title-that's why I came to this thread. 

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You can't pretend to be thoughtful or informed about this when people are trying to tell you about recent research in the area, and all you can do is respond to the thread title.

There are several studies out there which support both sides, so one study doesn't necessarily prove anything. 

I meant in the "Why Affirmative Action is Justified" thread, where Cal suggested you go when you asked for evidence of racial bias in the admissions process.  Maybe you should just try reading it.  Or you could take another practice test and post your score, either way, really.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: 1654134681665465 on March 28, 2007, 08:29:23 PM
I could post another practice test score, or I could put some awesome quote.  Or how about I try and find a pic as cool as yours?  There are several things I could do make myself as sweet as Miss P. 
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: Miss P on March 28, 2007, 08:32:24 PM
I could post another practice test score, or I could put some awesome quote.  Or how about I try and find a pic as cool as yours?  There are several things I could do make myself as sweet as Miss P. 

Try reading.
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: ladi on March 31, 2007, 11:01:58 AM
Reading some of this I thought I should add that not all blacks born in the United States are African-American. I know many black people who have parents who were both born in Trinidad, or Gayana, while they were born here in the U.S. By saying that only African-Americans should be able to check the box, that closes the door for a lot of other American blacks. Personally I've never noticed the box with the option of only African-American, for me it's always said Black/African American which brought up my question in the first place.

It's difficult to really get on anyone's case about being foreign born and raised, then checking the African-American box when, as shown in the confusion displayed in this topic, there is such a lack-of-clarification, ignorance, and indifference surrounding the requirements for any given box.

That being said, I find it interesting that some surveys go the extra step and tell you if you aren't sure, or are of mixed heritage, to check the box of whichever option you appear closest too.

Interesting discussion. I believe the statistics included all ethnic African descendants, for lack of better words. There are boxes that only say African-American which for me is problematic. Neither do I care for the black/african-american box as to me it is equating the two as one in the same.  I am American of Caribbean descent and also of mixed heritage. I will generally mark "other" and specify, mark or "black" if listed  without African-American. Nothing else. That is what I did for law school and am in at my school of choice.

Hispanic and even some Asian options are listed out by ethnicity.  The same is not done for non-Hispanic people of African descent.

But this is the United States and this country is not necessarily known for ethnic consciousness...
Title: Re: Black LSAT statistics
Post by: 1654134681665465 on March 31, 2007, 11:41:01 PM
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But this is the United States and this country is not necessarily known for ethnic consciousness...

Last time I checked there weren't any boxes that specifically mentioned my exact make up of European decent-including a drop or two of American Indian blood.  I guess you are right, America is so inconsiderate.