Law School Discussion

Deciding Where to Go => Choosing the Right Law School => Topic started by: Johnny Stuffs His Mouth on December 07, 2006, 03:09:08 PM

Title: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: Johnny Stuffs His Mouth on December 07, 2006, 03:09:08 PM
Are the US News Rankings a fair indicator of the best schools to become a corporate whore from? For example, Yale from what I gather is a great place to go for clerkships and stuff like that, but are they also number 1 for BIGLAW? Is there a site (or thread, I'll admit, I'm too lazy to search... I'm a paralegal, it's in my blood) that is fairly reputable that lists this ranking? Thanks, LSD!
Title: Re: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: A. on December 07, 2006, 04:03:04 PM
Law firms are probably the biggest prestige whores of all.  So, yes, I think USNWR should generally give you a good idea of the best schools from which to get BIGLAW.  However, keep in mind coast bias: You might have a slightly easier time getting a job in NYC or DC coming from Stanford than from Harvard, due to supply and demand.
Title: Re: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: db2ur on December 07, 2006, 04:08:16 PM
Are the US News Rankings a fair indicator of the best schools to become a corporate whore from? For example, Yale from what I gather is a great place to go for clerkships and stuff like that, but are they also number 1 for BIGLAW? Is there a site (or thread, I'll admit, I'm too lazy to search... I'm a paralegal, it's in my blood) that is fairly reputable that lists this ranking? Thanks, LSD!

Concur w/ Alcibades.  Firms hew the closest to USNWR.  For other vocations and interests, the rankings are a little different, but USNWR gets things about right, too.  For example, academe: based on USNWR, Yale is where it should be, Chicago is underrated, and NYU is overrated.
Title: Re: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: miller on January 26, 2007, 09:43:29 PM

The best schools for biglaw are the following:
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1168423325385
Title: Re: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: Denny Crane on January 26, 2007, 10:22:16 PM
BIGWHAT?
Title: Re: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: challandler on January 27, 2007, 06:47:51 AM

The best schools for biglaw are the following:
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1168423325385

I hate this article precicely because students like miller think it represents.  There are several flaws in taking it as a ranking.  One has already been pointed out - the students at elite schools who choose not to work in firms are not doing so becuase they are unable to get a job with one.  That makes it unfair to compare Yale, where less than 50% of grads go the firm route immediately, with Columbia, where more thn 75% of grads choose the firm path.  Second, the article treats placement at any of the 250 largest firms as equal.  Some firms are simply more desireable to most students, and, if I were interested in biglaw, I would want a ranking that accounted for the quality/prestige of the firms where grads are working.  Finally, the size of the firm is based on the number of associates nationally.  Most national firms have an office in three or four major cities.  As a result, these rankings are going to have a bias towards graduates from law schools in major cities.  This is a little misleading.  We can easily imagine a graduate of Minnesota working at an office in Minneapolis that has as many attorneys and pays as much as the NYC offices of national firms, but which doesn't count among the 250 largest law firms becuase it is one of two offices for that firm, rather than one of 8 for the NYC firm. 
Title: Re: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: Denny Crane on January 27, 2007, 07:56:26 AM
Vapid, how did you do this past semester if you don't mind me asking?
Title: Re: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: challandler on January 27, 2007, 09:41:53 AM
Vapid, how did you do this past semester if you don't mind me asking?

I'm still waiting on a grade, which will put the other grades in context.  Also, the first two only came in last night, so I'm going to talk to my friends before I say anything on here that they'd prefer not to know.  If you're really interested, I guess you can PM me on Monday (which is when I think the last one should be in).
Title: Re: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: challandler on January 27, 2007, 12:11:14 PM
Vapid, how did you do this past semester if you don't mind me asking?

I'm still waiting on a grade, which will put the other grades in context.  Also, the first two only came in last night, so I'm going to talk to my friends before I say anything on here that they'd prefer not to know.  If you're really interested, I guess you can PM me on Monday (which is when I think the last one should be in).

lol.  two A's, eh?

Nope.  But nice try. ;)
Title: Re: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: BonesMcJones on January 27, 2007, 12:14:32 PM

The best schools for biglaw are the following:
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1168423325385

I hate this article precicely because students like miller think it represents.  There are several flaws in taking it as a ranking.  One has already been pointed out - the students at elite schools who choose not to work in firms are not doing so becuase they are unable to get a job with one.  That makes it unfair to compare Yale, where less than 50% of grads go the firm route immediately, with Columbia, where more thn 75% of grads choose the firm path.  Second, the article treats placement at any of the 250 largest firms as equal.  Some firms are simply more desireable to most students, and, if I were interested in biglaw, I would want a ranking that accounted for the quality/prestige of the firms where grads are working.  Finally, the size of the firm is based on the number of associates nationally.  Most national firms have an office in three or four major cities.  As a result, these rankings are going to have a bias towards graduates from law schools in major cities.  This is a little misleading.  We can easily imagine a graduate of Minnesota working at an office in Minneapolis that has as many attorneys and pays as much as the NYC offices of national firms, but which doesn't count among the 250 largest law firms becuase it is one of two offices for that firm, rather than one of 8 for the NYC firm. 

I think the problem is people misinterpret what the list means.  All NLJ is reporting is where top firms get their attorneys.  It does not claim to represent a school's ability to place students. 
Title: Re: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: challandler on January 27, 2007, 02:12:10 PM
A-'s?

Your new avatar is frightening now, btw.

I got one grade higher than I expected and one exactly as I expected.  I like the new (temporary) avatar becuase it can be interpreted in so many ways.  Is he frighteningly happy?  Is he trying to mask his obvious rage with a smile?  Has he simply done so poorly that evil tactics formerly beneath him are now the only thing on his mind?  Or did he do so well that he's grown to despise the stupidity of his classmates and is now unabashedly gunning?
Title: Re: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: Denny Crane on January 27, 2007, 04:17:46 PM
Or did he do so well that he's grown to despise the stupidity of his classmates and is now unabashedly gunning?

TITCR
Title: Re: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: ..... on February 02, 2007, 09:27:23 PM

The best schools for biglaw are the following:
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1168423325385

I hate this article precicely because students like miller think it represents.  There are several flaws in taking it as a ranking.  One has already been pointed out - the students at elite schools who choose not to work in firms are not doing so becuase they are unable to get a job with one.  That makes it unfair to compare Yale, where less than 50% of grads go the firm route immediately, with Columbia, where more thn 75% of grads choose the firm path.  Second, the article treats placement at any of the 250 largest firms as equal.  Some firms are simply more desireable to most students, and, if I were interested in biglaw, I would want a ranking that accounted for the quality/prestige of the firms where grads are working.  Finally, the size of the firm is based on the number of associates nationally.  Most national firms have an office in three or four major cities.  As a result, these rankings are going to have a bias towards graduates from law schools in major cities.  This is a little misleading.  We can easily imagine a graduate of Minnesota working at an office in Minneapolis that has as many attorneys and pays as much as the NYC offices of national firms, but which doesn't count among the 250 largest law firms becuase it is one of two offices for that firm, rather than one of 8 for the NYC firm. 

I second that emotion.
Title: Re: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: bamf on July 14, 2007, 01:54:53 PM
lol thank you for moving this to the top, this is such a n00b post from JSHM
Title: Re: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: n/a on July 14, 2007, 06:32:16 PM
sweet bump
Title: Re: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: Zenith Electronics Corp. on July 18, 2007, 07:13:29 AM
this thread is approved.
Title: Re: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: ě on July 18, 2007, 10:12:14 AM
Law firms are probably the biggest prestige whores of all.  So, yes, I think USNWR should generally give you a good idea of the best schools from which to get BIGLAW.  However, keep in mind coast bias: You might have a slightly easier time getting a job in NYC or DC coming from Stanford than from Harvard, due to supply and demand.

Having recently had a talk with a lawyer at Wachtell that was involved in interviewing candidates he admitted that they gave a very minor (and he emphasised very minor) boost to candidates from Harvard and Yale (the guy in question is a Harvard UG, YLS grad so figures), and Stanford, Columbia, NYU and Chicago were collectively ranked as the second tier for them. To what degree this translates to other law firms, I know nothing about.
Title: Re: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: ě on July 18, 2007, 03:02:51 PM
Credit goes where credit's due; Columbia totally owns the V100 market. That may be self-selection, it may not - impossible to find out. But no other school, HYS included, places anywhere near as many graduates in V100 firms as CLS does.
Title: Re: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: ě on July 18, 2007, 03:38:26 PM
Credit goes where credit's due; Columbia totally owns the V100 market. That may be self-selection, it may not - impossible to find out. But no other school, HYS included, places anywhere near as many graduates in V100 firms as CLS does.


Quote
This is clearly self-selection -- no one really believes that CLS is preferred over HYS by biglaw hiring partners (though it's certainly not far behind).

I'm not as certain about this as you are.

Quote
However, this does raise an important point: If you want biglaw, and don't get into a top school, make sure you attend a respected program in a major urban area.  That's where both the large firms and your alumni base will be.

This I agree more with :) And I didn't necessarily disagree with with the previous point either. Although, I don't see it as automatic that HYS goes before CLS in BigLaw.
Title: Re: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: ě on July 18, 2007, 04:14:53 PM
Yeah, that is a point, but on the other hand Columbia has an explicit 'corporate' focus which also leads to them attracting the best faculty in that business. HYS is better overall, no doubt, but I got a feeling there's some specialization love for CLS, dunno. I'm not going to either of those schools, so makes no difference to me either.

That being said, I think 99% of the graduates from any of the top 6 schools can pretty much pick the type of job they want - even if they may not be able to pick the firm.
Title: Re: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: miller on July 18, 2007, 08:23:25 PM


I'm not as certain about this as you are.



This I agree more with :) And I didn't necessarily disagree with with the previous point either. Although, I don't see it as automatic that HYS goes before CLS in BigLaw.


I don't think there's a major difference between CLS (and Chicago) and HYS when it comes to biglaw placement.

However, HYS are generally somewhat more selective than other top schools, especially in the area of GPA and soft factors.  Also, they consistently get better reputation ratings in USNews.  It would therefore make sense for most firms to have at least a small preference for HYS grads. 

However, it's not worth arguing about it (further) for me, and I honestly don't know conclusively.

There is a large difference on the V10 front.  As far as  placement at Big firms, the only difference is really on the coasts, and that difference is relatively minimal.  CCN places very well on both coasts, but HYS will get you a job at a V25 anywhere. The difference comes in Clerking and in academia, which is mostly a prestige aspect.  If you want to practice law at a large firm, you will be fine coming from CCN.  However, if you are obsessed with prestige OR want to either clerk with a top judge in a top market or want to teach, HYS will  be more beneficial  than many board indicate.  I am a law student who has interviewed in over fifteen cities, and I can legitimately say that the difference comes in the clerking.  If you want to clerk on most compettive markets, say NY or Cali, HYS will give you many more options than CCN.  However, given the recent increase in starting salaries, clerking is starting to diminish in desire.  A post on this board could easily be dedicated to whether it is worth it to clerk in today's market, given the opportunity cost.  Its a very interesting discussion.  If you want to work in corporate law, I would seriously think about taking a CCN scholarship over HYS becuase the cost is substantial in the market today.  If you want to work  in BIGLAW and don't really care about clerking or academia,  I seriously would consider taking a scholarship at CCN.  Just an FYI.  Out of  any of the top 5 schools though, you shouldn't really worry about job prospects, unless you are committed to Watchell. The rest of the firms will go very deep into the class at the T5.
Title: Re: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: ě on July 19, 2007, 03:03:17 PM
Well, Wachtell and I assume Cravath to some degree will only pick top of the class, no matter what school you attend. I'm pretty sure you're right in what you're saying. As for getting V25 jobs anywhere, there's only 4 V25 firms on the west coast in total, everything else is Chicago and eastwards so I wouldn't worry too much about that :)

Just out of curiosity, why did you interview in 15 cities? No preference at all where you want to work?
Title: Re: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: james_pku on July 30, 2007, 07:47:32 AM
By the way, would anyone explain why Vanderbilt students perform so well in getting into Biglaws (even better than some of the top14 law schools)?
Thanks a lot.
Title: Re: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: GOB on July 30, 2007, 04:22:57 PM
As for getting V25 jobs anywhere, there's only 4 V25 firms on the west coast in total

There are only four V25 firms with their main offices in West Coast cities, but many V25 firms have LA/SF/SD/SV/OC offices.
Title: Re: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: keelee on July 30, 2007, 07:48:31 PM
By the way, would anyone explain why Vanderbilt students perform so well in getting into Biglaws (even better than some of the top14 law schools)?
Thanks a lot.


As noted, Biglaw largely depends on ratings/reputation, and Vandy is just outside of the T14 in rep/ratings, so it's obviously going to do pretty well.

However, I wouldn't say it does better than any T14's -- do you have an example?

Also, Vandy's placement is more regional than the T14's, although it does have a semi-national rep, just like UCLA, UT, USC, GW, etc.

Vandy's placement is not regional at all. It probably has the best national reach of any school outside of the T14. Only 46% of their students stayed in the Southern US from the Class of 2006. They place well not only in the South, but in LA, DC, and NYC.

T14 is obviously the best for BigLaw, but Vandy, UCLA, GW, USC, Fordham, and Texas all offer great BigLaw opportunities that aren't has geographically limiting as people want to believe (especially at Vandy and Texas).
Title: Re: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: bamf on July 30, 2007, 08:02:54 PM

 Vandy, UCLA, GW, USC, Fordham, and Texas all offer great BigLaw opportunities that aren't has geographically limiting as people want to believe (especially at Vandy and Texas).

Fordham?  lolz
Title: Re: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: Denny Crane on July 30, 2007, 08:06:46 PM

 Vandy, UCLA, GW, USC, Fordham, and Texas all offer great BigLaw opportunities that aren't has geographically limiting as people want to believe (especially at Vandy and Texas).

Fordham?  lolz

Fordham grads are well represented in almost all top Biglaw firms in New York.
Title: Re: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: bamf on July 30, 2007, 08:12:00 PM
Oh I know, but the post I was questioning stated that Fordham was not geographically limiting ... Fordham does not have the "approaching-national" rep of Vandy or UCLA.  This is why Fordham has traditionally been in the 30s.
Title: Re: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: james_pku on July 30, 2007, 08:33:25 PM
By the way, would anyone explain why Vanderbilt students perform so well in getting into Biglaws (even better than some of the top14 law schools)?
Thanks a lot.


As noted, Biglaw largely depends on ratings/reputation, and Vandy is just outside of the T14 in rep/ratings, so it's obviously going to do pretty well.

However, I wouldn't say it does better than any T14's -- do you have an example?

Also, Vandy's placement is more regional than the T14's, although it does have a semi-national rep, just like UCLA, UT, USC, GW, etc.
vandy is said to be higher than yale in the NLJ ranking.
Title: Re: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on July 30, 2007, 08:45:32 PM
By the way, would anyone explain why Vanderbilt students perform so well in getting into Biglaws (even better than some of the top14 law schools)?
Thanks a lot.


As noted, Biglaw largely depends on ratings/reputation, and Vandy is just outside of the T14 in rep/ratings, so it's obviously going to do pretty well.

However, I wouldn't say it does better than any T14's -- do you have an example?

Also, Vandy's placement is more regional than the T14's, although it does have a semi-national rep, just like UCLA, UT, USC, GW, etc.
vandy is said to be higher than yale in the NLJ ranking.

that means nothing since a good proportion of YLS grades take clerkships and head for academia
Title: Re: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: keelee on July 30, 2007, 09:13:03 PM
Oh I know, but the post I was questioning stated that Fordham was not geographically limiting ... Fordham does not have the "approaching-national" rep of Vandy or UCLA.  This is why Fordham has traditionally been in the 30s.

I said not "as geographically limiting as people want to believe", which it isn't. No doubt the most regional of those schools, but I bet you Fordham could get you to DC or Miami with some effort and good grades.
Title: Re: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: bamf on July 31, 2007, 06:35:47 AM
Oh I know, but the post I was questioning stated that Fordham was not geographically limiting ... Fordham does not have the "approaching-national" rep of Vandy or UCLA.  This is why Fordham has traditionally been in the 30s.

I said not "as geographically limiting as people want to believe", which it isn't. No doubt the most regional of those schools, but I bet you Fordham could get you to DC or Miami with some effort and good grades.

you can say this of any school in T1 ... but the national status of a school is judged more on actual placement and OCI.  88% of Fordham grads stay in the Mid Atlantic.

in the same vein, something a little more useful than your guesswork:
http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leiter/2006/02/national_and_re.html
Title: Re: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: keelee on July 31, 2007, 12:20:30 PM
Oh I know, but the post I was questioning stated that Fordham was not geographically limiting ... Fordham does not have the "approaching-national" rep of Vandy or UCLA.  This is why Fordham has traditionally been in the 30s.

I said not "as geographically limiting as people want to believe", which it isn't. No doubt the most regional of those schools, but I bet you Fordham could get you to DC or Miami with some effort and good grades.

you can say this of any school in T1 ... but the national status of a school is judged more on actual placement and OCI.  88% of Fordham grads stay in the Mid Atlantic.

in the same vein, something a little more useful than your guesswork:
http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leiter/2006/02/national_and_re.html


None of that takes self-selection into account. If you go to Fordham, you go to stay in NYC.

Self-selection is a reason I feel that many schools have a lot more reach than people give them credit for.
Title: Re: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: yykm on August 01, 2007, 03:50:13 PM
Being a national school outside t14 has much more to deal with name appeal across the country than usnews rankings.  Eg, GW, BC, and ND are all more national than say Fordham, W&L, and UMinn.  Part of this has to do with athletics.  The other part is whethe rthe school comes off as prestigious when people hear the name.  Outside of the NE, few people say, "Fordham, that's impressive" or something along those lines.  This could be due to differences in the perceived quality of ug at each school as well.  Nevertheless, private schools tend to be more national than publics since their students tend to come from all over and can spread the name when they return home.  The privates that have done this longer and to a greater extent, now claim a more national stake.
Title: Re: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: yiplong on August 02, 2007, 08:32:26 AM
No one think Fordham is prestigious, not even in NYC.  Fordham has virtually no name recognition outside of the immidiate NYC metro area, even less than some mediocre state school because they bear the name of the state. 
Title: Re: Best schools for BIGLAW?
Post by: bamf on August 04, 2007, 06:55:55 PM
so what are some non-T14 schools that are nationally ranked?

i am guessing Fordham isn't considering it's main alumnus is in NYC. i think from i've heard and looking into the USNews, it seems Vandy is pretty well represented. USC and UCLA seem to be regional only in CA (i may be wrong). and Texas is regional in Texas and south. Vandy, Emory, GW, Notre Dame, American, Tulane seem to be the most nationally diverse schools in T1. does anyone else know of any other school that is like this or is my understanding of these schools wrong?

uhhh yeah this is a little skewed ... especially the American and Tulane parts ... Did I already toss in the Leiter link to the numbers of OCIing firms?  Look at the number of firms OCIing at each school, see if you can find the number of states represented in those firms, then look at the number of states where grads were placed and the percentages of grads who went to different regions ... all those numbers will start to give you a decent idea of the national placement of a certain school.  I will just say that BU and BC probably both outrank your whole list of "most nationally diverse" except for vandy and maybe GW.