Law School Discussion

Deciding Where to Go => Choosing the Right Law School => Topic started by: ksigman123 on October 22, 2006, 02:08:40 AM

Title: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: ksigman123 on October 22, 2006, 02:08:40 AM
I think UF will drop...LSAT average FELL to a 159...from a 161/2 last year...
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: Ever on October 22, 2006, 02:00:10 PM
Tulane will drop ever so slightly I think. SMU might as well. Houston will continue downward as will Baylor.
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: bass on October 23, 2006, 11:37:23 PM
stanford, columbia, stanford, duke, stanford, ucla.  Oh, and stanford.
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: H4CS on October 24, 2006, 12:28:34 AM
stanford, columbia, stanford, duke, stanford, ucla.  Oh, and stanford.

Amazingly, I agree with all of these, but you forgot Stanford and Penn.
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: my 2 cents on October 25, 2006, 11:13:45 AM
75th Percentile LSAT: 161
Median LSAT: 159
25th Percentile LSAT: 155

UF dropping is a safe bet. Going to a 400 person class is going to hurt the school tremendously. No way they ever get back up to numbers from a 200 person class
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: jd2bee on October 25, 2006, 11:16:28 AM
harvard.

Hey, you aren't allowed to bag on Harvard anymore. We know you sold out!

shhhhhh.  I only sell out after tony stock calls me.

Toby :)
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: Ever on October 25, 2006, 11:20:46 AM
So we have the obvious drops (Columbia, Penn, Standford) what about the Thomas Cooley's; the schools on the clear upswing?


What would you do if TC ended up in tier 2 this next cycle?
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: jamesbond on October 26, 2006, 07:25:34 AM
Stanford stays above Harvard, but NYU falls one spot to tie with Chicago.  Penn stays the same.  Michigan falls one spot. 
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: bamf on December 23, 2006, 04:34:18 PM
So we have the obvious drops (Columbia, Penn, Standford) what about the Thomas Cooley's; the schools on the clear upswing?


What would you do if TC ended up in tier 2 this next cycle?

maybe they would stop publishing their own rankings?
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: MisterManager on December 23, 2006, 04:50:42 PM
oh man...i chose indiana for more than just their ranking, but id be pissed off if they stopped being tier 1. I don't see them dropping from 37 to 51 tho.
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on December 23, 2006, 05:00:53 PM
Stanford stays above Harvard, but NYU falls one spot to tie with Chicago.  Penn stays the same.  Michigan falls one spot.

hope not  :-[
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: EEtoJD on December 26, 2006, 01:57:14 PM
Why do people think CLS will fall? Who would go above them, Chicago? I can see CLS and Chi tying, but I doubt it. Prob. NYU and Chi tie, the rest of the T6 stay the same.

But who the @#!* knows, really?
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: EEtoJD on December 26, 2006, 03:31:42 PM

NYU looks like their 25th LSAT fell to 167.



Where'd you find this?
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: algernon on December 26, 2006, 05:08:29 PM
I think UF will drop...LSAT average FELL to a 159...from a 161/2 last year...

HI, Im curious to know where you got this info?
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: EEtoJD on December 26, 2006, 05:28:20 PM
http://www.law.nyu.edu/depts/admissions/faq/jd.html#q9 (http://www.law.nyu.edu/depts/admissions/faq/jd.html#q9)

If that is this most recent cycle it would mean a drop of a point.

Thanks. Interesting, but I think maybe this is from two cycles ago. We'll see...
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: algernon on December 27, 2006, 09:18:55 PM
75th Percentile LSAT: 161
Median LSAT: 159
25th Percentile LSAT: 155

UF dropping is a safe bet. Going to a 400 person class is going to hurt the school tremendously. No way they ever get back up to numbers from a 200 person class

I remember hearing that UF switched to fall only, but I have not heard anything about them sdropping their requirements.  How do you know they dropped?
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: theprofessor on December 30, 2006, 10:59:57 AM
http://www.law.nyu.edu/depts/admissions/faq/jd.html#q9 (http://www.law.nyu.edu/depts/admissions/faq/jd.html#q9)

If that is this most recent cycle it would mean a drop of a point.

Thanks. Interesting, but I think maybe this is from two cycles ago. We'll see...

I think you are right. NYU lists the 25th for the Fall 2006 entering class as 168 here: http://www.law.nyu.edu/depts/admissions/info/jd/classprofile.html
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: Captain on January 06, 2007, 08:54:28 PM
Tulane will drop ever so slightly I think. SMU might as well. Houston will continue downward as will Baylor.

Tulane will have a drop once their post-katrina numbers come in, but I don't know if it is going to be big.
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: weezer999 on January 10, 2007, 11:15:04 AM
When will the rankings come out, or when do they usually come out?
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: bamf on January 10, 2007, 12:27:16 PM
When will the rankings come out, or when do they usually come out?

End of March-ish
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: Captain on January 10, 2007, 11:20:10 PM
When will the rankings come out, or when do they usually come out?

End of March-ish

Just in time to affect all of our final decisions then. Awesome.

PS -- UPenn/GW, I don't care where you rank. Seriously. Let me in, I'm knocking and while it is unseasonably warm out, its still rude for you to not answer the door.
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: HeckBoy on January 28, 2007, 05:56:34 PM
Tulane will drop ever so slightly I think. SMU might as well. Houston will continue downward as will Baylor.

what are we basing these drops on? since i applied to SMU & Houston and they're among my front runners, i'm wondering what implications if any they'll have on my admission/decision possibilities
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: Captain on January 29, 2007, 10:13:12 AM
Tulane will drop ever so slightly I think. SMU might as well. Houston will continue downward as will Baylor.

what are we basing these drops on? since i applied to SMU & Houston and they're among my front runners, i'm wondering what implications if any they'll have on my admission/decision possibilities

Tulane's drop is based on the hurricane stuff. The new rankings will be based on the first post-hurricane numbers for them. They'll surely recover again, but they HAD TO have taken a hit.
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: prelaw200 on January 29, 2007, 10:51:49 AM
I'm interested to see if GW will fall back into the 20+ range.  It is a little strange that they have not made last years admission stats avaialable on their website.
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: HeckBoy on January 29, 2007, 04:21:50 PM
so what's really gonna be causing these rankings shake-ups? higher/lower LSAT/GPA stats? does this mean certain schools will be accepting lower stat'd applicants? or simply less higher stat'd people will enroll in some of them?
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: bamf on January 29, 2007, 04:36:39 PM
I think GW will stay.  I'm more interested to see a change at WUSTL.
I'd also like it if BC would pass BU again.
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: General2010 on January 29, 2007, 04:44:57 PM
Predictions for Texas? If I remember correctly, the 25th percentile GPA was lower on the 2006 class profile than in past years.
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: Boss on January 29, 2007, 04:48:46 PM
There were quite a few schools who dropped their LSAT/GPA from previous years.  Did any school note an increase?
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: theprofessor on January 30, 2007, 04:52:51 AM
Northwestern, Chicago, Columbia, and Penn all showed an increase for this year's incoming class. This list is not meant to be complete; those are just the ones I know off the top of my head.
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: prelaw200 on January 30, 2007, 07:59:29 AM
A drop or increase will only affect the rankings if the median (now calculated by averaging the 75th and 25th percentiles) changes, which usually takes a pretty big shift.

I know USC and Vandy's 25th percentiles went up, and Fordham's went down but I think their medians remained the same.

Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: flyaway on January 30, 2007, 09:56:59 AM
I forget what counts in the rankings.  Is it only the median?  Or is it the 25th/75th?

Duke 2005:
165/167/169
3.54/3.7/3.86
Duke 2006:
165/168/169 (median up)
3.66/3.78/3.85 (25th and median up, 75th slightly down)

Michigan 2005:
166/168/169
3.45/3.62/3.78
Michigan 2006:
166/168/170 (75th up)
3.57/3.66/3.8 (all up)

Virginia 2005:
167/169/171
3.53/3.68/3.83
Virginia 2006:
167/169/171 (identical)
3.49/3.68/3.82 (25th and 75th a little down)
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: prelaw200 on January 30, 2007, 10:26:42 AM
I forget what counts in the rankings.  Is it only the median?  Or is it the 25th/75th?

Its only the median

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/grad/rankings/about/07law_meth_brief.php
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: flyaway on January 30, 2007, 10:49:36 AM
So in that case, I guess it means Duke GPA and LSAT are up, Michigan GPA is up, and Virginia both are identical.
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: Captain on January 30, 2007, 12:16:09 PM
The biggest factor though is the peer and practitioner survey results, which I doubt will change much.
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: prelaw200 on January 30, 2007, 12:18:28 PM
that is the biggest factor, but the schools are so closely ranked (see how many ties there are) that even a small change in medians or something as arbitrary as expenditures per student can cause a school to jump several spots.
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: bamf on January 30, 2007, 03:44:35 PM
A drop or increase will only affect the rankings if the median (now calculated by averaging the 75th and 25th percentiles) changes, which usually takes a pretty big shift.

I know USC and Vandy's 25th percentiles went up, and Fordham's went down but I think their medians remained the same.



is this new this year or something?
if this is a new policy WUSTL is screwed because their LSAT is something like 161-166-167.  Their averaged median vs their actual median would probably make a big difference.
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: JTcc on January 30, 2007, 04:06:14 PM
I'm not a big fan of giving Boalt, Virginia and Michigan the three-way "public-schools-are-special-too" 8 spot.  As lawyers, are we not supposed to have discriminating minds?

Any thoughts on how those might shake down if the rankings were an actual hierarchy instead of an exercise in placating entrenched interests at each institution?
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: bamf on January 30, 2007, 04:09:50 PM
I'm not a big fan of giving Boalt, Virginia and Michigan the three-way "public-schools-are-special-too" 8 spot.  As lawyers, are we not supposed to have discriminating minds?

Any thoughts on how those might shake down if the rankings were an actual hierarchy instead of an exercise in placating entrenched interests at each institution?

no
because everyone will give you a different answer.
because rankings are BS.
they are all great schools.
they all have some great and unique programs.
pick based on the professors and the clinics and the journals, not the f-ing rankings.
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: JTcc on January 30, 2007, 04:13:49 PM
My gripe has nothing to do with choosing where I will attend.

If you are going to go through the motions of creating a quantifiable evaluative system, why not trust it and rank the schools accordingly?

The fact that they are tied in the 8-9-10 slot has nothing to do with them all being great schools (which they are).  It has to do with placing at least three PUBLIC schools in the top 10.  If we had 12 fingers, they'd be 10-11-12!
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: prelaw200 on January 30, 2007, 04:14:54 PM
My gripe has nothing to do with choosing where I will attend.

If you are going to go through the motions of creating a quantifiable evaluative system, why not trust it and rank the schools accordingly?

The fact that they are tied in the 8-9-10 slot has nothing to do with them all being great schools (which they are).  It has to do with placing at least three PUBLIC schools in the top 10!

ITS A CONSPIRACY!!!!!
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: prelaw200 on January 30, 2007, 04:18:13 PM
My gripe has nothing to do with choosing where I will attend.

If you are going to go through the motions of creating a quantifiable evaluative system, why not trust it and rank the schools accordingly?

The fact that they are tied in the 8-9-10 slot has nothing to do with them all being great schools (which they are).  It has to do with placing at least three PUBLIC schools in the top 10!

But more seriously, Boalt has consistently been out of the top 10, and was as low as 13 in 2004.

http://prelawhandbook.com/law_school_rankings__1987_1999

http://prelawhandbook.com/law_school_rankings__2000_present

hth
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: JTcc on January 30, 2007, 04:21:19 PM
You make a good point.  Michigan has fallen to this position, while Boalt has risen.  For this year's purposes, however, calling the three public schools in the top ten a wash is a politically correct cop out.
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: JTcc on January 30, 2007, 05:18:01 PM
Perhaps I am overestimating the extent to which the outcome is engineered; maybe the formula simply produces that outcome. 

Examine 2002 when these same three schools and Penn were in an unwieldy four-way tie.  I consider it PC that USNews, in order to avoid upsetting the school that happened to be a modicum shy of the others by placing it last amongst them, deems their proximity a defacto tie.  Especially when you are discussing this tier of schools, finding grounds for differentiation should be a necessity.

My argument, as I say, rests upon the premise that you are going to employ rankings as a tool at all.  If it's there for us to use, make it as precise as possible.  If Boalt is 10th and Michigan is 8th, say so.     
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: JTcc on January 30, 2007, 05:24:40 PM
Pourquoi?

Even the current rankings demonstrate significantly wider ties at the lower levels.
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: JTcc on January 30, 2007, 05:32:35 PM
It's a good thing for the schools themselves, no question.  They ALL get to say "we are the highest ranked public law school in the country."

It is not, however, good for us if we are intended to place any credence in these rankings.
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: JTcc on January 30, 2007, 05:40:17 PM
No debate is ever finished, but I do see the merit in admitting your own system's faults.  I just want my $14.95 back if they're afraid to tell me whether they think I should go to Michigan or UVA (if they accept me).
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: flyaway on January 30, 2007, 05:42:01 PM
You know... if it really appears too close to call... that is, if the difference is so neglibile that to distinguish would seem arbitrary... wouldn't you rather see a tie?

It's just like in judged sports... I hate tiebreakers for the sake of tiebreakers.  If the athletes did equally well, why not let each of them stand on the top of the podium?
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: JTcc on January 30, 2007, 05:47:05 PM
I prefer a system that eliminates the tie.  Breaking a really close tie may be MORE arbitrary, but if there is a justification, it's not meaningless.  Give me the number along with the ranking.  They're not all 78's.  One is a 77.9, one is a 78.2, etc.

The reason they won't take us out to the next decimal place is that the Dean of  77.6 wants his "top public" tagline.

If I'm going to attend UPenn's 79 over UVA's 78, maybe I would attend Michigan's 78.4 over Boalt's 77.6.
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: flyaway on January 31, 2007, 05:40:18 AM
I feel that in a system that is not truly scientific, there can be small numeric differences that are insignificant.  They don't really represent superiority of one over the other.  I would rather see these schools grouped together than have one purported to be better than the other.

Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: i41m on February 01, 2007, 10:50:42 PM
I prefer a system that eliminates the tie.  Breaking a really close tie may be MORE arbitrary, but if there is a justification, it's not meaningless.  Give me the number along with the ranking.  They're not all 78's.  One is a 77.9, one is a 78.2, etc.

The reason they won't take us out to the next decimal place is that the Dean of  77.6 wants his "top public" tagline.

If I'm going to attend UPenn's 79 over UVA's 78, maybe I would attend Michigan's 78.4 over Boalt's 77.6.

I think you're conspiracy theory here is unfounded. What makes you think that these deans have any pull with usnews, especially since they've all denounced the rankings (http://www.lsac.org/LSAC.asp?url=lsac/deans-speak-out-rankings.asp)? And why would one dean have more pull than another?

The resolution of the rankings are already stretched beyond their limits (see Baylor's 7 slot jump by using a different method of reporting) but just because some rankings are differentiated to an absurd degree (penn vs uva) that doesn't justify making even more silly differentiations.

US News' rankings would probably be more ethically presented if they did more grouping (not less). Perhaps something similar to Leiter's rankings for faculty placement: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2006job_teaching.shtml
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: prelaw200 on February 02, 2007, 07:56:42 AM
I prefer a system that eliminates the tie.  Breaking a really close tie may be MORE arbitrary, but if there is a justification, it's not meaningless.  Give me the number along with the ranking.  They're not all 78's.  One is a 77.9, one is a 78.2, etc.

The reason they won't take us out to the next decimal place is that the Dean of  77.6 wants his "top public" tagline.

If I'm going to attend UPenn's 79 over UVA's 78, maybe I would attend Michigan's 78.4 over Boalt's 77.6.

??

US News treats all decimal points the same and rounds for every school, public and private.  This is a problem with their system as a whole but to say it favors the publics schools in particular is absolutely wrong. 

Duke and NU were tied at 10 in 2004; Duke and Cornell were tied at 11 in 2005.  This means nothing.
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: nyugrad06 on February 02, 2007, 08:09:24 AM
when do the new rankings come out?
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: prelaw200 on February 02, 2007, 08:12:58 AM
March
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: ..... on February 02, 2007, 08:57:19 PM
There's going to be a market correction to put Columbia > NYU.

BC gains 3, BU loses 2, GW loses 2.

Let's see if they beat the spread.
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: nyugrad06 on February 02, 2007, 11:56:22 PM
what article was that, somewhere?
Title: Re: Schools that will drop in the 2008 US NEWS rankings...
Post by: juliemccoy on February 03, 2007, 10:37:31 AM
75th Percentile LSAT: 161
Median LSAT: 159
25th Percentile LSAT: 155

UF dropping is a safe bet. Going to a 400 person class is going to hurt the school tremendously. No way they ever get back up to numbers from a 200 person class

That might be enough to drop them out of the top 50. That article written by the UF professor about how he didn't think that a lot of UF grads were prepared to practice law won't help either.

Even if UF drops in the rankings, it will be still regarded in the state of Florida as the best. The USNWR won't change the state reputation of its flagship university or its programs. As has been discussed ad nauseum, regional strengths trump rankings and if you want to be assured that the world will be handed to you on a silver platter, get a 4.0 in UG, cure cancer and rock the LSAT so you can get into a Top 20 school with more plentiful opportunities for national placement.